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Collier11
7/13/2009, 01:51 PM
I think if there is anyone in MLB you can trust it is Pujols, yes im a Cardinals fan but I just think he is above that. Doesnt mean he isnt taking PEDs but he is doing it legally IMO

There will be critics, skeptics, and people who wont believe this and that is fine...I like to think there are a few honest athletes left out there and until he breaks my heart or retires a clean man, I will believe him.

Cardinals slugger Albert Pujols is batting cleanup for baseball

Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols, who has 32 home runs, 85 RBI and .338 batting average, is having one of the greatest seasons in history, putting up numbers last approached by Babe Ruth, Hack Wilson and Jimmie Foxx more than 70 years ago.



ST. LOUIS — Major League Baseball's 80th All-Star Game is Tuesday, but this year it is Albert Pujols' personal party.
The St. Louis Cardinals first baseman is having one of the greatest seasons in history, putting up numbers last approached by Babe Ruth, Hack Wilson and Jimmie Foxx more than 70 years ago. Yet, it is his 32 home runs, 85 RBI and .338 batting average that have drawn suspicion, leaving Pujols hurt and angry.

"I can understand people being disappointed with A-Rod and Manny," Pujols says of the New York Yankees' Alex Rodriguez and the Los Angeles Dodgers' Manny Ramirez, who have been ensnared in performance-enhancing drug controversies this year. "But just because Manny made a mistake, now I have to pay? Just because A-Rod made a mistake, now I have to pay? Oh, guilt by association? That's wrong.

"For people to be suspicious of me because of the year I'm having and for people to say I just haven't been caught, that makes me angry and disappointed.

"I would never do any of that crap. You think I'm going to ruin my relationship with God just because I want to get better in this game? You think I'm going to ruin everything because of steroids?"

Pujols, who fell .012 points short in batting average of becoming the first player since Hank Aaron in 1957 to hold the Triple Crown at the All-Star break, has spent most of his 8½-year career putting up MVP numbers and building an impeccable reputation. But he has become more outspoken, talking about baseball's drug problem, players who don't respect the game and his future in St. Louis.

Pujols, 29, says he was tested six times last year as part of MLB's drug policy. But if that's not good enough, Pujols vows to take a test every day and, if he is caught using performance-enhancing drugs, he says, he will pay back the Cardinals every penny he has earned.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, who has the most home runs at the All-Star break since Barry Bonds hit 39 and Luis Gonzalez hit 35 in 2001. "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

Pujols realizes America is looking for a hero. He is volunteering, only if America will let him.

"I can understand why people don't know who they can trust or their hero was caught," says Pujols, who has finished first or second in the National League MVP balloting in five of his eight seasons, with numbers remaining consistent before and since steroid testing began in 2003. "I want to be the guy people look up to. But I want to be the person who represents God, represents my family and represents the Cardinals the right way.

"So many people can't wait until I do something negative. I can't understand it. That's sad, because I want to be that poster boy in baseball. Just give me the chance."

Well-respected man

Pujols, who has three children with his wife, Deidre, and another baby on the way, goes to great lengths to maintain his untarnished image and uphold his deep religious beliefs. He doesn't drink or smoke. He doesn't have a tattoo or wear earrings. He doesn't go to bars, nightclubs or any place where his character could be assaulted.

"If we're in a hotel and a woman gets on the elevator by herself, I'll wait for the next one," Pujols says. "People have their agenda. You have to be careful who you can trust.

"It's the same thing with pictures. I'll have my picture taken on the field, but not off the field. Nowadays with photo technology, you can do so many things."

Pujols' on-field skills are admired by nearly every major leaguer, but he is also among the game's most respected players.

"He's my man," San Francisco Giants third baseman Pablo Sandoval says. "He's one I look up to. I think we all do."

Says Giant Randy Johnson, a five-time Cy Young Award winner, "I think Albert is the one guy in our game who could go to the opposition, say something, and they'd listen. That's how highly people regard him."

And the 6-3, 230-pounder is saying things more often, especially when it comes to showing respect for the game. The baseball cap should be worn properly. The jersey tucked. The back pockets in.

"I see teams take their jerseys out when the game is over," he says. "To me, that's not professional. I don't care what you do when you get off the field, but don't do it on the field. You don't want kids to see negative things."

Pujols, drafted in the 13th round in 1999, lives by his creed. He is in constant motion from the moment he enters the clubhouse five hours before game time until he departs late at night after lifting weights. Never is he clowning around, playing cards or watching TV.

"You've got to stay hungry," says Pujols, whose four grand slams this season are one shy of the NL record. "I see talent that is wasted after guys have one big year. I see players in the draft getting all of this money, thinking that guarantees them a trip to the big leagues.

"Just because you make $100 million, just because people say you're one of the best, doesn't mean you don't work hard."

Pujols' hard work has him on pace to go where only Ruth, Wilson and Foxx have been — a season with at least 50 home runs, 150 RBI and a .330 average. Then again, he already surpassed those Hall of Famers and every other player in history with at least 30 home runs and 100 RBI in his first eight seasons.

"It's as if he wants to not only be the best player today," Cardinals outfielder Chris Duncan says, "but the greatest player who ever played."

Free agency looms

Pujols received a record 5.3 million votes in All-Star Game fan voting and is eager to be the unofficial host of the festivities in his hometown, where he is scheduled to catch President Obama's first pitch Tuesday. He purchased a 24-person suite and tickets for 42 other friends and family members. It's a chance for everyone to celebrate his career and recognize he is the best player.

It also could be the prelude to his farewell.

Pujols, who signed a seven-year, $100 million contract in February 2004, is a free agent in two years. There are 16 players this year earning more than his $16 million salary, which includes four players who will be at the game. The question that haunts Cardinal Nation is whether the team will pay to keep him.

"I'm happy where I am and would love to be a Cardinal for the rest of my career," Pujols says. "If it's time for me to move on, I'll let God show me."

Pujols and the Cardinals have yet to open negotiations about a contract extension, but team owner Bill DeWitt says he hopes to begin talks this winter. For the Cardinals, time is running out.

"He knows we want him to be here, and we're going to make every effort to see that happen," DeWitt says.

Pujols is watching closely, trying to determine the Cardinals' plans. Will manager Tony La Russa, whom he adores, return? Will they be a big-time player in the free agent market? Or will they be content to keep their payroll below $100 million, leaving Pujols without adequate protection in the lineup?

"When you already made the money Albert has, you don't need to compromise," says Pujols' agent, Dan Lozano. "He is not going to chase the money. He wants to chase the rings."

The Cardinals, who haven't reached the playoffs since winning the World Series in 2006, enter the break in first. Yet there are fears of what will transpire in the second half. Pujols has been walked 71 times, including 32 intentionally, the most by any hitter outside Bonds since the stat became official in 1955.

It's this fear for Pujols, and the fact the cleanup hitters are batting .225 behind him, that could derail the season. It also could halt Pujols' bid to surpass Roger Maris' mark of 61 home runs, set in 1961. It since has been surpassed six times — all within a four-year period — and all by players linked to steroids. Pujols could become baseball's clean single-season home run king.

"I know I'm on the pace, but don't want to think about that," Pujols says. "To me, 62 isn't the record. You've got to hit 74. The king is still Barry."

But Pujols doesn't need the record to help his legacy. "History will be the litmus test," Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak says. "If he continues like this and there are no blemishes, he will go down as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, in an era that has been questioned."

Scott D
7/13/2009, 01:56 PM
I don't trust anyone born on Tuesday, or named Albert...it's just how I roll ;)

Collier11
7/13/2009, 02:05 PM
you shut your whore mouth :D

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 02:24 PM
**** an albert

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 02:24 PM
i did 5 star this.... but there are so many cool guys now that like to 1 star stuff....

yermom
7/13/2009, 02:55 PM
he sounds kinda boring :D

it also sounds like he's doing it the right way though

i hope he beats Bonds' record outright.

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 02:57 PM
A-Roid will get it first

yermom
7/13/2009, 02:58 PM
i mean the single season record

Scott D
7/13/2009, 03:00 PM
Ain't none of em ever gonna break Josh Gibson's record, so they can all suck it.

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:06 PM
i mean the single season record

oh gotcha... doubtful... with out juice... in my opinion....

Collier11
7/13/2009, 03:06 PM
If Gibson was so good why didnt he play with the whites...wait ;)

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:07 PM
Ain't none of em ever gonna break Josh Gibson's record, so they can all suck it.

Cy Young's record will never ever ever ever ever ever be broken..... lol

and I doubt there will be a 300 game winner ever again..

Collier11
7/13/2009, 03:09 PM
there will be another 300 game winner, probably lots. Not in this group but before too long.

Now there will never be a 500 game winner whatever the hell Cy has

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:14 PM
300 might be hard to do now days... with 5-6 days of rest.... and most pitchers not going over 7 innings, gives more hope for blown saves.

do the math... age and wins... it's insane...

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:15 PM
say you start pitching at 23....

you need to pitch 15 seasons, and get 20 wins each season....

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:18 PM
seen this..

Considering we're in the days of relief pitchers, closers, and CGs being an accomplishment nowadays (rather than just another day in the office back in the day), I'd say NO.

Now that Randy has done it, the next runners on the list:

The 200+ club:

Jamie Moyer - 250
Andy Pettitte - 220
Pedro Martinez - 214
John Smoltz - 210

(A big NO to them all. They have no chance of reaching 300)

CC Sabathia has the most wins for a pitcher in his 20s, at 122.

My friends, the era of 300 wins is over

Curly Bill
7/13/2009, 03:24 PM
seen this..

Considering we're in the days of relief pitchers, closers, and CGs being an accomplishment nowadays (rather than just another day in the office back in the day), I'd say NO.

Now that Randy has done it, the next runners on the list:

The 200+ club:

Jamie Moyer - 250
Andy Pettitte - 220
Pedro Martinez - 214
John Smoltz - 210

(A big NO to them all. They have no chance of reaching 300)

CC Sabathia has the most wins for a pitcher in his 20s, at 122.

My friends, the era of 300 wins is over

Never say never, but this is a real possibility.

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:27 PM
I'm sure there will be another Randy Johnson at some point... so if my life depended on it... I'd prlly say we will see another... maybe Tim Lincecum will have a shot at it... He just turned 25 and has 35 wins... so he will be at about 45 at seasons end.

so 45 at age 25....

lets say he pitches 15 more seasons....

so he needs to average 17 wins a season for 15 more seasons = 255 + the original 45.

Collier11
7/13/2009, 03:34 PM
Felix Hernandez is one possibility...he has 48 wins and is only 23


With pitchers it is a crapshoot cus of arm issues, no decisions, blow saves, etc...but there will be another 300 game winner

Curly Bill
7/13/2009, 03:44 PM
Felix Hernandez is one possibility...he has 48 wins and is only 23

Dude is good.

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:45 PM
claims hes 23... i always add 3 years

Scott D
7/13/2009, 03:47 PM
there will be another 300 game winner, probably lots. Not in this group but before too long.

Now there will never be a 500 game winner whatever the hell Cy has

to be fair there won't be another 300 game loser like Cy Young either ;)

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 03:48 PM
to be fair there won't be another 300 game loser like Cy Young either ;)



i dunno.. some of the dudes on the Astros blow dong!!!! :D :D :D :D

Scott D
7/13/2009, 03:51 PM
i dunno.. some of the dudes on the Astros blow dong!!!! :D :D :D :D

nobody's gonna have the longevity to lose 300 games.

Collier11
7/13/2009, 03:58 PM
Zito?

Scott D
7/13/2009, 04:09 PM
Tom Glavine is the only "active" player in the top 50 of the Losses (http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?c_id=mlb&baseballScope=mlb&statType=2&sortByStat=L&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0) category.

Ironically the top 7 guys on that list, are all 300 game winners.

JLEW1818
7/13/2009, 04:17 PM
damn.

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/13/2009, 08:21 PM
To be fair, they lost LOTS of 1-0 decision back then ;)

TUSooner
7/16/2009, 04:17 PM
bumpity

JLEW1818
7/16/2009, 05:17 PM
take away the juice.... is Clemens the best pitcher ever? (since ww2)

has a bunch of cy youngs..... 3 cy youngs in three different decades.... that's kinda good.

Scott D
7/16/2009, 05:31 PM
no, because the juice is responsible for more than half his career.

JLEW1818
7/16/2009, 05:52 PM
what year would you say he started it....

Eielson
7/16/2009, 07:18 PM
Chad Billingsley! (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7705/career;_ylt=Ak2heEPAjY951AYA_PGkOv6FCLcF)

Clayton Kershaw! (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8180/career;_ylt=Ak2heEPAjY951AYA_PGkOv6FCLcF)

JLEW1818
7/16/2009, 07:20 PM
Kershaw is sick... played him in high school

Scott D
7/17/2009, 05:13 AM
what year would you say he started it....

if you go by what's out there, his cheating started with his joining the Blue Jays in 1997.

Eielson
7/17/2009, 08:45 AM
It seems a little odd that his best year as far as ERA goes was when he was 43. That's just me, though.

Collier11
7/17/2009, 08:53 AM
^^^ Thats just impossible if you ask me...without "help" that is

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/17/2009, 11:12 AM
To be fair, Satchel Paige pitched 3 scoreless innings at the age of 59(or there about). ;)

JLEW1818
7/17/2009, 12:09 PM
so take everything before 1997... is he hall of fame? probably

Scott D
7/17/2009, 01:01 PM
so take everything before 1997... is he hall of fame? probably

192-111 3.06 ERA 38 Shutouts 2590 Strikeouts.

From 1993-1996 he was 40-39 with an ERA around 4.00, broke 200k's in a season once, and had 4 shutouts. So, no....he misses the HOF and is likely on his way out of the league without the juice.

JLEW1818
7/17/2009, 03:03 PM
but he "claims" he didn't take them in Houston ..:D

He is still innocent until proven guilty .....

but still tho. 192 wins..... how many pitchers in the modern day have that many?

Just remember if you count Clemens out, you have to count everybody mentioned on the Mitchell report, out too.



will Roger got the hall of fame? probably not ..... Do banned substances make baseball better? Absolutely, in my opinion.

JLEW1818
7/17/2009, 03:04 PM
NEW NAMES

Chad Allen
Mike Bell
Gary Bennett
Larry Bigbie
Kevin Brown
Alex Cabrera
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Matt Franco
Eric Gagne
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Todd Hundley
Mike Judd
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Luis Perez
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Armando Rios
Brian Roberts
F.P. Santangelo
Mike Stanton
Ricky Stone
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Jeff Williams
Todd Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun

JLEW1818
7/17/2009, 03:05 PM
PREVIOUSLY LINKED

Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Ricky Bones
Paul Byrd
Ken Caminiti
Jose Canseco
Paxton Crawford
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Ryan Franklin
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Ryan Jorgensen
Wally Joyner
Gary Matthews Jr.
Rafael Palmeiro
John Rocker
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Derrick Turnbow
Randy Velarde
Matt Williams

Scott D
7/17/2009, 11:32 PM
some of those names make me laugh.

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/17/2009, 11:39 PM
Yeah...obviously steroids don't help everyone

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 01:40 AM
I agree Roids help a lot.... but when your a voter... you almost have to throw it out... when did so and so do what???? here is where I support Barry Bonds..

He has 500+ Stolen bases, and 500+ Homeruns..... give me another MLB with 400 400 ....

that is all

Scott D
7/18/2009, 11:49 AM
Bonds is an interesting subject, because unlike Clemens he had the body of work prior to his usage (starting after the McGwire/Sosa season) to easily be a first ballot HoF player.

Eielson
7/18/2009, 01:40 PM
I don't really get why batters use steroids. I've seen very few who couldn't easily get where they are physically without the use of steroids. It's not like you're going to have trouble getting the right food when you're making millions of dollars.

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 01:50 PM
wow i was drunk last night...

Curly Bill
7/18/2009, 03:09 PM
I don't really get why batters use steroids. I've seen very few who couldn't easily get where they are physically without the use of steroids. It's not like you're going to have trouble getting the right food when you're making millions of dollars.

Roids makes them stronger, especially if they are willing to combine them with a strenuous workout program.

Strength = more bat speed, more bat speed = more hits, and especially more hits that travel a long distance.

Eielson
7/18/2009, 03:55 PM
Roids makes them stronger, especially if they are willing to combine them with a strenuous workout program.

I understand strength's place in baseball, but I don't understand why baseball players feel they need roids to get it. Steroids aren't the only way to get stronger.

Curly Bill
7/18/2009, 03:57 PM
I understand strength's place in baseball, but I don't understand why baseball players feel they need roids to get it. Steroids aren't the only way to get stronger.

Despite all the harmful side effects, etc...Steroids are very effective at making peeps stronger. It's not an accident that so many elite level athletes have used them to try and get ahead.

I'm sorry, but a healthy diet, protein powders, creatine, whatever, just does not work as well.

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 04:49 PM
my friend took them for a short period of time... he says they are so "super-natural"

Scott D
7/18/2009, 07:34 PM
I understand strength's place in baseball, but I don't understand why baseball players feel they need roids to get it. Steroids aren't the only way to get stronger.

Probably because it's a 'faster' method, and they're constantly battling to keep their 'edge'.

Scott D
7/18/2009, 07:36 PM
Roids makes them stronger, especially if they are willing to combine them with a strenuous workout program.

Strength = more bat speed, more bat speed = more hits, and especially more hits that travel a long distance.

strength doesn't play into bat speed all that much. It's more about the fast twitch muscles for bat speed. there have been some reports that using steroids or hgh has improved a batter's eyesight and their hand/eye coordination. Both of which play a lot more into hitting than pure strength does.

Scott D
7/18/2009, 07:40 PM
but he "claims" he didn't take them in Houston ..:D

He is still innocent until proven guilty .....

but still tho. 192 wins..... how many pitchers in the modern day have that many?

Just remember if you count Clemens out, you have to count everybody mentioned on the Mitchell report, out too.



will Roger got the hall of fame? probably not ..... Do banned substances make baseball better? Absolutely, in my opinion.

Oh, and on a side note...by the time he got to Houston he'd already been fully engrossed in using them (allegedly) in his Toronto and NY (first tour) years where he had his renaissance. Personally, because of that I'd put his first year in Houston under the microscope of potentially being a continuation of his using. The drop-off after 2004 isn't coincidental, despite the fact that he'd use the lack of run support excuse for 2005.

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 07:51 PM
we really did suck for him tho... i remember watching games in 2005, seemed like we never scored when he pitched.... ( i liked Roger all 3 years he was in Houston) I've hated him every other year.

Steroids can make average players good....
Steroids can make good players great....

Scott D
7/18/2009, 08:10 PM
Steroids can maintain an average player as average instead of below average

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 08:24 PM
true to..

Eielson
7/18/2009, 08:28 PM
I'm sorry, but a healthy diet, protein powders, creatine, whatever, just does not work as well.

The food that a person eats is going to have a bigger effect on him than what steroids will. Sure it's harder, but I don't imagine it's too difficult to get the food you need when you have millions of dollars to get it, and could even have somebody else cook it. Shoot, people like A-Rod could pay some of the greatest training minds in the world to live in his house and follow him around if he wanted to.

Eielson
7/18/2009, 08:32 PM
Steroids can make average players good....
Steroids can make good players great....

They can make you better, but don't go that far.

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 08:39 PM
"Can"

Eielson
7/18/2009, 08:42 PM
"Can"

Not really. Especially when half the league is already on them.

JLEW1818
7/18/2009, 08:49 PM
they have made lots of good players great.... Mark, Sammy ...

Curly Bill
7/18/2009, 10:08 PM
strength doesn't play into bat speed all that much. It's more about the fast twitch muscles for bat speed.

....and how do you think one develops those fast twitch muscle fibers? By performing exercises that focus on strength and explosion.

* Yes I know genetics determines the % of fast or slow twitch fibers a person has
but one can help devleop those fibers that are present.

Curly Bill
7/18/2009, 10:11 PM
The food that a person eats is going to have a bigger effect on him than what steroids will. Sure it's harder, but I don't imagine it's too difficult to get the food you need when you have millions of dollars to get it, and could even have somebody else cook it. Shoot, people like A-Rod could pay some of the greatest training minds in the world to live in his house and follow him around if he wanted to.

...but yet he used steroids, why do you think that is?

Because they are proven to work. Yes there are side effects, but if you want to get stronger, faster, more powerful there is no denying that steroids will do it.

There is a reason that world class athletes, especially in sports requiring strength, speed and explosion are willing to cheat, even risk harmful side effects, by using steroids.

Eielson
7/18/2009, 10:26 PM
....and how do you think one develops those fast twitch muscle fibers? By performing exercises that focus on strength and explosion.

Fiber types are highly genetic. They can be changed some, though.

Eielson
7/18/2009, 10:38 PM
...but yet he used steroids, why do you think that is?

Because they are proven to work. Yes there are side effects, but if you want to get stronger, faster, more powerful there is no denying that steroids will do it.

There is a reason that world class athletes, especially in sports requiring strength, speed and explosion are willing to cheat, even risk harmful side effects, by using steroids.

I can understand why football players/track athletes/power lifters/bodybuilders/and a bunch of other people would use steroids. Not to say it's right, but I can see why they do it. Baseball players just aren't freakish physical specimens. I'm not sure if I'm getting what I'm trying to say across. Bottom line, most players don't need to use steroids, and should step in the weight room first.

Curly Bill
7/18/2009, 10:42 PM
Steroids allows a player to work out longer and with more intensity, and to recover faster. Do you not understand that there is a reason all these baseball players were willing to risk so much to use these things? Do you think they used them just for giggles?

If you want to go on a moral crusade against steroids I'm right there with ya, but to keep insisting they don't do what these players took them for defies common sense.

Eielson
7/18/2009, 11:32 PM
Steroids allows a player to work out longer and with more intensity, and to recover faster. Do you not understand that there is a reason all these baseball players were willing to risk so much to use these things? Do you think they used them just for giggles?

If you want to go on a moral crusade against steroids I'm right there with ya, but to keep insisting they don't do what these players took them for defies common sense.

I'm not trying to say steroids do not work. They work. I do not deny that.

I just think that with decent genetics, and a good trainer that most people could be one of the stronger baseball players within a year or two. It's easier with steroids, but I personally don't understand why they don't just put in some hard work and avoid all the risk they go through. You still have to get in the weight room either way to get what you're after. I think some baseball players skip the weights part. Isn't it odd when steroid users don't even look like they lift weights?

I'm not really talking about the McGwires, Cansecos, Bonds, and Sosas. I understand those guys. Most of the others I don't.

Chuck Knoblauch?
http://www.thediamondangle.com/archive/july02/kcroyals/knob4.jpg

Neifi Perez?
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/UHpTpQbKf0C/Toronto+Blue+Jays+v+Detroit+Tigers/OqGyo2EdSmu/Neifi+Perez

Jose Guillen?
http://nopressbox.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/t1_jose_guillen.jpg

I'm not sure if that cleared anything up either. I'm honestly starting to forget what I was arguing about so I'm pretty much done.

Scott D
7/18/2009, 11:47 PM
....and how do you think one develops those fast twitch muscle fibers? By performing exercises that focus on strength and explosion.

* Yes I know genetics determines the % of fast or slow twitch fibers a person has
but one can help devleop those fibers that are present.

I'm still not sold on it increasing bat speed, at least not in any appreciable manner. I had a looping swing, but was able to generate more bat speed than a kid I knew was using because he was trying to get drafted.

Scott D
7/18/2009, 11:50 PM
Well Eielson, it's been suggested (by Gary Sheffield, so you decide the credibility) that the reason you've found that more latin players have been caught taking roids or hgh is that they're faced with the prospect of either succeeding or finding themselves back in their home country with nothing to show for their efforts to make it in the majors. For them, the risk is definitely worth the reward.

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/19/2009, 02:33 AM
One issue to look at is the recovery aspect. They play so many game and deal with lots of minor little muscle related injuries. Steroids help them cut their recovery time down, which increases productivity. Why do you think so many players are now having hip and back issues in the last two years. A lack of steroids makes this injuries more prevalent and severe.

JLEW1818
7/19/2009, 11:21 AM
your just naming certain players now... lets look at big mac and sammy... the whole ****ing summer of 1998 was a ****ing lie.

but was it good for baseball ? yah it actually was

Curly Bill
7/19/2009, 11:35 AM
I personally don't understand why they don't just put in some hard work and avoid all the risk they go through. You still have to get in the weight room either way to get what you're after.

Did you see the part where I said steroids allows them to work out with more intensity and to recover faster? So...that work they put in in the weight room is magnified when they're on steroids. These guys don't take steroids so they can avoid working out, they take them so they get more out of their workouts.

Curly Bill
7/19/2009, 11:38 AM
I'm still not sold on it increasing bat speed, at least not in any appreciable manner.

Then why do they take them? All other things being equal someone with greater strength is going to be able to get their bat moving quicker and with greater velocity than someone not as strong.

It's not a coincidence that so many homeruns were hit during the steroid era in baseball.

JLEW1818
7/19/2009, 11:38 AM
and not just Steroids, HGH and other **** can help a lot too.


**** it, and make it all legal for what i care..


It does increase power... Lets look at Bonds for a sec, he would still have a ton of homeruns with out Steroids, but not 763 or w/e... think about the balls he barley hits out... do those go out if no juice

JLEW1818
7/19/2009, 11:40 AM
I'm really surprised Bonds has not came back... he is almost at 3,000 hits

Curly Bill
7/19/2009, 11:42 AM
and not just Steroids, HGH and other **** can help a lot too.


**** it, and make it all legal for what i care

Not at all in favor of that. It makes me happy that from all I've heard the guys implicated with using steroids have little chance of ever getting in the HOF.

However, to try and say they don't work is naive at best. There's a reason so many players took them.

Mixer!
7/19/2009, 12:43 PM
I'm really surprised Bonds has not came back... he is almost at 3,000 hits
Bonds is plutonium at this point. You can also say "collusion".

Eielson
7/19/2009, 01:03 PM
Did you see the part where I said steroids allows them to work out with more intensity and to recover faster? So...that work they put in in the weight room is magnified when they're on steroids. These guys don't take steroids so they can avoid working out, they take them so they get more out of their workouts.

Then their workouts suck. From everything I see, baseball players generally are more prone to swing around kettlebells and throw medicine balls than to actually lift. I don't really know what the pros do, but most of them, even the ones supposedly on steroids, look like they're no different. Guys like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds trained hard AND used steroids. You can easily see how it improved their game.

I believe people look at them and think that if they use steroids they will get the same results. Personally, I think that the training hard part was a bigger part of the equation than the steroids. I think that most people just ignore the importance of training hard and intelligently like the guys I listed above most likely did, and it shows. There aren't a whole lot of baseball players that you can point out and say that you couldn't easily get those same results "naturally".

Scott D
7/19/2009, 02:19 PM
Then why do they take them? All other things being equal someone with greater strength is going to be able to get their bat moving quicker and with greater velocity than someone not as strong.

It's not a coincidence that so many homeruns were hit during the steroid era in baseball.

Well the home runs issue has multiple factors...from hgh, suppliments, steroids to balls being wound differently having more or less cork at the center, smaller ballparks, lower pitching mounds, etc.

How hard a ball is thrown can play just as much of a factor in if it's a home run or not as the bat speed of the hitter. Two guys of equal strength with equal bat speed will have different distances on a home run hit off of a 98 mph fastball and an 82 mph changeup.

I'm not saying that steroid use doesn't help increase bat speed, but that I don't think that increase is large enough to make a great difference.

Curly Bill
7/19/2009, 04:20 PM
Then their workouts suck.

Seriously, you're so knowledgeable about this you're in a position to make this statement? Lets just say you're naive on the matter and leave it at that. :O

Eielson
7/19/2009, 07:14 PM
Seriously, you're so knowledgeable about this you're in a position to make this statement? Lets just say you're naive on the matter and leave it at that. :O

I had a valid point, but it's not easy to discuss something with somebody who has such a false sense of superiority on the subject.

Curly Bill
7/19/2009, 09:13 PM
I've worked around and with athletes, coaches and trainers most of my adult life. Want to compare credentials?

Eielson
7/19/2009, 11:19 PM
I've worked around and with athletes, coaches and trainers most of my adult life. Want to compare credentials?

Yeah, you first.

Eielson
7/20/2009, 01:19 PM
I guess he forfeited.

Curly Bill
7/20/2009, 01:20 PM
Check your spek. ;)

Eielson
7/20/2009, 01:30 PM
Check your spek. ;)

Nothing in there lead me to believe you are THE authority on steroids. Not a whole lot to make me believe you're a training genius, either.

Curly Bill
7/20/2009, 01:32 PM
Oh well...

For some reason a couple hundred MLB players felt the need to take them, probably just for the enjoyment of it right? :rolleyes:

Oh wait, they could have had the same benefit by eating their Wheaties in the morning. :P

Eielson
7/20/2009, 01:38 PM
Oh well...

For some reason a couple hundred MLB players felt the need to take them, probably just for the enjoyment of it right? :rolleyes:

Oh wait, they could have had the same benefit by eating their Wheaties in the morning. :P

Next time you see your strength and conditioning coach friend, please ask him why it is that so many of his football players (that aren't using steroids) that he is training could tear most MLB players in half...even the ones on steroids. Since you know...you can't big if you're not on steroids!

Curly Bill
7/20/2009, 01:41 PM
Answer the question dumas, why have a couple hundred MLB players used steroids...???

You think maybe they know something that you don't?

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/20/2009, 01:54 PM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/nfl/20080921-9999-1s21list.html

SO much for that football players not using steroids beating up the steroid using baseball players...

Eielson
7/20/2009, 02:13 PM
Answer the question dumas, why have a couple hundred MLB players used steroids...???

You think maybe they know something that you don't?

This is the kind of thing any moron can say. At least you would have a point if you had mentioned something baseball related, though. We aren't talking about pitching, fielding, or batting here. We're talking training. Saying that somebody has to know more about training than you because he players baseball is absolutely ridiculous. I've met very few baseball players who knew much about training, and they got that knowledge from something completely away from baseball.

Obviously they used steroids to get faster gains, and felt it would make them a better player. Which as I've said more than one time in this thread, it does. I'm not sure why you want to keep arguing that part when we both agree. What I'm saying is that it doesn't take steroids to get to an elite level physically in the MLB, and that some baseball players, even with the use of steroids, are unimpressive.

So now it's your turn to answer the question. If steroids are necessary to for you to be one of the stronger players in the MLB, why is it that without the use of steroids, there are so many football players (even as low as the high school level), that could embarrass most MLB players in the weight room?

Collier11
7/20/2009, 02:24 PM
Next time you see your strength and conditioning coach friend, please ask him why it is that so many of his football players (that aren't using steroids) that he is training could tear most MLB players in half...even the ones on steroids. Since you know...you can't big if you're not on steroids!

This is idiotic, first of all you are flat wrong on two different points. How could you ever prove that any NFL player could "tear most MLB players in half". Ive seen 300lb meat heads get laid out by much smaller guys, every man is different when it comes to fighting. Have you ever seen how big some of the guys in MLB are anyway? Also, NFL players train different muscles and have much different strengths than baseball players. Nfl players are trained more violently as a whole

2nd, ever heard of HGH. There is a good if not great chance that most of the NFl and MLB are on HGH so dont play the fool as if they are all clean in the nfl

Collier11
7/20/2009, 02:25 PM
there are so many football players (even as low as the high school level), that could embarrass most MLB players in the weight room?

Again, not necessarily true.

Gandalf_The_Grey
7/20/2009, 02:29 PM
If you don't think high school and college football don't have a steroid problem...then you aren't paying attention

Eielson
7/20/2009, 02:40 PM
How could you ever prove that any NFL player could "tear most MLB players in half".

Oh, you got me there. :P


Also, NFL players train different muscles and have much different strengths than baseball players.

Different muscles? I'd like to hear more on this. When a baseball player trains his legs, does he not train his glutes, hamstrings, or quads? If not, that isn't very smart. If they do, they are way behind.

Eielson
7/20/2009, 02:43 PM
If you don't think high school and college football don't have a steroid problem...then you aren't paying attention

Okay, since we don't know what football players are on steroids and which ones aren't, lets just say they all use steroids. Aren't the steroid users in the NFL stronger and more athletic than the steroid-users in the MLB?

Curly Bill
7/20/2009, 02:45 PM
So now it's your turn to answer the question. If steroids are necessary to for you to be one of the stronger players in the MLB,

Show me where I said that and then I'll answer.

All I've argued is that those of you who want to argue steroids have no effect on baseball players are dead wrong.

Collier11
7/20/2009, 02:46 PM
Oh, you got me there. :P

Dont make me tear you in half, I played baseball ;)

Different muscles? I'd like to hear more on this. When a baseball player trains his legs, does he not train his glutes, hamstrings, or quads? If not, that isn't very smart. If they do, they are way behind.

What im saying is that they train differently, we all have the same muscles no sh*T, but you train them differently for different sports

Curly Bill
7/20/2009, 02:46 PM
...and no one has argued that baseball players are stronger than football players. Where did you pull that from?

Eielson
7/20/2009, 02:55 PM
All I've ever argued is that those of you who want to argue steroids have no effect on baseball players are dead wrong.

All I've ever argued is that steroids aren't necessary to have the strength to compete at a high level in the MLB.

So can we agree that we've been arguing for several pages over something that we agree about?

Collier11
7/20/2009, 02:59 PM
for the marginal athlete they can def help, although I would argue that they help less in baseball than any other sport cus baseball requires the least amount of athleticism to be great.

Eielson
7/20/2009, 03:00 PM
...and no one has argued that baseball players are stronger than football players. Where did you pull that from?

It was just a comparison. Football players focus more on training, and get better results because of it. This is oversimplifying, but steroids give you strength, yet there are tons of football players who haven't used steroids that are much stronger than steroid-using MLB players.

The four guys I've listed as successfully using steroids (McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, and Canseco) are all built more like football players.

Scott D
7/20/2009, 05:09 PM
for the marginal athlete they can def help, although I would argue that they help less in baseball than any other sport cus baseball requires the least amount of athleticism to be great.

that's what I'm sayin....because I got two words to argue anyone who wants to argue this. John Kruk. :D

Eielson
8/8/2009, 12:03 PM
The media is just great. We somehow made a list of 104 and yet only 83 tests were positive. Not even 83 players, just 83 tests. To top it off, these positive tests could have been caused by legal supplements.

soonerinabilene
8/8/2009, 04:15 PM
The media is just great. We somehow made a list of 104 and yet only 83 tests were positive. Not even 83 players, just 83 tests. To top it off, these positive tests could have been caused by legal supplements.

Ive been thinking that the NY times doesnt really have a source for the names it says are coming out from that test. I honestly think that they are just saying a name every few weeks to see if the player admits it or not. I mean, look at who they have said are on the list and then look at that players stats. Its not a leap to say that they are/were on something at the time of the test. Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod. Its not like they are spitting out names like Jeff Huson or Omar Vizquel.