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TopDawg
8/26/2009, 06:30 PM
Just like the health care ones.


Heated partisan debate over President Obama's health care plan, erupting at town hall meetings and in the blogosphere, has more to do with our illogical thought processes than reality, sociologists are finding.

The problem: People on both sides of the political aisle often work backward from a firm conclusion to find supporting facts, rather than letting evidence inform their views.

The result: A survey out this week finds voters split strongly along party lines regarding their beliefs about key parts of the plan. Example: About 91 percent of Republicans think the proposal would increase wait times for surgeries and other health services, while only 37 percent of Democrats think so.

Irrational thinking

A totally rational person would lay out - and evaluate objectively - the pros and cons of a health care overhaul before choosing to support or oppose a plan. But we humans are not so rational, according to Steve Hoffman, a visiting professor of sociology at the University of Buffalo.

"People get deeply attached to their beliefs," Hoffman said. "We form emotional attachments that get wrapped up in our personal identity and sense of morality, irrespective of the facts of the matter."

And to keep our sense of personal and social identity, Hoffman said, we tend to use a backward type of reasoning in order to justify such beliefs.

Similarly, past research by Dolores Albarracin, a psychology professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, has shown in particular that people who are less confident in their beliefs are more reluctant than others to seek out opposing perspectives. So these people avoid counter evidence all together. The same could apply to the health care debate, Albarracin said.

"Even if you have free press, freedom of speech, it doesn't make people listen to all points of view," she said.

Just about everybody is vulnerable to the phenomenon of holding onto our beliefs even in the face of iron-clad evidence to the contrary, Hoffman said. Why? Because it's hard to do otherwise. "It's an amazing challenge to constantly break out the Nietzschean hammer and destroy your world view and belief system and evaluate others," Hoffman said.

Just the facts you need

Hoffman's idea is based on a study he and colleagues did of nearly 50 participants, who were all Republican and reported believing in the link between the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks and Saddam Hussein. Participants were given the mounting evidence that no link existed and then asked to justify their belief.

(The findings should apply to any political bent. "We're not making the claim that Democratic or liberal partisans don't do the same thing. They do," Hoffman said.)

All but one held onto the belief, using a variety of so-called motivated reasoning strategies. "Motivated reasoning is essentially starting with a conclusion you hope to reach and then selectively evaluating evidence in order to reach that conclusion," explained Hoffman's colleague, sociologist Andrew Perrin of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

For instance, some participants used a backward chain of reasoning in which the individual supported the decision to go to war and so assumed any evidence necessary to support that decision, including the link between 9/11 and Hussein.

"For these voters, the sheer fact that we were engaged in war led to a post-hoc search for a justification for that war," Hoffman said. "People were basically making up justifications for the fact that we were at war."

Their research is published in the most recent issue of the journal Sociological Inquiry.

Hot health care debate

The proposed health care plan has all the right ingredients for such wonky reasoning, the researchers say.

The issue is both complex (no single correct answer), emotionally charged and potentially history-changing, while debates often occur with like-minded peers in town hall settings. The result is staunch supporters and just-as-staunch critics who are sticking to their guns.

"The health care debate would be vulnerable to motivated reasoning, because it is, and has become, so highly emotionally and symbolically charged," Perrin said during a telephone interview, adding that images equating the plan with Nazi Germany illustrate the symbolic nature of the arguments.

In addition, the town hall settings make for even more rigid beliefs. That's because changing one's mind about a complex issue can rattle a person's sense of identity and sense of belonging within a community. If everyone around you is a neighbor or friend, you'd be less likely to change your opinion, the researchers say.

"In these one-shot town hall meetings, where you have an emotionally laden complex issue like health care, it's very likely you're going to get these ramped up emotionally laden debates. They're going to be hot debates," Hoffman told LiveScience.

Two-sided discussion

To bring the facts from both sides to the table, Hoffman suggests venues where a heterogeneous group of people can meet, those for and against the proposed health care system overhaul. And at least some of these gatherings should include just a handful of people. In groups of more than about six people, one or two members will tend to dominate the discussion, he said.

For either side, logical arguments might not be the key.

"I think strategically it's important that the Obama administration and advocates of a health care plan really pay attention to how people feel and the symbolism they are seeing, and not just the nuts and bolts of the policy," Perrin said. "People don't reason with pure facts and logic alone."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090826/sc_livescience/healthcaredebatebasedontotallackoflogic

Interesting story.

LosAngelesSooner
8/26/2009, 06:38 PM
Good post.

homerSimpsonsBrain
8/26/2009, 07:15 PM
I saw that article and the South Oval was the first thing that came to mind.

Octavian
8/26/2009, 08:00 PM
so now YahooNews has concluded --based on 50-person study-- that the majority of the public that disagrees with the health care proposals (the same public that voted for Obama) are just illogical?


I see. That is.....interesting.


And the Administration needs to grapple more with symbolism and less about policy? That's odd...since their campaign last year was chalked full of visualized symbolism, emotionally charged rhetorical chants, and vague promises.


The HC debate is the really the first major initiative launched that's been more policy-heavy. The proposals are on paper....people can read it. They have...and they've been weighing the potential outcomes....and most people aren't buying it.


So now it must be because they're illogical? Sounds like one side is losing a pretty big argument and they're lashing out to place blame on any and every group or entity they can find...except themselves, for launching a bad plan.


And...a 50-person academic study is needed to arrive at the conclusion that people aren't always logical? Any person off the street could have informed them of that and they could have saved some grant money.

homerSimpsonsBrain
8/26/2009, 08:13 PM
I dont think health care in particular was the point. They were just using it as an example because its the hot political topic. I think its safe to say the war in Iraq would follow the same lines. But then again, they could have come and read 99% of the posts on here and come to the same conclusion.



(The findings should apply to any political bent. "We're not making the claim that Democratic or liberal partisans don't do the same thing. They do," Hoffman said.)

Octavian
8/26/2009, 08:22 PM
in the middle of a health care debate, an article appears on a very POTUS-friendly site that's focused on the relationship between illogical people and politics and concludes with the ways in which these illogical people are influencing said health care debate....and what the POTUS can then do about it.


and the health care debate isn't the particular point?


with all due respect, that conclusion just might not be logical

homerSimpsonsBrain
8/26/2009, 09:35 PM
So are you saying livescience.com or yahoo is "very POTUS-Friendly"?

OUDoc
8/27/2009, 08:33 AM
Did this thread just make that article's point?

OklahomaTuba
8/27/2009, 09:42 AM
"I think strategically it's important that the Obama administration and advocates of a health care plan really pay attention to how people feel and the symbolism they are seeing, and not just the nuts and bolts of the policy," Perrin said. "People don't reason with pure facts and logic alone."

So Obama shouldn't talk about the "nuts and bolts" of taking over 1/6 of this nations economy & spending trillions of dollars we don't have, but rather just try to get people to feel better about it?

Might be one of the dumbest f'king things I've ever read. Ever.

OKLA21FAN
8/27/2009, 09:58 AM
sooooooooooooooooo........

what do we do now in the SO? :pop:

Osce0la
8/27/2009, 10:51 AM
:confused:










;)

GrapevineSooner
8/27/2009, 10:56 AM
The 2009 debate to reform Healthcare = The 2005 debate to reform Social Security.

Only the political parties have changed sides.

Fraggle145
8/27/2009, 12:18 PM
twisted out of logic by post #7, brilliant!

homerSimpsonsBrain
8/27/2009, 12:18 PM
Did this thread just make that article's point?

I think so. Its interesting that folks dont appear to be able to step back from an emotional issue and evaluate it based on the entire set of facts. They seize on one line that they think fits their argument. I've heard "biblical" debates that work the same way. One or two words in some obscure verse validates their entire world view. And anyone that disagrees with that view is "dumb". They cant see any merit in any other point of view.

I've certainly caught myself filtering some issue that I felt strongly about that way. Its really pretty hard to force yourself to step back and consider the issue dispassionately. And I think message boards are probably not ideal for rational discussion. <stating the incredibly obvious>. Football, yes. Serious discussion, not so much.

yermom
8/27/2009, 12:28 PM
rational football discussions? here?

homerSimpsonsBrain
8/27/2009, 12:50 PM
I never said the football discussions were rational. Anywhere.

:)

yermom
8/27/2009, 12:54 PM
oh, ok :D

tommieharris91
8/27/2009, 01:04 PM
twisted out of logic by post #7, brilliant!

The train derailed on post #4.

NormanPride
8/27/2009, 01:06 PM
The train derailed on post #4.

Why do you hate trains?

Fraggle145
8/27/2009, 01:06 PM
The train derailed on post #4.

True... but I think post #7 sealed it in the time warp of us/them crazyland.

Edit: To clarify... Post #6 is basically "Its biased for the president" post #7 "It is?"

So we had someone say this article is crap because of politics and then someone asking about those politics, which is usually how the cycle starts.

Ya its a little limp. So sue me. :D

tommieharris91
8/27/2009, 01:08 PM
Why do you hate trains?

They scare me. I got on one once. It moved too fast for me. I was scarred for life. That and they make me wait in traffic.

Fraggle145
8/27/2009, 01:09 PM
run a train? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=run%20a%20train) :confused:

Pricetag
8/27/2009, 01:40 PM
And I think message boards are probably not ideal for rational discussion. <stating the incredibly obvious>. Football, yes. Serious discussion, not so much.
This is the root of the problem right here. The loudest people in politics today approach it just like they approach any spectator sport, as a venue to root on the good guys against the bad guys, with bonus stuff to get pissed off about. I really don't think they're a majority of people, but they're so loud, they discourage the meeker, more level headed folks. Low voter turnout is not because the loud folks aren't getting out to vote.

homerSimpsonsBrain
8/28/2009, 04:05 AM
True... but I think post #7 sealed it in the time warp of us/them crazyland.

Edit: To clarify... Post #6 is basically "Its biased for the president" post #7 "It is?"

So we had someone say this article is crap because of politics and then someone asking about those politics, which is usually how the cycle starts.

Ya its a little limp. So sue me. :D


Interesting interpretation. I really wasnt asking about Octavians politics. I just wanted to know which of the sites he thought was biased. I'm assuming its Yahoo but thought I'd make sure. I dont follow the South Oval all that much but when I have, Octavian has been one of the folks whos generally pretty thoughtful (but maybe I'm thinking of the football board where we all agree. Texas sux).
:D

Octavian
8/28/2009, 12:16 PM
Interesting interpretation. I really wasnt asking about Octavians politics. I just wanted to know which of the sites he thought was biased. I'm assuming its Yahoo but thought I'd make sure. I dont follow the South Oval all that much but when I have, Octavian has been one of the folks whos generally pretty thoughtful (but maybe I'm thinking of the football board where we all agree. Texas sux).
:D


yes, it's Yahoo. Its my homepage (even though I probably use google more when I really want to use an engine) and their political news headlines have been consistently favorable toward BO as a candidate and as a POTUS.


I'm not saying there's some black helicopter conspiracy -- I don't know much about Yahoo as a corporation and don't know if they have an economic incentive to support the specific policies or if they're philosophically aligned with them, or if they're just catering their news to what they perceive as popular sentiment for a popular POTUS. It'd be interesting to go back and see how their headlines depicted GWB post-9/11 and in the build-up to the '03 invasion. They might have been similarly favorable toward that administration when it was popular.


It may just be they want to appear as being whichever side is currently favored by the majority of consumers, but the wording of their headlines and the stories which they've chosen to publicize have been more than generous to the current administration throughout '09.


And really....you don't need a 21st century academic study to conclude that human beings are irrational. As a species, we recognized this about ourselves several millennia ago. But after doing so, the Yahoo-linked article married the illogical nature of mankind (in politics) with the public's growing disapproval of the health care initiatives....and left the insinuation that people aren't buying it because they're irrational creatures being duped or manipulated.

Octavian
8/28/2009, 12:21 PM
and if it's the case that they just want to be popular, Yahoo should spend more time flushing out the Reggie Bush saga and landing USC in the probation doghouse -- they'd be cheered by the unwashed from coast to coast ;)

Chuck Bao
8/28/2009, 03:39 PM
I have no idea about yahoo.com content providers and editors and if they tend to lean any particular way on the political spectrum.

For the stock market, I do trust yahoo as a fair and balanced source for stock market news. They report other people’s opinions. I don’t go there for their Yahoo contributors’ opinions, but I guess you can say that their opinions are clearly expressed in who they interview and quote.

Reporters call me all the time and they are just fishing for a catchy quotable stock market phrase for the day. I know these people and they are not out on an agenda. They just want to write the damn article and get paid for it. And, I don’t think they’re paid much anyway.

The shock jocks and opinion leaders with an agenda get paid. I somehow don’t think yahoo is aiming for that.

That article was probably border line, but the editor let it pass.

I do know that I sometimes have to write about political issues in Thailand (and I am certainly not comparing anything I write or edit to be anywhere close to yahoo), but I always aim for the tone of the article to be at least a bit sympathetic to the current administration even if I don’t agree. It is probably more that than prevailing popular opinion or trying to skew the news.

That's my two cents, for what it is worth today.

Cam
8/29/2009, 11:12 AM
This reminds me of the old man who stands up at a town hall and states: "Keep your damn gov't hands away from my Medicare." He's clearly a retired rocket surgeon. :rolleyes:

It's time for people to stop being sheep and read/think/decide for themselves. That goes for both sides of the aisle.

StoopTroup
8/29/2009, 11:55 AM
This reminds me of the old man who stands up at a town hall and states: "Keep your damn gov't hands away from my Medicare." He's clearly a retired rocket surgeon. :rolleyes:

It's time for people to stop being sheep and read/think/decide for themselves. That goes for both sides of the aisle.

I was listening to McCain's last Town Hall and this old guy got up and even touted that he hadn't hardly paid into the Social Security system enough to receive the wonderful benefits he was receiving and then went on to express worry about Obama's promise of free health care.

These folks show up all outraged that the Government is spending to much while they are spending every dime I the taxpayer puts into the system that I will more than likely never receive benefits from.

It all boggles the mind.

OU Adonis
8/29/2009, 12:22 PM
I got nuthin'