I have held my fire for 1 season

[soonervegas]

2008 OU/Texas 4th Quarter 35-38 D needs a big stop, result 35-45

2009 OU/Florida 4th Quarter 14-17 D needs a big stop, result 14-24

2009 OU/Byu 4th Quarter 13-7 D needs a big stop, result 13-14

2009 OU/Miami 4th Quarter 20-21 D needs a big stop, result 20-21

[Petro-Sooner]

No way!!! Last week we were the greatest ever according to fools that posted here. Great defense. :rolleyes: Its was tulsa.......

[tulsaoilerfan]

But we dominated Tulsa 2 weeks ago!!!

[meoveryouxinfinity]

We don't know how to win close games. Only ones I can really think of recently are OSU last year, where we pulled away late, ISU 2007 where we won 17-10 or whatever after losing to Colorado the week before, a few Mizzou games where the final score was closer than the actual game, and that Texas A&M 11 men on the field game.

[rawlingsHOH]

Our D was decent.

Didn't play as well against the run as I would have hoped.

[Hotrod3157]

Sadly it was a repeat of the last few big games. Our D is actually really good giving up 14 points, can't fault them for the turnover and extremely short field. I just don't know why when the game is on the line we just can't get the stop or maybe I do but I'll keep the BV bashing to a minimum. Tonight the D had the chance to make a huge play and swing the momentum over to us and Franks drops a pick 6. BYU and tonight when the other team got the ball late in the game with our D on the field. The thought never crossed my mind that we would actually get the stop. The last few years have sapped my faith in the D making the play when its needed.

[Eielson]

Our defense has given up 8.5 points per game this season. I really don't think much more needs to be said.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Gotta make the stops when the game is on the line; a Brent Venables defense fails miserably at this WAY too many times

[rainiersooner]

I'm not going to put the loss on the D. But we all knew we went in the game with the D needing to win it...and they did not. I conclude that since 2000, we have not had a game winning D.

[Jdog]

Sadly it was a repeat of the last few big games. Our D is actually really good giving up 14 points, can't fault them for the turnover and extremely short field. I just don't know why when the game is on the line we just can't get the stop or maybe I do but I'll keep the BV bashing to a minimum. Tonight the D had the chance to make a huge play and swing the momentum over to us and Franks drops a pick 6. BYU and tonight when the other team got the ball late in the game with our D on the field. The thought never crossed my mind that we would actually get the stop. The last few years have sapped my faith in the D making the play when its needed.

Come on, they where exposed tonight - as always. No passion except for Beals and finally Murray late

Franks coverage has been awful - until the pass you mentioned

Franks was also the weak link bad against BYU.

[rawlingsHOH]

I'm not going to put the loss on the D. But we all knew we went in the game with the D needing to win it...and they did not. I conclude that since 2000, we have not had a game winning D.
Our 2001 defense was better than 2000.

2000 was just bailed out early in the year by an explosive offense. When Heupel got hurt, the D peaked.

We were so fortunate in 2000. Not a SINGLE game missed to injury for the starters.

[VA Sooner]

Lots of injuries in the last 4 games... but I think the turning point for tonight's game was the fumble when Landry got hit from the right from an unblocked pass rusher. Easy 11 yard pass (although through 4 defenders) and a great pass by the receiver and it changed momentum of the game for the second half.

We played catchup for the rest of the night and got to within 1 point but not enough. That turnover hurt.

The Franks interception/pick six would have helped... but the momentum was with Miami until the defense picked up early in the fourth.

We have a poor track record on the road...

[Petro-Sooner]

Wheres that thread two weeks ago about how great the D was??? :rolleyes:

[mightysooner]

They were gouged on run after run by an offensive line that was criticized last week for being terrible. And of course...they have a banner night against our all NFL defensive front 7. I got tired of seeing Miami's RB's carry 3-4 sooners on their backs for big gains all night. This D is overrated. Outside of Beal, not one D-linemen had a presence out there tonight. AND....I'm tired of us being weak over the middle season in and season out. People just drag route us to death because we can't cover a pass over the middle. Enough...

[OlRedMagic]

Our defense has given up 8.5 points per game this season. I really don't think much more needs to be said.

Other than you are incredibly mediocre minded. But then again, I guess that didn't need to be said either, eh?

[OlRedMagic]

They were gouged on run after run by an offensive line that was criticized last week for being terrible. And of course...they have a banner night against our all NFL defensive front 7. I got tired of seeing Miami's RB's carry 3-4 sooners on their backs for big gains all night. This D is overrated. Outside of Beal, not one D-linemen had a presence out there tonight. AND....I'm tired of us being weak over the middle season in and season out. People just drag route us to death because we can't cover a pass over the middle. Enough...

Vulnerables is in over his head. He's incompetent and has been exposed time after time, yet Stoops keeps him, why??? Because he's getting 4 mil a year and doesn't give a **** if he craps out a garbage product. It's time he feels some heat.

[itsok]

where was G mckoy?????

[rawlingsHOH]

where was G mckoy?????

HAD to be sick. I've never seen him like that before.

[JBIILonghorns]

Mike Stoops. OU needs him back.

[ocsooner]

Mike Stoops. OU needs him back.

Why does everyone keep bringing his name up. Yea, the defense was great with Mike, but they had their flops also. Time makes you forget the bad things. Although, this is going to be hard to forget...

At least with 2 losses, we have a good chance at winning our bowl game.

[westbrooke]

Our defense has given up 8.5 points per game this season. I really don't think much more needs to be said.

Get off the field on 3rd down! I think that needs to be said.

I remember when a 3rd down against our D was the same as a punt. Now it seems like a guaranteed big play. We sit back and wait for a pass to be caught. Granted, we're great at stopping YAC, but the initial catch is something we seem all too willing to concede.

[wishbonesooner]

As much as it hurts, we all have to face facts and realize what people all over the country already know and we try to ignore. Bob Stoops is no longer one of the elite coaches. He isn't in the same league as Urban Meyer, Pete Carroll, Nick Saban, maybe not even Mack Brown. He just isn't. I still want him to be our coach, but he isn't motivating players with the strength of his personality. And I don't think he is motivating his coaching staff either. Time to face facts.

[jduggle]

I'm sure locals feel different, but where I am on the east coast, Stoops is not held in high regard (that's putting it mildly) and the Oklahoma program is continually described as overrated. Stoops is a good coach, but he's now the Microsoft and the Meyer's, Carroll's, Saban's, etc are the Google's.

I think Stoops biggest problem is that he's stopped innovating. Think about how earlier in the decade we would see new wrinkles on O and D and how they usually caught the opponent off guard. No one knew how to game plan OU because Stoops would always do something unique.

[btk108]

What is with the secondary mentality? We used to punish recievers when they caught the ball and then they spent the rest of the game worrying about getting hit and not catching the ball. NOW...we give them plenty of cushion and push them out of bounds or drag them down OR we go for the pick.

[Soonerus]

I thought the D played pretty well, one Miami TD gift-wrapped otherwise 14 points...not bad...

[jduggle]

One "gift-wrapped" Miami TD is the difference between a D playing "pretty well" and a D that gave up one too many big plays.

No excuses...the truth is the D gave up too many 3rd down plays too. I haven't checked the stats but Miami converted most 3rd downs.

[Soonerus]

The D played pretty well...

[Gresho Murford]

Vulnerables is in over his head. He's incompetent and has been exposed time after time, yet Stoops keeps him, why??? Because he's getting 4 mil a year and doesn't give a **** if he craps out a garbage product. It's time he feels some heat.

u are retarded

[StoopTroup]

2008 OU/Texas 4th Quarter 35-38 D needs a big stop, result 35-45

2009 OU/Florida 4th Quarter 14-17 D needs a big stop, result 14-24

2009 OU/Byu 4th Quarter 13-7 D needs a big stop, result 13-14

2009 OU/Miami 4th Quarter 20-21 D needs a big stop, result 20-21

Nice Flamebait thread.

[Soonerus]

He should try to list all of the great plays by our D in recent years...I am sure he can't, not in his DNA...

[The_Red_Patriot]

You people are morons!

You are really going to put these losses on Brent Venables?

Give me freaking break......Kevin Wilson is responsible for losses against Colorado and Texas Tech in 2007, Florida, BYU and now Miami. In all of these games he totally went vanilla and lost his manhood with the play calling.

The defense simply cant be on the field all game.

[StoopTroup]

Well...it's a meltdown thread. You can't have stuff like that in them.

[soonervegas]

I am sorry the facts hurt your feelers.

You guys were probably some of the same sunshine pumpers back in the Blake days.

[jduggle]

You people are morons!

You are really going to put these losses on Brent Venables?

Give me freaking break......Kevin Wilson is responsible for losses against Colorado and Texas Tech in 2007, Florida, BYU and now Miami. In all of these games he totally went vanilla and lost his manhood with the play calling.

The defense simply cant be on the field all game.

No doubt about it. Wilson cost us the NC last year with his stellar goal line calls, too.

But I don't know... seems to me Benjamin was wide open and Miami was 8-13 on 3rd downs.

[Gresho Murford]

We held them to 21 points. That with them gettin a TO inside the 20. So thats not on the D really. Their other games they scored 38, 33, and 7. The 7 was b/c VTech is always a bad *** team, it was raining, and it was at VTech. I like the way we played, just couldn't quite get to Harris soon enough. I bet he is hurting today though.

[PLaw]

Our defense has given up 8.5 points per game this season. I really don't think much more needs to be said.

Just goes to show that the numbers can be manipulated to tell any story you want.

The jury is still out on the D until we get into Big 12 play.

One thing is for certain, when the SOONERS need a big stop - a three and out, the D can't get off of the field.


Here's to another Big 12 Championship.

BOOMER

[StoopTroup]

I am sorry the facts hurt your feelers.

You guys were probably some of the same sunshine pumpers back in the Blake days.
You ain't hurting my feelings. Losing to Miami hurts a lot worse than any lame post like what you posted can do.

[OUmillenium]

Get off the field on 3rd down! I think that needs to be said.

I remember when a 3rd down against our D was the same as a punt. Now it seems like a guaranteed big play. We sit back and wait for a pass to be caught. Granted, we're great at stopping YAC, but the initial catch is something we seem all too willing to concede.

Exactly. 3rd downs under Venables D against a decent team are a joke. Its almost an automatic first down. Ever feel safe when it is 3rd and 17? No way. Vulnerables got totally schooled last night. Luckily, the 2 early interceptions stopped drives because we had done little else to slow down Miami. Could have easily been a 35 - 20 game.

[prrriiide]

plus 3 games. No more.

Venables is not the answer. I was hopeful after pitching back-to-back shutouts, but also kept in mind the competition.

Twice during the 4th quarter last night, ABC cut to Venables. Both times he looked like a deer in the headlights. Literally. His facial expression was one of disbelief and horror, like he had just walked in on his parents getting freaky in the sack or something.

For the last two weeks I have told anyone that asked, and even posted up on a couple of boards (including this one) that my main concern defensively was Miami's short passing game, and specifically RR's struggles in coverage.

If a (slightly) pudgy middle-aged tuba player living 1000 miles from Norman can see that this is going to be a challenge 2 weeks ahead of time, why are we paying Venables 6 figures to get taken behind the woodshed and butt-secksed on national TV AGAIN??

Against inferior competition and inferior coaching, Venables defense looks like a brick wall. Against inferior competition and competent coaching, Venables defense looks just decent. Against competent competition and good coaching, Venables defense looks like a seive. Our defense out-talents just about any offense in the country. So this comes down to coaching.

Venables gameplan was a farce.

Everyone from here to Saturn KNEW Miami was going to throw the underneath timing routes. ESPECIALLY after 2 deep picks on consecutive drives. In fact, Harris never threw another pass more than 15 yards in the air after the second pick. If you want to defeat underneath timing routes, you throw off the timing. The easiest way to do that is to line up and pound the receiver right in the grill within the 5-yard cusion. So what was Dr. Venables prescription? An 8-10 yard cushion. At least 2/3 of Miami's receptions were uncontested because the receiver just ran up to the 1st down marker and turned around to find the ball in his hands.

Another coaching letdown: Keenan Clayton. He was recruited as a SAFETY. Have they not coached his coverage skills since his move to LB? He got worked all night long.

I know Wilson went into a conservative womb after Broyles went out, but in all fairness, what choice did he have? OU has no other proven deep threat. I was really pleased to see Kenney step up. Unfortunately, the Miami D seemed to realize it at about the same time our coaches started to go to him as a pseudo-primary.

Miami was able to run the ball because they always had two, often three guys on GK. Their speed allowed them to chip Beal to the outside on running plays, and Jeffries would be into the deep secondary before you could blink an eye. Even then, Beal was able to catch up and make some stops, but not until after a 5-8 yard gain.

Whipple took Venables to school last night. He outschemed him on the run game, and took advantage of BV's laugher of a pass D gameplan. It is really a tribute to the athleticism of our defensive athletes that Miami ONLY scored 3 TDs. BVs gameplan put them at a total disadvantage all night.

It's time for Venables to put on his big-boy britches and start coaching like a championship DC. If he can't do that, it's time to get someone who will.

[Eielson]

Other than you are incredibly mediocre minded. But then again, I guess that didn't need to be said either, eh?

They gave up 21 points, 7 of which the offense handed them, to the #17 ranked team in the nation. That's a hell of a lot better than mediocre, especially considering this was the worst defensive performance of the season.

I don't see how you consider giving up 8.5 points per game mediocre at any level, especially college.

[Eielson]

HAD to be sick. I've never seen him like that before.

Are these posts serious? He was in the backfield almost every play.

[MeMyself&Me]

OK, I get people are upset about the loss. I am too. I get people are missing some of the defensive attitude we had in the early part of the decade. I am too. But to say you had enough of this defense after last night... I don't get it. I'm not getting all the complaining about the defense last night. 7 of those points were essentially on the offense, not the defense which means that the defense held them to 14 points. If you can't score more than 14 points... well, you have problems on offense.

Sure it would have been nice to stop them one more time at the end but really, how many times should a defense have to stop the other team before it should be enough. That loss is on the offense, not the defense.

[Eielson]

Get off the field on 3rd down! I think that needs to be said.

I remember when a 3rd down against our D was the same as a punt. Now it seems like a guaranteed big play. We sit back and wait for a pass to be caught. Granted, we're great at stopping YAC, but the initial catch is something we seem all too willing to concede.

The primary goal is stop them from scoring points. Stopping them on third down is just something to help out with the primary goal. If the primary goal is accomplished, why are we complaining? This performance is COMPLETELY on the offense, more specifically the offensive line.

[Q22]

replace the word venables with wilson and I agree 100%

[SOONER44EVER]

replace the word venables with wilson and I agree 100%

I agree 100%. How can anyone say the D has lost a game this season? The offense is the problem guys.

[SoonerLB]

replace the word venables with wilson and I agree 100%

I concur! :mad:

[boomersooner28]

How are people pissed off about a defense that basically gave up 14 points on the road, to a potent offense? :confused:

I don't get it.


People, I'm gonna say this one last time. The short dink and dunk stuff underneath that pisses everyone off is our scheme. Thats the stuff we choose to give up rather than 50 yard pass TD's. Would you rather see that? We give up yardage to OUr 20 yard line, yes. BUT, thats what we are built to do. Once opponents get to OUr 20, we are VERY difficult to score on. Thats just the way it is.

[SOONER44EVER]

How are people pissed off about a defense that basically gave up 14 points on the road, to a potent offense? :confused:

I don't get it.


People, I'm gonna say this one last time. The short dink and dunk stuff underneath that pisses everyone off is our scheme. Thats the stuff we choose to give up rather than 50 yard pass TD's. Would you rather see that? We give up yardage to OUr 20 yard line, yes. BUT, thats what we are built to do. Once opponents get to OUr 20, we are VERY difficult to score on. Thats just the way it is.

I honestly think a lot of people on this board don't even watch the games.:confused:

[okiewaker]

How are people pissed off about a defense that basically gave up 14 points on the road, to a potent offense? :confused:

I don't get it.


People, I'm gonna say this one last time. The short dink and dunk stuff underneath that pisses everyone off is our scheme. Thats the stuff we choose to give up rather than 50 yard pass TD's. Would you rather see that? We give up yardage to OUr 20 yard line, yes. BUT, thats what we are built to do. Once opponents get to OUr 20, we are VERY difficult to score on. Thats just the way it is.

Well, a scheme that lets them get to the 20 needs to be changed to the one that doesn't let them get a first down. ;)

There, better.

[TopDawg]

Exactly. Enough with the "good between the 20's scheme." Put in the "no-first downs" scheme. I can't believe Venables and Stoops continue to choose an inferior scheme when they could just as easily put in a scheme that would give up no yards at all.

[SOONER44EVER]

Exactly. Enough with the "good between the 20's scheme." Put in the "no-first downs" scheme. I can't believe Venables and Stoops continue to choose an inferior scheme when they could just as easily put in a scheme that would give up no yards at all.

heh!

[jduggle]

How are people pissed off about a defense that basically gave up 14 points on the road, to a potent offense? :confused:

I don't get it.


People, I'm gonna say this one last time. The short dink and dunk stuff underneath that pisses everyone off is our scheme. Thats the stuff we choose to give up rather than 50 yard pass TD's. Would you rather see that? We give up yardage to OUr 20 yard line, yes. BUT, thats what we are built to do. Once opponents get to OUr 20, we are VERY difficult to score on. Thats just the way it is.

You're probably going to have to say it again. Because it seems to me that this scheme doesn't work against good teams and certainly has proved to be pretty ineffective on the road and moreover, totally over matched in bowl games.

Where's Curly Bill??

[MyT Oklahoma]

I come to soonerfans.com mainly to read what others have to say. This thread is just one example of others providing food for thought. Thanks for your observations.

[MyT Oklahoma]

I honestly think a lot of people on this board don't even watch the games.:confused:

^^ One of the best lines of the day.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

While the defense didn't lose the game, it didn't help.

They gave up 5.7 yards per play. That is too much.

[soon3rfan]

I think it is time to start looking for a new OC.

[SOONER44EVER]

You're probably going to have to say it again. Because it seems to me that this scheme doesn't work against good teams and certainly has proved to be pretty ineffective on the road and moreover, totally over matched in bowl games.

Where's Curly Bill??

This scheme won't work against anyone if the offense doesn't put points on the board. There is only ONE defensive stat that matters. Points allowed. We are #4 in the nation in this category. Once again, the defense is not the problem.

[jduggle]

Benjamin was wide open. Wasn't a defender near him.

[prrriiide]

I agree 100%. How can anyone say the D has lost a game this season? The offense is the problem guys.

I'm not saying the defense lost the game. I am saying that the defensive coordinator lost the game. When you are late in the 4th and you MUST HAVE a stop, don't play a 10-yard cushion against a team that lives and dies by the timing pattern! That is a complete breakdown in strategy, and that goes directly to the coordinator.

Do I think Wilson was too conservative? Yes. But I also think he did a decent job, given that injuries have filleted our offense like a sea bass. Of course the offense is a glaring problem. But it is not un-workable. The defense was at 100%. The players mostly played a great game. The coordinator's strategy stunk up the stadium.

I expect a championship-caliber coordinator's defense to be able to come up with a stop on 3rd and 6. I expect that a championship-caliber coordinator's gameplan will be able to put the clamps on in that situation and not give up that 8-10 yard cushion that Miami exploited all night, and that everyone in the human race knew they would. ADJUST! Every person watching that game KNEW that the 3rd down play would be an 8-yard out timing pattern to the left. Every time they completed that play last night it went for a first down.

Did BV think Miami forgot how to play their short passing game after the Blacksburg debacle? Stupidity is often defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Allowing that 3rd & 6 to happen last night is a glaring example of stupidity. Did BV REALLY expect a different result from the other half dozen times Miami ran that EXACT same play?

Whipple outcoached Venables last night, and it wasn't even close. Even with that shytty gameplan, our D held that potent offense to 14 points in their own house. Imagine what this crew could do with a DC that could compete coaching-wise with these big-time OCs.


Well, a scheme that lets them get to the 20 needs to be changed to the one that doesn't let them get a first down.

When you MUST HAVE a stop to have a chance at winning the game, you're damm skippy. BV's play-calling never gave the D a chance to make that critical stop, or quite a few others throughout the game.

[CBUS_SOONER]

I honestly think a lot of people on this board don't even watch the games.:confused:

Or have ever played a sport

[SOONER44EVER]

Or have ever played a sport

That too.

[silverwheels]

LOL. I'VE PLAYED EVERY SPORT EVER SO I KNOW MORE THAN PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET.

[SOONER44EVER]

I'm not saying the defense lost the game. I am saying that the defensive coordinator lost the game. When you are late in the 4th and you MUST HAVE a stop, don't play a 10-yard cushion against a team that lives and dies by the timing pattern! That is a complete breakdown in strategy, and that goes directly to the coordinator.

Do I think Wilson was too conservative? Yes. But I also think he did a decent job, given that injuries have filleted our offense like a sea bass. Of course the offense is a glaring problem. But it is not un-workable. The defense was at 100%. The players mostly played a great game. The coordinator's strategy stunk up the stadium.

I expect a championship-caliber coordinator's defense to be able to come up with a stop on 3rd and 6. I expect that a championship-caliber coordinator's gameplan will be able to put the clamps on in that situation and not give up that 8-10 yard cushion that Miami exploited all night, and that everyone in the human race knew they would. ADJUST! Every person watching that game KNEW that the 3rd down play would be an 8-yard out timing pattern to the left. Every time they completed that play last night it went for a first down.

Did BV think Miami forgot how to play their short passing game after the Blacksburg debacle? Stupidity is often defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Allowing that 3rd & 6 to happen last night is a glaring example of stupidity. Did BV REALLY expect a different result from the other half dozen times Miami ran that EXACT same play?

Whipple outcoached Venables last night, and it wasn't even close. Even with that shytty gameplan, our D held that potent offense to 14 points in their own house. Imagine what this crew could do with a DC that could compete coaching-wise with these big-time OCs.



When you MUST HAVE a stop to have a chance at winning the game, you're damm skippy. BV's play-calling never gave the D a chance to make that critical stop, or quite a few others throughout the game.

I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying if the offense did their job the D wouldn't have even been in this position. Not yesterday. Not playing BYU or Florida either.

[FaninAma]

Two words for you of you thought Wilson
did a good job.
Play action. It may just be one word.

Whatever, Wilson apparently has never
heard of the word.

[SOONER44EVER]

Two words for you of you thought Wilson
did a good job.
Play action. It may just be one word.

Whatever, Wilson apparently has never
heard of the word.

2 more words. Common sense.

[StoopTroup]

I honestly think a lot of people on this board don't even watch the games.:confused:

Then there are those of us that spend hours pouring over tape...making comments on a message board and then being told we should let the ones who watch the highlights the next day make comments about firing a Coach or blabbering about how the OC and/or the DC ruined their life because they lost a $20 bet to some aggie at work...

Me...I store my DVRd games for the slow off season and await the blabbering that is sure to come if we don't win it all each and every year.

:pop:

[prrriiide]

Then there are those of us that spend hours pouring over tape...making comments on a message board and then being told we should let the ones who watch the highlights the next day make comments about firing a Coach or blabbering about how the OC and/or the DC ruined their life because they lost a $20 bet to some aggie at work...

Me...I store my DVRd games for the slow off season and await the blabbering that is sure to come if we don't win it all each and every year.

:pop:

All well and good. I'm glad your life allows you time to pore over tape. I don't need to re-watch debacles to know that Venables schemes cost us big games. He was DC for 2 of the 4 worst beatdowns in OU bowl history. Time and again, when OU REALLY needs a stop, his scheme does not have players in a position to make a play.

Mark it: OU will not win another BCS game while Venables is the DC.

[StoopTroup]

All well and good. I'm glad your life allows you time to pore over tape. I don't need to re-watch debacles to know that Venables schemes cost us big games. He was DC for 2 of the 4 worst beatdowns in OU bowl history. Time and again, when OU REALLY needs a stop, his scheme does not have players in a position to make a play.

Mark it: OU will not win another BCS game while Venables is the DC.

Yep...The Coaches probably only need to watch it on the field to be an expert like you.

[SOONER44EVER]

Yep...The Coaches probably only need to watch it on the field to be an expert like you.

:D

[silverwheels]

You don't have to be an expert to know that something is wrong with the schemes on both offense and defense.

[StoopTroup]

You don't have to be an expert to know that something is wrong with the schemes on both offense and defense.
Your right...all ya gotta do is expect to win it all...talk a lot of **** and then fire everyone when you don't win.

[silverwheels]

Man, this board is good at putting words in people's mouths.

[rawlingsHOH]

I honestly think a lot of people on this board don't even watch the games.:confused:
They watch, they just don't know what they are watching.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Your right...all ya gotta do is expect to win it all...talk a lot of **** and then fire everyone when you don't win.

So u are okay with losing consistently in bowl games and on the road against teams we are favored to beat? Why do you give the coaches a free pass on this?

[prrriiide]

Yep...The Coaches probably only need to watch it on the field to be an expert like you.

Disingenuous ad hominem douschebaggery.

I never claimed to be an expert. But anyone with two eyes and a brain cell rattling around in their head can see that Venables got schooled last night. Just like he did against WVU and just like he did against USC. The only good spot is that Miami is nowhere near as good offensively as those two teams were. If they were, we would have never been in that game.

[kingsby]

This scheme won't work against anyone if the offense doesn't put points on the board. There is only ONE defensive stat that matters. Points allowed. We are #4 in the nation in this category. Once again, the defense is not the problem.

Are yo kidding me, are we really going to go by these stats, do they really mean anything?

Here is a stat for you, mark my words. Whatever we score against UT the defense will give up more points and fail to get off the field when they have to. That's the only thing has any meaning to me.

In any close game we lose !!!

In the meantime I bet you our defense looks like gang busters against Baylor hell we might be #3 in the nation by the end of next week.

Maybe they'll make a MNC for defensive rankings.

WAKE UP PEOPLE !!!

[FaninAma]

2 more words. Common sense.

Please, by all means expound on your statement.

[SOONER44EVER]

Are yo kidding me, are we really going to go by these stats, do they really mean anything?

Here is a stat for you, mark my words. Whatever we score against UT the defense will give up more points and fail to get off the field when they have to. That's the only thing has any meaning to me.

In any close game we lose !!!

In the meantime I bet you our defense looks like gang busters against Baylor hell we might be #3 in the nation by the end of next week.

Maybe they'll make a MNC for defensive rankings.

WAKE UP PEOPLE !!!

So if the D gives up 3 points and we lose 3-0 its the D's fault we lose right? Just checking.

[Curly Bill]

You're probably going to have to say it again. Because it seems to me that this scheme doesn't work against good teams and certainly has proved to be pretty ineffective on the road and moreover, totally over matched in bowl games.

Where's Curly Bill??

I've long since come to the conclusion that BV is operating with an IQ of about 80. He knows what he knows about football from his years of exposure to it and that's all he knows. To think he can or will at some point come up with a plan to stop someone from exploiting what our defense is giving up in the course of the game is pie in the sky at this point. We run the same defense year after year knowing the weaknesses of it, and of course our opponents knowing the weaknesses of it as well. Any team with talent on par with, or even near ours, is able to exploit that knowledge. Our blitz scheme is the lamest there is outside some poorly coached junior high teams, and our opponents know that as well. Without Jeremy Beal being a beast last night how good does this defense look?

BV looks like a deer in the headlights during games because that's what he is. He can see the truck about to run him over but he doesn't have the mental acumen to realize he needs to get out of it's way. During games he can see the opponent picking us apart over the middle, throwing 3rd down passes in front of our DB's, but he doesn't have the mental horsepower to figure out what to do about it. Thanks for the loyalty Bob, maybe someday even you will get tired of this same old tired act. :rolleyes:

[SOONER44EVER]

Please, by all means expound on your statement.

Anyone with any common sense wouldn't call a draw on 3rd and long....................like what, 5 times?

[Curly Bill]

...and Wilson sucks even worse than BV...

...if that makes you guys feel any better. ;)

[jduggle]

Curly... I think it's more than loyalty. I've come to the conclusion that Stoops is a believer in the effectiveness of the zone defense. That Tampa 2 defense did fine in the pros for a little while, but the offenses caught up to it pretty fast. So, I can't understand it when I see most of the best defenses using man coverage and many of them moving to a 3-4 scheme.

[FaninAma]

Your right...all ya gotta do is expect to win it all...talk a lot of **** and then fire everyone when you don't win.

I don't think even the most critical
discussion of the coach's performance
this season is going to impact any
important decisions by the athletic
department or OU's Administration.

And I don't think it is unreasonable
for fans to question some(or even a
lot) of the coaching staff's decisions
in the road/neutral site losses this
program has suffered the past 4 years.

[canes4ever]

plus 3 games. No more.

Venables is not the answer. I was hopeful after pitching back-to-back shutouts, but also kept in mind the competition.

Twice during the 4th quarter last night, ABC cut to Venables. Both times he looked like a deer in the headlights. Literally. His facial expression was one of disbelief and horror, like he had just walked in on his parents getting freaky in the sack or something.

For the last two weeks I have told anyone that asked, and even posted up on a couple of boards (including this one) that my main concern defensively was Miami's short passing game, and specifically RR's struggles in coverage.

If a (slightly) pudgy middle-aged tuba player living 1000 miles from Norman can see that this is going to be a challenge 2 weeks ahead of time, why are we paying Venables 6 figures to get taken behind the woodshed and butt-secksed on national TV AGAIN??

Against inferior competition and inferior coaching, Venables defense looks like a brick wall. Against inferior competition and competent coaching, Venables defense looks just decent. Against competent competition and good coaching, Venables defense looks like a seive. Our defense out-talents just about any offense in the country. So this comes down to coaching.

Venables gameplan was a farce.

Everyone from here to Saturn KNEW Miami was going to throw the underneath timing routes. ESPECIALLY after 2 deep picks on consecutive drives. In fact, Harris never threw another pass more than 15 yards in the air after the second pick. If you want to defeat underneath timing routes, you throw off the timing. The easiest way to do that is to line up and pound the receiver right in the grill within the 5-yard cusion. So what was Dr. Venables prescription? An 8-10 yard cushion. At least 2/3 of Miami's receptions were uncontested because the receiver just ran up to the 1st down marker and turned around to find the ball in his hands.

Another coaching letdown: Keenan Clayton. He was recruited as a SAFETY. Have they not coached his coverage skills since his move to LB? He got worked all night long.

I know Wilson went into a conservative womb after Broyles went out, but in all fairness, what choice did he have? OU has no other proven deep threat. I was really pleased to see Kenney step up. Unfortunately, the Miami D seemed to realize it at about the same time our coaches started to go to him as a pseudo-primary.

Miami was able to run the ball because they always had two, often three guys on GK. Their speed allowed them to chip Beal to the outside on running plays, and Jeffries would be into the deep secondary before you could blink an eye. Even then, Beal was able to catch up and make some stops, but not until after a 5-8 yard gain.

Whipple took Venables to school last night. He outschemed him on the run game, and took advantage of BV's laugher of a pass D gameplan. It is really a tribute to the athleticism of our defensive athletes that Miami ONLY scored 3 TDs. BVs gameplan put them at a total disadvantage all night.

It's time for Venables to put on his big-boy britches and start coaching like a championship DC. If he can't do that, it's time to get someone who will.

After the second pick Miami's passing TDs were 18 and 40 plus,the last on a blown secondary coverage up the middle however I agree the short crossing and slant passes were working most of the night,especially with OUs LBs playing so close to the line.

[SOONER44EVER]

After the second pick Miami's passing TDs were 18 and 40 plus,the last on a blown secondary coverage up the middle however I agree the short crossing and slant passes were working most of the night,especially with OUs LBs playing so close to the line.

How did you like those cool draws we ran on 3rd and long? I think we were saving them for texas but had to break them out against you guys. Neat huh?

[prrriiide]

After the second pick Miami's passing TDs were 18 and 40 plus,the last on a blown secondary coverage up the middle however I agree the short crossing and slant passes were working most of the night,especially with OUs LBs playing so close to the line.

Most of that was YAC. The long TD was from the 38, he caught it at about the 5. So yeah, that one went for more than 15 yards. But what the he!!, when you get a gift like that blown coverage, you take it.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Curly... I think it's more than loyalty. I've come to the conclusion that Stoops is a believer in the effectiveness of the zone defense. That Tampa 2 defense did fine in the pros for a little while, but the offenses caught up to it pretty fast. So, I can't understand it when I see most of the best defenses using man coverage and many of them moving to a 3-4 scheme.

This is truth.

And the holes in Cover 2 are in the middle of the field, under the safeties. The only way to stop the bleeding is to lose the Cover 2 or watch an offense nickel and dime their way into the red zone which (check this out) brings the safeties up.

If you want to blame the coverage scheme and the overall package, don't blame Venables. Blame Stoops himself. If you want to blame the 4-3 look, don't blame Venables. Blame the 150+ yards that kid from Miami had. If you want to blame linebackers being unable to cover, don't blame Brent Venables and Ryan Reynolds. Blame bailing safeties and a no-brainer of an offensive adjustment to take advantage of the natural hole in a defensive set that Bob Stoops himself wants to run. In OTHER words...

If you feel it necessary to call for someone's head, drop a pair and call for Bob's. That way we can ridicule you for sounding like an idiot when you discover the true root of our issues.

[kingsby]

So if the D gives up 3 points and we lose 3-0 its the D's fault we lose right? Just checking.

Yep because it will be in the last minute of the game, and the other teams offense will have moved the ball 60 yards to get into field goal range.

Just saying, a good defense makes stops when the game is on the line not by some meaningless stat that was padded by inferior competition.

[ashley]

You don't have to be an expert to know that something is wrong with the schemes on both offense and defense.

Then tell us. Not in general terms but very specific.

[SOONER44EVER]

Yep because it will be in the last minute of the game, and the other teams offense will have moved the ball 60 yards to get into field goal range.

Just saying, a good defense makes stops when the game is on the line not by some meaningless stat that was padded by inferior competition.

So you'd be cool with tie games if we still had them. cool

[Curly Bill]

Then tell us. Not in general terms but very specific.

Hey, it's the athletic department secretary back to take up for her peeps. :D

Did Bob bring you breakfast this morning?

[silverwheels]

Then tell us. Not in general terms but very specific.

Or you could tell me that nothing is wrong with the schemes/coaching despite the record away from home against ranked teams in the past several years. Not in general terms but very specific.

[ashley]

Or you could tell me that nothing is wrong with the schemes/coaching despite the record away from home against ranked teams in the past several years. Not in general terms but very specific.

You have the answers. Come on.

[ashley]

Or you could tell me that nothing is wrong with the schemes/coaching despite the record away from home against ranked teams in the past several years. Not in general terms but very specific.

Just tell us the answers.

[ashley]

Draw me a play Bill. Just the quick trap against the split 6. Just one time.

[Curly Bill]

Just tell us the answers.

Listen you old fool, even someone that knows the answers, or even most of them, is not going to take the time to lay them out for some old fool like you on an internet messge board. :rolleyes:

[Curly Bill]

Draw me a play Bill. Just the quick trap against the split 6. Just one time.

Piece of cake you fool.

...and anyone that would play a split 6 is an idjit to start with.

[ashley]

Listen you old fool, even someone that knows the answers, or even most of them, is not going to take the time to lay them out for some old fool like you on an internet messge board. :rolleyes:



same old answer

[silverwheels]

Yeah, why should those of us who criticize the staff have to give our reasons, while those who blindly support them don't? It's always the same: you're not a true OU fan if you criticize the coaches, you don't know what you're talking about, blah blah blah.

[Curly Bill]

Draw me a play Bill. Just the quick trap against the split 6. Just one time.

...and by even mentioning the split 6 you just dated yourself to what the 1970's or something? Football has changed since then pops. :P

[ashley]

...and by even mentioning the split 6 you just dated yourself to what the 1970's or something? Football has changed since then pops. :P

Then try the split stack. I was trying to give you an easy one.

[Curly Bill]

Then try the split stack. I was trying to give you an easy one.

Easier still. Unlike you, I have coached since the 1970's. ;)

[ashley]

Yeah, why should those of us who criticize the staff have to give our reasons, while those who blindly support them don't? It's always the same: you're not a true OU fan if you criticize the coaches, you don't know what you're talking about, blah blah blah.

Reason hell, the OB is hurt. If you knew anything you would know the effect.

[rawlingsHOH]

Curly... I think it's more than loyalty. I've come to the conclusion that Stoops is a believer in the effectiveness of the zone defense. That Tampa 2 defense did fine in the pros for a little while, but the offenses caught up to it pretty fast. So, I can't understand it when I see most of the best defenses using man coverage and many of them moving to a 3-4 scheme.
We actually play very little Tampa-2, or even 2 in general. I look to review the Miami game this week. We are usually in some sort of 3. Though I'd suspect less than usual agaist UM.

[silverwheels]

Reason hell, the OB is hurt. If you knew anything you would know the effect.

The Orange Bowl is hurt? Yeah, they tore it down last year.

[Curly Bill]

The Orange Bowl is hurt? Yeah, they tore it down last year.

Making a road right over those hallowed grounds. Damndest thing.

[SOONER44EVER]

:D
The Orange Bowl is hurt? Yeah, they tore it down last year.

[ashley]

We actually play very little Tampa-2, or even 2 in general. I look to review the Miami game this week. We are usually in some sort of 3. Though I'd suspect less than usual agaist UM.

Yes, without seeing the vidio I think we did because of the type offense.

[OUmillenium]

In another thread, somebody said OU is 16-14 away from Norman since 2004. Great at home but a joke on the road against anyone close to us in talent. Do we really want ot hang our hats on beating Missouri away from Norman? Or 1-3 vs UTerus in the last 4? Or our only bowl win since 2002 coming against Oregon?

A lot of those teams had some powerful offenses. They also gave up way too many points and too many 3rd down conversions.

[ashley]

Easier still. Unlike you, I have coached since the 1970's. ;)

Big time coaches are almost always the least critical because they know and understand. That is universal.

[Curly Bill]

Big time coaches are almost always the least critical because they know and understand. That is universal.

I understand plenty. I understand that doing the same thing year after year and expecting different results is not very intelligent.

[ashley]

I understand plenty. I understand that doing the same thing year after year and expecting different results is not very intelligent.

Do you go to practice? I never saw anyone that really knew the answers that did not go to practice. If you had coached much you would know that.
Little league? Jr. Hi? Mad cause you never made it big? Like to 9th grade.

[StoopTroup]

Do we really want ot hang our hats on beating Missouri away from Norman? Or 1-3 vs UTerus in the last 4? Or our only bowl win since 2002 coming against Oregon?

A lot of those teams had some powerful offenses. They also gave up way too many points and too many 3rd down conversions.

I believe the melt down your seeing is because we expect to win Championships. Bob has a few more of those than any other Coach in the Big XII.

Now...do we want to continue to lose Bowl Games? Not me. I don't think Stoops does either. I'm pretty sure most of his Staff's credentials speak in that tone as well.

Competition is tough. We've lost some games we should have won. It's hard to take. I wish Bob would post 3 NCs in a row so he could retire and bring up someone else for us to take apart every year.

Anyone seeing a Spurrier Scenario? phlorida now has Meyer of course...but Spurrier got **** on until he just said screw it and left. I can smell this one coming....I hope I'm wrong.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I believe the melt down your seeing is because we expect to win Championships. Bob has a few more of those than any other Coach in the Big XII.

Now...do we want to continue to lose Bowl Games? Not me. I don't think Stoops does either. I'm pretty sure most of his Staff's credentials speak in that tone as well.

Competition is tough. We've lost some games we should have won. It's hard to take. I wish Bob would post 3 NCs in a row so he could retire and bring up someone else for us to take apart every year.

Anyone seeing a Spurrier Scenario? phlorida now has Meyer of course...but Spurrier got **** on until he just said screw it and left. I can smell this one coming....I hope I'm wrong.

Hey Stoop, i admire you for sticking up for Stoops and the coaches, but again i ask u why do you think the coaches should get a free pass for how crappy these teams have played the last 5 years away from Norman? I am in no way saying Bob should go, but something needs to change on this staff IMO; just wondering why you think the status quo is okay.

[Curly Bill]

Do you go to practice? I never saw anyone that really knew the answers that did not go to practice. If you had coached much you would know that.
Little league? Jr. Hi? Mad cause you never made it big? Like to 9th grade.


LOL...try harder Gramps. :D

[prrriiide]

I believe the melt down your seeing is because we expect to win Championships. Bob has a few more of those than any other Coach in the Big XII.

Now...do we want to continue to lose Bowl Games? Not me. I don't think Stoops does either. I'm pretty sure most of his Staff's credentials speak in that tone as well.

Competition is tough. We've lost some games we should have won. It's hard to take. I wish Bob would post 3 NCs in a row so he could retire and bring up someone else for us to take apart every year.

Anyone seeing a Spurrier Scenario? phlorida now has Meyer of course...but Spurrier got **** on until he just said screw it and left. I can smell this one coming....I hope I'm wrong.

Fact: since BV took over as DC, OU has had the following big game/road game mishaps that are squarely on the defensive coordinators shoulders:

2003 BigXII CCG. K-State ran it all over OU that night for 292 yards. 519 yards total offense. No adjustments from Venables.
2004 BCS NC. USC. 55 points. 525 yards of total offense. 'Nuff said.
2005 texass. 444 total yards allowed. I realize that our offense stunk and they went on to win the NC, but 444 yards total offense given up to anyone is just not right.
2006 Fiesta Bowl. We could not stop a 2-point conversion.
2007 Fiesta Bowl. 349 yards rushing for WVU. OU's offensive stats for that game should have been enough to beat anyone.
2008 texass. Had no answer for Shipley and the short passing game.
2009 Miami. Had no answer for the run blocking scheme or the short passing game. Against a better offense, we could easily have been humiliated.

I hope Stoops stays for as long as he wants. But he needs to get rid of a substandard DC. When you look at the trend over the years, BV does well when OU's talent overmatches the competition and compensates for his gameplanning. But against similar or equal competition and/or better coaching, our D gets exposed time and again.

[Indy Sooner]

Mark it: OU will not win another BCS game while Venables is the DC.

Will they get to one?

[prrriiide]

Will they get to one?

Sure. If texass loses.

[Sooner70]

I think I agree with what I think Bob Stoops mighta been thinking halfway thru the 3Q. Blown coverage by Franks and/or Clayton resulted in a gift TD that resulted in 7 points. My math says without that play, OU wins by 6.

Some may say it was Eldridge failing to pick up his block, resulting in Jones getting blind sided, a fumble & UM scoring immediatly. I don't see it that way. The O is jelling & not there yet. They're gonna screw up. The D is supposed to be an experienced unit. Franks/Clayton blew the assignment. They don't get a pass. They're not supposed to make a first grade mistake.

[prrriiide]

where was G mckoy?????

Hard to make plays with 2-3 orange jerseys hanging all over you every play. Why do you think Beal was able to do what he did? They schemed for GK and underestimated Beal.


The primary goal is stop them from scoring points. Stopping them on third down is just something to help out with the primary goal.

Miami had a critical 3rd down on the OU 36 with 2:35 left in the game. I'm pretty sure that we needed a third down stop there. But then the only people that knew that 8-yard out was coming were the ones NOT named Brent Venables.

Of course, it would have helped if we hadn't given up 12 and 21 on consecutive plays right before that. See, 3rd down wasn't really what hurt us the worst last night. It was 1st and 2nd down. Miami had 8 1st downs that were not preceded by a 3rd down in the second half. 4 of them came on the final drive. OU had 5, all on the two second half scoring drives.

[rawlingsHOH]

Hard to make plays with 2-3 orange jerseys hanging all over you every play. Why do you think Beal was able to do what he did? They schemed for GK and underestimated Beal.


I'll find out later this week.

[rawlingsHOH]

Some may say it was Eldridge failing to pick up his block, resulting in Jones getting blind sided, a fumble & UM scoring immediatly. I don't see it that way. The O is jelling & not there yet. They're gonna screw up.
Was that Eldridge or Clapp?

[Petro-Sooner]

Clapp. Went right by him.
:mad:

[LawtonBoy74]

Sadly it was a repeat of the last few big games. Our D is actually really good giving up 14 points, can't fault them for the turnover and extremely short field. I just don't know why when the game is on the line we just can't get the stop or maybe I do but I'll keep the BV bashing to a minimum. Tonight the D had the chance to make a huge play and swing the momentum over to us and Franks drops a pick 6. BYU and tonight when the other team got the ball late in the game with our D on the field. The thought never crossed my mind that we would actually get the stop. The last few years have sapped my faith in the D making the play when its needed.

The dropped pick 6 is the difference between a good defense and a great one...nuff said

[WA. Sooner]

If D can hold to 21 or less I'm fine
If O can't score 22 or more NOT fine

[pappy]

The defense doesn't get stops on 3rd down.
Reynolds is a great player and competitor but too slow to cover people over the middle anymore.
KW is a pansy in games not played in norman.
The injuries are not an excuse to lose. Someone should've stepped up by now.
Stoops can't seem to get the close game monkey off his back.

Here's to winning the Big 12 championship and then requesting to play in the holiday bowl instead of the fiesta so we can actually win a bowl game.

Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!!

[aurorasooner]

The defense doesn't get stops on 3rd down.
Reynolds is a great player and competitor but too slow to cover people over the middle anymore.
6th in rushing D, 35th passing D, 10th in Total D, 4th in Scoring D, 1st in red zone D 16th in 1st down D, but in 3rd down conversion D,we're #54. We've either got the wrong D players on the field on the 3rd downs outside our RZ, or BV's 3rd down D calls are being easily game-plannned against by the OCs. The usual OOC stats are usually skewed, because teams like Texass have such wimp OOC schedules, but our supposed quality D being 54th/120 in 3rd down stops still stinks. http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2009&rpt=IA_team3downdef&site=org&div=IA&dest=O

[CBUS_SOONER]

No way!!! Last week we were the greatest ever according to fools that posted here. Great defense. :rolleyes: Its was tulsa.......

Amen ^^^

[starrca23]

Holy Cow...I can't believe this keeps coming up. Name a defensive coordinator that is better, that is AVAILABLE...We have played some of the greatest teams and games in modern college football history. I hate loosing too, but really?

[Jdog]

forget the scheming or who sucks worst - Wilson or Brent.

It should be about the Sooner defense not being able to stop a good team when it counts. the 07 Texas game is the only time in maybe 5 years that we've been able to stop a good offense when it counted at the end of the game.

[the_ouskull]

Exactly. Enough with the "good between the 20's scheme." Put in the "no-first downs" scheme. I can't believe Venables and Stoops continue to choose an inferior scheme when they could just as easily put in a scheme that would give up no yards at all.

Which they had well in place, with inferior (comparatively) athletes, as recently as 6-7 years ago. UT didn't even recruit Derrick Strait out of their own backyard, and he went on to be an All-American here. If you told him to play off of a receiver, he'd likely have flipped you the bird and caught the oskie. Vunerable is scared to lose games, so he calls them to keep it close. He seems to try to identify the deep threat and take it away first, usually allowing 8-10 per play, run or pass, in the process. Joy.

This would have never happened if MIKE Stoops was still alive... (I'm going to over-use this phrase now, by the way, mainly 'cause I'm pleased with how many people it seemed to p*ss off.)

the_ouskull

[rawlingsHOH]

forget the scheming or who sucks worst - Wilson or Brent.

It should be about the Sooner defense not being able to stop a good team when it counts. the 07 Texas game is the only time in maybe 5 years that we've been able to stop a good offense when it counted at the end of the game.
1) A two-minute offense always has the advantage over the defense (I understand that isn't applicable in the Miami game?

2) We've gotten a lot more big stops than you think... 06 in College Station, and 05 Oregon immediately come to mind.

[w0lfe]

Holy Cow...I can't believe this keeps coming up. Name a defensive coordinator that is better, that is AVAILABLE...We have played some of the greatest teams and games in modern college football history. I hate loosing too, but really?
http://www.coacheshotseat.com/DefensiveCoordinatorsTop100AssistantCoaches.htm

I dunno, maybe you can find one in this list that would come here thats better. I think the list is from last year, but there is a list if you want to find a better one. Im sure there are some from smaller schools that arent on there that should be but eh.

[w0lfe]

1) A two-minute offense always has the advantage over the defense (I understand that isn't applicable in the Miami game?

2) We've gotten a lot more big stops than you think... 06 in College Station, and 05 Oregon immediately come to mind.
Lets compare stops, to non-stops. I can name two this season

[badger]

Lets compare stops, to non-stops.

Better yet, let's compare Stoops to non-Stoops :D

Stoops nat'l titles: 1
non-Stoops nat'l titles: 6

:mad: firrrrrree him... FIRRRRRE HIMMMMM!!!! ;)

[jduggle]

The problem is when the defense gives up a big play it usually costs us in points. This is one of the consistent themes of BV's defensive calls, blown coverage in the secondary that gives up easy touchdowns.

[gr8fulsooner]

Stoops has never fired anybody, and its making him look weak. He needs to take off his friend cap and put on his head coaching cap. Whether it's Venables, Wilson, or someone else, he needs to send a message that he will not stand for mediocrity.

[w0lfe]

Better yet, let's compare Stoops to non-Stoops

Stoops nat'l titles: 1
non-Stoops nat'l titles: 6

firrrrrree him... FIRRRRRE HIMMMMM!!!!
I think you are referring to mike stoops? :)

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Clearly The House of Bob needs some serious house cleaning. I don't know who or what is not doing the job, someone's not. Even with our injuries, we lost to ranked, though not so great teams and we can't seem to win the BIG GAME. I am sorry, Big 12 champs are nice, but a bowl game is a BIG GAME and we tend to lose those.

Time again for Bob to tell some people that he will endorse them highly for x head coaching position that they should apply for...

[soon3rfan]

FIREKEVINWILSON.COM? I have been looking everywhere for this site and I can't seem to find it? :mad:

[badger]

I think you are referring to mike stoops? :)

Why you little... ;)

[ndpruitt03]

The problem isn't Venables, the defense and offense don't compliment each other well. Our defense has played well, but our offense doesn't do things when we need them to do things to win games. Go back to 2000 when we played against Kansas State our offense got us to a big enough leads to win those games in October against Nebraska and Kansas State to win those games. Then we played A&M our offense moved the ball late and got us close. Our defense made plays to win that game not just with the Torrance Marshall pick 6 but we also stopped them from 4 plays at the 10 yardline to win that game. Then we played OSU the last game and our defense made plays to win that game, but if you remember correctly Heupel also had a key 90 something yard drive that made it a 12-7 game which meant they had to go for 6. Our offense hasn't made plays when we've needed them to for years. 2007 is probably the last time it really did against Boise and Nebraska. And then before that It may have been 2005 against Oregon. Even in 2001 through 2003 our offense made key drives to win a lot of those games. Since about 05 our offense does this less and less.

[w0lfe]

The problem isn't Venables, the defense and offense don't compliment each other well. Our defense has played well, but our offense doesn't do things when we need them to do things to win games. Go back to 2000 when we played against Kansas State our offense got us to a big enough leads to win those games in October against Nebraska and Kansas State to win those games. Then we played A&M our offense moved the ball late and got us close. Our defense made plays to win that game not just with the Torrance Marshall pick 6 but we also stopped them from 4 plays at the 10 yardline to win that game. Then we played OSU the last game and our defense made plays to win that game, but if you remember correctly Heupel also had a key 90 something yard drive that made it a 12-7 game which meant they had to go for 6. Our offense hasn't made plays when we've needed them to for years. 2007 is probably the last time it really did against Boise and Nebraska. And then before that It may have been 2005 against Oregon. Even in 2001 through 2003 our offense made key drives to win a lot of those games. Since about 05 our offense does this less and less.
I guess our offense didnt do enough last season against texas?

[the_ouskull]

I didn't want to post this, guys. I really, really didn't. He was one of the first things I noticed when Coach Stoops came here in 1999 and helped re-birth Sooner Football. He was that fiery f*cker that was so intense on the sidelines that he looked like he was ready to head butt a player still wearing his helmet, for even the tiniest of mistakes. He was our "rah-rah" guy, and, teaming with Mike Stoops, formed quite possibly the scariest defensive coaches ever. Either one of them looked like, at any time, they could... and WANTED to... rip off someone's head and sh*t down their neck.

Sigh... memories...

But those memories are gone now. They've been tainted by new memories...

Warning: The following images will induce severe vomiting and random instances of rage... Those of you with small children may leave the room now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx4A7xNEHhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw4_4H83Pok

I could go on, but I think you get the idea... besides, I'm going to be describing them again in pretty vivid detail...

-----

Mike Stoops, the former co-defensive coordinator of the Oklahoma Sooners, left to take the head coaching job at the University of Arizona shortly after the end of the 2003 regular season. Since then, I have identified no fewer than nine games, the losses of which can be hung almost solely around the neck of the defense.

Before he left, there were two, both occuring at the end of the 2002 season. So, in the Stoops era, we've averaged roughly one loss per year solely attributable to the defense... but in the era of the current defensive coordinator, an era spanning six seasons, we've got no fewer than nine. Let that be the first telling statistic. An extra half a loss a year... I'll continue with a bit more concrete evidence now, thank you...

-----

K-State, 2003

In the 2003 Big 12 Championship game, we got our first ever glimpse of what it might be like to watch an offense that's too winded to play because they didn't get to spend enough time on the bench. It happens to defensive units all the time, sure, but never an offense. Well, that evening, Kansas State's 7.1 yards per carry and 12.6 yards per pass helped every Sooner fans worst nightmare come to light. We lost, and we lost a big, big game, right after losing Mike Stoops, and we lost it in a defensive fail. NOT what the new defensive coordinator was looking to see... (Think Synder knew "his boy" a little better than he was given credit for? I mean, the guy only played for him and all...)

By comparison, they only averaged 5.0 yards per rush and 8.6 yards per pass on the season.

USC, 2005

Yeah, I know it happened at the end of the 2004 season, but I'm sticking with the date thing. It's easier to Google.

Anyway, USC, an explosive offensive team, to say the least, absolutely destroyed us. I halfway expected Mack Brown to come out for the press conference instead of our current defensive coordinator, and say, "I'm clueless."

We know that they torched us, but to the tune of 6.9 yards per carry and 9.2 per pass!? Uh. Wow. They could have just run the ball down the field and scored on every possession averaging almost 7 yards per carry, right? What kind of defense is that? It's the second time that Jason White put up a stinker too, but that's oft-ignored. I prefer to bash, if anybody, offensively, whoever decided that feeding A.D. the ball, no matter what, to the tune of one of the greatest backs to ever play at OU averaging 3.3 yards per carry in the biggest game of his life (25 carries) was a good idea. They were completely keying on him and we LET them! (Sorry, that's next week's rant...)

Anyway, their Pac-10 defensive opponents held them to 4.7 yards per rush during their regular season and championship ga.... errr... their regular season. We were 2.2 yards per carry worse than Pac-10 defenses on that fateful night.

Offensively, we didn't play well either, but once again, we experienced the offensive unit that was "too tired to play well enough to win," all thanks to the defense.

UCLA, 2005

This game gets slept on a lot, but I remember everything.

The stats are a little deceptive, as they show that UCLA only averaged 2.8 yards per carry, so I dug a little deeper, remembering the game and all, and realized that, while as a team, they averaged 2.8 per carry, their primary ball carrier, Maurice Jones-Drew (yeah, I know he's good) averaged 4.4, which is just enough, apparently, against the "bend, but don't break," to allow their passing game to go for 11.2 per catch. Sweet.

This is also purposefully the only game that I chose from the 2005 season, as there was a bit of public turmoil in Soonerland, and I don't really see how our offense putting up 10 against TCU, and 12 against Tejas, and 21 against Tech can be considered our defensive unit's fault.

Oregon, 2006

Before you "remind" me, as if I could ever forget, how we lost this game... please allow me to remind you, as you SEEM to have forgotten, what put us in the position to lose the game in the first place...

How's 6.8 yards per carry grab ya? Not doin' it for ya? How's about 12.7 yards per pass? (Was Joey Harrington still there...? I keed, I keed...) Also, something that I've been leaving out so far, but that is pretty important, is completion percentage. Oregon's QB completed 64% of his passes. That's pretty good, right?

Yes, the refs f*cked us, but it was only because they were tired of watching us f*ck ourselves.

Boise State, 2007

YAY! We get to be a part of one of the greatest games in college football, and an individual team's, history. That seems to be happening a lot lately...

Their primary rushing threat, Ian Johnson, averaged 4.4 per carry. Not the monster numbers that we've been seeing so far, but not good either... better than A.D. did in that game... Their QB, on the other hand, the master of the dink and the dunk, averaged 9.0 yards per pass and completed 19 of 29. We played the bend, but don't break D that we're slowly becoming (in)famous for, and it allowed a vastly inferior (talent-wise) team like Boise State to keep it close long enough for their coach to drop these on us... (NSFW!!!)

http://craziestgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/huge-balls.jpg

l to r: Boise State, Oklahoma

In case anybody's keeping score, that was the game where Stoops' "Big Game" moniker and reputation died a painful death.

Once again, our offensive unit could also have played better... but not much... besides, their best performance in a loss is yet to come.

Colorado, 2007

The proverbial "lost chapter," if you will.

It's almost like, someone told our defensive unit that the game was only three quarters long. They allowed 17 4th quarter points to a terrible Colorado team, and allowed a barely-serviceable QB in Cody freakin' Hawkins, to beat us, almost single-handedly. He went 5-8 for two touchdowns in the final 15:00. Awesome.

West Virginia, 2008

This is, by far, the worst game I've ever watched. I turned it off. I gave up. At least I wasn't alone. Our defense gave up in roughly the second quarter. Can you blame them?

Our schemes, poor tackling, and schemes (did I say... nevermind) allowed them to rush for 8.9 yards per carry and pass for 17.6 yards per catch.

I'll give you a second to allow those numbers to sink it.

The "bend, but don't break" broke like a mother f*cker. Taking advantage of our inability/lack of desire to cover the middle of the field, a f*cking FULLBACK averaged 21.3 yards per carry. It's like they used him to lay the hammer every time we thought we might be playing decently again. Well, we didn't. The whole game.

Bradford had a good game. Completed about 60%, threw a couple of touchdowns, only one pick, all against a pretty salty defense. Patrick ran for almost 6 yards per carry. Quentin Chaney had over 100 yards receiving.

We knew, coming in, that West Virginia was going to have to beat us by passing the ball. We knew that. We knew that they were a running team, and that we were good enough to take the run away; smart enough to take away the running options and force White to throw the football, right? Right?

He barely complete 50% of his passes, but we still let them run the ball... a lot... In fact, they ran 58 offensive plays that night, and 39 of them were rushes.

WE STILL LET THEM RUN THE F*CKING FOOTBALL EVEN WHEN WE KNEW THAT WAS ALL THEY HAD!

Sorry, I still get really riled up when I think about the most basic of sporting principles... If you know your opponent doesn't do something very well, then force them to do it, and take away what it is that they do do (heh, totally) well.

Then, the final two games, the 2008 Texas game, and the 2009 Miami game, although in that game, there is a LOT of blame to be laid, but only one of our coordinators was working with duct tape and fairy dust to try to keep enough healthy players on the field.

-----

I am of the opinion that our defensive philosophy needs to change, and it needs to change asafp. If we can do that under the current defensive coordinator, fine, but I have my doubts, or it would have happened already.

2004, Texas.
2007, Texas.

Those are the only two games in which I feel our defense has out-played a team with equal or greater (although few teams qualify for "greater") talent, and that that out-playing has led to a victory.

Two games that the defense has won since 2004?

Really?

-----

Part of being a fan is believing in your team, and part of being a fan is rooting for your team, no matter what! I am a Sooner fan. Please do not allow any emotions that you may have regarding my post to misguide you into thinking otherwise. I was in the stands through Gibbs, through Captain Kangggggg-garoo, and through John Blake before leaving school. When I came back to school, I was in the stands for Stoops. (A few times, anyway...)

I was at the 1996 Nebraska game, and I sat through that whole mother.
I was at the 1997 A&M game, to the point where I couldn't even feel my junk.
I was... never mind.

It's a post like this, this passionate, this researched, that should be able to tell you just what kind of a fan I am. If you're not smart enough to see that, then you're not smart enough to get what I'm putting out here anyway, so it's not you upon whom I am trying to lay this presentation. I don't need to explain the extent of my fandom.

But, as a loyal fan, as a fan who will 0-12 or 12-0, be rooting for the Sooners, I feel that we deserve at least an explanation of some sort for the performances that I've listed here. I feel that we deserve... I don't know... MORE. Better. Whatev'. I just don't want to become complacent with losing in the big games, selling out home games, and being nervous every time we take the field outside of Norman against a halfway-decent opponent with some young, hungry coaches, or some old, crafty veteran coaches. I want more than that BECAUSE I am a fan. At least when our sh*tty teams (which is the first argument, predictably, the haters will toss out there) lost, I knew why. They lost because they had inferior talent, and a head coach who didn't know any better. But, sadly, our head coach DOES know better.

These two, our head coach and our defensive coordinator, have practically grown up together. Our defensive coordinator has gone from a boy, to a man, and a family man, before our head coach's eyes. Those obligations to his personal life may have robbed him of some of his previous fire. Losing his co-coordinator didn't help either. But, whatever the reasons, things HAVE changed...

Perhaps personal relationships are clouding; making more difficult, the decisions that seem to NEED to be made here...

Discuss.

Boomer Sooner, and f*ck Baylor. (We'd better...)

the_ouskull

[jduggle]

Surprise...no arguments here.

Here's my problem with changing DC's though...is Stoops eternally committed to the zone defense as our base scheme? It is my belief that with the advent of the west coast offense and the mobile QB, the zone defense (cover 2 in particular) is no longer effective. It leaves the middle of field wide open and any good QB with a little bit of time will find someone open. I know I'm a broken record here...but unless you get to the QB quickly and cause him to make a mistake, or have a Safety that bring the fear of God to the receivers... it's not going to work.

ok... I'm through... UNCLE!

[the_ouskull]

When you have superior athletes, man-to-man is usually the way to go... in basketball, at least. As for football, I'll allow someone that knows a little more than me to answer it... (Unless you're pining for my answer...)

the_ouskull

[Pigface1]

We haven't had the level of talent on defense we did earlier this decade, imo. Right now you have Gerald McCoy and Beal is playing well, but who else? Q. Carter's doing a good job.

But, no game changing big game guys like Roy Williams, Calmus, Torrance, Tommy Harris, etc. Woolfolk ended up being an incredible shut down corner.

[westbrooke]

The primary goal is stop them from scoring points. Stopping them on third down is just something to help out with the primary goal. If the primary goal is accomplished, why are we complaining? This performance is COMPLETELY on the offense, more specifically the offensive line.

I've seen variations on this theme in several threads. I can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement.

First, though, I agree on the OL point. The defense played well enough to win assuming some competent offensive play. We didn't get it, and that's directly attributable to how easily our line broke under Miami's pressure. We can't block to run, and we can't protect to pass anything more than a screen. Definitely the single biggest reason we lost.

However, that's this game. As a trend, our inability to shut down a drive is disturbing, damaging, and most definitely leads to losses. It's the difference between a defense that wins the game and a defense that plays well enough to win. It's the difference between the old Barry defenses that would choose to kickoff so we could crush and demoralize our opponent instead of the defense we've seen in recent years that "bends but doesn't break," and then sometimes does. It's an attitude that says we're going to confuse and fluster and rattle you until your offense breaks into disarray, an attitude we haven't seen very frequently on this team lately.

More concretely, a defense that bends but doesn't break stays on the field. We lost time of possession 2-to-1 in the first half against BYU and nearly 2-to-1 in the 4th against Miami, and that takes a toll (some of that is obviously due to the offense's inability to stay on the field, but when you give up 8 of 17 3rd down conversions to BYU and 8 of 13 3rd down conversions to Miami, the defense is missing plenty of chances to get off the field). You don't think being exhausted had anything to do with our inability to get a stop, any stop, against BYU late in that game, or late against Miami? Quite frankly, a defense that is just good enough to win isn't good enough for Oklahoma.

[kevpks]

I just couldn't believe we were playing so far off the receivers against Miami. Why were we afraid of Harris and his noodle arm beating us deep?

[Jello Biafra]

well, in this last game, i watched the dline a bunch trying to figure out what was going on and why we couldnt get pressure with the front four. then i figured out, we are doing a fair job of getting pressure. its just the coverage that is getting us smoked.

taylor is doing a good job eating double teams but everyone else is basically being blocked by one guy. even one of them being blocked by a running back.

straight up bull rush is going to get you killed. i understand they were trying to keep jacory in the pocket but guess what/// he never even ACTED like he was going to run away. the one time i RECOGNIZED a stunt, he got sacked by jeremy beal. we did finish the game with 4 sacks and 4 tfl but when we threw a blitz at him, he just simply stepped back further and threw the ball in the direction of the blitz.

i personally don't think the dbacks are trusting the run support of the linebackers. which casues them to peek into the backfield to make sure there aren't dump passes or a scrambling qb. if they peek back, they are already a step behind the receiver.
B
I
T
I
N
G hard on the play actions STILL.....its been 3 or 4 years now and we continue to bite hard on play action.


sad sad day.

[w0lfe]

I cant agree more with the thread

[w0lfe]

Oh yeah, i love the adjustments we made to stop the short passing game. NOT!! Lets just run the same defense the second half

[the_ouskull]

I just couldn't believe we were playing so far off the receivers against Miami. Why were we afraid of Harris and his noodle arm beating us deep?

Because it almost did twice. It's not like those INT's we got were because of good coverage. They were because of poor throws/decisions on Miami's part.

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

I can't agree more with this thread.

I can't agree more with your sig, even if I think Traber is an *sshole for saying it, especially on the air; something I would never do in a million years. Besides, Diana Taurasi is hot!

Man, screw you guys, ball is hot. Marginally attractive athletes become hotter when they excel at their sport; it's a scientific fact. I didn't invent the rules. I love basketball. She's good at it. She's not ugly. It's a win/tie, and frankly, I'll take it! :D

the_ouskull

[ndpruitt03]

I guess our offense didnt do enough last season against texas?

Not when we really needed them to. We didn't score a point the last 11:42 of the game. Texas scored 15.

[Collier11]

Paging Curly Bill, im sure this thread will give him wood

[cheezyq]

Agree. 100%. Good job skull. See my sig, that I added 2 weeks ago in anticipation of another breakdown like this one.

One added point. KW just drew up a sweet draw play for any time we're in a 3rd and 18 situation being down 2 scores in the 4th. Of course, I think he stole it from Tressel's playbook.

I'm a Sooner forever, sat through the same games you did, and endured the same seasons. This current staff (not Stoops himself), unfortunately, feels a lot like it did during the Gibbs years. Considering that OU invented winning, it's sad for me to say that now I've gone from expecting wins against good teams to only hoping for wins against good teams. I'll hope we get it back, but won't expect anything until we get someone to replace Mike Stoops and Kevin Sumlin/Mark Mangino/Mike Leach.

I know Stoops is a loyal guy. I believe that he seems to still have some play-calling guts, but is handicapped with the wrong guys calling the plays. At some point he has to realize that his own legacy is tied to the guys that he keeps on staff.

Technically, this is what I see, consistently: UT sees it every year. Florida saw it last year. BYU saw it in the 4th quarter, and adjusted. Miami saw it after their first 2 drives, and adjusted. Exploit the middle. Good defenses keep you from doing anything. They don't allow you to constantly complete passes over the middle, and then try to make up for it by chasing really fast. Once you exploit the middle, the linebackers and defensive backs panic, and the run and the deep pass open up consistently. Lather, rinse, repeat. It even happens in games we win, so it's unfair just to pick out the losses. Last year Cincinnati, Texas, Kansas, Kansas State, Texas A&M, and OSU all exploited that same weakness. Not all of them won, but they all contributed to a defense that was ridiculed last year.

The scary part? It's getting worse, even when our talent appears to be getting better on that side of the ball.

On offense: ditch the shotgun/spread. We have USC-type talent on on offense. We have all-universe type QBs and RBs. Instead of proving to everyone that we have more talent, we run a gimmick spread/no huddle (NOT hurry-up) that flails in the redzone and is becoming predictable. Additionally, it puts our typically good offensive linemen in persistent pass-protect mode, and leads to tons of penalties. Then we're FORCED to pass when we've committed a holding penalty and are sitting in 2nd and 20 or whatever.

There has to be a change. If our coordinators get over their egos and make changes in the scheme, I'm all for that. If not, they gotta go.

Until that happens, I'm just going to lower my expectations. I had to do that during the Gibbs/Drunk/Blake years, and was pleasantly surprised in 2000. It sucks, but hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised at some point in the near future.

[badger]

Skull man, your post was too long, so I just clicked on the Youtube links... I don't remember those games every occurring. And now, back to oogling Kenney and his awesome wide receiver abilities.

Cameron Kenney...Cameron Kenney...Cameron Kenney...Cameron Kenney... :D

[JohnnyMack]

I think our defense played well enough in every game last year except for Texas and I think our defense has certainly played well enough in every game this year.

I'll say again that against Florida, BYU and Miami that our D did enough to give us a better than average chance at winning.

[TexasLidig8r]

So skull.. is it in-game adjustments or failure to properly scheme a game plan that is Venables bigger deficiency?

With the Texas game last year, Texas had not run a base 4 wide spread with Shipley in the slot until the Ou game. However, especially after Reynolds got hurt, why didn't Venables go into a base nickle defense and play 2 linebackers. He could have rolled up double coverage on Shipley, played man on Cosby and played zone coverage on the opposite side.

Or.. is it blind loyalty to the 4 - 3 defense?

It should be interesting to see how Venables will adjust your defense to handle Texas' offense. It is not surprise what you will see a lot of times during the game... Buckner in the slot running a seam route with Shipley then dragging across the middle. Malcolm Williams will run some fly routes and we will overload one side of the field and will key off what the safety on that side does.

[OUmillenium]

Skull strikes with accurate, informed observation. I concur. CurlyBill?

[JLEW1818]

let hope Kolt has an off day

[SoonerInSpringdale]

Our defense didn't have anything to do with our 2 losses this year.

[Jello Biafra]

So skull.. is it in-game adjustments or failure to properly scheme a game plan that is Venables bigger deficiency?

With the Texas game last year, Texas had not run a base 4 wide spread with Shipley in the slot until the Ou game. However, especially after Reynolds got hurt, why didn't Venables go into a base nickle defense and play 2 linebackers. He could have rolled up double coverage on Shipley, played man on Cosby and played zone coverage on the opposite side.

Or.. is it blind loyalty to the 4 - 3 defense?

It should be interesting to see how Venables will adjust your defense to handle Texas' offense. It is not surprise what you will see a lot of times during the game... Buckner in the slot running a seam route with Shipley then dragging across the middle. Malcolm Williams will run some fly routes and we will overload one side of the field and will key off what the safety on that side does.


not skull but my take is, it's a lack of game time adjustment. you will probably need to adjust to a team an average of 3 times a game. if they are hitting you with the deep ball, you may need to see if you can get more pressure with a plethora of blitzes/coverage changes. once you figure this out and they adjust by dedicating more men to the line to run the ball you will need to adjust by dedicating more to the box.

texas showed us as being extremely vulnerable in the seams around the linebacker box. especially deep in the back of the linebacker box and every team since has been trying to take it to us there and will continue to do so until we can stop it....play action brings the linebackers up, tight end releasing gives the offense a head start and then its simply laying the ball too tall for the linebackers to make a play.

[Sherpa]

Ryan Reynolds was out of position and a step slow all game long. Love the guy's heart, but he needs to be replaced.

[OUmillenium]

Wow, that is a great post ^

e- Talking about Westbrookes post

[Jello Biafra]

Our defense didn't have anything to do with our 2 losses this year.

how do you figure that?

could the offense have done more to win? yeh. absolutley. should miami have scored 21 on us?

no. the tight ends scored on us far too many times.

[batonrougesooner]

I didn't make it through your entire dissertation :D but the thing that comes to mind is that our defense played good enough to win. Two ints (yes one was a gift) and gave up 21 points with one touchdown on a red zone turn over by Jones after the fumble.

With a decent offense we win this game. While it's been pointed out nearly an infinite number of times since 10 pm Saturday night, I'll once again remind my dear fellow fans that we have an offensive line made of paper and now two starting receivers who are really no better than walk ons. Plus two first round draft picks who are watching from the sidelines.

Offense lost this game. Offense lost the BYU game. Offense lost the NC last year.

[Collier11]

how do you figure that?

could the offense have done more to win? yeh. absolutley. should miami have scored 21 on us?

no. the tight ends scored on us far too many times.

Our D put us in position to win every game back to the Natl title game, our Offense is the one who couldnt execute when oppurtunities were given. We should be 4-0 right now and likely should have another Natl title right now if our offense could execute

[the_ouskull]

So skull.. is it in-game adjustments or failure to properly scheme a game plan that is Venables bigger deficiency?

Lid, you Godless c*cks*cker, it's both. There is a blind loyalty to his game plan, even when the ability to make changes on the fly should be there. And, if it's not there (via playing calling, even audibles) then that is ALSO on the coaching staff, isn't it? At what point do we just say "f*ck it," and let the players draw up their own plays in the dirt? I think our success rate would be similar.

With the Texas game last year, Texas had not run a base 4 wide spread with Shipley in the slot until the Ou game. However, especially after Reynolds got hurt, why didn't Venables go into a base nickle defense and play 2 linebackers. He could have rolled up double coverage on Shipley, played man on Cosby and played zone coverage on the opposite side.

Or.. is it blind loyalty to the 4 - 3 defense?

Try blind loyalty to the zone defense, regardless of the personnel. It truly saddens me to see it, but we're losing to inferior teams because we're not allowing our studs to be studs. There's an old basketball joke that goes, "Dean Smith was the only person to ever hold Jordan under 20 ppg." Ha, ha, right? But, right now, our defensive coaching staff is Dean Smith, and our defense is Jordan. I think that the potential to go off is there. Look what we did with a group like this one:

- slow, white Rocky Calmus
- Jimmy Wilkerson
- Antonio "I was a WR" Perkins
- Andre "I used to be a WR,too" Woolfolk
- Teddy Lehman
- Derrick Strait
- Brandon Everage
- Roy Freakin' Williams
- Matt McCoy

...we don't even recruit guys like these anymore. Would we have even been looking at any of these guys had they come out last year?

"Hey, you're really, really good athlete, so let's not confuse you with all these fancy schemes and sh*t. Just go out there, and when they throw it to your guy, don't let him catch it. Ready? Break!" Does it really sound THAT out of the question...? You're telling me that Matt McCoy was a better safety than Quinton Carter is...? Me either, but our defense is making it look that way, no?

It should be interesting to see how Venables will adjust your defense to handle Texas' offense. It is not surprise what you will see a lot of times during the game... Buckner in the slot running a seam route with Shipley then dragging across the middle. Malcolm Williams will run some fly routes and we will overload one side of the field and will key off what the safety on that side does.

If by "interesting" you mean, "make me want to light myself on fire," then yeah, it's going to be hella interesting. I think we can beat Texas for reasons that I will make clear next Monday in my annual "F*ck Tejas" post, but I'm not looking forward to watching the game.


the_ouskull

[SoonerInSpringdale]

how do you figure that?

could the offense have done more to win? yeh. absolutley. should miami have scored 21 on us?

no. the tight ends scored on us far too many times.


Our defense really only gave up 14 points to Miami. Landry gifted the Canes 7 points by fumbling on the 10 yard line. You can't put those 7 on our defense. You can't give teams the ball on the 10.

So our defense has given up 14 points to a high octane offense(BYU) and 14 points to Miami.

I think they are doing their jobs.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Even the media ins't dissing our team like our fans are? :eek:

Amazing

[PLaw]

Our defense didn't have anything to do with our 2 losses this year.

Bingo! If anything, this year can be attributed to excessive injuries at critical skill positions on the offense and an offensive line that isn't haired over yet.

BOOMER

[the_ouskull]

Even the media ins't dissing our team like our fans are? :eek:

Due to our recent history, they've come to expect it. The myopia of fans allows them to overlook a lot of things that outsiders pick up on quickly. I'm myopia-proof.

the_ouskull

[prrriiide]

Not when we really needed them to. We didn't score a point the last 11:42 of the game. Texas scored 15.

You just defeated your own argument...the defense needed to step up, and they didn't. I think Crow is still trying to figure out which way Shipley went. His lack of preparation is squarely on the shoulders of the defensive coaching. Bob gives the coaches, esp. the coordinators a lot of autonomy with personnel. For us not to have a LB ready to play in RR's absence is all on BV. He is the DC and the LB coach.


Not when we really needed them to. We didn't score a point the last 11:42 of the game. Texas scored 15.I'm sure the defensive breakdowns that led to a 37-yard reception to Shiply to the one and a 62-yard run by Ogbonnaya to the two for texass' two TDs in the half were caused directly by the offense. Shipley and Ogbonnaya were on the field every minute as long as our D.

More telling is texass' first scoring drive of the second half. OU held them to 3 & out on their first drive. We went down the field and scored to take the lead. Then texass came right back and went down the field and scored. The key play of that drive was a critical 3rd & 6. Guess what texass did? They threw an underneath timing route good for 10 yards. OU's D couldn't have been gassed at that point. They had been on the field for all of 2 minutes on the first 3 & out, and 2 minutes of the second drive. BV's cushion scheme allowed texass to get the first down and they never looked back.

Those are plays we have to make. On 3rd and 6, our defense needs to put the clamps on and not give up an inch, much less a 1st down. BV's scheme puts our defense at an automatic disadvantage in those situations. It was the same scheme that got us beat two nights ago.

[DakotaSooner]

...and Wilson sucks even worse than BV...

...if that makes you guys feel any better. ;)

Exactly! I could only hope that someone hires Wilson because they think he will be a great head coach.....please somebody.....preferrably a team I don't like.... UT, Miami, USC, OSU, someone like that...

[Jdog]

Did we run out of Pixie dust -

MAYBE THIS LINK SHOULD BE TITLED -

WHAT THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO SOONER MAGIC?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Collier11]

The only thing that will change the perception of OU nationally with media or other fans at this point is if we go out this year and beat Texas like a drum or win our bowl game against a higher ranked team

[DakotaSooner]

FIREKEVINWILSON.COM? I have been looking everywhere for this site and I can't seem to find it? :mad:

I'm game.

[the_ouskull]

You guys with your points again... "Our D's only given up XX points to so-and-so, and YY points to such and such."

Against BYU, a game that I did NOT hang around the neck of the defense, we allowed an almost 70% completion percentage, and 8.9 yards per pass.

Against Miami, a game that I DID, we allowed 4.4 yards per rush, and 7.8 yards per pass, completing them (again) almost 70% of the time. The passing defense is average, but elite defenses do not allow 3 straight runs to average a first down. (i.e. - 3.34 ypc or fewer)

In "the good ol' days" (2000-2002) when our offense wasn't up to snuff, our defense stepped up and won ballgames for us. Now, our offense is a world-beater, until recently (coughWILSONhack) and we're not doing anything worth-while defensively.

We won a National Championship with defense, and now, less than a decade later, we can't play any? Florida State averaged 1.6 yards per carry against us.

An interesting side note... Florida State also averaged 10.6 yards per pass. But, they only completed 48% of their passes. (i.e. - we didn't allow the underneath stuff either, and we forced them to adjust to OUR dominance, not vice versa)

Allowing that dink-and-dunk crap is allowing teams to get into an offensive rhythm, and, when that happens, even marginally good players (see also, Hawkins, Cody; Zabransky, Jared; Harris, Jacory, et al..) start to look really, really good against us. We used to ruin Heisman campaigns. Now we start them.

How is that not the fault of the defense, again? It's not about points, it's about contributing; to a win or to a loss.

the_ouskull

[Collier11]

you can point out all the stats you want D but you cant deny that in both of our losses this season our D has made enough plays to win while our O has not

[Sonner magic923]

i havnt been on here in a few days but i knew this is exactly what i would see. FIRE BV...well why all his defense has done is allow 28 points in 4 games(cant call a tunover on the 14 on the d. ya maybe they should of held for a fg but still)
u can lay this clearly at the feet of fate thats who decided to take JG SB and BB from us not BV... O ya and the constant calling draw on f'n third and long man i know Jones is green and all but man give the kid a chance to make something happen. jmtc

[Jdog]

1) A two-minute offense always has the advantage over the defense (I understand that isn't applicable in the Miami game?

2) We've gotten a lot more big stops than you think... 06 in College Station, and 05 Oregon immediately come to mind.

Sorry should have qualified better - Meant big games. Your right - OU's 4 lose team beat a weak Oregon team who had a very weak and unproven QB.
and yes the A&M game meant something for us to win the big 12 south -but I think making the 4th and one deep in Aggie territory was bigger than the defense stop.

[goingoneight]

Once again, two things are BV's fault. Losing our best offensive weapon with notta behind him and Dom Franks gets beat on a 38-yarder. What do you want BV to do, suit up at FS and clobber the guy running wide open? Mike Stoops never did that to Rahaun Woods.

I just want to know when it is this coaching staff will adjust it's gameplanning as a whole. FG on 4th and 12 is a good call if you are tied or want to take the lead. Not when your D is exhausted and there's *just enough time* for your opposition to do exactly what even Boo Blake could do... play to your very basic strengths and win the f'n game. Colorado, Texas, Florida, BYU, Miami... who honestly held onto their seats thinking with five minutes a piece in each game that we had a chance, lead or no lead.

Draw play on 3rd and 18? Really? Putting Chris Brown in ahead of DeMarco Murray right after DM gets you back-to-back big plays? Really? That's not adjustment time. That's "sit down Chris Brown, you're a good player and you've bailed us out before... but this is working so cheer your running mate on."

We've once again been exposed for depth issues. At meat Keenan and Travis were somewhat ready for losing RR last year. Who besides Broyles was a man among boys out there for us? It's truly sad how top-heavy we were last year at WR. Sooner fans would wet themselves if they heard we had even a Quentin Chaney back from last year's group.

Maybe this tough schedule and massive chunk of burned redshirts will serve us well next year. This team has been anything but lucky so far this year though...

[w0lfe]

I can't agree more with your sig, even if I think Traber is an *sshole for saying it, especially on the air; something I would never do in a million years. Besides, Diana Taurasi is hot!

Man, screw you guys, ball is hot. Marginally attractive athletes become hotter when they excel at their sport; it's a scientific fact. I didn't invent the rules. I love basketball. She's good at it. She's not ugly. It's a win/tie, and frankly, I'll take it!

the_ouskull


You know skull, u wouldnt believe how much crap i have been giving for saying that same statement you did. I have thought she was hot since she was at Uconn haha. People eat me alive when i say that.

[Collier11]

one thing I was curious about is when time was running out and James broke another long run, why not let him score...we werent going to stop them at that point anyway. That would have atleast been curious

[Jello Biafra]

Our defense really only gave up 14 points to Miami. Landry gifted the Canes 7 points by fumbling on the 10 yard line. You can't put those 7 on our defense. You can't give teams the ball on the 10.

So our defense has given up 14 points to a high octane offense(BYU) and 14 points to Miami.

I think they are doing their jobs.

really? i think they are too but, really? what would you call letting both mediocre Tight ends free reign over the middle of the field and scoring? i call it bs....we should have put that offense down with little to no effort.... with the exception of us allowing damn near every pass that was thrown between the tackles and 5-10 yards off the LOS, we DID shut them down. they were ONLY pounding us with the runs because we couldnt stop the passes. and we made RICK james look like his uncle. because we couldn't score. that weak asss back had a 10 ypc average and a majority of those were after the half.

matter of fact, outside of the 6 play, 91 yard drive of the feild, miami managed 20 plays for a total of 88 yards in the first half. the two TEs had 6 catches for 99 yards with 2 tds.

id say we have an issue in the middle of the defense right now.

[DakotaSooner]

I've seen variations on this theme in several threads. I can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement.

First, though, I agree on the OL point. The defense played well enough to win assuming some competent offensive play. We didn't get it, and that's directly attributable to how easily our line broke under Miami's pressure. We can't block to run, and we can't protect to pass anything more than a screen. Definitely the single biggest reason we lost.

However, that's this game. As a trend, our inability to shut down a drive is disturbing, damaging, and most definitely leads to losses. It's the difference between a defense that wins the game and a defense that plays well enough to win. It's the difference between the old Barry defenses that would choose to kickoff so we could crush and demoralize our opponent instead of the defense we've seen in recent years that "bends but doesn't break," and then sometimes does. It's an attitude that says we're going to confuse and fluster and rattle you until your offense breaks into disarray, an attitude we haven't seen very frequently on this team lately.

More concretely, a defense that bends but doesn't break stays on the field. We lost time of possession 2-to-1 in the first half against BYU and nearly 2-to-1 in the 4th against Miami, and that takes a toll (some of that is obviously due to the offense's inability to stay on the field, but when you give up 8 of 17 3rd down conversions to BYU and 8 of 13 3rd down conversions to Miami, the defense is missing plenty of chances to get off the field). You don't think being exhausted had anything to do with our inability to get a stop, any stop, against BYU late in that game, or late against Miami? Quite frankly, a defense that is just good enough to win isn't good enough for Oklahoma.


Exactly. Average defenses "bend but don't break". Great defenses go out there and make plays. Our defense is somewhere in the middle but don't use the term great.

[stoopified]

All the complaining,whining, or EXPERT nalysis in the world, done on this board or any other is going to have any effect on Bob or his staff.The SOONER(pun intended )everyone gets through their grieving process the better off we will all be.It appears everyone is past the denial stage,many are apparently mired in the anger stage,I personally am hung up between bargaining and depression.Is anyone out there ready for acceptnce stage?

I'm trying but it will take my bargaining stage working out(Sam returning) before I can really even think about being truly accepting. :)

[MyT Oklahoma]

This is a great well thought out post Skull and that is why I come here to read what others are thinking.. especially those who know more about the game than I do. I admit that I am not a student of the game but after 38 years I do know when what I'm watching stinks.

P.S.. F**k Baylor!

[Jello Biafra]

well, agreeing with skull (mostly) this defense is suffering from a few things i think. i dont know what it is. i can't quite put my finger on it but play action has been stealing our lunch money for years now. see the wide open WR walking into the end zone? yeh that was a busted coverage on what surely seemed like a play action pass. the fact that the dbacks arent trusting the lbs and the lbs dont trust the DBs is what gets these guys loose and playing out of control. once they hit that stage, all bets are off on stopping the run. the dline can only do so much to dominate a game. even if you stop a backs penetration, you still need lbs to step up and fill the gaps. if they don't react quick enough, you get what we saw saturday night...

this defense has been built AROUND the linebackers for years and the weakness we have seems to be around the linebacker box. if a defense is built around the linebackers and there is a glaring problem at the linebacker position, we will continue to struggle until it is either schemed out of the defensive plan or we get some young blood to stop the bleeding.

take it for what its worth.

[prrriiide]

u can lay this clearly at the feet of fate thats who decided to take JG SB and BB from us not BV... O ya and the constant calling draw on f'n third and long man i know Jones is green and all but man give the kid a chance to make something happen. jmtc

Fate and a defensive scheme that ensures our defense will get buttsecksed for 8-10 yards every time there's a short timing route on 3rd and 5.

How often does Bob say that our offense took what they gave us. There's two sides to that coin, and every offensive coordinator in the country from Pop Warner to Super Bowl knows Oklahoma will always give up the short pass. That's why we are constantly exploited underneath and why teams like texass and Miami that live by the underneath passing game punk our arses on national television. Something has to change, either the scheme or the schemer.

[Sasakwa]

Its seems a little simplistic to blame both losses on the defense. As pointed out already, one of UM's scores was gift wrapped by the fumble. Also, the late game issues stand out when they cost you the game, but you have to realize when the Offense is turning the ball over and going 3-and-out, the defense is going to get worn out and be put in horrible positions.

Overall NCAA FBS defense rankings:

1. Nebraska
2. Florida
3. USC
4. OU

Not bad company (well, actually its almost the worst possible company, but you know what I mean). What do you people calling for BV's head want? Get rid of the guy who has the 4th best defense to bring in who? It won't be long before Neb drops out of that list, leaving just UF and USC ahead of OU.

That list is points per game, in yards per game OU is 10th. And I wonder how much more time the OU defense stays on the field than the USC or Florida D's?

[Collier11]

They will prop up some stats to tell you why BV should be fired but the fact of the matter is his D is allowing 7 ppg thru 4 games and 17.5ppg against two ranked teams, neither at home

[soonervegas]

This Defense put us in a position to win argument is only going to hold up a few more games this year. There is going to be a game where we are up 35-31 with 6:00 minutes to go and Coach V and his defensive schemes will be called upon to keep the other team from scoring....and will fail, again.

[rawlingsHOH]

Or.. is it blind loyalty to the 4 - 3 defense?


Funny, because against Tulsa we played about 70%, 3-4.

[Collier11]

That is true but to me that is a diff scenario, we should be able to score 15 and 22 pts respectively, especially against the teams we lost to so far

[rawlingsHOH]

The problem is when the defense gives up a big play it usually costs us in points. This is one of the consistent themes of BV's defensive calls, blown coverage in the secondary that gives up easy touchdowns.
If you watch much football, you'd be able to recognize that OU doesn't have any more busts than the rest of the country.

That's how TDs happen. Blown assignments, missed tackles, etc.

[rawlingsHOH]

Sorry should have qualified better - Meant big games. Your right - OU's 4 lose team beat a weak Oregon team who had a very weak and unproven QB.
and yes the A&M game meant something for us to win the big 12 south -but I think making the 4th and one deep in Aggie territory was bigger than the defense stop.
So playing Top 5 Oregon wasn't a big game, because Dixon was unproven?

Winning a road game, which lead to a Big 12 title, down in College Station, against (8-1) Texas A&M, wasn't a big game?

So predictable!!!!

LOL

[Ground_Attack]

We haven't had the level of talent on defense we did earlier this decade, imo. Right now you have Gerald McCoy and Beal is playing well, but who else? Q. Carter's doing a good job.

But, no game changing big game guys like Roy Williams, Calmus, Torrance, Tommy Harris, etc. Woolfolk ended up being an incredible shut down corner.

Now I realize that the colege game doesn't translate to the NFL 1:1 but lets thing about this. On that list above, how many of those players have been "game changing big game guys" after college? I'll say that Harris fits that title, but nobody else. Calmus, Torrance, Woolfolk all did little/nothing in the NFL for various reasons. Roy is over-rated at the NFL level based on his college hype.

How much of their game changing, big game ability came from coaching and good scheming at OU. That is my stance. I think Mike Stoops put them in a position to be their best and allow them to become the college stars they were. Not that they were superior talents (aside from Harris).

edited to clear confusion!

[Jello Biafra]

Roy is over-rated at the NFL level based on his college hype.




are you high?

[SoonerNate]

Why didn't we ever throw the ball? I was there. We had single coverage all night up top!! Bob tried to stall out the game and depend on his defense but once again the defense loses it's effectiveness when they are CONSTANTLY on the field.

What happened to big game Bob? He has become more conservative than Ann Coulter!

BTW, the U fans were the least classy fans I ever seen us play. I am tempted to move out of this cesspol now. I'm devastated.

[cheezyq]

you can point out all the stats you want D but you cant deny that in both of our losses this season our D has made enough plays to win while our O has not

And what was our D doing when it had to make a stop and get our offense on the field with 4 minutes left? It was allowing big plays, running and passing.

[Collier11]

That is a valid argument but my point is that our D isnt going to make every single stop, no D will. That posession is magnified cus of when it took place but the fact is our D gave up 21 the entire game to Miami(14 were their fault) and 14 to BYU, there is no reason we couldnt score 22 and 15

[Pigface1]

Now I realize that the colege game doesn't translate to the NFL 1:1 but lets thing about this. On that list above, how many of those players have been "game changing big game guys"? I'll say that Harris fits that title, but nobody else. Calmus, Torrance, Woolfolk all did little/nothing in the NFL for various reasons. Roy is over-rated at the NFL level based on his college hype.

How much of their game changing, big game ability came from coaching and good scheming at OU. That is my stance. I think Mike Stoops put them in a position to be their best and allow them to become the college stars they were. Not that they were superior talents (aside from Harris).

I don't think it's really fair to talk about what they did or didn't do in the NFL. Heupel and White didn't go to the NFL.

Woolfolk ended up being a hell of a shut down CB, and iirc he was first moved to that spot to lock up Roy Williams of Texas. RW never scored a TD on OU.

How can you not say Calmus, Torrance, and TRRW weren't game changers? INTs at crucial times, big time plays in big games. Derek Strait's another.

I don't disagree that Mike Stoops made a difference, though. I just don't see the same level of talent across the board on defense. Or maybe it's just attitude. Travis Lewis could end up being one of the great OU LBs once all is said and done, but he's not there yet, IMO.

[SoonerLB]

FIREKEVINWILSON.COM? I have been looking everywhere for this site and I can't seem to find it? :mad:

It got stuffed on a draw play.

[primetime43]

The fact is when we absolutely need a stop we can't get it. Why? Because we have a bend but don't break defense. Look at the Tulsa game. How many times were they in our territory? We don't get many 3 and outs. We bend bend bend and hope the quarterback makes a mistake or we sack the quarterback. Otherwise they dink and dunk us until we blow an assignment.

[soonervegas]

cesspol

Truer words have never been spoken.

You couldn't pay me to visit that city again. All hype....

[Jello Biafra]

but the fact is our D gave up 21 the entire game to Miami(14 were their fault) and 14 to BYU, there is no reason we couldnt score 22 and 15


and THIS is why i have been questioning the killer instinct in this coaching staffs minds.....


i remember back in the ealry 2000s where we wouldn't leave points on the table at any point. we were going for it and the opponents knew it and couldn't do a f'ing thing about it. the two that stick out most in my mind right now are...missou fake FG and the bama fake punt....any more>?


bottom line, with a little more than 4 minutes to go in the game, 4th and 12, go for it. if you trust the defense, put them in position to step up, make a few stops and maybe a sack or two that would produce a 4th and 15+ situation and give us the ball back with about 2 minutes to go with less than 50 yards to go. best case scenario, we get 13yards to the miami 9 with 4 minutes to go. worst case, they get the ball at the 22 and you make miami play with the lead...(ie play not to lose) they fumble, throw a pick. get stuffed 3 times in a row. we get the ball running down hill.

[ndpruitt03]

You just defeated your own argument...the defense needed to step up, and they didn't. I think Crow is still trying to figure out which way Shipley went. His lack of preparation is squarely on the shoulders of the defensive coaching. Bob gives the coaches, esp. the coordinators a lot of autonomy with personnel. For us not to have a LB ready to play in RR's absence is all on BV. He is the DC and the LB coach.

I'm sure the defensive breakdowns that led to a 37-yard reception to Shiply to the one and a 62-yard run by Ogbonnaya to the two for texass' two TDs in the half were caused directly by the offense. Shipley and Ogbonnaya were on the field every minute as long as our D.

More telling is texass' first scoring drive of the second half. OU held them to 3 & out on their first drive. We went down the field and scored to take the lead. Then texass came right back and went down the field and scored. The key play of that drive was a critical 3rd & 6. Guess what texass did? They threw an underneath timing route good for 10 yards. OU's D couldn't have been gassed at that point. They had been on the field for all of 2 minutes on the first 3 & out, and 2 minutes of the second drive. BV's cushion scheme allowed texass to get the first down and they never looked back.

Those are plays we have to make. On 3rd and 6, our defense needs to put the clamps on and not give up an inch, much less a 1st down. BV's scheme puts our defense at an automatic disadvantage in those situations. It was the same scheme that got us beat two nights ago.

The defense made a stop if I'm not mistaken. The offense had 1 first down after that score. We needed the offense to step up more if anything because we lost our leader in the middle of the game. I don't think even the 2000 D steps up if Rocky gets hurt and is out for the game in the middle of the A&M game.

[Ground_Attack]

I don't think it's really fair to talk about what they did or didn't do in the NFL. Heupel and White didn't go to the NFL.

Woolfolk ended up being a hell of a shut down CB, and iirc he was first moved to that spot to lock up Roy Williams of Texas. RW never scored a TD on OU.

How can you not say Calmus, Torrance, and TRRW weren't game changers? INTs at crucial times, big time plays in big games. Derek Strait's another.

I don't disagree that Mike Stoops made a difference, though. I just don't see the same level of talent across the board on defense. Or maybe it's just attitude. Travis Lewis could end up being one of the great OU LBs once all is said and done, but he's not there yet, IMO.

I failed to include a very importat qualifier on my post. What I meant was that, other than Harris, none of those guys were game changers at the NFL level. All were superb at the college level and were definitely game changers. I hope that clears up some confusion and removes me from your "dumbass" lists! lol

[Pigface1]

lol No, I understand what you're saying. Really, though, I think some of it was b/c those guys were scared to mess up. They knew Mike Stoops would be waiting for them after the game if they did. lol

[StoopTroup]

You want to what?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/newsok-photos/511580/medium.jpg

[StoopTroup]

I oughta......

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/stooptroup/Venables.jpg

[cheezyq]

That is a valid argument but my point is that our D isnt going to make every single stop, no D will. That posession is magnified cus of when it took place but the fact is our D gave up 21 the entire game to Miami(14 were their fault) and 14 to BYU, there is no reason we couldnt score 22 and 15

I think we all agree that this loss was a team effort. I especially loved KW's playcalling when we got down by 2 scores. Nothing scares a fast defense more than a draw on 3rd and 18 in your own territory. <please note the sarcasm> So there's plenty to criticize about the offense.

But the fact is that we have a defense that is capable of much more than what we're getting out of it. It has been that way for YEARS. The problem isn't that we don't have the right players to make the plays, it's that they're out of position frequently. This is never more evident than when the game is close, and we just can't come up with a stop. The players are fast enough and strong enough to limit the damage to 10- to 15-yard plays most of the time, instead of 60-yard touchdowns. But if the down and distance is 3rd and 9, and you give up 12, it's still bad defense.

We run a zone that lets other teams complete passes in front of us, and then we run to the ball to make the stop. This works great against Idaho State. But against teams with athletes that can run routes in the middle, we struggle heavily. The additional problem is that the difference between a team like OU/Texas/Florida and a team like Miami/BYU/KU or even marginal teams, is not in the skill players. Almost all FBS teams recruit decent skill players. The elite teams have better players in the trenches and on defense.

That is why we struggle against mediocre teams, and crumble against good teams...because we allow their skill players to get open over the middle, even if we're putting pressure on their QB. With a Venables scheme, half the time it doesn't even matter if we blitz or get pressure with the front four...all a QB has to do is find an open receiver 5-10 yards downfield, and it's an automatic first down. Miss a tackle or two, and it's a 40-yard play. Complicating matters, we RARELY run stunts or zone blitzes. We'll throw a few linebacker and corner blitzes in, but those are easily stopped schematically. This gives the QB extra time, and those completions over the middle now get longer, into the 15- to 25-yard range.

This is a consistent problem with the defense. The offensive issues are a little more complicated, but it also comes down to playcalling. I also think we have enough talent to run a pro-style offense, not a gimmick spread out of the shotgun. This offense is predictable and easy for good teams to stop. We are at our best when we are switching up between lining up under center and the occasional shotgun. But too often we sit back in shotgun formation and telegraph our plays. Even worse, when you sit back in a shotgun, you put more pressure on the offensive line. The offensive line turns into a defense, essentially, in protecting the QB, and takes away aggressiveness. Do it too often, and we will pile up penalties as we flail at defenders passing by.

Once in a while, KW will get on a roll and mix it up well. But in big games he will frequently get stymied if he's taken out of rhythm, and it takes a long time for him to adjust and get back into rhythm.

[Jdog]

So playing Top 5 Oregon wasn't a big game, because Dixon was unproven?

Winning a road game, which lead to a Big 12 title, down in College Station, against (8-1) Texas A&M, wasn't a big game?

So predictable!!!!

LOL

Brady Lief threw the INT that stopped their drive not Dixon- Lief was the QB in Q4

[rawlingsHOH]

Brady Lief threw the INT that stopped their drive not Dixon- Lief was the QB in Q4
I remember! And Leaf was also the QB that got them back in the game.

Regardless... So OU beating another team's back-up QB keeps it from qualifying as a big win?

You ain't going to shake the double-standard.

Just sayin'

[Jdog]

So playing Top 5 Oregon wasn't a big game, because Dixon was unproven?

Winning a road game, which lead to a Big 12 title, down in College Station, against (8-1) Texas A&M, wasn't a big game?

So predictable!!!!

LOL

Aggies were 9 and 4 at the end of the year - they were not a great team.

[Curly Bill]

BV doesn't have the mental acumen to develop a gameplan beyond the scheme he already knows -- hell, it probably took him years just to learn that. To expect he might be capable of making in game adjustments to take away something the offense is having success with is beyond anything he's remotely capable of.

Basically he's a musclehead.

[tulsaoilerfan]

you can point out all the stats you want D but you cant deny that in both of our losses this season our D has made enough plays to win while our O has not

The D allowed BYU to drive down the field in the 4th quarter when OU had the lead; how is that making enough plays to win?

[CaliBornSoonerBred]

I think part of the reason the D has had such great success as far as ypg and ppg has been the players on the field. We all know Venables' cover 2, soft zone, predictable blitz scheme and a good portion of us do not like it. I'm not calling for his his job nor am I saying I agree with the job he has done but at some point we have to just say he has superb athletes on that side of the ball and they have made him look good in spots. We have likely 6-8 guys on D that will play at the next level and they can make any coach look good because they are, that good.

The only game the last two years I have seen a great scheme implemented from Venables was the Tech game last year. Those guys were prepared and held them in check completely with being in the right place, right time due to design, not just athleticism. I do not think he can call a good game with play timing and adjustments at all but he obviously has talent to coach on that side of the ball and we need some good coaching to go along with it.

It kills me to see all this talent on the field and what appears to be play calling and lack of adjustments hindering what they are capable of as a unit.

[CaliBornSoonerBred]

The D allowed BYU to drive down the field in the 4th quarter when OU had the lead; how is that making enough plays to win?

Not a single team in the country should be disappointed with giving up 14 points and 21 points in a neutral site and away game. We have issues on the offensive side of that ball when that happens. We made plenty of plays on D both nights but got out schemed in crucial situations. Should we have been in that position to begin with.....NO. We should have scored 17 and 21 points in the first halves of both of those games.

[prrriiide]

The defense made a stop if I'm not mistaken. The offense had 1 first down after that score. We needed the offense to step up more if anything because we lost our leader in the middle of the game. I don't think even the 2000 D steps up if Rocky gets hurt and is out for the game in the middle of the A&M game.

Yeah. They had a stop. After 3 consecutive clock-burning runs up the middle by Ogbonnaya with 45 seconds remaining in the game and down by 10 points. You do realize that texass only had 3 more yards of offense than OU don't you? The difference is that down the stretch, when texass needed a stop, Muschamp's D performed, and when OU needed a stop Venables' D didn't. And it was all about SCHEME.

[East Coast Bias]

Our defense had a chance to pull some Sooner Magic and win this game. When Franks batted the ball and had it on his fingertips with the score 21 to 17. If he runs that in the defense carries the day. If could be said we rely too much on those type plays rather than playing sound defense? As for the KW run calls I can see some of his thought process.After the 50-yard Brown run he is teased into thinking we can break off a big run any minute. However, after running into a dry hole a hundred times, adjust and move on?

[GKeeper316]

The D allowed BYU to drive down the field in the 4th quarter when OU had the lead; how is that making enough plays to win?

they held a top 25 team to 2 tds. its not the d thats losing games. its a lack of offensive production.

yes we could have come up with a stop against miami on 3rd and 6, but we also could have scored more points. hell if franks holds on to that dropped interception, thats 6 points right there.

[OUAlumni1990]

I agree with those who say it's not the D's fault. This D is actually improved alot over previous years (going back to 2004). The offense however...

[stoops the eternal pimp]

like i posted in the thread I started, the concern I have is the inability to stop on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter...yahoo for high rankings, but if your not good in the 4th quarter in a close game, you lose, no matter what you did in the first 3...

Im not calling for BV's job, I dont trust him in a close game though

[Johnny Utah]

The only game the last two years I have seen a great scheme implemented from Venables was the Tech game last year. Those guys were prepared and held them in check completely with being in the right place, right time due to design, not just athleticism.

Unfortunately TTU was also exposed in its bowl game against a pretty good Ole Miss defense. If I recall TTU went up 14-0 then Ole Miss adjusted and pretty much dominated the rest of the game.

[TXBOOMER]

We haven't had the level of talent on defense we did earlier this decade, imo. Right now you have Gerald McCoy and Beal is playing well, but who else? Q. Carter's doing a good job.

But, no game changing big game guys like Roy Williams, Calmus, Torrance, Tommy Harris, etc. Woolfolk ended up being an incredible shut down corner.

Agreed. We have not had the athletes across the board like we had back in the day. Calmus, Marshall and Williams GDMF rocked!

[ashley]

I sent Bill a e-mail today and a reply came back from Skip.

[recruiter]

The OP is one of the truly great OU football posts on the Internet. Ever.

Venables gets an undeserved pass from people who only look at the scoreboard. In fact, check 3rd down conversions. We're among the middle of the pack in the country, and the reason is his steadfast refusal to match up with inside receivers on passing downs.

Every other program has a nickel and dime package; we cover with Ryan Reynolds, who has no lateral mobility, Keenan Clayton, who can't cover; and the underachieving Travis Lewis in the passing game.

There's absolutely no secret how to defeat this defense - work the middle with drag and crossing routes. If this doesn't change - and it won't, because Venables and Stoops don't change - Dan Buckner and Jordan Shipley will have career days in the Cotton Bowl and the Sooners won't just be defeated. We will be routed.

Inflexible football that doesn't adjust to anything - the hallmark of the Brent Venables era at Oklahoma.

I join the OP's call: Time for Venables to move on and new ideas to take over the defensive headsets.

[ndpruitt03]

Yeah. They had a stop. After 3 consecutive clock-burning runs up the middle by Ogbonnaya with 45 seconds remaining in the game and down by 10 points. You do realize that texass only had 3 more yards of offense than OU don't you? The difference is that down the stretch, when texass needed a stop, Muschamp's D performed, and when OU needed a stop Venables' D didn't. And it was all about SCHEME.

And OU's offense did nothing. The problem is that as a team we aren't a 4th quarter team. We play bad on both sides of the ball when it really counts.

[tommieharris91]

http://www.coacheshotseat.com/DefensiveCoordinatorsTop100AssistantCoaches.htm

I dunno, maybe you can find one in this list that would come here thats better. I think the list is from last year, but there is a list if you want to find a better one. Im sure there are some from smaller schools that arent on there that should be but eh.

John Blake would probably not mind a promotion...

[cheezyq]

Basically he's a musclehead.

LOL. That's exactly what I think when I see him on the sidelines. Good position coach...and we'll leave it at that.

[Half a Hundred]

So, who's the young blood we need to shore things up on D? Who's got the kind of flexible mentality and killer instinct that can get Bob back to where he's enjoying things again? Difficulty: no Mike.

[tulsaoilerfan]

The OP is one of the truly great OU football posts on the Internet. Ever.

Venables gets an undeserved pass from people who only look at the scoreboard. In fact, check 3rd down conversions. We're among the middle of the pack in the country, and the reason is his steadfast refusal to match up with inside receivers on passing downs.

Every other program has a nickel and dime package; we cover with Ryan Reynolds, who has no lateral mobility, Keenan Clayton, who can't cover; and the underachieving Travis Lewis in the passing game.

There's absolutely no secret how to defeat this defense - work the middle with drag and crossing routes. If this doesn't change - and it won't, because Venables and Stoops don't change - Dan Buckner and Jordan Shipley will have career days in the Cotton Bowl and the Sooners won't just be defeated. We will be routed.

Inflexible football that doesn't adjust to anything - the hallmark of the Brent Venables era at Oklahoma.

I join the OP's call: Time for Venables to move on and new ideas to take over the defensive headsets.

Great post, but i'm sure some of the Venables apologists will find something wrong with this.

[TopDawg]

First, it's a little intellectually dishonest to put that 2003 KSU title game in there since Mike Stoops was the DC of record and had only accepted the Arizona position earlier that week.


The fact is when we absolutely need a stop we can't get it. Why? Because we have a bend but don't break defense. Look at the Tulsa game. How many times were they in our territory? We don't get many 3 and outs. We bend bend bend and hope the quarterback makes a mistake or we sack the quarterback. Otherwise they dink and dunk us until we blow an assignment.

But the reason we absolutely need a stop is because our offense is under-performing.

We didn't NEED many stops against Texas Tech last year, so apparently nobody notices that we held them to 14 points until they scored a meaningless TD with 11 seconds left.

Likewise, we didn't NEED many stops against Missouri last year, so apparently it doesn't matter that we held them to 21 points in 12 possessions.

Then there's 2007, when we're playing #1 ranked Missouri in the title game and go into halftime tied 14-14. Our defense gave up one FG in the second half. That's a few stops that we needed. In the 2nd half we forced two 3-and-outs, a 2-and-interception and only allowed a total of 135 yards.

Yeah, it's frustrating when it's late in the 4th quarter and we need a stop but we can't get it. But it's also frustrating when it's the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarter and we need a score and can't get it.

Venables' defense has had it's share of poor games, no doubt. I'm sure he'd acknowledge as much. But the last three losses have had more to do with our offense's inability to score than our defense's inability to stop the other team.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

one thing I will say for the cause of the D and I said this last year...when this offense doesn't work, it leaves the d in a pinch....this tempo'd offense cannot have 3 and outs...

[wishbonesooner]

We're an unstoppable machine against lame OOC teams, and against Big 12 teams that we can overwhelm with talent. Lately, maybe 4 or 5 seasons, when we play against a team that can match up with us talentwise, we have come up short. I don't know why that is. Teams that man up to us cause us problems. It used to be that teams took on the personality of their head coach. We all know Bob is as tough and competitive as anybody. Why his teams aren't that way is what angers most fans. To most of us fans, it seems like we get beat the same way anytime we lose. Now, if it's not really that way, some of you that are angry at crtiticism tell us where we are wrong. If it's just coincidence that we seem to lose EVERY close game we play, point out to us how we are wrong.

[the_ouskull]

i havnt been on here in a few days but i knew this is exactly what i would see. FIRE BV...well why all his defense has done is allow 28 points in 4 games(cant call a tunover on the 14 on the d. ya maybe they should of held for a fg but still)
u can lay this clearly at the feet of fate thats who decided to take JG SB and BB from us not BV... O ya and the constant calling draw on f'n third and long man i know Jones is green and all but man give the kid a chance to make something happen. jmtc

Are you serious? Like, this was a real post? Did your pet monkey write it?

Have a nearby grown-up translate whatever it is that you scribbled into English and I'll respond again. In the interim, you should have someone read you my original post as it already shot down all of the things that you tried (poorly) to say.

Edit: I realized that I was a bit harsh upon re-re-re-reading (no, I didn't stutter, it was that poorly written) what you wrote, considering that you had a good point about the offense. My post was about the defense, though.

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

Its seems a little simplistic to blame both losses on the defense. As pointed out already, one of UM's scores was gift wrapped by the fumble. Also, the late game issues stand out when they cost you the game, but you have to realize when the Offense is turning the ball over and going 3-and-out, the defense is going to get worn out and be put in horrible positions.

Overall NCAA FBS defense rankings:

1. Nebraska
2. Florida
3. USC
4. OU

Not bad company (well, actually its almost the worst possible company, but you know what I mean). What do you people calling for BV's head want? Get rid of the guy who has the 4th best defense to bring in who? It won't be long before Neb drops out of that list, leaving just UF and USC ahead of OU.

That list is points per game, in yards per game OU is 10th. And I wonder how much more time the OU defense stays on the field than the USC or Florida D's?

Strength of schedule needs to play a role here. BYU and Miami are ranked teams, I guess, but they probably shouldn't be. Not playing against us the way that they did.

Anyway, let's see if OU's still ranked fourth at the end of the season. That's really more what my post is about anyway. It's cool that we're 4th now, when 50% of our games have come against high school teams, but at the end of the season, if we continue to make the same mistakes we've been making for years now, we will not be.

Also, what ranking were you using? Total defense? (ie - yardage) Scoring defense? What?

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

I oughta......

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/stooptroup/Venables.jpg

I wish he would... only that I was a player on his defense who had just missed another tackle in the box or failed to continue to pursue a play after I over-ran it in the first place.

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

First, it's a little intellectually dishonest to put that 2003 KSU title game in there since Mike Stoops was the DC of record and had only accepted the Arizona position earlier that week.

Perhaps... Or perhaps, as I am implying, the defense should have already had some kind of scheme in mind for Kansas State, playing them at least every other year the way that we do. Besides, an embarrassment is an embarrassment.

Yeah, it's frustrating when it's late in the 4th quarter and we need a stop but we can't get it. But it's also frustrating when it's the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarter and we need a score and can't get it.

Agreed, but, at the same time, I mentioned early that this thread was about games that the defense has lost for us, not games in which the defense played well. The defense often plays very, very well against teams with inferior talent and/or coaching. It doesn't do so well against good coaching and/or talent...

Venables' defense has had it's share of poor games, no doubt. I'm sure he'd acknowledge as much. But the last three losses have had more to do with our offense's inability to score than our defense's inability to stop the other team.

Of the last three losses, Miami is the only one that I pinned on the defense. Considering we're down to our backup QB, our 3rd and 4th string receivers, our backup TE, and a line full of guys that ought to be backups, I'm not putting a lot of blame for Miami on the offense. Sorry. It saddens me that so many others are.

the_ouskull

[TopDawg]

I'm not saying I expected the offense to do better or that I'm calling for Wilson's job because they didn't. I fully understand the impact that the injuries had but I also understand that our offensive ineptitude--regardless of the cause--played a bigger role in that loss than our defensive performance.

[prrriiide]

We're an unstoppable machine against lame OOC teams, and against Big 12 teams that we can overwhelm with talent. Lately, maybe 4 or 5 seasons, when we play against a team that can match up with us talentwise, we have come up short. I don't know why that is.

That is a deficiency in the schemes being run by the coordinators. If talent is equal, scheme and execution decides the game. Players don't decide the scheme. Players decide to execute, and for the most part, our players do it well. There are occasional busts, but you see that in the NFL, too. The problem I have with Venables is that his scheme automatically puts our defense at a disadvantage, even if they execute flawlessly. You cannot give a team with speed an 8-10 yard cushion and a zone defense. ESPECIALLY when a known weakness of that defense is leaving the short passing seams open. A servicable QB, a capable TE, and a good OC will make you die the death of a thousand cuts, which is what we saw Saturday night. It's what got us beat in Dallas last year. It figures to be a steady diet in 2 weeks. It's almost as if Venables zone is an all-the-time prevent defense. And the only thing a prevent defense prevents, is it prevents you from winning the game.

Under Mike this team attacked. They did not wait for the play to come to them, they denied the play. Our DL does a pretty good job of this. Our LBs and secondary...not so much. In my mind, the 3rd & 6 that Miami converted when we HAD TO HAVE a stop is unforgivable. And that was part and parcel of BV's scheme. Everyone knew that Miami was going to run that play. Why was there no adjustment? Even if it was just to bring some hats up to the LOS and hammer the receivers on the snap. Knock off the timing on the out route, and OU gets the ball back. It really is that simple.

Our secondary is full of athletes that can PLAY. That's why we recruited them! Why relegate them to a zone all the time? He!!, QC busted on that TD because he stayed in zone when everyone else went man-up. I wonder if that's because we run man so rarely? SURELY our D practices man D. So why don't we do it when we MUST HAVE a stop? Man D might not have stopped that 3rd and 6, but it had 10x the chance of stopping it as what was run.

If our guy gets beat by their guy, that's one thing. It's a lot more palatable to look back and say "Geez, that dude torched so and so. He made a great play when his team needed it," than to look back and say "how come we keep getting beat by teams that we are supposed to beat like a rented mule?" Because with our athletes, we should be on the winning end of that mano-a-mano the vast majority of the time.

One situation is an isolated execution-related incident. The other is a systemic weakness that is being exploited by more and more teams. It won't be long before mid-level teams start carving us up. Oh, wait. Cincy already did that even though we won. BYU did it. Miami did it. Who's next? Baylor? K-State? Because any team that can consistently complete an 8-10 yard pass can beat OU.

[Johnny Utah]

one thing I will say for the cause of the D and I said this last year...when this offense doesn't work, it leaves the d in a pinch....this tempo'd offense cannot have 3 and outs...

Excellent point/post (and I think another poster made the same point yesterday). There's a disconnect between the offensive and defensive schemes which is not apparent against weaker teams but get exposed against better opposition.

[Collier11]

that disconnect is something I havent thought alot about but makes alot of sense

[TopDawg]

The difference is that down the stretch, when texass needed a stop, Muschamp's D performed, and when OU needed a stop Venables' D didn't. And it was all about SCHEME.

This is all about perspective. You could just as easily say "The difference is that down the stretch, when Texas needed to move the chains, they did, and when OU needed to move the chains, they didn't."

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I mentioned it last year during and after the texas game...game is going well, and then the O has consecutive 3 and outs that last no longer than 40 seconds each...all of the sudden the rhythm between the o and d is broken and the rest is history

[SoonerMachine]

Great mixture of humor and observation -- can't wait to hear that second shoe drop!