Spoiled? Whining?

[tbl]

I honestly don't understand this garbage. What the flip kind of decent programs fanbase is happy with the kind of crap we've seen, in particular last night? Oh, so we get frustrated about it, have VALID complaints against players and coaches (or at least speculate on what could be the problem), and all of a sudden "8-4 is pretty good! Any program would be happy with that! Stop whining and acting so spoiled!"

What the mess kind of crap is that??? WE SCORED 3 POINTS ON A TEAM THAT LOST TO IOWA STATE! If there are OU fans out there content with that, then go root for Baylor or some team that is content with mediocrity and sucking. Me? I'll stay a Sooner and NOT be cool with this, thank you very much. I'm not saying fire Stoops or anything crazy like that, but hello!

morans...

[delhalew]

I get were your coming from. I have the same feelings about what I've seen.

I also think people need to step back lay off a 19 year old kid who just met a defense that makes * d pale in comparison.

[sooner59]

I made the trip to Lincoln, saw corn fields, was puzzled by how excessively nice the people were, went to the game, tried Runza, and made the trip back.

I have come to the conclusion that I am a Sooner fan.....always have been...always will be. I had a fun trip. I watched a great defensive performance, and saw the offense try hard but not be able to put it together against a good defense and a big-time atmosphere. I wish we would have won, but I am not mad. I had fun. I will be in the stands when we beat A&M next week, and I will cheer my team on.

I have nothing ill to say. That is all.

[En_Fuego]

WOW tbl.....is your post count correct and can you kick a field goal.

You are hired !

[Leroy Lizard]

No one's content. Some of us just happen to remember it is just a game. Whether we win or lose doesn't reflect on me personally, so why should I take it personally?

[sooneron]

...but I expect perfection week in and week out from these 20 year olds damnit!!!!



Buy a ****ing clue, no one is happy about the game. Some of us realize that throwing one player under the bus is goofy when the entire O looked bad.

[ouwapiti]

what exactly is a 'moran'?????

[TheHumanAlphabet]

^^^ You need to be a long-timer to understand that.

[OKLA21FAN]

...but I expect perfection week in and week out from these 20 year olds damnit!!!!



Buy a ****ing clue, no one is happy about the game. Some of us realize that throwing one player under the bus is goofy when the entire O looked bad.
this

[tanjou]

I honestly don't understand this garbage. What the flip kind of decent programs fanbase is happy with the kind of crap we've seen, in particular last night? Oh, so we get frustrated about it, have VALID complaints against players and coaches (or at least speculate on what could be the problem), and all of a sudden "8-4 is pretty good! Any program would be happy with that! Stop whining and acting so spoiled!"

What the mess kind of crap is that??? WE SCORED 3 POINTS ON A TEAM THAT LOST TO IOWA STATE! If there are OU fans out there content with that, then go root for Baylor or some team that is content with mediocrity and sucking. Me? I'll stay a Sooner and NOT be cool with this, thank you very much. I'm not saying fire Stoops or anything crazy like that, but hello!

morans...
Football fans, as with most people who consider themselves big sports fans, don't make judgments rationally. And who can blame them most of the time, it's fun to get emotional and incoherent about football sometimes. That works out great for all fans of team X when that team is doing well.

When that team starts doing poorly, what was acceptable dissent and disagreement is dealt with in the same emotional and unreasonable manner, and it becomes a lot less fun and enjoyable.

That's what is happening here. Rational sports discussion happens rarely on the internet. See claims like "i'm a fan 'til the end!!" and "20 year olds, they're just kids havin' fun!" and "fire bob stoops!"

Don't take it too seriously.

[tanjou]

And it's okay to make fun of "your" team sometimes.

[fossil]

I honestly don't understand this garbage. What the flip kind of decent programs fanbase is happy with the kind of crap we've seen, in particular last night? Oh, so we get frustrated about it, have VALID complaints against players and coaches (or at least speculate on what could be the problem), and all of a sudden "8-4 is pretty good! Any program would be happy with that! Stop whining and acting so spoiled!"

What the mess kind of crap is that??? WE SCORED 3 POINTS ON A TEAM THAT LOST TO IOWA STATE! If there are OU fans out there content with that, then go root for Baylor or some team that is content with mediocrity and sucking. Me? I'll stay a Sooner and NOT be cool with this, thank you very much. I'm not saying fire Stoops or anything crazy like that, but hello!

morans...

:D Dude, you just need to take a chill pill and have a little patience. Oh yeah, the moran is the one who can't spell moron!!

[fossil]

what exactly is a 'moran'?????

:D A moron who can't spell fer ****!!!

[Snyder Cyclone]

a moran would be someone who constantly runs 1 or 2 zone or throws the the TB swing in the flat one too many times in crucial situations.

[Jack T.]

No one's content. Some of us just happen to remember it is just a game. Whether we win or lose doesn't reflect on me personally, so why should I take it personally?

The catch-22 is that those of us who *do* remember it is just a game stop posting as much after a painful loss. . .which somehow makes us "bandwagon" fans when we come back to the boards after big wins.

[OKLA21FAN]

what exactly is a 'moran'?????

I know of one who is a Cardinal fan :pop:

[tbl]

:D Dude, you just need to take a chill pill and have a little patience. Oh yeah, the moran is the one who can't spell moron!!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/fixinchitlins/facepalm-1.jpg














http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/U/moran.jpg

[C&CDean]

Some people are really ****ed up. When bitching about your team = being a good fan then you're really ****ed up. A moran, squared.

[badger]

Before Dean bans anymore of you square morans/morons/Mormons, I just want to let it be known that positive as I am about the future of Sooner football, I am also not happy that we are 5-4. But, no use complaining about it. The NCAA only takes away wins, not losses, and the only thing they're taking away now is players. Seeing how we don't have any liars around, we are stuck with the players we have and the record we have accumulated through our injury-plagued season. I'll deal with it, but not by complaining.

[C&CDean]

And don't get me wrong. Yell at your TV. Throw your hat at it. Spend the night tossing and turning trying to figure out what the hell is wrong. Then become a normal human being and get the **** over it. Jeez. Nobody wants to be 5-4. However, it's beyond stupid to say "being positive about this team = being happy with 5-4."

[setem]

...but I expect perfection week in and week out from these 20 year olds damnit!!!!



Buy a ****ing clue, no one is happy about the game. Some of us realize that throwing one player under the bus is goofy when the entire O looked bad.

I agree that throwing a 20 year old under the bus is dumb and I don't like what is happening with the team. The o-line should have had their *** kicked when Sam went down the 1st time and then they should have had it stomped when he went down a 2nd time. Those guys are there for one reason and that is to block. They cant block a damn drive way! They are the reason the offense has no time to do anything. Running backs see the holes but they close before they have time to make a move. Sam was running for his life and now Landry is dealing with the same. They flat our stink and there is no sign of them improving.

[cheezyq]

I guess it's ok to start multiple "stop whining" and "you're not real fans" threads, but not one asking what constitutes being a "real" fan. So here, I'm posting in this one to hopefully get a legit answer. You might think I'm joking, Dean thinks I'm being extremist. But I'm being serious, albeit with a thick dose of sarcasm. There's clearly a line that people can't cross on this site, without becoming a "non-fan" of the Sooners in the opinion of the "wise" members of this forum.

Apparently I crossed that line a while back, and I pretty much have stopped posting my opinions on any football-related subject. I had thought that I was being fairly reasonable and mild with my opinions, not going too extreme in one direction or another. But, despite this place being (mis?)labeled a forum, there is a long list of subjects about OU football that can't be touched.

I'd just like for all those "real" fans to define that line, so that we all know and can be "real" Sooner fans just like you.


I always assumed calling out other fans as being either "bandwagon" or not "real" fans was an offense limited to our prison-issue orange-clad friends to the northeast...but apparently I was incorrect.

So for the sake of everyone, can those of you "in the know" please define what a "real" Sooner fan is for us? Like, how many losses are we required to accept without getting frustrated and still be a "real" fan? Can we discuss things we'd like to see the players or coaches do differently, or is ALL criticism off limits for "true" fans? Is it OK to vent a little after a loss, or does showing ANY frustration immediately disqualify you from being a "real" Sooner fan?

Just so we can know in advance. Lord knows we don't want to offend you "real" Sooner fans.

K. Plz. Thx.

Cheez.

I realize I run the risk of being banned for my "extremist" views. I guess I can accept that, though I don't particularly agree with it. I am actually very curious about the answer to this question, though. Hopefully I'll be allowed to hang out long enough for someone to provide the answer and I can step back into the bounds of being a "real" Sooner fan, at least according to the unwritten rules of SF.com.

TIA,

Cheez

[badger]

I am not sure if this answers your question cheez (and btw, I didn't ask your thread to get locked), but I have found that college-level fans are always more loyal and more "real" than pro-level fans.

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that students are tied to their universities for life. The name of the university is on your resume, the university will beg you for donations for life, and there's a sense of belonging to the university community, since you spend several years of your young(ish) life there.

As such, I would say that "real" Sooner fans are those that should the same dedication, loyalty and sense of feeling connected as those that attended the university as students. Even if the football team loses four of its first nine games, the name of the university on the resume doesn't change and neither does the name of the school you support most if you're "real."

[BoulderSooner79]

You nailed it Badger. My tie to OU was cemented while I toiled to cram a 4 year degree into 5 years during my time in Norman (hey, I had to work full time too). I then got my graduate degree at Stanford, my other red school, but developed no bond to it at all. I even wanted Stanford to lose Saturday to keep the ducks ahead of USC in the pac10. I never want OU to lose under any circumstance - even if our winning helps, gulp, the horns. (BTW, with us at 5-4, the horn SOS is pathetic).

So I'll always watch and pull for OU, be happy when they win and disappointed when they lose and be willing to talk football in a rational discussion. I'll let the OU AD worry about the coaches and the coaches to worry about the team and always remember football is just an entertainment product. And yes, entertainment sometimes includes tragedy - remember that Shakespeare guy.

[cheezyq]

I am not sure if this answers your question cheez (and btw, I didn't ask your thread to get locked), but I have found that college-level fans are always more loyal and more "real" than pro-level fans.

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that students are tied to their universities for life. The name of the university is on your resume, the university will beg you for donations for life, and there's a sense of belonging to the university community, since you spend several years of your young(ish) life there.

As such, I would say that "real" Sooner fans are those that should the same dedication, loyalty and sense of feeling connected as those that attended the university as students. Even if the football team loses four of its first nine games, the name of the university on the resume doesn't change and neither does the name of the school you support most if you're "real."

I know you didn't ask for it to be locked. I offended Dean a few weeks back while defending my right to have an opinion, and he's not been happy with me since. Ultimately though, this subject SHOULD have been in this thread instead of a new one, so it was the right decision and I ain't mad. I was just pointing out a minor double-standard.

I agree with your assessment about "real" fans, as defined by what they are in the real world. But here, in virtual Soonerland, being a "real" fan means something entirely different. I figure some of us want to know what those boundaries are. Me, I prefer to have reasonable football discussion, which might include pointing out things that I think are mistakes. While the overly-frustrated posters sometimes annoy me, I'm a pretty accepting guy and can just ignore that and move on. But I'm not one of the "real" fans, so I'm just trying to find out what these "real" fans consider to be appropriate for this site.

[badger]

Don't be intimidated by the virtual world, cheez. Anytime you hate the Internets, just shut your computer off. Even the "real world" perception doesn't really matter. I mean, if someone out there says you aren't a "real" fan to your face, that doesn't mean you have to listen to them.

Don't let the masses get to you. Be as "real" of a fan as you want to be, regardless of whether that coincides with other fans' opinions of "real" fans. Whether other OU fans other there jump ship until title No. 8 comes, or if they stay here and try to gut this out with the team? Doesn't make any difference what I personally do.

[cheezyq]

Thanks, baj. Nah, I'm not mad or anything, just curious. There are so many people here using that Aggy argument about being a true fan, I just wanted to know what they constitute as a "real" fan. I think it's a legitimate question, and apparently so does tbl.

[CBUS_SOONER]

if your post count is correct, maybe its time to get a life. seriously

[cheezyq]

And at this point, I don't think you can blame ANYONE for our lack of success this year. It's a moving target, really, with a huge part of it being bad luck. At the beginning of the season, our leaders (either by example or voice) were Sam, Jermaine, Brody, and McCoy. Three of them are no longer playing this year. It's hard to stay upbeat in the locker room when things get tough on the field and your typical leaders are all in crutches.

[badger]

if your post count is correct, maybe its time to get a life. seriously

Oh yes, I totally agree that it is time for me to get a life.

(If a 5-4 Sooner team can't get me down, neither can you)

[Leroy Lizard]

I guess it's ok to start multiple "stop whining" and "you're not real fans" threads, but not one asking what constitutes being a "real" fan.

A real fan is like a real friend. Rooting you on and reveling in your success. Understanding and offering words of encouragement when you lose.

I sure wouldn't want friends that criticize me when things go bad. Would you?

[MamaMia]

And don't get me wrong. Yell at your TV. Throw your hat at it. Spend the night tossing and turning trying to figure out what the hell is wrong. Then become a normal human being and get the **** over it. Jeez. Nobody wants to be 5-4. However, it's beyond stupid to say "being positive about this team = being happy with 5-4." It takes me until Wednesday to be rational after a loss. After 9 years of me going through the motions of losing, you know this though. :P

This reminds me of the year we loss the GOWWDNS. Remember how I swore I would never go to another Bowl game as long as I lived and you said I would be just fine by Wednesday and will be sitting at the next Bowl game the following year? I thought about that when we were packing for the next Bowl game. :)

[Leroy Lizard]

This reminds me of the year we loss the GOWWDNS.

Sorry, but I have to take a stand once we start talking Klingon.

[stoopified]

In the end I can't change ANYTHING about this team or thsi season.Therefore I am going to continue to support MY SOONERS and trust Bob and his staff are doing their best to coach this team .

[tbl]

And don't get me wrong. Yell at your TV. Throw your hat at it. Spend the night tossing and turning trying to figure out what the hell is wrong. Then become a normal human being and get the **** over it. Jeez. Nobody wants to be 5-4. However, it's beyond stupid to say "being positive about this team = being happy with 5-4."

I totally agree dude. My point was about people making claims of "spoiled" and "whining". Is anybody happy about scoring 3 points? I don't see how that is possible... but to be frustrated about it then be called a spoiled whiner is pretty ridiculous. It's also equally ridiculous to call for Stoops head and want to completely bash the kids on the field.

[badger]

I endured a losing program throughout most of my high school years... all of them, actually. We were worse than Baylor. The best part about watching football back then was finding ways to stay entertained (and later in the season, stay warm) till the end of the game.

Five wins for me is still being spoiled :D

[westbrooke]

I totally agree dude. My point was about people making claims of "spoiled" and "whining". Is anybody happy about scoring 3 points? I don't see how that is possible... but to be frustrated about it then be called a spoiled whiner is pretty ridiculous. It's also equally ridiculous to call for Stoops head and want to completely bash the kids on the field.

I think the problem is that there are people doing exactly what you claimed was ridiculous, just as there are people on the other extreme. Then, in the heat of an argument, more moderate positions are cast as being no different from those extremes, and you end up with entire classes of posters who are sunshine pumpers or headhunters (or who may incorrectly believe they are being singled out as such) without ever intending to be.

Which leads to the "real fan" question. I don't think I've ever played that card on anyone, but if I were to do so, it would be on someone who was consistently abusive toward coaches, players, and other fans. I grant a lot of leeway to passions enflamed by a loss. I've been in that camp, too. I just ask that we return to our senses quickly. ;) Can't we all get along?

[East Coast Bias]

There is somewhat of an eliteist attitude here as evidenced by comments around attending OU as the measure of a true fan. My Dad never went to school anywhere yet is wearing OU colors in his casket. I attended TU yet have been an OU fan for 50 years. The flavor here is suited more to sunshine pumping and less for tolerance for criticism. The prime movers here definetely have their influence on the discussion and part of that is labeling dissention. I don't understand why all opinions (even ad nauseum) can't air on a "message board"?

[Crimsontothecore]

I get tired of the intolerance toward the "criticizers". Bob Stoops has done a wonderful job here and I hope he stays forever, but is it really wrong to question why a team underperforms to this degree? Before you rag on us spoiled fans, just remember it was the fans and administrators intolerance for mediocrity that led to the hiring of coach Stoops in the first place. If we were all happy with crappy play we would be sitting here right now watching John Blake in his 14th season and probably hoping for any bowl.

Yes, I realize the great success we have enjoyed under coach Stoops and all the titles, but does that give him immunity from criticism this year? maybe to a certain degree, but not totally.

[ashley]

A real fan is like a real friend. Rooting you on and reveling in your success. Understanding and offering words of encouragement when you lose.

I sure wouldn't want friends that criticize me when things go bad. Would you?

Perfect. Tell em' s... happens. Grow up and get a life.

[pappy]

I get tired of the intolerance toward the "criticizers". Bob Stoops has done a wonderful job here and I hope he stays forever, but is it really wrong to question why a team underperforms to this degree? Before you rag on us spoiled fans, just remember it was the fans and administrators intolerance for mediocrity that led to the hiring of coach Stoops in the first place. If we were all happy with crappy play we would be sitting here right now watching John Blake in his 14th season and probably hoping for any bowl.

Yes, I realize the great success we have enjoyed under coach Stoops and all the titles, but does that give him immunity from criticism this year? maybe to a certain degree, but not totally.

agreed.

[TUSooner]

A real fan is like a real friend. Rooting you on and reveling in your success. Understanding and offering words of encouragement when you lose.

I sure wouldn't want friends that criticize me when things go bad. Would you?

Real friends are honest with you. Like, they tell you if your zipper's open or if you are making a fool of yourself. You act like we should be afraid we might hurt little Bobby's feelings if we let our lips get too far from his behind.

Yes, I AM exaggerating, but your "real friend" analogy is profoundly flawed. You think Bob's your "friend"? Call him next time you need help moving.

This is big-time college football, Lizzy. Even those saintly Husker fans get aggravated at their team sometimes. You don't go 5-4 at OU without making some people a little upset. Bob's a man, I suspect he can handle it; I hope he can.

[C&CDean]

Pretty decent thread, all in all.

I guess some folks are missing my point completely. I've tried to convey it many times, but alas, I guess I've failed. I'll try again:

The "fans" I'm pissed about and will call "non-fans" are the ones who bitch CONSTANTLY. We're inundated with these guys. In section 109, you can hear the same guys every game whining and bitching after damn near every play. The same old tired ****: "buy a clue Wilson!!" "everybody in the whole damned stadium knew what the call was gonna be dumbass" "nice call Stoops, way to earn your millions" and on and on and on. Even when it's going well, they'll bitch if any play doesn't gain a ****pot of yards, and sometimes even bitch then. "so you finally pulled your head out huh Wilson and called the play that I wanted you to." Meh.

So you'll have to forgive me when I come on this message board and read crap that sounds just like the guys in my section. When I see somebody posting the same old tired "even my old lady knew we were gonna run the ball on that play" it just chaps my hide a little more. These people are stupid. And these people are not fans to me.

Do I yell during the game? Oh hell yes. The one yell I've unfortunately been using a LOT is "catch the damn ball!!!!" Or when they jump for the 10th time in a game I'll yell "c'mon now, it ain't that hard to wait for the snap dammit!!"

We all take these losses differently, and we all need to vent about them. However, that doesn't mean screaming (in person or cyberly) about every single play. It wears on people. Especially us fans.

[pappy]

[QUOTE=C&CDean;2764924] When I see somebody posting the same old tired "even my old lady knew we were gonna run the ball on that play" it just chaps my hide a little more. These people are stupid. And these people are not fans to me. [QUOTE]

Sometimes its true though. Then again it may be true simply b/c the "fans" pay more attention to OU games then anyone else and because of it know the tendencies of KW's play calling. I for one am like that...Atleast half the game I can tell you by formation or by what play was just run or what the down and distance is, the play that is coming next. its kind of sad now that I think about it. Anyway, I also couldn't care less if you consider me a fan or not. I don't think KW should get fired...he needs to suck again next year for that. ;)

[Crucifax Autumn]

I keep my heaviest bitching between me and the tv during the game. After the fact I'm still a Sooner and still hope for the next game to go as good as possible. Me whining and moaning about some play Wilson called when I woulda did something different in a video game just doesn't help any. God knows I read a bit on the opponent during the week, but I damn sure don't spend the entire week of evenings in the film room devising a strategy, so I'll assume Wilson calls **** for a reason. If he's not, I'm sure Bob will address the problems.

[Crimsontothecore]

I have only recently started complaining. I'm definitely not the type of so called fan C&CDean describes. That would grate on me too.

I think I speak for most true and realistic OU fans when I say my frustration comes from knowing that this coaching staff (and players) are capable of performing much better than they have. I hope Bob Stoops stays here forever and I'm not even saying I think anyone should be fired. I do think it's time for the head coach to re-evaluate some things. For gods sake this is the same coach who took over a team full of unmotivated and poorly coached players and put a crystal ball in the showcase in only his second year. This is the same coach who has been to three national title games since and has racked up 6 conference titles. We know what they are capable of and, yes, we get impatient when we see sloppy play.

[olevetonahill]

what exactly is a 'moran'?????


:D Dude, you just need to take a chill pill and have a little patience. Oh yeah, the moran is the one who can't spell moron!!

A Moran should never post a "POLE"
jes sayin

[C&CDean]

Sometimes its true though. Then again it may be true simply b/c the "fans" pay more attention to OU games then anyone else and because of it know the tendencies of KW's play calling. I for one am like that...Atleast half the game I can tell you by formation or by what play was just run or what the down and distance is, the play that is coming next. its kind of sad now that I think about it. Anyway, I also couldn't care less if you consider me a fan or not. I don't think KW should get fired...he needs to suck again next year for that. ;)

I won't disagree, however, could you tell what plays he was gonna call last year when we set all the all-time NCAA offensive records? Did you have his tendencies all figured out then too?

What the average fan doesn't know (or refuses to acknowledge) is that these guys call every play for a reason. When you think that you know more about a defensive scheme and what to call against it then you better go become a million$ coach. This staff is outstanding. The plays Wilson calls will/would work if the players executed their assignments. Last year they did. This year they are not.

[cheezyq]

For the most part, KW has been brilliant while at OU. I'll allow for one bad year, since I know he's generally a very good OC.

Where I differ is that I personally don't like his philosophy, just like I didn't like Chuck Long's, or Mangino's. I'm not even really fond of Leach's philosophy, either. I'm fine with passing the ball and efficiency and big plays, and I'm even fine - to an extent - with the spread. And I suppose you can call the offense aggressive. But there are times when you just have to man-up and run the ball down a guy's throat...prove that you are better than they are, demoralizing the opponent and bleeding time off the clock. Football is a physical game, and you can't be physical and aggressive when you're dropping back to pass block nearly every play.

Where we were so brilliant last year was that we could take one set of players and run 5-6 different formations in one drive, and never huddle. One play we go big-I formation and run the ball for 8-10 yards. The next play we're in 5-wide spread, and passing the ball for 10-15 yards. We had the personnel to execute it, the quarterback smart enough to run it, the line with the diversity to play both ways, and it was absolutely brilliant.

The problem I have with KW (and Long) is that for some reason when things go bad, we always defer to the spread shotgun and abandon the run. We don't run wide line-splits, so this can lead to holding penalties on the edge, or getting burned by the blitz or solid pressure up front. It puts us in long-distance 3rd down plays and we're forced to pass even more, creating even more predictability. For example, against UF last year, there were 2 drives where we ran the ball out of the I-formation, or a non-shotgun formation. On one drive, Chris Brown reeled off 3 straight 10+ yard runs and UF was reeling on defense. Both drives scored a TD...our only scoring drives of the game. On drives where we simply dropped into shotgun formation every down...we scored nothing.

I had the exact same complaints about Long in the 2003/4 Sugar Bowl. We try to run the ball from the shotgun too much, and it's far more passive (because it's usually a draw) than when we lined up in the I and used our superior size on the OL to blow up the defense.

I also hate...no, DESPISE...the hurry-up. I was somewhat ok with it last year because we were successful with it and able to mix things up. But there's one flaw...injuries, penalties, and booth reviews are all that is needed to stop it and give the defense a break. This happens with absurd regularity lately.

In summary, I think KW is a friggin' genius. That doesn't mean I have to like his offense, though. It's fun, I'll give you that. But I like aggression and physicality. We need more of it because it's simple for the players to pick up and understand, and even execute.

Plus, Venables (of whom I've always been more critical) has finally found a way (hopefully for good) to stop the constant blown assignments over the middle, and has crafted a decent defense...aside from the misdirection vulnerabilities. And instead of running an offense to suit the defense, we're stuck in a spread with personnel that just can't execute it.

It's like having a monster truck with tires fit for an Indy car.

[TUSooner]

Here's an analogy: My daughter got in a wreck and totalled her GM's car. She was, thankfully, unhurt. But the crash was most likely her fault. I love my daughter more than anything. But that didn't stop me from letting her know that I was pretty psissed off about her driving.
I love the OU Sooners, not as much as I love my daughter, of course, but I love them. They have been driving on the sidewalk lately, and I really want them to stop.
Howzat?

[TahoeSOONER]

News flash: Not a single Sooner is happy with this offense.

There's work to be done on one side of the ball.

[MamaMia]

I'm okay now, by the way. It did take a day longer though. :D

[soonerborn30]

I'm not sure why everybody points to 2008's offense as a feather in KW's cap. He had the best Oline in the country, the best QB in the country, the best TE in the country, a guy that was so good at blocking that he won FB of the year honors...while being listed as a TE, and two RB's that might play on Sundays. So yeah, he had a little bit of firepower.

A question to illustrate the point: Does anybody here think Barry Switzer was a great coach because he won a Super Bowl in Dallas? Hell no. Just about any halfway competent coach could have won a Super Bowl with all the HOF talent on that team. He even jokingly thanked Jimmy Johnson on the air one time because everybody knows he didn't really have much to do with Dallas' success that year.

KW is an average coach at best, evidenced by the fact that he has no idea how to form a scheme based on the talent that he has. There was a quote I read a long time ago that summed up Bud Wilkinson's greatness: "He'll take his'n and beat your'n, then take your'n and beat his'n. We're seeing firsthand that any kudos KW has received is thanks to the great team he had around him last year, because he's clearly incapable of producing much of anything given the talent he's provided.

I'm not saying he needs to be fired, but he most definitely needs to prove he deserves to call himself a Sooner. He needs to drop the foolish pride and just run the plays our guys are capable of executing and start learning how to adjust. If I can tell with about 50% accuracy what play's coming, I'm pretty sure Ruffin McNeil's gonna be able to tell too.

[Leroy Lizard]

Real friends are honest with you. Like, they tell you if your zipper's open or if you are making a fool of yourself. You act like we should be afraid we might hurt little Bobby's feelings if we let our lips get too far from his behind.

I tell a friend his zipper is unzipped so that he can do something about it. Only a raving lunatic thinks that the OU offense can improve if the fans openly criticize it. Are really nuts enough to think that your criticism will have any positive effect on the team?

"Gee, TUSooner tells us that we have to work harder... and do a better job blocking... and commit fewer penalties."

"Hot diggity! We have been wondering what has been our problem. But now we know, thanks to TUSooner."

"Boy, that TUSooner is sure a good friend."

"Yeah, he's swell!"


Yes, I AM exaggerating, but your "real friend" analogy is profoundly flawed. You think Bob's your "friend"? Call him next time you need help moving.

Okay, let's take a quick reading comprehension lesson. I said that being a fan was LIKE being a friend.

It's figurative language. Get it?


This is big-time college football, Lizzy. Even those saintly Husker fans get aggravated at their team sometimes. You don't go 5-4 at OU without making some people a little upset. Bob's a man, I suspect he can handle it; I hope he can.

Why should I get so upset? I have no stake in the deal. Sure, I want to see the team do well, but I'm not going to let it ruin my day if they don't.

In other words, chill dude.

[Leroy Lizard]

I love the OU Sooners, not as much as I love my daughter, of course, but I love them.

You're daughter probably listens to you. You could have a positive effect on her driving, because you have more knowledge and experience than she does.

How is that anything like being a football fan?

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm not sure why everybody points to 2008's offense as a feather in KW's cap. He had the best Oline in the country, the best QB in the country, the best TE in the country, a guy that was so good at blocking that he won FB of the year honors...while being listed as a TE, and two RB's that might play on Sundays. So yeah, he had a little bit of firepower.

I hate this crap. The offense scores points in a season than any team in the last 50 years, and does he get an ounce of credit? No.


A question to illustrate the point: Does anybody here think Barry Switzer was a great coach because he won a Super Bowl in Dallas? Hell no. Just about any halfway competent coach could have won a Super Bowl with all the HOF talent on that team.

They didn't win it the year before, when they had more talent.

No team is going to win the Super Bowl on pure talent alone.


He even jokingly thanked Jimmy Johnson on the air one time because everybody knows he didn't really have much to do with Dallas' success that year.

KW is an average coach at best, evidenced by the fact that he has no idea how to form a scheme based on the talent that he has.

And what expertise do you possess to evaluate KW's skills as a coach? It must be greater than Stoops', because Stoops hired him. I guess he should have consulted you first.


There was a quote I read a long time ago that summed up Bud Wilkinson's greatness: "He'll take his'n and beat your'n, then take your'n and beat his'n.

Unfortunately, that quote had nothing to do with Bud Wilkinson. It was said by Bum Phillips about Don Shula.


We're seeing firsthand that any kudos KW has received is thanks to the great team he had around him last year, because he's clearly incapable of producing much of anything given the talent he's provided.

IN YOUR OPINION. That's all it is. It isn't even an informed opinion.


I'm not saying he needs to be fired, but he most definitely needs to prove he deserves to call himself a Sooner. He needs to drop the foolish pride and just run the plays our guys are capable of executing and start learning how to adjust. If I can tell with about 50% accuracy what play's coming, I'm pretty sure Ruffin McNeil's gonna be able to tell too.

50% accuracy? Wow, you must be brilliant. That means your defense would only get burned every other play.

[Boooom!]

KW is an average coach at best, evidenced by the fact that he has no idea how to form a scheme based on the talent that he has. There was a quote I read a long time ago that summed up Bud Wilkinson's greatness: "He'll take his'n and beat your'n, then take your'n and beat his'n. We're seeing firsthand that any kudos KW has received is thanks to the great team he had around him last year, because he's clearly incapable of producing much of anything given the talent he's provided.




And what talent would that be? The talent that was formed around the offensive play-makers returning, with the O-line needing to get better? Or the talent waiting for Sam to return, only to find out he wasnt going to?

Perhaps you are suggesting KW didnt make the necessary adjustments after players, like Sam, starting going down?... or even better, make the changes after Sam when down during the BYU game?

You practice all Summer and Fall based on a game plan, then suddenly you players are not there and other players whom are not near as practiced start playing..

damn KW..

[Leroy Lizard]

Where I differ is that I personally don't like his philosophy, just like I didn't like Chuck Long's, or Mangino's. I'm not even really fond of Leach's philosophy, either.

Why don't you tell us which coach's philosophy you actually like, and we can go from there.

[soonerborn30]

I hate this crap. The offense scores points in a season than any team in the last 50 years, and does he get an ounce of credit? No.



They didn't win it the year before, when they had more talent.

No team is going to win the Super Bowl on pure talent alone.



And what expertise do you possess to evaluate KW's skills as a coach? It must be greater than Stoops', because Stoops hired him. I guess he should have consulted you first.



Unfortunately, that quote had nothing to do with Bud Wilkinson. It was said by Bum Phillips about Don Shula.



IN YOUR OPINION. That's all it is. It isn't even an informed opinion.



50% accuracy? Wow, you must be brilliant. That means your defense would only get burned every other play.


I didn't say he deserved no credit. I'm saying he doesn't deserve the credit he gets. Assistant of the year? No way. It was mentioned on a thread earlier (and it didn't get ridiculed by you so I'm taking it as gospel) that we could basically run whatever play we wanted and it worked...wait for it...because we were so talented. So where exactly is the great coaching in having a team so good that no matter what you call they can execute and run a play to perfection?

No NFL team is going to win on talent alone. And they're also not going to win it every year. Say with a straight face that Barry was instrumental in that Super Bowl win and most people will laugh at you. And I'm not knocking Barry. I love Barry Switzer, but he had little to nothing to do with that season.

Never said I had expertise. I was voicing my opinion. You know, kinda like you do, whether people asked for it or not? If you can give your unsolicited opinion about everything under the sun, why can't I? And since my opinion is so "uninformed", why don't you enlighten me on exactly how KW has produced anything of note this year. Go ahead, slugger. Dazzle me with your informed opinion.

And yes, if a dumbarse like me can predict the play about half the time, that means that an actual smart person (like an expert. Like, say, a defensive coordinator) will probably have even better luck. I wasn't bragging about the 50% accuracy. But the fact that you thought so probably says more about you than it does about me.

[gaylordfan1]

Oh, we are still spoiled... and will continue to whinnnnnnnnnn. That is what makes a Sooner Fan!

[Leroy Lizard]

I didn't say he deserved no credit. I'm saying he doesn't deserve the credit he gets. Assistant of the year? No way. It was mentioned on a thread earlier (and it didn't get ridiculed by you so I'm taking it as gospel) that we could basically run whatever play we wanted and it worked...wait for it...because we were so talented.

You have this all worked out so that KW cannot win. If the team plays great, it was only because of talent. If we lose, it was because of KW. No coach is going to hold up against such scrutiny.

Last year Kevin Wilson won the Broyles Award for the top assistant coach. Who votes? 1,500 assistant coaches.

Who knows more? You, or 1,500 assistant coaches?


So where exactly is the great coaching in having a team so good that no matter what you call they can execute and run a play to perfection?

Maybe the reason the team runs the play to perfection is because of the coaching. Could that be it? Do you really think the team learned the offense and how to run it on their own?


No NFL team is going to win on talent alone. And they're also not going to win it every year. Say with a straight face that Barry was instrumental in that Super Bowl win and most people will laugh at you.

You're overlooking an important point about KW. This isn't the NFL. The players in college only attend for five years at most and then they're gone. There are no veterans. The players that played in the national championship game had been in KW's system for three seasons, so to think that he just arrived out of the blue and took over a dominant team is ludicrous. That was HIS offense playing last year and HIS players. They ran an offense he designed and they ran it well because of HIS coaching.


And I'm not knocking Barry.

When people say, "I'm not knocking..." they usually are.


Never said I had expertise. I was voicing my opinion. You know, kinda like you do, whether people asked for it or not? If you can give your unsolicited opinion about everything under the sun, why can't I?

Show me where I have made statements that made it appear like I knew more than the coaching staff about coaching.


And since my opinion is so "uninformed", why don't you enlighten me on exactly how KW has produced anything of note this year. Go ahead, slugger. Dazzle me with your informed opinion.

You don't get it. Any evidence I offer will just be explained away. Either it only worked because of a talent advantage, or you will just pick out a few bad plays to counter. That's how you have worked this out.


And yes, if a dumbarse like me can predict the play about half the time.

But you can't. Fans always say this, but they really can't do it.

Even if you could, not all plays are designed to fool the defense. I am sure there is more to being an OC then running the play that is least expected.

[pappy]

I won't disagree, however, could you tell what plays he was gonna call last year when we set all the all-time NCAA offensive records? Did you have his tendencies all figured out then too?

What the average fan doesn't know (or refuses to acknowledge) is that these guys call every play for a reason. When you think that you know more about a defensive scheme and what to call against it then you better go become a million$ coach. This staff is outstanding. The plays Wilson calls will/would work if the players executed their assignments. Last year they did. This year they are not.

actually yes, I could. not half the game like I can now but pretty close to it. This year it just seems easier. Idk why, just is. its true last year the players executed and this year they aren't. I also think he's gotten a lot more conservative in games away from norman.

[Leroy Lizard]

actually yes, I could. not half the game like I can now but pretty close to it. This year it just seems easier. Idk why, just is.

For once I would love to see a fan actually prove it. Fans usually tell you after the play has run that they predicted it (yeah, right). I want to see them do it before the play is run.

[soonerborn30]

I've been sitting in the same seats (Sec. 23 Row 42) for 15 years. I've been sitting with the same people the whole time. We have a game that we like to play to try and guess the plays, just for fun. I have nothing to gain by saying that we predict the plays half the time. I'm not aware of any sort of point system for this kind of thing. So why would I lie? Why would anyone lie about that? Is it luck? Maybe. But the point is that KW is very predictable. So much so that it took BYU almost an entire half of football to figure everything out and end up taking Sam out of the game. I'm sure you've seen the little analysis ESPN did regarding formations in shotgun and formations under center. Shockingly predicable.

And your position begs the question: how is KW proving that he's a good coach this year? If this is his ingenious system and his coaching that produced the juggernaut we had last year, where did it go? I'm not pretending to be a football expert, so I really don't understand how he can such a great coach one year and have an Offense that looks like complete doo doo the next.

And you're playing both sides, too. He doesn't get to reap the benefits of a great offense last year without taking lumps for his absolutely pathetic offense this year. KW is only as good as the players he has around him. That was the entire point of the (mis-attributed) quote from earlier. A good coach would be able to get production out of his players regardless.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Most of you will be absolutely amazed to hear me say this, But I agree with Leroy.

So Leroy...Are you getting smarter or were you just playing dumb prior to this season?

[Monster Zero]

I always thought it was MO-ron.

[westbrooke]

I've been sitting in the same seats (Sec. 23 Row 42) for 15 years. I've been sitting with the same people the whole time. We have a game that we like to play to try and guess the plays, just for fun. I have nothing to gain by saying that we predict the plays half the time. I'm not aware of any sort of point system for this kind of thing. So why would I lie? Why would anyone lie about that? Is it luck? Maybe. But the point is that KW is very predictable. So much so that it took BYU almost an entire half of football to figure everything out and end up taking Sam out of the game. I'm sure you've seen the little analysis ESPN did regarding formations in shotgun and formations under center. Shockingly predicable.

And your position begs the question: how is KW proving that he's a good coach this year? If this is his ingenious system and his coaching that produced the juggernaut we had last year, where did it go? I'm not pretending to be a football expert, so I really don't understand how he can such a great coach one year and have an Offense that looks like complete doo doo the next.

And you're playing both sides, too. He doesn't get to reap the benefits of a great offense last year without taking lumps for his absolutely pathetic offense this year. KW is only as good as the players he has around him. That was the entire point of the (mis-attributed) quote from earlier. A good coach would be able to get production out of his players regardless.

So you're going to throw out three years of solid data on the offense's performance in favor of what amounts to an outlier, this year? That's the opposite of science. That's full confirmation of Leroy's assertion that you're looking for any argument to justify a pre-formed opinion instead of basing your opinion on the sum of the facts. That sum includes things that happened before 2009.

I'm also getting a little tired of the bolded statement. I've seen that in many forms, not just from you, so I'm not trying to single you out on this. But this argument seems to be based completely on enflamed passion instead of any sort of rational assessment of the individual roles of players and coaches and the contributing circumstances that affect success. This is what I hear when this argument comes up: "Here's a team with good players and senior leadership. You won? Great. Now try it with this team that includes some of the same good players mixed with a lot of inexperience. Think you can still win? Ha! We lied, that team you just prepared has been replaced by this random assortment of rusty GI Joes and kitchen appliances. You lost? You suck as a coach. The coach who won last year (and the two years before that) and justified our expectations for this year should have been able to get one-legged Cobra Commander and that beat-up washer-dryer combo on the same page on a moment's notice."

This entire exchange seems to be a repeat of the earlier threads that were the very reason for starting this thread. You went too far. Leroy called you on it. That doesn't mean he's happy with 5-4. That doesn't mean he thinks everything KW has done should be immortalized in song. He's just pointing out where you're overreaching.

[Leroy Lizard]

I've been sitting with the same people the whole time. We have a game that we like to play to try and guess the plays, just for fun. I have nothing to gain by saying that we predict the plays half the time. I'm not aware of any sort of point system for this kind of thing. So why would I lie?

To support a position. When an offense fails, the first person everyone likes to blame is the OC. At that point, you are no longer objective and claims that you can predict the play begin to support your position.

Go into any struggling team's forum and you will see the same thing. Fans think that the team is struggling because the defense is guessing the play call. It's what fans do.

Whenever a play is stuffed, it looks predictable after the fact. If the offense is stuffed continuously, the offense starts to look predictable. To someone looking at the game superficially, it looks like the offense is getting stuffed because the defense knows what play is being called. The fans pick up on this and begin to think that they can predict the play call as well.

We even had fans in here claiming they predicting the fourth down call last week. Baloney. But they'll claim it... after the play is over.

This is why we have had posts in here claim that KW always rushes on first down. But go into the actual game stats and you will see that the breakdown between rushing and passing on first down is roughly 50%. But fans will swear that he always rushes on first down.

[mightysooner]

I honestly don't understand this garbage. What the flip kind of decent programs fanbase is happy with the kind of crap we've seen, in particular last night? Oh, so we get frustrated about it, have VALID complaints against players and coaches (or at least speculate on what could be the problem), and all of a sudden "8-4 is pretty good! Any program would be happy with that! Stop whining and acting so spoiled!"

What the mess kind of crap is that??? WE SCORED 3 POINTS ON A TEAM THAT LOST TO IOWA STATE! If there are OU fans out there content with that, then go root for Baylor or some team that is content with mediocrity and sucking. Me? I'll stay a Sooner and NOT be cool with this, thank you very much. I'm not saying fire Stoops or anything crazy like that, but hello!

morans...


It's a passive/aggressive way for somebody to feel superior or put on an heir of superiority and that's all it is. That way they can say "I'm a better fan than you". Get it?

And if you're going to call people "morons", it's crucial that you spell "moron" correctly....

[soonerborn30]

I still haven't seen anyone provide any evidence whatsoever that KW has done a good job this year. Any takers?

[Leroy Lizard]

I still haven't seen anyone provide any evidence whatsoever that KW has done a good job this year. Any takers?

I told you once, and I will tell you again: There is no way that anyone can satisfy your criteria. If we point out a game where the offense played well, you will simply counter that the defense sucked or point out certain plays that did not work.

[soonerborn30]

How do you know? You haven't tried yet. Which sort of leads me to believe that you really don't have much evidence. At the end of the day, you're a KW apologist and I am not. I think this is the part where people say we just have to agree to disagree.

[Leroy Lizard]

Okay, we scored 45 points on Tulsa and racked up 529 yards. Our QB threw a record 6 TD passes.

[Leroy Lizard]

Okay, how about tonight?

[pappy]

it was in norman,against the worst defense in the big 12...


I'm not complaining. I'm stating that it wasn't *that* great


Also, my gripes about KW are when he coaches outside of norman against good teams.

he did well tonight...the players did well too...for the most part.

[Since71ASooner4Life]

Everything is relative - given bad circumstances I think this team has done a super job and with a few breaks could still be undefeated! All losses are disappointing but look at the fact that we've barely lost games to ranked opponents despite the injuries and a brand new OL. The defense has been excellent. Heck, I'm more disappointed about all the whiners that showed up calling to fire some of the best coaches in existence and bad mouthing a Freshman QB thrown into a no win situation - i.e. a team that everyone expected to contend for the NC, taken out by injuries to superstar players and fans underestimating the loss of 4 seniors on the OL. I cant wait till next year when the whorn fans lurking on this board start posting links from this year's whining posts and laughing their a$$es off.

That old saying about sh$t happens is true, and sh$t happened this year. Those of us who have lived a while and watched a few seasons come and go understand this.

[Leroy Lizard]

Also, my gripes about KW are when he coaches outside of norman against good teams.

This indicates that the complaints against KW are mostly based on perception, not reality. When playing on the road, players make more mistakes because they are playing in a hostile environment. Good teams capitalize on those mistakes. The result makes it appear that the wrong play is being called.

I seriously doubt KW's playcalling changes much between playing at home and on the road.