FBI and US Islam

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yeah, whatever. What will we do about it? http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/Mosques_preach_jihad/2009/11/10/284270.html?s=al&promo_code=9099-1

[Scott D]

I know this reply is pretty useless since I'm in the evil "gang of ignore".

10% of anything still means that 90% isn't doing what the 10% are doing.

[MojoRisen]

We need some loyal Muslim's to infiltrate the mosques, sounds sick but they are no help at all and if there are 200 mosques in the US preaching Jihad good god where does freedom of speach end and terrorism begin.

25 % of American Muslims can justify sucide bombings??? I pretty much am done with them and the moderates as well. They don't get it, we and you are American - you need to not obstruct justice - that is a crime.

[King Crimson]

i've been neglecting Newsmax.com for too long.

Sarah Palin's new book? wow.

the not new one rocked me.

[tommieharris91]

We need some loyal Muslim's to infiltrate the mosques, sounds sick but they are no help at all and if there are 200 mosques in the US preaching Jihad good god where does freedom of speach end and terrorism begin.


LOL, you once called yourself a Libertarian...

[Fraggle145]

Actually the article was semi-decent...

I liked this part:
On the other hand, those who condemn Muslims in general because of the actions of Hasan and others like him are engaging in prejudice that has no place in America. Indeed, such stereotyping sets back the war on terror, because we need moderate Muslims on our side.

The problem is not the Quran, which is no more incendiary than some passages in the Bible. (Deuteronomy, for example, prescribes stoning to death for those who “served other gods and worshipped them.”) The problem is the radical element that uses the Quran as an excuse to engage in terrorism and the failure of many moderate Muslims to condemn the extremists.

[I Am Right]

1st terrorist attack on US soil since 911.

[LosAngelesSooner]

1st terrorist attack on US soil since 911.
What about the Virginia Tech shooting? (doesn't count because he was Asian?)
What about the Jewish day care shooting? (doesn't count because they were Jews?)

The list goes on.

Now...please make the assertion that this was a direct result of "Obama being soft on Terror."

Please.

Pretty please.

I need another good laugh at your expense.

[OKLA21FAN]

1st terrorist attack on US soil since 911.

but then again, there alot of peeps in downtown Dallas who can still be happy and have a heartbeat thanks to the FBI

[MojoRisen]

What about the Virginia Tech shooting? (doesn't count because he was Asian?)
What about the Jewish day care shooting? (doesn't count because they were Jews?)

The list goes on.

Now...please make the assertion that this was a direct result of "Obama being soft on Terror."

Please.

Pretty please.

I need another good laugh at your expense.


This attack was the only one that is tied to the War on Terror, the other shootings were more random and not directed at America itself as a whole and more towards people with direct contact with the perp.

LA I am starting to think you are an OBAMA gay boy- all you do is antagonize and not look at facts. Are you saying this guy was not muslim and yelling God is Great - and in contact with Al queda our enemy?

I fail to see your point dude and most people do - just watch the media on this one and interviews. You may have to take this one on the chin, sorry if you are muslim or something.

[JLEW1818]

naw he's just a **** starter!:D

[LosAngelesSooner]

This attack was the only one that is tied to the War on Terror, the other shootings were more random and not directed at America itself as a whole and more towards people with direct contact with the perp. No? This wasn't directed towards people with a direct contact with the perp? He didn't select a base that he worked at where his feelers got all hurt and he felt people were picking on him?

He was a sick puppy, but he was no Al Qaeda sleeper cell. He was a ********* who wanted to do evil and got in touch with "evil" in his mind that he could associate with.

He's no more an Al Qaeda agent than the Columbine Killers were Metallica groupies. Just because he latched on to their beliefs, it was ultimately his private rage at America and his own deep seated anger and sickness that lead him to do this act ALL ON HIS OWN.

It wasn't planned by Osama. It wasn't funded by Saudi Princes. It wasn't communicated to him through a network of handlers.

It was his idea. And he's a sick, twisted, evil, pathetic fool.

PERIOD.


LA I am starting to think you are an OBAMA gay boy- all you do is antagonize and not look at facts. Are you saying this guy was not muslim and yelling God is Great - and in contact with Al queda our enemy? Really?

Really?

Really?

This is what you've got. Seriously. That I'm an "Obama Gay Boy." This. This is what you have. This is your big comeback since you can't seem to get past your own bigotry and blind hatred to see the facts in THIS particular case.

How ****ing pathetic.


I fail to see your point dude and most people do - just watch the media on this one and interviews. You may have to take this one on the chin, sorry if you are muslim or something.You fail at many things.
You've demonstrated this for several days now.

[MojoRisen]

LA you are a piece of work! where does your passion come from.

What's up with regular muslim's thinking they can go Jihad if things in there life go wrong. DC Sniper, Hasan - did you see the month's worth of communication with Al Queda from Hasan? The fact is he is a trader and he looked to Al Queda for quidence and is Muslim.

Don't know about you, but I am seeing a trend with this and so does Hasan.

[SoonerProphet]

Did he trade Persian rugs?

[Scott D]

I wouldn't want to go and burst Mojo's bubble by the fact that there were a bunch of Muslim leaders that in the past few days have spoken out not only against what this crackpot did, but also expressed their fears about the mentality that Mojo has shown for two threads now in terms of profiling and preventing people from serving in the military.

And FWIW, there have been American Muslims that have served their country with conviction and full beliefs in their mission and country without it conflicting with their religous beliefs for over 70 years.

[SoonerProphet]

http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/12/muslims-and-mass-murder

"Some commentators insist that Islam is inherently aggressive, intolerant, or bent on taking over the world by force. But contemporary terrorism, which is supposed to prove that, doesn't. As University of Chicago scholar Robert Pape has documented in his research on suicide attackers, most are motivated mainly by non-religious concerns.

Of 41 people who carried out suicide attacks in Lebanon between 1982 and 1986, he noted in his 2005 book Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, 30 were affiliated with groups opposed to Islamic fundamentalism, including secular communist, socialist, and Baath organizations. Three of the attackers were Christians. What the perpetrators shared was not a religion but an intense resentment of an occupation by foreign powers (the United States, France, and Israel)."

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/13/medicalizing_mass_murder_99142.html

I'm not a real big fan of CK's but those of you who continue to try and completely separate the role religion played in this particular event amuse me.

While I fervently agree that he wasn't a part of any terrorist organization or a sleeper cell to dismiss the role his belief system played in this is asinine.

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/13/medicalizing_mass_murder_99142.html

I'm not a real big fan of CK's but those of you who continue to try and completely separate the role religion played in this particular event amuse me.

While I fervently agree that he wasn't a part of any terrorist organization or a sleeper cell to dismiss the role his belief system played in this is asinine.

Personally I think you just like to grind that axe against organized religion and I have no beef with that. Also to completely separate at this stage may be too soon to think about. But this is more a political statement than anything else.

As you are well aware humanity has been utilizing the shibboleth of religious prose to commit political acts for thousands of years.

[JohnnyMack]

Personally I think you just like to grind that axe against organized religion and I have no beef with that. Also to completely separate at this stage may be too soon to think about. But this is more a political statement than anything else.

As you are well aware humanity has been utilizing the shibboleth of religious prose to commit political acts for thousands of years.

Heh.

And yes.

But at least admit that trying to separate the religious dogma from their political message isn't as cut and dry as some around here are trying to paint it as.

[SoonerProphet]

Heh.

And yes.

But at least admit that trying to separate the religious dogma from their political message isn't as cut and dry as some around here are trying to paint it as.

I can buy that. I also happen to think that this nut went in search of imams and religious dogma to fit his justifications for these acts, not the other way around. You can find f*ckin' crazy anywhere and anytime...secular or religious.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

What about the Virginia Tech shooting? (doesn't count because he was Asian?)
What about the Jewish day care shooting? (doesn't count because they were Jews?)

The list goes on.

Now...please make the assertion that this was a direct result of "Obama being soft on Terror."

Please.

Pretty please.

I need another good laugh at your expense.

I am sure Bush is at fault some where in there... ;)

[TheHumanAlphabet]

naw he's just a **** starter!:D

Or as my brother in law likes to say a **** disturber... ;)

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Somewhere the teaching or theology of Islam is a causal factor. I know many muslims who I don't think could be capable of any action close to this, but I don't know them well enough to visit their homes. People say "they" are radicals, not mainstream...However, I don't know many Christians going around and blowing innocent people up or shooting them as you see from people of the Islamic faith. The closest Christian analogy would be anti-abortion people shooting or blowing up clinics that perform abortions / abortion providers. That seems highly targeted and if you aren't around that, then no harm will come to you. Not that I think that is correct or Christian in any way. Otherwise "radical Christians" are just likely to prosletize at you really loudly.

[MojoRisen]

I wouldn't want to go and burst Mojo's bubble by the fact that there were a bunch of Muslim leaders that in the past few days have spoken out not only against what this crackpot did, but also expressed their fears about the mentality that Mojo has shown for two threads now in terms of profiling and preventing people from serving in the military.

And FWIW, there have been American Muslims that have served their country with conviction and full beliefs in their mission and country without it conflicting with their religous beliefs for over 70 years.

Quick question can put this all to rest for us all, who do you trust more the FBI or the Arab American Muslim population - because the FBI has severed all ties now with their leadership. Either way, the FBI is seeing something that I am as well. I admit, I maybe gerneralizing too much, but it is the FBI's position that has me very concerened.

Who do you trust more??? Maybe not the FBI - I tend to believe they are looking out for our best interest more than the Arab Muslim population in the US.

I see both sides of the argument, but it is the Muslim Radicals who are all about the Suicide attacks - if you choose not to call them Muslims I am all right with that as well- but they seem to think they are.

I will also make it very clear, that the only people I wanted profiled are people like Hasan who a year in advance spent a month speaking with AL Queda Affiliate tied to 9/11 - research project or not - my arse on that one- he needed to be profiled and interviewed immediately based upon that and it would have saved lives.

As far as Muslim in the military or prison or in the communities, I could care less what they believe in as long as it is peaceful and not leaning towards being sympethetic to a cause that killed over 3K people in NYC and countless soldiers in the last 8 years.

They had better start speaking out as they have, loosing the FBI partnership has them concerned rightfully so.

[MojoRisen]

I wouldn't want to go and burst Mojo's bubble by the fact that there were a bunch of Muslim leaders that in the past few days have spoken out not only against what this crackpot did, but also expressed their fears about the mentality that Mojo has shown for two threads now in terms of profiling and preventing people from serving in the military.

And FWIW, there have been American Muslims that have served their country with conviction and full beliefs in their mission and country without it conflicting with their religous beliefs for over 70 years.

I think HASAN's point is this was before we are being aggressive with Muslim nations. Everyone is an idividual, i just see their faith snow balling in the wrong direction -he claims there will be more adverse events do to the pressure Muslim soldiers have in killing other Muslim's - it is not the Viet Cong this time around if you get my point. This guy was a major in the Military and had contact with many Muslim soldiers- should we just sweep what he says under the rug??? It isn't personal but if they are starting to turn, they need to be interviewed and this trend needs to be addressed so all of them and us can move on.

[Pricetag]

Mojo, could you please define that "profile" verb you keep throwing out there?

[MojoRisen]

Let's just say interviewed, background investigated potentially if there is reason, speak with collegues, understand their political views, know them more than just a number or another soldier. Mostly interviewed as I can get that they don't want to kill other muslims and things in their views may have changed from the time they joined etc. What made them join the Military, benefits and money, or killing other muslims, patriotism?? etc. etc.

It would be like me attacking the Vatican because they decided America was evil and attacked us.

As for civilians, I am pretty sure they are already being watched and profiles are being built. Right or Wrong, the FBI see's it as a serious threat... They have more information than the average Joe on this, and thier point of view is kind of scary.

remember the Muslim back in like 2002 when we started our assult on the taliban killed like 10+ soldiers yelling god is great- with a hand granade. This is not the first time a Muslim American Soldier has turned and comitted mass murder on other soldiers.

[MojoRisen]

and hey, I am not trying to incite anything here it is a touchy subject - but to say this is isolated event is not accurate.

Sgt. Asan Akbar, a Muslim American soldier with the 326th Engineer Battalion, had an “attitude problem.”

According to his superiors and acquaintances, Akbar’s attitude was bitterly anti-American and staunchly pro-Muslim. So how did this devout follower of the so-called Religion of Peace work out his attitudinal problems last weekend?

By lobbing hand grenades and aiming his M-4 automatic rifle into three tents filled with sleeping commanding officers at the 101st Airborne Division’s 1st Brigade operations center in Kuwait.

Akbar is the lone suspect being detained in the despicable attack, which left more than a dozen wounded and one dead. Surviving soldiers say Akbar, found cowering in a bunker with shrapnel injuries, was overheard ranting after the assault: "You guys are coming into our countries, and you're going to rape our women and kill our children.”

“Our?” At least there’s no doubt about where this Religion of Peace practitioner’s true loyalties lie.

Naturally, apologists for Islam-gone-awry are hard at work dismissing this traitorous act of murder as an “isolated, individual act and not an _expression of faith.”

But such sentiments are willfully blind and recklessly p.c.

Sgt. Akbar is not the only MSWA – Muslim Soldier With Attitude – suspected of infiltrating our military, endangering our troops and undermining national security:

*Ali A. Mohamed. Mohamed, a major in the Egyptian army, immigrated to the U.S. in 1986 and joined the U.S. Army while a resident alien. This despite being on a State Department terrorist watch list before securing his visa. An avowed Islamist, he taught classes on Muslim culture to U.S. Special Forces at Fort Bragg, N.C., and obtained classified military documents. He was granted U.S. citizenship over the objections of the CIA.

A former classmate, Jason T. Fogg, recalled that Mohamed was openly critical of the American military. “To be in the U.S. military and have so much hate toward the U.S. was odd. He never referred to America as his country."

Soon after he was honorably discharged from the Army in 1989, Mohamed hooked up with Osama bin Laden as an escort, trainer, bagman, and messenger. Mohamed used his U.S. passport to conduct surveillance at the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi; he later pled guilty to conspiring with bin Laden to “attack any Western target in the Middle East” and admitted his role in the 1998 African embassy bombings that killed more than 200 people, including a dozen Americans.

Ain’t multiculturalism grand?

*Semi Osman. An ethnic Lebanese born in Sierra Leone and a Seattle-based Muslim cleric, Osman served in a naval reserve fueling unit based in Tacoma, Wash. He had access to fuel trucks similar to the type used by al Qaeda in the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers, which killed 19 U.S. airmen and wounded nearly 400 other Americans.

Osman was arrested last May as part of a federal investigation into the establishment of a terrorist training camp in Bly, Oregon. Osman recently pleaded guilty to a weapons violation and the feds dropped immigration charges against him in exchange for his testimony.

Ain’t open borders grand?

*John Muhammad. The accused Beltway sniper and Muslim convert was a member of the Army’s 84th Engineering Company. In an eerie parallel to the Akbar case, Muhammad is suspected of throwing a thermite grenade into a tent housing 16 of his fellow soldiers as they slept before the ground-attack phase of Gulf War I in 1991. Muhammad’s superior, Sgt. Kip Berentson, told both Newsweek and the Seattle Times that he immediately suspected Muhammad, who was “trouble from day one.”

Curiously, Muhammad was admitted to the Army despite being earlier court-martialed for willfully disobeying orders, striking another noncommissioned officer, wrongfully taking property, and being absent without leave while serving in the Louisiana National Guard.

Although Muhammad was led away in handcuffs and transferred to another company pending charges for the grenade attack, an indictment never materialized. Muhammad was honorably discharged from the Army in 1994. Eight years later, he was arrested in the 21-day Beltway shooting spree that left 10 dead and three wounded.

Ain’t tolerance grand?

*Jeffrey Leon Battle. A former Army reservist, Battle was indicted in October 2002 for conspiring to levy war against the United States and “enlisting in the Reserves to receive military training to use against America.” According to the Justice Department,[PDF] he planned to wage war against American soldiers in Afghanistan.

Ain’t diversity grand?

“It's bad enough we have to worry about enemy forces, but now we have to worry about our own guys," Spc. Autumn Simmer told the Los Angeles Times this week after the assault on the 101st Airborne. The Islamist infiltration of our troops is scandalous. Not one more American, soldier or civilian, must be sacrificed at the altar of multiculturalism, diversity, open borders, and tolerance of the murderous “attitude” of Jihad.

Michelle Malkin [email her] is author of Invasion: How America Still Welcomes Terrorists, Criminals, and Other Foreign Menaces to Our Shores. Click here for Peter Brimelow’s review. Click here for Michelle Malkin's website.

[yermom]

she's right. we should round up all the Arabs in our country and put them in camps. Chinese too, or whatever Michelle Malkin is.

[MojoRisen]

I feel for the Muslims who are fighting and patriotic, I can see the conflict if they are practicing muslims as the Koran states that if they kill another believer they are pretty much going to hell. Should google a book called the muslim mafia, scary stuff going on with the CAIR and I can see why the FBI has severed ties now.

That is all I have to say about this stuff, I feel for those guys but we got to take this more serious than we do, as I can see the conflict for the Muslim soldiers.

[Condescending Sooner]

I feel for the Muslims who are fighting and patriotic, I can see the conflict if they are practicing muslims as the Koran states that if they kill another believer they are pretty much going to hell. Should google a book called the muslim mafia, scary stuff going on with the CAIR and I can see why the FBI has severed ties now.

That is all I have to say about this stuff, I feel for those guys but we got to take this more serious than we do, as I can see the conflict for the Muslim soldiers.

Why doesn't this apply when they drive a truck bomb into a crowd?

[Scott D]

I think HASAN's point is this was before we are being aggressive with Muslim nations. Everyone is an idividual, i just see their faith snow balling in the wrong direction -he claims there will be more adverse events do to the pressure Muslim soldiers have in killing other Muslim's - it is not the Viet Cong this time around if you get my point. This guy was a major in the Military and had contact with many Muslim soldiers- should we just sweep what he says under the rug??? It isn't personal but if they are starting to turn, they need to be interviewed and this trend needs to be addressed so all of them and us can move on.

I understand your point completely. My point is that Hasan would have been just as likely to attempt an act of violence even if he wasn't in the military. He could have been a shoe shine guy at the airport and because he is/was clearly mentally unstable (as previous fitness reports have shown) he would have been likely to if not do an act on the level he did, he likely would have been involved in a violent crime at some point.

Method of how one comes into a religion can be considered another process. If we are wary of individuals who convert to Islam while in prison, should we not be wary of those who claim to convert to other religions while in prison as well? There have been plenty of criminals who have "converted" to (insert a religion here) in prison, who after getting out continue to participate in violent crimes. Religion obviously isn't at the root of why they continue to partake in violent crimes, but yet they do. Clearly something in their heads are broken.

I guess realistically, my thing with Hasan is that I think to a point concern over his particular religious views is understandable and valid. I also think beyond that point it cannot be used as a scapegoat by either he and his lawyer, nor by those seeking to negatively impact a portion of our society due to their beliefs.

As for FBI profiling, hell J. Edgar Hoover had a file on my Grandfather, who was never anything more than a hard working man who raised himself up from a plantation born boy in North Carolina to one of the more powerful minority voices in labor unions back in the 50s-60s. But between his labor position, and participating in marches with Dr. King there is a file on him as a "troublemaker".

Also, in a way the way you present Hasan's stance isn't much different than the stance that some portions of the American population had about World War II prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and even then you still had a segment of the population that sympathized to a degree with Germany.

[Piware]

They don't have a problem killing each other in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, market places crowded with women and children, hospitals for pregnant women and the list goes on ad nauseum. Let's just call it what it is ~ they are not suicide bombers, they are mass homicide bombers.

Perhaps it is merely concidental (and I don't believe that for a second) but something in their little heads is just not wired quite right.

I just wonder how many more innocent people are going to have to die before folks stop worrying about being politically correct.

[proud gonzo]

Uh... do you all realize that the word jihad means "struggle"? Jihad is a religious duty of Islam and it means to strive in the way of God, so really 100% of mosques ought to be preaching jihad or they're doing it wrong. Jihad means to struggle to improve one's self and society.

The principle of Jihad itself is not evil or anti-american. Muslims who twist jihad to be something violent and intolerant are "Muslims" in the same way that Fred Phelps is a "Christian". (...Actually, it'd be more accurate to say they're like the Christians who went on the Crusades way back when.)

[LosAngelesSooner]

I can buy that. I also happen to think that this nut went in search of imams and religious dogma to fit his justifications for these acts, not the other way around. You can find f*ckin' crazy anywhere and anytime...secular or religious.^^^ THIS.

[JohnnyMack]

I can buy that. I also happen to think that this nut went in search of imams and religious dogma to fit his justifications for these acts, not the other way around. You can find f*ckin' crazy anywhere and anytime...secular or religious.

I happen to disagree. In fact I don't think your argument makes a ton of sense. To me you're being awfully dismissive of this guys record of making incendiary statements concerning his religious/political views. Statements that had happened over a period of years, not weeks. It's not like his attitude was some new found revelation. Now I'm not saying he may not have had some verifiable mental problems, but keep in mind this guy served at Walter Reed for a long period and even then he was espousing these views when he wasn't in line to go into combat. Now once he was transferred to Ft. Hood and scheduled for deployment he did appear to "snap" mentally, but I'm not buying that this was the actions of a purely crazy man who happened to be a Muslim.

[proud gonzo]

I can buy that. I also happen to think that this nut went in search of imams and religious dogma to fit his justifications for these acts, not the other way around. You can find f*ckin' crazy anywhere and anytime...secular or religious.

I happen to disagree. In fact I don't think your argument makes a ton of sense. To me you're being awfully dismissive of this guys record of making incendiary statements concerning his religious/political views. Statements that had happened over a period of years, not weeks. It's not like his attitude was some new found revelation. Now I'm not saying he may not have had some verifiable mental problems, but keep in mind this guy served at Walter Reed for a long period and even then he was espousing these views when he wasn't in line to go into combat. Now once he was transferred to Ft. Hood and scheduled for deployment he did appear to "snap" mentally, but I'm not buying that this was the actions of a purely crazy man who happened to be a Muslim.
Okay, so you're saying that you disagree he went searching for a religion that justified his crazy, which means he must have already BEEN that religion. And most people who aren't the "i'm going to look for a religion that suits me" are born into the religion--whatever they grew up with. Sounds like that's the reasoning you're advocating. So wouldn't that be "a crazy man who just happened to be a Muslim"?

[MojoRisen]

This guy was heavily involved in the War on Terror - not just some crazy guy.

[JohnnyMack]

Okay, so you're saying that you disagree he went searching for a religion that justified his crazy, which means he must have already BEEN that religion. And most people who aren't the "i'm going to look for a religion that suits me" are born into the religion--whatever they grew up with. Sounds like that's the reasoning you're advocating. So wouldn't that be "a crazy man who just happened to be a Muslim"?

Why does he have to be crazy in the first place? Why can't he be simply a murderer? You see how you marginalize the actions of the shooter when you do that?

[Curly Bill]

The guy was a Muslim, and he was a terrorist = Muslim Terrorist

Dang peeps, see how easy this is to piece together?

[Curly Bill]

Why does he have to be crazy in the first place? Why can't he be simply a murderer? You see how you marginalize the actions of the shooter when you do that?

Bingo!

[delhalew]

I've got find some hard copy on this, but as a Muslim this guy seems to have been fast tracked. Just over 5 years to achieve Major. Some of our soldiers correct me please. I thought that took ten years for your average West Point grad. This guy had a bad jacket. Has had a bad jacket for years.

All his transgressions were overlooked because our weak, PC mentality has infiltrated even our military.

Our gov now says "man made disasters" and "enemy combatant" instead of muslim extremist and terrorist attach.

The war on terror is over. We lost. All because we don't have the stones to call it like we see it.

[tommieharris91]

Our gov now says "man made disasters" and "enemy combatant" instead of muslim extremist and terrorist attach.


What's wrong with calling them the enemy?

[delhalew]

What's wrong with calling them the enemy?

Nothing. It's more a refusal to admit when we are dealing with a Muslim who happens to be an extremist.

The enemy combatant was a bad choice on my part, as it is usually used in reference to the theater of operations in which enemy combatant is perfectly descriptive.

[proud gonzo]

Why does he have to be crazy in the first place? Why can't he be simply a murderer? You see how you marginalize the actions of the shooter when you do that?To me, crazy means that your morals/ethics/perspective don't line up with those of normal sane people. So being a murderer means in a way you're crazy. "Crazy" doesn't necessarily mean a person has no control over their actions. So no, I don't see how that marginalizes the actions of the shooter.

[JohnnyMack]

To me, crazy means that your morals/ethics/perspective don't line up with those of normal sane people. So being a murderer means in a way you're crazy. "Crazy" doesn't necessarily mean a person has no control over their actions. So no, I don't see how that marginalizes the actions of the shooter.

So basically anybody that kills anyone is by your rather broad definition, "crazy".

[proud gonzo]

So basically anybody that kills anyone is by your rather broad definition, "crazy".depends on their motives, but if it's intentional and not self-defense, yep. pretty much.

[delhalew]

premeditation is considered in many cases to negate a plea of insanity isn't it?

I think it more about understanding consequences. A sociopath has no conscience. No idea of right and wrong. If you kill a bunch of fellow soldiers because you are a ***** who wanted a free education and a job as shrink, but decided when the military needed you to fulfill your end of the bargain, well that was just to much to ask. You are not insane. You are an ******* who deserves to die. Or live a life of pain, whichever.

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/other-views/story/1333081.html

[MR2-Sooner86]

What's funny is people are saying "crazy" because, correct me if I'm wrong, saying you're "crazy" or "pleading insanity" is nothing more than something done in court and is NOT recognized in the medical community? It has been broken down into bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. and saying "crazy" doesn't cut it anymore unless you're in a court of law, right?

[delhalew]

What's funny is people are saying "crazy" because, correct me if I'm wrong, saying you're "crazy" or "pleading insanity" is nothing more than something done in court and is NOT recognized in the medical community? It has been broken down into bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. and saying "crazy" doesn't cut it anymore unless you're in a court of law, right?

Damn sure doesn't cut it with me.

[JohnnyMack]

Nope. This guy wasn't influenced by his religious beliefs. He was just crazy. :rolleyes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/us/19awlaki.html?_r=2&hp


Born in U.S., a Radical Cleric Inspires Terror

By SCOTT SHANE
Published: November 18, 2009

WASHINGTON — In nearly a dozen recent terrorism cases in the United States, Britain and Canada, investigators discovered the suspects had something in common: a devotion to the message of Anwar al-Awlaki, an eloquent Muslim cleric who has turned the Web into a tool for extremist indoctrination.

Mr. Awlaki, 38, the son of a former agriculture minister and university president in Yemen, has never been accused of planting explosives himself. But experts on terrorism believe his persuasive endorsement of violence as a religious duty, in colloquial, American-accented English, has helped push a series of Western Muslims into terrorism.

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist charged with killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., on Nov. 5, is only the latest suspect accused of perpetrating or plotting violence to be linked to the cleric.

In 2006, for example, a group of Canadian Muslims listened to Mr. Awlaki’s sermons on a laptop a few months before they were charged with plotting attacks in Ontario to have included bombings, shootings, storming the Parliament Building and beheading the Canadian prime minister.

In 2007, one of six men later convicted of plotting to attack Fort Dix in New Jersey was picked up on a surveillance tape raving about Mr. Awlaki’s audio clips. “You gotta hear this lecture,” said the plotter, Shain Duka. Mr. Duka called the cleric’s interpretation of Muslim duties “the truth, no holds barred, straight how it is!”

Last year, Mr. Awlaki exchanged public letters on the Web with Al Shabaab, a Somali Islamist group that has attracted recruits among young Somali-Americans living in Minnesota. The message from Al Shabaab praised the cleric as “one of the very few scholars” who “defend the honor of the mujahideen.”

“Allah knows how many of the brothers and sisters have been affected by your work,” it said.

Evan Kohlmann, a counterterrorism researcher who has testified in terrorism trials in the United States and United Kingdom, said Mr. Awlaki’s work had also turned up in cases in Chicago and Atlanta and in at least seven in the United Kingdom.

“Al-Awlaki condenses the Al Qaeda philosophy into digestible, well-written treatises,” Mr. Kohlmann said. “They may not tell people how to build a bomb or shoot a gun. But he tells them who to kill, and why, and stresses the urgency of the mission.”

For at least a decade, counterterrorism officials have had a wary eye on Mr. Awlaki, an American citizen now living in Yemen. His contacts with three of the Sept. 11 hijackers, at mosques where he served in San Diego and Falls Church, Va., remain a perplexing mystery about the 2001 attacks, said Philip Zelikow, who was executive director of the national 9/11 commission.

But in recent years, concerns have focused on Mr. Awlaki’s influence via his Web site, his Facebook page and many booklets and CDs carrying his message, including a text called “44 Ways to Support Jihad.”

Mr. Awlaki’s current site, www.anwar-alawlaki.com, went offline after he was linked to Major Hasan, apparently because a series of Web hosting companies took it down. The home page on Wednesday displayed a Muslim greeting and a promise: “The Web site will be back to normal with a few days time.”

Starting late last year, Major Hasan sought religious advice from the cleric in e-mail messages intercepted by American intelligence. He had seen Mr. Awlaki preach at the Virginia mosque in 2001.

In July, the month Major Hasan was transferred to Fort Hood, Mr. Awlaki posted a blistering attack on his Web site denouncing Muslim soldiers who would fight against other Muslims, a conflict that preoccupied Major Hasan, who was facing deployment to Afghanistan.

“What kind of twisted fight is this?” Mr. Awlaki wrote on “Imam Anwar’s Blog.” A Muslim soldier who follows orders to kill Muslims, he wrote, “is a heartless beast, bent of evil, who sells his religion for a few dollars.”

After the Fort Hood shootings, Mr. Awlaki called Major Hasan a hero. “The only way a Muslim could Islamically justify serving as a soldier in the U.S. Army,” he wrote on his blog, “is if his intention is to follow the footsteps of men like Nidal.”

The question of what to do about terror propagandists like Mr. Awlaki is complex. His writings, though they encourage violence, are protected by the First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech, legal authorities say.

Moreover, even as they fuel extremism, Web sites like his can be a valuable counterterrorism tool, because intelligence analysts use them to track those who, like Major Hasan, visit a site, post comments or e-mail its creators.

“The debate has gone on for a long time: take these sites down or leave them up to gather information,” said Brian Fishman, a consultant to several government agencies on terrorism.

Mr. Awlaki was born in New Mexico in 1971, where his father, Nasser al-Awlaki, was studying agricultural economics. After studying Islam in Yemen, Anwar, too, pursued an American education, earning a bachelor’s degree in civil engineering from Colorado State University and a master’s in education at San Diego State. While in San Diego, he was arrested for soliciting prostitutes, law enforcement records show.

At a San Diego mosque where he was an imam, Mr. Awlaki met two future hijackers, Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi. In early 2001, Mr. Awlaki moved to the Virginia mosque, attended by Mr. Hazmi and a third hijacker, Hani Hanjour. The 9/11 panel described the connection as suspicious. Law enforcement officials say they strongly doubted Mr. Awlaki knew of the plot, though they could not prove it.

While in the United States, Mr. Awlaki presented a moderate public face. A month after the Sept. 11 attacks, as imam at Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Virginia, he told The New York Times that he would no longer tolerate “inflammatory” rhetoric. The article said Mr. Awlaki “is held up as a new generation of Muslim leader capable of merging East and West.”

Johari Abdul-Malik, imam of the Virginia mosque, said Mr. Awlaki’s sermons were accessible, often witty explorations of Koran passages. “We could have all been duped,” he said. “But I think something happened to him, and he changed his views.”

One thing that happened, after he left the United States in 2002 for London and then Yemen, was eighteen months in a Yemeni prison. He has publicly blamed the United States for pressuring Yemeni authorities to keep him locked up and has said he was questioned by F.B.I. agents there.

Since his release in December 2007, his message has been even more overtly supportive of violence. In “44 Ways to Support Jihad,” he showed a wry awareness of intelligence agencies’ interest in him and his writings.

“The only ones who are spending the money and time translating Jihad literature are the Western intelligence services,” he wrote in English, “and too bad, they would not be willing to share it with you.”

[yermom]

Nope. This guy wasn't influenced by his religious beliefs. He was just crazy. :rolleyes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/us/19awlaki.html?_r=2&hp

he may have been influenced by that cleric... they aren't all calling for violence, as far as i know. if they were what would the point of that article be?

this ****er is basically on the same plane as Charlie Manson

[MojoRisen]

I really can't see why people would stick thier heads in the sand on this..... It is not traditional but pretty clear this guy was Muslim and acted radically in the words of this Radical cleric whom he had watched provide sermons in VIrginia and was in contact with - saying that Muslim American SOldiers are evil and should kill other Americans - yeah no influence, then the cleric says Hasan is a hero! Yeah Religion had nothing to do with it.

[yermom]

who's head is in the sand?

there is a difference between a group of Muslims and ALL muslims

[C&CDean]

How about we just say a "buttload of muslims?"

[JohnnyMack]

he may have been influenced by that cleric... they aren't all calling for violence, as far as i know. if they were what would the point of that article be?

this ****er is basically on the same plane as Charlie Manson

At no point did I say (at least I hope I didn't) that ALL Muslims are crazy. My point is, as it has always been, that this act of violence was in part, if not entirely, driven by Hasan's religious beliefs.

[yermom]

How about we just say a "buttload of muslims?"

that's not very meaningful. a "buttload" of Mexicans are illegals, does that mean every Mexican should be harassed? a "buttload" of blacks are in gangs...

[C&CDean]

Where there's smoke...

[C&CDean]

A commentary by someone:

Can a good Muslim be a good American?


I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia .

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no.. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. (Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.)

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.


Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

Perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.

[yermom]

you want me to post retarded crap from the Bible too?

[MrJimBeam]

Tim McVeigh read the Turner Diaries and hung around white separatist. Was he influenced by this or crazy?

The common denominator with terroist who blow up markets full of women and children in Baghdad and Army psychologist who shoot up soldiers waiting to deploy is Islam.

[SoonerProphet]

ah yes, the intellectual power of spam emails. bumper stickers for those whose attention spans surpass 30 seconds.

[sooner_born_1960]

Being spam doesn't automatically make it wrong.

[SoonerProphet]

well, some people used to put Catholic or Jew in the same context as the spam email. it was retarded then and equally retarded now.

[yermom]

Tim McVeigh read the Turner Diaries and hung around white separatist. Was he influenced by this or crazy?

The common denominator with terroist who blow up markets full of women and children in Baghdad and Army psychologist who shoot up soldiers waiting to deploy is Islam.

the Catholics were doing it in the UK not too long ago too

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

I've got find some hard copy on this, but as a Muslim this guy seems to have been fast tracked. Just over 5 years to achieve Major. Some of our soldiers correct me please. I thought that took ten years for your average West Point grad. This guy had a bad jacket. Has had a bad jacket for years.

All his transgressions were overlooked because our weak, PC mentality has infiltrated even our military.

Our gov now says "man made disasters" and "enemy combatant" instead of muslim extremist and terrorist attach.

The war on terror is over. We lost. All because we don't have the stones to call it like we see it.

He had advanced degrees (MD). I think that means he probably came into the active military as a Capt. So 5 yrs => 1 promotion. And from the link, he probably got some additional credit to O-4 (major)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformed_Services_University_of_the_Health_Scienc es

[C&CDean]

you want me to post retarded crap from the Bible too?

Only if Christians are running around doing the retarded ****.

[C&CDean]

well, some people used to put Catholic or Jew in the same context as the spam email. it was retarded then and equally retarded now.

Even you, sitting in your intellectually elevated longer-than-30-second-attention-span-think-chamber can see that there are a LOT - and by a LOT I mean 100's of thousands (or more) muslims in the world willing to kill and/or die for their spiritual leaders. No?

How many catholics or jews do you know who will blow themselves up to murder a bunch of innocent people?

Yeah, you're the intellectual alright.

[SoonerProphet]

Even you, sitting in your intellectually elevated longer-than-30-second-attention-span-think-chamber can see that there are a LOT - and by a LOT I mean 100's of thousands (or more) muslims in the world willing to kill and/or die for their spiritual leaders. No?

How many catholics or jews do you know who will blow themselves up to murder a bunch of innocent people?

Yeah, you're the intellectual alright.

So you have polled hundreds of thousands of muslims and have reached a non-biased, fact based assessment that this goes down.

Additionally, the intellectual genius of your ever so thoughtful spam wasn't about blowing **** up but being an American.

Yeah, you're the spam emailing blowhard alright.

[C&CDean]

So you have polled hundreds of thousands of muslims and have reached a non-biased, fact based assessment that this goes down.

Additionally, the intellectual genius of your ever so thoughtful spam wasn't about blowing **** up but being an American.

Yeah, you're the spam emailing blowhard alright.

I don't need to poll muslims. There's enough of them already engaged in terrorist crap, and enough of them in training to become terrorists, and enough of them dancing in the streets every time an American or Jew dies, and enough of them thwarted in terrorist plots, and enough of them who have already murdered thousands of people to tell me what I need to know. It doesn't take science or a scientist.

And it wasn't my spam. It was somebody elses. I presented it as such. All that being said, it doesn't make it not true. Can you refute anything about the spam and what it says?

[SoonerProphet]

And it wasn't my spam. It was somebody elses. I presented it as such. All that being said, it doesn't make it not true. Can you refute anything about the spam and what it says?

Socially - no.. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

If you want me to refute this sh*t as if it has some kinda basis in fact you have gone off the deep end.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt

Really, the Constitution is based on Biblical principles?

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. (Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.)


They must be unaware in Ankara, Jakarta, and Islamabad.

Seriously, that spam is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D and I can't believe someone would give it a moment of serious thought.

[C&CDean]

Have you studied the Koran?

[SoonerProphet]

Have you studied the Koran?

have you? or have you just read other's interpretations of verse? just like any books with claims from a higher being it can be twisted to mean many things. and yes, i have read many chapters and many interpretations, from the benign to the hateful.

[C&CDean]

have you? or have you just read other's interpretations of verse? just like any books with claims from a higher being it can be twisted to mean many things. and yes, i have read many chapters and many interpretations, from the benign to the hateful.

Nope. I've never even seen one that I know of. I just see the folks out there killing people and then praising allah for it.

Now I have read on some of the Bible. And yes, I completely agree that folks twist scripture to fit their needs. It's the primary reason I don't darken the door at the church house. I ain't much on organized religion at all. That being said, it ain't the christians blowing **** up and killing innocent folks. It's the muslims, and there's a buttload of them doing it, and a buttload more willing/wanting to. That is fact. How much is a buttload? Don't know, but it's a lot.

[JohnnyMack]

I just don't know how anyone at this point can try and disassociate the actions of Hasan from Islam. That's all I was getting at. I just want a straight answer from someone who thinks his belief system played no role in that attack.

[yermom]

i just don't think it gets us anywhere.

if anythng, i doubt the government wants to admit publicly that any act of terrorism was successful inside the US

the idea that PC BS is what caused all this is more of what i have a problem with.

[JohnnyMack]

i just don't think it gets us anywhere.

if anythng, i doubt the government wants to admit publicly that any act of terrorism was successful inside the US

the idea that PC BS is what caused all this is more of what i have a problem with.

I just don't see why so many people have a tough time calling a spade a spade. You can't say, "yeah, that guy was likely driven by his belief system" but you can rail against those who accuse PC of preventing the attack from taking place? Your post seems kind of contrarian. Want a do over?

[yermom]

how do they prevent it? not give any Muslim guns?