A serious topic that likely, won't be taken seriously...

[the_ouskull]

...for reasons of which, while I may be informed, I will not discuss.

-----

How do you feel about the state of the written word in our society; our culture, today? Do you feel that things like grammar, spelling, correct structure and form, etc.. still mean something; still matter, in today's digital world?

-----

I could rant on and on and on about the bastardization of the language thanks to the advent of digital messaging. In fact, I have... P.M. me if you'd like me to e-mail you some of my works on the topic... or Google them. They're probably still on NewsOK.com somewhere...

-----

This is simply an opinion thread. If you don't think that those things matter, then please, state why. No disrespect, (yeah, right) but I don't fully expect to get a good argument, pro-poor grammar, because writing things like "u" instead of "you" tends to take a bit of the sting out of what may or may not have been an excellent point for your side of the discussion. But, if you're willing to defend yourself, then, this would be the place.

Also, if your (pun intended - although many won't get it) the kind of person who is still looking back at the last "your" I typed, even though I acknowledged it as an intentional mistake, and are being driven as crazy by it as I am, then please, share your thoughts on the current state of affairs as well.

-----

And, to take things a step further, someone will actually "get" the joke above, and not realize the double-meaning of it, and use it in an argument, stating that I don't really know what I'm talking about, etc..

I just don't understand how someone, regardless of the forum; digital or otherwise, feels comfortable not only presenting themselves as an uneducated moron, incapable of being error-free in even the most simple of communications - and, even worse, attempts to argue with obviously more competent people using that same ignorant persona. Jules Winfield once said, "I'm trying real hard to be the shepard." Perhaps I am, too. Regardless, if you type like you're in 1st grade, this thread is for you. If you hate it when people type like lazy-*sses, this is also your thread. Take it where you will.. or hide from it as I expect...

I'm just curious as to what people genuinely think in regards to the subject. We'll call it a "professional" interest.

the_ouskull

[olevetonahill]

But I am a maroon :eek: Now dontcha feel bad about makin fun of me ?:(

[Scott D]

Because people inherently look for shortcuts.

Either that or they were dumb enough to go with a cellular provider who apparently charged(es) them by the character on their texting. :D

[mdklatt]

OMFG! LOL


I'm a total perfectionist with my writing. I take all written communication seriously, even Facebook status updates. Words matter. I even proofread and edit text messages. On the other hand, I'm not a slave to strictly correct grammar. I often take liberties with sentence structure and whatnot for rhetorical effect. Like this.



(I rewrote this post six times.)

[NormanPride]

ITT: gramar nazis pat each other on the back. Your just jealous because were younger and cooler

[picasso]

I think the mass media of today and the technical gadgetry will slowly do away with the men of letters.

[SoonerProphet]

You know it is a mixed thing with me. Here in my classroom I have a Promethean board and some devices called active expressions. These devices interact with the board and allow my students to "text" replies/answers/whatnot onto the board for discussion. It is quite cool, but it does lend itself to short hand. That is why we do two research papers in the Fall and Spring though.

[NormanPride]

Honestly, if the modern populace can correctly determine when it is appropriate to use net shorthand and when it isn't, then I have no problem. The real issues arise when teachers are getting essays handed in to them in garbled netspeak. Now, those are extreme cases - cases where before netspeak the individual may simply have been illiterate. But it is still a symptom of the blurred line between acceptable shorthand usage and the times when you need to represent your thoughts in a coherent manner.

[sooneron]

I get e-mails from my sister (Jr at OU) that I can barely decipher half the time. Between grammar/net speak and the over-utilization of yalls, it's almost laughable if it weren't so sad.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

u r t3h st00pit 4 th1z p0st lolz

[badger]

I had a friend who tried the teaching thing... she said that the students were really bad at writing and didn't take those assignments seriously.

It's one thing to purposely sound bad occasionally... but to always 1337 speek iz kinda stoop1d.

[yermom]

ITT: gramar nazis pat each other on the back. Your just jealous because were younger and cooler

my just jealousy of you when you were younger and cooler than what?

[soonermix]

lots of times people will probably just start typing and not pay attention to much of in the way of grammer because they are in the heat of the moment just trying to get their response accross

[Scott D]

I disagree mix. "valley girl speak" didn't cross over into the world of academics anywhere nearly as much as 'net shorthand' has.

[49r]

It's a time-honored tradition. The degradation of the language has been complained about for, well, since there's been the language. But whether the evolution that is occurring is due to technology or media or the "dumbing down" of society I could not say.

Many would argue that since the enlightenment things have been going downhill, to the point now that we are deeply mired in another dark ages. I personally feel this theory to be more true than not and also believe that it explains much of the modern population's behavior. Including our ignorance of common grammar rules.

My biggest pet peeve? The abhorrent misuse of commas and apostrophes that we see in the written word - specifically on internet message boards. (I freely admit that I am personally guilty of many errors myself so I try not to get too worked up about it)

[Pricetag]

Shorthand is appropriate only for typing text messages on a cellphone that does not have a QWERTY keyboard, in my opinion (almost put 'IMO' there). That method of entry is so much different than anything we've had to this point, that cutting corners without losing meaning is fine, I think. I still avoid using it. I'll skip whole words if no meaning is lost, but I won't do the "u" "b" "2" stuff.

Otherwise, proper English should be a requirement. There is no excuse these days for someone not knowing how to type on a keyboard fast enough to make shortcuts unnecessary.

I'm annoyed by the crossover of the stuff into the mainstream. I nearly came unglued at the grocery store when I saw my first "mtn dew" logo.

[CobraKai]

Also, if your (pun intended - although many won't get it) the kind of person who is still looking back at the last "your" I typed, even though I acknowledged it as an intentional mistake, and are being driven as crazy by it as I am, then please, share your thoughts on the current state of affairs as well.


That's hilarious. As soon as I read the "your" I started thinking "he used your instead of you're." Then I read your next phrase. I guess I'm one of those people. :)

[the_ouskull]

I compose notes and letters as if my great grand children are reading. I don't want to be remembered as Grandpa **** for Brains.

= Perhaps the most ingenious thing I have ever read on the topic. Thank you, sir. Once I edit this, it will be a banner that hangs in my classroom. (And once I start teaching again, too, I suppose.)

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

Perhaps this will offer those of you intelligent enough to understand not only this thread, but my purpose behind starting it, a bit of insight into my character.

What simply annoys most of you knives my eyes. I have O.C.P.D. (Google it, I don't want to bother...) Anyway, the written and spoken English language is one of the things that has to be "right" for me. I also take liberties with the language, as mdklatt joked above about doing as well. ALWAYS for effect, and never out of ignorance... or disrespect...

I just grow more and more pained by the day at the prominence of the blissfully ignorant and the uneducated masses that they follow. When people go to TV to see "real life,"to the newspaper for movie times, and to their room - to the internet - to socialize, we are in the middle of another "dark age," indeed. Simple human functions are being lost in the translation of our culture's shifting means of communication. When I go before someone else at a 4-way stop, when I have the right-of-way and go first, they often flash an angry glare at me. Potentially, my safety in question because someone ELSE was too stupid to learn the rules. That seems to be a disgusting metaphor for what is happening in the world right now. "Good enough" has become the standard, not a failure. Kids get upset when they write "u" instead of "you" on a paper and you berate them for it; both publicly and privately on the paper. I'm sorry that you're (not "your") too (not "to") f*cking stupid to know the difference, but I teach high school, not elementary school. I'd say that roughly 3rd grade (whenever teachers start teaching cursive) is long enough to allow kids to communicate like that. After that point, it's fail 'em and if their parents don't like it, f*ck 'em. Sadly, the parents that care fix the problem before it gets to that point, and the parents that don't care probably proofed the paper before the student turned it in. Ignorance begats ignorance begats ignorance. It's the Cycle of Hopelessness, and it has become a part of everybody's lives. Enjoy it while it's mild. The next step is worse... I wish William Shockley were still alive...

the_ouskull

[TheUnnamedSooner]

I'm a fairly big stickler when it comes to grammar. I make sure when I write something that it has correct punctuation, spelling, etc. However, while text messaging, the rules in my opinion changes. The reason for text messaging is to send a "quick" message to someone.

It is a lot easier to make sure spelling, punctuation, etc. is correct when using a keyboard at a computer. It is another thing trying to do the same thing on a phone. When I get emails that have the, as you call it "bastardation of english language", I get annoyed, not so much on my phone.

[C&CDean]

You are what you write. If you write like a fool, you are a fool. I see folks on these boards who never, EVER punctuate their sentences. No caps. No periods. No commas. No nothing (hah!). You know what those folks are? Lazy **********s.

I have reviewed literally thousands of written resumes of potential employees. It is an oftentimes painful experience. How can someone who has a high school diploma, a college degree, and several certifications not be able to write a complete sentence or mispell half of the words on their own personal resume? For those of you who think it doesn't matter, let me say this: I have physically thrown hundreds of resumes in the trash before meeting or interviewing the person because of a poorly written resume. If you really gave a **** about the job, you'd probably give a **** about writing a decent resume. My first impression of you - as your potential employer - is your resume. If you sound like a 9-year old ebonic texter on paper, I have to assume that's what you are. You ain't gettin' hired up in this bitch.

[beer4me]

Perhaps this will offer those of you intelligent enough to understand not only this thread, but my purpose behind starting it, a bit of insight into my character.

What simply annoys most of you knives my eyes. I have O.C.P.D. (Google it, I don't want to bother...) Anyway, the written and spoken English language is one of the things that has to be "right" for me. I also take liberties with the language, as mdklatt joked above about doing as well. ALWAYS for effect, and never out of ignorance... or disrespect...

I just grow more and more pained by the day at the prominence of the blissfully ignorant and the uneducated masses that they follow. When people go to TV to see "real life,"to the newspaper for movie times, and to their room - to the internet - to socialize, we are in the middle of another "dark age," indeed. Simple human functions are being lost in the translation of our culture's shifting means of communication. When I go before someone else at a 4-way stop, when I have the right-of-way and go first, they often flash an angry glare at me. Potentially, my safety in question because someone ELSE was too stupid to learn the rules. That seems to be a disgusting metaphor for what is happening in the world right now. "Good enough" has become the standard, not a failure. Kids get upset when they write "u" instead of "you" on a paper and you berate them for it; both publicly and privately on the paper. I'm sorry that you're (not "your") too (not "to") f*cking stupid to know the difference, but I teach high school, not elementary school. I'd say that roughly 3rd grade (whenever teachers start teaching cursive) is long enough to allow kids to communicate like that. After that point, it's fail 'em and if their parents don't like it, f*ck 'em. Sadly, the parents that care fix the problem before it gets to that point, and the parents that don't care probably proofed the paper before the student turned it in. Ignorance begats ignorance begats ignorance. It's the Cycle of Hopelessness, and it has become a part of everybody's lives. Enjoy it while it's mild. The next step is worse... I wish William Shockley were still alive...

the_ouskull

Could you not have written a longer single paragraph?

[sitzpinkler]

I'm a fairly big stickler when it comes to grammar. I make sure when I write something that it has correct punctuation, spelling, etc. However, while text messaging, the rules in my opinion changes. The reason for text messaging is to send a "quick" message to someone.

It is a lot easier to make sure spelling, punctuation, etc. is correct when using a keyboard at a computer. It is another thing trying to do the same thing on a phone. When I get emails that have the, as you call it "bastardation of english language", I get annoyed, not so much on my phone.

:D

[silverwheels]

I'm still young and I refuse to use "text speak", even when I'm texting or instant messaging, unless I'm in a serious hurry. It's just really stupid. And I can forgive simple typos on message boards, but the really bad grammar and spelling is just really annoying. If you are over the age of 14, you should be able to understand practically every proper grammatical concept of our written language. People who don't are either ignorant or lazy, both of which are big problems with Americans in general.

Also, I don't understand how it's cool to look stupid, as far as speech and writing goes. American culture is really FUBAR.

[sitzpinkler]

My big pet peeve is when people use then in place of than.

[My Opinion Matters]

As someone who made the lamentable decision to choose his username as an admittedly lame attempt to use irony to underscore the phenomena that is repsonsible for this epidemic, I'm a uniquely kindred spirit on this topic.

People have always been idiots. Like OMG WHAT A BUNCH OF TARDS. I also think it's a reasonable assumption that other people have always been aware of who the idiots were. Idiots could be identified and easily ignored, their moronic voices extinguished by the crushing weight of more enlightened (and better, much much better) people's apathy and disdain.

Which brings us to today's world. The ubiquity of the internet has blurred the line between idiot and normal person. Any old jackass, regardless of whether or not they are a suspected retard, now has a forum to voice their opinion. The internet has empowered the idiots that humanity has ignored for millenia, and they're not afraid to share their inane opinions loudly and frequently.

Of course the biggest problem with idiots they don't even realize they're idiots. You can't help them. You can't stage an intervention. They're convinced they're actually pretty clever and original, and that you are the idiot.

So, yeah, it's entirely hopeless.

[olevetonahill]

What if yer 59 and aint lookin fer a jorb and just really dont give a **** what some of the nazis think ?:D

[swardboy]

Yea verily, that which passeth for the King's english is an abomination! Methinks the written word shall pass into oblivion, and the scribe, with cherished pen in hand, shall become a byword unto the nations!

No, really, I'm with you on this 'skull. Although my prejudiced mind thinks it's a part of the hip hop influence on the culture.

But you know what really ticks me off? I was taught to walk facing the oncoming traffic from third grade on. When I'm walking and some asstard is approaching me on the same side of the road I don't even acknowledge he/she exists.

[49r]

As someone who made the lamentable decision to choose his username as an admittedly lame attempt to use irony to underscore the phenomena that is repsonsible for this epidemic, I'm a uniquely kindred spirit on this topic.

People have always been idiots. Like OMG WHAT A BUNCH OF TARDS. I also think it's a reasonable assumption that other people have always been aware of who the idiots were. Idiots could be identified and easily ignored, their moronic voices extinguished by the crushing weight of more enlightened (and better, much much better) people's apathy and disdain.

Which brings us to today's world. The ubiquity of the internet has blurred the line between idiot and normal person. Any old jackass, regardless of whether or not they are a suspected retard, now has a forum to voice their opinion. The internet has empowered the idiots that humanity has ignored for millenia, and they're not afraid to share their inane opinions loudly and frequently.

Of course the biggest problem with idiots they don't even realize they're idiots. You can't help them. You can't stage an intervention. They're convinced they're actually pretty clever and original, and that you are the idiot.

So, yeah, it's entirely hopeless.

I've always understood your username and why you chose it. I don't think I would have been brave enough to choose it myself though. :)

I blame good healthcare for the dumbing down (on average) of modern society. In the past, stupid people were not as well able to keep themselves healthy and alive and less likely to procreate as they are able to now. More stupid parents = more and more stupid babies. (See Mike Judge's "Idiocracy")

Better technology makes these idiots more likely to communicate their stupidity to broader audiences and spread their stupidity. The cycle continues. It seems like despite all our ego and hubris, the human race is destined to eventually eradicate itself. Probably due to some really stupid preventable problem. It's destiny, I suppose.

[Scott D]

Could you not have written a longer single paragraph?

if you have to ask this question, then you really haven't seen the body of work on this message board. ;)

[Scott D]

Also, I don't understand how it's cool to look stupid, as far as speech and writing goes. American culture is really FUBAR.

it's not so much being cool to look stupid as it is more looking cool by appearing to look stupid.

[Scott D]

You are what you write. If you write like a fool, you are a fool. I see folks on these boards who never, EVER punctuate their sentences. No caps. No periods. No commas. No nothing (hah!). You know what those folks are? Lazy **********s.

I have reviewed literally thousands of written resumes of potential employees. It is an oftentimes painful experience. How can someone who has a high school diploma, a college degree, and several certifications not be able to write a complete sentence or mispell half of the words on their own personal resume? For those of you who think it doesn't matter, let me say this: I have physically thrown hundreds of resumes in the trash before meeting or interviewing the person because of a poorly written resume. If you really gave a **** about the job, you'd probably give a **** about writing a decent resume. My first impression of you - as your potential employer - is your resume. If you sound like a 9-year old ebonic texter on paper, I have to assume that's what you are. You ain't gettin' hired up in this bitch.

And here I wondered why I continue to get potential employers asking me what a Regional Director of Personal Relations for Extensive Networking Corporation does. Also why I don't get call backs except for when they wish to make use of my employees. ;)

[My Opinion Matters]

I've always understood your username and why you chose it. I don't think I would have been brave enough to choose it myself though. :)

I blame good healthcare for the dumbing down (on average) of modern society. In the past, stupid people were not as well able to keep themselves healthy and alive and less likely to procreate as they are able to now. More stupid parents = more and more stupid babies. (See Mike Judge's "Idiocracy")

Better technology makes these idiots more likely to communicate their stupidity to broader audiences and spread their stupidity. The cycle continues. It seems like despite all our ego and hubris, the human race is destined to eventually eradicate itself. Probably due to some really stupid preventable problem. It's destiny, I suppose.

I think warning labels should be removed from everything. Things would work themselves out.

[Scott D]

I think warning labels should be removed from everything. Things would work themselves out.

only if you remove the ability for the Darwinian's families to sue for damages due the removal of said labels.

[the_ouskull]

Exactly... but trying to back-track all the way to the beginning of the cycle is what is futile... and frustrating as H*ll.

As for the long paragraph, it was one of the liberties to which I was referring. When I rant, I tend to do so without a break (or a breath), Denis Leary-style.

the_ouskull

[King Crimson]

try reading college papers sometime. talk about depressing.

[Scott D]

actually the worst part about high school and college papers is that even Microsoft Word has a grammar checker.

[Pricetag]

I blame good healthcare for the dumbing down (on average) of modern society. In the past, stupid people were not as well able to keep themselves healthy and alive and less likely to procreate as they are able to now. More stupid parents = more and more stupid babies. (See Mike Judge's "Idiocracy")
Doctor in Waiting Room: Clevon is lucky to be alive. He attempted to jump a jet ski from a lake into a swimming pool and impaled his crotch on an iron gate. But thanks to advances in stem cell research and the fine work of Doctors Krinsky and Altschuler, he should regain full reproductive function again.

Clevon: [in the background] Get your hands off my junk!

[the_ouskull]

Exactly. That film did a good a job as anything else of explaining the dysgenic downturn that we're currently right in the middle of.

Edit: Before you think that I'm "busted," as someone attempts to do later, for ending that sentence with a preposition, just keep reading the thread before posting a reply, please. Don't believe me...? Then note the original sig below. I was up to something from the beginning... :D

the_ouninja

[the_ouskull]

try reading college papers sometime. talk about depressing.

In college, it's more depressing on a certain level because you know that they should know better, but it still doesn't compare to trying to grade "legit" essays from high school freshmen who haven't even been required to write their (full) name, date, and assignment on a page in 9+ years of schools. Trust me.

(And, if you don't believe me, I saved some of them... I pull them out whenever I need a good laugh. Seriously...)

the_ouskull

[adoniijahsooner]

Yea verily, that which passeth for the King's english is an abomination! Methinks the written word shall pass into oblivion, and the scribe, with cherished pen in hand, shall become a byword unto the nations!

No, really, I'm with you on this 'skull. Although my prejudiced mind thinks it's a part of the hip hop influence on the culture.

But you know what really ticks me off? I was taught to walk facing the oncoming traffic from third grade on. When I'm walking and some asstard is approaching me on the same side of the road I don't even acknowledge he/she exists.

Bill O'Reilly?

[OUAlumni1990]

But I am a maroon :eek: Now dontcha feel bad about makin fun of me ?:(

It's spelled moran
:D

[olevetonahill]

It's spelled moran
:D

See how dum i are :O

[CK Sooner]

See how dum i are :O

You iz smart!

:D

[olevetonahill]

You iz smartazzed!

:D

Mo better:D :cool:

[CK Sooner]

Mo better:D :cool:

You are?

:eek: :eek: :confused: :D

[A Sooner in Texas]

I love this thread. As a reporter and editor at a daily newspaper I really do have to be a grammar and spelling Nazi. But somehow no matter how often I tell the other reporters (whose work I edit) about the mistakes they make so they won't make them again, the same mistakes crop up over and over and over again.
For instance, one reporter can't understand the use of "a" and "an" when writing an acronym beginning with the letter M. Another reporter could cut half the commas she uses out of her stories and she'd still have too many. And another can't seem to grasp the idea that a story lead shouldn't be 50-60 words long in a run-on sentence.
But it's not a new problem. I was editor of my college newspaper for two semesters 30 years ago and had to work with beginning reporters. An amazing number of them were nearly illiterate.
I could rant on and on here, but Skull and Dean have said pretty much everything I would say. :) So thanks for the thread, Skull!

[olevetonahill]

"But its just the Internets and a silly message board"
Plus yall fergive me I never learned to type:(
and at My age I aint a gonna so **** off dip ****s :P

[Curly Bill]

I have my writing style that I use when I need to say things somewhat profesionally, and then there's the way I usually post on here. :P

[olevetonahill]

I have my writing style that I use when I need to say things somewhat profesionally, and then there's the way I usually post on here. :P

Zacly I dont write professionally. I aint sendin yall a Resume . and I dont really give a rats *** if ya like the way I type and spell stuff:eek:

[olevetonahill]

I will however be a Happy MoFo to point out a Professionals writing **** ups :D

[CK Sooner]

Zacly I dont write professionally. I aint sendin yall a Resume . and I dont really give a rats *** if ya like the way I type and spell stuff:eek:

Whose Zac?

:D;)

[olevetonahill]

Whose Zac?

:D;)

Dat other dude
pay tention

[sooneron]

try reading college papers sometime. talk about depressing.

Said the guy not starting a sentence with a capital.:texan:

[sooneron]

Exactly. That film did a good a job as anything else of explaining the dysgenic downturn that we're currently right in the middle of.

the_ouninja

Said the guy ending a sentence with a preposition. :texan:


:D :D :D

[olevetonahill]

Said the guy not starting a sentence with a capital.:texan:


Said the guy ending a sentence with a preposition. :texan:


:D :D :D

BWAAAAAHAAAAAAA:D
Busted em

[Scott D]

I love this thread. As a reporter and editor at a daily newspaper I really do have to be a grammar and spelling Nazi. But somehow no matter how often I tell the other reporters (whose work I edit) about the mistakes they make so they won't make them again, the same mistakes crop up over and over and over again.
For instance, one reporter can't understand the use of "a" and "an" when writing an acronym beginning with the letter M. Another reporter could cut half the commas she uses out of her stories and she'd still have too many. And another can't seem to grasp the idea that a story lead shouldn't be 50-60 words long in a run-on sentence.
But it's not a new problem. I was editor of my college newspaper for two semesters 30 years ago and had to work with beginning reporters. An amazing number of them were nearly illiterate.
I could rant on and on here, but Skull and Dean have said pretty much everything I would say. :) So thanks for the thread, Skull!

What you need.
Are more articles that.
Can just go like this.
like this.

[Scott D]

oh and skull I figure you'd get a kick out of this so I lifted it from an article on social networking and constant status updaters.


The Bad Grammarian. "So sad about Fara Fauset but Im so gladd its friday yippe". Yes, I know the punctuation rules are different in the digital world. And, no, no one likes a spelling-Nazi schoolmarm. But you sound like a moron.

[John Kochtoston]

I don't know why the written word is in such bad shape, but it is. My opinion on it is that fewer and fewer folks engage in critical thinking and analysis, which requires reading and writing at advanced levels. So, more and more people have less and less of a clue when they are being offered silliness that attempts to pass itself off as important and well-done.

I have no links to back me up on any of this. But, do I really need them?

[sooneron]

I would like it pointed out that I do get along with and respect skull and KC. I just couldn't resist!

[stoopified]

Knot me dood,Im numero uno on grammer patrol hitlest.

[GottaHavePride]

In part, I think it can be attributed to society's general distrust of the intellectual. For example, take the average person's opinion of literature, art - especially modern art, music (classical), theater, opera, etc. etc. etc. Plus, I saw a poll recently that said most Americans think scientists do important work, but overwhelmingly don't trust the results they publish. How in the bloody hell does that make sense?

[the_ouskull]

Said the guy ending a sentence with a preposition. :texan:

..said the guy who didn't put an ellipsis at the beginning of his sentence - even though it wasn't really necessary for you to do so since it wasn't a block-quoted text - but had still fallen into my trap by the end of it. I knew that, by ending that sentence with a preposition, I was "risking" correction by someone who doesn't fully understand the language. But, since I was looking to educate in this thread, even if it is the educated who I am educating, it's better than nobody getting their learn on. :D

-----

First, I'll quote Winston Churchill to set a more humorous tone:


“This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.”

Then, I'll continue the lesson:

The only "real" rule for prepositions is that they have to be followed by a noun. There's no "preposition at the end of a sentence" offical, according-to-Hoyle, rule. It's just bad form to use prepositions at the end of a sentence when the meaning is clear without using them. (e.g. - "Where are you at?")

-----

So, I'm going to read the rest of this thread now.

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

I don't know why the written word is in such bad shape, but it is. My opinion on it is that fewer and fewer folks engage in critical thinking and analysis, which requires reading and writing at advanced levels. So, more and more people have less and less of a clue when they are being offered silliness that attempts to pass itself off as important and well-done.

I have no links to back me up on any of this. But, do I really need them?

Not in this day and age, you don't. I mean, you DO need them, but nobody will make you produce them.

the_ouskull

[John Kochtoston]

Not in this day and age, you don't. I mean, you DO need them, but nobody will make you produce them.

the_ouskull

I was kind of going for a "the thing speaks for itself" motif, but, yeah, yours works as well. :)

[Crucifax Autumn]

(e.g. - "Where are you at bitch?")


Better?

[olevetonahill]

In part, I think it can be attributed to society's general distrust of the intellectual. For example, take the average person's opinion of literature, art - especially modern art, music (classical), theater, opera, etc. etc. etc. Plus, I saw a poll recently that said most Americans think scientists do important work, but overwhelmingly don't trust the results they publish. How in the bloody hell does that make sense?

LMFAO you misspelled POLE:P :D

[OUAlumni1990]

LOL, this thread is classic!

[Chuck Bao]

I can control my writing to some degree with heavy editing and spell checking.

Frankly, I'm amazed that people could compose such brilliant correspondence, articles, literature more than 20 years ago without the aid of a computer.

I'm not lazy and I try to make the extra effort to get it right. But way back when, it must have been a struggle to keep re-handwriting or re-typing pages. That, or the brain was exercised more in the pre-composing process.

Maybe technology helps to a point and then there is an inevitable dumb down process. For me, it is probably only downside from here.

It is not the written word that bothers me the most. I find myself speaking lolz cat and that is truly frightening. OH NOOOOOES!

[49r]

In part, I think it can be attributed to society's general distrust of the intellectual. For example, take the average person's opinion of literature, art - especially modern art, music (classical), theater, opera, etc. etc. etc. Plus, I saw a poll recently that said most Americans think scientists do important work, but overwhelmingly don't trust the results they publish. How in the bloody hell does that make sense?

That's a big part of it I'm afraid. We fear that which we do not know, and a healthy chunk of the population are unable or unwilling to learn about things of which they do not know, so they live in fear of this unknown.

So much so, in fact that they spend a great deal of effort shouting down those with knowledge on subjects who attempt to enlighten them. It's weird, really.

[GottaHavePride]

Hey, anyone else ever read the book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves"? I keep starting it but never have time to finish.

[sitzpinkler]

I love this thread. As a reporter and editor at a daily newspaper I really do have to be a grammar and spelling Nazi. But somehow no matter how often I tell the other reporters(whose work I edit) about the mistakes they make so they won't make them again, the same mistakes crop up over and over and over again.
For instance, one reporter can't understand the use of "a" and "an" when writing an acronym beginning with the letter M. Another reporter could cut half the commas she uses out of her stories and she'd still have too many. And another can't seem to grasp the idea that a story lead shouldn't be 50-60 words long in a run-on sentence.
But it's not a new problem. I was editor of my college newspaper for two semesters 30 years ago and had to work with beginning reporters. An amazing number of them were nearly illiterate.
I could rant on and on here, but Skull and Dean have said pretty much everything I would say. :) So thanks for the thread, Skull!

Shouldn't the sentence in bold begin like one of the two below?

But somehow,

or

But, somehow,

I'm asking because I'm not sure, not because I'm trying to be a smartass.

[the_ouskull]

Shouldn't the sentence in bold begin like one of the two below?

I'm asking because I'm not sure, not because I'm trying to be a smartass.

Generally, an appositive phrase, such as the one listed above, (and the one I just typed) is set off by commas on both ends, but this isn't a steadfast rule, either. I would have probably gone with your first choice in order to maximize both clarity and flow. The phrase is meant to modify the noun "mistakes," and setting off the entirety of the phrase that does so is important, regardless of the size of said phrase.

And, I'm not picking on SoonerInTexas 'cause, 1) this isn't the thread for it, and 2) he seems to like me, but this: "no matter how often I tell the other reporters (whose work I edit) about the mistakes they make so they won't make them again," is one H*LL of a long modifier. I thought you journalism types were supposed to be all about brevity. :D

(And, 3) you hiring...?)

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

That's a big part of it I'm afraid. We fear that which we do not know, and a healthy chunk of the population are unable or unwilling to learn about things of which they do not know, so they live in fear of this unknown.

So much so, in fact that they spend a great deal of effort shouting down those with knowledge on subjects who attempt to enlighten them. It's weird, really.

Having grown up in the middle of a cycle of hopelessness in S.E. Oklahoma, I am here to tell you, this is very true. It's a hyper-masculinity-driven culture, where, to a middle-school-aged child, being "gay" is the worst thing in the world. In addition, if these same children don't receive an education, in 10 years, when they're in their early 20's, they'll still be calling each other "gay" as if it were the scarlet f*cking letter. They never learned enough about the world to come up with a better put-down. I'd rather be a gay man trapped in a hetero culture than an idiot trapped by every problem [sooneron, this is for you] across I come. (F*ckin' Yoda-speak...)

People fear what they don't understand, and attack that which they do not value/fear. Education isn't as exciting (to the average person) as football, or basketball, or music, or parties, etc... but a large part of "why" is because, generationally, those th...

Let me make it even more simple: If those things aren't important to the parents, they won't be important to the child. And, as a parent, SAYING that they're important is good, but if they're not really important, it won't take long for your ruse to be uncovered. Don't be a parent that constantly tells their child(ren), "You have to get an education. There's nothing more important in life than an education," but when they come up to you in 3rd grade, asking for help with math or English, you have to send them on because education wasn't important to YOU!

What people who value things like sports, etc.. above an education don't realize in this society of immediate gratification is that, if you are educated, it makes EVERYTHING so much better. Football? Better. Basketball? Better. Sex? Better. LIFE is better if you are an educated person. Just as a man with experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument, a man with an education is never at the mercy of LIFE!

Sadly, for most, life is the ticking of the clock, winding itself backwards towards the state to which we are all hastening. I want to LIVE life, not watch it. (I'm going to stop now, 'cause I feel a reality TV rant coming on, and I don't want to break this site's bandwidth...)

the_ouskull

[Mjcpr]

Sooo, you're gay?

[Pricetag]

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsL/34370-28227.gif
You talk like a fag, and your ****'s all retarded.

Seriously, this movie is brilliant. I don't understand why so many people don't think much of it. Just this morning on the Sports Animal, they were talking with the movie guy, and a new Mike Judge movie in the same vein is coming out, and he mentioned how Idiocracy wasn't well received.

[yermom]

it took me a 2nd viewing to appreciate it more.

it's not his best work, but it's not bad.

it's good enough of an idea that it gets referenced a lot

the whole Upgrayedd thing makes me laugh EVERY TIME

you see, a pimp's love...

[yermom]

to this discussion i'll add this:

even if you are talking about informal speech like IM, message boards, or email, it's hard enough to convey a position, or emotion in print and things can get confusing with perfect grammar. it's even harder if you ignore punctuation and basic grammar conventions, spelling, etc...

[the_ouskull]

to this discussion i'll add this:

even if you are talking about informal speech like IM, message boards, or email, it's hard enough to convey a position, or emotion in print and things can get confusing with perfect grammar. it's even harder if you ignore punctuation and basic grammar conventions, spelling, etc...

Also, very, very true. Back in the days of "AOL IM chat as pickup line," I wouldn't even talk to somebody if they didn't make an effort, grammatically. I figured, 1) they'd be too easy to "top off," and, therefore, no fun, and 2) if the unspeakable happened, it'd just be procreation without representation, which I think that the Constitution warned again, although I could be mistaken.

And I'm the same way about the Upgrayedd name. "With two 'd's,' for a double-dose of 'dat pimpin'."

mjcpr: People are more than welcome to be curious about my sexuality. I welcome the ambiguousness. It keeps things entertaining. I know the truth, so, beyond that, it's like watching TV for me. The answer to your question is "no," but in this day-and-age, people rarely, if ever, believe what they're told, even when told directly by someone with authority over you in a given situation. ("Don't touch this plate, it's really hot.")

the_ouskull, with two 'l's' for a double-dose... sh*t, that just doesn't have the same ring to it...

[King Crimson]

sooneron will get something mysterious in the mail.

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

Said the guy ending a sentence with a preposition. :texan:


:D :D :D

Correction.. "Exactly. That film did a good a job as anything else of explaining the dysgenic downturn that we're currently right in the middle of, you azzhole." :D

[the_ouskull]

People, it's happening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF4gHS4nvSM&feature=related

the_ouskull

[49r]

y0O7_3o3BrI

Mike Judge is a true renaissance man!

NYT - Shying Away From Degeneracy (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/09/business/09online.html?scp=4&sq=&st=nyt)

Why, asks David Weigel on Reason magazine’s Hit and Run blog (reason.com), do “movies that exploit dumbed-down American culture get wide releases while a comedy making light of that, by the creator of ‘Beavis and Butt-head,’ is getting canned?”


Others theorize that Fox disowned the film because it makes fun not only of Fox News — the studio’s sister division — but also of Starbucks, Fuddruckers and other companies that may advertise with one or more media outlets of Fox’s owner, the News Corporation.

The blog FishBowlLA quotes Luke Thompson, a movie reviewer for E! Online, as saying, “some of the sponsors may well have been unhappy with the way their products are placed, and made some phone calls to higher-ups”

NYT - This Joke’s for You (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/magazine/04wwln-consumed-t.html?scp=3&sq=&st=nyt)

Some present-day brands exist in this dystopian future; Starbucks and Fuddruckers are there, although they have changed in ways that really can’t be described here. The dubious Brawndo attained its dominant role simply by buying the government agencies that might thwart its power and by marginalizing the use of water by corporate fiat. Witless consumers parrot the drink’s advertised inclusion of electrolytes as the best thing about it — though they clearly don’t know what electrolytes are or why they are supposed to be good. Of course, that is all made up. There is no Brawndo. Or there wasn’t until last November, when this instrument of consumer-culture satire joined actual consumer culture: 10,000 cases and counting of Brawndo have sold online or via convenience stores in the Northeast and other regions.


“I watched ‘Idiocracy,’ and I was like, ‘O.K., we’re in,’ ” Kirby says. “Based on how things are going on in the world, and especially our country right now, this is a shoo-in.” He laughs as he says this, so I wasn’t sure what he meant. Are we already living “Idiocracy”? “Absolutely,” he says. “It’s all about overcommercialization.”


It’s interesting to consider the Brawndo project as metasubversion, making it possible to express knowing amusement at the absurdity of American commerce by buying something. But maybe the message is simply that cautionary tales about dumbed-down culture are a futile endeavor: show us an argument that we will buy anything, no matter how idiotic, and we say, “Awesome — how much for that?”


Invariably the darkly comic sci-fi future is dominated by huge media conglomerates and overbearing corporations that deliver us into some idiocracy or other by force, and from above.

[the_ouskull]

I've read that stuff too. Love it. But, remember, this isn't about the broad epic fail currently occuring so much as the specific epic fail happening to our language. When I speak, in plain English, in a reasonable tone, I shouldn't sound uppity, or "f*ggy," to the average person, I should sound "right." The fact that students occasionally have trouble understanding me, even on days where I go out of my way not to use any words they shouldn't reasonably be expected to know (which differ vastly from the days where I purposely use words they won't know; it's a vain attempt to get them to ask questions, but they usually just pretend they know what it means - or maybe just pretend to listen...) I have to dummy-down my vocabulary, or mix it with slang/pop culture analogies for them to really "get" my message.

My biggest problem with this is that the majority of our society today is uneducated beyond roughly the junior high level. Bear with me...

-----

This article discusses 2003 in education, and how our U.S. high school graduation rate was at an all-time high of 85%... IF the definition of "high school graduate" was extended to include anybody 25 years of age and under; not 19 and under, as it generally should be to determine a more accurate estimate. I mean, yes, technically a G.E.D. counts as "a high school education," but really? Really? High school problems are a little easier to solve at 25 than they are at 14, I'd imagine. They can count as graduates, but not when computing graduation rates. Also, which class year do the older ones count towards? The current year? Their past graduation year? The graduation rate of the future?

But, buying their premise, in 2003, rates were at an all-time high.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/highschool.htm

Then, there's this article from 2008 that discusses basically the exact same thing I just did.

http://www.nber.org/reporter/2008number1/heckman.html

And suddenly, you realize, this sh*t's happening across the board. Kids aren't doing "better than ever" in school! They're just making it easier for them to accomplish something of merit; i.e. - a diploma. No Child Left Behind. Same sh*t. Teachers are "teaching to the test" now, and leaving out vital parts of a child's education... namely WRITING! (Yes, there's a writing portion on the E.O.I. test, but few teachers actually bother teaching to that portion, apparently, judging by the looks on my student's faces when I started doing just that. We're going to see just how pretty the state of education is sitting starting at the end of this school year. Exit tests will be required to graduate. Be ready for the next big scandal, boys and girls.

When graduation rates plummet, there will be (yet) another overhaul in the education system, and who knows where the sh*t it's going to go this time? But, regardless of where it goes, it's too late for an entire generation of kids, maybe two, to get what they truly need in order to succeed academically.

Then there's this, from 2009, promoting what I think is a fairly accurate statistic.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0609/p02s13-usgn.html

But., if that's to be believed, then roughly 900,000 uneducated 18ish year-olds are being released into the wild every year. Considering that they haven't been taught many basic skills at this point, it's going to make competition for non-skilled labor that much greater, and drive the cost of that labor down even further, creating an even larger disparity between the well-to-do, and the ne-er-do-well of society. Because so many of them won't be able to afford their own homes, they're going to wind up renting, which, in turn will drive down property values in the areas in which they live, which, in turn, will result on fewer taxes being collected on those properties, and, therefore, fewer tax dollars being allocated to the schools as a result of those property taxes. These schools will, in turn, have to hire increasingly inexperienced teachers, and drop more and more artistic programs in favor of money-making athletics programs. Thus, the cycle is propagated. When the collective educational society started to acquiesce to b*tchy parents, their days were numbered. High schools no longer prepare students for high school; much less for college.

...and I give a sh*t about all of this; to the point of insomnia (any suggestions? I'm being serious about this part) and I still can't find a teaching job in the Norman area. I feel like Lee Greenwood should be playing in the background as a have myself a nightcap and stare at my ceiling for a few more hours. I hope that none of you think about sh*t the way that I do, 'cause I don't wish it upon anybody. I just want people to start giving a sh*t for the sake of giving a sh*t again.. not just because they might be able to get something out of it; some immediate gain or gratification. Since when did being smart become a bad thing? When did learning become a burden?

the_ouskull

[LoyalFan]

It's a never-ending source of embarrassment that here, so well as on other Sooner boards, poor grammar, lousy spelling, and inadvertant use of malaprops is virtually epidemic. As if that weren't enough my favorite bass fishing boards are even worse.
I'm not a flawless user of English (and my Swahili is execrable,) but I do try to honor our threatened language by the observance of the rules rather than by the breach thereof.

LF

[the_ouskull]

Dude, really, your bass fishing boards? Lol.

I mean, considering that Tom Felton is the most intelligent-SOUNDING fisherman I've ever heard, and in his case it's probably the accent, you have to understand your source material, man.

Maybe I just don't fish anymore (personal reasons) but, there's a very cynical, very... uh... dry-humor-having (sorry, my eloquence is out the window on 5 hours of sleep) side of me that wonders whether or not the next poster is going to talk about how poor the language is on their Vermont militia, "The South Will Rise Again," or "Rap Concerts are the Best Live Music" boards.

I have to get some f*cking sleep. My sense of humor is going to get me beaten up at my basketball league today. If you'd like to practice your Swahili, though, I moderate one of the boards over at http://kitoba.com/SwahiliForum. Stop by...

the_ouskull

[Turd_Ferguson]

So, what caused the down turn in the public school system? What has caused kid's to pass on from 6th to 7th when they're grades say diffrent?:pop:

[Scott D]

I know that up here, at least to my perspective the only educational joke bigger than 'NCLB' is the grading system that at some point replaced the "F" with an "E" grade.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I know that up here, at least to my perspective the only educational joke bigger than 'NCLB' is the grading system that at some point replaced the "F" with an "E" grade.I'm not sure, but I think an "F" is not considered PC.

[Curly Bill]

So, what caused the down turn in the public school system? What has caused kid's to pass on from 6th to 7th when they're grades say diffrent?:pop:

Too many things to mention, but a couple are: for one, public schools now pander to the lowest common denominator.

....and schools have become more concerned with the kiddos feelers than they are in making the kid do what's right.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Too many things to mention, but a couple are: for one public schools now pander to the lowest common denominator.

....and schools have become more concerned with the kiddos feelers than they are in making the kid do what's right.No more dodge ball, kick ball, etc...:( Wonder when fooseball, baseball and basketball will go away?

[GottaHavePride]

Skull, my mom works for the public schools and shares a lot of your views, I think. She works as a para despite having a master's in biology AND and educational certification. (Granted, her certification is probably 30 years out of date, but still...) She's getting paid the same as a lot of actual teachers (probably more than new teachers) and she doesn't have to deal with parents OR teaching to goofy testing requirements.

[the_ouskull]

So, what caused the down turn in the public school system? What has caused kid's to pass on from 6th to 7th when they're grades say diffrent?:pop:

Ignorance and apathy. That's my serious answer. My not-as-serious, but-tongue-in-cheek-kinda-serious answer is: Look at your post. Did one of the children in question write the second sentence for you?

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

Skull, my mom works for the public schools and shares a lot of your views, I think. She works as a para despite having a master's in biology AND and educational certification. (Granted, her certification is probably 30 years out of date, but still...) She's getting paid the same as a lot of actual teachers (probably more than new teachers) and she doesn't have to deal with parents OR teaching to goofy testing requirements.

Get me a f*cking application then, please.

the_ouskull

[olevetonahill]

to this discussion i'll add this:

even if you are talking about informal speech like IM, message boards, or email, it's hard enough to convey a position, or emotion in print and things can get confusing with perfect grammar. it's even harder if you ignore punctuation and basic grammar conventions, spelling, etc...
Shiate, Its nothing less than trying to say what ya wanta say with out the Dayum filters

Ignorance and apathy. That's my serious answer. My not-as-serious, but-tongue-in-cheek-kinda-serious answer is: Look at your post. Did one of the children in question write the second sentence for you?

the_ouskull

I larned My 3 Rs
Why am I not as gude as you ?

:P

[olevetonahill]

This thread Pizzes me off at language Snobs :eek: :pop:

[the_ouskull]

Speaking and writing the language the way that it is (supposed to be; and USED to be) taught does not make us snobs. It makes us correct. What it makes those who aren't within our standard deviation is something else entirely.

the_ouskull

[Fraggle145]

try reading college papers sometime. talk about depressing.

Yep.

One of my other pet peeves (it may have been mentioned already, haven't read the whole thread) is when people try to use bigger words to make their point when a smaller one would be more effective. For example: the word 'utilize' instead of 'use.'

Weak sauce.

I think my guilty pleasure is not using apostrophes when I type on the board. For some reason that keystroke is just really inconvenient for me.

[49r]

This thread Pizzes me off at language Snobs :eek: :pop:

In other words, "You talk like a fag and your **** is stupid".

But we've already been over that.

[Cam]

The fact that students occasionally have trouble understanding me, even on days where I go out of my way not to use any words they shouldn't reasonably be expected to know (which differ vastly from the days where I purposely use words they won't know; it's a vain attempt to get them to ask questions, but they usually just pretend they know what it means - or maybe just pretend to listen...) I have to dummy-down my vocabulary, or mix it with slang/pop culture analogies for them to really "get" my message.

the_ouskull

Unfortunately, too many people are afraid to admit that they don't know what's being said to them. They think there's shame in asking questions. I'm not sure where/when that started, but I don't like it.


Too many things to mention, but a couple are: for one, public schools now pander to the lowest common denominator.

....and schools have become more concerned with the kiddos feelers than they are in making the kid do what's right.

Please oh please don't forget parents in this. Too many kids having kids and not parenting has done in the public schools in my opinion.





When I lived in England, I was chastised quite a bit for using "American" English instead of "Proper" English. Because of my experience I kind of look at it like this: There's "Proper" English, "American" English, and digital variants of both. Each have their place IMHO. What we need is more people who know when each should be used.

I'm sure I did something grammatically wrong here, so flame away. I'll get over it.

[the_ouskull]

You gave a sh*t. That's never wrong, even when not always spelled correctly.

the_ouskull

[Curly Bill]

Please oh please don't forget parents in this. Too many kids having kids and not parenting has done in the public schools in my opinion.

No doubt this is a major contributor, and maybe the major contributor.

[Cam]

You gave a sh*t. That's never wrong, even when not always spelled correctly.

the_ouskull

I have never and will never be confused with a spelling bee winner...

[the_ouskull]

No doubt this is a major contributor, and maybe the major contributor.

I'll take this a step further, because I completely agree with the comment, the premise behind it, and everything else. The whole "kids having kids" thing goes a step further because they're having kids before they have life experiences; learning experiences, of their own. Chances are, because they're in that situation, they're not really in much of a position to help their kids when they DO need help, to offer them advice when they do need advice, and give them good advice when they do give it. The parents are in that boat precisely because they were raised the same way. The cycle continues...

A generation of children being raised by the internet, spawned by parents who were raised by television, with a heaping dose of the P.C. revolution that has occured in the interim, and yeah, our future looks dim...

the_ouskull

[opksooner]

To the_ouskull and all who are in his corner on this issue, I have just one word to say:

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Oh.........wait.......................



...........never mind.