republic vs, democracy

[delhalew]

Just saying...this is the sort of thing people can forget over the course a couple hundred drug addled, war torn, and power hungry years.

http://1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm

No biggie.:confused:

[delhalew]

For those who like claymation...how this for a complex idea compacted to 3 minutes? Plato's Allegory of the cave, from the Republic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM

[SteelCitySooner]

Good post. Far too many people do not understand the distinction and think we are a democracy..

[delhalew]

Few care to remind us what we were conceived as. In our pure form the USA is a unique beacon of what is possible in a union of independent states or a true republic.

[SoonerAficionadOU]

More specifically, we are a Constitutional Federal Republic. The Constitutional part is obvious, but the Federal part means that we have States that act as large, powerful protectors of their citizens' rights, and which allow for variation throughout the country without the need for military or political conflict.

[stoopified]

i THOUGHT BEING A REPUBLIC MEANT RIDDING OURSELVES OF ALL THE DEMOCRATS. :D

[King Crimson]

Plato's allegory of the cave is about epistemology, not political forms or in Plato's language "constitutions".

[Half a Hundred]

In the beginning, the US federal government was strictly republican, with citizens represented by men selected usually through non-democratic means. Senators were selected by state legislatures, which had no requirement of democratic representation, and the president by state panels of electors, which could be determined by any means the state government found appropriate. Even the House was not democratic at this time, as the franchise was strictly limited to white male property owners (the US version of the European aristocracy). The big difference was that there was no sense of hereditary rights - you could vote as soon as you owned land, and you lost your franchise when you lost it.

The course of history has shown our electoral system to become increasingly democratic, from the expansion of the franchise to all white male citizens in the first half of the 19th Century, to putatively all males after the 15th Amendment, to all citizens in the 20th Century. Likewise, our elections have democratized, from direct election of senators to initiative and referendum found in many states.

While the US was specifically non-democratic at the beginning of the Nation's history up through most of the 20th Century (the US was only marginally more democratic than Germany at the start of WWI, the main difference being a lack of aristocracy), today it's one of the most democratic in the world.

[1890MilesToNorman]

When are we going back to land owner only voting?

Those who don't own anything don't have a damn thing to lose if they vote for a Nimrod.

[delhalew]

When are we going back to land owner only voting?

Those who don't own anything don't have a damn thing to lose if they vote for a Nimrod.

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29

Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Democrats: 13.2 Republicans: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Republicans won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say good-bye to the USA in fewer than five years.

[delhalew]

Plato's allegory of the cave is about epistemology, not political forms or in Plato's language "constitutions".

I offered up that link because I like it and the topic reminded me of it. Besides which, it is loosely related if you care to connect the dots. Plato(and Socrates) in the Republic covers a lot of ideas. The allegory is merely part of chapter 7.

[soonerscuba]

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29

Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Democrats: 13.2 Republicans: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Republicans won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say good-bye to the USA in fewer than five years.Every time you forward an email that cannot even get the number of states right, God murders a puppy for your gullibility, if you believe this you don't even have a cursory interest in determining what is true and not.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Every time you forward an email that cannot even get the number of states right, God murders a puppy for your gullibility, if you believe this you don't even have a cursory interest in determining what is true and not.

Yer right, we have 57 states not 48.

[delhalew]

Every time you forward an email that cannot even get the number of states right, God murders a puppy for your gullibility, if you believe this you don't even have a cursory interest in determining what is true and not.

The point is basic and not refutable.

[soonerscuba]

The point is basic and not refutable.Oh really? http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp

[SoonerProphet]

The point is basic and not refutable.

Are you serious?

[Pricetag]

Heh, the philosophy talk rings kinda hollow in the same breath as that e-mail forward from 2000.

[soonerhubs]

.

[delhalew]

Oh really? http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp

The POINT not the email.:) The zero liability voter is real. Am I gonna tell them they can't vote? no. Do I disagree with the creation of more of them? yes.

[olevetonahill]

Every time you forward an email that cannot even get the number of states right, God murders a puppy for your gullibility, if you believe this you don't even have a cursory interest in determining what is true and not.

How many Puppies did God Kill over Obamas 57 states ?

[Pricetag]

I think both the dominant political parties need to change their names, because the republic- and democra- prefixes are confusing.

I think a true constitutional republic is definitely the best form of government, but I do not believe that the current republican party wants that any more than the democrat party wants it.

[delhalew]

I think both the dominant political parties need to change their names, because the republic- and democra- prefixes are confusing.

I think a true constitutional republic is definitely the best form of government, but I do not believe that the current republican party wants that any more than the democrat party wants it.

Your absolutely correct. Both parties jumped the shark LONG ago. Registering independent has sent the message I want sent. I have been an (I) for many years. My mother and father are only now leaving the (D) party.

[SoonerProphet]

they both represent mere marketing techniques to sale crap to people. imo the product they both peddle is unadulterated bullsh*t.

[soonerhubs]

.

[delhalew]

And we forget we have so much in common.:)

[Pricetag]

Your absolutely correct. Both parties jumped the shark LONG ago. Registering independent has sent the message I want sent. I have been an (I) for many years. My mother and father are only now leaving the (D) party.
Do you vote independent, though? We all complain about the Ds and Rs, but when it's go time, they still get almost all the votes.

Heck, there was only one independent on my entire ballot in the 2008 election. I voted proudly for Steven P. Wallace.

[delhalew]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think we are nearly ready as a nation for a viable third party candidate.

[Pricetag]

Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no is the definition of independent, IMO. I think on some level, we'll always identify more with one side or the other of the political spectrum, but breaking away from that when we deem it necessary, whether to vote for an independent candidate or for the candidate from the other side, is a good thing.

We have to get over this "lesser of two evils" mindset and not be afraid to elect someone from a different party because we don't know how they'll act. We know exactly how the republicans and democrats will act--we don't like it. But to continue to elect them because we know what they'll do is silly and self destructive.

I don't know if we have to elect a third party candidate as president or even a lot to Congress or anything. Giving individual candidates at all levels close-enough calls might jerk them back into reality.

As it stands right now, I'll always vote for independent candidates because I know that they won't win. It's just a way for me to say, "Here's my vote, and you didn't get it."

[delhalew]

I couldn't agree more.

[My Opinion Matters]

The POINT not the email.:) The zero liability voter is real. Am I gonna tell them they can't vote? no. Do I disagree with the creation of more of them? yes.

So you're pro-choice?

[delhalew]

So you're pro-choice?

Does your mind really work that way? Instead of empowering people your natural instinct is to exterminate them.

[My Opinion Matters]

Does your mind really work that way? Instead of empowering people your natural instinct is to exterminate them.

I oppose the creation of more Obama voters. Those are your words, not mine.

[delhalew]

I oppose the creation of more Obama voters. Those are your words, not mine.

Wrong, I oppose the creation of more zero liability voters. THOSE are my words. So don't try to saddle me with yours.

A zero liability voter has no dog in the hunt apart from the entitlements they reap the benefits of supporting. They have been molded into victims by community "organizers", Allowed to live off the backs of productive members of society and will never vote against free ****. No matter how much dept is heaped upon future generations.

They are not created by being born...they are created by the modern progressives as backstop to loss of power.

See spot run. Run spot run.

[My Opinion Matters]

Wrong, I oppose the creation of more zero liability voters. THOSE are my words. So don't try to saddle me with yours.

A zero liability voter has no dog in the hunt apart from the entitlements they reap the benefits of supporting. They have been molded into victims by community "organizers", Allowed to live off the backs of productive members of society and will never vote against free ****. No matter how much dept is heaped upon future generations.

They are not created by being born...they are created by the modern progressives as backstop to loss of power.

See spot run. Run spot run.

Oh, so you mean each respective party panders to their traditional electorate? Pretty illumninating stuff there.

Answer me this, are oil executives zero liability voters because the GOP has traditionally supported entitlement programs and tax breaks for wealthy corporations?

[Half a Hundred]

Wrong, I oppose the creation of more zero liability voters. THOSE are my words. So don't try to saddle me with yours.

A zero liability voter has no dog in the hunt apart from the entitlements they reap the benefits of supporting. They have been molded into victims by community "organizers", Allowed to live off the backs of productive members of society and will never vote against free ****. No matter how much dept is heaped upon future generations.

They are not created by being born...they are created by the modern progressives as backstop to loss of power.

See spot run. Run spot run.

So a foreign citizen who owns property in the US has more legal standing in your mind than someone who lives and works here, but does not own any property?

[soonerhubs]

You all are missing the important issues:

u5tmnBeNv18


Could Somebody Please Remove These Cutleries from My Knees?

[delhalew]

Pandering is a little different than actual creation of a class of people who are dependent on your political philosophy. Could you agree with that?

These ideas are ancient and are the most successful means of control.

Oil companies not only pay taxes, but supply much needed energy for our country. By definition, this is the opposite of zero liability. Not to mention these businesses were started by ambition entrepreneurs.

This the problem with zero liability voters. They have been robbed of any ambition they ever possessed. I just think its sad and it only hurts our country.

[My Opinion Matters]

Pandering is a little different than actual creation of a class of people who are dependent on your political philosophy. Could you agree with that?

These ideas are ancient and are the most successful means of control.

Oil companies not only pay taxes, but supply much needed energy for our country. By definition, this is the opposite of zero liability. Not to mention these businesses were started by ambition entrepreneurs.

This the problem with zero liability voters. They have been robbed of any ambition they ever possessed. I just think its sad and it only hurts our country.

I'm pretty sure none of what you described here has actually happened anywhere but in the imagnations of Limbaugh Nation.

[delhalew]

So a foreign citizen who owns property in the US has more legal standing in your mind than someone who lives and works here, but does not own any property?

Absolutely not. They just have not been victimized by a welfare state, affirmative action, ect.

The law is clear any citizen without a felony can vote. You can, however, learn a lot by noting who trust the gov to hold their hand. These are usually the people who know no other way.

[delhalew]

I'm pretty sure none of what you described here has actually happened anywhere but in the imagnations of Limbaugh Nation.

Not just a river in Egypt.

[KC//CRIMSON]

I'm pretty sure none of what you described here has actually happened anywhere but in the imaginations of Limbaugh Nation.

http://www.incompetentpictures.com/sitefiles/Rick%20James%202.jpg

OxyContin is a helluva drug.

[delhalew]

:confused: I don't even listen to Rush...ever.:eek:

Although he is a lot more on point than any lefties will ever give him credit for. Note this:

Somebody mentions Rush...Cue tired old jokes about oxy and obesity.

The actions of someone with a weaksauce argument says I.

[KC//CRIMSON]

:confused: I don't even listen to Rush...ever.:eek:

Although he is a lot more on point than any lefties will ever give him credit for. Note this:

Somebody mentions Rush...Cue tired old jokes about oxy and obesity.

The actions of someone with a weaksauce argument says I.


Would you rather we cue his talking points of making fun of people with crippling diseases?

or his blatant racism with Barack the Magic Negro?

or his drug abuse again?

I wonder how many people will *iss on his grave when he croaks like Ted Kennedy?

[delhalew]

Would you rather we cue his talking points of making fun of people with crippling diseases?

or his blatant racism with Barack the Magic Negro?

or his drug abuse again?

I wonder how many people will *iss on his grave when he croaks like Ted Kennedy?

Outside of his address to the RNC. I don't know all the little things he says to **** off pc lefties.

[Pricetag]

Pandering is a little different than actual creation of a class of people who are dependent on your political philosophy. Could you agree with that?
Do you not think that there is a class of such people on the other side of the aisle, as well?

There are tons of people mailing it in at all kinds of jobs right now, Peter Principling their way up the ladder by simply biding their time and not ****ing things up too badly.

How are they any different than the entitlement addicts? Both are doing the bare minimum of what is expected of them, based upon the postion they started in life. The entitlement addicts have the government, the working stiffs have big business. In the end, neither one of them gives a rat's *** about anyone else but themselves.

That's why I laugh at the Tea Party folks--they have been reaping the benefits (that being a modest middle class life while the big cats got really rich) of the stuff that was going on that got us into this economic mess for years, but now that it's time to pay the piper, they can't decide whether they're oppressed peoples, revolutionaries, or part of another "greatest generation." It's a vapid temper tantrum.

[delhalew]

For me holding down a job and knowing your child is a baby, not a paycheck goes a long way toward being a productive member of society.

That however is beside the point, its as simple as do you pay taxes or do you not pay taxes. Many in this country do not.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Rush is equal time, the friggin left has commandeered every form of print and televised media they can. Innerwebs and radio are the only options they have not conquered!

Long live the Conservatives among us.

[Half a Hundred]

Absolutely not. They just have not been victimized by a welfare state, affirmative action, ect.

The law is clear any citizen without a felony can vote. You can, however, learn a lot by noting who trust the gov to hold their hand. These are usually the people who know no other way.

Is there anyone here in this country, other than Somali immigrants/refugees, who knows how to live without the benefits of public infrastructure?

[delhalew]

Is there anyone here in this country, other than Somali immigrants/refugees, who knows how to live without the benefits of public infrastructure?

There is a distinction between infrastructure and nanny state. For me the difference is of great import.

[Half a Hundred]

There is a distinction between infrastructure and nanny state. For me the difference is of great import.

Why should the nanny state pave roads for all the immature children? Real men know how to navigate over any territory, regardless of the difficulty. I also hate this idea of a military - everyone should be responsible for defending himself and his family, without climbing behind big ol' Uncle Sam's leg.

[delhalew]

Why should the nanny state pave roads for all the immature children? Real men know how to navigate over any territory, regardless of the difficulty. I also hate this idea of a military - everyone should be responsible for defending himself and his family, without climbing behind big ol' Uncle Sam's leg.

Article 1 section 8 of the US Constitution

To establish Post Office and Post ROADS.

To raise and support an Army...Navy

10th Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[StoopTroup]

All of this discussion and theory is worthless.

You don't need Plato to help explain it either.

Why make something so freaking complicated when it's been sitting there since 1954 for every American to read, speak or write....


I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

YWIA

ST

[Half a Hundred]

Article 1 section 8 of the US Constitution

To establish Post Office and Post ROADS.

To raise and support an Army...Navy

10th Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

OK, so any road not specifically for the transport of mail is unconstitutional, as is the Air Force.

[delhalew]

OK, so any road not specifically for the transport of mail is unconstitutional, as is the Air Force.

You forgot your smiley.:P

[Leroy Lizard]

Answer me this, are oil executives zero liability voters because the GOP has traditionally supported entitlement programs and tax breaks for wealthy corporations?

An executive is not the same as a corporation. Executives are salaried and pay taxes like everyone else. They may be a little smarter in their ability to reduce their tax burden sometimes, but overall they probably pay a larger percentage of their income than most.

A corporation may get a tax break, but the shareholders of the corporation have to pay taxes on their income just like everyone else.

We see a corporation get a tax break and assume the executives get the same break. Not so.

So to answer your question, executives are not zero-liability voters. They do their job. They get paid. They pay their taxes.

[Leroy Lizard]

OK, so any road not specifically for the transport of mail is unconstitutional, as is the Air Force.

The Air Force was originally a part of the Army. If you are arguing that it was unConstitutional for it to split from the Army, fine. We could have left air command in charge of the Army, but nothing would have been gained from it.

As for roads, nothing in the Constitution says that states can't build roads. Most roads are built with state or local funds. The exception is the U.S. highway system, but it is used for postal and military purposes all the time.

[sooner ngintunr]

Do you vote independent, though? We all complain about the Ds and Rs, but when it's go time, they still get almost all the votes.

Heck, there was only one independent on my entire ballot in the 2008 election. I voted proudly for Steven P. Wallace.

thats because in OK its nearly impossible to get on the ballot as an independent. We've got the worst ballot laws in this state, its horrible.

No write in vote, 40,000 signatures. its bull****.


We've already covered the "and justice for all", it don't jive well on this board.