Hey teachers! Better not pray in Pensecola. You'll land in the pokey

[85Sooner]

After reading this story, there is no way anyone can be deceived that the ACLU wants to criminalize the PERSONAL practice of Christianity.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/criminal-prayer-case-stirs-protests/?feat=home_headlines
Neg if you must

[soonerscuba]

I like how I can tell the difference between institutional and personal beliefs and you can't, I can also tell the difference between a court of law and the ACLU, do you really want another depantsing as bad as the last time you posted your dreck?

[mdklatt]

"The defendants all admitted wrongdoing," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for its freedom of religion program. "For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

Yep, sounds real PERSONAL to me. :rolleyes:


Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

Now this is pretty stupid. If she wants to talk about how her personal values guided her through school or something, who cares?

[Pricetag]

Holy ****. Has anyone looked up the meaning of the word "inculcate"?


1. to implant by repeated statement or admonition; teach persistently and earnestly (usually fol. by upon or in): to inculcate virtue in the young.
2. to cause or influence (someone) to accept an idea or feeling (usually fol. by with): Socrates inculcated his pupils with the love of truth.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

They shouldn't be arrested, unless the charges are for stupidity.

[yermom]

"a known Christian"

glad to see some progress being made here :D

[TopDawg]

Here's what I find ironic.


In response, many members of the 300-plus-member student body taped crosses to their mortarboards and stood for an impromptu recitation of the Lord's Prayer during the ceremony.

The Lord's Prayer is Matthew 6:9-13.

Matthew 6:5-6 (right before the Lord's Prayer) is


5And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

[SoonerKnight]

Back in 1995 the Supreme Court ruled that students could initiate school prayer outside of class time. This means that Before school during lunch and after school (clubs). Staff were not to initiate prayers and many of the students and teacher at my high school would hold hands out front and pray silently around the flag pole. The fact that the student body president wasn't allowed to speak is a bunch of crap!

The seperation according to the SCOTUS is student initiated and not staff initiated. Unfourtuanately, the sep of church and state has been basterdized too much. I think most scholars would agree that it was intended to keep religious freedom as in no national church or laws governing religion not that students and teachers could not pray. Congress prays everyday when it is in session. The cogressional members have a member of their church or clergy come to D.C. and pray to open each day. It has been like that for 200+ years!!!!!!

[Sooner_Bob]

How many of us on here were in high school and always had a local minister pray before football games?

Heck, I remember when I attended grade school at Morrison we had a lady come to the school and actually teach some bible lessons to the entire grade school.

Nobody complained about it that I remember . . . nobody felt like their rights were violated that I know of . . .


"For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.'

Yep . . . that's definitely a bad thing. :rolleyes:

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Islamic virtue

Now is it a bad thing?

[Sooner_Bob]

Now is it a bad thing?

Why is that always everyone's typical comeback against anything Christian?

Are kids forced to participate?

[JohnnyMack]

Religion has NO place in a publicly funded school.

[Sooner_Bob]

Religion has NO place in a publicly funded school.

Why?

[JohnnyMack]

Because I don't believe in indoctrinating our youth?

Because enabling the promotion of one mythology over another is inherently bigoted?

Because the longer we spend promoting tribal/dichotomous dogma to flourish the longer we avoid transcending it?

[yermom]

Why is that always everyone's typical comeback against anything Christian?

Are kids forced to participate?

would you want your kids hearing the tenets of Islam at school from teachers everyday?

you might think that hearing about Christianity at school is a good idea for your kid, but i wouldn't.

[yermom]

but yeah, not letting a student speak because they might say something religious is going a touch too far

[Sooner_Bob]

Because I don't believe in indoctrinating our youth?


So allowing a public prayer is the equivalent of brainwashing?




Because enabling the promotion of one mythology over another is inherently bigoted?



The world is inherently bigoted . . .



Because the longer we spend promoting tribal/dichotomous dogma to flourish the longer we avoid transcending it?



You'll never transcend Christianity . . . you're (we're) too small to comprehend it.



would you want your kids hearing the tenets of Islam at school from teachers everyday?


Islam is a part of our world history . . . if taught in conjunction with the tenets of other religions I would honestly have no problem with my kids learning about the religions of the world.



you might think that hearing about Christianity at school is a good idea for your kid, but i wouldn't.

Apparently a lot of you don't think hearing about Christianity anywhere is a good idea. I would never consider leaving my children learning about Christianity to a school or even a church.

[JohnnyMack]

So allowing a public prayer is the equivalent of brainwashing?

Allowing a non-school directed prayer or prayer group to exist beyond the hours in which school is in session is fine. School directed prayer is brainwashing.


The world is inherently bigoted . . .

So we should just keep perpetuating that?


You'll never transcend Christianity . . . you're (we're) too small to comprehend it.

I'm too small to comprehend the universe. I'm not too small to comprehend the mythology of a culture.


Islam is a part of our world history . . . if taught in conjunction with the tenets of other religions I would honestly have no problem with my kids learning about the religions of the world.

Agreed.


Apparently a lot of you don't think hearing about Christianity anywhere is a good idea. I would never consider leaving my children learning about Christianity to a school or even a church.

Apparently a lot of you don't think hearing about rational, free thought anywhere is good idea...

[AggieTool]

If people want to worship invisible sky gods that don't want us touching ourselves...than that's their beezwax.

Just keep it out of my tax funded public schools.:)

[Sooner_Bob]

Allowing a non-school directed prayer or prayer group to exist beyond the hours in which school is in session is fine. School directed prayer is brainwashing.


School directed = ?

Prayer lead by a teacher during school hours?



So we should just keep perpetuating that?


I think that will happen no matter what. Focusing on the "evils" of prayer in school IMO in no way perpetuates bigotry.



I'm too small to comprehend the universe. I'm not too small to comprehend the mythology of a culture.


Then why not allow religious aspects of a culture to be taught alongside the rest of the culture's history?





Apparently a lot of you don't think hearing about rational, free thought anywhere is good idea...

Since I'm for prayer means I'm irrational and incapable of free thought? I'm allowing people to think freely . . . even if that includes prayer of any kind.


Would you be offended by my family praying before a meal in a public restaurant?

[Sooner_Bob]

Just keep it out of my tax funded public schools.:)

What is allowed in your tax funded public schools?

[AggieTool]

What is allowed in your tax funded public schools?

Academics?:confused:

[JohnnyMack]

School directed = ?

Prayer lead by a teacher during school hours?

I don't think that's acceptable.


I think that will happen no matter what. Focusing on the "evils" of prayer in school IMO in no way perpetuates bigotry.

It's not the evil of prayer in school, it's the promotion of one mythology over another that causes the bigotry.


Then why not allow religious aspects of a culture to be taught alongside the rest of the culture's history?


Religion/Mythology can be taught in a History class or a Sociology class.


Since I'm for prayer means I'm irrational and incapable of free thought? I'm allowing people to think freely . . . even if that includes prayer of any kind.

Religion (like the monotheistic one you subscribe to) that relies on the supernatural is irrational.


Would you be offended by my family praying before a meal in a public restaurant?

Nope. While you're eyes are closed I can swipe your roll. :D

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Let's say somehow you ended up in a school where there is an Islamic(insert any religion really) teacher, now he wants to lead the class in prayer to Mecca every so often. You would be posting..."How dare they do that to my children!!!!!! I send my kids to school to learn not hear about some stupid bull****" Now imagine you are a Jewish, Islamic, Mormon, Scientology parent and imagine they are just enraged about the teaching of Christ to their children

[yermom]

then those people's kids need to be saved ;)

[Sooner_Bob]

Let's say somehow you ended up in a school where there is an Islamic(insert any religion really) teacher, now he wants to lead the class in prayer to Mecca every so often. You would be posting..."How dare they do that to my children!!!!!! I send my kids to school to learn not hear about some stupid bull****" Now imagine you are a Jewish, Islamic, Mormon, Scientology parent and imagine they are just enraged about the teaching of Christ to their children

As long as the kids aren't required to participate who really cares?















Chances are that teacher would be ran off anyway . . . :P

[Sooner_Bob]

I mean seriously . . . these prayers are during lunch and in my experience before a football game or something.

Are people being forced to participate? I don't think there are prayer wardens going around whacking folks with a ruler if they don't bow their heads.

[Pricetag]

My wife is not Catholic, but she went to a private Catholic high school. When you hear stuff over and over, regardless of whether you are "participating" or not, the stuff starts to sink in.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

If the teachers are told to teach to Christian principles then...yes in fact the children are forced to participate. IF they want to do this at lunch, before, or after school, that is totally fine.

[Sooner_Bob]

My wife is not Catholic, but she went to a private Catholic high school. When you hear stuff over and over, regardless of whether you are "participating" or not, the stuff starts to sink in.

I'm sure some of it probably does. But seriously, it was a private Catholic school what did she expect to be taught?

[Sooner_Bob]

If the teachers are told to teach to Christian principles then...yes in fact the children are forced to participate. IF they want to do this at lunch, before, or after school, that is totally fine.

A teacher living their life as an example of Christian principles inside the classroom or out is not a bad thing.

What is everyone's problem with that?

I'm not talking about cornering a kid and forcing scripture on them, I'm talking about setting a good example of how a person should live (it just happens that the teacher is a Christian).

[SoonerInFortSmith]

Exactly Bob. What classroom wouldn't be better if it was run using "Christian principles"? Even an atheist should be in favor of our children abiding by tenets such as the golden rule or "love thy neighbor."

[Soonrboy]

Why can't families be concerned about the religious upbringing of the children and let the schools concentrate on the academics

[Pricetag]

A teacher living their life as an example of Christian principles inside the classroom or out is not a bad thing.

What is everyone's problem with that?

I'm not talking about cornering a kid and forcing scripture on them, I'm talking about setting a good example of how a person should live (it just happens that the teacher is a Christian).
Nobody has a problem with that, as long as they're satisfied to do just the first paragraph here. The problem is that to nail home the Christian part of it, they have to do the "cornering a kid and forcing scripture on them" part. They have to talk about it, and it isn't their place anymore than it is their place to espouse their political views to their students. I hear so many folks rip on schools, particularly universities, for indoctrinating students with liberal ideas. How is religion any more appropriate?

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

In January, the Santa Rosa County School District settled out of court with the ACLU, agreeing to several things, including a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

To me, it sounds like they were idiots for agreeing to something legally binding and then just acting like they didn't.

[soonerscuba]

Exactly Bob. What classroom wouldn't be better if it was run using "Christian principles"? Even an atheist should be in favor of our children abiding by tenets such as the golden rule or "love thy neighbor."What about when religious principles fly directly in the face of the scientific method being taught in the same classroom? Love thy neighbor as an ethos is certainly older than Christianity and older than monotheistic religion itself. As a higher primate that works within a tribal pack, humans are hardwired to love their neighbors and distrust a stranger, we don't need a book to tell us that. I think what many take issue with is that it's not a crazy jump from scriptures about love to being a fisher of men, once again if this was Islam as opposed to the dominant American religion the view would be completely different.

[yermom]

Why can't families be concerned about the religious upbringing of the children and let the schools concentrate on the academics

exactly

[Sooner_Bob]

Why can't families be concerned about the religious upbringing of the children and let the schools concentrate on the academics

Did I ever say it was the schools job to handle the religious upbringing of a children?

I just simply said I think there are bigger fish to fry than worrying about a teacher leading a prayer during lunch or living a Christian example while teaching.

I'm not saying that an English teacher needs to assign kids bible-related work or anything. There are tons of private schools that incorporate that into their curriculum, but not everyone can afford it so if their kids are exposed to a good, decent person who just so happens to be a Christian I don't see the problem.

[Curly Bill]

It might warp their little minds. :rolleyes:

Of course with the way many of them are turning out they could use some good ol mind warping.

[yermom]

Did I ever say it was the schools job to handle the religious upbringing of a children?

I just simply said I think there are bigger fish to fry than worrying about a teacher leading a prayer during lunch or living a Christian example while teaching.

I'm not saying that an English teacher needs to assign kids bible-related work or anything. There are tons of private schools that incorporate that into their curriculum, but not everyone can afford it so if their kids are exposed to a good, decent person who just so happens to be a Christian I don't see the problem.

no one cares if they "just happen to be a Christian"

do they need to shout it from the rooftops? can't they just pray in private and keep the proselytizing out of the school?

[The Remnant]

Anyone for school vouchers?

[JohnnyMack]

Yes.

[Sooner_Bob]

no one cares if they "just happen to be a Christian"


Until they start acting like one and influencing your kid . . . right?




do they need to shout it from the rooftops? can't they just pray in private and keep the proselytizing out of the school?

How is saying a prayer in a small group of willing participants or over a meal "shouting from the rooftops" or proselytizing?

These teachers aren't Gideons handing out little bibles.




Look . . . I'm ok with my kids being taught in a public school. I don't think it is the school's job to teach religion, but I don't mind if it happens to influence how a teacher acts or offers their lessons to the kids.

[Sooner_Bob]

Animal Husbandry?:confused:

:D

[royalfan5]

A couple reflections on religion in school from my experience. Our PE teacher told us that he thought everyone should be Catholic because of the theraputic benefits of confession. We asked him the last time he went, and he said 1984. This was in 1999.

We prayed before a football game once. We lost 44-8. The next week we didn't pray and won 42-14, and I had two tackles for loss and a fumble recovery.

[Harry Beanbag]

We always had a prayer over the loudspeakers before football games, usually read by a cheerleader or class president or something, not a man of the cloth. Nobody had a problem with it, who is against praying for a clean, injury-free football game?

I am not a regular church goer and at this point in my life I am more of a Deist, but I just don't understand the militant opposition to anything religion related that is all the rage these days.

My thought is that it stems from the me first arrogance that seems to be prevalent now that goes along with the man made global warming hysteria that is based on the false belief that mankind has everything figured out and we are at an apex of civilization and worldwide evolution that must be preserved or else. Some people just have a difficult time understanding or believing that there is something bigger than themselves and their overgrown ego.

[Soonrboy]

here's what I'm opposed to:

People crying about prayers being taken out of schools when those same people don't bother praying with their own children at home. The same people who haven't bothered to get their asses up on a Sunday morning and take their kids to Sunday school or whatever.

There are many people in schools who I would not mind talking to my child about religious things. On the same note, there are many people in schools I absolutely do not want talking to my child about religion

[Pricetag]

My thought is that it stems from the me first arrogance that seems to be prevalent now
It's "me first" on both sides, really. The people who want it in the schools feel that way because it is their religion. They'd throw a **** fit if it were any other religion, but they know that they'll never likely be faced with that scenario, so they don't care.

I've always thought that the worst thing that could happen for the folks who want Christianity as part of the public sector would be it actually coming to pass. The power struggle over which brand would be the dominant one would be epic. They'd tear themselves apart.

[Harry Beanbag]

It's "me first" on both sides, really. The people who want it in the schools feel that way because it is their religion. They'd throw a **** fit if it were any other religion, but they know that they'll never likely be faced with that scenario, so they don't care.

I've always thought that the worst thing that could happen for the folks who want Christianity as part of the public sector would be it actually coming to pass. The power struggle over which brand would be the dominant one would be epic. They'd tear themselves apart.


You can cherry pick quotes out of context all day long to fit any argument I suppose.

[Sooner_Bob]

I've always thought that the worst thing that could happen for the folks who want Christianity as part of the public sector would be it actually coming to pass. The power struggle over which brand would be the dominant one would be epic. They'd tear themselves apart.

You really think so?

[Sooner_Bob]

My thought is that it stems from the me first arrogance that seems to be prevalent now that goes along with the man made global warming hysteria that is based on the false belief that mankind has everything figured out and we are at an apex of civilization and worldwide evolution that must be preserved or else. Some people just have a difficult time understanding or believing that there is something bigger than themselves and their overgrown ego.

Yep . . . man has gotten too big for his britches IMO.

[yermom]

yep, all those global warming me first environmentalists that are only concerned with themselves

[Pricetag]

You really think so?
You really think one would allow another to have the power?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

He-man had the power.

Totally.

He-man was a bad ***.

[GrapevineSooner]

Generally speaking on the issue of prayer in school and not necessarily in regards to this particular case...

Like on a lot of issues, there's some room ground that either side COULD give up but choose not to out of sheer stubborness.

Bottom line, limit it to student led prayer and let students of ALL faiths have the equal opportunity to pray if you're going to allow it.

[Pricetag]

I agree, Grapevine. Do you think that's what happened in this case?

[Harry Beanbag]

yep, all those global warming me first environmentalists that are only concerned with themselves

You really think radical environmentalism is based on saving the planet? It's about power, control, and money just like militant Islam is, using brainwashed pawns to do the dirty work.

[JohnnyMack]

You really think radical environmentalism is based on saving the planet? It's about power, control, and money just like militant Islam is, using brainwashed pawns to do the dirty work.

You're better than this.

[GrapevineSooner]

I agree, Grapevine. Do you think that's what happened in this case?

Originally, sure.

We all know the Religious Right have been making the Prayer in School one of their primary fronts in the "counter attack" on the War on Religion. As such, they're going to be looking to do a run around the whole 'you can't have faculty led prayer at school events' whenever they can. They're pushing the envelope.

And of course, the ACLU and other organizations like them, are going to do a little pushing back from time to time. And this is one of those cases where they chose to push back.

[Pricetag]

The school district had been found wrong in a court of law previously and agreed to knock it off, and then they turned right around and kept on going. I don't see how they could not have pushed back.

[Harry Beanbag]

So will there be jail time as punishment for praying in this deal?

[85Sooner]

So will there be jail time as punishment for praying in this deal?
From what the news was reporting the possible penalties are
up to 5000.00 fine,up to six months in jail and possible loss of accumulated pension.

[Sooner_Bob]

You really think one would allow another to have the power?

What are you talking about? What power? It's a prayer not re-writing the curriculum.

[Sooner_Bob]

yep, all those global warming me first environmentalists that are only concerned with themselves

What's global warming got to do with this? You honestly think that there's not a predominant me first attitude, or what do I get out if it attitude in today's society?

[Sooner_Bob]

Bottom line, limit it to student led prayer and let students of ALL faiths have the equal opportunity to pray if you're going to allow it.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[JohnnyMack]

My thought is that it stems from the me first arrogance that seems to be prevalent now that goes along with the man made global warming hysteria that is based on the false belief that mankind has everything figured out and we are at an apex of civilization and worldwide evolution that must be preserved or else. Some people just have a difficult time understanding or believing that there is something bigger than themselves and their overgrown ego.


I really don't get how someone who is an atheist can be considered the arrogant one. I don't have all the answers, have never claimed to know much about anything.

I would counter with two questions for you:

1. Given that our planet is loaded with religions and mythologies, some of which are active, others that have faded away, how can you be 100% certain that the belief system dominated by the culture you happen to have been born into is in fact the truth?

2. Watch this video and then explain to me what it means to you:

mcBV-cXVWFw

[royalfan5]

What are you talking about? What power? It's a prayer not re-writing the curriculum.

There are some Christian denominations that would rather not pray with those who are outside their denomination. E.G. WELS and LCMS Lutherans.

[yermom]

What's global warming got to do with this? You honestly think that there's not a predominant me first attitude, or what do I get out if it attitude in today's society?

read the post i was responding to. i don't follow the logic either.

there's plenty of me first in society, and it's not just the non-religious folks...

[Harry Beanbag]

1. Given that our planet is loaded with religions and mythologies, some of which are active, others that have faded away, how can you be 100% certain that the belief system dominated by the culture you happen to have been born into is in fact the truth?

I never said anything remotely close to what you are trying to refute.

[Pricetag]

What are you talking about? What power? It's a prayer not re-writing the curriculum.
IMO, prayer/religion in public schools is the most significant front in a battle over whether or not Christianity mixes with government.

[JohnnyMack]

I never said anything remotely close to what you are trying to refute.

Oh. Right.

[yermom]

IMO, prayer/religion in public schools is the most significant front in a battle over whether or not Christianity mixes with government.

i remember Jesus saying something about that: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2022:21;&version=31;68;

[yermom]

I never said anything remotely close to what you are trying to refute.

the fact is that you and Achmed could probably fight to the death over your religion that most likely was taught to you from infancy due to who your parents were or where you grew up

[TopDawg]

As long as the kids aren't required to participate who really cares?

Sooner_Bob, you've brought this point up several times. But the article states (emphasis added):


the ACLU sued Santa Rosa County Schools on behalf of two students who had complained privately to the group's Florida affiliate, claiming some teachers and administrators were allowing prayers at school events such as graduations, orchestrating separate religiously themed graduation services, and "proselytizing" students during class and after school.

You brought up the football game scenario. Now, while nobody is required to attend a football game (or graduation), do you think it's acceptable for the public school, which is supposed to support their students no matter what faith, to "endorse" Christianity above the other faiths by having a Christian-based prayer read at a football game (or graduation)? Is it okay for the school to say "If you don't like Christian prayers, just come to the game (or graduation) later...after we've prayed"?

The ACLU director of litigation said "We believe students have the constitutional right to pray voluntarily in public or private. Constitutional problems arise only when public school officials promote or endorse prayer or specific religious views."

Which seems to be very similar to what you're saying when you say:


A teacher living their life as an example of Christian principles inside the classroom or out is not a bad thing.

What is everyone's problem with that?

I'm not talking about cornering a kid and forcing scripture on them, I'm talking about setting a good example of how a person should live (it just happens that the teacher is a Christian)."

I may be speaking out of turn here, but I don't think anyone in this thread has a problem with student-led prayer in schools as long as the school doesn't give preferential treatment to one religion over another (like letting one say their prayers over the PA system at the football game, but not any of the others). And I don't think anybody has a problem with a teacher "setting a good example of how a person should live."

The problem is that this school agreed to this (emphasis added, again):


a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

and then violated that agreement. That's why they face criminal charges.

So I'm kinda confused about what you're debating about. Do you think what happened in the article is unjust?

[Crucifax Autumn]

That Deep Field vid is AWESOME!

[jthomasou78]

I live here in Pensacola and a few things that are largely missed in this discussion.

One, Pace high school is about the same make up and size of say a Weatherford, Clinton, small town class 4A school. I would venture to say 98% of the kids that go to the high school are Christian and 75% of those Southern Baptist. I'm not saying it makes it right, I'm just explaining the demographics.

One of the two children who complained father is the President of the local ACLU.

The Principal had been warned, had been to court, and had a settlement previous to this discrepency. I think that there is an issue absent of church and state with this issue. The principal has the ability to show his students about owning the consequences of his actions, and being true to your word. He knew he was not supposed to have prayer at school functions, and he chose to do so. There are consequences for those actions, he may not agree with them, but he knew they were there.

[Harry Beanbag]

the fact is that you and Achmed could probably fight to the death over your religion that most likely was taught to you from infancy due to who your parents were or where you grew up

I don't really know where this comment came from, but the same could be said of you.

I think some of you need to go back and reread my post and look very closely for the part where I said I'm a devout Southern Baptist and everyone that doesn't believe what I believe is going to Hell. :rolleyes:

[Harry Beanbag]

From what the news was reporting the possible penalties are
up to 5000.00 fine,up to six months in jail and possible loss of accumulated pension.

That sounds awesome. We've come a long way in this country the last 200+ years. Religious persecution is back, baby!

[Harry Beanbag]

Oh. Right.

I guess you missed this part...?


I am not a regular church goer and at this point in my life I am more of a Deist, but I just don't understand the militant opposition to anything religion related that is all the rage these days.

I never said anything about any certain religion being taught in schools or whether or not I thought it was a good idea. It was just a general statement on the very vocal anti-God (regardless of specifics) faction. I've stated my thoughts on religion in this forum before, and it wasn't kind any organized religion.

[Veritas]

2. Watch this video and then explain to me what it means to you:
It means the universe is too massively large for any of us to proclaim a monopoly on truth. Actually, study of the universe is what led me to my current position of faith, which would be best described as agnostic theism: I have seen no evidence to prove or disprove God however I choose to believe anyway.

There is, however, something I don't get, and maybe you full blown atheist types can explain it to me:
I don't believe in unicorns. I think they're a complete figment of the imagination. But I'm not getting on message boards, reading or writing books, and making my lack of belief in unicorns a primary component of my self identification. Why do you do so with your lack of belief in a god?

[OklahomaTuba]

Why do you do so with your lack of belief in a god?Most atheists (not all, but most) I have encountered personally are exactly like this. I bring up the fact that I am a follower of Jesus Christ and you can just see their eyes light up in a rage.

Sadly, I believe they are just hate-filled bigots. They seemed to be consumed with hate for all things Christian, not all that different from any other hate-group. And we wonder how the thought police in Pensacola get away with stuff like this.

[Pricetag]

Most atheists (not all, but most) I have encountered personally are exactly like this. I bring up the fact that I am a follower of Jesus Christ and you can just see their eyes light up in a rage.

Sadly, I believe they are just hate-filled bigots. They seemed to be consumed with hate for all things Christian, not all that different from any other hate-group. And we wonder how the thought police in Pensacola get away with stuff like this.
Tuba, do you talk in your non-message board life the same way you do over here? If so, it may the delivery that they are reacting to, not necessarily the things that you are saying.

[Veritas]

Sadly, I believe they are just hate-filled bigots. They seemed to be consumed with hate for all things Christian, not all that different from any other hate-group.
That's a little extreme. I could hardly lump the hostile athiests that I know in with skinheads or gay-bashers.

What I don't get, and am asking about, is why the lack of a belief in God becomes such a key part in self-identification.

[TopDawg]

That's a little extreme. I could hardly lump the hostile athiests that I know in with skinheads or gay-bashers.

What I don't get, and am asking about, is why the lack of a belief in God becomes such a key part in self-identification.

I would assume it's mostly a response/reaction to the presence of a belief in God being such a key part in the self-identification of others.

I bet if a strong "I believe in unicorns" movement got started and became a centuries-long part of human culture, you'd see a change in the way people who don't believe in unicorns act.

[Veritas]

I bet if a strong "I believe in unicorns" movement got started and became a centuries-long part of human culture, you'd see a change in the way people who don't believe in unicorns act.
That's the answer I usually get, and while that makes sense to a certain extent, it is inadequate in explaining the hatred, hostility, and bitterness that I see from *many* but *not all* atheists.

Here's my personal theory. I identify two types of atheists and both are the result of diametrically opposed upbringings.

My friend Jeff would be one type. Jeff grew up in a very radically Pentecostal Christian home. He's not as hostile as he used to be, but to put it simply, his bitterness and anger is driven by the trauma of his youth.

My buddy Chris would be another type. Chris grew up in England and was never really exposed to religion of any kind. He's not remotely hostile, but has learned that here in the states people usually think you're weird if you don't believe in some type of god, so he doesn't really advertise his atheism (or agnosticism, depending on the day).

I don't know any angry atheists who haven't been burned badly by religion. And they usually get mad at me for saying this, but that anger and bitterness is usually a result of the actions of ****head Christians (who unfortunately make up the majority in this country).

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba, do you talk in your non-message board life the same way you do over here? If so, it may the delivery that they are reacting to, not necessarily the things that you are saying.:D

[OklahomaTuba]

And they usually get mad at me for saying this, but that anger and bitterness is usually a result of the actions of ****head Christians (who unfortunately make up the majority in this country).What were you saying about extreme comments????? 200+ million ****heads is a lot of ****heads.

[Veritas]

What were you saying about extreme comments????? 200+ million ****heads is a lot of ****heads.
What I'm saying is that of those who call themselves Christians, many of them, myself included, do an extraordinarily poor job of representing what Christ presented. We as Christians wonder why there's such hostility while we continue to judge people with extreme harshness as they walk through church doors, continue to build multimillion-dollar monuments to our own perceived largesse, and and continue to treat those who do not believe as some type of inferior beings.

"****head" seemed easier than typing all that out.

[TopDawg]

Hey Veritas, have you read the book unChristian? (http://www.amazon.com/unChristian-Generation-Really-Christianity-Matters/dp/0801013003/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250524095&sr=8-1) I've cracked it, but then got into another book and haven't gotten back to it. It looks interesting though.

[stoopified]

"****head" seemed easier than typing all that out.Easier yes but not nearly as eloquent or accurate.I was prepared to take umbrage at your post until you elaborated in this follow-up post.Now I am inclined to see your point and in fact concede it.

[JohnnyMack]

It means the universe is too massively large for any of us to proclaim a monopoly on truth. Actually, study of the universe is what led me to my current position of faith, which would be best described as agnostic theism: I have seen no evidence to prove or disprove God however I choose to believe anyway.

There is, however, something I don't get, and maybe you full blown atheist types can explain it to me:
I don't believe in unicorns. I think they're a complete figment of the imagination. But I'm not getting on message boards, reading or writing books, and making my lack of belief in unicorns a primary component of my self identification. Why do you do so with your lack of belief in a god?

Does sitting on Occams razor irritate your tender buttocks?

While I do enjoy reading about both the history of religion as well as reading about the cultural impact of religion on society's I don't know that I would call it my primary component of my self-identification any more than I think a christian is solely identified by his or her religious identity.

Furthermore religion and its impact on society is a lot more relevant than a unicorn.

[JohnnyMack]

It means the universe is too massively large for any of us to proclaim a monopoly on truth.

Exactly.


Actually, study of the universe is what led me to my current position of faith, which would be best described as agnostic theism: I have seen no evidence to prove or disprove God however I choose to believe anyway.

Wait. What? Dude you're a reasonably well educated, sometimes thoughtful, mildly introspective little bugeater. You have more common sense than most people around here. How is it that you've can come to the conclusion that a patriarchal deity that sits on a throne in the clouds and sends down rainbows, puppies, childhood cancer, genocide, nuclear weapons and Lady Gaga is your road to salvation? That's what I don't get.

[MrJimBeam]

Academics?:confused:

Where have you been the last 40 years.

We can't teach students english or math but we're concerned these teachers might learn'em Christian? I figure if the students leave class at the end of the day having learned the 10 Commandments it would be a major accomplishment for the American education system.

[OklahomaTuba]

How is it that you've can come to the conclusion that a patriarchal deity that sits on a throne in the clouds and sends down rainbows, puppies, childhood cancer, genocide, nuclear weapons and Lady Gaga is your road to salvation?If that's really what your understanding of spirituality is, then it's no surprise that you don't grasp it.

[Harry Beanbag]

Wait. What? Dude you're a reasonably well educated, sometimes thoughtful, mildly introspective little bugeater. You have more common sense than most people around here. How is it that you've can come to the conclusion that a patriarchal deity that sits on a throne in the clouds and sends down rainbows, puppies, childhood cancer, genocide, nuclear weapons and Lady Gaga is your road to salvation? That's what I don't get.


He also brought us OU football. That by itself makes up for all those other things. ;)

[stoopified]

Exactly.



Wait. What? Dude you're a reasonably well educated, sometimes thoughtful, mildly introspective little bugeater. You have more common sense than most people around here. How is it that you've can come to the conclusion that a patriarchal deity that sits on a throne in the clouds and sends down rainbows, puppies, childhood cancer, genocide, nuclear weapons and Lady Gaga is your road to salvation? That's what I don't get.While i cannot speak for Veritas or anyone else I can tell you this:GOD created a perfect world and the things you blame on GOD are man's doing not the work of God.Childhood cancer and disease come from man poisoning of,air,water,earth.Genocide,nuclear weapons are the fault of man,not God.The same is true of all the woes of mankind.Man was given a gift from GOD,it is called FREE WILL.It means that you can choose to be thoughtful,loving,caring ang generous or you can be filled with rage,hatred,sel-absorbtionor utter indifference
.God created man,man chooses his own path.

My question is can any person of education believe that the universe was created through a galctic string of random circumstances? For those that do swallow THE BIG BANG THEORY as a way to explain esistence,how do you explain the MIRACULOUS nature of a tiny bit of matter expanding to create THE UNIVERSE and then bring forth life from nothing? My final question is IF there is no GOD , does ANYONE believe that there is no greater intelligence in the Universe than man?

[TopDawg]

I think "galactic string of random circumstances" is about as plausible as "all-powerful, all-knowing being created it all." I don't think either one makes more sense than the other. I happen to believe in God and try to follow Jesus, but that doesn't mean I think my view is the only one that makes sense.

So I guess my question is: how can any person of education think they have the answer to the question of God?

[yermom]

i'm not about to force you to listen to me pray to my "galactic string of random circumstances" before a football game though

[Veritas]

Wait. What? Dude you're a reasonably well educated, sometimes thoughtful, mildly introspective little bugeater. You have more common sense than most people around here. How is it that you've can come to the conclusion that a patriarchal deity that sits on a throne in the clouds and sends down rainbows, puppies, childhood cancer, genocide, nuclear weapons and Lady Gaga is your road to salvation? That's what I don't get.
Rainbows are the result of the prismatic effect of a lens on light.

Puppies are the result of biological processes that may have evolved over kajillions of years or may have had some guidance from a deity.

Childhood cancer is just as unfortunate as the cancer my dad has, but because it happens to cute little innocents, we all wring our hands over it more. Either way, it's evidence of the fact that human organisms are imperfect units.

Genocide is a result of the fact that we has humans have choices in the way we choose to conduct ourselves, and sometimes we humans choose to conduct ourselves in a simply ghastly manner.

Nuclear weapons are the result of human minds.

Lady Gaga...I have nothing for that.

As to deciding that some deity is my road to salvation, I probably can't provide an answer that will satisfy you. The short version is that after meandering through my twenties I decided that all religions were the same damn thing, with the exception of the fact that Christianity has one thing that is different from every other religion: grace. I could write a book about that one simple concept, how powerful it is, and how absolutely lost it is on American Christianity.

The mathematical precision of the universe dictates *to me* that there is something immensely powerful at work. You mentioned Occam's razor earlier. I've watched scientists go through extreme intellectual contortions to explain how the universe could be as it is without a god being in the picture. It seems so much simpler to accommodate that there is a god thing for which we may never have an explanation.

FWIW, Mack, most Christian people think I'm as crazy for not believing like they do as you do for my believing at all.

[85Sooner]

I think "galactic string of random circumstances" is about as plausible as "all-powerful, all-knowing being created it all." I don't think either one makes more sense than the other. I happen to believe in God and try to follow Jesus, but that doesn't mean I think my view is the only one that makes sense.

So I guess my question is: how can any person of education think they have the answer to the question of God?

Okay but alot of people who have "eductation" actually think they are smart, all evidence to the contrary. Yes?

[TopDawg]

A lot of people who have education think they are smart, all evidence to the contrary. TRUE

A lot of people who do not have education think they are smart, all evidence to the contrary. TRUE

[TopDawg]

i'm not about to force you to listen to me pray to my "galactic string of random circumstances" before a football game though

And I wouldn't force you to listen to me pray to my "all-powerful, all-knowing being who created it all."

[JohnnyMack]

I don't know about the big bang or any of that crap in terms of the origin of the universe, but I do wanna know this: our universe has at conservative estimates, 100 billion galaxies. Our galaxy is so flipping massive that we'll never be able to explore all of it, much less focus on any serious attention on a neighboring galaxy. Given the sheer magnitude of the universe, why is it that it's only in the last 2000 years that a deity that can claim this universe as his/her/its creation? And why make such a ridiculously massive place just for us?

[yermom]

Jesus' siblings saved those other planets

[GrapevineSooner]

Jesus' siblings saved those other planets

And his siblings died for their inhabitants' sins. ;)

[def_lazer_fc]

I don't know about the big bang or any of that crap in terms of the origin of the universe, but I do wanna know this: our universe has at conservative estimates, 100 billion galaxies. Our galaxy is so flipping massive that we'll never be able to explore all of it, much less focus on any serious attention on a neighboring galaxy. Given the sheer magnitude of the universe, why is it that it's only in the last 2000 years that a deity that can claim this universe as his/her/its creation? And why make such a ridiculously massive place just for us?

this is kinda my thinking too. what was the purpose of making other planets? why make a sun? you're god. just make it light during the day and dark at night. the bible seems so simplistic about everything which makes sense to me considering the time period that it was written.

[yermom]

actually that's because the Mormons are the right ones

or is it the Scientologists? i always seem to mix up those South Park episodes

[Hot Rod]

this is kinda my thinking too. what was the purpose of making other planets? why make a sun? you're god. just make it light during the day and dark at night. the bible seems so simplistic about everything which makes sense to me considering the time period that it was written.

God can give things multiple purposes. The sun is our daylight, heat, center of our universe, and the object that our planet is gravitated to at the precise location for life to survive.

Why make just one planet? Aren't creative people (writers, artists) trying to show off their work in more than just one aspect?

[mdklatt]

The sun is...the object that our planet is gravitated to at the precise location for life to survive.

And my legs are the perfect length for my feet reach the ground!

[My Opinion Matters]

How is it that you've can come to the conclusion that a patriarchal deity that sits on a throne in the clouds and sends down rainbows, puppies, childhood cancer, genocide, nuclear weapons and Lady Gaga is your road to salvation? That's what I don't get.

This is certainly not arrogant, condescending, or bigoted at all. You're certainly more enlightened than those barbaric religious folks.

[JohnnyMack]

This is certainly not arrogant, condescending, or bigoted at all. You're certainly more enlightened than those barbaric religious folks.

I was joking around with my friend V. Lighten up.

And go back and answer my question about the Christian god and the size of the universe.

[TopDawg]

I don't know about the big bang or any of that crap in terms of the origin of the universe, but I do wanna know this: our universe has at conservative estimates, 100 billion galaxies. Our galaxy is so flipping massive that we'll never be able to explore all of it, much less focus on any serious attention on a neighboring galaxy. Given the sheer magnitude of the universe, why is it that it's only in the last 2000 years that a deity that can claim this universe as his/her/its creation? And why make such a ridiculously massive place just for us?

Why think that our limited human knowledge and understanding gives us the ability to discern what is the best way to create something as large as...everything?

Maybe God did it that way because that was the best way to do it. Maybe there's something going on or something that will be going on that we don't know about yet. Maybe not.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. All I'm saying is that we can both say "I don't get it" and still come to different conclusions about how it came to be. Your predisposition takes you from "I don't get it" to "so there isn't a God" while mine takes me from "I don't get it" to "But I'm not God, so maybe I shouldn't expect to."

[My Opinion Matters]

I was joking around with my friend V. Lighten up.

And go back and answer my question about the Christian god and the size of the universe.

Considering modern science is just as incapable as religion at providing a sufficient explanation to the mysteries of the universe it's not incumbent upon me to answer anything. Unlike some, I am aware of the boundaries of my own human intellect.

[Veritas]

I was joking around with my friend V. Lighten up.
Yeah, well, I just asked my invisible skygod to smite thee down. You'd better watch your ***!!!!!111


And go back and answer my question about the Christian god and the size of the universe.
My answer is "hell if I know." Also, I don't personally think we're the only intelligent life in the universe. The math indicates that there has to be something else out there, but the math also says we don't have a chance in hell of finding them.

[JohnnyMack]

Considering modern science is just as incapable as religion at providing a sufficient explanation to the mysteries of the universe it's not incumbent upon me to answer anything. Unlike some, I am aware of the boundaries of my own human intellect.

What the hell does that even mean?

[My Opinion Matters]

What the hell does that even mean?

You know exactly what that means, but I'll play.

It means I don't pretend to have all the answers, and that I don't summarily dismiss explanations that I might not fully comprehend.

[yermom]

there is no evidence. just because we don't understand the complexity of something doesn't prove the existence of a god that created it

[My Opinion Matters]

there is no evidence. just because we don't understand the complexity of something doesn't prove the existence of a god that created it

Nor does it disprove it.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Can I still worship Odin freely?

[TopDawg]

there is no evidence. just because we don't understand the complexity of something doesn't prove the existence of a god that created it


Nor does it disprove it.

You're both right.

It doesn't surprise me that someone who is already inclined to believe that there is no God can look at the vastness of the universe and think "There's no way all of this was created by some invisible being in the sky."

It also doesn't surprise me that someone who is already inclined to believe that there is a God can look at the vastness of the universe and think "There's no way all of this happened by chance."

I don't think that contemplating the origins of the universe is the way that many people find or reject God. Most come to the contemplation of the universe from a certain upbringing or having had a certain personal experience that has led them to believe in the presence or absence of God. It is through that subjective lens that they (people on both sides of the issue) observe and interpret things like the creation of the universe.

[Crucifax Autumn]

When I gaze at the sky it generally makes me believe in the existence of stars.

[Sooner_Bob]

Here's what I find ironic.



The Lord's Prayer is Matthew 6:9-13.

Matthew 6:5-6 (right before the Lord's Prayer) is

IMO I think you're interpretation of that is just a little off and out of context. I have no doubts that prayer in private is much better for communing with God, but I fail to see how praying over a meal in public or a large group saying the Lord's Prayer is interpreted as hypocritical. I think it would safe to say that while there may be some wanting to call attention to themselves that many are doing it solely to glorify God. IMO it is all about intent.

What about public prayers in church? Is that hypocritical also?

[Pricetag]

I would consider a church a private setting, especially considering the definition of "public" that we're talking about here.

[Sooner_Bob]

I would consider a church a private setting, especially considering the definition of "public" that we're talking about here.

:confused:

No wonder this thread has been all over the place . . . :P