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View Full Version : A serious question for you guys on your beliefs...



MR2-Sooner86
9/29/2009, 01:41 PM
Halloween is coming up, my favorite holiday, and I'm seeing on TV all the horror movies and scary programs they're planing to show everybody. As I was watching there seems to be a whole lot of specials for ghost hunting and ghost shows and that stuff. That got me to thinking about my beliefs on the subject and how I feel about it. I then was wondering what other people think. So I decided to come on here and asks.

What are you guy's beliefs on ghost/afterlife/paranormal/etc? Do you believe in ghost? Do you believe it's all a big hoax? Do you believe there's something going on that we can't explain? Can it be explained scientifically? Does it have to do with religion? Is it all just people with active imaginations and it's all just random acts of nature? What do you think on this?

The people that seem to be the most hostile to this idea are religious people. When you die, it's either Heaven or Hell and nothing else. Are you sure? Doesn't it say in Revalation that when the end time comes for those to be judged the land and sea will give up their dead to be judged? If you're dead, wouldn't you either be in Heaven or Hell? Could it be that there are dead still on Earth and will be here until the end time? Just a thought...

The other group of people that seem to be the most hostile to this idea as well are atheist. There is no God, ghost point towards a God, and science cannot prove there are ghost and there's no evidence. There is truth and science cannot disprove of ghost either. Several readings from the instruments used by ghost hunters cannot be recreated by nature and are only done in a lab. Why is that? Also, didn't Einstein himself believe in some type of afterlife because energy cannot be created nor destroyed and we are nothing but a big glob of energy. It has to go somewhere...

Then there are people between the two, science or religion can't explain it but something is going on. Where are you at? At one extreme or the other or in the middle?

So, what do you guys believe? Do you believe? If you don't and find it stupid, why is that? I'd like to hear why you guys believe, or don't believe, the way you do. Has there been something happen to you personally that changed your views?

:pop:

Ike
9/29/2009, 01:47 PM
This is one of those areas where I really don't care. If some one were to tell me they just saw a ghost, I'd probably say "well isn't that special"...and go about my day. If someone were to tell me that they had just not seen a ghost, I'd probably say the same thing.

NormanPride
9/29/2009, 01:50 PM
I've had a very personal experience with this. My great uncle called my father on his cell phone 20+ years after he (my great uncle) had passed away. There was no mistaking who it was.

So yeah, I think no matter what the afterlife looks like, it can affect this life.

Mjcpr
9/29/2009, 02:01 PM
I have trouble believing anything like that without it being proven to me somehow and since I have never seen one or had any ghost experiences, I'm going to go with "not real".


I've had a very personal experience with this. My great uncle called my father on his cell phone 20+ years after he (my great uncle) had passed away. There was no mistaking who it was.

So yeah, I think no matter what the afterlife looks like, it can affect this life.

How did this conversation go? Was it referring to events of 20+ years ago or currently? I'm not asking to make fun or anything, even though it seems highly improbably to me, I'm just curious about the experience.

NormanPride
9/29/2009, 02:08 PM
Well, it was a message left on my dad's cell phone. The call came from my aunt's cell phone, which was (at the time of the call) sitting in her house while she was out of the city. The call was a lot of static and unrecognizable background noise, and then my great uncle calling out for his wife over and over. Not sad, not scared, just calling like it was a recording of daily life years ago. It sounded so much like a recording that we brought it up to my aunt, only to realize that a) she had no such recordings, and b) she was gone at the time.

We asked about every family member that knew the great uncle what they thought, and everyone agreed it was him. I believe my dad would just play the message for them and ask "what do you think?" Not "Doesn't this sound like Uncle?"

It's the first and last time I've ever seen anything paranormal, and the only reason I believe now. I was a skeptic before.

OKLA21FAN
9/29/2009, 02:09 PM
These guys know.
http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2009/08/03/1249341975-ghostbusters.jpg

Mjcpr
9/29/2009, 02:11 PM
Well, it was a message left on my dad's cell phone. The call came from my aunt's cell phone, which was (at the time of the call) sitting in her house while she was out of the city. The call was a lot of static and unrecognizable background noise, and then my great uncle calling out for his wife over and over. Not sad, not scared, just calling like it was a recording of daily life years ago. It sounded so much like a recording that we brought it up to my aunt, only to realize that a) she had no such recordings, and b) she was gone at the time.

We asked about every family member that knew the great uncle what they thought, and everyone agreed it was him. I believe my dad would just play the message for them and ask "what do you think?" Not "Doesn't this sound like Uncle?"

It's the first and last time I've ever seen anything paranormal, and the only reason I believe now. I was a skeptic before.

That's interesting....thanks for sharing.

JohnnyMack
9/29/2009, 02:20 PM
That's interesting....thanks for sharing.

Pssst.....

http://www.mutineermagazine.com/img/blog/jack_daniels.jpg

;)

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 02:23 PM
Im still skeptical but we have had weird things happen at our house.Our TV would turn off and on by itself when the remote was on the table in front of us. This has happened alot and we would joke about it and I said I wonder what our ghosts' name is. My wife and I both said Fred at the same time. Other things have happened as well: the cover to our hallway light fell off in the middle of the night, our shower curtain fell, my wife watched a full role of toilet paper unroll. Just the other week we had a light go out in our bedroom fan. The next day it was working again. My wife was accusing me of changing it and just trying to scare her. I figured it was just loose or something. At the same time, we also had a hallway light that was burned out. I was joking that wouldn't it be weird if I went and flipped the switch and it worked? I flipped it and it didn't turn on but the next day it was working again.

Mjcpr
9/29/2009, 02:26 PM
I think maybe you just have a crappy house.

Turd_Ferguson
9/29/2009, 02:28 PM
Im still skeptical but we have had weird things happen at our house.Our TV would turn off and on by itself when the remote was on the table in front of us. This has happened alot and we would joke about it and I said I wonder what our ghosts' name is. My wife and I both said Fred at the same time. Other things have happened as well: the cover to our hallway light fell off in the middle of the night, our shower curtain fell, my wife watched a full role of toilet paper unroll. Just the other week we had a light go out in our bedroom fan. The next day it was working again. My wife was accusing me of changing it and just trying to scare her. I figured it was just loose or something. At the same time, we also had a hallway light that was burned out. I was joking that wouldn't it be weird if I went and flipped the switch and it worked? I flipped it and it didn't turn on but the next day it was working again.You better get an electrician in there to check that stuff out, that could be very dangerous.

SanJoaquinSooner
9/29/2009, 02:56 PM
I've had a very personal experience with this. My great uncle called my father on his cell phone 20+ years after he (my great uncle) had passed away. There was no mistaking who it was.

So yeah, I think no matter what the afterlife looks like, it can affect this life.

Penn and Teller could explain it.

Chuck Bao
9/29/2009, 03:03 PM
I don't know. Both religious and non-religious people have had to deal with the same grief of an untimely death of a loved one from murder or an accident. That unfinished business has to prey on the mind. My friend was trying to tell me something and I was late for work and didn't pay attention. Later that day, he was murdered, two pistol shots to his head. Whether it is guilt or whatever, I kept seeing him for several months after that. It all died down until I started to move out of the apartment last year and then some really bizzare things started happening again. It could have been my mind playing tricks on me again because I was leaving a place with a lot of shared memories. I have to question my own perceptions and feelings, but I am not in a position to judge other people and their experiences. Who is to say that the ghosts are really our own ghosts and not the soul of the loved departed one? So, I have to say that I don't know.

Turd_Ferguson
9/29/2009, 03:05 PM
Sometimes, late at night while laying on the couch watching tv, I see a green haze float across the living room.:confused:

OUMallen
9/29/2009, 03:07 PM
I wonder why there are no ghost nicknames for teams.
What about:

Appalachian State Apparitions
Directional State Ectoplasms
Univ of Chicago Gobs of Energy

Manhattan.

C&CDean
9/29/2009, 03:10 PM
I'm pretty much the same on the ghost deal as I am on the UFO deal. I won't say they/it/them don't exist, but I'd be a lot more likely to believe if I actually saw/heard one personally. And those TV shows don't do a lot to bolster my confidence. Some toothless goober from SE Alabammy "done seen him a flyin' saurcer right up there..." Meh. When I see a ghost, I'll buy it.

Chuck Bao
9/29/2009, 03:14 PM
Sometimes, late at night while laying on the couch watching tv, I see a green haze float across the living room.:confused:

You, sir, are seeing the ghost of Baylor football. Okay, when I'm really channelling on the TV, that's all I get too!

Sic'em Bears.

CK Sooner
9/29/2009, 03:15 PM
About a year ago I was laying in bed and at about 2:00 AM and my cat jumped up and laid next to me. I looked into it's eyes and saw a figure of a man behind me just standing there.

Scared me ****less.

Mjcpr
9/29/2009, 03:23 PM
About a year ago I was laying in bed and at about 2:00 AM and my cat jumped up and laid next to me. I looked into it's eyes and saw a figure of a man behind me just standing there.

Scared me ****less.

Was he making an O face?

Turd_Ferguson
9/29/2009, 03:23 PM
About a year ago I was laying in bed and at about 2:00 AM and my cat jumped up and laid next to me. I looked into it's eyes and saw a figure of a man behind me just standing there.

Scared me ****less.Then you realized it was JLEW undressing:confused:

Collier11
9/29/2009, 03:23 PM
See the problem is most people say that there is no way it could happen, they are not real, etc... and then when it happens to them or their is proof they try to explain it away. I like the fact that some of you are saying plain and simple, I dont think so.

Personally, I have no reason to think that ghosts, wierd unexplained animals, ufo's, etc... dont exist. I have had several personal experiences with the ghosts that say that they do exist so I lean towards yes

CK Sooner
9/29/2009, 03:24 PM
Then you realized it was JLEW undressing:confused:

That is pretty funny

:D

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 03:26 PM
About a year ago I was laying in bed and at about 2:00 AM and my cat jumped up and laid next to me. I looked into it's eyes and saw a figure of a man behind me just standing there.

Scared me ****less.

My cats will sometimes just stare up in a corner or act like they are watching something fly across the room

Collier11
9/29/2009, 03:27 PM
another thing that isnt exactly a ghost sighting but somewhat related, my Grandfather was a great man, anything I learned about being a good Christian man I learned from him so once he died my Junior yr of HS I was obviously devestated.

Since his passing which is now 12 yrs ago I have had several dreams a year with him, every single one of them he is getting on to me or trying to correct me. So some would say I am just remembering him being my moral center and helping me be a better person, some might think that he is still teaching me from Heaven if that is what you believe.

While it is more likely that it is just me remembering him in my dreams, I am not going to say that he isnt still guiding me thru life

CK Sooner
9/29/2009, 03:27 PM
My cats will sometimes just stare up in a corner or act like they are watching something fly across the room

Yep, mine does that all the time too, but now it freaks me out because I think he see's something I don't.

Maybe its just a cat thing though, I don't know.

Frozen Sooner
9/29/2009, 03:28 PM
Manhattan.

Jaspers, not Caspers.

C&CDean
9/29/2009, 03:29 PM
****, everybody knows cats are satan spawn.

CK Sooner
9/29/2009, 03:30 PM
Gresho

http://askville.amazon.com/cats-ghosts-spirits-dead-people/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=4627727

Collier11
9/29/2009, 03:30 PM
I watched my aunt and uncles dog follow something from the 2nd story of their house, down the stairs, across the living room, and into the basement, growling the entire time.

Ive had probably 5-10 solid encounters in my life that are hard to explain

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 03:38 PM
another thing that isnt exactly a ghost sighting but somewhat related, my Grandfather was a great man, anything I learned about being a good Christian man I learned from him so once he died my Junior yr of HS I was obviously devestated.

Since his passing which is now 12 yrs ago I have had several dreams a year with him, every single one of them he is getting on to me or trying to correct me. So some would say I am just remembering him being my moral center and helping me be a better person, some might think that he is still teaching me from Heaven if that is what you believe.

While it is more likely that it is just me remembering him in my dreams, I am not going to say that he isnt still guiding me thru life

does he get onto you for things you did in real life?

iwannabelikesam
9/29/2009, 03:39 PM
See the problem is most people say that there is no way it could happen, they are not real, etc... and then when it happens to them or their is proof they try to explain it away. I like the fact that some of you are saying plain and simple, I dont think so.

Personally, I have no reason to think that ghosts, wierd unexplained animals, ufo's, etc... dont exist. I have had several personal experiences with the ghosts that say that they do exist so I lean towards yes

The burden of proof falls to the believer to prove, not for the disbeliever to disprove.

Russell's teapot can be applied here in a sense.

soonersweetie
9/29/2009, 03:40 PM
Although I have no scientific basis for it, I believe in them. I'm not exactly sure why I do. There have been a couple of times where I thought I've heard one or strange unexplainable things have happened in the house, but I've never really seen one.

And Dean, cats aren't satan's spawn, lol. They ain't man's best friend necessarily, but they aren't the devil either ;)

Collier11
9/29/2009, 03:42 PM
does he get onto you for things you did in real life?

most of the time it is just him getting on to me but there have been instances where it is directly related to something I have actually done

Collier11
9/29/2009, 03:44 PM
The burden of proof falls to the believer to prove, not for the disbeliever to disprove.

Russell's teapot can be applied here in a sense.

Just like Christianity or any kind of faith, I dont think it really has to be proven to anyone if you choose to believe

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 03:44 PM
Gresho

http://askville.amazon.com/cats-ghosts-spirits-dead-people/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=4627727

cats are weird creatures. I always figure they see a small bug that I can't see. The earth quack thing was weird though.

Frozen Sooner
9/29/2009, 03:48 PM
The burden of proof falls to the believer to prove, not for the disbeliever to disprove.

Russell's teapot can be applied here in a sense.

:nods:

Positive hypotheses require proof.

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 03:49 PM
My wife has a friend and they were staying at her parent's house in Texas. Her mom told my wife that their house is haunted. The "ghost" only does stuff in one room that was a baby's room when they bought the house. Things will get moved around and misplaced. I can't remember all the specifics but weird things. Like a toy stroller being in the hallway when nobody moved it and children books being opened. One of the "encounters" the mother had was when she was in the house by herself and was leaving the room getting ready to leave the house and she heard a little girls voice behind her say something like "Don't forget the keys" or something like that. She turned around and nothing was there. Oh and when they bought the house there was an old photograph that was hanging on the wall of a little girl.

Collier11
9/29/2009, 03:51 PM
Cats are wierd, I love cats and always have. I have had the crazy ones, I had one who lived the party life with me thru college, my current cat absolutely loves me and shows honest to God appreciation every single day since I rescued her from a shelter. Say what you will but cats are good pets, maybe a little selfish but good!

JohnnyMack
9/29/2009, 03:56 PM
When I was a kid my parents and I moved into an older house. The house had been empty for quite a while. We don't find out until afterwards that the previous owners were a young couple that had been fixing up the house and died in a car wreck. My parents, who were always a bit out there, started fixing up the house in a way that was a bit more modern than the town we lived in was used to. Things started happening that I can't specifically blame on "ghosts" but it was almost as if they didn't want my parents messing with their house.

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 03:56 PM
very selfish and stubborn but still good and loyal. We have two cats. One we got when my wife was walking to class on campus and heard it meowing in a sewer drain around the union. She called the fire department and they found it and said she had to keep it. It is a great cap but very skittish. our other cat is weird b/c she really hates some people. Some people she is ok with but others she will hiss and try to attack. My wife seems to think it has to do with breathe.

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 03:57 PM
where can I go to find all the deeds on the land/house that I own?

Frozen Sooner
9/29/2009, 04:00 PM
where can I go to find all the deeds on the land/house that I own?

Should be in the title report. If not, the County Recorder's Office.

stoops the eternal pimp
9/29/2009, 04:02 PM
I don't believe in cats

soonersweetie
9/29/2009, 04:05 PM
LOL, then what do you call them?

C&CDean
9/29/2009, 04:06 PM
Satan. doh.

sitzpinkler
9/29/2009, 04:07 PM
When I was a kid my parents and I moved into an older house. The house had been empty for quite a while. We don't find out until afterwards that the previous owners were a young couple that had been fixing up the house and died in a car wreck. My parents, who were always a bit out there, started fixing up the house in a way that was a bit more modern than the town we lived in was used to. Things started happening that I can't specifically blame on "ghosts" but it was almost as if they didn't want my parents messing with their house.

Is your name Lydia Deetz?

Boomer.....
9/29/2009, 04:11 PM
I believe in ghosts/paranormal activity/afterlife etc. My wife and I have had experiences before.

stoops the eternal pimp
9/29/2009, 04:16 PM
LOL, then what do you call them?

Lucifer's litter

Turd_Ferguson
9/29/2009, 04:17 PM
I believe in ghosts/paranormal activity/afterlife etc. My wife and I have had experiences before.

http://atlanta.metromix.com/content_image/full/1243700/560/370

:confused:

:D

Boomer.....
9/29/2009, 04:28 PM
:hot:

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 04:29 PM
LOL, then what do you call them?

land fish

OUHOMER
9/29/2009, 05:30 PM
I dont know if i believe or not. We lived in a house one time in Yukon that one of the closet doors would not stay shut. It was a spare room i would shut it and notice a day or so later it was open. Didn't really think too much about it. the wife got on me on day for leaving it open. So i checked out the handle it was fine, shut good etc. Got up the next morning and it was open. So the next day, I put something down as a door stop, brick or something. Sure enough it was open again the next day. Never did figure it out.

My cousin moved in with us for a while and it always freaked him out. He wedged a bar from a bar bell against it one night got up the next morning and the bar was laying on the floor and the door was open.

never did figure it out.

Collier11
9/29/2009, 05:35 PM
underwear gnomes?

SCOUT
9/29/2009, 05:53 PM
Is your name Lydia Deetz?

Ha! You beat me to it. I read that thinking, isn't that the plot to Beetlejuice?

As for me, I fall squarely in the I don't know category. Whenever the subject comes up, I think of two separate categories. The first are the stories that are extraordinary and generally have some sort of business associated with them. I generally dismiss things like that as false and only tales to garner attention. If these were the only stories I heard, I would probably just chalk the whole concept as false.

The second category is what makes me pause and think perhaps it is possible. Those scenarios are just like the ones in this thread. There are countless stories from people who have had inexplicable events that have caused them to have an unwavering belief in ghosts. These people have nothing to gain from telling their stories and in most cases are ridiculed for making the claims they do.

I have not ever had an encounter that rose to that level, but I have had several instances where things happened that I just couldn't explain. It is a fascinating topic to me.

Thanks to those who have shared their experiences.

A Sooner in Texas
9/29/2009, 08:31 PM
Sometimes, late at night while laying on the couch watching tv, I see a green haze float across the living room.:confused:

He who smelt it dealt it.
;)

Gresho Murford
9/29/2009, 08:59 PM
I dont know if i believe or not. We lived in a house one time in Yukon that one of the closet doors would not stay shut. It was a spare room i would shut it and notice a day or so later it was open. Didn't really think too much about it. the wife got on me on day for leaving it open. So i checked out the handle it was fine, shut good etc. Got up the next morning and it was open. So the next day, I put something down as a door stop, brick or something. Sure enough it was open again the next day. Never did figure it out.

My cousin moved in with us for a while and it always freaked him out. He wedged a bar from a bar bell against it one night got up the next morning and the bar was laying on the floor and the door was open.

never did figure it out.

should have videotaped it

Leroy Lizard
9/29/2009, 09:11 PM
should have videotaped it

This I don't understand. The cupboard door keeps opening. Well, stick a videocamera and see what happens!

My daughter said she saw a ghost one night when she got up to get a snack out of the kitchen at about 11 pm. She was truly scared and absolutely certain she saw it. I asked her if she had been dreaming, and she said no, that she had been up until then.

But she hadn't. She had fallen asleep by 10 pm because I saw her. She dreamed the whole thing.

This happens a lot, I suspect. We fall asleep and dream we are seeing a ghost, but the dream is so lucid that we don't even think we fell asleep at all. That explains probably 90% of the night sightings.

CK Sooner
9/29/2009, 09:14 PM
I can always tell a dream from reality because if I am dreaming I am able to wake up by opening my eyes up real wide in my dream and it works evertime.

starclassic tama
9/29/2009, 09:36 PM
there has never been an empirically verified supernatural event in all of recorded human history. not a resurrection, no walking on water, no ghosts, no mind readings, no clairvoyance. some will say "supernatural things are supernatural and thus cannot be empirically verified." i will say it is because they don't exist. and before you say "you can't see love either", this is true. but you have direct observational evidence of it's influence. everything in the universe has an explanation and reason, even if we don't know it yet.

Collier11
9/29/2009, 09:41 PM
There have been several thousand if not millions of cases where supernatural phenomenons can be proven, it is ultimately up to you if you believe or not because it isnt something that can be proven.

And im pretty sure that there has been a case of resurrection in our history, and I really like how you throw that in there with ghosts and goblins, really classy

SicEmBaylor
9/29/2009, 09:42 PM
I happen to believe in ghosts having grown up in a haunted house.

I could sit here and type all night about the crazy **** that's happened, but thankfully mother has already done that in book form.

Needless to say, I'd never believe that **** if I hadn't experienced it nearly every day of my life.

I don't believe in UFO's but then again I've never seen one for myself. It's really something you have to experience for yourself to truly believe.

AggieTool
9/29/2009, 09:50 PM
And im pretty sure that there has been a case of resurrection in our history,

'Cuz a book written by humans thousands of years ago said so.:D




and I really like how you throw that in there with ghosts and goblins, really classy

...and the difference is.....?:confused:

AggieTool
9/29/2009, 09:52 PM
I don't believe in human contrived superstition...

...but I do believe in science.

Dimensions may converge and present baffling phenomena we can't understand or comprehend.

:)

SanJoaquinSooner
9/29/2009, 09:53 PM
There have been several thousand if not millions of cases where supernatural phenomenons can be proven, it is ultimately up to you if you believe or not because it isnt something that can be proven.


You're not a logician by profession I take it.

starclassic tama
9/29/2009, 09:55 PM
There have been several thousand if not millions of cases where supernatural phenomenons can be proven, it is ultimately up to you if you believe or not because it isnt something that can be proven.

And im pretty sure that there has been a case of resurrection in our history, and I really like how you throw that in there with ghosts and goblins, really classy

you just said there were millions of cases where supernatural phenomenons can be proven, then the next sentence you said it isn't something that can be proven. so let's start with one. show me one EMPIRICALLY VERIFIED supernatural event that has ever taken place.

the second part is like saying that there have been cases of wizards flying around on brooms in our history because you read it in harry potter.

Collier11
9/29/2009, 10:23 PM
'Cuz a book written by humans thousands of years ago said so.:D





...and the difference is.....?:confused:

You acting as if you know is no better than a Christian or someone of another faith trying to push their views on you. Try showing some respect for what people believe in which has been documented whether you believe it or not.


You're not a logician by profession I take it.

I got in a hurry and typed incorrectly, this isnt English class. Let me try again, there are several thousand if not millions of cases that are documented whether it is in book or on video, because it cannot necessarily be "proven" it is up to you or I to decide if we believe or not. There are actually scientists and scholars who believe and have written on ghosts and the such, its not my place to do the research for you, if you dont believe then so be it.

There are also thousands of scientists that claim global warming is real and I strongly disagree with that BS and I can show you thousands of scientists and meterologists who feel the same way. Point being, with almost any top like this, you choose what to believe and what not and there will always be evidence to back you up and to say you are wrong.


you just said there were millions of cases where supernatural phenomenons can be proven, then the next sentence you said it isn't something that can be proven. so let's start with one. show me one EMPIRICALLY VERIFIED supernatural event that has ever taken place.

the second part is like saying that there have been cases of wizards flying around on brooms in our history because you read it in harry potter.

read above in both cases. Im not here to crap on your beliefs no matter how strongly I believe against them, I could tell you all day how you are going to Hell for not believing but im not doing that am I? So quit placing judgment on my beliefs just because you choose not to agree with them.

Turd_Ferguson
9/29/2009, 10:28 PM
I don't believe in human contrived superstition...

...but I do believe in science.

Dimensions may converge and present baffling phenomena we can't understand or comprehend.

:)Funny how you spew your **** as a troll, but won't do it under your regular moniker.:rolleyes:

starclassic tama
9/29/2009, 10:40 PM
read above in both cases. Im not here to crap on your beliefs no matter how strongly I believe against them, I could tell you all day how you are going to Hell for not believing but im not doing that am I? So quit placing judgment on my beliefs just because you choose not to agree with them.

science isn't a belief system. these aren't my beliefs. these are the facts that have been uncovered by human inspection to this point. facts are not interchangeable with beliefs. don't believe in the theory of gravitation or evolution or whatever, doesn't matter what you or i believe. things still will fall at 9.2 m/s^2 and genetic material will still be passed down from parent to offspring regardless of what anyone believes.

Petro-Sooner
9/29/2009, 10:44 PM
9.81? ;)

Collier11
9/29/2009, 10:53 PM
science isn't a belief system. these aren't my beliefs. these are the facts that have been uncovered by human inspection to this point. facts are not interchangeable with beliefs. don't believe in the theory of gravitation or evolution or whatever, doesn't matter what you or i believe. things still will fall at 9.2 m/s^2 and genetic material will still be passed down from parent to offspring regardless of what anyone believes.

and science is extremely flawed in many areas, luckily for me and everyone else who believes in God, science has no explanation for The Death and resurrection of Christ and I like it that way

starclassic tama
9/29/2009, 11:04 PM
the methodologies used by science are flawless. science(s) are obviously flawed because of limitations imposed by being human. of course there isn't an explanation for the resurrection, because it never happened. why wouldn't god just lay out the method which made it possible in the bible to avoid second guessing? he wants to play games with us and see who will believe the most ludicrous claims, and reward those and only those with eternal life? it's just like all the other outrageous claims every other religion on earth has made. jesus wasn't the first one to be resurrected. look up horus and all the others. christianity is just the white man's version, so OF COURSE it must be true and superior! did you know it's even possible to believe in god and NOT be a christian?! but they go to hell too, since they were born in a different part of the world and arrived at the same belief in a different way.

Collier11
9/29/2009, 11:25 PM
If you believe in God and not christianity that is odd, I could understand if you believe in Jesus but not Christianity.

It is clear that you know nothing of God or Christianity and Im not going to discuss it with you or the other two idjits in this thread, not because you dont believe what I believe but because of the shallowness and condescending way that you all choose to discuss this topic.

Have fun

starclassic tama
9/29/2009, 11:30 PM
i wasn't aware i was being condescending. interesting that you take it that way and proceed to call me an idiot. how can i disagree with you and not appear condescending? i have presented facts, you have presented nothing and called me an idiot and then said i'm condescending.

so tell me, and you can use a PM if you are done with this thread. what do you know about god and jesus that i don't?

starclassic tama
9/29/2009, 11:47 PM
question normanpride: if your uncle had still been alive, do you think that the message would still have been attributed to his voice? in other words, do you think it could have been suggestive, i.e. hearing what you want to hear? that is a really interesting story, and you don't seem like the type to just spout stuff off. how audible was his voice?

olevetonahill
9/29/2009, 11:52 PM
Sometimes, late at night while laying on the couch watching tv, I see a green haze float across the living room.:confused:

I aint never had Gas that bad :eek:

MR2-Sooner86
9/30/2009, 12:12 AM
First I want to thank everybody who has replied to this thread with your ideas and thoughts. I figured I'd throw in my two cents finally.

I don't claim to know anything. I will be the first to admit that. With that said, nobody can claim to know absolutely everything. I know that there are things in this universe that we do not know and have no idea where to begin to get answers. Is there a God? Heaven? Hell? Afterlife? Aliens? ESP? Spirits? Bigfoot? We don't know. You can say we don't have evidence so there is no such thing. Of course, we don't have the evidence to say we're 100% sure there isn't such a thing. Example, there is no evidence to show there's a god. None. It's all based on faith. However, there is no evidence that says there is no god. None. Believing the universe is by chance, is based on faith as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is everything we know, our reality, isn't black and white and everything can be written down into a 2+2=4 equation on a black board. It seems to me a whole lot of people believe this. What I find funny is even Christians (or people of any faith) follow this line of thought and laugh at people who say aliens or bigfoot exist yet have no problem questioning the accuracy of Noah's Ark and take it as 100% fact. (NOTE: That isn't a personal insult to Christians but it's something I find funny and it's a good point I think. I don't think you can laugh at people with a set of beliefs when you have a set of beliefs that, if looked at from outside, can be silly as well.)

I believe in aliens. Our universe is said to be some 93 billion light years across. This is just the part we can see. We're the only planet that can sustain life out of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of other planets and solar systems out there? Give me a break. Now when I mean aliens do I mean green men? No. Life. There is life out there, somewhere. How intelligent? I don't know.

Now that I got that out of the way, I believe in ghost or spirits. Not the ghost from the movies but I believe there's something we can't explain that's happening. When we die, do we enter another dimension? I know time is the 4th dimension but is there a 5th that we don't know about? We're just starting to learn about space time and how it can bend and be altered. Does the energy of a person when they die get trapped in an area or pass on?

I don't know. Again, I don't claim to know. All I know is weird stuff goes on that cannot be explained or debunked and what happens is nearly impossible to happen by chance in nature (random energy burst from no source, EMFs popping out of nowhere, hot/cold spots from no source that take shapes they shouldn't, sounds with no source, light with no source, etc).

Those who say I'm crazy for believing that, show me where I'm wrong. I would love to see the evidence that explains everything that has ever happened that cannot be explained. It'll help me sleep a little better at night. However, I know you won't be able to, because you can't. Science can't. Religion can't (again, not a dig at Christians but the best answer I've heard from people at church I've asked this is "it's the work of Satan"). Nobody can't. I wish somebody had the answers because I'd love to hear.

Collier11
9/30/2009, 12:18 AM
Most things cannot be explained or proven with 100% accuracy, alot of things can only be proven with faith, I agree with you in regards to almost everything you say. Even the things you say that I dont agree with I can live with because as an adult, you explained them respectfully and I can appreciate that.

This is an interesting topic to discuss!

batonrougesooner
9/30/2009, 07:41 AM
I've seen/experienced some weird stuff in my life as many others have. I'm not an especially stupid or gullible person, yet I can't deny or explain them.

One thing to keep in mind is that while the human mind has been able to elucidate a form of logic in the scientific method, there is still so much about our physical universe we have yet to comprehend. That is obvious.

So do I believe there is a paranormal reality or state that is present in our universe? Is there something to the "UFO" phenomenon? While it is yet to be proven, I think it is just as likely that there is than isn't.

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 08:17 AM
Most things cannot be explained or proven with 100% accuracy, alot of things can only be proven with faith.

"Faith" is usually supported by repeatable facts and science...e.g. I have "faith" water will freeze at 32f...or I have faith 20 ma of D.C. current will cause this actuator to cycle.

"Blind Faith" is a belief something will happen with no evidence or reason whatsoever.

Kinda like..."The guy with the beard told me if I blow up this building, I'll get to meet 72 virgins", or "Jesus cries when I touch myself".

See the difference?

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 08:23 AM
First I want to thank everybody who has replied to this thread with your ideas and thoughts. I figured I'd throw in my two cents finally.

I don't claim to know anything. I will be the first to admit that. With that said, nobody can claim to know absolutely everything. I know that there are things in this universe that we do not know and have no idea where to begin to get answers. Is there a God? Heaven? Hell? Afterlife? Aliens? ESP? Spirits? Bigfoot? We don't know. You can say we don't have evidence so there is no such thing. Of course, we don't have the evidence to say we're 100% sure there isn't such a thing. Example, there is no evidence to show there's a god. None. It's all based on faith. However, there is no evidence that says there is no god. None. Believing the universe is by chance, is based on faith as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is everything we know, our reality, isn't black and white and everything can be written down into a 2+2=4 equation on a black board. It seems to me a whole lot of people believe this. What I find funny is even Christians (or people of any faith) follow this line of thought and laugh at people who say aliens or bigfoot exist yet have no problem questioning the accuracy of Noah's Ark and take it as 100% fact. (NOTE: That isn't a personal insult to Christians but it's something I find funny and it's a good point I think. I don't think you can laugh at people with a set of beliefs when you have a set of beliefs that, if looked at from outside, can be silly as well.)

I believe in aliens. Our universe is said to be some 93 billion light years across. This is just the part we can see. We're the only planet that can sustain life out of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of other planets and solar systems out there? Give me a break. Now when I mean aliens do I mean green men? No. Life. There is life out there, somewhere. How intelligent? I don't know.

Now that I got that out of the way, I believe in ghost or spirits. Not the ghost from the movies but I believe there's something we can't explain that's happening. When we die, do we enter another dimension? I know time is the 4th dimension but is there a 5th that we don't know about? We're just starting to learn about space time and how it can bend and be altered. Does the energy of a person when they die get trapped in an area or pass on?

I don't know. Again, I don't claim to know. All I know is weird stuff goes on that cannot be explained or debunked and what happens is nearly impossible to happen by chance in nature (random energy burst from no source, EMFs popping out of nowhere, hot/cold spots from no source that take shapes they shouldn't, sounds with no source, light with no source, etc).

Those who say I'm crazy for believing that, show me where I'm wrong. I would love to see the evidence that explains everything that has ever happened that cannot be explained. It'll help me sleep a little better at night. However, I know you won't be able to, because you can't. Science can't. Religion can't (again, not a dig at Christians but the best answer I've heard from people at church I've asked this is "it's the work of Satan"). Nobody can't. I wish somebody had the answers because I'd love to hear.

Good post.

It's even funnier how some have limited God to this human contrived entity that is so weak that he can only concern himself with earthly matters like what we eat on Fridays, or which way we point our azz when we pray.

How condescending and self-indulged it is to think we're the only ones in vast expanse of the universe.

Now 'xcuse me while I go dance with snakes.:D

batonrougesooner
9/30/2009, 08:33 AM
What would have been considered witchcraft a century ago would be called technology now.

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 08:37 AM
What would have been considered witchcraft a century ago would be called technology now.

Maybe a century from now we can shed all superstition.:O

JohnnyMack
9/30/2009, 09:15 AM
Maybe a century from now we can shed all superstition.:O

Here's hoping.

JohnnyMack
9/30/2009, 09:46 AM
I believe in aliens. Our universe is said to be some 93 billion light years across. This is just the part we can see. We're the only planet that can sustain life out of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of other planets and solar systems out there? Give me a break. Now when I mean aliens do I mean green men? No. Life. There is life out there, somewhere. How intelligent? I don't know.


As our ancestors staggered out of the caves and the jungles and started looking around at the world around them, over time they started developing a series of stories/myths that gave them comfort and helped explain in their minds what was going on around them. Those belief systems evolved over the following centuries and were spread across the lands as we migrated to the far reaches of the globe. Some mythologies remained intact, others faded away. What's interesting is how thematically many of these belief systems mirror one-another, showing that regardless of our location or relative level of advancement, we as humans used similar ideas and concepts to explain and give relevance to our existence. All of that work was put into a very different light some forty years ago. This picture, to me more than any other, was the beginning of the end of the primitive religions and belief systems that have and continue to dot this rock we live on:

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/c7e67fd32e69483a309bf9b186e6bc05/Apollo-11-40th-Anniversary.jpg

It takes a great deal of introspection on behalf of a society, a culture and a people to accept that that which they have known is no longer the ultimate reality. Although we have struggled for thousands upon thousands of years to reach this level of advancement and to have it all thrown back in our face and be told that what we thought was correct and true is no more than a silly superstition used to pacify and coddle those who didn't have all the answers is something many aren't prepared to deal with.

As we progress along this evolutionary walk we're on and continue to gain knowledge of the space beyond our own planet's atmosphere it becomes, at least to me, harder and harder to accept any absolute truth that our tiny planet, in a rather unassuming solar system in a nondescript galaxy is the end all be all for the existence of life.

iwannabelikesam
9/30/2009, 09:47 AM
Maybe a century from now we can shed all superstition.:O

Oh my Science, I am praying to Science that this comes true, because religion is the bane of the world, Science damnit.

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 09:50 AM
As our ancestors staggered out of the caves and the jungles and started looking around at the world around them, over time they started developing a series of stories/myths that gave them comfort and helped explain in their minds what was going on around them. Those belief systems evolved over the following centuries and were spread across the lands as we migrated to the far reaches of the globe. Some mythologies remained intact, others faded away. What's interesting is how thematically many of these belief systems mirror one-another, showing that regardless of our location or relative level of advancement, we as humans used similar ideas and concepts to explain and give relevance to our existence. All of that work was put into a very different light some forty years ago. This picture, to me more than any other, was the beginning of the end of the primitive religions and belief systems that have and continue to dot this rock we live on:

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/c7e67fd32e69483a309bf9b186e6bc05/Apollo-11-40th-Anniversary.jpg

It takes a great deal of introspection on behalf of a society, a culture and a people to accept that that which they have known is no longer the ultimate reality. Although we have struggled for thousands upon thousands of years to reach this level of advancement and to have it all thrown back in our face and be told that what we thought was correct and true is no more than a silly superstition used to pacify and coddle those who didn't have all the answers is something many aren't prepared to deal with.

As we progress along this evolutionary walk we're on and continue to gain knowledge of the space beyond our own planet's atmosphere it becomes, at least to me, harder and harder to accept any absolute truth that our tiny planet, in a rather unassuming solar system in a nondescript galaxy is the end all be all for the existence of life.

how is that picture the beginning of the end of "primitive" religion? I struggle to see what you see I guess. I see Earth from the moon.

Jacie
9/30/2009, 09:58 AM
Seems some of the non-believers touched a nerve amongst a believer or two.

If there are such things as "ghosts" that can be perceived in our Universe, then they must be real phenomena. If they can be seen then they are either reflecting a type of electro-magnetic radiation that is the visible light spectrum to us or they generate their own E-M, such as fireflies, stars, light bulbs and, well, you get the picture.

If the argument is that "ghosts" exist beyond the realm of our Universe and thus cannot nor ever be explained or are immeasurable, then how can you limit the discussion to a few indistinct images in the dark or mysterious moving objects? Once you cross the line by saying there are things that are not really here, then you have to admit any and all other beliefs and superstitions no matter how silly or absurd. Ghosts, UFO's, Big Foot, Nessie, they are all valid.

The burden of proof is not on science to show that ghosts do not exist, rather, it is the other way around. Can science (or anyone else for that matter) show that ghosts do exist? So far, the proof is not there. Just because something is unexplainable does not mean there is no explanation.

If there are ghosts, the non-believers would love to see em! Show us! Same thing for UFO's, Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster et al. Scientists are the biggest fans of science fiction but they also know the difference between what is real and what is imagination or in some cases, wishful thinking.

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 10:01 AM
Seems some of the non-believers touched a nerve amongst a believer or two.

If there are such things as "ghosts" that can be perceived in our Universe, then they must be real phenomena. If they can be seen then they are either reflecting a type of electro-magnetic radiation that is the visible light spectrum to us or they generate their own E-M, such as fireflies, stars, light bulbs and, well, you get the picture.

If the argument is that "ghosts" exist beyond the realm of our Universe and thus cannot nor ever be explained or are immeasurable, then how can you limit the discussion to a few indistinct images in the dark or mysterious moving objects? Once you cross the line by saying there are things that are not really here, then you have to admit any and all other beliefs and superstitions no matter how silly or absurd. Ghosts, UFO's, Big Foot, Nessie, they are all valid.

The burden of proof is not on science to show that ghosts do not exist, rather, it is the other way around. Can science (or anyone else for that matter) show that ghosts do exist? So far, the proof is not there. Just because something is unexplainable does not mean there is no explanation.

If there are ghosts, the non-believers would love to see em! Show us! Same thing for UFO's, Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster et al. Scientists are the biggest fans of science fiction but they also know the difference between what is real and what is imagination or in some cases, wishful thinking.

actually, to me it seems like the believers touched a nerve or two with the non believers.

JohnnyMack
9/30/2009, 10:01 AM
how is that picture the beginning of the end of "primitive" religion? I struggle to see what you see I guess. I see Earth from the moon.

How many things have we thought to be "true" only to find out we weren't even close?

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 10:03 AM
How many things have we thought to be "true" only to find out we weren't even close?

I still don't see the point of your picture.

OUDoc
9/30/2009, 10:06 AM
How many things have we thought to be "true" only to find out we weren't even close?

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/files/2009/09/mikegundy.jpg

Collier11
9/30/2009, 10:13 AM
Seems some of the non-believers touched a nerve amongst a believer or two.

Here is my issue with Tool and Tama who both pissed me off, if you dont want me throwing my religion in your face or trying to "convert" you as they would likely say, then dont run around acting so arrogant and condescending towards my beliefs. While it is true that God and Christianity cant be proven in the scientific forum, I have no doubts about the existence of those things and I dont want to hear them talking down my faith anymore than they want me "preaching" to them.

If there are such things as "ghosts" that can be perceived in our Universe, then they must be real phenomena. If they can be seen then they are either reflecting a type of electro-magnetic radiation that is the visible light spectrum to us or they generate their own E-M, such as fireflies, stars, light bulbs and, well, you get the picture.

If the argument is that "ghosts" exist beyond the realm of our Universe and thus cannot nor ever be explained or are immeasurable, then how can you limit the discussion to a few indistinct images in the dark or mysterious moving objects? Once you cross the line by saying there are things that are not really here, then you have to admit any and all other beliefs and superstitions no matter how silly or absurd. Ghosts, UFO's, Big Foot, Nessie, they are all valid.

Couldnt they be though?

The burden of proof is not on science to show that ghosts do not exist, rather, it is the other way around. Can science (or anyone else for that matter) show that ghosts do exist? So far, the proof is not there. Just because something is unexplainable does not mean there is no explanation.

This is true but there are instances out the wazoo from credible people including myself that cannot be explained with the knowledge we have, and we may never have the knowledge to explain ghosts or any of that, who knows? IF you believe in God then maybe one day it will be explained, who knows.

If there are ghosts, the non-believers would love to see em! Show us! Same thing for UFO's, Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster et al. Scientists are the biggest fans of science fiction but they also know the difference between what is real and what is imagination or in some cases, wishful thinking.

Let me give you three instances that I think defy logic, cant be explained by science or dumb luck or imagination. Let me know your opinion honestly and trust me, im not making these up.

1) My aunt and uncle have a closet upstairs with two small double doors where they stored blankets, pillows, board games, etc... 5 or more times, while they were sitting at home, downstairs, with no kids in the house, those doors came open and everything in them fell off of the shelves. This isnt just a breeze, these were flat board games and heavy blankets?

2) At my house out in the country, never locked any of the doors during the day cus we lived in the country, ran into town to grab some food, came back and every single door in the house was locked and I was locked out of the house.

I know on that one you could say, well you might have accidentally locked the doors so im gonna list one more,

3) I am in middle school, both of my parents work a town away (about 10 miles) and dont get home from work til around 5 or 530 once they leave in the morning. Niether had come home that day, I come back from school about 330 and the speakers(those tall stand up speakers from back in the day) and all the pictures on the entertainment center are turned around facing the wall.

Im not asking you to explain these but I have atleast 5 more stories like these, while I still have no definitive proof of ghosts or something supernatural, this gives me a pretty good idea cus it happened to me or my close family. This is why I choose to believe that something is out there

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 10:15 AM
Let me give you three instances that I think defy logic, cant be explained by science or dumb luck or imagination. Let me know your opinion honestly and trust me, im not making these up.

1) My aunt and uncle have a closet upstairs with two small double doors where they stored blankets, pillows, board games, etc... 5 or more times, while they were sitting at home, downstairs, with no kids in the house, those doors came open and everything in them fell off of the shelves. This isnt just a breeze, these were flat board games and heavy blankets?

2) At my house out in the country, never locked any of the doors during the day cus we lived in the country, ran into town to grab some food, came back and every single door in the house was locked and I was locked out of the house.

I know on that one you could say, well you might have accidentally locked the doors so im gonna list one more,

3) I am in middle school, both of my parents work a town away (about 10 miles) and dont get home from work til around 5 or 530 once they leave in the morning. Niether had come home that day, I come back from school about 330 and the speakers(those tall stand up speakers from back in the day) and all the pictures on the entertainment center are turned around facing the wall.

Im not asking you to explain these but I have atleast 5 more stories like these, while I still have no definitive proof of ghosts or something supernatural, this gives me a pretty good idea cus it happened to me or my close family. This is why I choose to believe that something is out there

obviously you had earthquakes :)

Collier11
9/30/2009, 10:17 AM
likely ;)

OUDoc
9/30/2009, 10:23 AM
And I quote Dr. Venkman:
You're right, no human being would stack books like this.

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 10:36 AM
UFO's, Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster et al. Scientists are the biggest fans of science fiction but they also know the difference between what is real and what is imagination or in some cases, wishful thinking.

At least with the UFO thing (if we're talking about intelligent life on other planets), has been proven in a way statistically.

Science does provide the means to quantify the number planets in the universe capable of supporting life.

Sheet, they even found the fossils of primitive organisms on Mars.

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 10:39 AM
At least with the UFO thing (if we're talking about intelligent life on other planets), has been proven in a way statistically.

Science does provide the means to quantify the number planets in the universe capable of supporting life.

Sheet, they even found the fossils of primitive organisms on Mars.

Many times these "number of planets" and such are all calculated using many assumptions. It could be off by a magnitude of thousands. Science is not always accurate. As for the fossils on Mars, do you have a link for that>?

yermom
9/30/2009, 10:42 AM
Let me give you three instances that I think defy logic, cant be explained by science or dumb luck or imagination. Let me know your opinion honestly and trust me, im not making these up.

1) My aunt and uncle have a closet upstairs with two small double doors where they stored blankets, pillows, board games, etc... 5 or more times, while they were sitting at home, downstairs, with no kids in the house, those doors came open and everything in them fell off of the shelves. This isnt just a breeze, these were flat board games and heavy blankets?

2) At my house out in the country, never locked any of the doors during the day cus we lived in the country, ran into town to grab some food, came back and every single door in the house was locked and I was locked out of the house.

I know on that one you could say, well you might have accidentally locked the doors so im gonna list one more,

3) I am in middle school, both of my parents work a town away (about 10 miles) and dont get home from work til around 5 or 530 once they leave in the morning. Niether had come home that day, I come back from school about 330 and the speakers(those tall stand up speakers from back in the day) and all the pictures on the entertainment center are turned around facing the wall.

Im not asking you to explain these but I have atleast 5 more stories like these, while I still have no definitive proof of ghosts or something supernatural, this gives me a pretty good idea cus it happened to me or my close family. This is why I choose to believe that something is out there



Collier, if you didn't lock your doors, i could have done all those things.

believing in ghosts might be a little less crazy than believing in Jesus ;)

at least ghost stories are generally word of mouth from someone you know, vs. something someone wrote 2000 years ago that was then edited and put together and translated a few hundred years later.

you guys talk about how biased the media is now. how do you think it was when the Romans put the Bible together?

Collier11
9/30/2009, 10:48 AM
I dont want to turn this into a is there a God or not thread as much as we are trying, and I see what you are saying Yermom. There is evidence outside of the Bible though, and it is alot on personal Faith. I am fully confident in what I believe though

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 10:51 AM
Yeah lets turn this into another religious thread. More ghost stories!

Pricetag
9/30/2009, 10:56 AM
There are so many interesting places in this universe and so many interesting things that have happened over the course of time, even just here on Earth, that it's a shame that we're limited to experience just one short lifetime worth of it, roaming just a few hundred square miles, for the most part. I've always hoped that Heaven/the afterlife will give us the ability to travel space and time and see everything.

I don't know about ghosts. I hate the idea of spirits being able to roam unfettered and to interact with our physical world, especially if they might be angry.

I can certainly understand the idea of a spirit hanging around, considering the way we humans tend to develop routines. I've always thought that if I were to pass before being able to see my children grow up, that the regret would be palpable, that I might be inclined to hang around if I could.

NormanPride
9/30/2009, 10:57 AM
question normanpride: if your uncle had still been alive, do you think that the message would still have been attributed to his voice? in other words, do you think it could have been suggestive, i.e. hearing what you want to hear? that is a really interesting story, and you don't seem like the type to just spout stuff off. how audible was his voice?

Yeah, that's one of the things I wondered about. It was like someone left the cell phone next to a TV that was playing an old home movie, but of course we don't have any recordings like that... I never knew my great uncle, but the family that did guessed his voice right away from the phone message.

Leroy Lizard
9/30/2009, 11:02 AM
Sheet, they even found the fossils of primitive organisms on Mars.

They thought they did, but they turned out to be ordinary rocks.


Let me give you three instances that I think defy logic, cant be explained by science or dumb luck or imagination. Let me know your opinion honestly and trust me, im not making these up.

You may not be making them up (although you could be), but you could be exaggerating. These fall under the realm of personal anecdotes.

Two doors get locked mysteriously, and by the time the story is finished the entire house was locked.

I find it easier to believe that there is a rational explanation for what took place than to believe that people, after dying, have nothing better to do in the afterlife than go around opening closet doors and throwing out blankets. Is that all there is to the afterlife: a series of tantrums?

Right now we have web cam technology that should have easily captured events like this as they unfolded. But for some reason, the people whose houses are infested with ghosts never bother to set up a web cam.

yermom
9/30/2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah, that's one of the things I wondered about. It was like someone left the cell phone next to a TV that was playing an old home movie, but of course we don't have any recordings like that... I never knew my great uncle, but the family that did guessed his voice right away from the phone message.


could it not have been someone in the house that may have accidentally dialed the cellphone and was looking for your aunt?

i guess i'm pretty firmly on the Scully side on this whole deal ;)

Collier11
9/30/2009, 11:05 AM
actually there is tons of video on youtube, now deciding which ones are real or staged is the tough part but there are alot that look legit

NormanPride
9/30/2009, 11:08 AM
could it not have been someone in the house that may have accidentally dialed the cellphone and was looking for your aunt?

i guess i'm pretty firmly on the Scully side on this whole deal ;)

Things I think are possible:

The dogs got loose in the house and somehow both dialed my dad's cell from my aunt's AND turned on the TV. I guess this is possible as they are hyper dogs, but they're in crates when my aunt and uncle are gone.

The cell phone company got its wires crossed and some bad data came through the lines and made a call that didn't really exist. This is almost impossible, though.

My aunt's memory is incorrect and she did in fact dial the number by accident from her purse or pocket or something.

We're all fairly scientific as a family, and my dad and I love science fiction novels that border more on the "exploration of technology's impact on society" rather than the technofantasy of some novels. So we really tried to debunk this as much as possible... I heard the recording, and it's everything you would think an eerie recording from beyond would be. :D

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 11:20 AM
Many times these "number of planets" and such are all calculated using many assumptions. It could be off by a magnitude of thousands. Science is not always accurate. As for the fossils on Mars, do you have a link for that>?

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/marslif6.htm

Google is yer friend.:)

The "assumptions" you mention are based on scientific principles and are usually called "variables" in equations.

You know, like they kind they used to develop nuclear energy and bath soap.

Collier11
9/30/2009, 11:28 AM
you are such a doosh it is unfathomable

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 11:31 AM
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/marslif6.htm

Google is yer friend.:)

The "assumptions" you mention are based on scientific principles and are usually called "variables" in equations.

You know, like they kind they used to develop nuclear energy and bath soap.

yeah i get it tool. guess what, they are still assumptions.

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 11:38 AM
yeah i get it tool. guess what, they are still assumptions.

Yer right.:rolleyes:

More likely an invisible sky god that doesn't like homosexuals poofed us out of his beard 6000 years ago and then we rode around on dinosaurs.:D

That's much more likely.:D

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 11:39 AM
you are such a doosh it is unfathomable

Who luvs ya toots?:D

OhU1
9/30/2009, 11:51 AM
This thread is just another reminder of how out of touch I am with some technology. Norman Pride's great uncle who has been dead over 20 years uses a cell phone and I still do not own one.

NormanPride
9/30/2009, 11:55 AM
Don't feel bad. From what I hear, he was a pretty hip old dude. :)

iwannabelikesam
9/30/2009, 12:11 PM
I'm not sure I believe in Heaven (it is impossible to prove), but if it does exist I am sure it is completely incorporeal, because when you die, you leave your physical body behind. There would not be anything physical about Heaven.

If you believe in Heaven, then you cannot believe in ghosts. The completely unphysical nature of existence in Heaven would make it impossible to exist on any physical level, such as ghosts. Not just "ghosts" being seen, or them physically doing things, but also their voice, does not exist on Earth, because all those attributes were left behind when their body died.

Turd_Ferguson
9/30/2009, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I believe in Heaven (it is impossible to prove), but if it does exist I am sure it is completely incorporeal, because when you die, you leave your physical body behind. There would not be anything physical about Heaven.

If you believe in Heaven, then you cannot believe in ghosts. The completely unphysical nature of existence in Heaven would make it impossible to exist on any physical level, such as ghosts. Not just "ghosts" being seen, or them physically doing things, but also their voice, does not exist on Earth, because all those attributes were left behind when their body died.Step AWAY from the crack pipe.

iwannabelikesam
9/30/2009, 12:18 PM
Step AWAY from the crack pipe.

Can't you tell the difference between a crack pipe and a marijuana pipe?

Collier11
9/30/2009, 12:18 PM
exactly!

and yes, you can believe in Heaven and Ghosts

JLEW1818
9/30/2009, 12:20 PM
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

iwannabelikesam
9/30/2009, 12:22 PM
exactly!

and yes, you can believe in Heaven and Ghosts

Do you believe Heaven is a place where you are sitting on a cloud with a harp and wings looking down on Earth? There is nothing physical about Heaven, the physical part of you was left behind 6 feet under ground.

Turd_Ferguson
9/30/2009, 12:28 PM
Who luvs ya toots?:DDoes Oboma believe in God?

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 12:49 PM
Does Oboma believe in God?

Obama believes in Obama....:D

Pricetag
9/30/2009, 12:59 PM
This thread is just another reminder of how out of touch I am with some technology. Norman Pride's great uncle who has been dead over 20 years uses a cell phone and I still do not own one.
You should listen to more Weird Al Yankovic. He foresaw this technology over 20 years ago in his song "Midnight Star":


And top psychics all agree
That the telephone company
Will have a brand new service that lets you talk to the dead

Collier11
9/30/2009, 01:18 PM
Do you believe Heaven is a place where you are sitting on a cloud with a harp and wings looking down on Earth? There is nothing physical about Heaven, the physical part of you was left behind 6 feet under ground.

Of course not, Heaven is a place for your soul to go, as far as the streets lined with gold, who knows?

You still arent making sense, Ghosts dont inhabit a physical body from everything ive ever heard or experienced. Ghosts and Heaven are two seperate things


You should listen to more Weird Al Yankovic. He foresaw this technology over 20 years ago in his song "Midnight Star":

Wierd Al is the suc

iwannabelikesam
9/30/2009, 01:32 PM
Of course not, Heaven is a place for your soul to go, as far as the streets lined with gold, who knows?

You still arent making sense, Ghosts dont inhabit a physical body from everything ive ever heard or experienced. Ghosts and Heaven are two seperate things


Then how do they lock doors or move objects or turn on/off lights or make noises/voices/talk (no vocal cords right?), etc.

Collier11
9/30/2009, 01:45 PM
thats the question that needs to be answered, all of this points back to the "some things dont have an answer, atleast at this point" statement

yermom
9/30/2009, 02:01 PM
if you believe the Bible, angels could take human form, so i'm not sure where this conversation really comes from

i mean, Jesus is magic ;)

Frozen Sooner
9/30/2009, 02:03 PM
thats the question that needs to be answered, all of this points back to the "some things dont have an answer, atleast at this point" statement

This is the trouble.

When presented with something that they can't explain, do people immediately ascribe it to the supernatural or do they look for a natural explanation?

"Magic" isn't really an explanation of anything.

Gresho Murford
9/30/2009, 02:05 PM
of course most people try to find logical explanations to things. And nobody in this thread is asking nonbelievers to prove anything. We are simply discussing events. So stop with all this "The burden of proof is on the believers" nonsense

iwannabelikesam
9/30/2009, 02:13 PM
The burden of proof is on the believers.





:)

Collier11
9/30/2009, 02:16 PM
I dont have any burden of proof, if you dont believe that is your decision whether you are talking about God, Ghosts, or the Horsepigs

JLEW1818
9/30/2009, 02:19 PM
Harry Potter believes in God

OhU1
9/30/2009, 02:44 PM
If you believe in Heaven, then you cannot believe in ghosts. The completely unphysical nature of existence in Heaven would make it impossible to exist on any physical level, such as ghosts. Not just "ghosts" being seen, or them physically doing things, but also their voice, does not exist on Earth, because all those attributes were left behind when their body died.

Yeah, well, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ;)

Frozen Sooner
9/30/2009, 03:27 PM
of course most people try to find logical explanations to things. And nobody in this thread is asking nonbelievers to prove anything. We are simply discussing events. So stop with all this "The burden of proof is on the believers" nonsense

The question presented was whether you believe in ghosts or not. I frame my answer to such questions by explaining why there is insufficient proof and why the burden of persuasion lies on the positive hypothesis. If you aren't able to handle that, fine, but feel free to let other people discuss it.

starclassic tama
9/30/2009, 04:39 PM
Here is my issue with Tool and Tama who both pissed me off, if you dont want me throwing my religion in your face or trying to "convert" you as they would likely say, then dont run around acting so arrogant and condescending towards my beliefs. While it is true that God and Christianity cant be proven in the scientific forum, I have no doubts about the existence of those things and I dont want to hear them talking down my faith anymore than they want me "preaching" to them.

actually you are wrong with regards to me. i love being "preached" to and people throwing their religion in my face and trying to convert me because i love arguing with people. especially when i have the facts to back up what i say and the other side only has fiction. makes it a fun argument. you on the other hand seem to have a problem with people "preaching" and throwing their lack of religion in your face.

landrun
9/30/2009, 06:17 PM
I don't believe in human contrived superstition...

...but I do believe in science.

Dimensions may converge and present baffling phenomena we can't understand or comprehend.

:)

Sounds good... at first.

But I think you have to define what science is. It is the study of physical thing using our 5 senses. That's all we can use because it is all we have. If truth can exist in a way we can not observe it with our sense, then we can never know it. At least not in the same way we can using our sense.

You mention 'dimensions' converging. But that sentence alone negates your belief in science. Other dimensions are a theory. They can not be proven... no more than a religious belief can.

Me thinks you're trying to sound logical and philosophical in your rejecting of the paranormal but really your just like the rest of us nut jobs because you believe that dimensions can converge when we don't even know if other dimensions exit. -- at least not by science as you seem to have defined it.

yermom
9/30/2009, 06:28 PM
the difference is "may"

if you said "God may have created the universe" then we might not be having all these heated discussions ;)

AggieTool
9/30/2009, 08:05 PM
Sounds good... at first.

But I think you have to define what science is. It is the study of physical thing using our 5 senses. That's all we can use because it is all we have. If truth can exist in a way we can not observe it with our sense, then we can never know it. At least not in the same way we can using our sense.

You mention 'dimensions' converging. But that sentence alone negates your belief in science. Other dimensions are a theory. They can not be proven... no more than a religious belief can.

Me thinks you're trying to sound logical and philosophical in your rejecting of the paranormal but really your just like the rest of us nut jobs because you believe that dimensions can converge when we don't even know if other dimensions exit. -- at least not by science as you seem to have defined it.

Here check this out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

Sorry, I'll err on the side of the likes of Einstein, Greene, and Duff instead of Falwell, Hagee, and 2000 year old manuscripts written by people who thought the wolrd was at the center of the universe and gravity was magic.

Sooner_Havok
9/30/2009, 08:09 PM
You mention 'dimensions' converging. But that sentence alone negates your belief in science. Other dimensions are a theory. They can not be proven... no more than a religious belief can.


Well, depending on whether or not you subscribe to M-Theory (the newest hottest flavor of string theory) there are 11 dimensions, and we can only "see" 4 of them. They can be mathematically proven, but not physically...yet.

Now, you could argue that "ghosts" are bleeding into our universe from another universe in the multiverse, but that again is strictly conjecture.

As for me, I believe in ghosts about as much as I believe in the invisible fire breathing dragon in my garage. But if other people think they are real, I'm not going to hate on them. Weird shart happens, and if some people want to attribute that to ghosts and what not, so be it. But keep in mind, 200 years ago people thought maggots were created from rancid meat, and had no clue about microbial diseases.

So long as someone out there continues to try and figure crap out, I don't see the harm in us common folk believing in spooks and specters.

SicEmBaylor
9/30/2009, 08:13 PM
I love the Olympics, but I don't love the modern touchy-feely "bringing the world together" bull****.


And...as much as I love watching the Olympics....it's a colossal waste of money.

Sooner_Havok
9/30/2009, 08:17 PM
I love the Olympics, but I don't love the modern touchy-feely "bringing the world together" bull****.


And...as much as I love watching the Olympics....it's a colossal waste of money.

Um, wrong thread boss

SicEmBaylor
9/30/2009, 09:42 PM
Um, wrong thread boss

God, every time I try to climb off the fail boat and onto the peer I fall right back on board.

Sooner_Havok
9/30/2009, 09:53 PM
God, every time I try to climb off the fail boat and onto the peer I fall right back on board.

heh

Frozen Sooner
9/30/2009, 09:58 PM
God, every time I try to climb off the fail boat and onto the peer I fall right back on board.

I knew you were a monarchist at heart.

Gresho Murford
10/1/2009, 09:49 AM
But I think you have to define what science is. It is the study of physical thing using our 5 senses. That's all we can use because it is all we have. If truth can exist in a way we can not observe it with our sense, then we can never know it. At least not in the same way we can using our sense.



wow. So if you can't hear,smell, taste, touch, or see something it is not science. You must have ALOT of unexplained things then.

Collier11
10/1/2009, 09:51 AM
God, every time I try to climb off the fail boat and onto the peer I fall right back on board.

just like the football team you cheer for :D

sooner n houston
10/1/2009, 12:42 PM
I have read only the first post of this thread so this may have already been said. As far as the Christian types being opposed to witches:

Do a word search on biblegatway.com and this is what you get:


Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

2 Kings 9:22
When Joram saw Jehu he asked, "Have you come in peace, Jehu?" "How can there be peace," Jehu replied, "as long as all the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother Jezebel abound?"

2 Chronicles 33:6
He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

Micah 5:12
I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.

Nahum 3:4
all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.

Galatians 5:20
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

Turd_Ferguson
10/1/2009, 12:49 PM
You lost me at "Deuteronomy".

JohnnyMack
10/1/2009, 01:06 PM
I have read only the first post of this thread so this may have already been said. As far as the Christian type being opposed to witches:

What about Monty Python? What were his thoughts?

SicEmBaylor
10/1/2009, 05:05 PM
just like the football team you cheer for :D

Baylor football is something of a synonym for my life. :)

landrun
10/1/2009, 05:15 PM
wow. So if you can't hear,smell, taste, touch, or see something it is not science. You must have ALOT of unexplained things then.

Such as?



Science: systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

olevetonahill
10/2/2009, 11:10 PM
MY dad Died in 92
Aint seen him since :eek: