Recruiting Misfires ?

[fwsooner22]

Some of you follow this closer than I do but obviously we have overestimated a few of these players. I am not speaking of Freshman and Sophomores that's not fair to criticize kids who are yet to develop. However, we have junior and senior receivers who have not lived up to their hype. I totally get the injury bug and its inconveiveable results. It seems to me that there's more than that at play here.

Am I offbase ?

The silverlining for this season is that we finally have a team that is worthy of our play-by-play man. :) :) :) :(

[JLEW1818]

well Manny and Iggy were basically 4 year starters .

[badger]

NP told me of this exchange a few years back:

Bob Stoops: Sorry I didn't recruit you.
Wes Welker: Well, looks like it all worked out for me.
Stoops: Yup.

I have also heard of this exchange:

Jeremy Shockey: I'm going to Miami!
Bob Stoops: You won't ever play there.

THAT was Shockey's take on Bob's recruiting pitch. Here's (probably) what REALLY happened:

Shockey: Homophobic rant, homophobic rant... I'm a d00shebag.
Stoops: Yes you are.
Shockey: So, since you didn't want me when I was an undersized, underdeveloped weakling, I'm gonna go to Miami.
Stoops: Good luck playing there.
Shockey: YOU JUST SUGGESTED THAT I WILL NEVER PLAY THERE! GRRR!!!! (Insert 50 gay slurs here)
Stoops: This guy is insane...


Those (I guess) are the most notable Oklahoma-native talents that OU missed out on under Stoops. Looks like everything worked out for us and them.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

NP told me of this exchange a few years back:

Bob Stoops: Sorry I didn't recruit you.
Wes Welker: Well, looks like it all worked out for me.
Stoops: Yup.

I have also heard of this exchange:

Jeremy Shockey: I'm going to Miami!
Bob Stoops: You won't ever play there.

THAT was Shockey's take on Bob's recruiting pitch. Here's (probably) what REALLY happened:

Shockey: Homophobic rant, homophobic rant... I'm a d00shebag.
Stoops: Yes you are.
Shockey: So, since you didn't want me when I was an undersized, underdeveloped weakling, I'm gonna go to Miami.
Stoops: Good luck playing there.
Shockey: YOU JUST SUGGESTED THAT I WILL NEVER PLAY THERE! GRRR!!!! (Insert 50 gay slurs here)
Stoops: This guy is insane...


Those (I guess) are the most notable Oklahoma-native talents that OU missed out on under Stoops. Looks like everything worked out for us and them.

neither one of these incidents is anywhere near what actually happened. we DID recruit wes welker as a WALKON.

we didn't recruit shockey because the NEO coach told us not too.

[Widescreen]

Don't forget about Bryan Pickryl. How could we have missed out on that talent? ;)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Don't forget about Bryan Pickryl. How could we have missed out on that talent? ;)

heh, probably one of the biggest battle royales on the recruiting forum (which bled over to hornfans). there were several of us who had watched him and birdine play and were like birdine is the better DE prospect. wha? i'll trust rivals on this!! i'm like, the talent is there, but as a TE, not as a DE.

the biggest thing was how he played DE in high school. he was a skinny whirling dervish out there that exposed himself to a lot of awkward shots from blockers. he'd already had shoulder problems in high school and i was like that isn't a good sign for college. sure enough he played as a freshman and pretty much ended his career.

on the offensive side that whirling dervish style paid dividends because he was able to release cleanly and avoid hits from dbs.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

as for the OP, we have chronic decade long problems evaluating and retaining guys at certain positions. the positions that we are consistently strong at are the ones where we hardly ever have attrition and recruit to an archetype.

[NormanPride]

Shocking, coaching attrition leads to poor recruiting in the long run. ;)

EDIT: And I relayed to baj what I heard here. :P

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Shocking, coaching attrition leads to poor recruiting in the long run. ;)

EDIT: And I relayed to baj what I heard here. :P

the data doesn't seem to support that

[NormanPride]

What do you mean? You just said that we've had repeated misses at positions where there is coaching change. You said earlier that new coaches from smaller programs come in and recruit based off of ranking and miss, then recruit based on what they know afterward and do well. If there is continual turnover at the position, then there would be continual misses based off of this logic, yes?

[BoulderSooner79]

I think the meaning is that the data doesn't support that you relayed what you heard to baj.

[NormanPride]

wat

[JLEW1818]

well check our new boy Brennan Clay coming in!! already knows what to do

(clay far left, Finch next to him)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm474/jlew1818/clay.jpg

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Shocking, coaching attrition leads to poor recruiting in the long run. ;)

EDIT: And I relayed to baj what I heard here. :P

coaching attrition doesn't lead to poor recruiting per se. what i was saying was that new coaches who have never evaluated on a top tier big 12 level struggle to learn how to recruit. it isn't the guy that leaves that is the problem, its the experience of the guy you hire to replace him.

OL -> 3 coaches in 10 years
DB -> 3 coaches in 10 years
WR -> 4 coaches in 10 years (norvell 2x)
LB -> 1 coach in 10 years
TE -> 3 coaches in 10 years
DE -> 2 coaches in 10 years
RB -> 1 coach in 10 years
DT -> 1 coach in 10 years

the following positions have been a constant challenge -> OL, DB, LB, WR

we've felt the OL/DB crunch more because there are more bodies needed at the positions. having 2-3 great players over a 4 year span means you always have weak spots. however, LB and WR haven't been any different. we've typically gotten away with it because every 4 years we net a superstar that covers up for the sheer amount of busts.

heh, as an aside, i was trying to figure out where chris wilson had been before taking over at DE and it seems he is now handling special teams.

heh, part 2. our assistant recruiting coordinator is the former head coach at bishop gorman. gah

[NormanPride]

With your posts, I can never tell if we're screwed or not. How much of our offensive recruiting woes have come as a result of changing our offensive philosophy from pure spread (99') to power run ('04) to whatevertheheckitisnow?

[Sooner04]

Well, we were back to a pretty pure form of the spread last year and seemed to do OK. Here are the problems now:

1. Our QB cannot go through his reads.
2. Our RBs are not fast enough to get to the edge.
3. Our O-Line isn't good enough to hold blocks long enough to get guys to the edge.

Why we're still running the same stuff we did last year is mind-boggling. Pack things in, run some quick hitters and take choices away from Jones.

[JLEW1818]

losing Jermaine takes away a lot too

they know we wont run play action

if we do

it sucks

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

2. Our RBs are not fast enough to get to the edge.


our running backs are a huge part of our problem, but speed isn't the reason.

i have no idea what happened to chris brown, but i expected him to come out this year and dominate in terms of yards and carries. but nooooooo, 4 straight runs and he is signalling to come out cause he's tired. its no wonder we can't get any continuity on the OL in run blocking. geez, every running back has tendencies and you tweak your blocks to accomodate. right now we may flip flop backs 3 times on a 12 play drive.

i also have no idea what is going on with our playcalling with our running backs. did anyone else notice brown ripping off runs with that smoke draw iwth murray coming around the other side? we ran it twice for 22 yards and didn't see it for the rest of the game. what in the heck? i'm going to give gundy a pass for now, but if he keeps this crap up he is well on the way to the wussification of our running game.

[BoulderSooner79]

We did run that smoke draw again at a critical time. NU stuffed it. That was the play before the 4th and 4 where Jones got picked.

[ashley]

as for the OP, we have chronic decade long problems evaluating and retaining guys at certain positions. the positions that we are consistently strong at are the ones where we hardly ever have attrition and recruit to an archetype.

Recruiting juniors has led to this everywhere. There were enough mistakes when recruiting seniors.

[prrriiide]

It would have been really nice to have Gerald Jones at wideout this year...even with Tennessee's ineptitude the first half of the season, he's having a pretty good year. He was one of the only play-makers on last year's UT offense.

[Sooner04]

Don't forget how lucky we are to have our one playmaking wideout. We were lucky to get Broyles after slow playing him as much as we did.

[rawlingsHOH]

our running backs are a huge part of our problem, but speed isn't the reason.

i have no idea what happened to chris brown, but i expected him to come out this year and dominate in terms of yards and carries. but nooooooo, 4 straight runs and he is signalling to come out cause he's tired. its no wonder we can't get any continuity on the OL in run blocking. geez, every running back has tendencies and you tweak your blocks to accomodate. right now we may flip flop backs 3 times on a 12 play drive.
i also have no idea what is going on with our playcalling with our running backs. did anyone else notice brown ripping off runs with that smoke draw iwth murray coming around the other side? we ran it twice for 22 yards and didn't see it for the rest of the game. what in the heck? i'm going to give gundy a pass for now, but if he keeps this crap up he is well on the way to the wussification of our running game.
I think part of Brown's problem was losing that weight, in attempt to increase his speed. He's less effective doing what he did well last year, between the tackles, moving the chain.

Though I'm not sure where you are coming from, qustioning his stamina, Demarco Murray taps his helmet more than any back I've EVER seen.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

yes, but brown in a senior. i figured he'd come out and try to impress seeing as how its his last chance to impress.

[GKeeper316]

personally i think we should go back to recruiting the 2 and 3 star guys that feel the need to prove themselves rather than the 4 and 5 star prima donnas that are convinced of thier own superiority.

[OU44life]

well check our new boy Brennan Clay coming in!! already knows what to do

(clay far left, Finch next to him)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm474/jlew1818/clay.jpg

Sweet, when was picture taken? That's Kyle Prater with them too on the far right, right? I hope Clay is talking to him about coming to OU.

[rawlingsHOH]

personally i think we should go back to recruiting the 2 and 3 star guys that feel the need to prove themselves rather than the 4 and 5 star prima donnas that are convinced of thier own superiority.
I think a mix is generally the best recipe. And I think the staff has done that for the most part.

Also remember with the all of the early commitments now a days, guys who may have been previously thought of as "two-star" guys by recruiting services, get 3 or 4 star grades because of the reputation of the school they are offered.

[NormanPride]

*coughNotreDamecough*

[Cinco Ranch Cougar]

The vast majority of recruiters:
1. put way too much attention to the ratings game of recruits.
2. get caught up in the body profile game - a certain height, a certain weight, etc.....
3. get caught up in the herd mentality of "if they want him so bad, then we should too.
So what happens is that you get a bunch of players that appear to be great prospects with high ratings but cannot play football, and are fundamentally very weak. And when asked to play against a well disciplined team with excellent fundamentals but are markedly "less" talented in terms of raw athletic ability, guess what, they get their butts kicked.
So I suggest that:
1. recruiters look at their high school coaches
2. check their fundamentals ( and believe me you can do that very easily)
3. and evaluate their overall football ability as a package.
Then you'll see if you have a football player with a nose and the heart for the game or if you have greate athlete that doesn't know the first thing about breaking down, staying home, etc......
Case in point (and i know my friends on board who know my handle will agree):
Every year teams with great athletic ability and potential that have double digit D-1 signees get knocked out in the first or second round of the playoffs by teams with one or two signees, with lesser "skilled players and athletes", but who know how to play sound fundamental football and stick with the game plan.
Conclusion: do your homework and pay less attention to what the services are telling you and go find the lesser hyped players that come from schools with good coaches.
I know, I just went through this with my son and he will be playing for a great D-1 program with incredible academics.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

there is some good stuff in this thread, and several people hit what i think is the major issue we have right now, but i'll spell it out.

it isn't that we are recruiting kids that are overrated, it's that the coach recruiting them overrates his own ability to coach them.

facts about college football:

practice time with the coaches is severely limited. from your bowl game until aug 14ths a coach is allowed 45 hours practicing football. 1 work week in nearly 8 months. we always here how football players training for the combine learn more about football in 2 months than they did in their previous 4 years in college. ya think?

that is why our coaches use bowl prep time to get in more work with the younger kids. they get another 40 hours of coaching in with them. this may be one of the reasons that we come out flat, but based on results it has helped a ton from a regular season perspective.

from a recruiting perspective - the amount of time that you have to teach technique is so limited it isn't even funny. think about having 1 class for 3 hours a day for 15 days full of a mix of 1st through 5th graders all on different levels and trying to teach football skills.

this is where evaluation comes in -> they have to have a baseline of skills for the position before you even consider them. if i were a coach i'd try to get guys that were weak in an area that i was a strong teacher.


kids are going to grow a ton during their time in college - one of the more interesting things that no one really talks about is the effect of 85 schollies on injury rates of players. forcing 18 year olds to have to play against 22 year olds because of numbers in this game is just assinine.

this puts forth a perplexing problem for coaches - do you get the kid who is ready to play now but may be beaten down by his senior year or do you get the guy that is going to take a couple of years to have the size to play but will be a monster his rs jr/sr years.

one of the more interesting players with this phenomenon is phillip dillard at nebraska. he was a classic tweener in high school at 240 lbs. yes, he'd be able to play linebacker as a freshman but he'd eat his way into an undersized DE by the time he was a senior. when i saw him the other day i was like wow, he's skinnier than when he was in high school. i'm happy for the kid's success, but he just isn't the norm.

however, our coaches hit the other extreme -> they go for skinny guys at 210/190 in high school and project that they are going to grow into 250 linebackers. latimer/baker - the list is long with guys who got here and couldn't gain weight. because of this, i tend to give LB and DE a pass on these types of recruits.

instincts make the football player - this is what drives me nuts about our linebackers - omg, there are plenty of guys out there that have better instincts than the guys we have on campus.

[ashley]

The college teams with the most 4 and 5 guys are going to win more over the long haul. Check it out.

[NormanPride]

Instincts are so hard to project, though. I mean, is the tweener with great instincts at the high school level still going to do the same stuff at the college level? But you're right - and that's why people say we need to go after the "2-3 star guys". What they're REALLY saying is that they want the kids out there that can't run as fast or aren't as big, but ALWAYS know where to be and are used to working hard to get there.

[OUmillenium]

Don't forget about Bryan Pickryl. How could we have missed out on that talent? ;)

Pickryl was probably going to UTerus all along. He had strong family connection to Texas. I think his 2nd choice was LSU. One summer morning, I was at the track wearing an LSU baseball shirt (gift from inlaws and before Lester went there and before 2003 bowl if I remember correctly), he saw it and all he could talk about was LSU and he was thinking about going there.

Some guys were never going to consider OU. That's one of the most important parts in recruiting, figuring out who seriously is considering OU and working on those guys.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The college teams with the most 4 and 5 guys are going to win more over the long haul. Check it out.

as i stated on this very board when that rivals article came out - there is an underlying assumption that the 4 and 5 star players are the ones that make you win games.

heck, look at OU last year. we are always in the top 5 for 4/5 star players, yet 1/3 of our starters were 3 *s or less including most of our statistical leaders.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

What they're REALLY saying is that they want the kids out there that can't run as fast or aren't as big, but ALWAYS know where to be and are used to working hard to get there.

no, what we want is the kid that isn't the fastest biggest guy (important distinction), we want the fastest biggest insanely competitive guy.

[NormanPride]

With no instincts?

[BoulderSooner79]

Regarding Chris Brown - I really don't see the difference you guys see in him this year. He has always been the back with patience and vision who sets up blocks well and runs to daylight. The only difference I see is the blocks are not there as often, nor the daylight and thus he is less effective. DM does look slower to me and I fear that last surgery was one too many. But that is just how it appears to me - he could be fine.

[gaylordfan1]

Murray is not as fast as he was in the past, but he runs a lot harder and stronger than years past. Brown looks slower and doesn't appear to be getting the yards Murray does during each game...but going back and seeing their game stats, they are almost dead even. Who knows....

[cb4ou]

I posted this very statement about Murray and Brown on another site. We look slow at running back. It is just the line we do not hit the hole fast and get outside real fast. I saw this Brown kid playing for Central Michigan last night. He looked much faster and hit the hole better than our running backs. Watch USC's running backs they just look quicker. I think Murray got to big and has lost a step. He looks to run over people instead of making people miss him.

Back to recruiting misfires. For some reason we can not keep lineman. We run them off and some of them succeed in other programs. Beeler at Standford and Millington at Illinios. Why?

[Collier11]

The college teams with the most 4 and 5 guys are going to win more over the long haul. Check it out.

Problem with that is espn, rivals, and scout all have different rankings, so one persons 4 or 5 star guy may be another persons 3 star guy. That and the fact that you just have to get lucky sometimes like with Heupel and Bradford

[GKeeper316]

The vast majority of recruiters:
1. put way too much attention to the ratings game of recruits.
2. get caught up in the body profile game - a certain height, a certain weight, etc.....
3. get caught up in the herd mentality of "if they want him so bad, then we should too.
So what happens is that you get a bunch of players that appear to be great prospects with high ratings but cannot play football, and are fundamentally very weak. And when asked to play against a well disciplined team with excellent fundamentals but are markedly "less" talented in terms of raw athletic ability, guess what, they get their butts kicked.
So I suggest that:
1. recruiters look at their high school coaches
2. check their fundamentals ( and believe me you can do that very easily)
3. and evaluate their overall football ability as a package.
Then you'll see if you have a football player with a nose and the heart for the game or if you have greate athlete that doesn't know the first thing about breaking down, staying home, etc......
Case in point (and i know my friends on board who know my handle will agree):
Every year teams with great athletic ability and potential that have double digit D-1 signees get knocked out in the first or second round of the playoffs by teams with one or two signees, with lesser "skilled players and athletes", but who know how to play sound fundamental football and stick with the game plan.
Conclusion: do your homework and pay less attention to what the services are telling you and go find the lesser hyped players that come from schools with good coaches.
I know, I just went through this with my son and he will be playing for a great D-1 program with incredible academics.

preparation beats talent when talent isn't prepared.

i forgot who said it.

[Collier11]

I posted this very statement about Murray and Brown on another site. We look slow at running back. It is just the line we do not hit the hole fast and get outside real fast. I saw this Brown kid playing for Central Michigan last night. He looked much faster and hit the hole better than our running backs. Watch USC's running backs they just look quicker. I think Murray got to big and has lost a step. He looks to run over people instead of making people miss him.

Back to recruiting misfires. For some reason we can not keep lineman. We run them off and some of them succeed in other programs. Beeler at Standford and Millington at Illinios. Why?

The O-line makes us look slow

[BoulderSooner79]

The O-line makes us look slow

That and the fact that every DC is going to stack up against the run and dare us to beat them with our passing game. Last year, that would be our favorite dare.

[cb4ou]

The o-line does not make us look slow. Our backs do not make anyone miss and the few times we have broke long runs we get caught. Even against inferior teams. You are crazy if you dont think Murray has lost a step.

[Collier11]

you are clueless, Thanks for playing

[Sooner04]

I also think Murray has lost a step. He's much stronger, but the guy who broke that 92-yarder against Utah State in 2007 is no longer with us.

[Collier11]

you mean the guy who had a pretty good O-line two years in a row? Im sure after the injuries that he isnt a 4.45 guy anymore but I really doubt he is a 4.6 guy either, the Oline is not opening any holes this year, at all

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

heh,

there are backs who make the OL look good, and then there are OL that make the backs look good.

our problem is the one back we have that fits into the first group got shifted out to receiver leaving us with 2 backs that fit into the last category.

[Collier11]

if you are talking about Madu I cant agree with you, if he was that good he would be a RB

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I also think Murray has lost a step. He's much stronger, but the guy who broke that 92-yarder against Utah State in 2007 is no longer with us.

i'll bet if you took film from now and compared it to then, he'd be covering pretty much the same ground as he did then. we as fans have a tendency to oversimplify things that are pretty complicated. there are 11 defensive guys going against 9 blockers and a ball carrier.

[Sooner04]

I don't know. I remember that run against Texas in 2007 when he just left everybody. And then I compare that run to this year's Texas game when he was all alone on that early swing pass and was still caught.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

if you are talking about Madu I cant agree with you, if he was that good he would be a RB

seriously? do you want to go down the way of our coaches always pick the right starter? calhoun/madu is eerily similar to thompson/bomar. calhoun hasn't demonstrated in any of his 15 or so carries that he has any kind of vision. he just takes the hand off and runs into the pile. madu had that Q like ability to make people miss.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I don't know. I remember that run against Texas in 2007 when he just left everybody. And then I compare that run to this year's Texas game when he was all alone on that early swing pass and was still caught.

you mean the one where his blocker was chicken fighting right in front of him and wouldn't take the defender one way or the other? i think murray's speed is just as good as it was, but there are 2 things missing -> wiggle and WR blocking. he just isn't comfortable on his legs yet and outside of caleb, i'm not sure any of our WRs can block.

[BoulderSooner79]

The big play this year was a pass underneath the deep coverage where there were several defenders downfield to tackle him. The '07 run was a run all the way with most D guys close to the line, so hard to compare. DM does look slower to me, but the team is so different it's hard to tell. But he has had 2 major leg surgeries in 2 years and that can't help.

[Collier11]

and Madu never demonstrated in 2 years that he was better than any of the RBs we have or he would be playing

[rawlingsHOH]

seriously? do you want to go down the way of our coaches always pick the right starter? calhoun/madu is eerily similar to thompson/bomar. calhoun hasn't demonstrated in any of his 15 or so carries that he has any kind of vision. he just takes the hand off and runs into the pile. madu had that Q like ability to make people miss.

wow

[Sooner04]

Yes, jkm. That's the one.

I also remember thinking the only way he doesn't score on that play is to take the EXACT route he took. If he breaks to the northeast corner he can moonwalk in from about the 20.

[NormanPride]

jkm has loved Madu since he was in high school, so him preferring the kid over Calhoun is no surprise. Honestly, I liked Madu, but he never learned to keep things between the tackles sometimes.

Perhaps next year he will get another shot if Murray goes pro. Otherwise it's Miller and Murray.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

and Madu never demonstrated in 2 years that he was better than any of the RBs we have or he would be playing

any? you mean like calhoun? madu ended up with almost 500 yards rushing last year, calhoun has what 60 this year? what you fail to grasp is having a 3rd string tailback that can step in and pile up yards with a totally different style of running gives us one thing we lack this year -> flexibility. it also adds the threat of competition to the 2 starters.

heck, the guy has managed 17 yards on that royal fail formation they've put together for him.

[Widescreen]

Yeah, that run was on Murray. Of course just because I could see it from my couch, doesn't mean he's going to see the best way to go while running fast down the field with people all around him.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Yes, jkm. That's the one.

I also remember thinking the only way he doesn't score on that play is to take the EXACT route he took. If he breaks to the northeast corner he can moonwalk in from about the 20.

i totally agree with you, but you can't use a play where he makes a poor tactical decision as evidence that he's lost a step. how many times has he probably heard "wait for the blocker to set up the block!!" in his life?

[Sooner04]

i totally agree with you, but you can't use a play where he makes a poor tactical decision as evidence that he's lost a step. how many times has he probably heard "wait for the blocker to set up the block!!" in his life?
Maybe so. I just know I was in the same location for both runs and that final gear didn't appear to be so "DAMN!" in 2009 like it was in 2007. When he was going up that east sideline in 2007 I thought it was Pruitt-esque.

[Collier11]

any? you mean like calhoun? madu ended up with almost 500 yards rushing last year, calhoun has what 60 this year? what you fail to grasp is having a 3rd string tailback that can step in and pile up yards with a totally different style of running gives us one thing we lack this year -> flexibility. it also adds the threat of competition to the 2 starters.

heck, the guy has managed 17 yards on that royal fail formation they've put together for him.

again, if they thought he was ever going to be a stud he would be a RB, they obviously feel that with Murray likely coming back next yr coupled with what theyve seen from Miller and Calhoun that they have better RBs with those guys

[Sooner04]

Not necessarily, Collier. Why else would DeJuan Miller be MIA during the first half of the season? That guy gets on the field and everyone in the state wonders, "Where in the hell has THAT guy been?"

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

wow

obviously we have someone who is thinking of Q as a senior. as a freshman/sophomore Q had flashes of what he was as a senior, it wasn't consistant. and the cries to bench him for works were incredibly loud for the same reasons people like adrian peterson.

i just see things differently in a college environment. college is about ball control and scoring points. so i want a back who can give me 120 yards on 20 carries with a min of 2 and a max of 8 - one who always has the offense ahead of schedule because that nets you a ton of 2nd and 4/5 situations.

backs who rush 25 times for a 150 yards with a 65 and a 70 yarder just don't do it for me because what the heck did the offense do when they were rushing 23 times for 15 yards?

[Collier11]

Dejuan Miller didnt get on the field because he was immature and wasnt grasping the offense, that has been stated by coaches. Once he grew up they simplified the offense and got him on the field. Also, Madu is a JR, not a soph

[JLEW1818]

Madu has been pretty irrelevant this year

I'm ready to get Clay and Finch .. those guys look fast

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Maybe so. I just know I was in the same location for both runs and that final gear didn't appear to be so "DAMN!" in 2009 like it was in 2007. When he was going up that east sideline in 2007 I thought it was Pruitt-esque.

i'd go back and watch the run again. i remember him getting into the open field and then seeing the defender/blocker combo and then slowing up to wait for the block that would never come. heck, he may have been thinking that he's lost a gear and couldn't run past the guy for all we know.

the problem is that there have been some plays this year where he has hit the LOS as fast as i can remember a back at OU. on those runs, he just doesn't have any wiggle to get the DBs off balance and has just been running them over. in that respect, he's been running like i thought chris brown would this year.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Dejuan Miller didnt get on the field because he was immature and wasnt grasping the offense, that has been stated by coaches. Once he grew up they simplified the offense and got him on the field. Also, Madu is a JR, not a soph

sigh, i understand that madu is a jr. my point was that what we saw of madu was from his SOPHOMORE year. as jlew said, madu has been irrelevant this year because of a coaching decison.

[rawlingsHOH]

obviously we have someone who is thinking of Q as a senior. as a freshman/sophomore Q had flashes of what he was as a senior, it wasn't consistant. and the cries to bench him for works were incredibly loud for the same reasons people like adrian peterson.

i just see things differently in a college environment. college is about ball control and scoring points. so i want a back who can give me 120 yards on 20 carries with a min of 2 and a max of 8 - one who always has the offense ahead of schedule because that nets you a ton of 2nd and 4/5 situations.

backs who rush 25 times for a 150 yards with a 65 and a 70 yarder just don't do it for me because what the heck did the offense do when they were rushing 23 times for 15 yards?
Q's style was the same his entire career. It was just his productivity that doubled in 2002. Madu just doesn't remind me at all of Q in terms of style. He is much more N/S. Remind me of #33 Jerod ? (can't think of last name).

Yep, many were calling for Renaldo over Q. That hit a fevered pitch after Alabama 2002, just prior to Q really taking off!

[BoulderSooner79]

i'd go back and watch the run again. i remember him getting into the open field and then seeing the defender/blocker combo and then slowing up to wait for the block that would never come. heck, he may have been thinking that he's lost a gear and couldn't run past the guy for all we know.

the problem is that there have been some plays this year where he has hit the LOS as fast as i can remember a back at OU. on those runs, he just doesn't have any wiggle to get the DBs off balance and has just been running them over. in that respect, he's been running like i thought chris brown would this year.

Yep, DM is definitely favoring power this year. Maybe because he knows there are not going to be any big holes. I've never seen CB run that way, so I don't expect it. CB is not as big as DM and has never shown a lot of power.

[JLEW1818]

well DM will be back

[BoulderSooner79]

well DM will be back

I'll believe that when I hear it from rus.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Dejuan Miller didnt get on the field because he was immature and wasnt grasping the offense, that has been stated by coaches. Once he grew up they simplified the offense and got him on the field. Also, Madu is a JR, not a soph

miller was a horrible practice player. there is a difference between that and immature. reggie barnes was a horrible practice player when i was at OU. that didn't stop him from being a terror on the edge on gameday.

lets remember that the coach (wilson) who called miller immature also said that tennell was going to dominate this year.

[Collier11]

sigh, i understand that madu is a jr. my point was that what we saw of madu was from his SOPHOMORE year. as jlew said, madu has been irrelevant this year because of a coaching decison.

and im telling you that he is irrelevant cus he isnt good enough to get on the field. Do you really think with our offensive struggles this season that if there was someone who could make a bigger impact they wouldnt be on the field?

[rawlingsHOH]

Estus was the kid I was trying to remember.

That is who Madu reminds me of, but better.

[Sooner04]

Do you really think with our offensive struggles this season that if there was someone who could make a bigger impact they wouldnt be on the field?
Sure! We redshirted a future Heisman winner in 2006 so Paul Thompson could start.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Q's style was the same his entire career. It was just his productivity that doubled in 2002. Madu just doesn't remind me at all of Q in terms of style. He is much more N/S. Remind me of #33 Jerod ? (can't think of last name).

Yep, many were calling for Renaldo over Q. That hit a fevered pitch after Alabama 2002, just prior to Q really taking off!

jerad estus. i used Q because i doubt more than 5 people on this board remember estus since he rarely played. however, we can go with the comparison as jerad was shake and go up the field whereas Q was shake and meander. the key point being that at the time we had a crappy, omg crappy OL yet we could isolate one defender on Q and he could make that guy miss. our running backs right now just don't have any wiggle.

[Collier11]

Sure! We redshirted a future Heisman winner in 2006 so Paul Thompson could start.

probably because SB wasnt ready yet, not being ready is different than not being good enough

[Collier11]

I think he meant Jerald Moore?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

and im telling you that he is irrelevant cus he isnt good enough to get on the field. Do you really think with our offensive struggles this season that if there was someone who could make a bigger impact they wouldnt be on the field?

no, you are assuming that the fact that he isn't good enough is the reason he isn't getting on the field. as for the second question, that depends on the individual. some people have a hard time admitting they are wrong.

i mean am i just imagining things or did we replace a kicker who was perfect or near perfect with a new guy who went out and missed 75% of his kicks? and even at that point, we weren't ready to put the other guy back in?

[Collier11]

You are contradicting yourself now, if you like Madu that is fine, just dont be mad at me cus I am able to realize that there is a reason he never plays. Listen, I thought preseason with him moving to slot that he would have a big yr but it is evident that even with the struggles of the WRs threw the first half or more of the season that he isnt good enough at that position either.

This isnt my opinion, this is fact that is backed up by the coaches

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I think he meant Jerald Moore?

heh, if you remember maurice clarett as a freshman, that was jerald moore. the fast big guy that created poor angles for tacklers.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

You are contradicting yourself now, if you like Madu that is fine, just dont be mad at me cus I am able to realize that there is a reason he never plays. Listen, I thought preseason with him moving to slot that he would have a big yr but it is evident that even with the struggles of the WRs threw the first half or more of the season that he isnt good enough at that position either.

This isnt my opinion, this is fact that is backed up by the coaches

i'm contradicting myself? you are the one throwing out your own opinion as stated fact by the coaches. you are also assuming that the reason that i'm defending madu is that i love him as a player and want him to play. unfortunately for you, that isn't the case.

my argument about madu is that you have a proven talented player that for no good reason, you decide to make irrelevant. anyone who has ever played offense in this game knows that wide receiver and running back are nothing alike. a running back has the entire game in front of them, the ball, blockers, defenders. wide receivers play the game with everything both behind them and in front of them. expecting a player to move out there for the occasional toss sweep just doesn't seem like a logical move when he is 3rd on the depth chart. now if he drops to 4 and its his idea, that is something totally different.

madu, of course, is just one facet of this. we could also go into all of the reps that they gave tennell during games last year instead of caleb.

[NormanPride]

Jerald Moore was awesome. Too bad nothing else was at the time.

[TopDawg]

again, if they thought he was ever going to be a stud he would be a RB, they obviously feel that with Murray likely coming back next yr coupled with what theyve seen from Miller and Calhoun that they have better RBs with those guys

You're making the assumption that they moved him to WR because of his lack of ability as a RB. But they could've moved him to WR because they thought he was the most likely RB candidate to contribute as a WR. They might've thought he was better at RB than Miller or Calhoun, but that he was more likely to be a key contributor at WR.

[NormanPride]

The coaches thought that Murray and Brown would be enough RB for the team. They also thought that Tennel (lol) and Broyles would not be enough WR for the team. So they moved Madu, a player Wilson has repeatedly said that he loves, out there to see if he could be the slot WR for us while Broyles moves out wide.

He couldn't.

Then some stuff happened, and now we have bigger issues so Madu is kind of a low priority.

[tulsaoilerfan]

jerad estus. i used Q because i doubt more than 5 people on this board remember estus since he rarely played. however, we can go with the comparison as jerad was shake and go up the field whereas Q was shake and meander. the key point being that at the time we had a crappy, omg crappy OL yet we could isolate one defender on Q and he could make that guy miss. our running backs right now just don't have any wiggle.

Exactly jkm; how many times has Murray been tackled by one guy this season? Hell i remember it happening last game when he had a helluva lot of turf in front of him

[tulsaoilerfan]

The coaches thought that Murray and Brown would be enough RB for the team. They also thought that Tennel (lol) and Broyles would not be enough WR for the team. So they moved Madu, a player Wilson has repeatedly said that he loves, out there to see if he could be the slot WR for us while Broyles moves out wide.

He couldn't.

Then some stuff happened, and now we have bigger issues so Madu is kind of a low priority.

Which is all the more reason to move him back to RB; the kid is just being wasted this season

[tulsaoilerfan]

You are contradicting yourself now, if you like Madu that is fine, just dont be mad at me cus I am able to realize that there is a reason he never plays. Listen, I thought preseason with him moving to slot that he would have a big yr but it is evident that even with the struggles of the WRs threw the first half or more of the season that he isnt good enough at that position either.

This isnt my opinion, this is fact that is backed up by the coaches

So are you saying that the coaches are not capable of being wrong?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So are you saying that the coaches are not capable of being wrong?

*cough*tress way*cough*

[Collier11]

Im saying that after youve been on campus for 3 years the coaches know what you can do, there is a reason he woulda been behind 4 rbs on the depth chart

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Im saying that after youve been on campus for 3 years the coaches know what you can do, there is a reason he woulda been behind 4 rbs on the depth chart

woulda? do i need to bring back the pre-spring depth chart?

and you are arguing with the wrong person if you want me to bring up guys who were totally forgotten and then had monster 4th and 5th years.

gayron allen? clint ingram? manny johnson?

[Collier11]

The reason being that in that particular yr they were the best player for that position, this yr Madu cannot get on the field at RB or WR, there is a reason for that. This isnt hard to figure out

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

ooo, lets keep going

paul thompson, quentin chaney, nate hybl, jason white, zach latimer, keenan clayton

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The reason being that in that particular yr they were the best player for that position, this yr Madu cannot get on the field at RB or WR, there is a reason for that. This isnt hard to figure out

yeah, its called an assinine coaching decision

[Collier11]

Well, we will see. If Madu goes out and has a good yr next yr maybe we can second guess, I personally think that at this point and time, especially with our struggles, if Madu was good enough he would be playing.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

and let's put this in perspective, i don't call for the OC or the DC's heads after they have one bad year at the helm. in my experience, its lots of little decisions that end up coming back to hurt you later. the reason for the madu move was that its worked sometimes in the past. not every time. they went to him and said hey you can help us out a ton if you move out here. so they did, just like when they told dj wolfe he could help us out a ton by moving to corner.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Well, we will see. If Madu goes out and has a good yr next yr maybe we can second guess, I personally think that at this point and time, especially with our struggles, if Madu was good enough he would be playing.

seriously, have you ever played football? they have this thing called a playbook and its very particular for each position on over a 100 plays. even if they wanted to bring him back, they are probably like "what's the point?" they may or may not bring him back to running back next year, but honestly i bet they go with one of the younger backs as the secondary back. even if he isn't as good.

[Collier11]

The diff is when DJ moved, he contributed alot

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The diff is when DJ moved, he contributed alot

yes, to the overall anger on this board.

[Collier11]

seriously, have you ever played football? they have this thing called a playbook and its very particular for each position on over a 100 plays. even if they wanted to bring him back, they are probably like "what's the point?" they may or may not bring him back to running back next year, but honestly i bet they go with one of the younger backs as the secondary back. even if he isn't as good.

It is basically impossible to have a good debate on this board without someone throwing out some childish BS like this

seriously, have you ever played football?

Stoops and Gundy and Wilson know a hell of alot more about football than you are or I do, Madu has been on campus for a while and barely plays, there is a reason for that. Whether he isnt good enough, isnt smart enough, or whatever it is, he isnt playing for a reason. If he was better than any of the WRs (which a few of them are not that good) or better than any of our RBs he would be playing, he isnt. Sorry it hurts your feelings but its the truth

[NormanPride]

Madu doesn't play because he was moved to WR before the season to shore up the position and there are two 3-4 year starters at RB, not because he sucks. If we have Jason, Sam, and Josh Heupel at QB then someone is riding the pine in 3rd place. I'm not saying that Madu is a potential heisman winner, but he got over 500 yards last year in scrap time - he's not a chump that the coaches just moved somewhere for the lulz.

Is the argument that they took the time to move him to WR because he's terrible? That they pinned the hopes of the slot position in the preseason on him because he was bad at being a RB? Is that the argument here? Or is it that he was mediocre there and they just decided to shake up the depth chart by moving him to WR because Murray's been so healthy all this time? It sounds like some people think the kid will never play anywhere, but if that's the case then the coaches would just forget about him. Not try to get him on the field.

We've got to remember that when we moved him to WR Tennell was shining in practice, Broyles was ready to be the next Clayton, Gresham was going to win the Mackey, and Sam was on his way to another heisman. Madu was moved because they wanted to get him in space and use his athleticism. We already had two 1k yard rushers returning in the RB position and leaving him on the bench was silly. He, unfortunately, hasn't picked up the offense from the WR position. It was a failed move.

[Sooner04]

Im saying that after youve been on campus for 3 years the coaches know what you can do, there is a reason he woulda been behind 4 rbs on the depth chart
I disagree wholeheartedly here. They let many other factors affect their decision. How else to explain Nate Hybl getting the nod in 2001 over Jason White? You know why Nate got the nod? Because he transferred in. There wasn't a single thing he did better than Jason.

And I'm a big Hybl fan, but that's another case where a guy sees the field and you go, "Where in the hell has THAT guy been?"

But these coaches aren't cyborgs. They make mistakes because they are human and they sometimes play guys because they may like them more than others. Sometimes their eyes can deceive. They've been right a hell of a lot. Sometimes they miss the boat, and I think they're missing it with Madu. The kid has a ton of ability and he's just wasting away this season. He's a playmaker. Get him the ball.

[Sooner04]

Stoops and Gundy and Wilson know a hell of alot more about football than you are or I do,
Don't sell yourself short, Collier. I think you know more about football than Cale.

:)

[Collier11]

I disagree wholeheartedly here. They let many other factors affect their decision. How else to explain Nate Hybl getting the nod in 2001 over Jason White? You know why Nate got the nod? Because he transferred in. There wasn't a single thing he did better than Jason.

And I'm a big Hybl fan, but that's another case where a guy sees the field and you go, "Where in the hell has THAT guy been?"

But these coaches aren't cyborgs. They make mistakes because they are human and they sometimes play guys because they may like them more than others. Sometimes their eyes can deceive. They've been right a hell of a lot. Sometimes they miss the boat, and I think they're missing it with Madu. The kid has a ton of ability and he's just wasting away this season. He's a playmaker. Get him the ball.

You are arguing my point, Nate and Jason went back and forth because the coaches thought they were pretty even at the time obviously, at this point in time they dont think Madu is good enough to get alot of reps at WR. Next year maybe, who knows

[Sooner04]

You are arguing my point, Nate and Jason went back and forth because the coaches thought they were pretty even at the time obviously, at this point in time they dont think Madu is good enough to get alot of reps at WR. Next year maybe, who knows
I think that's the problem. We're still trying to spread the field with a QB who can't get beyond read two. We've got a stable of running backs (Madu included) yet we're still spreading things out. Why? I think that's the main problem everybody has. Why is this kid still dying out there at WR?

He proved in the Big 12 CG he was no schmuck.

[Collier11]

and I never said he wasnt any good, just not good enough to play right now

[Curly Bill]

Boys, you can question anything in this world but OU's coaches -- they are never wrong.

We only think they are wrong sometimes because we are too dumb to realize how wrong we are for thinking they are wrong...


...or something like that.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Boys, you can question anything in this world but OU's coaches -- they are never wrong.

We only think they are wrong sometimes because we are too dumb to realize how wrong we are for thinking they are wrong...


...or something like that.

That's the truth for sure Bill; some of the people on here think that the coaches can do no wrong, while others on here realize they are human and make mistakes just like the rest of us do everyday in our jobs

[rawlingsHOH]

jerad estus. i used Q because i doubt more than 5 people on this board remember estus since he rarely played. however, we can go with the comparison as jerad was shake and go up the field whereas Q was shake and meander. the key point being that at the time we had a crappy, omg crappy OL yet we could isolate one defender on Q and he could make that guy miss. our running backs right now just don't have any wiggle.

Yes, Estus. Rarely played, couldn't do a lot of the other things, but really had a burst that reminds me of Madu!

[gaylordfan1]

Well, I agree that Madu is a good player and has given his all while at OU. I really like the kid. But, not to throw more stink into this argument... Madu has had several chances in several game to return kicks. And he really hasn't done much. Even Franks has had several long returns. I also remember him getting several chances during Miami at slot when Broyles went down. He had several bubble screens thrown his way, which is kinda like a RB catching a screen, and he didn't do anything.... anything. But here's to Madu finishing the year strong and having a great 2010 season. I do hope he gets more of a chance.

[cvsooner]

IMHO, 50 percent of the problems with the offense this season are directly traced to the woeful offensive line play, especially against three ranked opponents (Miami, Texas and BYU) and a defense that looks a lot like ours. They haven't been so bad against everybody else. With one or two exceptions, I expect them to have a much better game against A & M...but that one DE is a monster...look out, Landry.

Another 20 percent or so is receivers not making catches they should be making. Another 20 percent is receivers not blocking worth a flip when it matters (which is most of the time, and especially on a run that gets to the next level).

The remainder is a mix of QB inexperience, coaching blunders during the game and just sheer bad luck.

It's just one of those years...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

It is basically impossible to have a good debate on this board without someone throwing out some childish BS like this

seriously, have you ever played football?

Stoops and Gundy and Wilson know a hell of alot more about football than you are or I do, Madu has been on campus for a while and barely plays, there is a reason for that. Whether he isnt good enough, isnt smart enough, or whatever it is, he isnt playing for a reason. If he was better than any of the WRs (which a few of them are not that good) or better than any of our RBs he would be playing, he isnt. Sorry it hurts your feelings but its the truth

that was a sign of my exasperation at your oversimplified arguments. your main argument is that if he was that good at RB, they'd flip him back to RB tomorrow and he'll start. that is like asking a ballerina to go try pole dancing for 9 months and then come back and be a ballerina tomorrow. it ain't going to happen.

another part of the problem is your insistence on comparing 2 things in a vacuum -> madu vs brown/murray and madu vs other WRs. my point is that if it was so important to get playmakers on the field, tweaking the offense to utilize 2 RBs with a platoon of brown/murray/madu would have been a much more effective strategy than having a running back become a WR and not changing the offense one mote.

and humorously in the last few games we've seen more and more 2 running back sets when we have nobody behind the 2 starters.

[Collier11]

I realize that he is a good athlete and I really thought he would be a stud from the second he got to OU, I realize that moving to WR hurt his progress and maybe next yr he will show out in the slot, the only point im making is that for one reason or another he is not good enough this year to get on the field. Whether that is cus of the new position or he just isnt as good as we thought, either way he isnt getting out there and he should be able to with this offense

[rawlingsHOH]

I disagree wholeheartedly here. They let many other factors affect their decision. How else to explain Nate Hybl getting the nod in 2001 over Jason White? You know why Nate got the nod? Because he transferred in. There wasn't a single thing he did better than Jason.

And I'm a big Hybl fan, but that's another case where a guy sees the field and you go, "Where in the hell has THAT guy been?"

But these coaches aren't cyborgs. They make mistakes because they are human and they sometimes play guys because they may like them more than others. Sometimes their eyes can deceive. They've been right a hell of a lot. Sometimes they miss the boat, and I think they're missing it with Madu. The kid has a ton of ability and he's just wasting away this season. He's a playmaker. Get him the ball.

When White hit the field in 2001 he was extremely raw. Too be expected, but he wasn't near the product he ended up circa 03-04. I can see why the coaches initially chose Hybl. Little more mature, more pocket oriented, etc. White was very free-wheeled in 01.

[NormanPride]

I think the fumble at Texas hurt his shot of seeing the field this year any more. The coaches are playing really close to the vest now, only playing the kids they trust the most. If he starts making plays on kickoffs, I guarantee he sees the field more. The problem is, he's just not a great returner...

[Collier11]

Yep, Murray is our stud KR and he cant do it due to past injuries, nothing is going right this yr dammit

[NormanPride]

:( :( :(

[MikeInNorman]

In my opinion, the biggest mistake made by the staff this year, when we have dire shortage of playmaking ability, is the Madu fiasco. They somehow contrived to move Madu from playing behind Murray and Brown to playing behind Broyles. Their acknowledgement of this mistake came as early as the BYU game when Brown and Murray didn't show up and Madu was tried in desperation at running back, a position at which he had not practiced since the NC game, just to attempt to get something going on the ground. Not surprisingly, this did not work. That same game showed the terrible lack of depth and playmaking ability in the WR corps, so Madu is now stuck at being Broyles' backup, because we can not afford to have someone who is not completely prepared to be Landry's primary (and usually only) read in the event of Broyles' absence, but we can't afford to ever have Broyles out of the game, either.

I'm in the "kid is a victim of poor decisions by the staff" camp.

[tulsaoilerfan]

In my opinion, the biggest mistake made by the staff this year, when we have dire shortage of playmaking ability, is the Madu fiasco. They somehow contrived to move Madu from playing behind Murray and Brown to playing behind Broyles. Their acknowledgement of this mistake came as early as the BYU game when Brown and Murray didn't show up and Madu was tried in desperation at running back, a position at which he had not practiced since the NC game, just to attempt to get something going on the ground. Not surprisingly, this did not work. That same game showed the terrible lack of depth and playmaking ability in the WR corps, so Madu is now stuck at being Broyles' backup, because we can not afford to have someone who is not completely prepared to be Landry's primary (and usually only) read in the event of Broyles' absence, but we can't afford to ever have Broyles out of the game, either.

I'm in the "kid is a victim of poor decisions by the staff" camp.

Obviously you didn't get the memo; our coaches never make any poor decisions :D