PRIVATIZE the FIRE DEPARTMENT!!!!!!

[tommieharris91]

http://angrytownhall.com/

[OklahomaTuba]

Like EMSA is??

Interesting concept. Me likey..

[NormanPride]

Like EMSA is??

Interesting concept. Me likey..

Hook, line and sinker, baby.

[StoopTroup]

Yeah awesome.




“We the people, hold this truth to be self evident: A privatized Fire Department deserves the right to deny the call to put out your fire if it saves money and benefits their stockholders."

-Founder Troy Conrad

[delhalew]

Wow, somebody totally failed at sarcasm/satire. With the exception of grants from the federal gov'ment, most firehouse are funded municipally and through fundraisers so...this, the police, and road arguments are...

TEH BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE.

[MAJ W]

Wow, somebody totally failed at sarcasm/satire. With the exception of grants from the federal gov'ment, most firehouse are funded municipally and through fundraisers so...this, the police, and road arguments are...

TEH BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE.

I guess we could use your grammar and spelling as an argument against public schooling too, eh? ;)

The bottom line is - it is a good argument. The government runs many things quite well. Regardless of who runs it, private, public or government, there is always waste and poor management to combat.

[Curly Bill]

I guess we could use your grammar and spelling as an argument against public schooling too, eh? ;)

The bottom line is - it is a good argument. The government runs many things quite well. Regardless of who runs it, private, public or government, there is always waste and poor management to combat.

Let's see a list.

[soonerloyal]

1. THE UNITED STATES FREAKING MARINE CORPS

[Curly Bill]

1. THE UNITED STATES FREAKING MARINE CORPS

The Marine Corps is just one of the departments within the Navy. ;)


...and while we have the best military in the world, to argue that they are well and efficiently run would not be correct.

[MAJ W]

Let's see a list.

How about you provide me a list of all the stuff we do now, that you think could be run better as a profit or non-profit? Forestry, FBI, CIA, Coast Guard, ATF?

Having served with contractors in the GWOT, I can tell you that they are concerned with one thing, and that is profit. There are some things that we will never profit from, nor should profit be our number one motivator. Whether that is healthcare or your security is a matter of opinion, but I get tired of people saying that they don't want the government involved.

There are a hell of a lot of dedicated people working in our government for our benefit (there are also a lot of ****** bags, but I believe there might be a few of those working for private firms as well).

No easy answers, but whatever we do, something needs to be done, because there are some good, hardworking people who are getting screwed because they can't get health care for themselves or family members. To deny that is simply to deny reality...

[MAJ W]

The Marine Corps is just one of the departments within the Navy. ;)


...and while we have the best military in the world, to argue that they are well and efficiently run would not be correct.

...and yet, we are the mightiest fighting force the world has ever known.

[Curly Bill]

How about you provide me a list of all the stuff we do now, that you think could be run better as a profit or non-profit? Forestry, FBI, CIA, Coast Guard, ATF?


You made the bold statement that government runs many things quite well. I called you out on it, so pony up.

[Curly Bill]

...and yet, we are the mightiest fighting force the world has ever known.

I guess you didn't see where I said we have the best military in the world? :O

[MAJ W]

You made the bold statement that government runs many things quite well. I called you out on it, so pony up.

I guess you didn't see where I said FAA, Forestry, FBI, CIA, Coast Guard, ATF (just to name a few)...

[Curly Bill]

I guess you didn't see where I said FAA, Forestry, FBI, CIA, Coast Guard, ATF (just to name a few)...

Seriously? You want to argue that those are well run? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[MAJ W]

Seriously? You want to argue that those are well run? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Nope. My argument was - do you think they would be better run as private businesses? Private businesses are meant to make a profit. Some businesses CAN'T be run with profit as a motivator.

You want to talk about private/public companies? GM, Chrysler, Enron, AIG, etc.

The "government" actually works pretty well.

[delhalew]

Well the CIA is in the process of being rendered impotent. Check that one off the list. I also am hesitant to back you on the FAA.

Eh, carry on.


You want to talk about private/public companies? GM, Chrysler, AIG, etc.
These were regulated to death and then nationalized.

[Curly Bill]

Nope. My argument was - do you think they would be better run as private businesses? Private businesses are meant to make a profit. Some businesses CAN'T be run with profit as a motivator.

You want to talk about private/public companies? GM, Chrysler, Enron, AIG, etc.

The "government" actually works pretty well.

If you really believe that you're too stupid to talk to. :O

[picasso]

is this really about city firemen trying to sway public votes in elections?

because those guys should not be campaigning for anybody as a group.:texan:

[GrapevineSooner]

Nope. My argument was - do you think they would be better run as private businesses? Private businesses are meant to make a profit. Some businesses CAN'T be run with profit as a motivator.

You want to talk about private/public companies? GM, Chrysler, Enron, AIG, etc.

The "government" actually works pretty well.

Cash for Clunkers was a smashing success.

[picasso]

Nope. My argument was - do you think they would be better run as private businesses? Private businesses are meant to make a profit. Some businesses CAN'T be run with profit as a motivator.

You want to talk about private/public companies? GM, Chrysler, Enron, AIG, etc.

The "government" actually works pretty well.

The government hasn't the checks and balances said companies had to deal with.

[delhalew]

Cash for Clunkers was a smashing success.

Did you forget the smiley?:D

[tommieharris91]

Did you forget the smiley?:D

It helped automaker's bottom line more than any bailout did.

[Okla-homey]

It helped automaker's bottom line more than any bailout did.

Especially the bottomlines of Toyota and Hyundai.

[Mjcpr]

is this really about city firemen trying to sway public votes in elections?

because those guys should not be campaigning for anybody as a group.:texan:

They're doing it in Tulsa.

[soonerloyal]

Especially the bottomlines of Toyota and Hyundai.

Yep, and we can thank Richard Shelby, Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, Thad Cochran, Jim DeMint, Saxby Chambliss, etc. for that. After all, they won't support American auto makers, but they made sure the foreign auto makers in their states did hugely well.

Shelby: $3 million in federal funds to improve roads near the Hyundai plant in Alabama after the state gave $250 million to the Korean automaker. He opposed loans to the U.S. automakers, but for foreign auto companies, his Alabama provided more than three quarters of a billion dollars. In addition to the quarter billion he made sure Hyundai was presented, he and Bama handed another quarter billion to German Daimler for a Mercedes-Benz plant, nearly a quarter billion to Japanese Honda and $29 million to Japanese Toyota.

McConnell: Opposed loans to the American "Big Three", but Kentucky's been providing grants for Toyota to the tune of $371 million from taxpayers since 1986.

Cochran: Another politician who isn't fine with helping American companies, but is content with foreign governments providing subsidies* to the transplant automakers in Mississippi. And he's okay with spending state & federal money to help foreign automakers locate manufacturing plants in the U.S. - again, especially in his state (*It is interesting to me as a side note that nationalized health care in those countries, such as Japan and Germany, serves as one such subsidy).

DeMint: Says our government shouldn't get into the auto industry, but he forgot to specify he meant the American auto industry. South Carolina and DeMint provided $230 million in gifts to the German auto company BMW.

Toyota has manufacturing plants in Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Texas; Georgia has S. Korea's Kia and Germany's Daimler/Chrysler. Chambliss represents GA and Cornyn represents TX.

That's only a tiny slice of political information chock-full of chewy lobbying, special-interest group goodness.

P.S. I'm sure it's a simple coincidence that while American auto workers are unionized, these foreign-owned plants are not.

[picasso]

yes and Union pensions have noting to do with the domestic car cluster **** that we now have.
so are you saying that these loans are the sole reason for Toyota success?

[OklahomaTuba]

P.S. I'm sure it's a simple coincidence that while American auto workers are unionized, these foreign-owned plants are not.No wonder the foreign owner plants aren't closing and their cars are selling.

[Penguin]

Yeah, sure, whatever.

I keep looking at the Constitution and I don't see anything about having the right to a free fire department when your shanty is on fire.

[picasso]

Yeah, sure, whatever.

I keep looking at the Constitution and I don't see anything about having the right to a free fire department when your shanty is on fire.

you've seen my place?:D

[OklahomaTuba]

The "government" actually works pretty well.

Best post ever!!!!

[delhalew]

Yeah, sure, whatever.

I keep looking at the Constitution and I don't see anything about having the right to a free fire department when your shanty is on fire.

You don't. That's why the FD is a local responsibility.

[soonerloyal]

I cannot for the life of me wrap my mind around the fact that some of these posts are actually serious.

Seriously?

[OklahomaTuba]

You don't. That's why the FD is a local responsibility.As most things should be, including health care.

[picasso]

I cannot for the life of me wrap my mind around the fact that some of these posts are actually serious.

Seriously?

what, you mean not everyone thinks like you do?

[OklahomaTuba]

I cannot for the life of me wrap my mind around the fact that some of these posts are actually serious.

Seriously?Well, given your observation about Government "mostly" working well, it shouldn't take long to do the wrapping. ;)

[tommieharris91]

No wonder the foreign owner plants aren't closing and their cars are selling.

Let's just look past the fact that Japanese automakers have more efficient, easier to build, and generally more desirable cars and blame it all on the UAW...:rolleyes:

The unions are one of the reasons, but not the only reason, that the US auto industry needed a bailout. The pisspoor managers of GM hurt their cause.

[delhalew]

Let's just look past the fact that Japanese automakers have more efficient, easier to build, and generally more desirable cars and blame it all on the UAW...:rolleyes:

The unions are one of the reasons, but not the only reason, that the US auto industry needed a bailout. The pisspoor managers of GM hurt their cause.

You could also change cafe standards about the time the companies adjust to your old ones. Then every couple of years, you could champion a new energy de jour(hydrogen, enthanol, biofuel, electric) so that said companies never know were to focus their R&D.

Just another reason...schizophrenic regulation.

[tommieharris91]

You could also change cafe standards about the time the companies adjust to your old ones. Then every couple of years, you could champion a new energy de jour(hydrogen, enthanol, biofuel, electric) so that said companies never know were to focus their R&D.

Just another reason...schizophrenic regulation.

Yet the market wanted cars that ran on different fuels. GM was (and has been in the last 10 years or so) one of the last to adapt their supply chain to produce what the market wanted.

[OklahomaTuba]

The unions are one of the reasons, but not the only reason, that the US auto industry needed a bailout. The pisspoor managers of GM hurt their cause.First of all, we didn't bail them out, we Nationalized them.

And we still OWN them, and they are doing very badly still.

It just ironic that the libz handed out free money to buy a product that our government already owns, and people still didn't buy it.

So tell me, why again did we need do this????? To save jobs??? Good luck with that. Ford is our only hope at this point.

[tommieharris91]

First of all, we didn't bail them out, we Nationalized them.

And we still OWN them, and they are doing very badly still.

It just ironic that the libz handed out free money to buy a product that our government already owns, and people still didn't buy it.

So tell me, why again did we need do this????? To save jobs??? Good luck with that. Ford is our only hope at this point.

Why a company gets to the point where they needed a bailout and whether any failing company actually deserves a bailout are 2 different discussions. My post that this was a response to was about why GM got to the point where they were discussing bankruptcy, gubmint intervention, etc.

[OklahomaTuba]

Why a company gets to the point where they needed a bailout and whether any failing company actually deserves a bailout are 2 different discussions. My post that this was a response to was about why GM got to the point where they were discussing bankruptcy, gubmint intervention, etc.Ahh, gotcha.

You know, I am sorta OK with the bank bailouts. I understand that not having access to capital could have put millions out of work and destroyed the economy.

But the GM thing just boggles the mind. If any company needed to just implode and start over again (bankruptcy), GM did.

GM would be a lot stronger than making it a government funded zombie, like our insolvent banks currently are.

[yermom]

Yep, and we can thank Richard Shelby, Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, Thad Cochran, Jim DeMint, Saxby Chambliss, etc. for that. After all, they won't support American auto makers, but they made sure the foreign auto makers in their states did hugely well.

Shelby: $3 million in federal funds to improve roads near the Hyundai plant in Alabama after the state gave $250 million to the Korean automaker. He opposed loans to the U.S. automakers, but for foreign auto companies, his Alabama provided more than three quarters of a billion dollars. In addition to the quarter billion he made sure Hyundai was presented, he and Bama handed another quarter billion to German Daimler for a Mercedes-Benz plant, nearly a quarter billion to Japanese Honda and $29 million to Japanese Toyota.

McConnell: Opposed loans to the American "Big Three", but Kentucky's been providing grants for Toyota to the tune of $371 million from taxpayers since 1986.

Cochran: Another politician who isn't fine with helping American companies, but is content with foreign governments providing subsidies* to the transplant automakers in Mississippi. And he's okay with spending state & federal money to help foreign automakers locate manufacturing plants in the U.S. - again, especially in his state (*It is interesting to me as a side note that nationalized health care in those countries, such as Japan and Germany, serves as one such subsidy).

DeMint: Says our government shouldn't get into the auto industry, but he forgot to specify he meant the American auto industry. South Carolina and DeMint provided $230 million in gifts to the German auto company BMW.

Toyota has manufacturing plants in Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Texas; Georgia has S. Korea's Kia and Germany's Daimler/Chrysler. Chambliss represents GA and Cornyn represents TX.

That's only a tiny slice of political information chock-full of chewy lobbying, special-interest group goodness.

P.S. I'm sure it's a simple coincidence that while American auto workers are unionized, these foreign-owned plants are not.

if the foreign auto makers are building cars here and empoying Americans, i don't really care where the CEO's check gets mailed...

[LosAngelesSooner]

if the foreign auto makers are building cars here and empoying Americans, i don't really care where the CEO's check gets mailed...^^^ This.

[tommieharris91]

if the foreign auto makers are building cars here and empoying Americans, i don't really care where the CEO's check gets mailed...

Depends on whether you're measuring GDP or GNP.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Can we please get back to our legal, federally protected jagging it in Martinson's and Westcott's crapshooter?

Or maybe more falsehoods from Tuba about EMSA being a private entity?

This thread had the potential to really expose some serious half-truths our beloved Tulsa councilors are spreading right about now as we do our best to stick their political careers in a six foot hole. But we went off the rails with all this crazy stuff!

[OklahomaTuba]

Or maybe more falsehoods from Tuba about EMSA being a private entity?
I'm sorry, I meant to say Paramedics Plus LLC. I believe that is who operates the ambulances no?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Paramedics Plus is under contract to provide personnel to the EMSA trust.

The ambulances and equipment are actually the property of the City of Tulsa. The EMSA Trust is a non-profit. The only profit generating entity providing emergency medical care is as you say, Paramedics Plus, but they, as I said, are actually a contract services provider to the non-profit that is the EMSA Trust.

[OklahomaTuba]

The only profit generating entity providing emergency medical care is as you say, Paramedics PlusOk, so my wording was a little wrong (EMSA not PP LLC), but basically when I said the ambulance service was private I was correct then.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

You are incorrect.

A private ambulance service, such as ones in the Tulsa metro's past (Gold Cross is an example), is just that. A for profit service that generates revenue as a business venture for the profit of an individual or individuals.

EMSA, the operating entity as per Tulsa City Ordinance Title 37, is a non-profit entity that uses city general fund subsidies, county and municipal ad valorem dollars, insurance reimbursement, and treatment/transport revenue for operations. Paramedics Plus is under contract with EMSA to provide operations personnel for the ambulance fleet. EMSA could hire medics in house and still enjoy non-profit status but with contract personnel, much like a builder subcontracts framers, drywallers, plumbers, et cetera, there is an additional flexibility in personnel management and the ability to keep costs known on an annual contract basis.

So no, EMSA is not a private ambulance service. Again, the ambulances and equipment are owned outright by the City of Tulsa. EMSA manages the ambulances, equipment, and personnel, which are employees of Paramedics Plus, who is under contract with the non-profit entity known as EMSA.

It's called a public trust. A private ambulance provider is an actual type of entity, not an interpretation of the situation. The only profit made is via the Paramedics Plus contract, but even that is within the operational costs of the public trust known as EMSA.

[StoopTroup]

Real men put out their own fires and we don't ride around in no pansy ambulances...we walk to the horsepital even if we can't walk.

[soonerloyal]

Well, given your observation about Government "mostly" working well, it shouldn't take long to do the wrapping. ;)

Questioning my intelligence doesn't help you state your case, hon. Stick to facts, like I posted. I love debating, let's just do that instead of you throwing pointless, weak barbs, K? How about addressing the facts I provided.

It's strange that so many people in the GOP, supposedly the very same party who throws out the "Party of Morals and Values" moniker like it actually identifies them (pfft), don't show a whit of WWJD.

If some people honestly don't care about who profits & benefits from deals made that screw the middle class and average Joe worker, they should quit claiming they give a rat's arse about anything but themselves.

It's one thing to say ya care about American jobs and fellow Americans' welfare, and quite another if you don't put your money and vote to what you're shovelin'.

And real men, like my Firefighter son, put out fires that need puttin' out. I raised him right, he doesn't put a dollar value on his fellow human being's worth. He saves their hides and homes from being burned, no matter their income. And yeah, he'll do it for free. I'd be ashamed of him if he was any other way...

[picasso]

It's strange that so many people in the GOP, supposedly the very same party who throws out the "Party of Morals and Values" moniker like it actually identifies them (pfft), don't show a whit of WWJD.

If some people honestly don't care about who profits & benefits from deals made that screw the middle class and average Joe worker, they should quit claiming they give a rat's arse about anything but themselves.

It's one thing to say ya care about American jobs and fellow Americans' welfare, and quite another if you don't put your money and vote to what you're shovelin'.



yes because every single voting Republican is an obvious hater and spills vitriolic fluid.

Both sides are full of this.

And since when did the left care about American jobs and American workers? It's pretty obvious to me which side is trying to take advantage of a poor economy. Keep reeling 'em in.

[soonerloyal]

Not every single Rep. voter. Just people like you is enough on here for the sake of discussion. You prove my point with every political post. My voting record reflects my good moral WWJD values. And so do the reps. I vote for.

Refute my posted automaker vs. politician facts, boy. Can't?

[delhalew]

You're right about one thing loyal. Its no coincidence that these companies receiving subsidies from their local reps are non-union.

Why pour good money after bad. The UAW is the kiss of death, rivaled only by the federal gov in its ability to **** away resources.

The reason these companies are in the states you mentioned is so they they can offer good jobs for good pay without giving up the decision making to some yahoo who cares ****- all for profits. You know, those dirty profits that provide the only motivation to start a business in the first place.:)

[soonerloyal]

And lobbyists who pay millions to politicians to screw over the public, to keep profits huge, have nothing to do with it?

Okay. What ever.

Here's what I have to remind myself: there isn't a single one of us here that is going to change another's mind, so in the end, what we say won't mean much except to vilify or to confirm someone else's view. Alrightythen, so be it.

If I could make plain any particular few things here, it would be that (like many others) my love & concern for this nation has always been - and continues to be - just as patriotic, as loving and as genuine & true as any good Americans'. I seriously believe that most people want the same good for our country. What we hope for and work for is the same for the most part - it's how we think will get us there that differs. Other peoples' concerns about the previous President were as valid and genuine as many of yours are now. What makes no sense to me is the view that "They" were wrong/unpatriotic/spiritually lost/paranoid/etc. but that concerns about the current President is right/patriotic/Christian/vigilant/etc. If questioning one leader is all right, no matter the events of the time, questioning another is fine as well. Socialism, Fascism, all these terms and feelings are thrown around with so much casual certainty that they apply, often with little true thought of what's really happening, and how it affects people. "Don't Tread On Me" isn't whining petulance for some and heartfelt bravery for others. Each viewpoint calls for thoughtful consideration, deserves honest study and merits respect.

The journey Home takes different paths. Life's like that. It's reaching Home - and the love found there - that matters.

Estrogenic post finished. BOOMER DAMN SOONER!

[OklahomaTuba]

It's called a public trust. A private ambulance provider is an actual type of entity, not an interpretation of the situation. The only profit made is via the Paramedics Plus contract, but even that is within the operational costs of the public trust known as EMSA.That's fine and all that its a"public trust", but its still a private company driving the damn ambulances around town.

[OklahomaTuba]

Questioning my intelligence doesn't help you state your case, hon. Stick to facts, like I posted. Goodness, can't take a little teasing not can we?? Need to get a thicker skin if you're going to make dumbarse comments like the "government works well", hon.

Ask any of the car dealers who STILL haven't been paid for "Cash for Clunkers" how well the governments working. And that's just one easy example.

[OklahomaTuba]

My voting record reflects my good moral WWJD values.So did you vote against Obama, or did you think Jesus would vote for federally funding killing of the unborn???? Just curious...

[yermom]

So did you vote against Obama, or did you think Jesus would vote for federally funding killing of the unborn???? Just curious...

i'm pretty sure you have to turn a blind eye to something to vote for D or R if you align yourself with Jesus

[OklahomaTuba]

i'm pretty sure you have to turn a blind eye to something to vote for D or R if you align yourself with JesusAgreed. I think there are many far-far left policies would be more inline with Biblical teachings, but I would probably never support them for various reason, although I would hope to adhere to them personally.

But I sure as hell wouldn't try to say each and every vote of mine is how Jesus would vote. Thus the question about voting for someone who favors federally funded murder of the unborn.

[soonerloyal]

Goodness, can't take a little teasing not can we?? Need to get a thicker skin if you're going to make dumbarse comments like the "government works well", hon.

Ask any of the car dealers who STILL haven't been paid for "Cash for Clunkers" how well the governments working. And that's just one easy example.

Dumbarse cooments are in the eye of the beholder. ;) I love the teasing, it gets the blood goin'. :P But I didn't make the original comment a few of you seem so upset over:



The bottom line is - it is a good argument. The government runs many things quite well. Regardless of who runs it, private, public or government, there is always waste and poor management to combat.

But yeah, I do think the guvmint does run some things well. Do you think nothing they do is done well? Or is it just under the new Admin that you think things are done poorly?

SS, Medicare, Vet Admin. - all gubmint. Problems, yep, but overall done quite well.


So did you vote against Obama, or did you think Jesus would vote for federally funding killing of the unborn???? Just curious...


i'm pretty sure you have to turn a blind eye to something to vote for D or R if you align yourself with Jesus

I am a born-again daughter of God. I think that the unborn are people from the second of conception. I also believe that politicians do not have the right to tell a woman she must bear a child. It's too close to telling a woman she isn't allowed to. No, I don't believe that one view cancels out another. In this world, not the one to come, things aren't so black and white.

Many of the abortions about which have been argued have been misunderstood. Contrary to what O'Reilly and his ilk peddle, almost all late-term abortions involve babies that have catastrophic and life-ending or -threatening problems. The mothers, with very few exceptions, are devastated and are carrying dead children in their bodies, or ones who will die moments after birth. Until/unless we ourselves have been in that situation, it's speculation at its lowest level to cast judgement. I cannot imagine the suffering a woman endures under such a crushing load. These are medical as well as mental & meotional health issues and as such should be covered by insurance IMO.

Re: Cash for Clunkers? Some haven't gotten reimbursed?! It's been weeks!! *screeeeeeam* EGAD, a delay in government? What's this world coming to? That's NEVER happened before!! :rolleyes:

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Yep, and we can thank Richard Shelby, Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, Thad Cochran, Jim DeMint, Saxby Chambliss, etc. for that. After all, they won't support American auto makers, but they made sure the foreign auto makers in their states did hugely well.

Shelby: $3 million in federal funds to improve roads near the Hyundai plant in Alabama after the state gave $250 million to the Korean automaker. He opposed loans to the U.S. automakers, but for foreign auto companies, his Alabama provided more than three quarters of a billion dollars. In addition to the quarter billion he made sure Hyundai was presented, he and Bama handed another quarter billion to German Daimler for a Mercedes-Benz plant, nearly a quarter billion to Japanese Honda and $29 million to Japanese Toyota.

McConnell: Opposed loans to the American "Big Three", but Kentucky's been providing grants for Toyota to the tune of $371 million from taxpayers since 1986.

Cochran: Another politician who isn't fine with helping American companies, but is content with foreign governments providing subsidies* to the transplant automakers in Mississippi. And he's okay with spending state & federal money to help foreign automakers locate manufacturing plants in the U.S. - again, especially in his state (*It is interesting to me as a side note that nationalized health care in those countries, such as Japan and Germany, serves as one such subsidy).

DeMint: Says our government shouldn't get into the auto industry, but he forgot to specify he meant the American auto industry. South Carolina and DeMint provided $230 million in gifts to the German auto company BMW.

Toyota has manufacturing plants in Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Texas; Georgia has S. Korea's Kia and Germany's Daimler/Chrysler. Chambliss represents GA and Cornyn represents TX.

That's only a tiny slice of political information chock-full of chewy lobbying, special-interest group goodness.

P.S. I'm sure it's a simple coincidence that while American auto workers are unionized, these foreign-owned plants are not.

You know, I'm not much for defending any of these a-holes, but almost all of those tax breaks are state deals approved by state legislatures, not US Senators.

The bailout of GM and Chrysler was a bailout of the UAW. And it's not really the UAW's fault that they make a product that nobody wants, but they do have a great deal to do with the American automakers not being able to compete on cost.

Where does the rewarding of failure end? GM's market share has been declining for years. And there's a reason for that that has nothing to do with tax breaks to locate a plant in somebody's state. Those American workers that make cars for Toyota, Honda, BMW aren't less of Americans because they are not beholden to some AFL-CIO goon.

[OklahomaTuba]

SS, Medicare, Vet Admin. - all gubmint. Problems, yep, but overall done quite well.
SS & Medicare, really??? I mean, really???

This is like saying Madoff was overall quite good at investing.

Sure, everyone is happy with what's happening until we all figure out its one big-*** ponzi scheme that threatens to wipe out the future of this country.

[GrapevineSooner]

Re: Cash for Clunkers? Some haven't gotten reimbursed?! It's been weeks!! *screeeeeeam* EGAD, a delay in government? What's this world coming to? That's NEVER happened before!! :rolleyes:

Maybe we're up to 5% of the total claims being processed. At this rate, it'll be over a year before all these claims are paid in a program that was initially supposed to run from July 1st to October 31st.

Now imagine if these dealerships were physician's practices. Doesn't encourage a lot of docs to take part in the program, now, does it?

I'm not necessarily opposed to any government entity providing healthcare. If states want to create their own, more power to them. But Amtrak has turned a profit and even Obama admitted that the Post Office, compared to private couriers, is having problems.

And some people trust the government to be able to administer a healthcare plan when they can't even pay dealers on a timely basis?

[OklahomaTuba]

Many of the abortions about which have been argued have been misunderstood. Contrary to what O'Reilly and his ilk peddle, almost all late-term abortions involve babies that have catastrophic and life-ending or -threatening problems.Ok, but most abortions don't happen in the late term.

And most happen to babies that would otherwise be just fine. So if you believe that life begins at conception, which I also believe, then how can you claim to be voting as Jesus would when supporting an act which terminates life???

[Tulsa_Fireman]

That's fine and all that its a"public trust", but its still a private company driving the damn ambulances around town.

Again, you're wrong.

They're employees under contract to EMSA via Paramedic Plus, a non-profit public trust entity.

I'll give an example, even though you got a brain boner for painting them in a privatized light and won't listen anyway.

Joe Christian wants to open a mission for the homeless. He sits down with his lawyers and accountants and starts a non-profit organization with various funding sources and physical infrastructure, specifically an older building in downtown with a commercial kitchen. Now as good a guy as Joe Christian is, he knows jack squat about preparing food in large amounts to handle the volume of people in need of a hot meal. So as an expense to his non-profit, his organization hires Bill's Temp Service who in turn supplies appropriately trained personnel to Joe's homeless shelter to prepare and serve meals on a yearly contract basis. They are directed and managed by Joe, held to account by Joe, yet not employees of Joe or his non-profit. They're employees of Bill's Temp Service, who is under contract with Joe Christian's Homeless Emporium of Awesomeness.

So while employees of Bill's Temp Service are the ones throwing beans on the plate, the individual person operates solely at the direction and whim of Joe. They abide by the rules and regulations of Joe. They perform as dictated by Joe. They are everything BUT employees of Joe, operating under an explicit contract established between Joe and Bill's Temp Service that is regulated and managed by not only Joe, but given oversight Dept. of Health, the agencies/people that supply funding, and the guidance of Joe's pastor.

So again, you are wrong, Tuba.

In the case of EMSA, the employees of Paramedics Plus operate under the rules, regulations, and policies dictated by the Office of the Medical Director, the State Dept. of Health, the State Dept. of Transportation, city ordinance, state statute, and the guidance of the administrative staff of the EMSA trust, along with the establishment that operations are conducted as an extension of the license of the Medical Director, who establishes protocols for general operations, the manner of treatment, how it will be provided, and by whom. Everything they do (employees of Paramedics Plus) is managed by a number of agencies, all public entities, all directed to the employees and managed by the EMSA trust. Who are in turn employees under contract with the EMSA trust through Paramedics Plus. The only private entity in all of this is Paramedics Plus, who are under contract, forced mandatory federal, state, and municipal oversight, and managed by the EMSA trust.

In other words, they are a public safety entity, though not entitled public safety officer status as per the city charter, due to their being non-sworn employees of a contract service directed and guided solely by public entities, existing at the whim of the public entity. In other words, NOT a private ambulance service in any way, shape, or form.

[OklahomaTuba]

Again, you're wrong.

They're employees under contract to EMSA via Paramedic Plus, a non-profit public trust entity.Wait, so Paramedic plus isn't an LLC now?? That's odd, I don't know many non-private limited liability companies. For profit or not.

[My Opinion Matters]

I have nothing to add this thread except that a private firefighting force is actually a pretty old idea. This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Licinius_Crassus) was doing it 2,000 years ago, and it put him well on his way to being one of the wealthiest men in world history. So the way I see it those of you that support unregulated, unfettered, and unethical capitalism should be all for this idea.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

A slip of the tongue.

Don't be dense.

[OklahomaTuba]

Ahh ok. ;)

[soonerloyal]

Ok, but most abortions don't happen in the late term.

And most happen to babies that would otherwise be just fine. So if you believe that life begins at conception, which I also believe, then how can you claim to be voting as Jesus would when supporting an act which terminates life???

I have friends that ask the same of others who support the death penalty and State-sponsored torture, but I'd get the difference seen by some.

How can I "claim"? Because, like you I know that whatever I and my Heavenly Father share in our relationship is perfected by His undying & perfect love for us. You and I don't agree on some things, but until we're both sitting there at His knee when this is all over, neither of us will know exactly who is wrong or right.

And since neither you or I have a greater insight into or relationship with Father than the other does...guess we'll have to wait & see. Meanwhile, I suppose our views on what constitutes "governmental meddling in private lives" will have to continue flowing in different directions.

Bless ya, Bro. :)

[soonerloyal]

Maybe we're up to 5% of the total claims being processed. At this rate, it'll be over a year before all these claims are paid in a program that was initially supposed to run from July 1st to October 31st.

Now imagine if these dealerships were physician's practices. Doesn't encourage a lot of docs to take part in the program, now, does it?

I'm not necessarily opposed to any government entity providing healthcare. If states want to create their own, more power to them. But Amtrak has turned a profit and even Obama admitted that the Post Office, compared to private couriers, is having problems.

And some people trust the government to be able to administer a healthcare plan when they can't even pay dealers on a timely basis?

Timely basis? Even with the problems that surface...doctors get paid faster & more easily through Medicare than they do through private insurers. We've spent more time trying to navigate and fight private insurance companies for people than navigating the VA for help for my son. The VA is able to buy medicines at a much lower cost because of collective bargaining, something which would greatly improve overall costs if used, well, overall. There's nothing wrong at all with profit - it's when profit greed decides someone isn't going to get care or ends up dying to maximize it.

I'd rather see my fellow citizens cared for and help pay for it across the board, than have someone die or suffer trying to beg neighbors for help in a health crisis, like Doctor Death Inhofe glibly suggests.

[King Crimson]

the privatize everything honking is intellectual laziness and ease of thought driven by the radio hosts.

the magic coin of the "market" in combination with the right-wing nationalism is pretty hilarious. because a true "free-market" doesn't give a crap about national boundaries...but you guys act like it will.

[soonerloyal]

You know, I'm not much for defending any of these a-holes, but almost all of those tax breaks are state deals approved by state legislatures, not US Senators.

The bailout of GM and Chrysler was a bailout of the UAW. And it's not really the UAW's fault that they make a product that nobody wants, but they do have a great deal to do with the American automakers not being able to compete on cost.

Where does the rewarding of failure end? GM's market share has been declining for years. And there's a reason for that that has nothing to do with tax breaks to locate a plant in somebody's state. Those American workers that make cars for Toyota, Honda, BMW aren't less of Americans because they are not beholden to some AFL-CIO goon.

Where does the rewarding of failure end? Apparently not at the pockets of the wealthiest on Wall Street. Those companies were on the verge of failure, too. Yet we were to be convinced that it would be the end of life itself if we didn't pony up billions to haul their arses out of the fire. Those companies were grossly mismanaged, declining for years, bled out billions while paying the CEOs staggering sums, while the lower echelon were downsized, let go - and suffered accordingly. Where's the outrage for that? Apparently it's the job of the middle class to maintain the lifestyles to which the top tier have grown accustomed, and our job to make sure that we don't bother ourselves with trying desperately to hang on to what we've managed to scrape together.

Apparently, not at the pockets of shareholders either. Goons? I'm supposed to believe that unions are bad? Fair wages, decent working conditions, oversight of how people are treated, are the downfall of business? People paying into pension funds and - gasp - expecting to have something when they retired were the breaking of big business? :eek: Those American workers at Toyota are just as deserving of a fair wage and retirement than those at any other factory. If we care for one worker, the other worker deserves the same concern.

It's not a few more dollars an hour that have a great deal to do with the American automakers not being able to compete on cost. It's being able to capitalize on foreign workers and little to no oversight of human mistreatment and hiring non-Americans to maximize profits at the expense of Americans that has a great deal to do with it. I realize auto building isn't in the same category of paying Chinese preteens a 10 cents a day to skip U.S. minimum wage restrictions, but it's exactly the same profit-first, worker-be-damned principle. And it's added to the damage of all that used to make our country so economically strong and superior.

Slave wages work in other countries, but our corporations "can't compete". Waahhh. Sure they can - let's revisit tariffs. Other countries make us pay, we used to do the same. Complaints about not being able to compete says more about our horrid trade policies than it does about demands for fair wages vs. the bottom line.

I'm trying hard to understand the view of "If you can't afford to be well, not die in a fire, have police protection, or want good work conditions...you don't deserve 'em, because I got mine ha ha". But frankly I'm having trouble doing so. I don't begrudge anyone money, at all. I do begrudge people making lots of that money at the deep expense of others.

So, apparently, rewarding failure ends when the wealthiest say it does. That's a part of WWJD that isn't being reconciled. Few are saying "We don't want to work, coddle us". But many are saying, "We work proudly. Just don't take what little we have earned to boost what excess you have."

"Whatsoever you do unto the least, you do unto Him."

[49r]

Didn't you read Grapes of Wrath? Don't you remember how great Okies had it back then when corporations weren't beholden to these rogue unions and wages were determined by the market almighty?

Tariffs...psh. The free market will work things out just fine!

[soonerloyal]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a14/KevAndLori/Posting%20Photos/LOLCatEuros.jpg

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Where does the rewarding of failure end? Apparently not at the pockets of the wealthiest on Wall Street. Those companies were on the verge of failure, too. Yet we were to be convinced that it would be the end of life itself if we didn't pony up billions to haul their arses out of the fire. Those companies were grossly mismanaged, declining for years, bled out billions while paying the CEOs staggering sums, while the lower echelon were downsized, let go - and suffered accordingly. Where's the outrage for that? Apparently it's the job of the middle class to maintain the lifestyles to which the top tier have grown accustomed, and our job to make sure that we don't bother ourselves with trying desperately to hang on to what we've managed to scrape together.

Apparently, not at the pockets of shareholders either. Goons? I'm supposed to believe that unions are bad? Fair wages, decent working conditions, oversight of how people are treated, are the downfall of business? People paying into pension funds and - gasp - expecting to have something when they retired were the breaking of big business? :eek: Those American workers at Toyota are just as deserving of a fair wage and retirement than those at any other factory. If we care for one worker, the other worker deserves the same concern.

It's not a few more dollars an hour that have a great deal to do with the American automakers not being able to compete on cost. It's being able to capitalize on foreign workers and little to no oversight of human mistreatment and hiring non-Americans to maximize profits at the expense of Americans that has a great deal to do with it. I realize auto building isn't in the same category of paying Chinese preteens a 10 cents a day to skip U.S. minimum wage restrictions, but it's exactly the same profit-first, worker-be-damned principle. And it's added to the damage of all that used to make our country so economically strong and superior.

Slave wages work in other countries, but our corporations "can't compete". Waahhh. Sure they can - let's revisit tariffs. Other countries make us pay, we used to do the same. Complaints about not being able to compete says more about our horrid trade policies than it does about demands for fair wages vs. the bottom line.

I'm trying hard to understand the view of "If you can't afford to be well, not die in a fire, have police protection, or want good work conditions...you don't deserve 'em, because I got mine ha ha". But frankly I'm having trouble doing so. I don't begrudge anyone money, at all. I do begrudge people making lots of that money at the deep expense of others.

So, apparently, rewarding failure ends when the wealthiest say it does. That's a part of WWJD that isn't being reconciled. Few are saying "We don't want to work, coddle us". But many are saying, "We work proudly. Just don't take what little we have earned to boost what excess you have."

"Whatsoever you do unto the least, you do unto Him."


I agree with you about the Wall Street bailouts. It's the same thing in my view as the auto industry bailout and I've posted as such on these boards.

I'm not sure who you're targeting with working conditions diatribe. Are you saying that the American workers who work in the Toyota and Honda plants are mal-treated?

I suspect you're talking about all of the other outsourcing and offshoring. I've been dealing with Offshoring in my company for several years now. I haven't been comfortable with my job security for quite some time. Do I think protectionism's the answer? It seems like we've tried that before and it didn't work that well. I think we need to address the underlying cause of our inability to compete, which is our poor education system and the breakdown of societal structures.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

DEY TOOK ER JERBS!

[delhalew]

tHIS IS STILL A JOKE...RIGHT?

Sotty I've been drinking...a lot.