The motherlode of conspiracy theories

[Chuck Bao]

Can someone explain why there is so much estrogen being released in our rivers and streams? Now, exactly where is that coming from? Like so many more women are on birth control pills or hormonal treatment for menopause and their pee is like flooding the environmental system.

Fraggle needs to get his *** in gear and study the causes.

This may be totally tin foil hat, but what if there was a conspiracy to put estrogen into beer and whiskey to calm the menfolk down? Could they do that? Would they do that? This is an honest question because I'm starting to get a serious rack of manbewbs.

[Fraggle145]

Heh. Believe me the woman pee thing is a big big part of the issue. The left over estrogen doesnt get taken out in the majority (if not all) of the treatments of sewage. Not to mention hormone therapy for menopausal women, or anything that is downstream of a drug factory. It has accumulated over time, for a long time before we knew this could even be an issue. That accumulation resulted before the drug companies knew they should even think about taking it out. Its already being shown to have negative effects on male fish and (i think) amphibians by altering their secondary sexual characters.

It could also depend on what crops are being used to make the beer, food, etc... If they are GMO what has been manipulated? How does it affect their production of phytoesters? You get the idea. Big mess, and people are becoming more aware, but I dont see any resolution in the short term unless sewage treatment standards are altered. This goes for a lot of the other hormones and drugs too.

[Okla-homey]

Perhaps after OK AG Drew Edmondson loses the state's case vs. Big Chicken regarding the phosphorous levels in the Illinois River Basin, the trial of which is now proceeding here in Tulsa, he can take on the birth control manufacturers. With similarly craptastic results.

The case was filed in 2005, thousands of pleadings filed since then, dozens of hearings, brigades of lawyers on both sides, and what they're down to now is simply whether or not Big Chicken will be enjoined from further introduction of chicken poop into the area. No money damages for Oklahoma even if the state wins. nadda.

Honest question for those of you who have long frequented the Illinois River. Was the water in that river really "crystal clear" until about 15 years ago?

[SicEmBaylor]

Honest question for those of you who have long frequented the Illinois River. Was the water in that river really "crystal clear" until about 15 years ago?

Not even remotely.

[Ike]

Can someone explain why there is so much estrogen being released in our rivers and streams? Now, exactly where is that coming from? Like so many more women are on birth control pills or hormonal treatment for menopause and their pee is like flooding the environmental system.

Fraggle needs to get his *** in gear and study the causes.

This may be totally tin foil hat, but what if there was a conspiracy to put estrogen into beer and whiskey to calm the menfolk down? Could they do that? Would they do that? This is an honest question because I'm starting to get a serious rack of manbewbs.

Haven't you been paying attention. It's all Obamas fault. I believe Hannity is all over it even as we speak.

[Fraggle145]

Perhaps after OK AG Drew Edmondson loses the state's case vs. Big Chicken regarding the phosphorous levels in the Illinois River Basin, the trial of which is now proceeding here in Tulsa, he can take on the birth control manufacturers. With similarly craptastic results.

The case was filed in 2005, thousands of pleadings filed since then, dozens of hearings, brigades of lawyers on both sides, and what they're down to now is simply whether or not Big Chicken will be enjoined from further introduction of chicken poop into the area. No money damages for Oklahoma even if the state wins. nadda.

Honest question for those of you who have long frequented the Illinois River. Was the water in that river really "crystal clear" until about 15 years ago?

This isnt the point. I mean whether or not the water in the Illinois is clear. It is more about what lakes and the gulf (i.e., the ever expanding dead zone) experience as a result from nutrient loading and subsequent eutrophication. It's a big river it is always going to have lots of nutrients and thus lots of primary production. However, nutrient loading is the primary cause of harmful algal blooms (including those that cause shellfish poisoning, which kills people). All the nutrients that arent used by the system immediately in its current state can be used by other algal and microbial competitors disrupting the entire ecosystems balance. This allows for aquatic invaders all the way up the chain as the system gets more disturbed.

Additionally these nutrients accumulate in large waterbodies and it is almost impossible to get rid of them without going to extreme and ultraexpensive measures such as Aluminum (which isnt feasible on a large scale) or dredging. As they accumulate they never leave and when they go unused by the plankton cause problems with anoxia as they are broken down by microbes that produce hydrogen sulfide.

So its not "should the Illinois River be clear?" its "how much longer can we let it take on nutrients before we get a host of other problems, both in the river and downstream?" If you want a good example look at Lake Texoma and most of the lakes on large rivers in Texas. All have toxic golden algae in them causing loads damage to the fisheries and recreational industries that are the primary supporters of the neighboring communities.

[Okla-homey]

This isnt the point. I mean whether or not the water in the Illinois is clear. It is more about what lakes and the gulf (i.e., the ever expanding dead zone) experience as a result from nutrient loading and subsequent eutrophication. It's a big river it is always going to have lots of nutrients and thus lots of primary production. However, nutrient loading is the primary cause of harmful algal blooms (including those that cause shellfish poisoning, which kills people). All the nutrients that arent used by the system immediately in its current state can be used by other algal and microbial competitors disrupting the entire ecosystems balance. This allows for aquatic invaders all the way up the chain as the system gets more disturbed.

Additionally these nutrients accumulate in large waterbodies and it is almost impossible to get rid of them without going to extreme and ultraexpensive measures such as Aluminum (which isnt feasible on a large scale) or dredging. As they accumulate they never leave and when they go unused by the plankton cause problems with anoxia as they are broken down by microbes that produce hydrogen sulfide.

So its not "should the Illinois River be clear?" its "how much longer can we let it take on nutrients before we get a host of other problems, both in the river and downstream?" If you want a good example look at Lake Texoma and most of the lakes on large rivers in Texas. All have toxic golden algae in them causing loads damage to the fisheries and recreational industries that are the primary supporters of the neighboring communities.

My point was, obviously inartfully communicated, I wish Arkie Big Chicken wasn't spewing chicken poop all over eastern Oklahoma. I really do. The thing is, this case would have settled for beaucoup bucks if the state had been able keep the money damages in as a possible remedy. Big Chicken wouldn't have risked it, and would have written a big check to Oklahoma.

When Big Chicken got that kicked as even a possibility, this case was shot. And it was the feller who sued, who was planning on this case propelling him to the Governor's Mansion, who boofed it.

If you have some free time, pop on over to the Federal Courthouse in T-town sometime over the next 45 days or so, except on Fridays when they take a break, and watch Big Chicken's flock of legal roosters in action compared to the state's team. knife<gun

[Chuck Bao]

Heh. Believe me the woman pee thing is a big big part of the issue. The left over estrogen doesnt get taken out in the majority (if not all) of the treatments of sewage. Not to mention hormone therapy for menopausal women, or anything that is downstream of a drug factory. It has accumulated over time, for a long time before we knew this could even be an issue. That accumulation resulted before the drug companies knew they should even think about taking it out. Its already being shown to have negative effects on male fish and (i think) amphibians by altering their secondary sexual characters.

It could also depend on what crops are being used to make the beer, food, etc... If they are GMO what has been manipulated? How does it affect their production of phytoesters? You get the idea. Big mess, and people are becoming more aware, but I dont see any resolution in the short term unless sewage treatment standards are altered. This goes for a lot of the other hormones and drugs too.


So what you are saying is that if a guy pees while swimming in Lake Texoma, it's okay. Relief. I've peed so much in that lake, I'm glad that my pee didn't turn the fish and frogs bi-sexual or anything like that. The girls are clearly the danger and there should be signs: NO GIRL PEEING IN LAKE.

[Chuck Bao]

My point was, obviously inartfully communicated, I wish Arkie Big Chicken wasn't spewing chicken poop all over eastern Oklahoma. I really do. The thing is, this case would have settled for beaucoup bucks if the state had been able keep the money damages in as a possible remedy. Big Chicken wouldn't have risked it, and would have written a big check to Oklahoma.

When Big Chicken got that kicked as even a possibility, this case was shot. And it was the feller who sued, who was planning on this case propelling him to the Governor's Mansion, who boofed it.

If you have some free time, pop on over to the Federal Courthouse in T-town sometime over the next 45 days or so, except on Fridays when they take a break, and watch Big Chicken's flock of legal roosters in action compared to the state's team. knife<gun

I'm not a legal eagle, but that would fascinate me.

[proud gonzo]

heh. "manbewbs."

[Frozen Sooner]

My point was, obviously inartfully communicated, I wish Arkie Big Chicken wasn't spewing chicken poop all over eastern Oklahoma. I really do. The thing is, this case would have settled for beaucoup bucks if the state had been able keep the money damages in as a possible remedy. Big Chicken wouldn't have risked it, and would have written a big check to Oklahoma.

When Big Chicken got that kicked as even a possibility, this case was shot. And it was the feller who sued, who was planning on this case propelling him to the Governor's Mansion, who boofed it.

If you have some free time, pop on over to the Federal Courthouse in T-town sometime over the next 45 days or so, except on Fridays when they take a break, and watch Big Chicken's flock of legal roosters in action compared to the state's team. knife<gun

Quite obviously, what we need here is tort reform.

[Fraggle145]

Quite obviously, what we need here is tort reform.

Heh. And Homey sorry if I misinterpreted. If they lose it because of that it really sucks. Just weak sauce. I mean I know I may be an "environmental nut job" but Everyone has known about the harms of nutrient loading for at least 30-40 years now and they still just let it go. Its really frustrating.

I look at the "detergent wars" in Lake Washington as an example of the harm that phosphorus can do and they fixed it by basically removing phosphorus from detergents. So as a side not check your detergent and dishwashing labels they unfortunately are creeping back in.

[Fraggle145]

So what you are saying is that if a guy pees while swimming in Lake Texoma, it's okay. Relief. I've peed so much in that lake, I'm glad that my pee didn't turn the fish and frogs bi-sexual or anything like that. The girls are clearly the danger and there should be signs: NO GIRL PEEING IN LAKE.

I wish it as that easy. Its more like girls on BC should only pee into a deep dark hole that doesnt enter the water table that is tapped for water.

[SCOUT]

Quite obviously, what we need here is tort reform.

Well played, sir. Although, I think many would argue that there is a bit of a difference in medical malpractice suits and corporate suits. Of course, I am assuming that was your jab.

:D

I should add that I still think tort reform is a good idea

[Okla-homey]

Heh. And Homey sorry if I misinterpreted. If they lose it because of that it really sucks. Just weak sauce. I mean I know I may be an "environmental nut job" but Everyone has known about the harms of nutrient loading for at least 30-40 years now and they still just let it go. Its really frustrating.

I look at the "detergent wars" in Lake Washington as an example of the harm that phosphorus can do and they fixed it by basically removing phosphorus from detergents. So as a side not check your detergent and dishwashing labels they unfortunately are creeping back in.

The one thing we will know after the chickenpoop case ends, which will certainly be appealled by the loser, the court having heard all the evidence, will determine "the acceptable level of phosphorous" in the Illinois River Basin.

That decision, particularly after the Tenth Circuit in Denver hears the inevitable appeal and rules about two years after this case ends in December,will be a legal precedent as to phosphorous in US lakes and rivers. Thus, given you are of course correct phosphorous in lakes and rivers is bad, it's too bad Big Chicken (a/k/a a poultry consortium led by Tyson Foods) is going to kick Oklahoma's butt in Tulsa.

[Okla-homey]

Well played, sir. Although, I think many would argue that there is a bit of a difference in medical malpractice suits and corporate suits. Of course, I am assuming that was your jab.

:D

I should add that I still think tort reform is a good idea

Everyone is for tort reform, until they or a loved one gets badly hurt by a careless tortfeasor.

[SicEmBaylor]

I have quite a few exceedingly conservative friends who are vehemently opposed to tort reform. Every single one of them also happens to be a trial lawyer.

They make some pretty compelling arguments though.

[unbiasedtruth]

Honest question for those of you who have long frequented the Illinois River. Was the water in that river really "crystal clear" until about 15 years ago?

it was when I was a boy growing up. my father grew up on a farm just up the road a little in Delaware County. In the 60's we used to float the Illinois, camp, fish, shoot a wild goat or pig and roast it.... good times....

nowdays..... naw drive a little father and float the elk river.....

[Frozen Sooner]

Well played, sir. Although, I think many would argue that there is a bit of a difference in medical malpractice suits and corporate suits. Of course, I am assuming that was your jab.

:D

I should add that I still think tort reform is a good idea

Nah, wasn't really relating back to the medmal conversation. More in the nature of an ongoing semi-conversation Homey and I have been having for a few years.

[Half a Hundred]

Torts class is fun.


Is it just the state suing, or is the City of Tulsa in on this as well?

[pilobolus]

Perhaps after OK AG Drew Edmondson loses the state's case vs. Big Chicken regarding the phosphorous levels in the Illinois River Basin, the trial of which is now proceeding here in Tulsa, he can take on the birth control manufacturers. With similarly craptastic results.

The case was filed in 2005, thousands of pleadings filed since then, dozens of hearings, brigades of lawyers on both sides, and what they're down to now is simply whether or not Big Chicken will be enjoined from further introduction of chicken poop into the area. No money damages for Oklahoma even if the state wins. nadda.

Honest question for those of you who have long frequented the Illinois River. Was the water in that river really "crystal clear" until about 15 years ago?

We have old family home movies of me playing in the Illinois River around the age of 5, which puts the date around 1970. It was crystal clear at that time. Also, the Cherokee Nation is now being dragged into this issue.

[hellogoodbye]

Heh. Believe me the woman pee thing is a big big part of the issue. The left over estrogen doesnt get taken out in the majority (if not all) of the treatments of sewage. Not to mention hormone therapy for menopausal women, or anything that is downstream of a drug factory. It has accumulated over time, for a long time before we knew this could even be an issue. That accumulation resulted before the drug companies knew they should even think about taking it out. Its already being shown to have negative effects on male fish and (i think) amphibians by altering their secondary sexual characters.

It could also depend on what crops are being used to make the beer, food, etc... If they are GMO what has been manipulated? How does it affect their production of phytoesters? You get the idea. Big mess, and people are becoming more aware, but I dont see any resolution in the short term unless sewage treatment standards are altered. This goes for a lot of the other hormones and drugs too.
From what the guys at the water treatment plant tell me, its not just the river water, that stuff is also coming out of the tap, is it not?

[Chuck Bao]

From what the guys at the water treatment plant tell me, its not just the river water, that stuff is also coming out of the tap, is it not?

Dang, if that is true then it is truly scary. So many of the big cities rely on rivers for their primary water source. Does anyone know if the popular and less expensive bottled water screens out estrogen? Otherwise, I'm just drinking beer and whiskey with no ice.

[Okla-homey]

Torts class is fun.


Is it just the state suing, or is the City of Tulsa in on this as well?

Just the state. "State of Oklahoma vs. Tyson Foods, et al. " (that "et al." includes, at present, 11 co-defendents that pretty constitute the entire US poultry industry.

The Cherokee Nation tried to intervene on the side of Oklahoma as an indispensible party to the lawsuit, but the court said no. That's on appeal to the Tenth Circuit in Denver. If the Cherokee are allowed to join the case on the state's side, it won't mean they can get money, because, as stated previously, no money damages involved in this thing.

[Frozen Sooner]

Which is why suing for injunctive relief is kind of dumb. Make the damages appropriate and provide disincentives to do dumb stuff that has externalities.

Pardon me while I go worship my Posner statue..

[olevetonahill]

Ive had this "Chicken Water" theory fer about 15 years.

I believe its the reason all these 12 an 13 year olds have BIG HOOTERs

The Chicken house feed these chicken Hormoan enhanced stuff to make their Breasts Grow Fast

Then the excess gets washed into the Water supply and our littl girls drink this stuff
and Grow big Hooters Faster and younger:D

Never thot about us Fatass Dudes drinkin that stuff :eek:

[Fraggle145]

From what the guys at the water treatment plant tell me, its not just the river water, that stuff is also coming out of the tap, is it not?

Absolutely. We are all drinking it. That's why I was saying the sewage and water treatment doesnt take it out. "They" say its too dilute to harm, but I believe we have all heard of other man-made chemicals that can bioaccumulate and/or hurt by repeated chronic exposure.

[Frozen Sooner]

Absolutely. We are all drinking it. That's why I was saying the sewage and water treatment doesnt take it out. "They" say its too dilute to harm, but I believe we have all heard of other man-made chemicals that can bioaccumulate and/or hurt by repeated chronic exposure.

Whatever. PCBs are almost good for you. It's only like a dropper full in a tanker truck!

[olevetonahill]

So chicken water wins ?

[Okla-homey]

Which is why suing for injunctive relief is kind of dumb. Make the damages appropriate and provide disincentives to do dumb stuff that has externalities.

Pardon me while I go worship my Posner statue..

The state went in guns a blazin' in 2005 asking for damages and injunctive relief. Between 2005 and now, the US poultry industry's lawyers managed to get damages kicked out, leaving only the possibility of injunctive relief.

[StoopTroup]

Can someone explain why there is so much estrogen being released in our rivers and streams? Now, exactly where is that coming from?

Stoolwater started bathing their women folk?

[Fraggle145]

Homey, man if they win it is a sad day for all of us. And like you said not just here.

[Okla-homey]

Homey, man if they win it is a sad day for all of us. And like you said not just here.

I'm betting the chicken folks win.

The thing I neglected to mention is its a bench trial. That means no jury. And so far, the chicken folks have generally prevailed during several years of motion practice.

[Fraggle145]

Hopefully when it gets appealed the folks in Colorado will fix it.

[Okla-homey]

Hopefully when it gets appealed the folks in Colorado will fix it.

...mebbe, but that could be two years from this December's verdict here in Tulsa.

The real scary part is, if Big Chicken wins this, you can bet they'll kick it up a notch in western Arkie, given they needn't worry about any pesky injunctions from OUr side of the border. Lawd knows they got the Arkie courts sewed up. End result? The Illinois River watershed could end up a lot more festered than it already is.

[Okla-homey]

Homey, man if they win it is a sad day for all of us. And like you said not just here.

I'm proud you and I agree on this. Kinda validates the research I've done on the matter. Also, while you are an incorrigible, godless, heathen, athiestic bastage, we sure need committed folks like you keeping an eye on this stuff and sounding the alarms. :D Keep it up. I appreciate it, and so should every Oklahoman who cares about preserving our fragile and priceless environment.