Justice Kennedy @ OU

[Sooner_Havok]

Should I yell "Boomer"

[Soonerus]

I will be at the dinner tomorrow night...

[Frozen Sooner]

Coolio. We're getting Roberts next semester.

[Sooner_Havok]

I will be at the dinner tomorrow night...

See ya there! I'll hold the "Boomer" till then so you can find me! (They will let anyone into these things these days huh? :D )


Coolio. We're getting Roberts next semester.

He'll be here in November.

[Soonerus]

Coolio. We're getting Roberts next semester.

Are you at OU Law now ???

[Frozen Sooner]

Are you at OU Law now ???

Nossir. Alabama.

Roberts next semester, then Thomas, then Alito, then Sotomayor.

Price (11th Circuit) is teaching Federal Jurisdiction as a 2L elective.

[Sooner_Havok]

Nossir. Alabama.

Roberts next semester, then Thomas, then Alito, then Sotomayor.

Price (11th Circuit) is teaching Federal Jurisdiction as a 2L elective.

We only get them Justices 'cause it's our 100 year anniversary. They cleaned EVERYTHING today. Kind of cracks me up.

[Soonerus]

We only get them Justices 'cause it's our 100 year anniversary. They cleaned EVERYTHING today. Kind of cracks me up.

No, the justices come to OU Law all the time, at least once a year...congrats Froz on Alabama, a great law school...

[Sooner_Havok]

No, the justices come to OU Law all the time, at least once a year...congrats Froz on Alabama, a great law school...

That's what I've heard from some of the old tops around here.

Just trying to play the little law school card to Froz since he is at Bama.

[Soonerus]

OU Law is every bit the equal of Alabama Law...

[Okla-homey]

OU Law is every bit the equal of Alabama Law...

heh.

[Sooner_Havok]

OU Law is every bit the equal of Alabama Law...

I'd like to think so, but you know how much stock people put into those rankings these days.

Maybe OU should build a bigger cafeteria to boost our rankings. ;) Most people are going to look at the rankings and see Bama at 30 and OU at 71 and think Bama is WAY better. But if you really look at the scores, there are the big boys at the top and then the scores of everyone else are way lower, but all relatively close to one-another.

Wonder if that says anything about the rankings?

[Soonerus]

heh.

...and Tulsa or whatever...it is all good....

[Sooner_Havok]

...and Tulsa or whatever...it is all good....

Was thinking about Indian Law, but TU was WAY more money than OU...

[Soonerus]

Top 100 equal all good...the rankings shift from year to year...

[Soonerus]

Was thinking about Indian Law, but TU was WAY more money than OU...

So is Harvard...

[Sooner_Havok]

So is Harvard...

Yeah, but I could have gotten into TU. I'd have about the same chance of affording both though.

To the Ramen Noodles!

[Okla-homey]

argiung about who's got the better law skool among schools not in the "Top Ten" is like hookers arguing about who's the most virtuous. Bottomline: go to law skool where you want to practice, because statistically, you'll practice within 200 miles of that school.

[Okla-homey]

Yeah, but I could have gotten into TU. I'd have about the same chance of affording both though.

To the Ramen Noodles!

I'm advised there is no such thing as a "full ride" scholly at OU Law. There sure as heck is at TU. So, if you're smart enough, you can go to TU Law for free. Which is nice. And stuff.

[Soonerus]

argiung about who's got the better law skool among schools not in the "Top Ten" is like hookers arguing about who's the most virtuous. Bottomline: go to law skool where you want to practice, because statistically, you'll practice within 200 miles of that school.

generally true, but not always....

[Sooner_Havok]

I'm advised there is no such thing as a "full ride" scholly at OU Law. There sure as heck is at TU. So, if you're smart enough, you can go to TU Law for free. Which is nice. And stuff.

Yeah, but that first year would cost me the same as two down at OU, and I doubt I could have gotten a scholly first year.

[Okla-homey]

Yeah, but that first year would cost me the same as two down at OU, and I doubt I could have gotten a scholly first year.

should have taken that LSAT again bro. 160 was the ticket.

debt-free JD is the only way to go in this economy. Otherwise, consider nursing or med school.

[Soonerus]

Cost is not the issue, quality is and most law schools have a very high quality and challenging education process...

[Sooner_Havok]

should have taken that LSAT again bro. 160 was the ticket.

To be honest, I had planned on it. I scored a 157, and only applied to OU on a whim. I planned on taking it again, and applying for law school next year. Then I got a letter from OU and figured it was a good sign.

I had wanted to go somewhere out of state, but I plan on working here so, leaving Oklahoma didn't make much sense.

[Boarder]

I would like to go to Duke.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm advised there is no such thing as a "full ride" scholly at OU Law. There sure as heck is at TU. So, if you're smart enough, you can go to TU Law for free. Which is nice. And stuff.

OU didn't offer me a full ride, and my LSAT was significantly higher than 160. So there may be something to that.

'Bama, on the other hand, did.

[Soonerus]

OU has gotten pretty proud of their student base...it is really strong now...

[Sooner_Havok]

Cost is not the issue, quality is and most law schools have a very high quality and challenging education process...

Hey, I haven't been disappointed at OU yet.

And, it has kinda worked out. I have been thinking about getting a Library Science degree to go with my J.D. and OU is the only American Library Association accredited school in the state.

I am talking to folks right now about maybe getting them both at the same time.

[Okla-homey]

Cost is not the issue, quality is and most law schools have a very high quality and challenging education process...

oh stoppit. :P

law profs are generally insufferable boors who enjoy f-ing with kids, and most of said profs have never been in a courtroom in their lives. Much less survived in a law firm where they had to either deliver the goods for paying clients, produce revenue or perish.

They subsist by writing law review articles no one reads, and torturing their pupils, either deliberately or because they have the personality of a dish towel, the couple of hours a week they drag themselves to the classroom.

Let's not kid ourselves. Law skool is a trade school, like welding school, except welders in the bottom half of their class can earn more after graduation.

[Soonerus]

oh stoppit. :P

law profs are generally insufferable boors who enjoy f-ing with kids, and most of said profs have never been in a courtroom in their lives. Much less survived in a law firm where they had to either deliver the goods for paying clients, produce revenue or perish.

They subsist by writing law review articles no one reads, and torturing their pupils, either deliberately or because they have the personality of a dish towel, the couple of hours a week they drag themselves to the classroom.

Let's not kid ourselves. Law skool is a trade school, like welding school, except welders in the bottom half of their class can earn more after graduation.

You sound like somebody who made poor grades...

[Okla-homey]

OU didn't offer me a full ride, and my LSAT was significantly higher than 160. So there may be something to that.

'Bama, on the other hand, did.

I'm telling you, we've got a new associate who graduated no. 7 in her class at OU last spring. No scholly. OTOH, no one at TU in the top 10% is paying a dime of tuition.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'd like to think so, but you know how much stock people put into those rankings these days.

Maybe OU should build a bigger cafeteria to boost our rankings. ;) Most people are going to look at the rankings and see Bama at 30 and OU at 71 and think Bama is WAY better. But if you really look at the scores, there are the big boys at the top and then the scores of everyone else are way lower, but all relatively close to one-another.

Wonder if that says anything about the rankings?

Strangely enough, the cafe thing is EXACTLY something they did here to improve the rankings. The goal is top 20 in the next five years.

[Okla-homey]

You sound like somebody who made poor grades...

not at all. law review. top tenner. I just happen to have been a non-traditional student who wasn't awed by law profs who never really accomplished anything of substance in their whole miserable lives except score a law prof gig.

[Soonerus]

Listen, I am not going to knock Tulsa's law school, I think it is very good...

[Frozen Sooner]

oh stoppit. :P

law profs are generally insufferable boors who enjoy f-ing with kids, and most of said profs have never been in a courtroom in their lives. Much less survived in a law firm where they had to either deliver the goods for paying clients, produce revenue or perish.

They subsist by writing law review articles no one reads, and torturing their pupils, either deliberately or because they have the personality of a dish towel, the couple of hours a week they drag themselves to the classroom.

Let's not kid ourselves. Law skool is a trade school, like welding school, except welders in the bottom half of their class can earn more after graduation.

Huh. Every one of my professors has actual trial experience. One of them was an appellate judge and one of them worked at a top 25 firm in Chicago. The one with the least trial experience clerked for Ginsburg. Another is still in practice as a partner.

Just sayin'-that hasn't been my experience so far.

[OUAlumni1990]

OU has gotten pretty proud of their student base...it is really strong now...

I used to be able to bench 225 :D

[Soonerus]

not at all. law review. top tenner. I just happen to have been a non-traditional student who wasn't awed by law profs who never really accomplished anything of substance in their whole miserable lives except score a law prof gig.

Several professors at OU have practiced and several are currently arguing cases to the US Supreme Court...

[Soonerus]

Here is a quick summary of Oklahoma law schools : OU<TU<OCU...

[olevetonahill]

I used to be able to bench 225 :D

I can still Curl 12 ounces :cool:

[Soonerus]

I can still Curl 12 ounces :cool:

not 16...

[OUAlumni1990]

I can still Curl 12 ounces :cool:

winna!! :cool:

[Okla-homey]

Several professors at OU have practiced and several are currently arguing cases to the US Supreme Court...

whatever. If they were trial studs, they'd be rich. It's inescapable.

[olevetonahill]

not 16...

But I can do it all dayum nite :D

[Soonerus]

whatever. If they were trial studs, they'd be rich. It's inescapable.

Totally agree...but they are good academics...

[OUAlumni1990]

Here is a quick summary of Oklahoma law schools : OU<TU<OCU...

OCU has a better law school than OU? wow

[Soonerus]

OU>TU>OCU

[OUAlumni1990]

OU>TU>OCU

ah! now it makes more sense..

[AlbqSooner]

Had a prof at TU law who summed it up quite well. End of the first semester he was doing a final exam review and everyone was nervous as could be. The questions and comments got crazier and crazier.

At that point he paused and said, "I understand that everyone wants to graduate in the top 10%, but that is not possible. Just stay as calm as you can, answer the questions as best you can and go on. In the final analysis, the A students will become law professors, the B students will become judges, and the C students will become wealthy."

[Okla-homey]

Had a prof at TU law who summed it up quite well. End of the first semester he was doing a final exam review and everyone was nervous as could be. The questions and comments got crazier and crazier.

At that point he paused and said, "I understand that everyone wants to graduate in the top 10%, but that is not possible. Just stay as calm as you can, answer the questions as best you can and go on. In the final analysis, the A students will become law professors, the B students will become judges, and the C students will become wealthy."

True story, featured in a recent ABA mag on "Lions of the Trial Bar." The most successful trial lawyer in Texas history was never formally admitted to any law skool. The guy gaduated from UT undergrad, then just started attending classes at the law skool. He's now personally worth $1.5B.



Joe Jamail didn’t always want to be a lawyer. In fact, he initially enrolled at the University of Texas as a pre-med student. But the first semester in 1942 didn’t go so well. He failed to show up for his final exams and received five F’s. So he forged his father’s name on enlistment documents and joined the Marines.

Jamail returned home after the war and received his liberal arts degree from UT. Then he decided to go to law school, sort of.

“I was so damn naive that I didn’t know that there was a test you had to take before you got into law school, so I just started showing up for classes without even enrolling,” he says.

No one at the UT School of Law noticed Jamail wasn’t officially enrolled either, until the time came three years later for the law dean to sign his diploma.

On a $100 bet from a classmate, he took the bar exam in 1952, a year before he graduated. The passing mark was 75. Jamail scored 76.

“****, I’m overeducated,” he told his friends. “We used the $100 to buy a lot of beer and got drunk by the lake.”

[John Kochtoston]

Roberts will be at OU Law the 17th of November, just FYI. As to relative strength of law schools, it really doesn't matter much after the top 14. One of the smartest guys I know went to OCU Law, and OCU is supposedly No. 3 of three in Okla. And I met some really stupid people in DC that either go or went to Georgetown Law. Law school, just like any other school, is what you make of it and what you do with it.

[Soonerus]

Had a prof at TU law who summed it up quite well. End of the first semester he was doing a final exam review and everyone was nervous as could be. The questions and comments got crazier and crazier.

At that point he paused and said, "I understand that everyone wants to graduate in the top 10%, but that is not possible. Just stay as calm as you can, answer the questions as best you can and go on. In the final analysis, the A students will become law professors, the B students will become judges, and the C students will become wealthy."

That's at least a fifty year old story...

[John Kochtoston]

I always heard it: "The A students will make good profs, the B students will make good judges and the C students will make good money."

Also, for a take on Kennedy's fireside chat in Norman Thursday:
http://oudaily.com/news/2009/oct/02/supreme-court-justice-anthony-kennedy-lamented-lac/

[Okla-homey]

OU>TU>OCU

heh.

TU is such a fine law skool, even its building knows it.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3185/tu104336940211540521712.jpg

[AlbqSooner]

That's at least a fifty year old story...

I am NOT THAT old!
Regardless of how old the story is, I heard it from Professor Hollingsworth in a Criminal Law final review December, 1975.

[John Kochtoston]

I am NOT THAT old!
Regardless of how old the story is, I heard it from Professor Hollingsworth in a Criminal Law final review December, 1975.

As one of the "old guys" at OU law school (student-wise, anyway), I must confess that I wasn't even born in 1975.

How was Clarence Darrow as a classmate, anyway?
:D

[Frozen Sooner]

As one of the "old guys" at OU law school (student-wise, anyway), I must confess that I wasn't even born in 1975.

How was Clarence Darrow as a classmate, anyway?
:D

:mad:

[John Kochtoston]

:mad:

I'm sorry, Froze. Was Clarence a friend of yours?

[47straight]

Anecdotal all you want, but the sledding will be easier for the 80% in the middle the better the school you go to.

[royalfan5]

Meh, dropping out of Law School is where it is at. I shave twice a week, wear jeans and pearl snaps every day to work, and do just as well as the lawyers in the offices above and below me.

[Frozen Sooner]

You know who says there's no difference between Tier One and Tier Three schools?

People who went to Tier Four schools.

;) Just playin' Homey. I'm sure you'd have done great at any school and you had excellent reasons for going to TU, which is a fine school.

[olevetonahill]

And Im still curling the 12 ouncers :D

[Okla-homey]

You know who says there's no difference between Tier One and Tier Three schools?

People who went to Tier Four schools.

;) Just playin' Homey. I'm sure you'd have done great at any school and you had excellent reasons for going to TU, which is a fine school.

ok. I'll let the stats from the most recent (July '09) Okie barzam do the talking:

First TimeTaking
OU: 109
TU: 88

First Time Passing
OU: 104
TU: 83

% First Time Passing
OU: 95% (Tier One lawskool)
TU: 94% (Tier Four lawskool)

http://www.okbar.org/admissions/statsjuly09.htm

Now, wouldn't it be logical to assume if "Tier One" OU Law Skool was appreciably better than little 'ol "Tier Four" TU Law Skool, the barzam passage percentage at OU would be appreciably higher than TU's?

[stoopified]

Had a prof at TU law who summed it up quite well. End of the first semester he was doing a final exam review and everyone was nervous as could be. The questions and comments got crazier and crazier.

At that point he paused and said, "I understand that everyone wants to graduate in the top 10%, but that is not possible. Just stay as calm as you can, answer the questions as best you can and go on. In the final analysis, the A students will become law professors, the B students will become judges, and the C students will become wealthy."I have no idea if this is true BUT it made me laugh.

[Frozen Sooner]

ok. I'll let the stats from the most recent (July '09) Okie barzam do the talking:

First TimeTaking
OU: 109
TU: 88

First Time Passing
OU: 104
TU: 83

% First Time Passing
OU: 95% (Tier One lawskool)
TU: 94% (Tier Four lawskool)

http://www.okbar.org/admissions/statsjuly09.htm

Now, wouldn't it be logical to assume if "Tier One" OU Law Skool was appreciably better than little 'ol "Tier Four" TU Law Skool, the barzam passage percentage at OU would be appreciably higher than TU's?

Graduates employed at graduation:

OU, a Tier One school: 63.9%
Tulsa, a Tier Four school: 50.9%

If there was really no appreciable difference between the two, wouldn't the market value graduates of each school similarly?

Also, looking at the pass statistics from a different perspective:
Proportionally, 20% more Tulsa graduates fail the OK Bar Exam than OU graduates. That's pretty significant.

Like I said, though, I was yanking your chain.

[Okla-homey]

Graduates employed at graduation:

OU, a Tier One school: 63.9%
Tulsa, a Tier Four school: 50.9%

If there was really no appreciable difference between the two, wouldn't the market value graduates of each school similarly?

Also, looking at the pass statistics from a different perspective:
Proportionally, 20% more Tulsa graduates fail the OK Bar Exam than OU graduates. That's pretty significant.

Like I said, though, I was yanking your chain.

Those "employed at graduation" stats are based entirely on voluntary student input. For example, your's truly was "employed at graduation" but declined to return the survey. As did many of my fellow employed alums. We figured it was none of their business. Therefore, I don't put much stock in those.

As to your statement "20% more TU grads fail the barzam than OU grads", that's pretty disengenious. All you're really saying is the OU fail rate was 5% and the TU fail rate was 6%. Still, a statistically insignificant difference.

[Frozen Sooner]

OK, whatever you say. Again, as I've clearly stated twice already I was just giving you a little grief and as I made abundantly clear TU is a fine law school, and they'd likely be Tier One if they put more money into facilities. The success of the law student is going to have much more to do with the individual student than with the school they went to, but you're going to have a really really hard time convincing anyone that the education you get at, say, Cooley is anywhere near the education you get at, say, Georgia.

[Okla-homey]

OK, whatever you say. Again, as I've clearly stated twice already I was just giving you a little grief and as I made abundantly clear TU is a fine law school, and they'd likely be Tier One if they put more money into facilities. The success of the law student is going to have much more to do with the individual student than with the school they went to, but you're going to have a really really hard time convincing anyone that the education you get at, say, Cooley is anywhere near the education you get at, say, Georgia.

I don't know if "Cooley" is ABA-accredited. I will admit that ABA accreditation is an important indicator of a law skool's quality. For example, right there in Alabama, they have the unaccredited "Jones School of Law" in the 'Gump. You can sit for the Alabama barzam if you have a degree from there, but you can't sit for the Oklahoma barzam unless you have a JD from an ABA-accredited law skool. As an aside, that also speaks to Alabama's officially lower expectations regarding legal professionalism within its state bar. That's not to say UA doesn't have a fine law skool. It does. It's just a shame its in Alabama.

[Frozen Sooner]

Cooley is indeed ABA-accredited. They're a non-undergrad affiliated school in Michigan that boasts the largest enrollment of any law school in the country.

I used them as an example because they've been the main water-carrier for the argument that the USN&WR rankings are severely flawed enough that they can't be taken seriously at all, then created their own "objective" rating that ranked them ahead of Boalt and Yale.