The HOUSE CALL in DC today

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Ms PELOSI...suck it, baby doll! NO SOCIALIZED MED., YAINCH!

Many thousands showed up to protest. Guess the vote is sat.

[LosAngelesSooner]

3,500 brainwashed morons who were also holding signs equating Obama to Hitler and questioning his birth certificate.

Heh...yeah...THOSE people. :D

Fortunately 60% of Americans are in favor of the public option and 80% of Americans are in favor of health care reform.

A TAD bit more than 3,500 lemmings.

[picasso]

3,500 brainwashed morons who were also holding signs equating Obama to Hitler and questioning his birth certificate.

Heh...yeah...THOSE people. :D

Fortunately 60% of Americans are in favor of the public option and 80% of Americans are in favor of health care reform.

A TAD bit more than 3,500 lemmings.

Yes, anyone who protests socialized medicine or what Obama stands for has got to be mostly brain washed morons and hillbilly racists.
If they take over health care it's going to be the biggest cluster **** this country has ever seen.

Even for Californians.:D

[LosAngelesSooner]

Keep tellin' yourself that.

I'll be the one giggling when I'm proven right AGAIN despite all your worries and indignation.

[picasso]

Keep tellin' yourself that.

I'll be the one giggling when I'm proven right AGAIN despite all your worries and indignation.

About what exactly? I'm not worried about anything my brother.

Have you ever been to a government run health clinic? I have many many times over. You just wait and see how skippy it is.

congrats on being proven umm right on an internet goober message board.

[soonerscuba]

Does anyone else see the irony of people claiming Obama has taken their rights by use of public protest?

While I disagree with the motives, and seriously doubt they have any policy points beyond hysterical delusion, at least they are cognizant to a political process, so kudos for the wacky signs. For the record, I felt the exact same way about the same mobs in 2003.

[Soonerus]

Just keep giving them enough rope...

[picasso]

You mean like the folks out protesting Bush's war who are strangely silent now?

I never once saw any goofballs out protesting terrorism.

you guys just wait for nationalized health care. Long lines even with an appointment. You don't get to pick a doctor.
Your pending treatment must be approved by a committee.

We need a blood test for point B but you have to go to point A for it so they can send it to point B. Then report back to point B...

[Soonerus]

Why do you guys beat each other brainless on "no winner" issues like this ???

[picasso]

Why do you guys beat each other brainless on "no winner" issues like this ???

Well I for one don't like it when people cry dissent for nearly a decade and then poop a wad when it happens to their guy.

[LosAngelesSooner]

About what exactly? I'm not worried about anything my brother.

Have you ever been to a government run health clinic? I have many many times over. You just wait and see how skippy it is.
I have.

There's a bit of a difference between that and what's proposed, however.


congrats on being proven umm right on an internet goober message board.
Oh, shut it. :D

And I was referring to my assessment of Dubya circa 2004, btw.

[LosAngelesSooner]

You mean like the folks out protesting Bush's war who are strangely silent now?

I never once saw any goofballs out protesting terrorism.

you guys just wait for nationalized health care. Long lines even with an appointment. You don't get to pick a doctor.
Your pending treatment must be approved by a committee.

We need a blood test for point B but you have to go to point A for it so they can send it to point B. Then report back to point B...
Funny.

I was just in a nation with socialized health care and had to use it while I was down there and it was nothing like this. There were no lines. I picked my doctor. I didn't have to wait at all. The treatment was cheap and fast and effective. There were NO committees in sight.

I guess that the U.S. is NO New Zealand, though... ;)

[picasso]

Funny.

I was just in a nation with socialized health care and had to use it while I was down there and it was nothing like this. There were no lines. I picked my doctor. I didn't have to wait at all. The treatment was cheap and fast and effective. There were NO committees in sight.

I guess that the U.S. is NO New Zealand, though... ;)

Well apparently it's not. I'd be all for it if it were such a Utopian wonder and we could actually afford it and make it work.

But then again New Zealand doesn't quite have the overhead that we do.

[soonerscuba]

Well I for one don't like it when people cry dissent for nearly a decade and then poop a wad when it happens to their guy.Oh, it was silly when they did it to Bush as well. I didn't like Bush, but it centered around the fact that I thought he was inept at administrative function and on the wrong side of policy, not borne of some fanatical fear that he would somehow make a major alteration in my daily life. There are millions of people that think Obama is on the wrong side of policy, which is fine, and as for administrative function, I think it's far too early to tell. However, let's not kid ourselves, people engaged in protest against the government while fully within their rights, aren't exactly coming from a nuanced position, what with angry mob and everything regardless of the tea party or G20 summit in which you are currently all in a tizzy.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Well apparently it's not. I'd be all for it if it were such a Utopian wonder and we could actually afford it and make it work.

But then again New Zealand doesn't quite have the overhead that we do.Nor do they have the income and variety of industry. They are primarily an agricultural and tourism based economy with wool and lamb being their top products.

We earn JUUUUST a little bit more than they do.

And Canada ain't exactly a post-apocalyptic society either, ya know. ;)

[picasso]

LAS, you never actually SEE the committee. I had to wait it out to get cancer treatment and if we wanted to get our newborn son circumcised we'd still be waiting on that one.

Call me crazy for thinking this takeover has as much to do with power as it does with helping out the peoples.

[picasso]

Nor do they have the income and variety of industry. They are primarily an agricultural and tourism based economy with wool and lamb being their top products.

We earn JUUUUST a little bit more than they do.

And Canada ain't exactly a post-apocalyptic society either, ya know. ;)

Variety, that's it! Kiss it goodbye if this happens.

[KC//CRIMSON]

But then again New Zealand doesn't quite have the overhead that we do.

If its good enough for Gollum, its good enough for you!

[picasso]

If its good enough for Gollum, its good enough for you!

I thought he self-medicated.:D

[LosAngelesSooner]

LAS, you never actually SEE the committee. I had to wait it out to get cancer treatment and if we wanted to get our newborn son circumcised we'd still be waiting on that one.

Call me crazy for thinking this takeover has as much to do with power as it does with helping out the peoples.That's under the assumption (and that's a 100 years from now worst case assumption at BEST) that we would become an ENTIRELY socialized nation with regards to health care.

In actuality we'd only be about 5% socialized.

And NZ still has private hospitals and private health care as options, by the way. So if you lived there and wanted a circumcision, you could quite easily still get it done (for your child...heh). And the cost would STILL be lower than in the States because of the public option.

And the meds are EASILY 200-300% less expensive down there than they are up here.

And I never saw a committee...and if there WAS some kind of secret, invisible committee then they had to make a quick decision while hiding in the closet because I was treated immediately even though I was a dirty illegal alien leeching off the system.

On a side note, I'm glad you kicked your cancer and are doing well now.

[JLEW1818]

so las why don't you vote democrat, instead of republican, like u claim

[LosAngelesSooner]

so las why don't you vote democrat, instead of republican, like u claim
I vote for the PERSON not the PARTY.

Why can't you guys do that? That's really my question. I mean, who on Earth would vote Party Line blindly? I think that's absolute idiocy.

I voted for Dubya in 2000 (though I wanted McCain) and I voted for Kerry in 2004 (while I held my nose).

And in the locals I always vote on the issues and the people.

Never "vote Republican" or "vote Democrat"

[12]

I think Rush and LAS might be the same person... just holding a strange little puppet show.

[IGotNoTiming]

picasso

not really sure where you are getting your info about "socialized" medicine. I have been to Europe several times. I have seen firsthand how it works and it blows our healthcare system off the map. My buddy had a root canal done as a walk in, and the next day was suffering very little pain and was at work like nothing had happened. You have bought into the propaganda that has been soiling our media.... ahem excuse me.... FOX has been spreading.... What is wrong with the legislation being pushed through now is that it lacks teeth. it is watered down and may not help anyone. I guess we will see.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

picasso

not really sure where you are getting your info about "socialized" medicine. I have been to Europe several times. I have seen firsthand how it works and it blows our healthcare system off the map. My buddy had a root canal done as a walk in, and the next day was suffering very little pain and was at work like nothing had happened. You have bought into the propaganda that has been soiling our media.... ahem excuse me.... FOX has been spreading.... What is wrong with the legislation being pushed through now is that it lacks teeth. it is watered down and may not help anyone. I guess we will see.nice! how does the 2000 pg document lack teeth, haha?

[LosAngelesSooner]

nice! how does the 2000 pg document lack teeth, haha?Well...OBVIOUSLY you've read it, right?

Why don't you tell US what the teeth are...?

[soonerhubs]

I love how you people on both sides of the fence think that anecdotal evidence is good evidence. Do you people even understand science?

[AlbqSooner]

What I love is how people support and defend this health care reform bill before it has even been made public. Precisely which of the many incarnations are you supporting? Will you still support it once the myriad amendments are slipped in - err I mean added on?

The certainty with which posters state that the bill does or does not provide for some specific makes me wonder where I missed the course on clairvoyance.

[StoopTroup]

I remember that New Zealand trip you went on LAS. Wasn't your Co-Pilot the Doctor? :D ;)

http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons1/301/3019466/27_2009/b54bc121c557db30_Picture_3.larger.jpg

You have a Doctor on-board? And it's FREE! OMG! I can't wait to tell the Oval!

http://www.media.asia/DigitalMedia/images/articles/2009_05/35586_story_images.jpg

[King Barry's Back]

I skipped most of this thread because, well, I am at work and don't have time to read the whole.

But somebody above made a statement about socialized medicine in New Zealand, and it reminded me.

I just read a really great article in a pretty left magazine (I believe it was the The Atlantic, or the New Yorker, I think I still have it so I can check it.)

This was the best article on health care reform I ever read.

Long story short -- The author had suffered from near fatal breat cancer, a type that she WOULD HAVE DIED FROM just a few years ago. Thank God, a new medicine has recently been developed that raises the survivability of this type of breast cancer from like 10% to 80% (very rough figures).

This medicine requires 16 treatments, at $4000 a piece. A nice chunk of change, but if it means you live, well worth it.

Her US insurance paid for the entire treatment, no questions.

So she then travelled to NZ to study the way their social health system deals with this drug.

Basically, the government simply denied paying for this drug for women because they claimed it was "unproven," or something like that.

There were apparently near riots from sick women demanding this medicine. She sites examples of families mortgaging homes to raise enough money for treatments, and paying for, say, 12 treatments, or 10 treatments, and hoping that that is enough.

SO the NZ govt changed it's policy and allowed to pay for three treatments. Which is helpful, but it still leaves families with the decision of paying privately for the treatments and how many, etc.

What I am relaying here is all facts (as best I remember them), assuming the author was telling the truth, and I think she was. But from a political side, Americans are just not very receptive to a govt committee or board of experts deciding for them which treatments they are allowed to have. I guess under a social medicine format we would still have private clinics -- and private supplemental insurance would still be available to pay for extraordinary things (like that cancer treatment).

I know now that if i have to, I can fly home to the best medical care in the world, and I am worried that I would lose that option under current proposals.

[King Barry's Back]

picasso

not really sure where you are getting your info about "socialized" medicine. I have been to Europe several times. I have seen firsthand how it works and it blows our healthcare system off the map. My buddy had a root canal done as a walk in, and the next day was suffering very little pain and was at work like nothing had happened. You have bought into the propaganda that has been soiling our media.... ahem excuse me.... FOX has been spreading.... What is wrong with the legislation being pushed through now is that it lacks teeth. it is watered down and may not help anyone. I guess we will see.

I agree with you on a lot of that. I have lived in Belgium and Germany, and my wife is from Italy and my daughter was born there, and you can walk in and get an appointment. In Belgium, doctors still "come home," -- do house calls.

I have to say aspects of that are superior to my experience with US healthcare -- especially in the overcrowded hospitals and clinics around Washington, DC.

And in terms of traditional diagnosis by observation and notation of symptoms, the doctors in Europe seem to be superior. American doctors seem beholden to tests (probably because of fears of litigation, which is another issue for another thread.)

But still, if you NEED top of the line technology and cutting edge treatment, you would NOT get it in Belgium, or in Italy. Germany I'm too new to say.

[King Barry's Back]

I vote for the PERSON not the PARTY.

Why can't you guys do that? That's really my question. I mean, who on Earth would vote Party Line blindly? I think that's absolute idiocy.

I voted for Dubya in 2000 (though I wanted McCain) and I voted for Kerry in 2004 (while I held my nose).

And in the locals I always vote on the issues and the people.

Never "vote Republican" or "vote Democrat"

OK, I'll play devil's advocate and take your challenge.

SHOULD one never vote "blindly" by party, always casting their ballot based on a case-by-case evaluation of the "best person"?

Well, let's say you as an individual generally believe in a limited-govt model, with economic activity left to be regulated by the market, and that a primary role of US foreign policy is to aggressively pursue American interest abroad. You also believe that "traditional" values stressing nuclear marriage and family should be our national ideal, and that criminals are mostly self-interested and violent, greedy individuals that should be punished severely to "straighten them out."

--OR--

You believe that the American system is heavily weighted towards the benefit of the rich and connected, and therefore the govt should actively protect the weak, poor, uneducated and elderly. You also believe that crime is a mostly a result of economic disadvantage, and favor rehabilitation over tough sentencing to reduce crime. And, you generally think that US foreign policy should embrace multi-cultural themes of acceptance and understanding of differences, and encourage other countries to follow their own interests. You also feel deeply that national culture should be "inclusive" to the fullest extent possible -- meaning that all types of "life-styles" should be accepted, embraced and encouraged.

Well then, to me, if you are either of these straw men, then it's pretty clear that you have a pretty strong vested interest in one or the other party having control of the executive branch (which is all the agencies from the Army to the Social Security office to the air traffic controllers). And, as you'd probably like to see your preferences maintained and expanded through law and budget resources, you'd also have a strong vested interest in one party or the other having significant influence in Congress, as well.

In fact, I think you might decide that a fool who will do his/her best to govern along the values that you believe in, would do less damage than a gifted and effective leader who is fighting against all that you hold dear.

And further, I will add that the person "blindly" voting party could well hold a more fully considered and sophisticated understanding of govt and politics than another person who "blindly" chooses the "best one."

But that's just me.

[jkjsooner]

About what exactly? I'm not worried about anything my brother.

Have you ever been to a government run health clinic? I have many many times over. You just wait and see how skippy it is.

congrats on being proven umm right on an internet goober message board.


I did just the other day. I got my H1N1 vaccine. (I have a 6 week old child which puts me on the priority list and I do not want to bring home the flu to him.)

I got there at 7 AM. The doors opened at 8:30. By 9:15 or so I was done. It was a very efficiently run organization. One of the most efficient and organized programs I've ever dealt with. I give it an A+.

It definitely wasn't run by the DMV.

[Condescending Sooner]

I did just the other day. I got my H1N1 vaccine. (I have a 6 week old child which puts me on the priority list and I do not want to bring home the flu to him.)

I got there at 7 AM. The doors opened at 8:30. By 9:15 or so I was done. It was a very efficiently run organization. One of the most efficient and organized programs I've ever dealt with. I give it an A+.

It definitely wasn't run by the DMV.

It was probably a County health department. Easier to manage.

[MamaMia]

Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test.

Murray Benton has had to wait more than two years for life-saving heart surgery promised by Auckland City Hospital.

That's more than 18 months longer than he should have had to wait under the Government's strict policy of offering surgery only to those who can be treated within six months.

It has been a time of worry and lost opportunities for Mr Benton, who has had to give up many physical activities, and even watching rugby on television, to minimise his exercise- and stress-induced attacks of angina pain.

As well as helping him avoid a repeat heart attack, he hopes the surgery will enable him to do things like help with house alterations for one of his daughters and to return to riding his surf-ski.

A 64-year-old buildings and maintenance manager from Albany, Mr Benton has been booked for surgery at least three times, only to be shunted down the waiting list at the last minute because of other, more urgent cases and the hospital's aim that the operation be done by a surgeon involved in his first heart surgery in 1983.

Yesterday, the hospital told Mr Benton it had booked him for surgery next Thursday, but could not guarantee it would be done then. The phone call came after the Herald inquired about his case and Mr Benton's wife Sue suspects this spurred the hospital into action - but a hospital spokeswoman said the booking had already been made.

National Party health spokesman Tony Ryall said Mr Benton was a victim of the Government's "hoax promise" of surgery within six months.

"Despite the billions of extra dollars going into health, people like him are waiting extraordinary lengths of time to get vitally needed surgery."

Mr Benton had a heart attack without warning in 1983. He was given a triple bypass operation. In December 2004, after suffering chest pain, he was admitted to North Shore Hospital for eight days. He says he was put on the surgery waiting list then, but Auckland City Hospital maintains it was in December 2005.

Mr Benton accepts the need to treat acutely sick patients ahead of him, but believes the hospital must have insufficient resources if it cannot cope with its elective-surgery patients.

"It's a fairly major operation. You build yourself up to it and when it doesn't happen, it's like being on a roller-coaster."

The general manager of the hospital's cardiac service, Kay Hyman, said the aim of having a particular surgeon treat Mr Benton had restricted the opportunities to schedule Mr Benton's surgery.


She said there had been a significant reduction in the number of patients waiting for heart surgery in the past two years.

JOIN THE QUEUE

February 28, 2006: Auckland District Health Board had 341 patients waiting for heart surgery; 88 of them had waited for more than six months.

February 29, 2008: 225 people waiting; 31 for more than six months.




http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/nzcoaster2.html

[FaninAma]

Social Security and Medicare are the bomb. They are efficiently ran government programs that will never, ever run out of money. Why not put healthcare under government control. I am sure they will do at least as good of a job as they have done with Medicare and Social Secutiry.

:D

[JohnnyMack]

If you're stupid enough to believe that the numbers that are being thrown around in this bill are anywhere close to reality then you probably also think that next year Oklahoma State wins the BCS title. The problem I have with this whole concept is that there is (shockingly) no transparency at all in terms of what this "reform" will truly cost. I know Obama mandated that it wouldn't cost more than 900 billion and they came up with a 894 or so billion dollar plan and conveniently moved more spending (an additional 250 billion) over to a separate bill (google: doc fix bill). If you trust this government and what it's telling you right now then you are basically a moron. Or you're utterly naive. Or both.

While the concept of healthcare reform is something I can get behind, what I can't get my arms around is the idea that our government should be doing this kind of spending in the first place. This spending bill is the worst sort of pandering to a constituency that's come down the pipe in a long time. Our elected leadership is not promoting individual responsibility. They're increasing bureaucracy and shifting financial burdens but they aren't reducing costs.

[StoopTroup]

I think arguing about who's Medical Plan is best is asinine anyway.

As Humans we should all want to see medical care be the best it can possibly be.

The reason we're seeing changes being proposed is that there should be better care for everyone in the US.

It's not fine. Saying it is fine is nearly criminal IMO.

Our Medical Community has been feeding on itself since Americans started feeling like Doctors made to much money. Now there is a lack of Specialty Physicians. Our system is broken. We can always do better. Having the Government get involved may not be a good idea...but the fact remains...things are not getting better for Americans. Costs are going out of site and people whose lives are changed forever due to the huge bills hanging over their heads after major surgery has had to be done has also had an effect on forcing these changes.

[Scott D]

LAS, you never actually SEE the committee. I had to wait it out to get cancer treatment and if we wanted to get our newborn son circumcised we'd still be waiting on that one.

Call me crazy for thinking this takeover has as much to do with power as it does with helping out the peoples.

why? Just schedule a free appointment in Gainesville, FL....I'm sure in the break between the SEC title game and their BCS bowl Timmy can fit your son into his schedule. ;)