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JohnnyMack
9/16/2009, 10:30 PM
Here's a rough outline of the plan that was released earlier today:


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1924252,00.html

How much does the bill cost, and will it add to the deficit?
In a press release accompanying the release of the bill, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus says the legislation would cost $856 billion over 10 years and would not increase the deficit. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, which put the bill's total cost at a lower $774 billion, says the bill would actually reduce the deficit by $49 billion between 2010 and 2019.

Is there a public option?
No. As an alternative to the controversial government-run health option, the bill, beginning in 2012, would provide $6 billion in federal funding to states or groups of states to set up nonprofit, consumer-owned and -operated health-insurance cooperatives. These cooperatives would be unaffiliated with any government entity and would be self-insured — meaning cooperatives would collect premiums from members and pay out claims from those funds. Cooperative insurance plans would be available to consumers through the state exchanges that are to be set up as part of the reform plan.

How would the exchanges work?
By 2010, each state would be required to establish an exchange, or marketplace, where insurance will be sold. Initially, only individuals and businesses with 50 or fewer employees would be eligible to shop in the exchanges, but by 2017, states would have to develop plans to phase in larger employers. By 2022, all businesses would be eligible to purchase coverage through the exchanges.
(See pictures of the Cleveland Clinic's famous approach to health-care.)

Insurance plans for sale in the exchanges would be vetted by the Federal Government to meet minimum standards for coverage. There would be a range of plans offered in the exchanges: bronze, silver, gold and platinum. Bronze plans would be the cheapest, offering the least amount of coverage; platinum plans, the most expensive, offering the most coverage.

"All plans must provide preventive and primary care, emergency services, hospitalization, physician services, outpatient services, day surgery and related anesthesia, diagnostic imaging and screenings (including X-rays), maternity and newborn care, pediatric services (including dental and vision), medical/surgical care, prescription drugs, radiation and chemotherapy, and mental health and substance abuse services ... In addition, plans could charge no cost-sharing (e.g., deductibles, copayments) ... for preventive care services ... Plans could also not include lifetime limits on coverage or annual limits on any benefits."

The exchange would also offer a high-deductible plan for adults under 25. This plan would be cheaper than the bronze plan and is referred to as a "young invincible" policy.

What new restrictions would be placed on the private health-insurance plans?
Insurers would no longer be able to exclude applicants based on pre-existing conditions or charge higher premiums for those with pre-existing conditions. Insurers would have to offer coverage to anyone who applies for it and would be allowed to adjust premium rates only based on tobacco use, age, family size and geographic location.

Tobacco users could be charged 1½ times what non–tobacco users are charged. The oldest Americans buying private insurance could be charged five times what youngest Americans are charged. And insurers would be banned from capping the amount they pay out on a policy annually.

Would there be an individual mandate?
Yes. Beginning in 2013, individuals would be required to have health insurance. Individuals and families who do not have insurance for more than three months in a given year would be subject to an annual excise tax of $750 and $1,500, respectively, if their income is below 300% of the federal poverty line (or $66,150 for a family of four). Tax penalties for individuals and families with incomes above that would be $950 and $3,800. The excise tax would be waived for Native Americans and individuals and families whose health-insurance costs would be more than 10% of their annual income.

Would there be an employer mandate?
No. But employers would have to pay an annual tax penalty if any of their workers receive subsidies to purchase insurance through the exchanges. The tax penalty assessed to the employer would be either $400 per worker (regardless of how many workers receive subsidies) or the average cost of subsidies in a given year multiplied by the number of workers receiving them in the company — whichever is lower. (Businesses with fewer than 50 employees would be exempt from this tax.)

"For example, Employer A, who does not offer health coverage, has 100 employees, 30 of whom receive a tax credit for enrolling in a state exchange offered plan. If the flat dollar amount set by the Secretary of HHS for that year is $3,000, Employer A should owe $90,000. Since the maximum amount an employer must pay per year is limited to $400 multiplied by the total number of employees (for Employer A, 100), however, Employer A must pay only $40,000 (the lesser of the $40,000 maximum and the $90,000 calculated fee)."

Plus, if employers have 200 or more employees and offer health-insurance coverage, they would automatically have to enroll workers, although workers could opt out of coverage if they prove they have insurance from another source.

What kind of subsidies would the government offer to low-income Americans and small businesses to help them buy insurance?
Starting in 2013, the Federal Government would offer a refundable tax credit to low- and middle-income individuals and families who purchase certain policies through the state exchanges. The credit would be available to individuals and families who earn up to 300% of the federal poverty level, which for a family of four would be about $66,000 in 2009. It would be provided on a sliding scale, with the level of credit "based on the percentage of income the cost of premiums [not including deductibles or copays] represents, rising from 3% of income for those at 100% of poverty to 13% of income for those at 300% of poverty." Individuals earning between 300% and 400% of the poverty level would be eligible for a credit after their share of the premium hits a maximum of 13% of income. The credits would be paid directly to insurers through the exchange, with policyholders paying the remaining amount.

Qualifying small businesses that offer their employees health insurance would be eligible for a tax credit to offset their contribution to the costs of the policies. An employer with up to 25 full-time employees whose average annual wages are no more than $40,000 would have access to some part of the credit, though only companies with no more than 10 employees who earn an average of less than $20,000 a year would be eligible for the full credit. In 2011 and 2012, the full credit would be up to 35% of a small business's contribution, and starting in 2013, employers that purchase their policies through the state exchanges could claim a tax credit for two years of up to 50% of their contribution.

Would the health-care industry have to pay for the cost of reform?
Beginning in 2010, insurance companies would have to pay an annual total of $6 billion; pharmaceutical companies, $2.3 billion; medical-device makers, $4 billion; clinical laboratories, $750 million. The amount each individual company pays would depend on their market share.

Pharmaceutical companies would also, per an agreement struck with the Obama Administration earlier this year, cut name-brand-drug costs 50% for Medicare Part D recipients stuck in the "doughnut hole," the gap in prescription-drug coverage that exists once seniors' drug costs for the year exceed a certain amount ($2,700 in 2009). This provision would go into effect in 2010 and is expected to cost drugmakers $80 billion over 10 years. (Part D beneficiaries who get low-income subsidies, are enrolled in a retiree drug plan or earn more than $85,000 would not be eligible for the discount.)

Would "gold-plated" Cadillac plans be taxed?
Yes, although technically insurers would be the ones taxed. Beginning in 2013, they would pay a 35% excise tax on any plans they sell that cost more than $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for families. But even though insurers would be paying, they would almost certainly pass along this extra cost to consumers. Nearly all of these so-called Cadillac plans are sold through employer-based coverage, often to union workers and municipal employees.

To make employer-based coverage more transparent, the bill would also require that W-2 forms list the total cost of premiums paid by employers.

Is medical-malpractice reform addressed?
The Senate Finance Committee does not have jurisdiction over malpractice law, but the committee's bill includes a section expressing support for malpractice reform. The section specifically endorses reform approaches like those expressed by President Obama: funding for pilot programs to study ways to reform the malpractice system without capping malpractice awards.

How would the Medicaid program be affected?
Beginning in 2014, eligibility for Medicaid would be raised to individuals earning up to 133% of the federal poverty line — $14,400 for an individual; $30,000 a year for a family of four. Childless adults, currently excluded from Medicaid, would be eligible.

Would federal funds be used to finance abortions?
Those eligible for federal subsidies to purchase insurance through exchanges would be able to choose from at least one plan that covers abortions beyond those in the case of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother (the exceptions that Medicaid and other federal programs currently allow) and one that doesn't. Those private plans that do offer the services would have to segregate funds internally to make sure that only individual premiums, and not federal subsidies, pay for actual abortion services.

In the health-insurance cooperatives, coverage for abortion services would not be explicitly prohibited. Consumers owning and operating the cooperatives would be able to decide if they want to cover abortion.

Would illegal immigrants be allowed to participate in any new health-insurance system established in the bill?
No. The bill would require individuals and families eligible for subsidies to prove their citizenship by providing their names, Social Security numbers and dates of birth. Those who cannot prove their citizenship would not be allowed to purchase insurance through the exchanges, with or without subsidies.

Discuss.

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:34 PM
Not a fan of requiring folks to have health insurance. It still is somewhat a free country...

...right :confused:

Frozen Sooner
9/16/2009, 10:34 PM
The Senate Finance Committee does not have jurisdiction over malpractice law, but the committee's bill includes a section expressing support for malpractice reform.

This is a good point that was surprisingly not discussed in the other thread. Tort law is a state issue.

Sooner_Havok
9/16/2009, 10:35 PM
Not a fan of requiring folks to have health insurance. It still is somewhat a free country...

...right :confused:

IDK, they make me have car insurance...

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:36 PM
IDK, they make me have car insurance...

Not if you choose not to drive.

Sooner_Havok
9/16/2009, 10:37 PM
Not if you choose not to drive.

Yeah, but you could always choose not to live :D

Sooner_Havok
9/16/2009, 10:39 PM
Plan is a joke though. Cereal.

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:39 PM
Yeah, but you could always choose not to live :D


...or I could just tell the government to bite me! :D


Oh wait! I have a good enough job that I already have health insurance. You'd think I planned it that way or something. ;)

SicEmBaylor
9/16/2009, 10:39 PM
This is a good point that was surprisingly not discussed in the other thread. Tort law is a state issue.

Give it time. ;)

Frozen Sooner
9/16/2009, 10:42 PM
Give it time. ;)

I'm sure someone will eventually try to shoehorn it into the general welfare clause...

JohnnyMack
9/16/2009, 10:44 PM
Doesn't fully explain who's gonna pay for all of this of course. I'm thinking me, for starters. It does mention that the Insurance and drug companies will kick in some cash, but I imagine taxes for the middle class and up will be saddled with most of the cost, no?

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:46 PM
Doesn't fully explain who's gonna pay for all of this of course. I'm thinking me, for starters. It does mention that the Insurance and drug companies will kick in some cash, but I imagine taxes for the middle class and up will be saddled with most of the cost, no?

Pay tention JM!!!

We're gonna provide more health coverage, to more people, and we're going to do it with less money. :rolleyes: :P :D

tommieharris91
9/16/2009, 10:48 PM
Doesn't fully explain who's gonna pay for all of this of course. I'm thinking me, for starters. It does mention that the Insurance and drug companies will kick in some cash, but I imagine taxes for the middle class and up will be saddled with most of the cost, no?

My guess was China.

Frozen Sooner
9/16/2009, 10:49 PM
Because spending more money would have automatically meant better service...

...right

The corollary of this is that sometimes you can improve service for the same or less money, right?

Sooner_Havok
9/16/2009, 10:50 PM
...or I could just tell the government to bite me! :D


Oh wait! I have a good enough job that I already have health insurance. You'd think I planned it that way or something. ;)

I want to tell the government to bite me on a lot of stuff:

DON'T MAKE ME BUY CAR INSURANCE!! I can save money to pay for damages, and still save more money than I have to pay those bastards at State Farm!

ELIMINATE THE FCC!!! If parents are to afraid there precious little artifact children will hear a swear or see a booby, don't let them watch TV, or make sure you know what they are watching! Better yet, don't buy a damn TV, problem solved. I like boobies and swears!

DON'T MAKE ME PAY SOCIAL SECURITY!!! It won't be there for me, so why the hell should I care? Get rid of it, and if the old codgers didn't save enough money to live on, tough ****!

DON'T MAKE ME PAY FOR MEDICARE/MEDICAID! See above.

DON'T TAX MY GAS!!! Truckers do way more damage to the road than I do, why the hell do I pay the same amount per mile as they do?

(Tell me where the following quote is from for spek)

**** you, I'm going to Guam!

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:51 PM
The corollary of this is that sometimes you can improve service for the same or less money, right?

You mean like ObamaCare?

Yup, not gonna sucker me into that.

Nice try though. ;)

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:53 PM
I want to tell the government to bite me on a lot of stuff:

DON'T MAKE ME BUY CAR INSURANCE!! I can save money to pay for damages, and still save more money than I have to pay those bastards at State Farm!

ELIMINATE THE FCC!!! If parents are to afraid there precious little artifact children will hear a swear or see a booby, don't let them watch TV, or make sure you know what they are watching! Better yet, don't buy a damn TV, problem solved. I like boobies and swears!

DON'T MAKE ME PAY SOCIAL SECURITY!!! It won't be there for me, so why the hell should I care? Get rid of it, and if the old codgers didn't save enough money to live on, tough ****!

DON'T MAKE ME PAY FOR MEDICARE/MEDICAID! See above.

DON'T TAX MY GAS!!! Truckers do way more damage to the road than I do, why the hell do I pay the same amount per mile as they do?

(Tell me where the following quote is from for spek)

**** you, I'm going to Guam!

I'm with ya on telling the govt. to shove off.

...and unless I were to google it I don't know who to credit with that quote. :O

Sooner_Havok
9/16/2009, 10:54 PM
I'm with ya on telling the govt. to shove off.

...and unless I were to google it I don't know who to credit with that quote. :O

That doesn't surprise me, and that isn't a dig. You are not the type of person I could see watching that movie. :D

Frozen Sooner
9/16/2009, 10:54 PM
Just sayin'. You can't logically hold the position that throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically improve service while simultaneously dismissing the idea that service can improve while costs decrease. Unless, I guess, you think that there's no improvement to be made.

Frozen Sooner
9/16/2009, 10:55 PM
And yeah, I don't think CB would be much into that one. In fact, I had to Google it-I've never seen it.

SicEmBaylor
9/16/2009, 10:56 PM
I'm sure someone will eventually try to shoehorn it into the general welfare clause...

Damned straight. You are learning something at law school. ;)

Curly Bill
9/16/2009, 10:57 PM
Just sayin'. You can't logically hold the position that throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically improve service while simultaneously dismissing the idea that service can improve while costs decrease. Unless, I guess, you think that there's no improvement to be made.

I think it unlikely that a government run health plan would achieve the efficiency that Brack has promised.

I think it unlikely that a government run anything would even approach what we might consider efficiency.

OklahomaTuba
9/17/2009, 08:55 AM
Since Obama promised not to raise taxes on the middle class, i'm guessing this is DOA...

Dem Senator Warns of 'Big, Big Tax' on Middle Class in Baucus Bill

The Baucus proposal would impose, starting in 2013, a 35 percent excise tax on insurance companies for "high-cost plans" -- defined as those above $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for family plans.
...

The tax contemplated by Baucus is also a big revenue raiser. It is expected to raise $200 billion, money that Baucus is hoping to use to pay for subsidies for the uninsured.

...

Referring to Baucus, Rockefeller said, "He should understand that (his proposal) means that virtually every single coal miner is going to have a big, big tax put on them because the tax will be put on the company and the company will immediately pass it down and lower benefits because they are self insured, most of them, because they are larger. They will pass it down, lower benefits, and probably this will mean higher premiums for coal miners who are getting very good health care benefits for a very good reason. That is, like steelworkers and others, they are doing about the most dangerous job that can be done in America."

"So that’s not really a smart idea," Rockefeller continued. "In fact, it’s a very dangerous idea, and I’m not even sure the coal miners in West Virginia are aware that this is what is waiting if this bill passes."http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/09/dem-senator-warns-of-big-big-tax-on-middle-class-in-baucus-bill.html

A big big tax, and all it raises is $200 Billion?????

85Sooner
9/17/2009, 11:44 AM
The corollary of this is that sometimes you can improve service for the same or less money, right?

Well..... private schools perform better with lower amounts of money and lower paid teachers than public schools so there is proof Quality is not related too funding.

My Opinion Matters
9/17/2009, 12:26 PM
It's better than doing nothing at all, I suppose.

OklahomaTuba
9/17/2009, 01:19 PM
We should just re-name it the fucus plan.

JohnnyMack
9/18/2009, 11:33 AM
That Obama, he's a crafty fella.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1

If this is true, I'll be berry, berry disappointed.

OklahomaTuba
9/18/2009, 11:51 AM
So I guess Joe Wilson was right. He did Lie.

mdklatt
9/18/2009, 11:56 AM
Not sure if you're being facetious or not....



DON'T MAKE ME BUY CAR INSURANCE!! I can save money to pay for damages, and still save more money than I have to pay those bastards at State Farm!


Unless you're Bruce, paying for somebody's hospital stay after an accident would clean you out, let alone if you kill somebody.



ELIMINATE THE FCC!!! If parents are to afraid there precious little artifact children will hear a swear or see a booby, don't let them watch TV, or make sure you know what they are watching! Better yet, don't buy a damn TV, problem solved. I like boobies and swears!


I mostly agree with this, but I think the FCC should be responsible for making sure people can't just make **** up and broadcast it as fact. (Good job with Fox News, FCC. :rolleyes:)



DON'T MAKE ME PAY SOCIAL SECURITY!!! It won't be there for me, so why the hell should I care? Get rid of it, and if the old codgers didn't save enough money to live on, tough ****!

DON'T MAKE ME PAY FOR MEDICARE/MEDICAID! See above.


I sort of agree about Social Security. If you're being serious about MEDICARE/MEDICAID, quit being a selfish twat.



DON'T TAX MY GAS!!! Truckers do way more damage to the road than I do, why the hell do I pay the same amount per mile as they do?


Unless your car gets 3 MPG, you're not paying the same amount per mile as they do. A gas tax is a reasonably fair and straightforward way to apportion road costs. The more you drive and the heavier your vehicle is, the more you pay.

Harry Beanbag
9/18/2009, 05:58 PM
That Obama, he's a crafty fella.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1

If this is true, I'll be berry, berry disappointed.

But will you be surprised?

JohnnyMack
9/18/2009, 06:07 PM
No more so than the time you made me watch The Crying Game.

StoopTroup
9/18/2009, 06:35 PM
One of the things that bothers me with not just this President but all Presidents is that they don't listen to the American Public.

I do think that there should be Catastrophic Health Care Insurance for everyone in this Country. Yes I do think you could also put some sort of Preventative Medicine / Free Healthcare for everyone and still keep things the way they are. This stuff of requiring the Government to give as good a healthcare to people as they do Senators / Government Officials is ridiculous. They are important folks who I think deserve the best the people they represent can give them while in Office. Once out of office...they need to get a job or live with what the rest of us get.

The biggest problem with all of it in my mind is that there has been talk of a flat tax in this Country for over 10 to 20 years now...yet nothing has been done. Our economy went into the pooper and now they are trying to sell us on a very big wasteful plan that is loaded with people's "Pie in the Sky / Try to keep everybody happy" stuff.

It's all pretty sickening.

Oh yeah...and the immigration issues...they seem to be put to the side again.

I understand that now PBHO has this healthcare deal as his legacy issue...and that's really to bad because we all come out a loser whether it passes or doesn't pass IMO.

People need help but there is way to many people getting guarantees to get it passed IMO.

K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple stupid.

I think it's a good saying and a pretty good way to live life most times.

Things in our Government have become way to complicated for the masses. It's been getting worse since the end of the Vietnam War.

What the heck is going on in Afghanistan now? We need this to end...but the elections are already full of innuendo of fraud. Nothing good will come out of trying to help the Country. We need UBL/OBL's head on a platter. We need anyone who is running a terror camp to be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

I just got a Free T-shirt today for giving blood. It's in Honor of 911 and the t-shirt has the mural that was drawn on the wall at my workplace. The mural will stay there as long as the building is standing. We will never forget.

Here's a pic of the wall I found on a GIS.

http://www.usa-not-afraid.com/images/AA_mural.jpg

Harry Beanbag
9/18/2009, 08:38 PM
No more so than the time you made me watch The Crying Game.

That was one of the most special nights of my life.

GrapevineSooner
9/18/2009, 08:57 PM
That Obama, he's a crafty fella.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1

If this is true, I'll be berry, berry disappointed.

Depends on what his plan is.

For all the talk about illegal immigration coming from naturalized citizens like myself, I couldn't even begin to tell you what steps are incurred when one wishes to immigrate here legally.

If somebody feels that it's a cumbersome process that deserves to be streamlined, I'm all ears.

JohnnyMack
9/18/2009, 11:33 PM
That was one of the most special nights of my life.

I did like it when you turned on Captain & Tenille.

AlbqSooner
9/19/2009, 06:14 AM
One of the things that bothers me with not just this President but all Presidents is that they don't listen to the American Public.

This, more than anything, is the basis for the outpouring of anger at the Town Hall meetings. Not just the presidents, but all of our "Representatives".
Arrogance is difficult for most of us to tolerate.

StoopTroup
9/19/2009, 07:21 AM
Depends on what his plan is.

For all the talk about illegal immigration coming from naturalized citizens like myself, I couldn't even begin to tell you what steps are incurred when one wishes to immigrate here legally.

If somebody feels that it's a cumbersome process that deserves to be streamlined, I'm all ears.

That really gets us into another really long debate though. I know that folks were really up in arms when ideas like amnesty was brought up and I myself don't think that is something that is a good idea.

Becoming an Citizen of the United States of America.

It's easy to say. Rolls right off the tongue too. For me...it's a priveledge I was born with but I also know that I have Irish roots. When the Irish came to America...they suffered many of the same things that Mexican Americans suffer currently. They had to fight and work for everything. And they did. Many still do.

Getting a privilege like this shouldn't be easy. You should have to work for it. It should become something your so proud of that for generations to come...your family tells stories of your sacrifice. This is a great place to live. It's not perfect...but you'll find no other place on earth like it.

My Church has sponsored many really good families and helped them leave their homelands for the promise of a better life. I know of not one of them that won't be forever grateful either.

I totally agree with you that the process is difficult and is cumbersome...nearly impossible for some maybe. In the end though...it's invaluable and not something that should be as easy as trading one's old passport in for a shiny new United States of America one.

I wish all who apply the best in getting through the process. They are always welcome as far as I'm concerned. Just be a good citizen is all I ask. That and don't send your kids to Texas University. :D

Harry Beanbag
9/19/2009, 09:52 AM
I did like it when you turned on Captain & Tenille.

I was so relieved when you responded to that. Their music really gets me in the mood if you know what I mean, and I'm pretty sure that you do. http://www.slickdawg.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

mdklatt
9/19/2009, 08:47 PM
Well..... private schools perform better with lower amounts of money and lower paid teachers than public schools

They also get to pick their students.

Curly Bill
9/19/2009, 11:31 PM
They also get to pick their students.

...and this and nothing more is why they often perform better than public schools.

Glad to see we agree on at least one thing klatt. ;)

SoonerKnight
9/20/2009, 02:45 AM
Since Obama promised not to raise taxes on the middle class, i'm guessing this is DOA...
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/09/dem-senator-warns-of-big-big-tax-on-middle-class-in-baucus-bill.html

A big big tax, and all it raises is $200 Billion?????

That is funny the tax was meant to be aimed at the CEO's or are those middle class workers paying $21,000 for insurence! :rolleyes: HAHAHA!!!!

A quote from a Rockefellar even better! I mean JD Rockefeller was all for the income tax!!


Nice try! HA!