The trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

[JohnnyMack]

Can someone explain to me why this is a good idea?

I'll take your answer off the air.

[yermom]

why did they try the Nazis?

[AlbqSooner]

President Obama's decision to put Khalid Sheikh Mohammed on trial in New York City along with four others accused of helping destroy the World Trade Center and attack the Pentagon on 9-11 paints a bulls-eye for terrorists right on New York City, their favorite target. Now Obama has identified where the terrorists should focus their energies - on New York City.
His decision to bow to political correctness and not to try Mohammed at a secure military base and to try him in a civilian court, according him all the rights of an American citizen, raises important questions:
Most importantly, is the admissible evidence against Mohammed damning enough to secure a conviction? The evidentiary requirements protecting an American citizen on trial are far stricter than those which would apply to an enemy combatant before a military tribunal. We already watched how the twentieth hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui escaped the death penalty because the evidence the government could use against him in a civilian criminal court was limited by his civil liberties. As a result, the data from his computer, which had not been seized pursuant to the Fourth Amendment, could not be entered into evidence against him. Failing such evidence, the feds had to settle for a life sentence.
Since much of the evidence against Mohammed was gathered through interrogations before which he may not have been read his Miranda rights and during which he may have been water-boarded, one wonders how much of his statement that he was the mastermind of 9-11 is going to be admissible. It could be that he will use the very constitution of the very government he seeks to destroy to protect himself from the death penalty or even life in prison.

The decision to try him in a civilian court also confronts the Department of Justice with a difficult decision on how much of the evidence against Mohammed should be aired publicly. Our anti-terror investigations depend on secrecy and the FBI and Homeland Security agents may not relish having their methods publicized in open court. There is even the possibility that there will be a global backlash in favor of Mohammed as his defense lawyer - paid for by the American taxpayer - will make him appear to be the victim of over-zealous investigators and prosecutors rather than the perpetrator of one of the greatest mass murders in history.

In any event, President Obama is affording the terrorists exactly what they wanted in the first place - a global stage right near New York's theater district. The very goal of terrorism is to attract world-wide attention and, by trying Mohammed in a civilian court in the middle of New York City, President Obama is giving them the stage they want on which to articulate their perceived grievances.

Finally, there is the disturbing question of what will happen if Mohammed and/or his some of his confreres are found to be not guilty. Where will they be released? Will they walk out of the courtroom free to prowl the streets of New York, their transportation having been paid courtesy of the taxpayers? Will they be flown to Afghanistan to resume their plots against our government and our people, again at taxpayer expense?

What Obama should have done was to try Mohammed before a military tribunal, without the full rights of an American citizen (which, of course, he is not) and, after a guilty verdict, executed him. But this president bows before political correctness above all else and he may just have done Mohammed and al Qaeda a big, big favor.

[Octavian]

unfathomable




and pathetic

[delhalew]

Stupidest Fing idea Evar.

Of course, that statement assumes you have the best interests of the American people in mind. If your motivations are not necessarily related to what is best for the citizens of the US...then it makes perfect sense.

[Octavian]

If your motivations are not necessarily related to what is best for the citizens of the US...then it makes perfect sense.



whatever, dude. you're just an un-enlightened, ethnocentric (and xenophobic!!1one) kind of bigot who is somehow proud to be an American.


you monster



what we really need now is to understand and sympathize with those who want to kill us....we need to really to see how it's all actually our fault....and then apologize for being us. that'll fix it!



and soon...without a little luck, you too can call yourself enlightened

[delhalew]

Oops, I forgot my new global citizen, placating the hand that wants to knock my teeth out, hat today.

[Curly Bill]

I think Brack and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were boyhood friends.

In light of that it's understandable the POTUS would cut the guy a break, we'd all do the same. ;)

[Sooner98]

why did they try the Nazis?

Were the Nazis given rights and protections guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, and then tried in a civilian court?

[MR2-Sooner86]

why did they try the Nazis?

I hope you're being sarcastic and not serious.

[Curly Bill]

I hope you're being sarcastic and not serious.

Peeps throw the Nazi thing out there because they think it's a discussion ender in some profound way.

[soonerscuba]

I don't like the idea, but I think the thrust behind the argument is that KSM thinks of himself as a member of a warrior class, and he wants to be put to death by the hands of the American military and die a martyr. Essentially, they are pursuing a forum that runs directly counter to his belief system.

[yermom]

Peeps throw the Nazi thing out there because they think it's a discussion ender in some profound way.

not really. i mean there are similarities in that they committed crimes against humanity, right? they still couldn't just hang them with no process

it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison, obviously

[delhalew]

Nuremberg trials were for the people of the world to gain some satisfaction. They were also military tribunals NOT trials.

The two instances have little to nothing in common.

[yermom]

perhaps i misread the intent of the thread a bit... but yeah i think this is a bit of a gamble

IMO the Bush admin put us in a difficult position here, but this could end up making us look worse if KSM lawyers up and doesn't remain defiant and professes his innocence

hopefully there is more evidence than his waterboarded confession...

[Frozen Sooner]

They were also military tribunals NOT trials.


They were military tribunals constituted to try war criminals. Yes, they were trials. Their charter explicitly stated the actions they were taking were trials.

[delhalew]

Not trials in the sense of what KSM will get in a US federal court. For instance, Nerumberg had judges from each country rather than a jury...you get my point, I'm sure.

[Frozen Sooner]

From your earlier post I wasn't sure that you knew that a military tribunal is a trial court.

But no, they were not civilian trials. It was still a pretty big deal to try them at all.

I have every faith and confidence that our civilian trial system is capable of delivering a conviction on this dude.

[delhalew]

From your earlier post I wasn't sure that you knew that a military tribunal is a trial court.

But no, they were not civilian trials. It was still a pretty big deal to try them at all.

I have every faith and confidence that our civilian trial system is capable of delivering a conviction on this dude.

Why? He was never meant to see civilian trial. Miranda rights, chain of custody for evidence, a confession and certain testimonies obtained by methods not recognized by civilian courts.

Do we even want to get into presenting sensitive intelligence to terrorists? Or the danger posed to the general public? The list of reasons this is dumb arsed idea is endless.

[JohnnyMack]

I don't like the idea, but I think the thrust behind the argument is that KSM thinks of himself as a member of a warrior class, and he wants to be put to death by the hands of the American military and die a martyr. Essentially, they are pursuing a forum that runs directly counter to his belief system.

It's sad that we're electing to attempt to try these terrorists in the court of public opinion rather than to simply usher them through a military tribunal and have them hung or shot.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I have every faith and confidence that our civilian trial system is capable of delivering a conviction on this dude.

http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/original/oj-simpson.jpg

[delhalew]

It's sad that we're electing to attempt to try these terrorists in the court of public opinion rather than to simply usher them through a military tribunal and have them hung or shot.

Precisely. This should have over for the cost of 5.56x45mm nato round a long time ago.

[yermom]

they are already guilty in the "court of public opinion"

[swardboy]

Not that I have a huge place in my heart for the citizens of NYC, but man, the security hang-ups will be a nightmare....and this won't be a short-term event if you know what I mean.

[JohnnyMack]

they are already guilty in the "court of public opinion"

Gee, I wonder why that is?

[yermom]

well, to be honest, the only reason i "know" KSM is guilty is because the government told us he is

[JohnnyMack]

well, to be honest, the only reason i "know" KSM is guilty is because the government told us he is

KSM is a bad man. With a long history of some nefarious ****. But you just keep on thinking that he's the wrong guy in the wrong place and that it's all a tin foil hat conspiracy. Oh and that because he was waterboarded I'm sure he deserves some leniency.

[SCOUT]

Is being accused of perpetrating a massive terror attack on US soil all it takes to receive all the rights and benefits bestowed on a US citizen?

[yermom]

KSM is a bad man. With a long history of some nefarious ****. But you just keep on thinking that he's the wrong guy in the wrong place and that it's all a tin foil hat conspiracy. Oh and that because he was waterboarded I'm sure he deserves some leniency.


i've never said any of that

[Ardmore_Sooner]

http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/original/oj-simpson.jpg

http://www.teamteabag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/0330chewbacca.jpg


Why would a Wookiee -- an eight foot tall Wookiee -- want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

[IBleedCrimson]

Scenario: another captured terrorist agrees to testify against ksm in court.

Does this result in...
A. his entire extended family being tortured and killed in their home countries by terrorists
B. Anyone ever closely aqcuainted with him being tortured and killed by terrorists
C. both A and B

this is one of a trillion reasons why these people can't be tried in civilian court.

[XingTheRubicon]

I don't like the idea, but I think the thrust behind the argument is that KSM thinks of himself as a member of a warrior class, and he wants to be put to death by the hands of the American military and die a martyr. Essentially, they are pursuing a forum that runs directly counter to his belief system.

I'm not sure the executive branch needs steer DOJ/military protocol based on the enemy combatants feelings.

[NormanPride]

How the hell do you get an impartial jury of your peers? Could the defense argue that only Muslims are his peers? And if that's the case, if the judge is stupid enough could sharia law be argued at any point? This case is a massive error in a thousand ways...

[picasso]

Shoulda shot him after they got the info.

[Pogue Mahone]

ABQSooner ought to stop using Orange County Register editorials and passing them off as his work.

If the acquittal happens, they can let him walk out of court onto the streets of Manhattan. Maybe they can announce the time of the exit.

[yermom]

i thought this guy had some good points:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/11/a_lot_of_people_--.php

especially at the end:


What we seem to be forgetting here is that trials are not simply for judging guilt and meting out punishment. We hold trials in public not only because we want a check on the government's behavior but because a key part of the exercise is a public accounting and condemnation of wrongs. Especially in great trials for the worst crimes they are public displays pitting one set of values against another. And I'm troubled by anyone who thinks that this is a confrontation in which we would come out the worse.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I can't see that in any universe or alternate universe that this is a good idea. Why would we want to allow a terrorist a stage for him to vent/spew crap out in a public court, let alone give him his wish of being tried in NYC. Don't get it...

[JohnnyMack]

i thought this guy had some good points:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/11/a_lot_of_people_--.php

especially at the end:

This is effective:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_femhrxbNtS0/SqJkAV7B_eI/AAAAAAAABYQ/rA4OWEK5ujw/s400/Zarqawi_dead_us_govt_photo.jpg

You can't rationalize with this group of people. You can't publicly hold them up and shake your finger at them and condemn their actions.

I would have been just fine if they had accepted his confession in the military tribunal and then shot him and buried him in a shallow grave.

[Veritas]

I would have been just fine if they had accepted his confession in the military tribunal and then shot him and buried him in a shallow grave.
This.

[yermom]

This is effective:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_femhrxbNtS0/SqJkAV7B_eI/AAAAAAAABYQ/rA4OWEK5ujw/s400/Zarqawi_dead_us_govt_photo.jpg

You can't rationalize with this group of people. You can't publicly hold them up and shake your finger at them and condemn their actions.

I would have been just fine if they had accepted his confession in the military tribunal and then shot him and buried him in a shallow grave.

this isn't just about them.

how would we react if some American was picked up off the street in China and accused of god knows what, then tortured until they admitted to whatever crime it was and then was shot and buried in a shallow grave?

[soonerscuba]

I get the feeling most in this thread love the American foundation of law... except when they don't. My initial reaction was to be against this, the more I learn about, I think I can live with this, as we've done 195 times with a 100% conviction rate since 2001. KSM isn't going to walk and shoot laser beams out of his eyes because of the liberals. He's a crazy person, who will be crazy in court, scoffed at, convicted, sentenced and die nameless with a whimper. I would take a lot more stock in this outrage if it literally wasn't pure and unvarnished political football.

[JohnnyMack]

this isn't just about them.

how would we react if some American was picked up off the street in China and accused of god knows what, then tortured until they admitted to whatever crime it was and then was shot and buried in a shallow grave?

Might I suggest you take a look at the 09/11 Commission Report?

This isn't some guy. This is THE guy. This isn't an educated guess on the part of our government.

Again I'm really not interested in discussing the vagaries of international politics, human relations or hurt feelings, I want this guy dead. That's really all there is to it for me.

[JohnnyMack]

I get the feeling most in this thread love the American foundation of law... except when they don't. My initial reaction was to be against this, the more I learn about, I think I can live with this, as we've done 195 times with a 100% conviction rate since 2001. KSM isn't going to walk and shoot laser beams out of his eyes because of the liberals. He's a crazy person, who will be crazy in court, scoffed at, convicted, sentenced and die nameless with a whimper. I would take a lot more stock in this outrage if it literally wasn't pure and unvarnished political football.

What's amusing is that you think that the Obama/Holder decision ISN'T a "pure and unvarnished political football".

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Can we guarantee a conviction? If KSM walks, what does that say for trying in a public court. I am torn between courts and military as we are a nation of laws. The conspiracy he directed occurred and ended on American soil (so court action), however, he was a nonstate entity fomenting war and therefor stateless (military).

I would hate for some numbnut to "feel" KSM wasn't guilty and vote for acquital or no death penalty...

[soonerscuba]

What's amusing is that you think that the Obama/Holder decision ISN'T a "pure and unvarnished political football".The decision to try terrorists in stateside criminal courts? It's been done nearly 200 times in the past decade. Like I said, there didn't seem to be outrage when Bush was doing it. You either take faith in the American legal system or you don't. I would agree with you if this wasn't the first federal rodeo involving foreign terror suspects.

[85Sooner]

During the Blind Sheik trial, the defense aquired the list of how and who we got information from. According to many, the copy of that list went right to bin laden himself. Not good to have your enemy aware of your tendencies and tactics IMO

[JohnnyMack]

The decision to try terrorists in stateside criminal courts? It's been done nearly 200 times in the past decade. Like I said, there didn't seem to be outrage when Bush was doing it. You either take faith in the American legal system or you don't. I would agree with you if this wasn't the first federal rodeo involving foreign terror suspects.

Military tribunals are equally, if not more common. Again though, that's not my point. My point is that he shouldn't be afforded this platform or bully pulpit, he should have a bullet in his head. Or chest. Or both.

[StoopTroup]

I think I'll reserve judgement on this until it actually is over. I think that this is a landmark case and a lot can be learned from it. There might have been other ways to deal with this...but we are sure to have to deal with more of these guys in the future and I think it's better to make them public spectacles to show that we have nothing to hide and we have no problem pulling their plug or holding them in prison until they die.

[AlbqSooner]

ABQSooner ought to stop using Orange County Register editorials and passing them off as his work.

If the acquittal happens, they can let him walk out of court onto the streets of Manhattan. Maybe they can announce the time of the exit.

I read this and thought WTF? Then I realized that when I copied and pasted it did not include the attribution. I did not intend for this to be taken as my work. If you read other postings I have made it will be clear to you that it is not even my style of writing.

Mea Culpa.:O

[GrapevineSooner]

Like Frozen, I've got faith in our justice system that they'll be able to mete out justice.

But I do think it's valid concern to be worried about how we obtained certain pieces of information on KSM's wherabouts so that we could nail this SOB.

It's one thing to divulge how you tricked a dumb Muslim teenager living in Paris, TX into thinking you were helping him bomb a building in Downtown Dallas.

It's quite another to divulge how you caught the mastermind of the deadliest terrorist attack on U.S. soil when you have the opportunity and just cause to try that person in a military tribunal.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm watching the hearing between AG Holder and the Senate. NYC says it'll cost and additional 70 MILLION DOLLARS to hold this trial. NYC isn't going to foot the bill. We will.

[yermom]

that's what? like a week in Afghanistan?

[Harry Beanbag]

that's what? like a week at General Motors?

Yeah, probably.

[yermom]

see, it's a drop in the bucket. i'm sure China doesn't care what we do with their money ;)

[JohnnyMack]

that's what? like a week in Afghanistan?

Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

[picasso]

This is really just to put Ole Bushie once again on the chopping block. Make no mistake, there are folks that still want him sacked.



I say we give KSM what he gave Daniel Pearl.

[StoopTroup]

Have they found him guilty yet. I was thinking it shouldn't take more a a couple of days tops.

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

I think I'll reserve judgement on this until it actually is over. I think that this is a landmark case and a lot can be learned from it. There might have been other ways to deal with this...but we are sure to have to deal with more of these guys in the future and I think it's better to make them public spectacles to show that we have nothing to hide and we have no problem pulling their plug or holding them in prison until they die.

I think in general, this pretty much sums up my opinion. I find it hard to believe the Brits, Germans, and <shudder> the French can try these guys in civil courts and get convictions but we'll manage to screw it up.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

I personally hope he doesn't get the death penalty. That is letting him off too easy. Throw his arse in Rikers or whatever prison for the rest of his life and let him get raped and beat to hell every day until he passes.

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/11/AR2010101102834.html

So we should either stop torturing people, or stop holding trials for these people in civilian courts. You choose. I really don't care.

[GKeeper316]

deleted

[Veritas]

Part of me goes "Yeah, due process."

And then the other part of me goes, "Meh, terrorists are the exception. Put a cap in his ***."

I say we take the Douglas MacArthur approach: slather the corpses of terrorists in pigs blood and bury them.