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CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 11:24 AM
Sunday, July 19, 2009 6:32 PM

By: David A. Patten

On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama.

The House Ways and Means Committee nixed the Heller amendment by a 26-to-15 vote along straight party lines, and followed this action by passing the 1,018-page bill early Friday morning by a 23-to-18 margin, with three Democrats voting against the plan.

The Democratic plan will embrace Obama’s vision of bringing free government medical care to more than 45 million uninsured people in America – a significant portion of whom are illegal aliens.

According to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, costs under the Obama plan being proposed by the House will saddle citizens with $1.04 trillion in new federal outlays over the next decade.

Congressional Democrats and Obama have argued that their health plan is necessary to contain rising health care costs.

But, last Thursday, CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf testified before the Senate Budget Committee and warned lawmakers that the proposed “legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs."

A key factor increasing costs is that Democratic plan provides for blanket coverage to as much as 15 percent of the U.S. population not currently insured, including illegals.

Democrats had insisted throughout the health-care reform debate that illegals would be ineligible for the so-called public option plan that is to be subsidized by taxpayers.

"We're not going to cover undocumented aliens, undocumented workers," Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, told reporters in May. "That's too politically explosive."

Republicans, however, point out that the Democrats, by refusing to accept the Heller amendment, would deny health agencies from conducting simple database checks to verify citizenship. Many states give illegals driver licenses, which will be sufficient to get free health care under the plan.

Critics also contend that millions of illegals who already have counterfeit Social Security cards or other fraudulent documents. There is no enforcement mechanism in the legislation, experts say, to prevent illegals who use fake IDs to obtain jobs from also obtaining taxpayer-subsidized health insurance.

GOP representatives introduced the amendment to provide a way to weed out non-citizens from the program.

A description of the amendment on Heller's Web site state it would "better screen applicants for subsidized health care to ensure they are actually citizens or otherwise entitled to it."

The Web post added, "The underlying bill is insufficient for the purpose of preventing illegal aliens from accessing the bill’s proposed benefits, as it does not provide mechanisms allowing those administering the program to ensure illegal aliens cannot access taxpayer-funded subsidies and benefits."

The Heller amendment would have required that individuals applying for the public health care option would be subject to two systems used to verify immigration status already in use by the government: The Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program.

The two systems cross-reference Social Security numbers and employment information to establish whether an individual is a U.S. citizen

Critics: Free Health Care Means More Illegals

A recent Rasmussen Reports poll found that an overwhelming 80 percent of Americans oppose covering illegals in any public health care bill.

Anti-immigration activists say the availability of low-cost benefits, including health insurance and in-state tuition, will only lure more immigrants to come to the United States.

Political analyst Dick Morris, in his recently released best-selling book “Catastrophe”, warns that giving illegal free health care will lead to a flood of new illegals who can take advantage of such a benefit not offered in their home countries.

William Gheen, president of Americans for Legal Immigration, agrees with that sentiment, writing, "Each state and federal elected official must know that illegal aliens should not be given licenses, in-state tuition, mortgages, bank accounts, welfare, or any other benefit short of emergency medical care and law enforcement accommodations before they are deported."

But a small fraction of illegals end up deported, as many make widespread use of fake IDs to easily gain access to government benefits programs.

"Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment," wrote Ronald W. Mortensen in a recent Center for Immigration Studies research paper. Mortensen says one of the big misconceptions about illegals is that they are undocumented.

James R. Edwards Jr., co-author of The Congressional Politics of Immigration Reform, recently wrote on National Review Online that "it's hard to envision how health reform can avoid tripping the immigration booby trap."

Edwards says none of the legislation under consideration actually requires any state, federal, or local agency to check the immigration status of those who apply for the program.

The assumption is that companies have vetted their employees to ensure they are eligibility for legal employment – a difficult task for employers given the active market in fraudulent documents. Thus Edwards maintains "some of the money distributed … inevitably would go to illegal aliens."

The estimates of illegal aliens in the United States without health insurance vary. The most commonly cited statistic, attributed to the Center for Immigration Statistics and the U.S. Census Bureau, holds that 15 percent to 22 percent of the nation's 46 million uninsured are illegal aliens. That would be between 6.9 million and 10.1 million people. During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama claimed the nation United States has 12 million or more undocumented aliens.

John Sheils of the Lewin Group, a health care consulting firm owned by UnitedHealth Group, recently told National Public Radio that about 6.1 million illegals – about half of all illegals in the United States – lack documentation and therefore would not be legally eligible for benefits under the current health care reforms.

Sheils says the other half of the nation's illegals – 5 million to 6 million – use false documents to obtain on-the-books employment. Many of them are already insured under their employers' plans, he added.

"A lot of those people are getting employer health benefits as part of their compensation," Sheils told NPR.

Certainly, some contend that undocumented workers who are gainfully employed and receiving benefits such as health insurance are contributing to society. But the fact remains that, once equipped with a fake ID, a person in the United States illegally can obtain both a job and the benefits that go with it.

Estimates of the cost of providing illegals with medical care vary. Most uninsured illegals who need medical attention obtain it from hospital emergency rooms. And several states are already straining under the huge burden of paying for the health costs of illegal aliens.

According to the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), in 2004 California's estimated cost of unreimbursed medical care was $1.4 billion. *Texas* estimated its cost at $850 million annually, and Arizona at $400 million.

Non-border states shoulder heavy burdens as well. Virginia's annual cost of providing health care for undocumented workers is approximately $100 million per year, FAIR reports, while Florida's health care cost is about $300 million annually.

One of the ironies of the proposed legislation is that it would fine American citizens who opt not to purchase insurance coverage, but would exempt illegals from such fines. This is presumably due to the fact that they are not supposed to participate in the program anyway.

Even if no illegals were likely to benefit from health care reform, Democrats have made it clear that amnesty is the next item on their ambitious legislative agenda.

"I've got to do health care, I've got to do energy, and then I'm looking very closely at doing immigration," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., declared in June.

Reid explained the urgent need for amnesty in terms very similar to those that Democrats have used to press for health care reform. "We have an immigration system that's broken and needs repair," Reid said.

Immigration expert Edwards, for one, says health-care reform may itself need serious medical attention before it is healthy enough pass through Congress.

"The American people may soon realize how much health reform will benefit immigrants and cost the native-born," he writes. "When that happens, the volatile politics of immigration could derail universal health care."

© 2009 Newsmax. All rights reserved

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/health_care_obama/2009/07/19/237484.html

BornandBred
7/21/2009, 11:40 AM
The parallels between what is happening today and what is in Atlas Shrugged are astounding to me. While immigration is never really covered in the book, the concept of penalizing the law abiding(hard working) to the benefit of those outside the law(lazy) is what finally drives Atlas to shrug. This government expect the rich and productive to carry the country's burdens forever, some day, they will give it up and/or leave.

TheHumanAlphabet
7/21/2009, 12:26 PM
What will happen when there are no more hard working people.

I suspect secession and a fence to keep out the lazy and protect the hard working...most likely in the middle U.S.

BornandBred
7/21/2009, 12:28 PM
What will happen when there are no more hard working people.

I suspect secession and a fence to keep out the lazy and protect the hard working...most likely in the middle U.S.

Canabalism, I hope.

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 12:33 PM
Well if those naughty republican CEOs would quit hiring them so we could have cheap stuff.....:)

BornandBred
7/21/2009, 12:42 PM
What will happen when there are no more hard working people.

I suspect secession and a fence to keep out the lazy and protect the hard working...most likely in the middle U.S.

Also, I suspect when that time comes, a fence won't be required. Anyone hard working enough to find it deserves to be there. Some of the hardest working people in the US are illegals, that's the contradiction. They just need a path to legality. I'd be happy to permanently employ the illegals I've delt with. They work 4 times harder than anyone I've ever seen.

Chuck Bao
7/21/2009, 01:48 PM
There was this one point several years ago that I thought the US would be a world beater. We have this tremendous technology, unparalled efficiency per worker, one of the highest university graduation rates, an almost unexhaustable cheap work force whether legal or illegal, the strongest banking system in the world and the capital market to supply needed capital to the burgeoning opportunities presented by new technology. How could Europe ever expect to compete, even with the opening up of new cheap labor from Eastern Europe?

What happened?

President Obama?

My Oklahoma family is pretty much opposed to anything Obama says and does. They still are not in favor of denying US born kids health care when needed. I have to agree.

Our American dream has faded and I don't know what to think. Should I consider what my German ancestors would think just as they arrived in the US in time for the Civil War. They didn't get health care.

Or, I should take the perspective of my grandparents who narrowly surived to stay in Oklahoma during the Dust Bowl days and missed out on the exodus to California and the harsh treatment of economic migrants there. There, but for the grace of God...

NormanPride
7/21/2009, 02:00 PM
This sucks.

Scott D
7/21/2009, 02:01 PM
The parallels between what is happening today and what is in Atlas Shrugged are astounding to me. While immigration is never really covered in the book, the concept of penalizing the law abiding(hard working) to the benefit of those outside the law(lazy) is what finally drives Atlas to shrug. This government expect the rich and productive to carry the country's burdens forever, some day, they will give it up and/or leave.

be honest, how many times did you fall asleep reading that?

Scott D
7/21/2009, 02:01 PM
oh, and so this plan would cover 12 million illegals as compared to the 27 million that get free health care now? :P

OklahomaTuba
7/21/2009, 02:05 PM
I'd be happy to permanently employ the illegals I've delt with. They work 4 times harder than anyone I've ever seen.
I'd be willing to bet that the 2.5 million+ US Citizens who have lost their jobs in the last 6 months or so would also be willing to be permanently employed as well.

JLEW1818
7/21/2009, 02:06 PM
obama must not want to win in 2012...

JLEW1818
7/21/2009, 02:09 PM
If the economy is like this in 3 years.... i really think the Democrats could nominate somebody else... when is the last time that happened? Cleveland?

BornandBred
7/21/2009, 02:18 PM
be honest, how many times did you fall asleep reading that?

It took me like 3 months to read the first 200 pages. The rest, I've read in less than 1.

OklahomaTuba
7/21/2009, 02:21 PM
If the economy is like this in 3 years.... i really think the Democrats could nominate somebody else... when is the last time that happened? Cleveland?You know, given the disaster Obama is turning out to be, I think it could very well happen.

Don't be surprised to see Hillary resign sometime in the next year or so. She looks F'king miserable.

BornandBred
7/21/2009, 02:25 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the 2.5 million+ US Citizens who have lost their jobs in the last 6 months or so would also be willing to be permanently employed as well.

They weren't replaced by illegals, the jobs were closed or given to somebody else who was better equipped. In a truly capitalist society, the best worker gets the job, period. There is no affirmative action. If that worker is somebody from mexico, fine. I say get the man a work visa and get it done. The country will be better for it.

My heart goes out to all those hardworking individuals that lost their paychecks. But, they are the same ones that will come out on the other side of this thing stronger. Does that ease their pain or fill their bellies, no. But a truly productive person will overcome whatever situation they face, in the long run.

Scott D
7/21/2009, 02:30 PM
You know, given the disaster Obama is turning out to be, I think it could very well happen.

Don't be surprised to see Hillary resign sometime in the next year or so. She looks F'king miserable.

you'd look like that too if your husband was interested in porking any female but you. ;)

badger
7/21/2009, 02:38 PM
you'd look like that too if your husband was interested in porking any female but you. ;)

yes, yes i probably would :(

:P

SanJoaquinSooner
7/21/2009, 06:35 PM
I don't know why so many get a bug up their *** over illegals. It's old people that are so damned expensive. Ever seen how many meds they get at the pharmacy? Holy ****!

They've had 40 working years to save money for their golden years. Let them pay for their own health care.

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 06:56 PM
I don't know why so many get a bug up their *** over illegals. It's old people that are so damned expensive. Ever seen how many meds they get at the pharmacy? Holy ****!

They've had 40 working years to save money for their golden years. Let them pay for their own health care.

Please tell me you are tryin to make a joke :confused:

Turd_Ferguson
7/21/2009, 07:00 PM
I don't know why so many get a bug up their *** over illegals. It's old people that are so damned expensive. Ever seen how many meds they get at the pharmacy? Holy ****!

They've had 40 working years to save money for their golden years. Let them pay for their own health care.Whatever LAS err I mean Juan.:D

AlbqSooner
7/21/2009, 08:06 PM
I don't know why so many get a bug up their *** over illegals. It's old people that are so damned expensive. Ever seen how many meds they get at the pharmacy? Holy ****!

They've had 40 working years to save money for their golden years. Let them pay for their own health care.

1. Illegal = against the law, not legal, cheating.

2. Those of us who have had 40 working years to save money for our golden years might have had more had we been ILLEGALLY obtaining that money from the honest hard working taxpayers.

3. The cost of our current medical requirements would be substantially less if the health care industry did not have to raise those costs to cover the losses they sustain in providing unreimbursed care to ILLEGAL immigrants.

4. In my personal case, my reasonably good health and current employee health care plan for which I pay a portion would be less necessary if I did not have this ongoing stress of watching people like you berate honest, law abiding, tax paying, patriotic people for not being willing to use the money I have saved to pay my expenses PLUS the expenses of millions of ILLEGAL individuals.:mad: :mad: :mad:

5. Let the freakin ILLEGALS pay for their own health care.
6. **** off *******!!!

JLEW1818
7/21/2009, 08:11 PM
damn straight

oudivesherpa
7/21/2009, 08:17 PM
With the projected level of deficit during the next three years, the US will end up just like California, writing IOU's to pay our bills.
Sir: The hamburger, fries, and shake will be $14,500. Ok: I'll give you my Government IOU for $15,000 and you can keep the change.

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 08:19 PM
1. Illegal = against the law, not legal, cheating.

2. Those of us who have had 40 working years to save money for our golden years might have had more had we been ILLEGALLY obtaining that money from the honest hard working taxpayers.

3. The cost of our current medical requirements would be substantially less if the health care industry did not have to raise those costs to cover the losses they sustain in providing unreimbursed care to ILLEGAL immigrants.

4. In my personal case, my reasonably good health and current employee health care plan for which I pay a portion would be less necessary if I did not have this ongoing stress of watching people like you berate honest, law abiding, tax paying, patriotic people for not being willing to use the money I have saved to pay my expenses PLUS the expenses of millions of ILLEGAL individuals.:mad: :mad: :mad:

5. Let the freakin ILLEGALS pay for their own health care.
6. **** off *******!!!

Hey ummmm....

What do you think about a head of lettuce costing $15?:)

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 09:15 PM
Socialism doesn't work because sooner or later they run out of other people's money. WHERE IS SCUBA?

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 09:21 PM
1. Illegal = against the law, not legal, cheating.

2. Those of us who have had 40 working years to save money for our golden years might have had more had we been ILLEGALLY obtaining that money from the honest hard working taxpayers.

3. The cost of our current medical requirements would be substantially less if the health care industry did not have to raise those costs to cover the losses they sustain in providing unreimbursed care to ILLEGAL immigrants.

4. In my personal case, my reasonably good health and current employee health care plan for which I pay a portion would be less necessary if I did not have this ongoing stress of watching people like you berate honest, law abiding, tax paying, patriotic people for not being willing to use the money I have saved to pay my expenses PLUS the expenses of millions of ILLEGAL individuals.:mad: :mad: :mad:

5. Let the freakin ILLEGALS pay for their own health care.
6. **** off *******!!!

What He said :P

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 09:29 PM
What He said ...

...is proof some can't see past their nose.:D

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 09:31 PM
Hey ummmm....

What do you think about a head of lettuce costing $15?:)

Is that really the best you can come back with? There isn't no way in hell folks will pay $15 for a head of lettuce, so it simply isn't going to happen.

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 09:33 PM
...is proof some can't see past their nose.:D

Then enlighten me :pop:

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 09:33 PM
...is proof some can't see past their nose.:D

...is proof that some can't carry on an intelligent conversation. :D

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 09:33 PM
Is that really the best you can come back with? There isn't no way in hell folks will pay $15 for a head of lettuce, so it simply isn't going to happen.

hell I can grow my own smoke to ;)

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 09:35 PM
Absofrigginlutely! It's not rocket science. ;)

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 09:49 PM
Absofrigginlutely! It's not rocket science. ;)

Pay Tention
tool aint a rocket surgeon ;)

SanJoaquinSooner
7/21/2009, 09:52 PM
1. Illegal = against the law, not legal, cheating.

2. Those of us who have had 40 working years to save money for our golden years might have had more had we been ILLEGALLY obtaining that money from the honest hard working taxpayers.

3. The cost of our current medical requirements would be substantially less if the health care industry did not have to raise those costs to cover the losses they sustain in providing unreimbursed care to ILLEGAL immigrants.

4. In my personal case, my reasonably good health and current employee health care plan for which I pay a portion would be less necessary if I did not have this ongoing stress of watching people like you berate honest, law abiding, tax paying, patriotic people for not being willing to use the money I have saved to pay my expenses PLUS the expenses of millions of ILLEGAL individuals.:mad: :mad: :mad:

5. Let the freakin ILLEGALS pay for their own health care.
6. **** off *******!!!



Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I get it - we get the holier-than-thou illegal bashing thread about every 3.5 weeks.

Illegals make up 5.4% of the U.S. workforce and I guarantee you their health care costs are much much less than 5.4% of the $2,400,000,000,000 spent on health care each year.

The RAND corporation estimates health care for illegals cost each U.S. household about $11 per year. It's a pi$$ in the Pacific Ocean.

If you want to raise your blood pressure over something, why not do it over the fact that the President of the United States is a cigarette smoker and the taxpayers cover his health care expenses? Or get mad at the pre-diabetics eating a 5000 calorie lunch at Chilis?

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 09:56 PM
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I get it - we get the holier-than-thou illegal bashing thread about every 3.5 weeks.

Illegals make up 5.4% of the U.S. workforce and I guarantee you their health care costs are much much less than 5.4% of the $2,400,000,000,000 spent on health care each year.

The RAND corporation estimates health care for illegals cost each U.S. household about $11 per year. It's a pi$$ in the Pacific Ocean.

If you want to raise your blood pressure over something, why not do it over the fact that the President of the United States is a cigarette smoker and the taxpayers cover his health care expenses? Or get mad at the pre-diabetics eating a 5000 calorie lunch at Chilis?

AW juan you are a breath of stale air in a Fart filled room :rolleyes:

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 10:04 PM
Is that really the best you can come back with? There isn't no way in hell folks will pay $15 for a head of lettuce, so it simply isn't going to happen.

Yep. Brevity is the soul of wit.

But if you must pry....

These illegals sure as hell are convenient when they're providing us the cheapest food prices of any industrialized nation.

So you want cheap food, but you don't want the folks that provide it to be taken care of.

Your beef is with the food producers that employ them.

If you don't want to pay for illegal alien's health care, then learn to grow your own food or get used to paying for domestic labor union negotiated prices.:)

See.... there is another world of reality out there.:D

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 10:05 PM
SanJoaquinSooner you have no clue.

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 10:05 PM
Then enlighten me :pop:

Olephart......getting enlightened.:D

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 10:12 PM
Olephart......getting enlightened.:D

AggieFool sucks cack :rolleyes:

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 10:12 PM
Yep. Brevity is the soul of wit.

But if you must pry....

These illegals sure as hell are convenient when they're providing us the cheapest food prices of any industrialized nation.

So you want cheap food, but you don't want the folks that provide it to be taken care of.

Your beef is with the food producers that employ them.

If you don't want to pay for illegal alien's health care, then learn to grow your own food or get used to paying for domestic labor union negotiated prices.:)

See.... there is another world of reality out there.:D

I do grow Most of MY food .
You ?:pop:

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 10:14 PM
Check out who is incarcerated in the jails, juvenile halls and prisons of Socal. And DON'T tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Been there. Done that. Respond to that. Search for a study to refute what I am saying. Drive through Socal. I'll lead the tour. I have worked with nearly every gang in Socal. You tell me that illegal immigration isn't something to be concerned about. I will show you where I grew up. Graduation rates at 25%. I'll show you the gang graffiti sprayed everywhere and what "hood" it represents. But you be secure in whatever study or survey gives you a wet dream. Meanwhile I will continue to deal with the reality that is the IE. You have no clue.

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 10:16 PM
Check out who is incarcerated in the jails, juvenile halls and prisons of Socal. And DON'T tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Been there. Done that. Respond to that. Search for a study to refute what I am saying. Drive through Socal. I'll lead the tour. I have worked with nearly every gang in Socal. You tell me that illegal immigration isn't something to be concerned about. I will show you where I grew up. Graduation rates at 25%. I'll show you the gang graffiti sprayed everywhere and what "hood" it represents. But you be secure in whatever study or survey gives you a wet dream. Meanwhile I will continue to deal with the reality that is the IE. You have no clue.

Who you talking to ?

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 10:16 PM
Yep. Brevity is the soul of wit.

But if you must pry....

These illegals sure as hell are convenient when they're providing us the cheapest food prices of any industrialized nation.

So you want cheap food, but you don't want the folks that provide it to be taken care of.

What part of illegal is it that you do not understand?


Your beef is with the food producers that employ them.

On this we can agree. They too are breaking the law and should be punished.


If you don't want to pay for illegal alien's health care, then learn to grow your own food or get used to paying for domestic labor union negotiated prices.:)

Like I said, it isn't rocket science. My great grandparents did it, my grandparents did it, and my parents did it. If it becomes a necessity, I'll guaran-damn-tee you I could do it. Besides that, I'm a meat and taters kinda guy and can get by real simple. ;)


See.... there is another world of reality out there.:D

Thus the different colored sky in your world....

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 10:19 PM
Who you talking to ?

I think he's talkin' to that tool....

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 10:26 PM
Check out who is incarcerated in the jails, juvenile halls and prisons of Socal. And DON'T tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Been there. Done that. Respond to that. Search for a study to refute what I am saying. Drive through Socal. I'll lead the tour. I have worked with nearly every gang in Socal. You tell me that illegal immigration isn't something to be concerned about. I will show you where I grew up. Graduation rates at 25%. I'll show you the gang graffiti sprayed everywhere and what "hood" it represents. But you be secure in whatever study or survey gives you a wet dream. Meanwhile I will continue to deal with the reality that is the IE. You have no clue.

Golly...

We better quit employing them then.;)

AggieTool
7/21/2009, 10:27 PM
I do grow Most of MY food .
You ?:pop:

Nope...

But then again, my house doesn't have wheels on it either.:D

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 10:27 PM
Golly...

We better quit employing them then.;)

Now you're getting the idea! Maybe there is hope for you....nahhh, scratch that.

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 10:37 PM
Golly...

We better quit employing them then.;)
I dont

Nope...

But then again, my house doesn't have wheels on it either.:D

My shack is in the middle of 42 Acres
Yers ?
:pop:

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 10:55 PM
I apologize for my enthusiasm.

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 10:57 PM
Nothing wrong with telling it like it is.

SanJoaquinSooner
7/21/2009, 11:01 PM
SanJoaquinSooner you have no clue.

Here's another clue for you all,

it's the old folks' medicare that needs an overhaul.

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 11:07 PM
That topic changed all of a sudden.

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 11:07 PM
I apologize for my enthusiasm.

Got ya an Invite LOL

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 11:08 PM
No way! He's mine! :D

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 11:09 PM
That topic changed all of a sudden.

They're real sneaky like that. You've got to keep an eye on them or they'll pull that stunt every time. ;)

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 11:12 PM
No way! He's mine! :D

Gonna be some drankin
gonna be some fightin
gonna be some ****in
Get in line Ho :D

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 11:13 PM
I'm at the head of the line, big man! :D

JLEW1818
7/21/2009, 11:13 PM
I'm drunk on that 7n7 , my gut be getting fat on beer

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 11:14 PM
I'm at the head of the line, big man! :D

Fer the ****in ?

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 11:16 PM
I have had one tooooo many daquiris.My daughter keeps telling me to get off her computer. I say I paid for it. I will continue. I am having tooooooo much fun. Where is SCUBA?

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 11:16 PM
Fer the ****in ?

No, for the drankin! Pay tention!!

KC//CRIMSON
7/21/2009, 11:18 PM
I have had one tooooo many daquiris.

This explains so much.

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 11:19 PM
I bought a bottle of rum and it is now half full. I am an optimist.

JLEW1818
7/21/2009, 11:20 PM
lol

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 11:27 PM
This explains so much.

Least he aint a LIB :P

SanJoaquinSooner
7/21/2009, 11:32 PM
This explains so much.


and the taxpayers will pay for the posse's pickled livers and diabetic meds.

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 11:34 PM
I have had one tooooo many daquiris.My daughter keeps telling me to get off her computer. I say I paid for it. I will continue. I am having tooooooo much fun. Where is SCUBA?

Wait a Minute ?
You in SoCal ?
Or Nwalens ?

olevetonahill
7/21/2009, 11:35 PM
and the taxpayers will pay the posse's pickled livers and diabetic meds.

No Azzhole , I paid fer Mine by gettin shot to shat .
YOU ?

JLEW1818
7/21/2009, 11:36 PM
and the taxpayers will pay the posse's pickled livers and diabetic meds.

oh yah?

CrimsonJim
7/21/2009, 11:37 PM
and the taxpayers will pay the posse's pickled livers and diabetic meds.

Ouch! That was harsh. :D

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 11:39 PM
My daughter will be a law student at Loyola University this Fall. My wife and I are getting her situated. On a teacher's salary this is getting a little much. The drive from Socal was .... Bacardi is helping ease the pain.

The Remnant
7/21/2009, 11:52 PM
Hey KC//Crimson? What is you excuse?

The Remnant
7/22/2009, 12:32 AM
ScottD, why do you get off insulting people?

JLEW1818
7/22/2009, 12:36 AM
ScottD is a joker... he's good peoples, just messing around

The Remnant
7/22/2009, 12:45 AM
I understand.

CrimsonJim
7/22/2009, 12:53 AM
Is that bottle still half full? ;)

The Remnant
7/22/2009, 12:54 AM
I think so.

Scott D
7/22/2009, 03:15 AM
ScottD, why do you get off insulting people?

Where exactly in this thread did I insult anyone?

Turd_Ferguson
7/22/2009, 03:49 AM
Where exactly in this thread did I insult anyone?Just now, when you posted.:D

AlbqSooner
7/22/2009, 06:39 AM
Juan and Aggie tool, I think it is a shame that your opinions regarding health care for illegal aliens and such has become so politically correct.

Let the old pharts pay for their own medicine? That is what those of us who have worked hard for forty years are doing. Please explain again why we should ALSO pay for the medicine of people who have only recently come to this country and have not worked for 40 years. I have paid for my own health care through the legal means of providing myself with insurance or reaching in my pocket for each of those 40 plus years I have worked.

My position is let the illegal aliens and others pay for THEIR own medicine.

The lesson your position teaches to our young people and the offspring of illegal aliens is that, "working hard for 40 years is just for suckers. Let the suckers pay my way." I personally do not believe that is the lesson you want to teach. That lesson is far too prevalent already and we really do not need another generation taking it to the next level.

See beyond my own nose? Yes, I can see beyond my own nose. It pains me when what I see is people who are so short-sighted that they cannot support those who DO pay their own way and who believe that those who do not choose to do so should be paid for BEFORE those who do.

BornandBred
7/22/2009, 08:11 AM
Juan and Aggie tool, I think it is a shame that your opinions regarding health care for illegal aliens and such has become so politically correct.

Let the old pharts pay for their own medicine? That is what those of us who have worked hard for forty years are doing. Please explain again why we should ALSO pay for the medicine of people who have only recently come to this country and have not worked for 40 years. I have paid for my own health care through the legal means of providing myself with insurance or reaching in my pocket for each of those 40 plus years I have worked.

My position is let the illegal aliens and others pay for THEIR own medicine.

The lesson your position teaches to our young people and the offspring of illegal aliens is that, "working hard for 40 years is just for suckers. Let the suckers pay my way." I personally do not believe that is the lesson you want to teach. That lesson is far too prevalent already and we really do not need another generation taking it to the next level.

See beyond my own nose? Yes, I can see beyond my own nose. It pains me when what I see is people who are so short-sighted that they cannot support those who DO pay their own way and who believe that those who do not choose to do so should be paid for BEFORE those who do.

As in Atlas, being productive and becoming rich is a bad thing and you should be ashamed. You should feel morally obligated to support those less fortunate than you because it's the "socially right" thing to do. The "needs" of the many out weigh the "rights" of the few. The system being installed will benefit only those who abuse it or are exempt, not those who are governed by it and play by the rules.

FACT: The fleecing of the productive and successful for the 'greater good' only leads to fewer productive and successful people.

AggieTool
7/22/2009, 08:52 AM
Juan and Aggie tool, I think it is a shame that your opinions regarding health care for illegal aliens and such has become so politically correct.

It has nothing to do with being PC, and everything to do with enjoying the fruits of their labor and not wanting to pay for it.


Let the old pharts pay for their own medicine? That is what those of us who have worked hard for forty years are doing. Please explain again why we should ALSO pay for the medicine of people who have only recently come to this country and have not worked for 40 years. I have paid for my own health care through the legal means of providing myself with insurance or reaching in my pocket for each of those 40 plus years I have worked.

My position is let the illegal aliens and others pay for THEIR own medicine.

It's highly unlikely that you pay 100% for your own health care. In fact, I'd wager that your health care is partially subsidized by others in your plan, or the government, or both.

That is unless you claim to write a check for the entire billed amount each visit to the doc.


The lesson your position teaches to our young people and the offspring of illegal aliens is that, "working hard for 40 years is just for suckers. Let the suckers pay my way." I personally do not believe that is the lesson you want to teach. That lesson is far too prevalent already and we really do not need another generation taking it to the next level.

See beyond my own nose? Yes, I can see beyond my own nose. It pains me when what I see is people who are so short-sighted that they cannot support those who DO pay their own way and who believe that those who do not choose to do so should be paid for BEFORE those who do.

No, the lesson here is while you worked for 40 years, you're able to afford many things because food is cheap.

Everyone bitches about illegals, but aren't willing to do what it takes to remove the attraction for them.

Don't wanna pay for illegal's health care? Then get rid of the illegals.

Just be ready to pay $15 for a head of lettuce, and $250k for a $100k house.

So easy as Sooner can do it...;)

SanJoaquinSooner
7/22/2009, 10:42 AM
You tell me that illegal immigration isn't something to be concerned about..


I don't know if you are referring to me or aggietool, but... my point is, with respect to a national health care program - the health care costs of illegals is a drop in the bucket compared to the ticketing time bomb of the forthcoming baby boomer retirement.

Question for you: who pays the health care costs of the maids who clean the hotel rooms at lake arrowhead?

BornandBred
7/22/2009, 10:58 AM
I don't want to have to pay the health care costs of ANYONE. What the hell difference does it make if the people stealing from me are mexican, american, portuguese or french? Socialized medicine is a gawd aweful idea, PERIOD.

yermom
7/22/2009, 11:23 AM
well, there is a balance

we are already paying for the healthcare for a lot of those people anyway since the end up in the emergency room

OklahomaTuba
7/22/2009, 11:33 AM
well, there is a balance

we are already paying for the healthcare for a lot of those people anyway since the end up in the emergency room

Who is this "we" you are talking about?

Do you mean the ChiComs buying our debt, or do you mean our great grand children??

Cause it isn't us. Even if we taxed everybody at 100%, it falls well short of funding Obamatopia, not to mention all the BS we had before him.

yermom
7/22/2009, 11:47 AM
yes?

MojoRisen
7/22/2009, 11:49 AM
If they use the emergency room, it should be an emergency is all- not a head ache for a 10$ tylenol.

BornandBred
7/22/2009, 12:08 PM
Trouble there is that I don't want my government telling me what my emergencies are/aren't. I've had a migrain or two that I'd consider emergencies.

MojoRisen
7/22/2009, 12:13 PM
Yeah but are you an illegal alien? Quick shot of morphine for anyone complaining about a migrane :)

AlbqSooner
7/22/2009, 08:53 PM
It has nothing to do with being PC, and everything to do with enjoying the fruits of their labor and not wanting to pay for it.



It's highly unlikely that you pay 100% for your own health care. In fact, I'd wager that your health care is partially subsidized by others in your plan, or the government, or both.

That is unless you claim to write a check for the entire billed amount each visit to the doc.



No, the lesson here is while you worked for 40 years, you're able to afford many things because food is cheap.

Everyone bitches about illegals, but aren't willing to do what it takes to remove the attraction for them.

Don't wanna pay for illegal's health care? Then get rid of the illegals.

Just be ready to pay $15 for a head of lettuce, and $250k for a $100k house.

So easy as Sooner can do it...;)

First, it does have to do with being PC. For some strange reason, you and a goodly number of others, feel that people who break the laws of this country should be rewarded for doing so. That has become the politically correct response to those poor, poor illegals who deserve to share in the fruits of my labor. I buy groceries almost exclusively at grocery stores. Follow the money and you will see that the paychecks, or cash payments that illegal farm workers receive come from my purchasing groceries. If they are unwilling to work for the wages they receive, I had absolutely NOTHING to do with the negotiation of those wages.

Second, if you read my previous post (post #22 in this thread) you will see that I acknowledge that my employer pays a portion of the premium. Others in my plan do not subsidize my insurance. I could argue that the portion of my premium which is paid by my employer is actually a bargained for portion of my compensation, hence, I DO pay 100% of my insurance costs. Your comments are a mere red herring. You still have not advanced an argument that I should have to pay a portion of the health care expenses of someone who does not have insurance and does not even have the right to exist in this Nation.

Third, food is cheap? Cheap is a relative term. Again, I do not work in any field having to do with the production, transportation or marketing of food products. I do not have any input on the pricing of food. I have, for my entire working life budgeted for and paid the "market price" for food. The law defines "market price" as that amount that a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will accept when neither are under any duress in determining that price.

Fourth, you say I am unwilling to remove the attraction for them. Are you suggesting that I should take a portion of my hard earned money and use it to prop up the economies of Mexico, Haiti, etc, etc, etc?

Fifth I don't want to pay for illegals health care. I would LOVE to be able to do that, but currently the "leaders" of this country don't have the intestinal fortitude to do something so politically incorrect and they won't allow me to take matters into my own sights - errr hands I mean.

I am somewhat sure I am casting pearls before swine, but maybe swine wearing a pearl necklace will make an aggie that much prouder to be intimately involved with them.

SanJoaquinSooner
7/22/2009, 09:18 PM
First, it does have to do with being PC.

it's aggietool and me who get all the negs, so if anyone is politically incorrect around here, it's us.

Personally I don't use the phrase "politically correct" as it seems reserved for those seeking victim status. ... so many poor victims of illegals around here.



For some strange reason, you and a goodly number of others, feel that people who break the laws of this country should be rewarded

I don't. I seek changing the laws so they aren't breaking it if they are exchanging labor for money. Kinda like changing zoning laws to facilitate commerce.



I buy groceries almost exclusively at grocery stores. Follow the money and you will see that the paychecks, or cash payments that illegal farm workers receive come from my purchasing groceries. If they are unwilling to work for the wages they receive, I had absolutely NOTHING to do with the negotiation of those wages.

Let's see, fresno county has 5 billion dollars in agriculture output, kern county 4 billion, and san joaquin co (where I live) 2 billion. Now somebody in the world's most productive agricultural valley apparently is willing to work for the wages they are receiving. I'm guessing it ain't your daughter.

MojoRisen
7/22/2009, 09:33 PM
I liked Stacy Keech's approach in Cheech and Chong with the electric fence around the borders that will fry unsuspecting Illegals trying to cross over into the country. Although they may retailiate with weed that turns us into Iguana's...

The underground economy will never be controlled by the government.

The cost of illegals in our country is roughly what annually? 300 Billion?

Fortitude would be to provide amnesty and make sure they are paying their own way or - do not serve them period. Either way that would likely make it less attractive to come here for $ money and free benefits.

AlbqSooner
7/22/2009, 09:35 PM
I have never neg speked you. I don't recall neg speking any poster except one in the entire time I have posted here.

Your reference to my daughter is WAAAAAAY over the line. Personal attacks such as that will not be tolerated by me. Think I am just puffing? Try me!!!

stoopified
7/22/2009, 09:37 PM
1. Illegal = against the law, not legal, cheating.

2. Those of us who have had 40 working years to save money for our golden years might have had more had we been ILLEGALLY obtaining that money from the honest hard working taxpayers.

3. The cost of our current medical requirements would be substantially less if the health care industry did not have to raise those costs to cover the losses they sustain in providing unreimbursed care to ILLEGAL immigrants.

4. In my personal case, my reasonably good health and current employee health care plan for which I pay a portion would be less necessary if I did not have this ongoing stress of watching people like you berate honest, law abiding, tax paying, patriotic people for not being willing to use the money I have saved to pay my expenses PLUS the expenses of millions of ILLEGAL individuals.:mad: :mad: :mad:

5. Let the freakin ILLEGALS pay for their own health care.
6. **** off *******!!!Sing it brother

Crucifax Autumn
7/22/2009, 09:51 PM
All I know is that when my white, legal citizen, worked for the last 20+years solid *** needed help from social services I couldn't get a foot in the door forever, while everyone actually checking in about benefits they were already receiving were teen crackheads lugging 3 kids while pregnant with another or people who were fairly obviously illegal and couldn't speak a word of English and had to have interpreters called over. I'm fairly certain those interpreters are costing some taxpayer money too. And none of these people were inquiring about job training, job placement, or anything of the sort...all they wanted was to hand in their latest paperwork so they could keep getting benefits while all I wanted was a temporary helping hand and some help with job placement and so on...continued job training if that was what I needed to do. Meanwhile these perpetual leeches in brand new cars with shiny rims just keep on sucking the taxpayer/government teat and when their benefits run out another family member applies to get around welfare reform.

PLEASE don't let this be the way healthcare reform works!

JLEW1818
7/22/2009, 09:55 PM
if your a white straight male.... your not getting ****

MojoRisen
7/22/2009, 10:01 PM
If you are a white straight single male you are taking it in the perverbial arse! so bad that if you bend over you can see blue sky!

JLEW1818
7/22/2009, 10:02 PM
exactly

maybe i should go have 10 babies... so i can get some welfare money

Crucifax Autumn
7/22/2009, 10:09 PM
Hell, I have 2 kids and they look at me like there's something wrong with me since I'm not wearing a t-shirt from a landscaping crew or sporting 3 gold teef and pregnant.

Petro-Sooner
7/22/2009, 10:14 PM
Build a freaking wall. Period!!

olevetonahill
7/22/2009, 10:15 PM
exactly

maybe i should go have 10 babies... so i can get some welfare money

YOU have 10 babies you gonna be more famous than that Octomom bitch :D

AggieTool
7/22/2009, 10:19 PM
First, it does have to do with being PC. For some strange reason, you and a goodly number of others, feel that people who break the laws of this country should be rewarded for doing so. That has become the politically correct response to those poor, poor illegals who deserve to share in the fruits of my labor. I buy groceries almost exclusively at grocery stores. Follow the money and you will see that the paychecks, or cash payments that illegal farm workers receive come from my purchasing groceries. If they are unwilling to work for the wages they receive, I had absolutely NOTHING to do with the negotiation of those wages.

Swing and a miss....

You view health care as something that is "deserved" or not by illegals but yet you're willing to accept the "market value" of their labor something you're entitled to.

Also, you place their legal status above their human needs, I do not.

I also don't put the needs of LEGAL unemployed or desperate below others either.

Health care is like the police and lawyers. If you don't need them, it means nothing to you. But when you do need them, it's a crisis.

Second, if you read my previous post (post #22 in this thread) you will see that I acknowledge that my employer pays a portion of the premium. Others in my plan do not subsidize my insurance. I could argue that the portion of my premium which is paid by my employer is actually a bargained for portion of my compensation, hence, I DO pay 100% of my insurance costs. Your comments are a mere red herring. You still have not advanced an argument that I should have to pay a portion of the health care expenses of someone who does not have insurance and does not even have the right to exist in this Nation.

Not a math guy huh?

Check this out...

The more your employer has to subsidize your health insurance, the less money there is to go towards wages and other benefits for all employees. Thus, your fellow employees ARE subsidizing your insurance.

Also, your employer likely passes on the cost of you insurance to the consumer at some level.

And um....

"Right to exist in this nation?"

You mean like the indigenous people that were here before us?:D


Third, food is cheap? Cheap is a relative term. Again, I do not work in any field having to do with the production, transportation or marketing of food products. I do not have any input on the pricing of food. I have, for my entire working life budgeted for and paid the "market price" for food. The law defines "market price" as that amount that a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will accept when neither are under any duress in determining that price.

We have the cheapest food of any industrialized nation because our farm labor costs are the lowest.

Do I need to draw you a picture?





Fourth, you say I am unwilling to remove the attraction for them. Are you suggesting that I should take a portion of my hard earned money and use it to prop up the economies of Mexico, Haiti, etc, etc, etc?

If you're willing to refrain from purchasing ANYTHING that has been produced by illegal labor, then I stand corrected.;)




Fifth I don't want to pay for illegals health care. I would LOVE to be able to do that, but currently the "leaders" of this country don't have the intestinal fortitude to do something so politically incorrect and they won't allow me to take matters into my own sights - errr hands I mean.

I am somewhat sure I am casting pearls before swine, but maybe swine wearing a pearl necklace will make an aggie that much prouder to be intimately involved with them.

Well said. Do you vote?:)

Curly Bill
7/22/2009, 10:20 PM
...but, but, but....$15 for a head of lettuce! :rolleyes:

AggieTool
7/22/2009, 10:34 PM
...but, but, but....$15 for head :eek:

Perv....:D

CrimsonJim
7/22/2009, 10:44 PM
...but, but, but....$15 for a head of lettuce! :rolleyes:

We 'squashed' that last night, but you know ole Tool. He woke up in a new world this morning. The sky was a different color and everything was great! :rolleyes:

SanJoaquinSooner
7/22/2009, 10:44 PM
Your reference to my daughter is WAAAAAAY over the line. Personal attacks such as that will not be tolerated by me. Think I am just puffing? Try me!!!

lol I didn't actually know that you had a daughter... but I doubt anybody's daughter on this board is harvesting cucumbers in the san joaquin valley this week. my daughter isn't. don't know why that conjecture would be over the line.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/2062/PreviewComp/SuperStock_2062-553510.jpg

SanJoaquinSooner
7/22/2009, 10:50 PM
All I know is that when my white, legal citizen, worked for the last 20+years solid *** needed help from social services I couldn't get a foot in the door forever, while everyone actually checking in about benefits they were already receiving were teen crackheads lugging 3 kids while pregnant with another or people who were fairly obviously illegal and couldn't speak a word of English and had to have interpreters called over. I'm fairly certain those interpreters are costing some taxpayer money too. And none of these people were inquiring about job training, job placement, or anything of the sort...all they wanted was to hand in their latest paperwork so they could keep getting benefits while all I wanted was a temporary helping hand and some help with job placement and so on...continued job training if that was what I needed to do. Meanwhile these perpetual leeches in brand new cars with shiny rims just keep on sucking the taxpayer/government teat and when their benefits run out another family member applies to get around welfare reform.

PLEASE don't let this be the way healthcare reform works!

look at the big picture.... those of you living in Las Vegas - legal or illegal - are all going to burn in hell anyway.


;)

MojoRisen
7/22/2009, 11:14 PM
lol I didn't actually know that you had a daughter... but I doubt anybody's daughter on this board is harvesting cucumbers in the san joaquin valley this week. my daughter isn't. don't know why that conjecture would be over the line.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/2062/PreviewComp/SuperStock_2062-553510.jpg

Man I am going there looking for non money grubing chicks that will sign a pre nump and like it!

SoonerKnight
7/22/2009, 11:46 PM
If the economy is like this in 3 years.... i really think the Democrats could nominate somebody else... when is the last time that happened? Cleveland?

Election of 1888. Cleveland was easily renominated at the Democratic convention in St. Louis. Cleveland lost reelection. The Economy was good.


Election of 1892. The result was a victory for Cleveland by wide margins in both the popular and electoral votes. Cleveland won a non-consecutive term the only President to do so. The economy was bad.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland

def_lazer_fc
7/23/2009, 02:06 AM
lol I didn't actually know that you had a daughter... but I doubt anybody's daughter on this board is harvesting cucumbers in the san joaquin valley this week. my daughter isn't. don't know why that conjecture would be over the line.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/2062/PreviewComp/SuperStock_2062-553510.jpg

he just wants everybody to know how tough he is:rolleyes:

AlbqSooner
7/23/2009, 06:27 AM
"Obama Health Plan to... 7/23/2009 01:01 AM def_lazer_fc calm down aggro"
Guess I shouldn't have mentioned that I have seldom if ever negged anyone.:D
Oh and for he record, If you had read my other posts in this thread you would know that I am not involved in any way with the agricultural industry.

AlbqSooner
7/23/2009, 06:27 AM
he just wants everybody to know how tough he is:rolleyes:

Read my sig.

MrJimBeam
7/23/2009, 06:53 AM
if your a white straight male.... your not getting ****

An invoice every April 15th.

AlbqSooner
7/23/2009, 06:58 AM
"Not a math guy huh?

Check this out...

The more your employer has to subsidize your health insurance, the less money there is to go towards wages and other benefits for all employees. Thus, your fellow employees ARE subsidizing your insurance.

Also, your employer likely passes on the cost of you insurance to the consumer at some level.

And um....

"Right to exist in this nation?"

You mean like the indigenous people that were here before us?"

Actually I am not particularly adept at math. However, your argument is circuitous. If I take compensation for my labor I am taking money from my co-workers? I suppose that the only way to combat that would be to pay everyone the same amount of wages and benefits. All Hail Groucho and John!

Indigenous people who were here before us are dual-citizens. Both LEGAL citizens of their own Native Nation and LEGAL citizens of the United States. This is just another red herring.

Not that it matters, but my employer is a Nation of Indigenous citizens.

AggieTool
7/23/2009, 07:48 AM
"Not a math guy huh?

Check this out...

The more your employer has to subsidize your health insurance, the less money there is to go towards wages and other benefits for all employees. Thus, your fellow employees ARE subsidizing your insurance.

Also, your employer likely passes on the cost of you insurance to the consumer at some level.

And um....

"Right to exist in this nation?"

You mean like the indigenous people that were here before us?"

Actually I am not particularly adept at math. However, your argument is circuitous. If I take compensation for my labor I am taking money from my co-workers? I suppose that the only way to combat that would be to pay everyone the same amount of wages and benefits. All Hail Groucho and John!

Indigenous people who were here before us are dual-citizens. Both LEGAL citizens of their own Native Nation and LEGAL citizens of the United States. This is just another red herring.

Not that it matters, but my employer is a Nation of Indigenous citizens.

Mmmmkayyyyy....:)

AlbqSooner
7/23/2009, 07:52 AM
Well said. Do you vote?:)

Indeed I do vote. Not sure of your age, but there is a good chance that I was voting when you were still pooping green.:P

AggieTool
7/23/2009, 08:09 AM
Indeed I do vote. Not sure of your age, but there is a good chance that I was voting when you were still pooping green.:P

Well even if we disagree, at least you uphold your responsibility on that.:)

There are a lot of loudmouth ignorant goobers that never seem to make their way to the polls.

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 09:47 AM
If the Obama health care plan is to cover 12 million illegals along with everyone else, how is that supposed to work in the long run? It seems to me the logic is to put all these people into a cart and let the rich pull them through. Well, I've got some terrible news, the rich in this country won't do it forever.

Why don't we utilize the workforce of the illegal, give them an immediate path to becomming legal through an easily obtainable work visa or something along those lines. Then we can tax them and allow them to support themselves in this plan.

Scott D
7/23/2009, 11:06 AM
If the Obama health care plan is to cover 12 million illegals along with everyone else, how is that supposed to work in the long run? It seems to me the logic is to put all these people into a cart and let the rich pull them through. Well, I've got some terrible news, the rich in this country won't do it forever.

Why don't we utilize the workforce of the illegal, give them an immediate path to becomming legal through an easily obtainable work visa or something along those lines. Then we can tax them and allow them to support themselves in this plan.

why do you hate the purity of absolute capitalism in a true free trade market?

OU_Sooners75
7/23/2009, 11:15 AM
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I get it - we get the holier-than-thou illegal bashing thread about every 3.5 weeks.

Illegals make up 5.4% of the U.S. workforce and I guarantee you their health care costs are much much less than 5.4% of the $2,400,000,000,000 spent on health care each year.

The RAND corporation estimates health care for illegals cost each U.S. household about $11 per year. It's a pi$$ in the Pacific Ocean.

If you want to raise your blood pressure over something, why not do it over the fact that the President of the United States is a cigarette smoker and the taxpayers cover his health care expenses? Or get mad at the pre-diabetics eating a 5000 calorie lunch at Chilis?

This is not bashing anyone....but why should a portion of the money I work my *** off for every day go to someone that cannot abide by the rules?

I couldn't careless if they are from mexico, england, thailand, russia, china, france, jordan, or anywhere else but the United States.

If they are not here with proper permission by LAW, then they do not deserve free health care, energy, food, or anything else....simple as that.

Only a illiterate lil phuck like yourself would try to make this into an illegal bashing thread.

AggieTool
7/23/2009, 11:17 AM
Why don't we utilize the workforce of the illegal, give them an immediate path to becomming legal through an easily obtainable work visa or something along those lines. Then we can tax them and allow them to support themselves in this plan.

Because then they would have to be paid wages in line with current law.

I'm fine with it, but I don't believe Curly Bill wants to pay $15 for head.:D

(of lettuce that is....)

OU_Sooners75
7/23/2009, 11:18 AM
Yep. Brevity is the soul of wit.

But if you must pry....

These illegals sure as hell are convenient when they're providing us the cheapest food prices of any industrialized nation.

So you want cheap food, but you don't want the folks that provide it to be taken care of.

Your beef is with the food producers that employ them.

If you don't want to pay for illegal alien's health care, then learn to grow your own food or get used to paying for domestic labor union negotiated prices.:)

See.... there is another world of reality out there.:D

No, my beef is with those people that decided to trek across the border without the proper authorization and paperwork.

OU_Sooners75
7/23/2009, 11:19 AM
Because then they would have to be paid wages in line with current law.

I'm fine with it, but I don't believe Curly Bill wants to pay $15 for head.:D

(of lettuce that is....)


Not overly bright on the farming world are you?

OU_Sooners75
7/23/2009, 11:23 AM
Here's another clue for you all,

it's the old folks' medicare that needs an overhaul.


The problem is we need to allow natural selection to take effect....but if we did that, you would not exist...so it is a good thing some of us are a little more advanced than the others.:pop:

CrimsonJim
7/23/2009, 11:32 AM
Because then they would have to be paid wages in line with current law.

I'm fine with it, but I don't believe Curly Bill wants to pay $15 for head.:D

(of lettuce that is....)

Please try to come up with something new. Your feeble attempts to convince us of such have been debunked several times in this thread alone.

Curly Bill
7/23/2009, 12:23 PM
Not overly bright on the farming world are you?

Have you seen more of his posts? AggieTool is working on about a 5th grade level.

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 01:45 PM
why do you hate the purity of absolute capitalism in a true free trade market?

I miss the sarcasm? I thought I was pumping capitalism? Hire the best, period. I'm confused...

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 01:46 PM
Because then they would have to be paid wages in line with current law.

I'm fine with it, but I don't believe Curly Bill wants to pay $15 for head.:D

(of lettuce that is....)

That assumes they're going to be working for minimum wage at it's current level.

Scott D
7/23/2009, 01:56 PM
I miss the sarcasm? I thought I was pumping capitalism? Hire the best, period. I'm confused...

well you know, if you make them equal and stuff then they have to be paid more. so that hurts profitability, and since profitability and answering to overblown corporate shareholders is the cat's meow these days, you're killing the free market. :)

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 02:09 PM
I suppose they are the best in this situation because they are the cheapest, and paying them equally does remove that appeal. But, if it weren't for the nanny state trying make everyone share and play nice, a truly capitalist market would set itself right. The market would determine what people were willing to pay for a product, which would determine what people could charge for that product, which would set the rate which people could pay to have that product made. If nobody buys your stuff, you can't make it, nor can you employ them to, so they begin to work for cheaper, so that you CAN make it, and people CAN afford it. All a pumped up minimum wage does is inflate the cost of everything else. But that's another topic.

The point I was trying to make, is that if you don't make people pay for what they're given, they never will. Making a select few carry the burden of the majority doesn't work in the long term. More and more people will see the unfairness built into the system and decide it's easier to ride than to pull. That is a system destined to collapse.

Scott D
7/23/2009, 02:18 PM
True socialism is doomed to fail, true capitalism is just as doomed to fail. Opposite sides of the same failure coin if you ask me. But either side is too shiny to those who believe in them as infallible.

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 02:23 PM
True socialism is doomed to fail, true capitalism is just as doomed to fail. Opposite sides of the same failure coin if you ask me. But either side is too shiny to those who believe in them as infallible.

Just a weird thought: evolution is truly capitalist, with natural selection and all. Nature seems to be doing OK. Even if man does all the damage he can, we'll whipe ourselves out and the most fit to continue will.

Scott D
7/23/2009, 02:27 PM
true and pure capitalism isn't evolutionary, it's cannibalism at it's purest.

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 02:29 PM
no, I'd disagree. Mindless capitalism may be cannibalism, but a true capitalist would know, "You can shear a sheep many times, but you can skin him only once".

yermom
7/23/2009, 02:46 PM
i wouldn't assume a lot of forethought in anyone's plans as of late

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 02:48 PM
i wouldn't assume a lot of forethought in anyone's plans as of late

BINGO!!!

Scott D
7/23/2009, 02:51 PM
i wouldn't assume a lot of forethought in anyone's plans as of late

I disagree, my dinner plans have been thoroughly thought out.

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 02:58 PM
Why is it that's the way it is now-a-days? I remember a time when I thought the people we elected were smart. Now, they are either too stupid to hold a job as a car wash attendant or they have to be corrupt. I mean, Bush was no shining light of intellegence and Obama has a TON of baggage. And it's my opinion that Socialized Medicine is the quickest way possible to making Chinese the national language. Even if you like Obama, how can ANYONE like Pilosi or Reid? Those two are extremely corrupt.

Scott D
7/23/2009, 03:22 PM
you can't convince me any elected official isn't corrupted in even the most minute way.

BornandBred
7/23/2009, 03:25 PM
you can't convince me any elected official isn't corrupted in even the most minute way.

A shame, no? They are in the business of public service. Too bad that's turned into the business of self service.

Scott D
7/23/2009, 03:29 PM
if not self service, then self promotion. The shame is that people buy it hook line and sinker.

OU_Sooners75
7/23/2009, 11:59 PM
Have you seen more of his posts? AggieTool is working on about a 5th grade level.


Well that is okay...apparently if you are a long time member here you cannot make an appropriate comment without the hammer being laid upon you. :D

Crucifax Autumn
7/24/2009, 12:35 AM
if not self service, then self promotion. The shame is that people buy it hook line and sinker.

And if not that, then plain old greed, lust, and ****ing.

SanJoaquinSooner
7/24/2009, 01:07 AM
Only a illiterate lil phuck like yourself would try to make this into an illegal bashing thread.

...apparently if you are a long time member here you cannot make an appropriate comment without the hammer being laid upon you.

:confused: :rolleyes:

Crucifax Autumn
7/24/2009, 01:35 AM
If saying that only legal, tax-paying citizens should receive any benefits of this plan is immigrant bashing, sign me up as an intolerant mother****er.

Hell, if I sneak into Canada or England I don't get free treatment or coverage either.

SanJoaquinSooner
7/24/2009, 01:46 AM
I don't want to have to pay the health care costs of ANYONE. What the hell difference does it make if the people stealing from me are mexican, american, portuguese or french? Socialized medicine is a gawd aweful idea, PERIOD.

Tough sh!t. 76 million babyboomers are marching toward retirement and guess who gets to pay for their healthcare.


this is on top of all the gov't employees' health care the taypayer covers. did remnant say he's a teacher? well i hope he's not a public school teacher whose health care is paid by my taxes.

I'm disappointed remnant never answered my question: who pays for the health care of the maids who clean the hotel rooms on Lake Arrowhead?

Crucifax Autumn
7/24/2009, 01:59 AM
Who gives a shat? Are they hard-working single moms who have been paying taxes or some bottom feeders working for piece of **** employers hiring illegally to save a few bucks at the cost of making an otherwise self-sufficient and law abiding family homeless while simultaneously making the illegal into a virtual slave and ripping them off every chance they get?

Seems to me that those people should stay home and work to better their own countries while we get our shat in order and let the economic consequences come, deal with them, and move on as a better society overall while still allowing legal immigration for people who qualify and follow the rules.

JLEW1818
7/24/2009, 02:02 AM
yall lucky i didn't drink tonight

Crucifax Autumn
7/24/2009, 02:06 AM
I wish you woulda...I'm waiting to see you get all pizzed off when you get nailed for violating the drunk-posting rule!

Crucifax Autumn
7/24/2009, 02:07 AM
Hell, for that matter when do we all get nailed for violating the motherfuggin rule on bypassing coksuking piece of shat profanity filter gundammit!

SanJoaquinSooner
7/24/2009, 02:43 AM
Who gives a shat? Are they hard-working single moms who have been paying taxes or some bottom feeders working for piece of **** employers hiring illegally to save a few bucks at the cost of making an otherwise self-sufficient and law abiding family homeless while simultaneously making the illegal into a virtual slave and ripping them off every chance they get?
.

this seems to reinforce a belief that there is some bifurcation of employment - those who hire legals and those who hire illegals. It doesn't play out that way in most situations - certainly not in agriculture, hotel & restaurant, construction(prior to the recession), food prep, and maintenance. Most of those who hire relatively permanent employees require a social security number and an ID to meet I-9 employment verification requirements. So suppose a hotel has 12 maids under employment. Maybe 7 are legal residents or U.S. citizens and 4 are illegals who use a cousin's or friend's social security number. and then one is using a fake card bought off the street. In a few months the SSA will write a letter to the employer saying the name doesn't match the number, and that one employee will have to quit or something. the other 4 illegals conceivably can continue working indefinitely - they have numbers with the correct matching name - just not their own. Prior to 9/11 they may have actually gotten their own real SS number through an inside connection. Probably harder to do that now.

but in any case, to the employer, the 11 maids are all legal - they've been I-9 verified. they're paid through a payroll checks w/ FICA, etc taken out. If the employer has a health insurance program for employees, all the maids get it - there's no distinction between those legal and illegal. and I doubt the employee or customers can easily partition the 12 maids into a subset of hard-working tax-paying moms and a subset of bottom-feeders that correspond to legals vs. illegals.

now there may be some employers who pay cash. but again, there's not a legal vs illegal distinction. a family farmer who does his own harvest hiring and needs workers for just 3 weeks may find it easiest to just pay cash. doesn't matter if you're legal or not - cash only. it's the hassle factor. no messing w/ unemployment compensation expenses, etc. it's just 3 weeks.

probably 2/3 of working illegals are paid by payroll checks with FICA and medicare deductions. if the company offers fringe benefits, they get them.

Remember when SWIFT meat company plants were raided by ICE a couple of years ago? Every single employee had a social security number and was paid through payroll checks. some were legal and some were not.

Crucifax Autumn
7/24/2009, 02:56 AM
And if we had stronger laws enforcing both sides...Employee and employer...Neither one would get away with it EXCEPT in the case of paying cash, and those businesses would be more easily detected due to the simple fact that they would seemingly be claiming to have harvested their entire crop themselves.

The simple truth is that cracking down hard on employers would serve 2 causes that benefit both the legal taxpayer and the illegal. For the taxpayer, they would end up employed in the positions that are vacated by following the law at an ahourly rate that would motivate people to be willing to do the work. Being a garbage man isn't a clean job that whitey wants to do, but whitey does it because they get paid a fair wage that makes it worthwhile to him. In the meantime, millions of people currently illegal would have more motivation to jump through all the legal hoops to get those same higher paying jobs while not having to subjsct themselves to the horrible working conditions, abuse, and ripoffs that they currently endure.

Seems like a win-win to me and to reference your earlier 15 dollar head of lettuce, it just won't happen. Most of the harvests that illegals take part in are on large corporate farms in california and so on that aren't offering the produce at a lower cost, they are just making more profit thanks to ignoring labor laws. Their profit might drop somewhat and prices would go up slightly, but the overall effect would merely be that corporate farms get a profit margin more in line with what a family farm in Kansas gets for their crops.

Scott D
7/24/2009, 05:30 AM
I know I wasn't satisfied with the hammer dropping on American Apparel. But, I think that's all we have to look forward to with companies that get busted.

MrJimBeam
7/24/2009, 05:38 AM
I wish you woulda...I'm waiting to see you get all pizzed off when you get nailed for violating the drunk-posting rule!

There is a rule against posting drunk? Wow, I thought everyone was smashed to begin with.

BornandBred
7/24/2009, 07:09 AM
Tough sh!t. 76 million babyboomers are marching toward retirement and guess who gets to pay for their healthcare.


OK, I'll bite. Of those 76 million babyboomers, I'd be willing to be that the VAST majority of them have been paying their taxes the majority of their lives. That means they've invested and when they retire they should get their return. They've, in theory, put the work in, and now should be given the benefit. Somebody who steps off a boat/crosses the river/other random illegal way of getting into the US for the first time hasn't paid anything into the system, but now gets full benefit. In other terms, the baby boomer is fully vested after years of service where the illegal is 100% vested from day one and they're both drawing from the account. That is a bad business model. It will fail.

The Remnant
7/24/2009, 09:08 AM
SanJoaquinSooner, the real issue isn't even about legal or illegal immigrants. Those who state that immigrants coming from Mexico and other countries in Central America are hardworking are absolutely right. If I was in their position, I would want to come here, too. The problem is that low-skilled workers without a HS diploma don't pay enough in taxes to offset the services that they receive. A recent study came to the conclusion that for every dollar they pay in taxes, they receive 3 dollars in services. That is a recipe for a disaster.

yermom
7/24/2009, 09:59 AM
OK, I'll bite. Of those 76 million babyboomers, I'd be willing to be that the VAST majority of them have been paying their taxes the majority of their lives. That means they've invested and when they retire they should get their return. They've, in theory, put the work in, and now should be given the benefit. Somebody who steps off a boat/crosses the river/other random illegal way of getting into the US for the first time hasn't paid anything into the system, but now gets full benefit. In other terms, the baby boomer is fully vested after years of service where the illegal is 100% vested from day one and they're both drawing from the account. That is a bad business model. It will fail.

the same case could me made for state workers, UAW retirees, etc...

the problem is that they are going to be taking out a lot more than they ever put in

BornandBred
7/24/2009, 10:07 AM
Oh yeah, it's a pyramid scheme for sure. I don't like it, but at least before this healthcare snafu it was going to last another 70 years or whatever the latest prediction was. We'd have time to figure something else out. But, now it's going to implode much sooner. Which, actually, for me, is a good thing. I want it gone anyways. I just don't want it to take the country with it.

SanJoaquinSooner
7/30/2009, 12:54 AM
SanJoaquinSooner, the real issue isn't even about legal or illegal immigrants. Those who state that immigrants coming from Mexico and other countries in Central America are hardworking are absolutely right. If I was in their position, I would want to come here, too. The problem is that low-skilled workers without a HS diploma don't pay enough in taxes to offset the services that they receive. A recent study came to the conclusion that for every dollar they pay in taxes, they receive 3 dollars in services. That is a recipe for a disaster.

If the issue is framed in terms of tax dollars paid vs tax dollars received in services, then the issue isn't about immigrants but below average incomes. A family of four with a household income of $36000 pays no federal or (in California) state income tax. Does that mean if the median household income is 36000 or less, it's a recipe for disaster?

No. The value of those who make modest incomes is not in the income taxes they pay, but in the productivity of their labor. Many industries are labor intensive and create of huge amount of wealth for the community.

For example, Fresno county's median household income is about 35000. Its agricultural output is $5 billion/yr. To service that output requires shipping and receiving, irrigation supplies, insurance, etc that adds a couple billion more to the economy. The modestly paid field workers and packers are part of the overall picture. You can't separate out just what they pay in taxes to measure their contribution, like these anti-immigration organizations do with their position paper spam.

It works that way in other industries as well. Tourism is actually the United States' largest export industry as measured by foreign dollars brought in. And it requires a huge labor intensive tourism/hotel/restaurant industry that is quite seasonal in nature.

I really don't mind restricting services to illegals or even legals. But the cost isn't what some want to claim and there may be benefits some want to ignore. more worrisome is the cost of 76 million retiring babyboomers, ___ million overweight Americans, ___ million smokers, ____ million Americans who never exercise, etc.


guest worker visa reform make so much more sense than the current black market of labor - regardless of the health care issue. But I don't expect that to happen during a recovery from the recession.

olevetonahill
7/30/2009, 12:59 AM
Tough sh!t. 76 million babyboomers are marching toward retirement and guess who gets to pay for their healthcare.
Most have worked their entire working Lives and Payed into a System , that has been robbed Blind By the Social libs in the Congress

this is on top of all the gov't employees' health care the taypayer covers. did remnant say he's a teacher? well i hope he's not a public school teacher whose health care is paid by my taxes.

I'm disappointed remnant never answered my question: who pays for the health care of the maids who clean the hotel rooms on Lake Arrowhead?

:rolleyes:

SanJoaquinSooner
7/30/2009, 01:13 AM
Most have worked their entire working Lives and Payed into a System , that has been robbed Blind By the Social libs in the Congress

Yeah, Catholic Charities will have their work cut out for them takin care of all of us.

TheHumanAlphabet
7/31/2009, 09:51 AM
No, my beef is with those people that decided to trek across the border without the proper authorization and paperwork.

I fail to understand why any American would want people to enter the country ILLEGALLY, set up domicile, live and work, taking resources from the legal citizens. This is a country of laws and up to 21 million (or whatever number you want to say) sits here, works and lives illegally in the country and you don't say anything. AMAZING. Most countries are more concerned with their borders and people entering and leaving than we are - and we are supposedly afraid of terrorists.

The Remnant
7/31/2009, 12:39 PM
A friend of my daughter works in fast food. He had a co-worker that was discovered to be illegal and let go. "Jose" then comes back 6 months later with a different SSN# and is hired under the name of "Felipe". Wonderful.

CrimsonJim
7/31/2009, 05:54 PM
Jose Felipe Illegal was just doing his part in providing us the cheapest food prices of any industrialized nation. Think of it as a service to our great nation. ;)

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/31/2009, 06:03 PM
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/fail-owned-english-language-fail.jpg?w=500&h=320

CrimsonJim
7/31/2009, 06:17 PM
http://www.irintech.com/x1/images/jean/english_do_you_speak.jpg

The Remnant
7/31/2009, 06:40 PM
Maybe Bill Maher was right.

CrimsonJim
7/31/2009, 06:54 PM
Nahhhhh. Couldn't be.

The Remnant
7/31/2009, 07:01 PM
To add to the problem illegal immigrants send what little money they do make back to Mexico.

OU_Sooners75
8/1/2009, 12:57 AM
Tough sh!t. 76 million babyboomers are marching toward retirement and guess who gets to pay for their healthcare.


this is on top of all the gov't employees' health care the taypayer covers. did remnant say he's a teacher? well i hope he's not a public school teacher whose health care is paid by my taxes.

I'm disappointed remnant never answered my question: who pays for the health care of the maids who clean the hotel rooms on Lake Arrowhead?


1. If he is, and he is not in California, then your tax dollars does not pay for it.
2. I would much rather pay for the retirees than the illegals.

You really cannot be this biased on the matter. There are those that worked their asses off their entire life, been here LEGALLY (apparently you do not understand the meaning of that word) that have paid their dues to life and society...and that have paid their taxes...so it is not like you are being footed the entire bill.

Ever hear of social security? in case you haven't part of the benefits is medicare and medicaid. So if you worked for 40+ years and paid into it, I think you are more than entitled to draw out of it.

OU_Sooners75
8/1/2009, 01:03 AM
this seems to reinforce a belief that there is some bifurcation of employment - those who hire legals and those who hire illegals. It doesn't play out that way in most situations - certainly not in agriculture, hotel & restaurant, construction(prior to the recession), food prep, and maintenance. Most of those who hire relatively permanent employees require a social security number and an ID to meet I-9 employment verification requirements. So suppose a hotel has 12 maids under employment. Maybe 7 are legal residents or U.S. citizens and 4 are illegals who use a cousin's or friend's social security number. and then one is using a fake card bought off the street. In a few months the SSA will write a letter to the employer saying the name doesn't match the number, and that one employee will have to quit or something. the other 4 illegals conceivably can continue working indefinitely - they have numbers with the correct matching name - just not their own. Prior to 9/11 they may have actually gotten their own real SS number through an inside connection. Probably harder to do that now.


This part of the post of yours pretty much tells me what I need to know....

And that is you apparently do not know the labor laws of this country!

It does not matter the type of business or organization that hires someone...the employer is to enforce and abide by the law......it does not matter if they are a fast food joint or microsoft. They are to make sure the potential employee is able to provide a social security number and two forms of legal identification that is certified by the United States of America.

They are to provide this information on a form called an I-9. They are also required to photocopy the identification cards and documents.

Not doing so is against the law...no matter if the potential employee is legal or illegal.

However, those that hire illegals will not even have record of such employees...considering they pay the under the table or they do not verify the legitimacy of the documents.

OU_Sooners75
8/1/2009, 01:09 AM
And to add to this BS...

This is a prime example of why there should not be an income tax in the first place.....but rather a different form of the government to grab money.

I say we need a president that would rather see EVERYONE in this country pay their taxes....And in that I mean I would love to see a president to abolish the current tax codes and implement a national sales tax...

That way, if you are here legally or illegally, or even on vacation, when you purchase something, you are paying taxes!!!!

God knows we Americans love to spend money...what better way to rip us off than to get rid of all taxes, income, capital gains, death, inheritance, etc, than to tax everything we buy at a greater rate?

SanJoaquinSooner
8/1/2009, 02:42 AM
This part of the post of yours pretty much tells me what I need to know....http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif

And that is you apparently do not know the labor laws of this country!

It does not matter the type of business or organization that hires someone...the employer is to enforce and abide by the law......it does not matter if they are a fast food joint or microsoft. They are to make sure the potential employee is able to provide a social security number and two forms of legal identification that is certified by the United States of America.

They are to provide this information on a form called an I-9. They are also required to photocopy the identification cards and documents.

Not doing so is against the law...no matter if the potential employee is legal or illegal.

However, those that hire illegals will not even have record of such employees...considering they pay the under the table or they do not verify the legitimacy of the documents.

Wrong. A school ID with a photo or a voter's registration card plus a SSN is sufficient. Even a library card works if it has certain info on it. IDs that are easily faked or borrowed. Many acceptable documents are not certified by the U.S. It's a low level threshold that allows an employer to legally cover his a$$. Translation: get me an ID with a name that matches a SSN and I can hire you, whether it's you or not.

see page 5: http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf

Also, look at the last paragraph of page one. THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PHOTOCOPY DOCUMENTS.

Every Swift meat processing employee was I-9 verified, but many were illegal. In fact Swift participated in the SS verification program where they send in the SSNs by computer to check. But SSA can't tell if you've borrowed it from a cousin. Some numbers are used by more than one person. It's not a red flag because some people have more than one job.

Jerk
8/1/2009, 01:42 PM
Did you guys see this?

http://democrashield.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/boehnerchart.jpg