Abortion ultrasound tossed

[LilSooner]

So tell me what your thoughts on miscarriages are. Using the line of thinking in this post anything but delivering a child full term is "murder". So wouldn't a female's body terminating the fetus be murder based on the opinions in this thread?

[Collier11]

Touche (please draw accent in your head.) However, I am happy to admit that the "Frozen" part is hyperbole. Are you willing to say the same for your use of "murder"?

I will go back and correct, I believe that abortion should be considered murder because it is the killing of a innocent and defenseless human being

Better :D

[Collier11]

So tell me what your thoughts on miscarriages are. Using the line of thinking in this post anything but delivering a child full term is "murder". So wouldn't a female's body terminating the fetus be murder based on the opinions in this thread?

The woman has no control over her body having a miscarriage in most cases

What I am calling murder is terminating the baby by choice

[Collier11]

Two weeks til the season, ive got to go get my OU gear...Ill be back later to see what has happened to the thread ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

All good.

And just to get it out there:

I think that in the vast majority of cases abortion is wrong. Whether you believe that a non-viable fetus is a person or a person in potentia (the latter being my view) there is inescapable evil in its destruction.

I also think that for the state to mandate that someone give of their own lifeblood to nurture the potential life of another is inescapably evil. I would think that my more conservative friends would agree with this. I guess it's in how you look at it. My view is that abortion is a medically-assisted withdrawal of maternal support.

Sometimes the only choice we get is between two evils.

[Frozen Sooner]

So tell me what your thoughts on miscarriages are. Using the line of thinking in this post anything but delivering a child full term is "murder". So wouldn't a female's body terminating the fetus be murder based on the opinions in this thread?

Miscarriages are legal. NOT MURDER. :p

(See, I'll do it to Lil, too. OW! THAT'S MY SHIN!)

[KABOOKIE]

Touche (please draw accent in your head.) However, I am happy to admit that the "Frozen" part is hyperbole. Are you willing to say the same for your use of "murder"?

But do you not like it's misuse?

[Frozen Sooner]

If you want to be technical, the word "Frozen" can also mean "affected by freezing cold." Which was accurate at the time, as it was likely below 32 degrees F.

[yermom]

Meh. I just don't like it when people misuse words. :D

For the record, I have the same problem with the "Meat is murder" idiot crowd. Except Moz.

http://www.answers.com/murder

it's still just semantics


2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.

[Frozen Sooner]

If I'm not mistaken, you're using the definition of the verb "to murder," not the noun "murder." NOW we're getting into semantics. :D

[yermom]

well, we aren't trying to convict the mother

[Turd_Ferguson]

I appreciate the thought, but I'm about as opposed to you as one can be on this argument. I don't know why you guys are even arguing it, no one has ever convinced someone on the other side to change sides.

(OK, maybe it has happened, but not often) ;)


...and yeah, if ya wanna know the truth: I don't call it a human until it comes out kicking and screaming.How many kid's ya got CB?

[Curly Bill]

How many kid's ya got CB?

ZERO, and no, I don't think it would change my mind! :P

[Crucifax Autumn]

Honestly, once they come out they are LESS human.

[Curly Bill]

I understand the argument Turd, and others want to make, but how far do we take that? Do I have a human in my testicles right now just needing a chance to hook up with a female egg?

[Crucifax Autumn]

I understand the argument Turd, and others want to make, but how far do we take that? Do I have a human in my testicles right now just needing a chance to hook up with a female egg?

I have millions and they are ALWAYS looking for a female!

But seriously, on the human thing...Have you met my kids???????

[Curly Bill]

I have millions and they are ALWAYS looking for a female!

But seriously, on the human thing...Have you met my kids???????

Why am I thinking of Eddie and family from Vegas Vacation? :D

[Crucifax Autumn]

heh...Take away some of the white trash and add in a little bit of a discovery channel documentary on wild dogs and you are close!

[Curly Bill]

heh...Take away some of the white trash and add in a little bit of a discovery channel documentary on wild dogs and you are close!

Dude, did ya see the Monster Quest search for wild hogs down here in Texas? That was some good viewing right thar! :D

[Okla-homey]

And I'm happy that I've completely derailed this murder of a thread.

Fine. But you didn't correctly define murder. It's the "killing of a human being with malice aforethought. " Thus, an abortionist who deliberately kills a child in utero qualifies. In some folks' minds anyway.

[Crucifax Autumn]

So, does the malice part apply? I think that will be the sticking point the semantics people start arguing after CB and I stop threadjacking!

[Okla-homey]

Lawful. Thus not murder. What aren't you getting out of this?

Murder is the unlawful killing of another person without justification or excuse.

I mean, if you want you could call it "toaster," but you'd be just as mistaken.

sorry. Those "justification and/or excuse" thingies are defenses to the crime of murder. The definition is simpler. It's merely "the taking of the life of a human being with malice aforethought." At least that's the law in Oklahoma. Ain't sure about Alabamy.

[JohnnyMack]

The fact that *any* of you are getting your panties in a wad about a semantic issue is weak and laughable. It's almost like everybody is completely mortgaged to the correctness of their own opinion and holds no interest in objectively examining the opinions of others.

Furthermore I'd like to see exactly how some of this morality police we have wandering around this place would act when presented with actual, real life scenarios that demand tough choices.

[Frozen Sooner]

Fine. But you didn't correctly define murder. It's the "killing of a human being with malice aforethought. " Thus, an abortionist who deliberately kills a child in utero qualifies. In some folks' minds anyway.

Not according to Blackstone. :D

[JohnnyMack]

Am I the only conservative that doesn't think it's OK for the govt to take over health care, private industry and the like, and neither is it OK for the govt to tell a woman what she can do with her body?

*raises hand*

Although you still don't think of me as a "conservative" in our dichotomous, tribal, us vs. them mentality that permeates this country. :P

[Crucifax Autumn]

Dude, did ya see the Monster Quest search for wild hogs down here in Texas? That was some good viewing right thar! :D

also an apt description of my kids. Snarling and looking for food all the time.

[Crucifax Autumn]

*raises hand*

Although you still don't think of me as a "conservative" in our dichotomous, tribal, us vs. them mentality that permeates this country. :P

What fun would the world be without senseless hatred and infighting? Peaceful coexistence is for fruit loops! ;)

[Curly Bill]

*raises hand*

Although you still don't think of me as a "conservative" in our dichotomous, tribal, us vs. them mentality that permeates this country. :P

:D

[Okla-homey]

So, does the malice part apply? I think that will be the sticking point the semantics people start arguing after CB and I stop threadjacking!

malice = deliberateness.

See, generally, all crimes have two components*; 1) the actus reas (the deed itself) and; 2) the mens rea(the mental state of the doer).

Thus, you generally don't get charged with murder if you kill someone accidentally. That's more properly manslaughter.

* there are a few "strict liability" crimes with which you can be charged whether you meant to do them or not. Examples are possession of kiddie porn and statutory rape (having sex with minors). The law doesn't care whether you knew what the heck you were doing or not.

[Okla-homey]

Not according to Blackstone. :D

try citing Blackstone's Commentaries in a brief sometime.;)

[Crucifax Autumn]

So if abortion is banned, then loose women everywhere will be "accidentally" falling down the stairs?

[Sooner_Bob]

Furthermore I'd like to see exactly how some of this morality police we have wandering around this place would act when presented with actual, real life scenarios that demand tough choices.

How do you know folks haven't gone through that already? And why in the world would anyone publicize it on sf.com if they had?

[Curly Bill]

So if abortion is banned, then loose women everywhere will be "accidentally" falling down the stairs?

Back alley abortions are us. :(

[Frozen Sooner]

try citing Blackstone's Commentaries in a brief sometime.;)

The next time you see a DA bring someone up on murder charges for an abortion provided in a jurisdiction where it's legal, let me know. ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure Alabama uses the Blackstone formulation, but since the Model Penal Code uses your formulation, I'll concede the point. :)

[JohnnyMack]

How do you know folks haven't gone through that already? And why in the world would anyone publicize it on sf.com if they had?

Then they are hypocrites I suppose.

I consider myself "pro-life" when it comes to me and my wife. We had a pregnancy that went from ectopic to a miscarriage on its own. Before the miscarriage we both understood that it was either have the ectopic pregnancy ended or that my wife could die. I had no problem with that concept but technically I would have been aborting a baby and would have been committing murder and burning in hell according to some around here.

[Okla-homey]

The next time you see a DA bring someone up on murder charges for an abortion provided in a jurisdiction where it's legal, let me know. ;)

It could happen here. Particularly in one of those super late-term, "stick a scissors in the back of the head of a viable fetus" dealios. Like that monster who got "late-term aborted" up in Wichita used to do.

[Turd_Ferguson]

ZERO, and no, I don't think it would change my mind! :PThere ya go:P:D

[jkjsooner]

I'm going to disagree with Froze here. Google the definition of murder. There are many definitions that do not refer to the word "unlawful."

Lawyers tend to talk as if the legal definition of a word is the only definition. That just isn't the case. For example, being found not guilty in a court of law does not mean I am not guilty of the act. It just means in a legal sense I am not.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Yep. I'm guilty of more crimes than the mob, but I just don't usually get caught and when I do I weasel my way out of the consequences!

[Veritas]

I had no problem with that concept but technically I would have been aborting a baby and would have been committing murder and burning in hell according to some around here.
Silly Mack, you're going to burn in hell either way. :texan:

[Collier11]

Im really really really drunk, cant talk about this shiz right now :D

[Okla-homey]

Lawyers tend to talk as if the legal definition of a word is the only definition. That just isn't the case. For example, being found not guilty in a court of law does not mean I am not guilty of the act. It just means in a legal sense I am not.

The second part of your post is very insightful. Most people don't realize all an acquittal means is the prosecution didn't prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Put another way, the prosecution might prove it in the minds of the jurors to a...say, 80% certainty. In that example, that may well result in an acquittal because "reasonable doubt" (the other 20%) remains. And sometimes, a jury hears all the evidence, is convinced the defendant did the deed, and acquits nonetheless for some other reason. Perhaps they think the law broken by the defendant is stupid, or they hate the cops, or something -- that's referred to as "jury nullification." (e.g. O.J.'s murder case)

Now to the first part. Legal definitions do matter because a crime is composed of various sub-parts, or in lawyer-ese, "elements". It's the legislature's job to craft these definitions. The executive branch's job is to arrest and charge people they believe break these laws as they are defined by the legislature. Finally, the judicial system is tasked with resolving it all.

[GrapevineSooner]

How do you know folks haven't gone through that already? And why in the world would anyone publicize it on sf.com if they had?


To humanize it and force you to re-evaluate your beliefs. When you hear these stories from people you don't know, it tends not to have the same impact when it affects somebody you know.

[Veritas]

Take a look at this picture. WARNING! IT IS NAUSEATINGLY GROSS!
http://www.lifebeginsatconception.com/abortedbaby05.jpg

Now answer two questions:
1) Is that a human?
2) If not, what is it?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Take a look at this picture. WARNING! IT IS NAUSEATINGLY GROSS!
http://www.lifebeginsatconception.com/abortedbaby05.jpg

Now answer two questions:
1) Is that a human?
2) If not, what is it?Murder.

[jkjsooner]

Take a look at this picture. WARNING! IT IS NAUSEATINGLY GROSS!
http://www.lifebeginsatconception.com/abortedbaby05.jpg

Now answer two questions:
1) Is that a human?
2) If not, what is it?

That looks pretty late term to me. I agree that that is very disturbing and I'm totally against late term abortions and I've never bought into the "right to choose" argument and I'm against abortions as a mean of convenience.

I don't have a problem with the pill that keeps a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus nor do I have a problem with certain abortions of fetuses that have no long term viability - for example if the brain stopped developing and the brainless living tissue is destined to die within weeks. Do we really have to keep the thing alive to satisfy our conscience?

Anyway, your picture shows one extreme and tells no more of the whole story than if I showed a picture of a single cell fertilized egg. I would argue the baby in the picture is a conscious human being. A few cells (or a few hundred) not so much. As I've said many times, the potential for what it will become doesn't hold water for me.

[Turd_Ferguson]

That looks pretty late term to me. I agree that that is very disturbing and I'm totally against late term abortions and I've never bought into the "right to choose" argument and I'm against abortions as a mean of convenience.

I don't have a problem with the pill that keeps a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus nor do I have a problem with certain abortions of fetuses that have no long term viability - for example if the brain stopped developing and the brainless living tissue is destined to die within weeks. Do we really have to keep the thing alive to satisfy our conscience.

Anyway, your picture shows one extreme and tells no more of the whole story than if I showed a picture of a single cell fertilized egg. I would argue the baby in the picture is a conscious human being. A few cells (or a few hundred) not so much. As I've said many times, the potential for what it will become doesn't hold water for me.So what does a fertilized egg have to do with an aborted baby?

[Harry Beanbag]

That looks pretty late term to me. I agree that that is very disturbing and I'm totally against late term abortions and I've never bought into the "right to choose" argument and I'm against abortions as a mean of convenience.

I don't have a problem with the pill that keeps a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus nor do I have a problem with certain abortions of fetuses that have no long term viability - for example if the brain stopped developing and the brainless living tissue is destined to die within weeks. Do we really have to keep the thing alive to satisfy our conscience?

Anyway, your picture shows one extreme and tells no more of the whole story than if I showed a picture of a single cell fertilized egg. I would argue the baby in the picture is a conscious human being. A few cells (or a few hundred) not so much. As I've said many times, the potential for what it will become doesn't hold water for me.


Okay, most of us can come to some sort of understanding with regards to rape, incest, late term, etc.. All those instances account for a tiny percentage of abortions. What about the other 1 million + babies aborted/killed/murdered/slaughtered every year?