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SoonerKnight
9/19/2009, 02:20 AM
Well let's see the Republicans want to block everything that could possibly reduce healthcare costs. They help Baucus, one of the biggest healthcare industy whores write a craptastic bill and then run and hide. There is some mighty fine leadership!!! :rolleyes:

The Democrats hell they are not any better they got themselves conservitive, liberal and just plain wimpy members of Congress. We need to fix the healthcare in the U.S. it is a fact we spend 2 trillion dollars on healthcare all the while the CEO's of companies that provide our healthcare are making a Billion dollar comp packages the lower and middle class is gettin screwed.

These companies could lower cost by not paying so much for the CEO's. A government option as I see it would have lower healthcare cost and these companies are scared of that because they would not have a monopoly over peoples lives.

When I got out of the military I did not have healthcare. I moved back to Oklahoma briefly before I got a job with healthcare and while in OKC I was sick. I went to a clinic that took people that did not have health insurance. I think I paid $55.00 to see the doc and get better. Unfourtunately I have not seen those clinics around the U.S. in great numbers and if I needed surgery or something I woulda been screwed.

Now, when I first got out of the military I was in Cali and went to a doctor that was Mormon and believed in helping people he actually would barter and trade for discount medical care. He would also give out sample prescription meds if you didn't have insurance. He was the exception to the rule.

I personally have health insurance now through my employer. I go with Kaiser because they are non-profit cheaper and they gave me a $100.00 check the other day because they made a profit!! I pay $240.00 a month for my medical care.

Anyway, I got this to say Republicans (conservitives) you guys suck! Democrats (libs and the wishy washy wimps) You guys suck!! For christ sake can't we realize that we need to get people healthcare that noone without insurance can afford a $500.00 aspirin and that if more people were insured cost would go down. I am not for the Gov't running healthcare hell the VA almost killed my dad. No, I am for making these companies run like Kaiser. I would also point out that these companies deny doctor recommended procedures because they cost. That is wrong!!!

That is all!! :pop:

Octavian
9/19/2009, 03:44 AM
The Republican Party is absolutely irrelevant.


The Democrats posses the Senate and the House of Representatives -- both by overwhelming majorities. Not to mention the White House.


The vast majority of the fourth estate is firmly behind the leaders and the agenda of the Democratic Party. Most of the television stations are little more than an extension of the DNC.


If this health care fiasco doesn't pass, blame your neighbors....because they're the ones who are terrifying the leaders of the Democratic Party. And the Democratic Party is in complete and total control.

Harry Beanbag
9/19/2009, 10:07 AM
Reforming Congress should be priority number one.

picasso
9/19/2009, 10:14 AM
If you really think the current agenda is to simply lower health care costs then you're whizzin in the wind. They want a total takeover which will be the biggest cluster **** this country has ever faced.

Careful what you wish for.

1890MilesToNorman
9/19/2009, 10:17 AM
Stop using the term democratic, it's democrat.

Curly Bill
9/19/2009, 10:27 AM
Well let's see the Republicans want to block everything that could possibly reduce healthcare costs. They help Baucus, one of the biggest healthcare industy whores write a craptastic bill and then run and hide. There is some mighty fine leadership!!! :rolleyes:

There are Republicans in positions of leadership?

Do you know something that no one else does?




...and if you think the goal of ObamaCare is to reduce costs then you're a straight running dumas.

SoonerKnight
9/19/2009, 01:06 PM
The Republican Party is absolutely irrelevant.


The Democrats posses the Senate and the House of Representatives -- both by overwhelming majorities. Not to mention the White House.


The vast majority of the fourth estate is firmly behind the leaders and the agenda of the Democratic Party. Most of the television stations are little more than an extension of the DNC.

If you think Obama is not a citizen or that he is the anti-christ then you are a straight running dumas!
If this health care fiasco doesn't pass, blame your neighbors....because they're the ones who are terrifying the leaders of the Democratic Party. And the Democratic Party is in complete and total control.

the Dems do not have over whelming numbers in the Senate. They have 59 to 40 but that is including 2 independants and you need 60 usually to get things done. And over whelming numbers for the senate would be considered 75 to 25 then the Dems could do whatever they felt like.

SoonerKnight
9/19/2009, 01:11 PM
There are Republicans in positions of leadership?

Do you know something that no one else does?




...and if you think the goal of ObamaCare is to reduce costs then you're a straight running dumas.

To be elected as a member of Congress is a leadership position.

The Dems are dumb enough to allow the republicans a say in the bills.

NO, the plan is not a total take over. You have no proof of that either so save the dumas remark for someone that cares about paranoid schitzos!!!! Think for yourself instead of believing everthing Fox news tells ya! You ever actually check their facts when they spew their BS? :rolleyes:

If you think Obama is not a citizen and that he is the anti-christ you are a straight running dumas!!!

1890MilesToNorman
9/19/2009, 01:18 PM
I wonder if our Senators and Reps are even going to read the legislation before they vote on this time? That would be novel.

I'm sure everyone posting in this thread has read it cover to cover. :rolleyes:

SanJoaquinSooner
9/19/2009, 01:47 PM
Stop using the term democratic, it's democrat.

yeah and what do you Maniacs know about the distinction between nouns and adjectives?

1890MilesToNorman
9/19/2009, 01:57 PM
I know what a pain in the assic is like.

Curly Bill
9/19/2009, 11:35 PM
To be elected as a member of Congress is a leadership position.

The Dems are dumb enough to allow the republicans a say in the bills.

NO, the plan is not a total take over. You have no proof of that either so save the dumas remark for someone that cares about paranoid schitzos!!!! Think for yourself instead of believing everthing Fox news tells ya! You ever actually check their facts when they spew their BS? :rolleyes:

If you think Obama is not a citizen and that he is the anti-christ you are a straight running dumas!!!

Awwwwww, someone got their little feelers hurt. :(

SoonerKnight
9/20/2009, 12:22 AM
:confused: perhaps it is harder than I thought to be a smart a s s on a message board but the answer is NO my feelers were not hurt! I am a big boy thank you very much! :rolleyes:

Collier11
9/20/2009, 12:34 AM
doubt it, big boys know what they are posting about before they post about it

SoonerKnight
9/20/2009, 12:45 AM
Really? You the expert? :rolleyes: Show some facts I was simply ranting cuz I was bored but please educate me on where I was wrong in stating my opinion.

Collier11
9/20/2009, 12:50 AM
I dont have to prove to you where you were wrong, you did that yourself

SoonerKnight
9/20/2009, 01:27 AM
I dont have to prove to you where you were wrong, you did that yourself

Smart answer or really lazy answer not sure which!


Whatever! :rolleyes:

Collier11
9/20/2009, 01:35 AM
BOTH :D

SoonerKnight
9/20/2009, 01:50 AM
I was being sarcastic when I said smart! :D

Let's say I meant the opposite!! :D :D :D

Either way both parties suck!

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 04:17 PM
I was being sarcastic when I said smart! :D

Let's say I meant the opposite!! :D :D :D

Either way both parties suck!

Yup. Republicans just don't want a bill that might help Americans coming from the left. It would turn a generation of voters away from the republican party and towards the Democratic party. Believe me, they know the system needs a swift kick in the ***, they just don't want that kick to come from the other party.

But Democrats are the most sniveling, cry-baby group of people ever assembled under one roof. They don't want to pass a bill that might not work by themselves because they would turn a whole generation of voters away from them and into the embrace of the Republican party. So, they keep trying to get bipartisan support for their bills, that way if they fail, the blame gets spread around.

Both sides need to grow up! Republicans, if you think something needs to be done, then ****ing do it! Stop worrying about the next election cycle or who will get the credit for fixing a broken system. Do what you were hired to do, get **** done!

Democrats, stop crying about how the Republicans won't play nice and help you out, they are the ****ing opposition party, by their very title they are going to oppose you! If you think something needs to be done, and you have the numbers (which you do) then stop worrying about the next damned election cycle or who will take the blame if a bill fails to do what you thought it would. Do what you were hired to do, get **** done!

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 04:19 PM
Yup. Republicans just don't want a bill that might help Americans coming from the left. It would turn a generation of voters away from the republican party and towards the Democratic party. Believe me, they know the system needs a swift kick in the ***, they just don't want that kick to come from the other party.

But Democrats are the most sniveling, cry-baby group of people ever assembled under one roof. They don't want to pass a bill that might not work by themselves because they would turning a whole generation of voters away from them and into the embrace of the Republican party. So, they keep trying to get bipartisan support for their bills, that way if they fail, the blame gets spread around.

Both sides need to grow up! Republicans, if you think something needs to be done, then ****ing do it! Stop worrying about the next election cycle or who will get the credit for fixing a broken system. Do what you were hired to do, get **** done!

Democrats, stop crying about how the Republicans won't play nice and help you out, they are the ****ing opposition party, by their very title they are going to oppose you! If you think something needs to be done, and you have the numbers (which you do) then stop worrying about the next damned election cycle or who will take the blame if a bill fails to do what you thought it would. Do what you were hired to do, get **** done!

Even if it's bad ****, that's gonna take the country further down the wrong path?

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 04:34 PM
Even if it's bad ****, that's gonna take the country further down the wrong path?

If they think they have a bill that will fix the problems in this country, then I don't give a flying **** about what someone like you thinks about it. No offense, but I really don't.

I remember MAPS around here, back in 1993 this city was pretty evenly divided on whether it was a good idea, or something that was going to take this city further down the wrong path. I will give you some homework. Find the 48% of the population that voted against MAPS. Almost no one will admit to voting against it now. Why? It worked. If our leaders had listened to the vocal minority 16 years ago, where would our city be now?

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 04:37 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna do homework! :rolleyes:

Gimme some insurance reform and some tort reform and call it good.

Otherwise doing something just to say we did something is dumas.

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 04:46 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna do homework! :rolleyes:

Gimme some insurance reform and some tort reform and call it good.

Otherwise doing something just to say we did something is dumas.

Both good ideas, but I am not saying do something for the sake of doing something. I am saying, if the officials elected to fix a problem, have a bill that they truly believe will fix a problem, then stop *****-footing around and pass it! A majority of this country wants them to do it, but they are scared of the very vocal minority. Granted in this case it is a very well armed, and very committed minority, but they need to grow a pair.

So you think it sucks I get that. In 20 years when this country not only has the best health care in the world, but also the most affordable and accessible, are you going to stand up and say "I was against that bill from the beginning! They passed it just to say they tried!" No, you will sit the **** down, enjoy your t-bone steak, and go about your day like you always had.

When an idea works, and works well, it is hard to find people who originally opposed it, even if it was passed by the thinnest of margins.

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 04:50 PM
If they pass a bill that a majority of democrats approve of, and it works...first off: I'll eat my hat.

...and secondly: yeah, I'll say I opposed it. I have no problem stating my opinion, and 20 years from now I'll still do it.

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 04:58 PM
If they pass a bill that a majority of democrats approve of, and it works...first off: I'll eat my hat.

...and secondly: yeah, I'll say I opposed it. I have no problem stating my opinion, and 20 years from now I'll still do it.

First, remember that a majority of this country voted for Obama, and one of his big campaign promises was to reform health care. So we are not just talking about a majority of democrats here, we are talking about a majority of the people in this country.

Second, if you would be willing to stand up and say you opposed a bill that had brought immense prosperity 20 years down the road, then you sir are a marvel, because not many people are willing to admit that the course of action they would have taken wouldn't have had a positive effect.

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:02 PM
I know Brack won the election and all that, but if the vote were held today would that still hold?

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 05:12 PM
I know Brack won the election and all that, but if the vote were held today would that still hold?

Does it matter?

I know "W" won the 2004 election, but if they held the election again in 2005, would he have won? So, should we discount all of the Bush era legislation because he signed it into law when his approval ratings were in the 20's?

Put it this way. Bush wins the presidency, but then fights a war on terror using tactics that much of the country, including some of those that voted for him, find extremely questionable. Do we say, "Sorry Mr. President, the people no longer agree with your plan, the MSM has turned them against you. Sorry, but you can no longer fight terrorism."

No, it is to late, we voted for him, he gets to do what he thinks is best for the country. No do-overs. If you want to join the do-over group, I still see people with Gore/Lieberman bumper stickers around, I can try to get their numbers for you. You could have a pity party! Don't know how well that would work though, you would both want mulligans on different elections...

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:16 PM
You used Brack winning the election to try and claim that people support overhauling the health care system. He won the election almost a year ago, and since that time he has lost much of his support, largely due to ObamaCare.

We don't get a mulligan, but to claim that because people voted for him 10 months ago and so they now support ObamaCare is stretching credulity.

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 05:27 PM
You used Brack winning the election to try and claim that people support overhauling the health care system. He won the election almost a year ago, and since that time he has lost much of his support, largely due to ObamaCare.

We don't get a mulligan, but to claim that because people voted for him 10 months ago and so they now support ObamaCare is stretching credulity.

No, I was saying that since he won the election the conservative movement, spear headed by the likes of Limbaugh, Beck, Savage, O'Reilly, Hannity, and the rest of the Fox and friends have scared the ever loving **** out of the American people. They have, so steal a conservative term of art, shaken the resolve of the American people. Did Bush say, "Well people don't like ma war any more, best call the troops home." No, he said "I did what I was elected to do, keep you safe. Just because you may not agree with me anymore doesn't mean I am going to stop. I think this is what is right for America, you will thank me later."

And why, according to Republicans, did Bush loose the support of the American people? Why, the liberal MSM of course! Did bush give a flying ****? Hell know, he did what, in his mind, was best for this country, even if it meant his approval dropped to the high teens and low 20's.

Keep in mind, Obama is still over 50% in approval ratings...

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 05:28 PM
We don't get a mulligan, but to claim that because people voted for him 10 months ago and so they now support ObamaCare is stretching credulity.

How about a couple of weeks ago?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aV5yzXGAgn4I


More than 8 out of 10 people support covering the uninsured, curbing costs, creating an insurance-purchasing exchange, and preventing insurers from dropping coverage or refusing to accept people with preexisting medical conditions. Majorities say employers should have to offer insurance and individuals should be required to have coverage.

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:31 PM
So...most Americans think we need to fix the healthcare system, that's not news. That doesn't neccessarily mean they support ObamaCare.

I think there are problems with our healthcare system, I don't even remotely support ObamaCare.

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 05:35 PM
So...most Americans think we need to fix the healthcare system, that's not news. That doesn't neccessarily mean they support ObamaCare.



...covering the uninsured, curbing costs, creating an insurance-purchasing exchange, and preventing insurers from dropping coverage or refusing to accept people with preexisting medical conditions. Majorities say employers should have to offer insurance and individuals should be required to have coverage

How is this substantially different from what is being proposed?

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 05:36 PM
How is this substantially different from what is being proposed?

It doesn't say "Coverage for illegals" :D

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:38 PM
How is this substantially different from what is being proposed?

Is there anyone that knows what actually is being proposed?

What bill are they working on this week?

Collier11
9/20/2009, 05:42 PM
It has been proven time and time again over the last couple of weeks that something like 60% of the country dont want his health care system, he needs to scrap it and start over. I never understand how the president on either side of the aisle can get an idea, realize it is not wanted, and do it anyway just cus it was their idea.

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 05:42 PM
Is there anyone that knows what actually is being proposed?


Fox News knows all about the mandatory euthanasia for veterans, old people, disabled kids, and Republicans, and I hear they're about to break the story on mandatory gay sex for the middle class any day.

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:43 PM
It has been proven time and time again over the last couple of weeks that something like 60% of the country dont want his health care system, he needs to scrap it and start over. I never understand how the president on either side of the aisle can get an idea, realize it is not wanted, and do it anyway just cus it was their idea.

Pay tention! He won the election, we're supposed to let him do whatever he wants now.

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:43 PM
Fox News knows all about the mandatory euthanasia for veterans, old people, disabled kids, and Republicans, and I hear they're about to break the story on mandatory gay sex for the middle class any day.

Keith, you OK?

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 05:44 PM
Is there anyone that knows what actually is being proposed?

What bill are they working on this week?

Ok, your right, since we have multiple bills, all with the same relative features, we must start over. But, wait, if no bill has been accepted, then what are we starting over? Are we starting the presidential election over? Are we starting the 20th century over? Oooooh, dibs on the invention of the iPod!

Collier11
9/20/2009, 05:45 PM
Fox News knows all about the mandatory euthanasia for veterans, old people, disabled kids, and Republicans, and I hear they're about to break the story on mandatory gay sex for the middle class any day.

Quit your fuggin cryin about Fox news, heaven forbid this country have ONE conservative news station, we all know who runs the rest of them. YOu are only threatened by them cus they reach the most people

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 05:47 PM
It has been proven time and time again over the last couple of weeks that something like 60% of the country dont want his health care system, he needs to scrap it and start over.

Since a majority of people support the basic tenets of the plan when you spell them out (see above), it's clear that the deathers are doing a good job of carrying water for the health insurance industry and screeching loudly.

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:48 PM
Quit your fuggin cryin about Fox news, heaven forbid this country have ONE conservative news station, we all know who runs the rest of them. YOu are only threatened by them cus they reach the most people

Yeah, but it's the nerve of them FOX bastages upsetting the proverbial applecart, that makes the libs so angry. :P

Collier11
9/20/2009, 05:50 PM
Obama works for the nation, the nation doesnt work for Obama

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 05:50 PM
Quit your fuggin cryin about Fox news, heaven forbid this country have ONE conservative news station

You mean they're really not FAIR AND BALANCED?


we all know who runs the rest of them

Big, conservative conglomerates interested in protecting the status quo?



YOu are only threatened by them cus they reach the most people

Link?

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:51 PM
Obama works for the nation, the nation doesnt work for Obama

Did you not see it posted that we elected him King, not just President. ;)

Collier11
9/20/2009, 05:53 PM
You mean they're really not FAIR AND BALANCED?

I think they are pretty fair, I would say alot moreso by a longshot than MSNBC

Big, conservative conglomerates interested in protecting the status quo?

CNN is not ran by conservatives nor is MSNBC


Link?

Look at the ratings my friend, or this link in the 1st paragraph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_news

Collier11
9/20/2009, 05:54 PM
for the record, CNN is #2

Curly Bill
9/20/2009, 05:56 PM
Later boys. I have to go run off some of the fat and calories from that mound of tacos I had for lunch.

...just doing my part. :D

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 05:56 PM
Quit your fuggin cryin about Fox news, heaven forbid this country have ONE conservative news station, we all know who runs the rest of them. YOu are only threatened by them cus they reach the most people

This ^^^^^

When the majority of people do something, I think it is safe to call that action mainstream. So, if Fox does truly reach the most people, then it is mainstream. And since it is a media outlet, then it is a Mainstream Media Outlet. And if is a mainstream media outlet, then EVERY CONSERVATIVE NEEDS TO STFU ABOUT THE LIBERAL MSM! Cause, you know, most people watch Fox news.

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 06:00 PM
for the record, CNN is #2

I guess Fox is the MSM now.

Collier11
9/20/2009, 06:04 PM
Never said they werent, all I said was that the libs need to quit whining about Fox, the only reason they whine about them is cus they are influencing the most people even though the libs have the majority when it comes to influence on news networks

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 06:11 PM
Never said they werent, all I said was that the libs need to quit whining about Fox, the only reason they whine about them is cus they are influencing the most people even though the libs have the majority when it comes to influence on news networks

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they are repeatedly and unabashedly full of **** (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2709951&postcount=2).

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 06:14 PM
Never said they werent, all I said was that the libs need to quit whining about Fox, the only reason they whine about them is cus they are influencing the most people even though the libs have the majority when it comes to influence on news networks

So if we had Conglomo-Media (NBC ABC CBS and CNN join to form one news network) Fox would reach and influence more people than Conglomo-Media would. So, republicans still would need to STFU about a liberal media bias. Right?

Collier11
9/20/2009, 06:18 PM
Well, depends on how you are defining that bias, Fox News is #1 in ratings but im sure if you combine the other liberal media they still reach more viewers as a total

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 06:20 PM
Well, depends on how you are defining that bias, Fox News is #1 in ratings but im sure if you combine the other liberal media they still reach more viewers as a total

So more people would choose Conglomo-Media over Fox. So, Fox caters to a minority.

Collier11
9/20/2009, 06:21 PM
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they are repeatedly and unabashedly full of **** (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2709951&postcount=2).

well isnt that convenient, the one conservative news station is FOS but the other liberal ones arent :rolleyes:

Collier11
9/20/2009, 06:22 PM
So more people would choose Conglomo-Media over Fox. So, Fox caters to a minority.

what point are you trying to prove here, as a station vs station competition Fox news dominates the ratings, if you were to combine the other news stations they would likey have more viewers than Fox, pretty basic stuff

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 06:25 PM
what point are you trying to prove here, as a station vs station competition Fox news dominates the ratings, if you were to combine the other news stations they would likey have more viewers than Fox, pretty basic stuff

Well, isn't it a shallow victory to tout being number one, when there are 5 other news channels competing for the same viewers?

Collier11
9/20/2009, 06:27 PM
im not touting anything, merely stating that Fox news is #1 after MD asked for proof that they had the most viewers, then pointing out that the libs need to quit whining about Fox news when they have the majority when it comes to the view point of the seperate news stations

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 06:30 PM
im not touting anything, merely stating that Fox news is #1 after MD asked for proof that they had the most viewers, then pointing out that the libs need to quit whining about Fox news when they have the majority when it comes to the view point of the seperate news stations

I guess what I am asking is, how can they influence the most people, if they cater to only a minority of people? I mean I get what you are saying, they have more viewers than any one other network, but if the other networks have the same message, wouldn't they influence the most people?

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 06:33 PM
well isnt that convenient, the one conservative news station is FOS but the other liberal ones arent :rolleyes:

I never said they weren't. I don't pay much attention to any of that ****. The only reason I know what nonsense Fox spews out is because it gets plastered all over here as if it's gospel.

Feel free to point out where CNN, MSNBC, or anybody else plays the "just sayin'..." game, "accidentally" labels wrong-doing politicians with a D instead of R, and constantly regurgitates lies.

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 06:35 PM
I guess what I am asking is, how can they influence the most people, if they cater to only a minority of people?

Maybe he's saying Fox News viewers are easily influenced. :P

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 06:36 PM
I never said they weren't. I don't pay much attention to any of that ****. The only reason I know what nonsense Fox spews out is because it gets plastered all over here as if it's gospel.

Feel free to point out where CNN, MSNBC, or anybody else plays the "just sayin'..." game, "accidentally" labels wrong-doing politicians with a D instead of R, and constantly regurgitates lies.

In their defense, they think that by showing a Obama speech the others are regurgitating lies.

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 06:39 PM
Maybe he's saying Fox News viewers are easily influenced. :P

No argument here. Did you know Saddam had WMDs?

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 06:52 PM
No argument here. Did you know Saddam had WMDs?

To be fair, the MSM were all in lockstep about that. I fell for that one, too. Silly me for thinking that the US government was more credible than Saddam Hussein. :mad:

Collier11
9/20/2009, 06:59 PM
No argument here. Did you know Saddam had WMDs?

too bad they only reported the facts that were presented to them by our CIA and FBI which ARE supposed to be trustworthy

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 07:00 PM
To be fair, the MSM were all in lockstep about that. I fell for that one, too. Silly me for thinking that the US government was more credible than Saddam Hussein. :mad:

No, I meant he still has them!!

But yeah, I went for that line too. Along with a few others...

http://thisishistorictimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/editorial_20090917.jpg

Sooner_Havok
9/20/2009, 07:00 PM
too bad they only reported the facts that were presented to them by our CIA and FBI which ARE supposed to be trustworthy

See MD's thread.

JLEW1818
9/20/2009, 07:23 PM
go check out how Obama is open to newspaper bailouts

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 07:28 PM
go check out how Obama is open to newspaper bailouts

Is it really so hard to paste a link, guys? You don't even have to use the [url] tags.

Tulsa_Fireman
9/20/2009, 08:31 PM
I have a big internet weiner!

Collier11
9/20/2009, 08:59 PM
but a tiny one in real life ;)





thats what CK tells me

mdklatt
9/20/2009, 09:08 PM
but a tiny one in real life

thats what CK tells me


Man, that just shows you how much I haven't been around lately. It used to be Pat and Howzit that were the subject of all the gay jokes.

Collier11
9/20/2009, 10:49 PM
lol

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 03:34 PM
What I love is how "Fox News' base viewers" whine, cry and complain about being downtrodden, ignored and "oppressed by the left" out of one side of the mouth, then thump their chests about how they are the best, #1 and represent the majority of "Real Americans" out of the other side of the mouth.

Please...is it awesome to be you or does it suck to be you.

Can't have it both ways. :pop:

Collier11
9/22/2009, 03:42 PM
Completely diff arguments LAS, the #1 ratings chest pumping is for the libs who say how bad Fox news sucks

The media unfairness is due to the majority of news stations being liberal

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 08:07 PM
Just because a ****load of people eat at McDonald's doesn't mean that it's the best restaurant in the world...or that its food a) doesn't suck and b) isn't really food.

Collier11
9/22/2009, 08:19 PM
and as I said in another thread, its actaully quite comical to consider ANY of the national news media "real news"

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 09:28 PM
CNN comes the closest. Closer than MSNBC, which is Leftist saccharine crap, and closer than FOX News, which is aptly nicknamed Faux News and is about 99% propaganda and 1% news.

And if you REALLY want a good perspective on what's going on in the US, get your news from foreign news outlets.

Collier11
9/22/2009, 10:41 PM
I hear Al Jazeera is a good one

JLEW1818
9/22/2009, 10:42 PM
I believe in death destruction chaos filth and greed

Collier11
9/22/2009, 10:44 PM
and thats just in your love life

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 11:01 PM
I hear Al Jazeera is a good one
By Most Accounts, There Are 195 Countries in the World. Many of those are allies of the United States. Some are neutral towards us both politically and in the opinions of their populace. Each of those nations have multiple daily/weeekly/national and local newspapers, magazines and news programs. And you choose Al Jazeera as the only one outside of the U.S. when I suggest learning about ourselves from the outside looking in.


Now who is being intellectually honest and who is just talking ****? ;)
A good source of multiple news sources is: http://newslink.org/


If you only listen to yourself from within, then you'll never learn anything. Oftentimes the best perspectives are given from the outside.

:pop:

Collier11
9/22/2009, 11:02 PM
I never listen to myself from within, only her

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 11:08 PM
Wait...you're in her or she's in you?

Dirty...

Collier11
9/22/2009, 11:09 PM
preferably the first, but sometimes you drink alot and...

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 11:12 PM
:les:THOSE AREN'T TWO PILLOWS!!!

LosAngelesSooner
9/22/2009, 11:18 PM
Quote of the day:

"I never gag." - Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) 09-22-09 08:24 PM

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/22/gop-rushes-to-defend-insu_n_295469.html)

I Am Right
9/23/2009, 09:53 AM
LIBERAL LIES ABOUT NATIONAL HEALTH CARE: BONUS JOE WILSON EDITION!
September 16, 2009


I'm trying to get to the next installment of my Pulitzer Prize-deserving series on liberal lies about national health care, but apparently liberals have decided to torture us by neurotically fixating on one lie.

After President Barack Obama gave a speech to a joint session of Congress last week passionately defending his national health care plan, the Democrats were agog at the brilliance of the speech. Nancy Pelosi was so thrilled, her expression almost changed.

But as Obama ticked off one demonstrably false claim after another -- eliciting 37 standing ovations from the Democrats in the audience -- America's greatest living statesman, Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., yelled out, "You lie!" in response to Obama's claim that the bill will not cover illegal aliens.

There are a number of theories about why America's greatest living statesman shouted "You lie!" at that juncture, but mine is that Wilson said it because Obama told a big, fat stinking lie.

Every single American knows it's a lie. But liberals take pleasure in repeating it -- and then condescendingly accusing anyone who doesn't accept their lie of being a toothless, illiterate racist.

Our politicians, media and courts have done everything they can to encourage illegal immigration, including obstinately refusing to enforce the border. While illegals streaming across the border generally aren't prosecuted, U.S. border patrol agents who naively try to guard the border often are.

Wise (and pregnant) Latinas dash across the border just in time to give birth at American hospitals -- medical services paid for by U.S. taxpayers -- gaining instant citizenship for their children, thereby entitling them to the entire Chinese menu of American welfare programs.

In 2004, 42.6 percent of all babies born at taxpayer expense in California were born to illegal aliens, according to a state report on Medi-Cal-funded deliveries. In hospitals close to the Mexican border, the figure is closer to 80 percent. Remember: This is before health care becomes "free" to every U.S. resident.

Hospitals across the country are going bankrupt because the federal government forces them to provide free services to illegals. This situation appears to have angered some segment of the population, in particular, American citizens who pay taxes to support the hospitals, but then are forced to spend hours writhing in pain in hospital waiting rooms.

With Americans in a boiling cauldron of rage about the government's impotent response to the tsunami of illegal immigrants, last year, both political parties ran candidates for president who favor amnesty for illegal immigrants.

And now Democrats have the audacity to tell us to our faces that national health care won't cover illegals. Not only that, but they tell us we must not be able to read if we think it does.

The crystalline example of this sneering liberal pomposity came from MSNBC's Rachel Maddow on Monday night:


"Reading the House health care bill would show you that (the bill does not cover illegal aliens). But you know, sometimes reading is hard. Fortunately, in the case of the health reform bill, there is a way to get all of the information that's in it without any of that pesky reading.

"It's called HearTheBill.org. Volunteer voiceover actors have donated their time to read all 1,017 pages of the house health care reform bill, HR-3200, the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009.

"So if you don't want to tire out your eyes, you could just listen to the thing that disproves (Rep. Wilson)."


Maddow then played an audio clip of Section 246 from the bill. This section, which liberals keep brandishing like a DNA-stained dress, states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

In other words, illegal aliens are excluded from precisely one section of the thousand-page, goodie-laden health care bill: Section 246, which distributes taxpayer-funded "affordability credits" to people who can't afford to pay for their own health care.

Even this minor restriction on taxpayer largesse to illegals will immediately be overturned by the courts. But the point is: Except for vouchers, the bill does not even pretend to exclude illegals from any part of national health care -- including the taxpayer-funded health insurance plan.

Moreover, liberals won't have to wait for some court to find that the words "nothing in this subtitle shall allow" means "this bill allows," because the bill contains no mechanism to ensure that the health care vouchers aren't going to illegal aliens. Nor does the bill prohibit the states from providing taxpayer-funded health care vouchers to illegals.

Democrats keep voting down Republican amendments that would insert these restrictions -- just before dashing to a TV studio to denounce anyone who says the health care bill covers illegal aliens.

It's as if we have a relative who shows up at every holiday gathering, gets bombed and totals the family car. At the 18th Christmas celebration, he's not only demanding a drink, but also calling us liars for saying he's already totaled 17 family cars. Gimme a gin and tonic and the car keys, you lying racist!

I think that's why America's greatest living statesman erupted with rage when Obama retailed this particular lie during his speech on health care.

It's bad enough to be lied to, but to be lied to by people who accuse us of not being able to read when the problem is that we can read -- and also can remember what happened at the last 17 family Christmases -- is more than even Mother Teresa could bear without a quick heckle.

COPYRIGHT 2009 ANN COULTER
DISTRIBUTED BY UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE
1130 Walnut, Kansas City, MO 64106

TopDawg
9/23/2009, 10:32 AM
Back when it happened, one of my really conservative friends who is very involved in politics posted on facebook about how happy he was that Wilson did what he did. He praised him for "telling it like it is."

Then about 2 hours later he posted one of those "fact check" articles stating something like "Obama doesn't let the facts get in the way." Of course, in the article, it said that the facts supported Obama, not Wilson, on the issue of illegal aliens.

So I asked him about it. After a few attempts to change the subject, he ended up admitting that what Obama said, in fact, wasn't a lie. But he still defended Wilson for doing what he did.

In short, he was glad that Wilson called Obama out for lying, even if Wilson had to lie to do it.

1890MilesToNorman
9/23/2009, 10:38 AM
In order to slow down the political threads during our bye week I have managed to get a game up between the Sooners and the Posse. The spread is currently OU - 150. This will be beer football meaning you can't run the ball more than 10 yards before downing a beer. Should be fun.

The posse team is old and decrepit but you should see the cheerleaders! :D

TopDawg
9/23/2009, 10:39 AM
That friends watches a lot of Fox News.

As does another acquaintance of mine. This acquaintance was recently lambasting Carter for saying that (and he used quotes) "many of the people who oppose the presidents policies are doing so because they are racists."

When I asked him to provide a link, he said that he heard it on Glenn Beck and Pat Campbell's shows. (For those that don't know, Campbell has a radio show in Tulsa. He is a guest on Fox News quite often.) He swore up and down that Carter actually said that. (Yes, I know that Carter did make the racial comment, but in everything I've seen his claim is aimed at people who have "intensely demonstrated animosity" or made personal attacks like comparing Obama to an animal, or Hitler. In fact, he's very careful to state that he's not talking about people who oppose Obama's policies.) Still, my friend insisted that Carter said it was about policy. Then he blamed it on the liberal media for covering it up because he couldn't find a transcript of Carter's comments anywhere. As if Glenn Beck doesn't have an intern who could transcribe EXACTLY what Carter said. The fact that Glenn Beck doesn't offer a transcript (if that is indeed the case) is very telling.

OklahomaTuba
9/23/2009, 10:44 AM
In short, he was glad that Wilson called Obama out for lying, even if Wilson had to lie to do it.Wilson didn't lie, Obama all but admitted he didn't the day after when he released this:


Today, for the first time as far as we know, the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange.

Here, the administration also concedes that hospitals would be compensated with public funds for the care of undocumented immigrants. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

So who is lying again????

OklahomaTuba
9/23/2009, 10:51 AM
That friends watches a lot of Fox News.

As does another acquaintance of mine. This acquaintance was recently lambasting Carter for saying that (and he used quotes) "many of the people who oppose the presidents policies are doing so because they are racists."

When I asked him to provide a link, he said that he heard it on Glenn Beck and Pat Campbell's shows. (For those that don't know, Campbell has a radio show in Tulsa. He is a guest on Fox News quite often.) He swore up and down that Carter actually said that. (Yes, I know that Carter did make the racial comment, but in everything I've seen his claim is aimed at people who have "intensely demonstrated animosity" or made personal attacks like comparing Obama to an animal, or Hitler. In fact, he's very careful to state that he's not talking about people who oppose Obama's policies.) Still, my friend insisted that Carter said it was about policy. Then he blamed it on the liberal media for covering it up because he couldn't find a transcript of Carter's comments anywhere. As if Glenn Beck doesn't have an intern who could transcribe EXACTLY what Carter said. The fact that Glenn Beck doesn't offer a transcript (if that is indeed the case) is very telling.
I think that an ex-President who actually was a pro-segragationist that says this is telling:


There is an inherent feeling among many in this country that an African-American should not be president,” Carter said in an interview with NBC’s Brian Williams.http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/09/22/clinton-parts-ways-with-carter-on-racism-charge/

And its a little difficult to give links on a radio show. Just saying..

MrJimBeam
9/23/2009, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=LosAngelesSooner;2712696

If you only listen to yourself from within, then you'll never learn anything. Oftentimes the best perspectives are given from the outside.

:pop:[/QUOTE]

Horse****. We were told that one of the reasons democracy wouldn't work in Iraq or Afghanistan is that we didn't understand these countries, cultures, or societies. Yet we're supposed to listen to France, the UK, Belgium, and Canada give us advice on how to fix our health insurance problem? They don't understand us anymore than we understand them.

And before you say it I've been to London and Paris. :texan:

TopDawg
9/23/2009, 12:12 PM
Wilson didn't lie, Obama all but admitted he didn't the day after when he released this:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

So who is lying again????

The part of the article you emphasized in bold is the part that applies to this bullet point (also in the article):


There would be no change in the law that requires emergency rooms to treat people who need emergency care, including undocumented immigrants. There is already a federal grant program that compensates states for emergency room costs associated with treatment of undocumented immigrants, a provision sponsored by a Republican lawmaker.

That is an existing law. Obama said: "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

He didn't propose a reform to add the law quoted above which states that "hospitals would be compensated with public funds for the care of undocumented immigrants."

TopDawg
9/23/2009, 12:17 PM
And its a little difficult to give links on a radio show. Just saying..

But it's not difficult to provide transcripts or links to your sources on your website.

My friend was claiming that the liberal media was hiding the transcripts from Glenn Beck. Unless Glenn Beck was AT Carter's speech, I have to presume that he read the quote, heard the quote or saw a video of Carter giving the quote. It's not too difficult to provide that to the audience.

TopDawg
9/23/2009, 12:24 PM
I think that an ex-President who actually was a pro-segragationist that says this is telling:

For what it's worth, I didn't agree with Carter's assessment. As I said in the thread dealing with this topic


Personally, I disagree with Carter on this. I think the personal attacks are fueled more by ignorance than by race. It just so happens that a lot of racists are also ignorant, so it's sometimes hard to see the difference.

pilobolus
9/23/2009, 12:27 PM
Insurance companies profit to the tune of $300 billion/year, while acting as nothing more than middle men who selectively deny benefits and coverage to enhance their bottom line.

Sooner_Havok
9/23/2009, 03:56 PM
LIBERAL LIES ABOUT NATIONAL HEALTH CARE: BONUS JOE WILSON EDITION!
September 16, 2009

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copy paste copy paste copy paste copy paste copy paste copy paste

COPYRIGHT 2009 ANN COULTER
DISTRIBUTED BY UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE
1130 Walnut, Kansas City, MO 64106

Couldn't agree more. :rolleyes:

LosAngelesSooner
9/23/2009, 05:55 PM
Horse****. We were told that one of the reasons democracy wouldn't work in Iraq or Afghanistan is that we didn't understand these countries, cultures, or societies. Yet we're supposed to listen to France, the UK, Belgium, and Canada give us advice on how to fix our health insurance problem? They don't understand us anymore than we understand them.

And before you say it I've been to London and Paris. :texan:Whoop de freakin' doo. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? :rolleyes:

Sooner_Havok
9/23/2009, 06:05 PM
Whoop de freakin' doo. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? :rolleyes:

I have no clue, but I am stunned to find out that Europe and the US are as different as the US and the middle east.

Here I was thinking that our society was an offshoot of Europe, only to find out we aren't. I wonder why we are lumped in with the Europeans though? I mean, they include them when they talk about the "west." But clearly our two cultures don't share the same history or religion.

LosAngelesSooner
9/23/2009, 06:11 PM
heh

SoonerKnight
9/23/2009, 08:12 PM
WOW! This thread took on life!

Sooner_Havok
9/23/2009, 08:14 PM
http://lordwhatsmymotivation.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/young-frankenstein.jpg

49r
9/24/2009, 11:14 AM
I hear Al Jazeera is a good one

Not that I really want to keep this thread alive - it probably should be let to die - but I just read an article in this month's Atlantic that got me to thinking about this point. I thought at least a few of the folks here may find interest in it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200910/al-jazeera


Al Jazeera is also endearing because it exudes hustle. It constantly gets scoops. It has had gritty, hands-on coverage across the greater Middle East, from Gaza to Beirut to Iraq, that other channels haven’t matched. Its camera crew, for example, was the first to beam pictures from Mingora, the main town of Swat, enabling Al Jazeera to confirm that the Pakistani military had, in fact, prevailed there over the Taliban.


In too many of its reports, the subliminal message appears to be that compromise should be the order of the day. According to Al Jazeera, the politically weak, merely by being so, are automatically in the right. A certain kind of moral equivalency is Al Jazeera’s lifeblood. The history of human suffering seemingly begins and ends with that of the Palestinians under Israeli occupation and that of the Iraqis under erstwhile American occupation.


Yet Al Jazeera is forgivable for its biases in a way that the BBC or CNN is not. In the case of Al Jazeera, news isn’t so much biased as honestly representative of a middle-of-the-road developing-world viewpoint. Where you stand depends upon where you sit. And if you sit in Doha or Mumbai or Nairobi, the world is going to look starkly different than if you sat in Washington or London, or St. Louis for that matter. By contrast, in the case of the BBC and CNN, you are explicitly aware that rather than presenting the world as they find it, those channels are taking a distinct side—the left-liberal internationalist side—in an honest and fundamental debate over foreign policy.

Bourbon St Sooner
9/24/2009, 12:53 PM
WOW! This thread took on life!

Dude, you basically raised the Batman signal to LAS and Tuba and you expected differently!

JLEW1818
9/24/2009, 12:57 PM
Maxine on POOP - This is the best analogy yet!



Leave it to Maxine to come up with a solution
For the mess that America is now in economically.


I bought a bird feeder. I hung
It on my back porch and filled
It with seed. What a beauty of
A bird feeder it was, as I filled it

lovingly with seed. Within a
Week we had hundreds of birds
Taking advantage of the
Continuous flow of free and
Easily accessible food.

But then the birds started
Building nests in the boards
Of the patio, above the table,
And next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was
Everywhere: on the patio tile,
The chairs, the table ..
Everywhere!

Then some of the birds
Turned mean.. They would
Dive bomb me and try to
Peck me even though I had
Fed them out of my own
Pocket.

And others birds were
Boisterous and loud. They
Sat on the feeder and
Squawked and screamed at
All hours of the day and night
And demanded that I fill it
When it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even
Sit on my own back porch
Anymore. So I took down the
Bird feeder and in three days
The birds were gone. I cleaned
Up their mess and took down
The many nests they had built
All over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like
It used to be .... Quiet, serene....
And no one demanding their
Rights to a free meal.

Now let's see.
Our government gives out
Free food, subsidized housing,
Free medical care and free
Education, and allows anyone
Born here to be an automatic
Citizen.

Then the illegals came by the
Tens of thousands. Suddenly
Our taxes went up to pay for
Free services; small apartments
Are housing 5 families; you
Have to wait 6 hours to be seen
By an emergency room doctor;
Your child's second grade class is
Behind other schools because
Over half the class doesn't speak
English.

Corn Flakes now come in a
Bilingual box; I have to
'press one ' to hear my bank
Talk to me in English, and
People waving flags other
Than 'Old Glory' are
Squawking and screaming
In the streets, demanding
More rights and free liberties.

Just my opinion, but maybe
it's time for the government
To take down the bird feeder.

If you agree, pass it on; if not,
Just continue cleaning up the poop

Tulsa_Fireman
9/24/2009, 02:42 PM
SHOOT THE BIRDS DUMAS

In other words...

SHOOT THE BIRDS DUMAS

JLEW1818
9/24/2009, 03:02 PM
lol, I'm all for that !!!

hellogoodbye
9/24/2009, 03:25 PM
There are many more issue that contribute, but immigration is a big factor. We can do a lot of things for our citizens (healthcare included), but until we define who is a citizen, and who isnt a citizen, then we might as well face the fact that we will eventually be the healthcare provider for the entire hemisphere (sans Canada). Our illegal population is about half the entire population of the UK. From a financial management perspective, that is most def apples to oranges.

Tulsa_Fireman
9/24/2009, 03:37 PM
Damn messicans.

Sooner_Havok
9/24/2009, 03:39 PM
Damn messicans.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/Ka-zu-ya/tookourjobs.jpg

SoonerKnight
9/25/2009, 01:08 AM
Dude, you basically raised the Batman signal to LAS and Tuba and you expected differently!

Actually, I was just bored! I didn't think about that! :D

SoonerKnight
9/25/2009, 11:22 PM
flicker, flicker, ..................

Whet
9/25/2009, 11:36 PM
Here is the bill passed by the House: H.R. 3200 (http://www.turnto23.com/download/2009/0828/20605592.pdf) Now, compare this bill with what Obama or the other Dems have claimed what is, or not in it.

This is scary piece of legislation.

SoonerKnight
9/26/2009, 06:27 PM
what a pile of dog ****! Wow! It reads like all the exclusions in my health benefits plan. I hate that crap when they keep referring to another section seems to just throw you off.

SoonerKnight
9/30/2009, 08:42 PM
heh!

I Am Right
10/19/2009, 05:26 PM
"Florida plan advises hospitals to bar some patients in event of severe flu pandemic
Outbreak would limit some hospital care"

Death panels?

Sooner_Havok
10/19/2009, 05:35 PM
"Florida plan advises hospitals to bar some patients in event of severe flu pandemic
Outbreak would limit some hospital care"

Death panels?

OMFG!!! And we haven't even changed the system yet. S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sooner_Havok
10/20/2009, 04:40 PM
heh (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101902451.html?hpid=topnews)

Fraggle145
10/20/2009, 05:47 PM
DIRTY LIBERAL MSM!!! LIES!!![hairGel]

Sooner_Havok
10/20/2009, 05:49 PM
DIRTY LIBERAL MSM!!! LIES!!![hairGel]

heh, stupid main stream population

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 03:33 PM
This is not an argument, nor should it be construed as such. It is simply a question that I would like answered.

The rest of the civilized world has some form of national health care. America is the only one left that does not. Are we right, or is everyone else?

Again, this is not an argument, so please just give your opinion. Are we right, or is the rest of the civilized world right? If you would just like to attack the question without answering it, please move along.

Collier11
10/21/2009, 03:39 PM
I can see very few benefits of any other countries state ran health care and I certainly dont see any benefits of the government controlling my personal well being when it comes to getting treatment and care

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 03:46 PM
I can see very few benefits of any other countries state ran health care and I certainly dont see any benefits of the government controlling my personal well being when it comes to getting treatment and care

So I am going to take that as a "We are right."

Thank you.

SCOUT
10/21/2009, 03:55 PM
In the Fox News thread, Havok recommended reading digg.com so I checked it out. On the front page was this article and it seems relevant to this thread.


Thousands of breast cancer sufferers to be denied life extending drug
Breast cancer sufferers at the end of their lives should be denied a new drug that could give them three extra months, the NHS rationing body has recommended.

By Rebecca Smith, Medical Editor
Published: 1:36PM BST 21 Oct 2009

Breast cancers sufferers to be denied drug that may extend their lives Photo: GETTY
The drug Tyverb, is licensed for women with breast cancer that has spread and who have a form of the disease known as HER2 positive.
It is designed to be taken after Herceptin has stopped working for these patients and trials have suggested it may prolong their lives by around three months.

However the National Institute for health and Clinical Excellence has said in draft guidance that Tyverb, also called lapatinib is not a cost effective use of NHS funds because the evidence to support the claims of prolonging life is not robust.

It costs around £25,000 per patient per year.

Makers of the drug, GlaxoSmithKline, said unless the decision is reversed 2,000 women a year in England and Wales will be denied the treatment.
Glaxo had offered to pay for the first treatments that patients receive.
Simon Jose, General Manager, GSK UK said: “NICE developed additional criteria specifically to help secure greater patient access to new treatments that offer precious extra time at the end of life.

"It is disappointing that, despite acknowledging Tyverb meets these criteria and GSK offering to bear the cost of lapatinib for up to 12 weeks, NICE is still proposing to reject lapatinib.

"We will continue to offer our patient access programme to individual NHS Trusts to ensure patients have access to Tyverb.”
Dr Alison Jones, Medical Oncologist at the University College London Hospital and the Royal Free Hospital commented: “I am disappointed for all the women who would have benefited from lapatinib on the NHS. I have witnessed myself that lapatinib can extend the lives of these women. We are now left with very few effective treatment options in cases where Herceptin has stopped working.”

Dr Gillian Leng, NICE Deputy Chief Executive said: “The Appraisal Committee considered the updated economic evaluation presented by the manufacturer but was not persuaded that the adjusted estimates of overall survival presented were robust. "The committee therefore concluded lapatinib is not a cost-effective use of NHS resources.
“Although lapatinib is not a cure and only offers a few weeks' additional survival benefit, it is an innovative technology that could potentially help patients with brain metastases which is why we have recommended this treatment when it is provided as part of clinical trials. We hope this additional research will aid us in subsequent reviews."
The draft guidance is available for consultation until Novembr 11th and final guidance is due to be issued to the NHS next year.

Collier11
10/21/2009, 03:55 PM
Im not attacking anything or just dismissing it, I just dont see a benefit in the government getting involved, when has that ever worked?

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:05 PM
In the Fox News thread, Havok recommended reading digg.com so I checked it out. On the front page was this article and it seems relevant to this thread.

See, good place for news.

Found this one a few weeks back.


Surrounded by supporters, Hilda Sarkisyan marched into Cigna Corp.’s Philadelphia headquarters on a chilly fall day, 10 months after the company refused to pay for a liver transplant for her daughter.

"You guys killed my daughter," the diminutive San Fernando Valley real estate agent declared at the lobby security desk. "I want an apology."

What she got was something quite different.

Cigna employees, looking down into the atrium lobby from a balcony above, began heckling her, she said, with one of them giving her "the finger."

Sarkisyan walked out, stunned and hurt.

"They showed me their true colors," she said. "Shame on them."

Cigna later apologized for the 2008 incident, but it has now become -- unintentionally -- the central element of a lawsuit Sarkisyan and her husband, Grigor, are pressing against the health insurer.

The suit began as a wrongful-death complaint, with the couple contending that Cigna's refusal to cover the transplant led to Nataline's death Dec. 20, 2007, in a case that drew national media attention.

A Los Angeles judge threw out the wrongful-death complaint, saying it was barred by a 1987 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that shields employer-paid healthcare plans from damages over their coverage decisions.

But U.S. District Judge Gary Allen Feess said the Sarkisyans could pursue damages for any emotional distress caused by the Philadelphia incident.

The ruling was bittersweet for the Sarkisyans and patient advocates, who say it points to the need for federal legislation to allow people to sue health insurers for the life-or-death decisions they make.

"They kill a beautiful 17-year-old girl, and I get to go after them for a finger? That's sick," Hilda Sarkisyan said.

The Sarkisyans contend that Cigna improperly refused the transplant that Nataline's UCLA physicians said at the time was urgently needed to save her life, and that the company reflexively issued a denial letter without looking into the specific circumstances.

The company said at the time that, for Nataline, the operation would have been experimental and was not covered. Nine days later, amid a storm of publicity, Cigna agreed to cover the transplant.

It was too late. Nataline died hours later.

"It was the worst thing in life," Hilda Sarkisyan said in a recent interview.

Mark Geragos, the high-profile trial lawyer who helped the family make its pleas to Cigna while Nataline was alive, filed the wrongful-death suit on the family's behalf last year.

"If you don't sue, you can't make changes," Hilda Sarkisyan said. "It's not about the money. It's about the principle. They are just going to keep denying people care if we don't stop them."

Cigna said the dismissal of the wrongful-death case in Aprilshowed that the court "agreed with our position that the Sarkisyans' claims regarding Cigna's decision making were without merit."

In fact, the court did not consider the merits of the family's wrongful-death claims. Instead, it decided those claims could not be heard.

Judge Feess cited rulings by the Supreme Court and others interpreting 1974's Employee Retirement Income Security Act, or ERISA, which governs employee retirement funds and benefit plans.

Under ERISA, the courts have said, the only monetary damages that beneficiaries of workplace health plans can sue for is the cost of the treatment of service in dispute.

The cost of mounting a lawsuit often far exceeds the cost of the treatment in question, patient lawyer Scott Glovsky said. As a result, few lawyers take them on. That has in effect shut the courthouse doors on most treatment coverage disputes involving workplace health plans, which are the source of medical insurance for 132 million workers and dependents.

"ERISA is a license to kill," Glovsky said. "The companies know that they can deny treatment with the sick or dead member having virtually no recourse."

Wendell Potter, a Cigna spokesman who quit after handling the publicity surrounding the Sarkisyan case, agreed.

"HMOs and insurers are largely free to deny access to care without fear of reprisal or financial consequences," Potter said in a speech to the Civil Justice Foundation in San Francisco.

But without these limits, an industry spokesman said, suits against health insurers could be disastrous for consumers.

"It will bankrupt these plans, and employers would no longer be able to offer coverage," said Robert Zirkelbach, a spokesman for America's Health Insurance Plans.

With Congress considering a healthcare overhaul -- including a requirement that individuals buy health insurance -- Potter, the Sarkisyans and their supporters want lawmakers to undo the high court's 1987 ERISA ruling.

Santa Monica-based Consumer Watchdog sent a letter to key congressional leaders urging them to undo the ERISA ruling, and group President Jamie Court said Nataline's case shows why such a move is crucial to any healthcare reform.

"If the insurer decides they don't want to pay for the treatment because they can save a lot of money, there is not a dime available in damages if the person dies or is injured," Court said. "It's cheaper to kill you. If you die, you can't go to court."

It's not the first time this aspect of ERISA has come under fire. The late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) led an unsuccessful effort in 2001 to take away the protection for health insurers.

"Patients should have the right to hold their HMO accountable in court when its negligence causes the injury or death of a patient," Kennedy told Senate colleagues. "No other industry in America enjoys immunity from accountability for its actions, and the insurance industry does not deserve it either."

"I want to get rid of this ERISA law," Hilda Sarkisyan said, "and replace it with Nataline's law."

Meanwhile, the Sarkisyans filed a suit this month over the lobby incident. Cigna said in a statement that the case was "without merit" and that the company expected to prevail.

About a month after the incident, the Sarkisyans received a letter of apology from a Cigna executive.

"I was very disappointed to learn of the behavior of one of our employees when you were at our company's headquarters," wrote John M. Murabito, executive vice president for human resources.

"I sincerely regret this individual's offensive and inappropriate action," he continued. "Please know that he did not represent the views of our company or the views of other employees who work here. We deeply empathize with you and wish you peace and comfort in your loss."

pretty sick when people get to decide whether you get to live or die based on the bottom line. Even more sickening when it happens in the country with the best health care in the world...:(

SCOUT
10/21/2009, 04:08 PM
It is a pretty cool site, but there is a lot of...other stuff on there :)

So, is it better to have a "rationing body" make that decision rather than a carrier?

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:09 PM
Im not attacking anything or just dismissing it, I just dont see a benefit in the government getting involved, when has that ever worked?

That is fine. You think that America is right, and I respect you for that. I don't agree, but I can respect your opinion.

Soonerwake
10/21/2009, 04:11 PM
I'm sure someone will pull some stats out of their a** to refute me, but the people I know that are part of the "Millions of Unisured" are there by choice. Just not a priority to have some health coverage. I would sure like to have a couple of hundred extra every month, but not at the expense of being able to take my kids to the doctor.

Problem is that they are also the ones that are not ever sick. If they all were to purchase insurance, get on a plan, the risk is spread out more evenly and rates go down.

My $.02.

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:13 PM
It is a pretty cool site, but there is a lot of...other stuff on there :)

So, is it better to have a "rationing body" make that decision rather than a carrier?

Does it matter? People are going to die either way.

From the story you quoted:


Although lapatinib is not a cure and only offers a few weeks' additional survival benefit, it is an innovative technology that could potentially help patients with brain metastases which is why we have recommended this treatment when it is provided as part of clinical trials. We hope this additional research will aid us in subsequent reviews."
The draft guidance is available for consultation until Novembr 11th and final guidance is due to be issued to the NHS next year.

At least on that one we have life being extended for a few weeks, not life being saved, as in the one I read.



Also, there is A LOT of stuff on digg! I do like reddit better, but I still love digg.

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:15 PM
I'm sure someone will pull some stats out of their a** to refute me, but the people I know that are part of the "Millions of Unisured" are there by choice. Just not a priority to have some health coverage. I would sure like to have a couple of hundred extra every month, but not at the expense of being able to take my kids to the doctor.

Problem is that they are also the ones that are not ever sick. If they all were to purchase insurance, get on a plan, the risk is spread out more evenly and rates go down.

My $.02.

Insurance is not an option for me right now. Well, that may not be true. I had a choice between housing and food, and insurance. I think my chances of survival are better choosing food and roof though.

SCOUT
10/21/2009, 04:17 PM
Does it matter? People are going to die either way.

At least on that one we have life being extended for a few weeks, not life being saved, as in the one I read.


But the one you quoted was a circumstance where a carrier made a decision that was wrong, they apologized for it and there is likely going to be some sort of recourse for the grieving family.

When you have a group defined as a "rationing body" it surely seems like it is a general practice rather than a exception. Additionally, good luck having any recourse against the government if your care, or that of a loved one, is being rationed.

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:20 PM
But the one you quoted was a circumstance where a carrier made a decision that was wrong, they apologized for it and there is likely going to be some sort of recourse for the grieving family.

When you have a group defined as a "rationing body" it surely seems like it is a general practice rather than a exception. Additionally, good luck having any recourse against the government if your care, or that of a loved one, is being rationed.

Read the article again. The family has no recourse. It's the law. The insurer gets to say "oops, our bad" and move on.

Collier11
10/21/2009, 04:22 PM
That is fine. You think that America is right, and I respect you for that. I don't agree, but I can respect your opinion.

Not saying that either, I think health care needs to be fixed but I just dont agree that government involvment would do any good at all

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:22 PM
Guess it comes down to, who can the people hold more accountable? Their elected politicians or the mega corporations?

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:24 PM
Not saying that either, I think health care needs to be fixed but I just dont agree that government involvment would do any good at all

So nobody is right?

Collier11
10/21/2009, 04:24 PM
Insurance is not an option for me right now. Well, that may not be true. I had a choice between housing and food, and insurance. I think my chances of survival are better choosing food and roof though.

I get free medical and dental thru the Choctaw Indian Tribe, why should I be forced to purchase insurance?

I Am Right
10/21/2009, 04:25 PM
So I am going to take that as a "We are right."

Thank you.

Always

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:26 PM
I get free medical and dental thru the Choctaw Indian Tribe, why should I be forced to purchase insurance?

I agree. My reading of the bills was that "You had to have insurance" not "You have to buy it"

Otherwise, wouldn't companies basically get a free ride? They could just say, you have to buy it, so if we give it to you, you aren't buying it.

I Am Right
10/21/2009, 04:28 PM
Does this mean you have to pay for my glasses also?

Soonerwake
10/21/2009, 04:36 PM
Insurance is not an option for me right now. Well, that may not be true. I had a choice between housing and food, and insurance. I think my chances of survival are better choosing food and roof though.

Don't know your situation, but I would guess that you, like many of us, make choices about money every day. Where we live, what we eat, etc. is all about choices. Most of us want to live in fair to good housing, eat acceptable food, blah, blah....

Insurance is not deemed a necessity until it is needed. There are insurance plans of all types, cheap, expensive, individual, group, etc. Everyone can afford some insurance. It just may not be preferable or may affect other choices.

Good luck to ya, Havok.

And no, I don't sell insurance... :D

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:40 PM
Don't know your situation, but I would guess that you, like many of us, make choices about money every day. Where we live, what we eat, etc. is all about choices. Most of us want to live in fair to good housing, eat acceptable food, blah, blah....

Insurance is not deemed a necessity until it is needed. There are insurance plans of all types, cheap, expensive, individual, group, etc. Everyone can afford some insurance. It just may not be preferable or may affect other choices.

Good luck to ya, Havok.

And no, I don't sell insurance... :D

Na, I am on a fixed income. My option was live close to school or pay for gas, car maintenance, and parking. I chose one of the cheapest closest options.

After housing, I barely have enough to buy food. But with any luck I will get out of here WAY better off than I was going in. Admittedly I made a choice. I chose more education. I placed my bets on not getting sick for 3 years. If I do get sick...well I am totally screwed at this point.

I Am Right
10/21/2009, 04:40 PM
Do you mean, I have to spend my money on health insurance. Who is going to pay for my 22" rims, Flat screed HD TV's and iphones?

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:43 PM
Do you mean, I have to spend my money on health insurance. Who is going to pay for my 22" rims, Flat screed HD TV's and iphones?

Oh yeah, and I bought 22s for my bike. Thanks man, forgot about that. :rolleyes:

Soonerwake
10/21/2009, 04:48 PM
Na, I am on a fixed income. My option was live close to school or pay for gas, car maintenance, and parking. I chose one of the cheapest closest options.

After housing, I barely have enough to buy food. But with any luck I will get out of here WAY better off than I was going in. Admittedly I made a choice. I chose more education. I placed my bets on not getting sick for 3 years. If I do get sick...well I am totally screwed at this point.

You will have plenty of time to pay for insurance when the education is over. Or, you could just join the Choctaw Indian Tribe. I hear they are giving free stuff away... :D

IAR - I hear Texas players have extra TV's they are not using... So pony up for some insurance like the rest of us. :D

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 04:58 PM
You will have plenty of time to pay for insurance when the education is over. Or, you could just join the Choctaw Indian Tribe. I hear they are giving free stuff away... :D

IAR - I hear Texas players have extra TV's they are not using... So pony up for some insurance like the rest of us. :D

heh. BTW, your Choctaw stuff must be better than the stuff my old lady gets. Course Choctaws got Choctaw money, Caddo got hobo money.

And when I get out of here, I plan on getting insurance one way or another. I miss that stuff. Felt bad my whole life, then got insurance and found out I was allergic to just about everything. Man I can't wait to get back my medication.

SCOUT
10/21/2009, 05:07 PM
Read the article again. The family has no recourse. It's the law. The insurer gets to say "oops, our bad" and move on.

They are now suing for emotional damages because of their treatment by Cigna.

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 05:08 PM
They are now suing for emotional damages because of their treatment by Cigna.

The CIGNA employees flipped them off during a protest. If not for that, they would have no case.

I Am Right
10/21/2009, 06:58 PM
Free Speech.

Sooner_Havok
10/21/2009, 08:11 PM
Super-Retardo