The players are free to criticize according to Stoops.

[adoniijahsooner]

What do you guys think about this quote from the presser?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/OU/article.aspx?subjectid=92&articleid=20091110_92_0_Oklaho862718


On the perception that when things go wrong, the players are blamed:

"Here's the problem with that: don't ask us questions, then. You want to ask me what went wrong, I'm supposed to say, 'Well, everything's our fault?' Then I can't answer the question if you want me to answer it truthfully. You know, if a guy can't go when (the snap count) is on 1, what am I to do? There are some things that are our fault, always. And there are some things that players gotta handle, too. Something you prepare for all week and you don't handle it, well, who's fault is that? And it's always gonna be both of us.

"So don't ask a question if you don't want the right answer. And don't go criticizing if we give you the right answer and it is on them. As you said, you're fair, criticize us. Because ultimately, we've got to get 'em to do it right. In the end, it's always the two of you. End of story, and it'll be that way — it'll be that way until they quit playing football."

But sneaks in a disclaimer for his assistants


On if the offensive coaching staff should be off limits to criticism because of their success in 2008:

"We're never off limits. Shoot, we all know that. So no, in the end, we'll all be criticized. You're only as good as your last game. that's how it goes. All of us in this profession are very aware of that. In the end, they've had a lot to juggle through the year. Defensively, we've had one injury. All the other ones have been to the offense. So they've had a lot to juggle, and certain parts of the year, they've managed it well, other times we haven't. I think as much of anything, some of the discipline issues when you look at penalties, to me, are issues with our players that need to make improvement there."

[C&CDean]

Pretty much sums it up. Our players ain't getting it done. Any 9-year old can see that. I just wish Stoops would quit *****footing around and throw them under the ****ing bus. Where some of them deserve to be.

[adoniijahsooner]

I don't think he should throw anyone under the bus. It appears that the team concept is lost on many of us. Players, coaches, offense, defense, special teams, trainers and even the AD are involved in the success of the Oklahoma Sooners. I am really tired of the finger-pointing and even all the talking by the coaches, when it comes to what's wrong this year.

Yes, I believe KW runs his mouth too much. Earlier he says that D. Miller was an immature young man, and that was completely uncalled for. If the players have a problem keep it in house, and let the people guess and argue as to what the problems are.

This is why we are struggling this year, because everyone wants to ambigously point fingers at everyone but themselves. Why not say, "We will do better."?

[tanjou]

Alan Greenspan-esque.

[StoopTroup]

None of it will put a "W" where there is a "L".

Bring on aggie.

[NormanPride]

I don't think he should throw anyone under the bus. It appears that the team concept is lost on many of us. Players, coaches, offense, defense, special teams, trainers and even the AD are involved in the success of the Oklahoma Sooners. I am really tired of the finger-pointing and even all the talking by the coaches, when it comes to what's wrong this year.

Yes, I believe KW runs his mouth too much. Earlier he says that D. Miller was an immature young man, and that was completely uncalled for. If the players have a problem keep it in house, and let the people guess and argue as to what the problems are.

This is why we are struggling this year, because everyone wants to ambigously point fingers at everyone but themselves. Why not say, "We will do better."?

Stoops has tried that but nobody wants to hear it. "We have to get better at our preparation, our execution." "We have to concentrate harder." etc, etc. But then all the whiny people on messageboards have to know the reason every snap went the way it did. Fact of the matter, Jones had a ****ty game. Also, Trent shouldn't have pushed that guy. Frank was a dumas, and Jarvis got jumpy. Then when the coaches answer questions it's "OH SNAP THAT'S COLD, SON" or "UNDER THE BUS TEH GO, LOL"

[badger]

One college football memory that stuck with me more than others was the time I sat next to a coaches box upstairs. There was a clear glass wall between us and these coaches. Whenever something went right on the field, these coaches went more nuts than anybody else in the stadium. When a ref made a call against this team's players, these coaches were more angry than anyone in the stadium. When something went horribly wrong on the field, nobody sounded more upset or disappointed than these coaches

(and I was quite surprised that the glass didn't break that day based on how much pounding it endured)

The reason that stuck with me is because I think it showed how little control the coaches have once that game actually starts. You can coach the players up, yell at them more, make them run sprints if they mouth off, or bench them if they aren't as good as another player in practice. But, once the game starts, it's up to the kids to execute the plays.

Lots of pressure, isn't it? Relying on some teens and 20-somethings to earn your million-plus paychecks? No wonder those coaches continually went nuts upstairs.

[FaninAma]

I heard that part of the interview. Bob had a little bit of an edge to his voice.

[mehip]

Pretty much sums it up. Our players ain't getting it done. Any 9-year old can see that. I just wish Stoops would quit *****footing around and throw them under the ****ing bus. Where some of them deserve to be.

I don't think he needs to verbally throw them, just make them ride the pine.

Of course, it is easier said than done when half your o line is already injured.

[goingoneight]

We're literally down to a walk-on O-line. That can't necessarily be put on the coaches. We're talking...

Cody Kooke: transferred out so he could eat more Kookies (rumor).
Alex Williams: See: above. Probably wasn't going to cut it anyway.
Jason Hannan: Looked to be a soid center in 2008, had to leave for medical reasons.
Simmons: out
Jarvis Jones: out
Habern: still in, but fighting nagging back problems
Williams: overrated at LT, cost himself dearly coming back to learn a new position
Jeffries: I believe it was him who got suspended.
Eldridge: playing out of position... the one bright spot among the blockers, out.

That's not like we just whiffed on 5-star players. Did we miss one or two quality guys? Yeah... even the King did that. Player development? Up until this year, I'd rate Wilson and Patton as incredible at developing (and more importantly keeping) O-Linemen.

It's just bad luck and rebuilding. Literally adding insult to injury.

[Sasakwa]

Pretty much sums it up. Our players ain't getting it done

But the coaches that get paid millions of dollars to ensure they get it done are?

[rainiersooner]

I have no problem with what Stoops said. What I read there was that it takes two people to screw a game up - the coaches and the players and every loss is caused by a combination of failures. If the majority of linemen who have played under Stoops get the snap count right, and one lineman continue to get it wrong - who do you blame?

[rainiersooner]

But the coaches that get paid millions of dollars to ensure they get it done are?

I cannot understand for the life of me why people care what these coaches are paid. It is completely irrelevant.

[badger]

I cannot understand for the life of me why people care what these coaches are paid. It is completely irrelevant.

As I've said before, it must drive these coaches crazy that their future millions are in the hands of teens and 20-somethings. Thus, when teens and 20-somethings make them millions, they go crazy up in the boxes :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Stoops has tried that but nobody wants to hear it. "We have to get better at our preparation, our execution." "We have to concentrate harder." etc, etc. But then all the whiny people on messageboards have to know the reason every snap went the way it did.

Because the fans feel that someone let them down, and so they want names. The fans feel they are entitled to answers because they paid the price of tickets or took the time to sit in their E-Z Chairs and watch the game.

If Stoops came out begging forgiveness, the fans would love it. But it won't make the team play any better.

As long as the coaches and players try as hard as they can to win, it's all good with me.


I cannot understand for the life of me why people care what these coaches are paid. It is completely irrelevant.

It should only be relevant when his contract comes up for renewal. If the university decides that he is worth the money, then fine. I don't think he is, but if the university has renewed his contract, then he is our coach and all we can ask is that he do his best.

[PLaw]

Pretty much sums it up. Our players ain't getting it done. Any 9-year old can see that. I just wish Stoops would quit *****footing around and throw them under the ****ing bus. Where some of them deserve to be.

Respectively, disagree. It all begins and ends with coaching, period. Good coaching insures that players do that right thing at the right time. "Well coached" teams are characterized as "making few mistakes". My dad constantly tells me how Bud's teams were machines that had flawless execution and sound fundamentals.

When a player makes a bone headed play, it is generally due to inadequate mental preparation, panic, poor fundamentals, lack of focus, or a poor sense of urgency. These traits are all coached. Sound coaching will find the key to have the players play with confidence, within themselves, and within the scheme.

There is a healthy level of fear that is not present on this team. Players continue to make mental mistakes and the depth chart rarely changes. In the past, this OU staff has demonstrated the ability to find the key to have players perform to the peak of their potential. This season has been frustrating for everyone because the key to that door is still out there.

Sorry, just can't take the easy route here and point the finger at an 18-22 year old kid, call them bone headed or whatever. As with any business relationship, the grunts mirror the actions and attitudes of their managers - and players mirror their coaches.

BOOMER

[PLaw]

I don't think he should throw anyone under the bus. It appears that the team concept is lost on many of us. Players, coaches, offense, defense, special teams, trainers and even the AD are involved in the success of the Oklahoma Sooners. I am really tired of the finger-pointing and even all the talking by the coaches, when it comes to what's wrong this year.

Yes, I believe KW runs his mouth too much. Earlier he says that D. Miller was an immature young man, and that was completely uncalled for. If the players have a problem keep it in house, and let the people guess and argue as to what the problems are.

This is why we are struggling this year, because everyone wants to ambigously point fingers at everyone but themselves. Why not say, "We will do better."?

Bingo - Stand Up Post.

[tanjou]

I cannot understand for the life of me why people care what these coaches are paid. It is completely irrelevant.
I don't think it's that they get paid 3 million or 2 million, but that they are ultimately responsible for the performance of individual players. When those numbers are thrown around I think people are only seeking to highlight the level of performance that is expected and the track record that resulted in that expectation.

Coaches scouted (or hired those that do the scouting), recruited, signed, developed, disciplined, built, supported, corrected, and etc. etc. you get the point, every player on the roster. Mistakes of course happen...

However, when certain events, be they losses, penalties, injuries, etc. happen consistently over a long period of time (years), then the culpability of the only common factor becomes a topic of interest.

This is basic accountability here, most people here have spent lots of time working in traditional business structures. Some messes up once? Fine. More than once, but they have good reasons? Sure, they otherwise do well. Consistently, repeated excuses, and a trend in lower performance? We need to talk.

College athletics are a business, though no one likes to be reminded of it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Respectively, disagree. It all begins and ends with coaching, period. Good coaching insures that players do that right thing at the right time. "Well coached" teams are characterized as "making few mistakes". My dad constantly tells me how Bud's teams were machines that had flawless execution and sound fundamentals.

Yes, and he had 200 players to choose from and almost unlimited practice time. Players had few rights and could be easily pushed around. This isn't the 1950s.


This is basic accountability here, most people here have spent lots of time working in traditional business structures.

Accountable to whom? You? What have you done to make the team accountable to you?

A mid-level office manager at IBM is accountable, but not to me. He is only accountable to his superiors. He doesn't owe me an explanation when things go wrong. His performance is no one's business other than the company's. (Edit: The Obama Administration notwithstanding.)

A coach is accountable to one person and only one person: the AD. As long as Joe C. is all good with Stoops, we have no more say in it.

[rainiersooner]

When a player makes a bone headed play, it is generally due to inadequate mental preparation, panic, poor fundamentals, lack of focus, or a poor sense of urgency. These traits are all coached. Sound coaching will find the key to have the players play with confidence, within themselves, and within the scheme.

Was Mark Bradley's boneheaded play on the punt against USC his fault or the fault of Stoops and his staff? Bradley for the whole part in his career at OU had shown more than adequate mental preparation, good fundamentals, and good focus.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think the coaches or fans should single players out for abuse, but I think there are mistakes that happen that cannot be blamed on the coaches.

[rainiersooner]

I don't think it's that they get paid 3 million or 2 million, but that they are ultimately responsible for the performance of individual players. When those numbers are thrown around I think people are only seeking to highlight the level of performance that is expected and the track record that resulted in that expectation.

Coaches scouted (or hired those that do the scouting), recruited, signed, developed, disciplined, built, supported, corrected, and etc. etc. you get the point, every player on the roster. Mistakes of course happen...

However, when certain events, be they losses, penalties, injuries, etc. happen consistently over a long period of time (years), then the culpability of the only common factor becomes a topic of interest.

This is basic accountability here, most people here have spent lots of time working in traditional business structures. Some messes up once? Fine. More than once, but they have good reasons? Sure, they otherwise do well. Consistently, repeated excuses, and a trend in lower performance? We need to talk.

College athletics are a business, though no one likes to be reminded of it.

Exactly. If someone does not do the job, you fire them. You don't keep them in the same job and just pay them less. You don't complain about how much they're being paid. You fire them. That's my whole point - if people want to make the case the Stoops should be fired, fine. I respectfully disagree, but that is the only case to be made - not that he is paid too much.

[tanjou]

A coach is accountable to one person and only one person: the AD. As long as Joe C. is all good with Stoops, we have no more say in it.
I understand your point, and you are correct: As long as the athletic director (and the people to whom he answers, specifically boosters and the president) is accepting of Stoops performance, he is fine.

We, specifically most people who post on the board, do not have a direct influence on the security of Stoops' job. However, when merchandise sales begin to drop, boosters whine and donate less, advertisers demand smaller contracts, etc. due to his decreased performance, any perceived personal relationship between Castiglione and Stoops will evaporate. That point has certainly not been reached, but seasons like this one, especially if it ends in a typical Stoops fashion, don't help. It has to change or that point will be reached.

We can talk about whether he deserves to be employed all we like; we're fans and we're having fun. Can we change anything? Of course not, at least directly.

I'm sure most of the sunny folk on Soonerfans don't think about how well the team is doing when they buy a new sweatshirt or bumper sticker. I know I do not. But most people who purchase merchandise, attend games, tune in to broadcasts, buy magazines about the team, etc. do. You can call them "fake fans" or whatever, but college football is about MONEY, and when revenues start to trend downward...

[Leroy Lizard]

I understand your point, and you are correct: As long as the athletic director (and the people to whom he answers, specifically boosters and the president) is accepting of Stoops performance, he is fine.

The AD is not accountable to the boosters, the president is. Any booster trying to influence Joe C. on a matter of athletics should be told to go stuff it.


We, specifically most people who post on the board, do not have a direct influence on the security of Stoops' job. However, when merchandise sales begin to drop, boosters whine and donate less, advertisers demand smaller contracts, etc. due to his decreased performance, any perceived personal relationship between Castiglione and Stoops will evaporate. That point has certainly not been reached, but seasons like this one, especially if it ends in a typical Stoops fashion, don't help. It has to change or that point will be reached.

Sure, and if the middle manager screws up, IBM could lose sales. But that doesn't make the middle manager accountable to the public.

So when fans talk about holding a coach accountable, they are wrong. The coach is not accountable to the public unless he does something that directly affects the public, such as a scandal that hurts the image of the university. Losing football games doesn't count.


I'm sure most of the sunny folk on Soonerfans don't think about how well the team is doing when they buy a new sweatshirt or bumper sticker. I know I do not. But most people who purchase merchandise, attend games, tune in to broadcasts, buy magazines about the team, etc. do. You can call them "fake fans" or whatever, but college football is about MONEY, and when revenues start to trend downward...

... it becomes Joe C.'s problem. Not ours.

[wishbonesooner]

Is it just not possible that our staff has just gotten stale? That none of them are doing a bad job, but there needs to be turnover, things shaken up just to bring in new blood, new ideas? Companies that see great success, if they stand pat, the competition catches up. Bob is loyal to his coaches, loyal to a fault. I hope it's not his downfall.

[soonerborn30]

The IBM analogy doesn't hold up because IBM has shareholders to answer to. So yes, if a manager is causing profits to drop, and I own stock in IBM, you bet your sweet arse I have a say in his job status.

Football fans feel the same way: invested in their team. Be it their money (season tickets, merchandise, etc.) or their time (driving to and from, watching on TV, etc.) Is it right for us to feel like the University owes us something? To a point, I think so. But we as consumers have the ultimate power. Stop watching. Stop buying. Stop coming to the games. If you're truly unhappy with the way things are going that's what has to be done.

I suspect not many are ready to take that step yet.

[tanjou]

What I was trying to convey is that when the team starts to suck, profits will start to fall from what the administration knows they can be, and if that happens consistently nothing else matters: a change will be made.

It won't be from an en masse "WE WON'T WATCH FOOTBALL" movement or something else absurd.

I suspect Leroy is trying to communicate a "your bitching doesn't help the team win so support them!" opinion. False dilemma, all that.

[soonerborn30]

It was mentioned several times that we as fans have no say in the matter. But we do. We have all the say actually. Without us, this little machine doesn't run at all. That's what I was saying. Is an all-out boycott going to happen? Probably not. But that's how the fans would have their say in matters.

[Position Limit]

all of this talk about accountability and million dollar coaching salaries. what most beer guzzling overweight sooner fans dont seem to understand is that fooball is a highly profitable business for OU. if stoops went 7-5 every year and that stadium still sold out for games, stoops would still be highly paid. as another poster pointed out, he's accountable to joe c. and nobody else. stoops hold press confrence, sports writer prints article, ads sell, butts fill seats. arbitrary poll comes out, manufactured contraversy, viewership goes up. whatever. i could do a bong hit and run this show...

[SbOrOiNaEnR]

It all begins and ends with coaching, period. Good coaching insures that players do that right thing at the right time. "Well coached" teams are characterized as "making few mistakes". My dad constantly tells me how Bud's teams were machines that had flawless execution and sound fundamentals.


Yes, and he had 200 players to choose from and almost unlimited practice time. Players had few rights and could be easily pushed around. This isn't the 1950s.

Cool! I just figured out how the multi-quote feature works.

Not to go off on a "when I was your age" tangent here, but a 1950s 20-something had a World War II-attitude about him of "If you didn't do your job, your buddy next to you probably gets killed." Add to the fact that most of Bud's early teams were paid-to-play (shhhhhhhh!) veterans, and that half-explains the well-oiled machine that gave us 47 Straight.

FURTHERMORE, how many wheat-fed, rural Oklahoma farm boys did we have on those 40s and 50s teams? I can think of at least 29 guys off the top of my head (all with the last name Burris). You show up early, you get your $hit done, you do it the right way, and you have the utmost respect for your Great White Father.

I do understand that this applies to every generation. A group of Leon Cross-led "49ers" tried to oust Switzer, and I'm sure plenty of 70s and 80s guy look at our players today wondering what it is about their MTVs and their diet sodas that give them such a sense of entitlement.

[SoonerKnight]

Has Stoops proved that he is one hell of a coach? YES! Has the players that are playing for the first time proven they are capable yes! Are the players playing (offense) through some of the worse injuries that OU has seen under Stoops. Are the players young and inexperienced? YES! Let's keep it in perspective! We should not be rebuilding this year but we are. Next year will be tough as well. Remember back in the early 80's the King had his head called for by "OU" fans and he stuck with it and proved them wrong. Stoops is OUr coach and he is doing fine with what has happened to this team!

[Leroy Lizard]

The IBM analogy doesn't hold up because IBM has shareholders to answer to. So yes, if a manager is causing profits to drop, and I own stock in IBM, you bet your sweet arse I have a say in his job status.

You really don't. All you can do is to stomp your feet at the company president to take action, but ultimately it is his decision. You can take action against him, but not the middle manager. We are talking about real accountability here.

Ask Green Bay Packer fan how much control they have over the coach's decision week after week. Sure, they are shareholders, but they have little say in matters.


Football fans feel the same way: invested in their team. Be it their money (season tickets, merchandise, etc.) or their time (driving to and from, watching on TV, etc.) Is it right for us to feel like the University owes us something? To a point, I think so.

Go to a closed practice session and demand to be let in, and you will find out exactly how much the team is accountable to you. They don't have to listen to a frickin' thing you say.

You might FEEL like you have an investment in the team, and you might WISH that that entitles means they SHOULD be accountable to you, but that is as far as it gets.

And frankly, that's good. I don't want the team accountable to the fans. The fans don't know squat, so let those that have been hired to do the job do their job.


I suspect Leroy is trying to communicate a "your bitching doesn't help the team win so support them!" opinion. False dilemma, all that.

No, I am simply saying that the team owes the fans nothing, especially those fans that did not attend the university. They put on a show, it is up to us to attend if we wish. Sure, if we pay for tickets and the fail to put on a show, they are obligated to give us our money back. But we don't on a piece of the team. We are not shareholders.

[Leroy Lizard]

Not to go off on a "when I was your age" tangent here, but a 1950s 20-something had a World War II-attitude about him of "If you didn't do your job, your buddy next to you probably gets killed." Add to the fact that most of Bud's early teams were paid-to-play (shhhhhhhh!) veterans, and that half-explains the well-oiled machine that gave us 47 Straight.

I agree, and today's weenie doesn't hold a candle to the players we had in the past.

But keep in mind that some of the relaxations on discipline are a good thing. These are students, not slaves. Coaches like Darrell Royal treated players like subhumans, which isn't right. These kids are not jumping on grenades; they're playing a sport, which the NCAA defines as an avocation.

Good discipline is a must, but so is respect.

[soonerborn30]

You really don't. All you can do is to stomp your feet at the company president to take action, but ultimately it is his decision. You can take action against him, but not the middle manager. We are talking about real accountability here.

Ask Green Bay Packer fan how much control they have over the coach's decision week after week. Sure, they are shareholders, but they have little say in matters.



Go to a closed practice session and demand to be let in, and you will find out exactly how much the team is accountable to you. They don't have to listen to a frickin' thing you say.

You might FEEL like you have an investment in the team, and you might WISH that that entitles means they SHOULD be accountable to you, but that is as far as it gets.

And frankly, that's good. I don't want the team accountable to the fans. The fans don't know squat, so let those that have been hired to do the job do their job.



No, I am simply saying that the team owes the fans nothing, especially those fans that did not attend the university. They put on a show, it is up to us to attend if we wish. Sure, if we pay for tickets and the fail to put on a show, they are obligated to give us our money back. But we don't on a piece of the team. We are not shareholders.

I think you are missing my point. I'm saying that if enough people get together, any organization can be brought to its knees. The likelihood of that is not very high, but the possibility exists. And the team absolutely owes the fans everything. You think it'd be possible to pay Bob those millions without fan support? No way. To say that we have no say is ludicrous. What do you think boosters are? They're fans. And they have lots of say about what Joe C does.

[Leroy Lizard]

The team is not accountable to the fans, or even boosters. Accountability is a strong word. Just because the fans want a certain play run doesn't mean that the coaching staff must run the play.

A child can get what it wants if he screams and rants loud and long enough. He can get what he want by making the parent's life miserable, just like fans can sometimes get what they want by refusing to purchase products. That doesn't mean the parent is accountable to the child.

If Joe C. caves in to the fans, he is just a weak leader. He needs to make the decisions about what is best for his department with no fan interference.

[East Coast Bias]

Applying business principals to football is interesting and would require firing all the coaches. The business world rewards results, not effort. If a product is bad the market will ensure its failure.It doesn't matter how good the company or products were in the past the market judges what is out there today. Using six-sigma principals and holding administrators accountable for producing a quality product that produces results would seem to indicate we should fire all the coaches. Joe C would certainly be the first to go..............

[King Barry's Back]

Respectively, disagree. It all begins and ends with coaching, period. Good coaching insures that players do that right thing at the right time. "Well coached" teams are characterized as "making few mistakes". My dad constantly tells me how Bud's teams were machines that had flawless execution and sound fundamentals.

When a player makes a bone headed play, it is generally due to inadequate mental preparation, panic, poor fundamentals, lack of focus, or a poor sense of urgency. These traits are all coached. Sound coaching will find the key to have the players play with confidence, within themselves, and within the scheme.

There is a healthy level of fear that is not present on this team. Players continue to make mental mistakes and the depth chart rarely changes. In the past, this OU staff has demonstrated the ability to find the key to have players perform to the peak of their potential. This season has been frustrating for everyone because the key to that door is still out there.

Sorry, just can't take the easy route here and point the finger at an 18-22 year old kid, call them bone headed or whatever. As with any business relationship, the grunts mirror the actions and attitudes of their managers - and players mirror their coaches.

BOOMER

Please don't take this as a personal affront. You seem pretty smart and I respect that.

But...

I just couldn't disagree with you more. In Bud's day, our 3rd and 4th string teams would have been able to line up and play with most teams in the country.

Today, our 3rd team is mostly true freshmen who are trying to preserve their redshirts, and we don't have a 4th string.

Just think about that for a minute.

When you say a player that messes up rides the pine, who are you suggesting should take his place? Because with the O-line and receivers, we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

A hallmark of the Stoops era has been his willingness to hold players accountable by sitting them down when they fail to perform at a high level. THis means players who commit personal fouls come out of games, and take an earfull. This year, on occasion, they've stayed on the field. I wonder why?

This year, honestly, the coaches are facing a dilemma -- Sitting player X for a f-up, means bringing player Y back in the game after he was just benched for some other transgression.

There are no easy answers here.

I think the staff is really scratching their eyeballs out over their inability to bench players just because of lack of warm bodies. Now, if you want to blame our thinness on the coaches, that might stick.

Oh, and another poster had complained about KW calling out a receiver for being "immature." PLs understand that you don't know exactly what happened, and you don't know exactly why KW decided to name names in public, and you don't know what was kept in house.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that the receiver did something outrageous. why do I think this? Because in 10 yrs, these coaches have done very little criticism publicly of their players.

For example, I bet it went down something like this:

KW: You dropped the ball again. You need to give 100 percent on EVERY play. We'd bench you normally, but we're thin, we have to keep you in the game. We need you to step up.

RECEIVER: Coach, you suck. Bob's an F'in idiot. Look at how bad he F'd up this team this year!?! And Landry is a *****. Won't throw me the ball enough cuz he's jealous of the attention I get. ANd the other receivers are pussies too.

Now, a guy like that, is a cancer, and a coach would normally suspend, or even kick him off the team. But because of desperation, in this case during this season, the player keeps getting game-time snaps.

I think KW is desperately looking for a way to hold this player accountable, and isn't finding any good options.

[King Barry's Back]

What I was trying to convey is that when the team starts to suck, profits will start to fall from what the administration knows they can be, and if that happens consistently nothing else matters: a change will be made.

It won't be from an en masse "WE WON'T WATCH FOOTBALL" movement or something else absurd.

I suspect Leroy is trying to communicate a "your bitching doesn't help the team win so support them!" opinion. False dilemma, all that.

I think you're thinking along the right track, but your focusing on the wrong aspect.

Revenues aren't going to change that much (Ticket sales aren't going to change except through long-term failure to win often, Big XII contract dictates most non-ticket revenues), and remember that the University of Oklahoma is not only a non-profit entity, it is actually a government agency.

What will or won't cost Bob Stoops his job, and his asst's their jobs, is wins and losses, plain and simple. (this is of course excluding things like public scandals--which I don't expect to crop up anyway.)

Bob Stoops took us to the top-5 of college football LAST YEAR. And he has had us in the top 10 of college football for practically all of the past decade. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE is going to fire him THIS YEAR for anything to do with on the field performance.

Just like Bud Wilkinson didn't get fired for his 3-6-1 season, Bob Stoops doesn't get fired for this year's record. End of story.

Bob Stoops, however, DEFINITELY WILL get fired if he continues to lose 4 or more games per year. How many years it will take is open for debate, but I'd say his seat gets hot if loses 4 or more games this year and the next two.

I wish him luck on turning things around.

[the_ouskull]

Pretty much sums it up. Our players ain't getting it done. Any 9-year old can see that. I just wish Stoops would quit *****footing around and throw them under the ****ing bus. Where some of them deserve to be.

Agreed.

I don't just want to see this for the current players, but for the future players as well; for those players that think that college football is all about coming to a pretty campus to hook up with Oklahoma girls... notoriously a "good draw" in their own right...

I want them to see some fire in Stoops; some accountability. Sh*t, I want to see the fire back in him. I know he's a dad and sh*t now, but he's a COACH too, and being a dad doesn't pay nearly as well.

...at least not in this state...

the_ouskull

[C&CDean]

Respectively, disagree. It all begins and ends with coaching, period. Good coaching insures that players do that right thing at the right time. "Well coached" teams are characterized as "making few mistakes". My dad constantly tells me how Bud's teams were machines that had flawless execution and sound fundamentals.

When a player makes a bone headed play, it is generally due to inadequate mental preparation, panic, poor fundamentals, lack of focus, or a poor sense of urgency. These traits are all coached. Sound coaching will find the key to have the players play with confidence, within themselves, and within the scheme.

There is a healthy level of fear that is not present on this team. Players continue to make mental mistakes and the depth chart rarely changes. In the past, this OU staff has demonstrated the ability to find the key to have players perform to the peak of their potential. This season has been frustrating for everyone because the key to that door is still out there.

Sorry, just can't take the easy route here and point the finger at an 18-22 year old kid, call them bone headed or whatever. As with any business relationship, the grunts mirror the actions and attitudes of their managers - and players mirror their coaches.

BOOMER

There's so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.

Our coaches have proven time and time again that they can get good players to play. They've proven that moving some people around to unfamiliar positions was a smart thing to do. Look at the number of our players (o-line) playing in the NFL.

Fear? Are you kidding me? If a kid is playing scared, he's going to make even more mistakes. This is football in the 21st Century, not gladiator fights in Rome. A kid needs to have a sense of accountability, but not be scared of making mistakes.

Mental prep, sense of urgency, lack of focus, etc. are NOT coached. It comes from the kid's gut and mind. If he's a fat, lazy slob who doesn't have the gumption to excel, he never will - no matter how good the coaching is.

Finally, the true easy route is doing just what you and a couple others are doing. Blame the coach/s. Buck stops there. They're making the big bucks so it's gotta all be on them.

It's much more difficult to blame the young kids for their own stupid mistakes. Players are not coached to drop passes. Players are not coached to false start and hold on every other play. Players are not coached to whiff on blocks. Players are not coached to be apathetic or lazy. If a player lacks the chutzpah, the mojo, the intangible whatever the hell it is to be a high-performing winner, then that's on the player. Remember 2000? We had a lot of kids on that team who grew up hating Texas and wanting to play at OU. They weren't anywhere as hyped or highly prized as our current guys. However, they wanted to win. They willed themselves to victory. They had "it." Our current group of players don't. Simple as that.

[soonerborn30]

So where do we get "it"? Is "it" at the same store swagger is at?


:D

[Crucifax Autumn]

This thread needs an enema.

Then again, so do a lot of the others lately. Way too many posts that are just flat out full of sh*t!

[tanjou]

I'll tell you what's full of sh*t: Democrats!

[Leroy Lizard]

If that doesn't give the thread an enema, nothing will.

[SoonerKnight]

I'll tell you what's full of sh*t: Democrats!

You must be a Democrat?

[MALE918]

I don't think it's that they get paid 3 million or 2 million, but that they are ultimately responsible for the performance of individual players. When those numbers are thrown around I think people are only seeking to highlight the level of performance that is expected and the track record that resulted in that expectation.

Coaches scouted (or hired those that do the scouting), recruited, signed, developed, disciplined, built, supported, corrected, and etc. etc. you get the point, every player on the roster. Mistakes of course happen...

However, when certain events, be they losses, penalties, injuries, etc. happen consistently over a long period of time (years), then the culpability of the only common factor becomes a topic of interest.

This is basic accountability here, most people here have spent lots of time working in traditional business structures. Some messes up once? Fine. More than once, but they have good reasons? Sure, they otherwise do well. Consistently, repeated excuses, and a trend in lower performance? We need to talk.

College athletics are a business, though no one likes to be reminded of it.

You are correct. I played on some mediocre at best teams growing up. We were pretty descent players not world beaters though. When we got older and got into high school - we were paired with some outstanding coaches. They held us accountable to each other. All the basic drills were the same things we grew up with all along but the discipline was different. Our first game in High School we were blown out. The coaches made notes of every mistake and we ran and ran and ran for each of those. The second game was better but still a loss and still many mistakes. So we ran and ran and ran for each. We knew what the mistakes were and the penalties were clearly defined after our first game. When the running became a real toll we started to break down and fight; pretty soon leaders stepped and started demanding of themselves and us; by about our fifth game the pecking order was in order. In the course of about 5 games these coaches had us playing in ways other coaches over the course of 8 years couldn't get us to do. We vyed for state titles the rest of our High School careers.
This was the same style that was used to break a bunch of individuals down in the military. These are tried and true methods of developing teams. If you follow the great coaches; they have mastered it and no not all coaches use this method.
Now I harken back to a 2000 national championship team with 22 startes. 18 of which were recruited and played for a horrendous john blake team. Essentially the same team outside of 4 players and an entirely new coaching staff. I remember reading the articles about practice during the offseason. The grueling practices and attention to details. I could hear the attitude changes in the words that were spoken. These were not complaints but the words of a team that was building and starting to hold each other accountable. Despite all the mistakes and all the running, etc. They were growing confidence and not just in themselves but each other. There seemed to be a clear pecking order of leadership/role players and everybody respected everybody. Now did B.S do this - not directly for he is primarily a CEO but he did put together a coaching staff that was second to none. A coaching staff that had a clear plan of how to instill accountability and trust in each other. As that coaching staff has disappeared so has the level of accountability trust and leadership.
Now look at other teams. Kansas St this year by and large the same players different results. Alabama under Saban the first year was essentially the players from the previous regime but different results. Forida under Meyer - again essentially same players different results. Texas defense under muschamp. Now look at what has happened to usuc under carroll. As his early coaching staff becomes depleted usuc keeps falling just a little more each year. I would like Bob to evaluate his coaching staff and build one that is stronger in player evaluation and team/accountability development among other things. A head coach is only as good as his coaching staff

[boomermagic]

I don't think he needs to verbally throw them, just make them ride the pine.

Of course, it is easier said than done when half your o line is already injured.


No, It is easy to do just take control of your team and sit their asses down.. This season is pretty much shot to hell anyway.. Put them on the bench.. Bob has a discipline problem he needs to handle it.. Come on Bob earn those millions NOW..

[boomermagic]

I'll tell you what's full of sh*t: Democrats!

I'm a very proud democrat and I see it just the opposite..

[boomermagic]

You are correct. I played on some mediocre at best teams growing up. We were pretty descent players not world beaters though. When we got older and got into high school - we were paired with some outstanding coaches. They held us accountable to each other. All the basic drills were the same things we grew up with all along but the discipline was different. Our first game in High School we were blown out. The coaches made notes of every mistake and we ran and ran and ran for each of those. The second game was better but still a loss and still many mistakes. So we ran and ran and ran for each. We knew what the mistakes were and the penalties were clearly defined after our first game. When the running became a real toll we started to break down and fight; pretty soon leaders stepped and started demanding of themselves and us; by about our fifth game the pecking order was in order. In the course of about 5 games these coaches had us playing in ways other coaches over the course of 8 years couldn't get us to do. We vyed for state titles the rest of our High School careers.
This was the same style that was used to break a bunch of individuals down in the military. These are tried and true methods of developing teams. If you follow the great coaches; they have mastered it and no not all coaches use this method.
Now I harken back to a 2000 national championship team with 22 startes. 18 of which were recruited and played for a horrendous john blake team. Essentially the same team outside of 4 players and an entirely new coaching staff. I remember reading the articles about practice during the offseason. The grueling practices and attention to details. I could hear the attitude changes in the words that were spoken. These were not complaints but the words of a team that was building and starting to hold each other accountable. Despite all the mistakes and all the running, etc. They were growing confidence and not just in themselves but each other. There seemed to be a clear pecking order of leadership/role players and everybody respected everybody. Now did B.S do this - not directly for he is primarily a CEO but he did put together a coaching staff that was second to none. A coaching staff that had a clear plan of how to instill accountability and trust in each other. As that coaching staff has disappeared so has the level of accountability trust and leadership.
Now look at other teams. Kansas St this year by and large the same players different results. Alabama under Saban the first year was essentially the players from the previous regime but different results. Forida under Meyer - again essentially same players different results. Texas defense under muschamp. Now look at what has happened to usuc under carroll. As his early coaching staff becomes depleted usuc keeps falling just a little more each year. I would like Bob to evaluate his coaching staff and build one that is stronger in player evaluation and team/accountability development among other things. A head coach is only as good as his coaching staff


Best post I have seen in a while.. :D

[C&CDean]

No, It is easy to do just take control of your team and sit their asses down.. This season is pretty much shot to hell anyway.. Put them on the bench.. Bob has a discipline problem he needs to handle it.. Come on Bob earn those millions NOW..

Bob has a discipline problem now? I haven't seen anybody hauled off to jail lately.

What Bob has is a bunch of players who have decided to fold the ****ing tent instead of fighting like crazed banshees. Well to be fair, not a "bunch" of players, but an o-line full of them. Unfortunately, it's the most critical part of a successful offense. Sam is gone because of this line. Landry looked like a Pop Warner QB last week because of this line. We're 5-4 because of this line.

If there's anything I will criticize this staff over is their lack of putting a decent place kicker on the field. I guess when you're used to scoring 60 a game, you don't think it's all that important.

[Leroy Lizard]

What Bob has is a bunch of players who have decided to fold the ****ing tent instead of fighting like crazed banshees.

I think they're playing hard. Many are playing out of position and some are probably just not that good. Hopefully they will improve.

[Leroy Lizard]

I would like Bob to evaluate his coaching staff and build one that is stronger in player evaluation and team/accountability development among other things.

Bob should read SoonerFans so he can learn how to coach a football team.


The coaches made notes of every mistake and we ran and ran and ran for each of those.

There are two problems with this statement. At the college level, you do too much of this and players will leave, which partly explains why our OL is so poor this year. You can also run a liability risk if a player gets injured.

Also, college football has changed and I doubt players are treated like this today, at least with few exceptions. Punishing a player for making a mistake makes no sense to me unless his act was purposeful. After all, you wouldn't your professors or bosses treating you like this.

[boomermagic]

Bob has a discipline problem now? I haven't seen anybody hauled off to jail lately.

What Bob has is a bunch of players who have decided to fold the ****ing tent instead of fighting like crazed banshees. Well to be fair, not a "bunch" of players, but an o-line full of them. Unfortunately, it's the most critical part of a successful offense. Sam is gone because of this line. Landry looked like a Pop Warner QB last week because of this line. We're 5-4 because of this line.

If there's anything I will criticize this staff over is their lack of putting a decent place kicker on the field. I guess when you're used to scoring 60 a game, you don't think it's all that important.

What you have described is a discipline problem not a CRIMINAL problem but a discipline problem so yes Bob has one by his own admission.. When senior players lose focus and jump offsides or don't react the way they have been coached for three or four years SIT their asses on the bench.. Discipline them.. Bob does need to earn his millions period..

[C&CDean]

Yeah, and play who? I think Schmitty used up his eligibility, and besides, he's a runt.

[Ground_Attack]

Its called injuries people! The O-Line is decimated, we lost a returning Heisman QB, the best TE in the country and lost our best receiver for a few games. We are playing guys that simply aren't ready or aren't that good on the line (they were "backups" for a reason, a Frosh QB, new receivers (sans Broyles), and no TE to speak of.

This season was the perfect **** storm. Everything fell apart before the season began and became exponentially worse by halftime in the opener. This is a speed bump in the tremendous run that Stoops has had. In his 10 years, he's coached in 40% of the national title games, won 60% of the conference titles and average double digit wins. It just didn't happen this year. Are they off the hook for being unprepeared? Not completely, but I don't think ANYONE could foresee what has happened this year. No one. Ten years of relatively good luck on the injury front finally came back to bite them all at once. Don't think Stoops has suddenly forgot how to coach.

[soonerborn30]

Its called injuries people! The O-Line is decimated, we lost a returning Heisman QB, the best TE in the country and lost our best receiver for a few games. We are playing guys that simply aren't ready or aren't that good on the line (they were "backups" for a reason, a Frosh QB, new receivers (sans Broyles), and no TE to speak of.

This season was the perfect **** storm. Everything fell apart before the season began and became exponentially worse by halftime in the opener. This is a speed bump in the tremendous run that Stoops has had. In his 10 years, he's coached in 40% of the national title games, won 60% of the conference titles and average double digit wins. It just didn't happen this year. Are they off the hook for being unprepeared? Not completely, but I don't think ANYONE could foresee what has happened this year. No one. Ten years of relatively good luck on the injury front finally came back to bite them all at once. Don't think Stoops has suddenly forgot how to coach.

Is anyone not curious why we don't have a viable TE option? Is no one curious why there is such a dropoff in the Oline, receivers, QB, and TE? Seriously. I don't understand. How can there be such a talent gap? Are we not recruiting the right people, getting the right people but not developing them once they get here, or a combination of the two?

[Ground_Attack]

Is anyone not curious why we don't have a viable TE option? Is no one curious why there is such a dropoff in the Oline, receivers, QB, and TE? Seriously. I don't understand. How can there be such a talent gap? Are we not recruiting the right people, getting the right people but not developing them once they get here, or a combination of the two?

There is a talent drop off because we are replacing an Heisman QB, All-American Tight End, and an under-rated group of wide-outs with Freshmen. I'll admit that part of the problem is recruiting misses but much of it is just bad luck. It happens everywhere. We have 85 'ships and can't stack all americans at every position like we used to. Its a bad season. Write it off. How many of you "Johnny Rain Cloud" fans were actually fans before Stoops arrived?

[soonerborn30]

That's why I'm "Johnny Rain Cloud" Because I was around before Stoops. I remember the dark times. I don't want to go back. And I see every indication that that's where things are headed. I think the fair weather fans aren't wringing their hands, losing sleep, criticizing. They're moving on to the latest undefeated team. Hence the term "fair weather". Anybody that gives a crap enough to come to a message board and vent about their team is probably not a fair weather fan.

[SGT Park3R]

I heard that part of the interview. Bob had a little bit of an edge to his voice.

He does better then me. I can't stand being asked a question when the answer is obvious. Or if I know they are only asking to later criticize my answer. I would be horrible at press conferences.

[PLaw]

Please don't take this as a personal affront. You seem pretty smart and I respect that.

But...

I just couldn't disagree with you more. In Bud's day, our 3rd and 4th string teams would have been able to line up and play with most teams in the country.

I think you missed the point - the reference to Bud's team was strictly an Oklahoma example of how a well coached team performs. I think you can look around today's college football landscape and find plenty other examples of well coached teams. For one, look no further than Ft. Worth and the TCU Horned Frogs. Heck, look at OU's 2000 team.

Sure, today it is more important than ever to insure the type of kids you recruit have the make up to succeed in your program. You simply can't afford to have "misses" in your recruiting or career ending injuries that decimate your depth. You also have to carefully manage the numbers on each unit to avoid getting out of balance. It's complicated.

At the end of the day, well coached teams do not make mental mistakes that are detrimental to the team during the course of the game.

BOOMER

[PLaw]

Was Mark Bradley's boneheaded play on the punt against USC his fault or the fault of Stoops and his staff? Bradley for the whole part in his career at OU had shown more than adequate mental preparation, good fundamentals, and good focus.

Mark was a great player and certainly made us all proud over the course of his career.

I certainly remember the outcome of the play you've used an example, but I've tried to erase all memory of TGOWWDNS and I don't recall whether or not it was on a kick-off or punt.

I seem think it was on a punt in which case Mark should have gotten as far away as possible from the ball if he couldn't cleanly catch it. That's somehting that gets coached from Pop Warner days.

Regrettably, I do remember SUC kicking off alot during that game and Mark's play could have been on a kick-off where he got caught in "no man's land" with a live ball and bad stuff happens.

Regardless, the point was that personal fouls after the whistle blows, illegal procedure penalties, and missed blocking assignments are correctable. In the past, Bob has as much said so himself.

BOOMER

[the_ouskull]

Yeah, and play who? I think Schmitty used up his eligibility, and besides, he's a runt.

"Runt" or not, any defensive lineman in the country that knows him wouldn't try to rush him. I say let's do it. He's got to be better than the Brandon kid.

the_ouskull

[PLaw]

There's so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.

Our coaches have proven time and time again that they can get good players to play. They've proven that moving some people around to unfamiliar positions was a smart thing to do. Look at the number of our players (o-line) playing in the NFL.

Agreed. We can all be proud of the OL's that Wilson and Patton have put into the League. I can't say enough how enjoyable it is to see Load clearing the way for AD.

"Fear? Are you kidding me? If a kid is playing scared, he's going to make even more mistakes. This is football in the 21st Century, not gladiator fights in Rome. A kid needs to have a sense of accountability, but not be scared of making mistakes."

Sorry, but I believe your comprehension may not have understood the point. A healthy level of fear is not being afraid. It doesn't immobilize or sufficate. It doesn't cause panic and it doesn't impede action.

A "healthy level of fear" motivates. It's a level of fear that drives urgency and focus. For example, "I'm studying may a$$ off for this test because if I don't do well then they are going to boot me out of this school". "I'm going to behave so that that Drill Sargent doesn't chew my ***." "I've got to provide for my family today." A healthy level of fear helps you keep your edge so that you can bring your "A" game when it's time to deliver.

"Mental prep, sense of urgency, lack of focus, etc. are NOT coached. It comes from the kid's gut and mind. If he's a fat, lazy slob who doesn't have the gumption to excel, he never will - no matter how good the coaching is."

Totally disagree. If these characteristics are inate, then there wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar per year "self-improvement" industry and army of consultants that teach these traits to Fortune 100 company executives. I also believe that many of our honored veterens would also disagree after successfully completing boot camp.

"It's much more difficult to blame the young kids for their own stupid mistakes. Players are not coached to drop passes. Players are not coached to false start and hold on every other play. Players are not coached to whiff on blocks. Players are not coached to be apathetic or lazy. If a player lacks the chutzpah, the mojo, the intangible whatever the hell it is to be a high-performing winner, then that's on the player."

Wow, where do I start? In the early days, Bob was very careful about statements coming from the program "being respectful", particularily as it related to players. "Be respectful of your school, your coaches, and your team". It's a little different than it was in '05 when Bob said "there is a sense of entitlement around here" and we witnessed the coaches work as evidenced by weekly improvement.

Remember, the players mirror their coaches. When the coaches take personal accountability, then the players will take personal accountability and these mental aberrations will cease. The blame game is always on a death spiral and it may be Bob's last gasp effort to get his point through to these entitled players on this team.

But it's all good - we are OKLAHOMA. Lord willing the sun will rise tomorrow and we continue to work towards No. 8. We can also all pray that our kids stop getting hurt and stay healthy. Bob is great coach and he will find the keys to beating Texas, winning the South, winning the Big XII and winning the National Championship.

After all, how much better is it to be a SOONER than a sand aggie, aggie, or cow-turd?

BOOMER

[Leroy Lizard]

A "healthy level of fear" motivates. It's a level of fear that drives urgency and focus. For example, "I'm studying may a$$ off for this test because if I don't do well then they are going to boot me out of this school". "I'm going to behave so that that Drill Sargent doesn't chew my ***." "I've got to provide for my family today." A healthy level of fear helps you keep your edge so that you can bring your "A" game when it's time to deliver.

Gee, I would think having to perform in front of 70,000 people on live television would strike enough healthy fear in a young kid not to screw up.

I mean, if I screw up in a game, I am far more worried about what it looked like to spectators then what the coach thinks. Sure, in practice I worry more about the coaches, but not during a game.