The Sickle and Hammer v. The Swastika

[SicEmBaylor]

I was watching Big Brother the other night (it's summer), and I noticed one of the guys from the previous season that was trying to get back on the show was walking around the house wearing a red (of course) CCCP shirt that had a sickle and hammer on it. Evidently nobody had a problem with that.

I honestly can't see why the swastika should be any more offensive than a sickle and hammer. You couldn't get away with walking around wearing a black t-shirt with the swastika on it, so why is it okay to wear a red shirt with the sickle and hammer?

I'm not easily offended, but for whatever reason it really burns my *** more to see a sickle and a hammer than it does a swastika. It's either because the sickle is more trendy or it's an indication of my politics......in either case, I can't stand commie shirts.

Che shirts definitely fall into this same category. I've never seen someone walking around with a Himmler shirt.

[Crucifax Autumn]

It's because you're a nazi! lol

[Chuck Bao]

One is a misguided and clearly failed human experiment. The other is a clear and present danger under the guise of extreme nationalism, racism or religion. I would assume that wearing either symbol would be a form of mockery. That is unless you get a swastika tattoo and then I would get a bit more concerned.

[Okla-homey]

FWIW, just a couple months ago, around the time their song "Do You Realize" was being considered for the title of "the official state rock song," a Flaming Lips bandmember wore a hammer/sickle t-shirt into the Oklahoma capitol and set-off a firestorm of righteous indignation among several legislators.

[walkoffsooner]

A Longhorn shirt as the same affect on me

[Crucifax Autumn]

I prefer this one:

http://system.barflyclub.com/include/image/events/ce7a18b0-8eac-46a8-8a1d-2430719e0177.gif

It came last night of sadness...

[John Kochtoston]

You can have my 1972 Summit Series replica Tretiak jersey when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

[Mixer!]

Pfft, Lokomotiv was better.

[The Remnant]

It is kind of like some misguided individual wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt.

[bluedogok]

It is kind of like some misguided individual wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt.
There was an article a few years back discussing the "Che" merchandise and how it is kind of ironic that his image has been such a boon for capitalists and the family having some problems with it. Much of the "capitalist exploitation" of Che's image has been at the hands of the Cuban government.
Here is an article about it: LA Times - Keeping Che Alive -- With Capitalism (http://articles.latimes.com/2004/sep/20/opinion/oe-anderson20).

He looks like he is ready for a role in Planet of the Apes from this pic.
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AH814_ltvarg_20080630153727.jpg

[Scott D]

Ironically Che ended up where he ended up so that CIA backed locals were able to get the drop on him and kill him because Castro kicked him out of Cuba for being too crazy.

In one sense, Che was bin Laden before bin Laden even considered being Che.

but back to SicEm's post...it helps to indiscriminately kill everyone including your own people than to be tied to a specific type of genocide in acceptability. Considering that the swastika is tied to 'fringe' groups whom still promote racial "cleansing and purity", it's easy to see why the Hammer and Sickle isn't seen anywhere near the threat and/or symbol that it once meant.

[Curly Bill]

The thing is the peeps that wear these shirts aren't smart enough to know what they symbolize, they just think they're being cool.

[Scott D]

The thing is the peeps that wear these shirts aren't smart enough to know what they symbolize, they just think they're being cool.

Well, it's good to remember a majority of people wearing them weren't born until Gorbachev was in charge of the USSR so they didn't know about the spectre of USSR v. USA except for history books.

[StoopTroup]

Flew in from Miami Beach BOAC
Didn't get to bed last night
Oh, the way the paper bag was on my knee
Man, I had a dreadful flight
I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the USSR, yeah

Been away so long I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey disconnect the phone
I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSR

Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the west behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
The Sooners always on my my my my my my my my my mind
Oh, come on
Hu Hey Hu, hey, ah, yeah
yeah, yeah, yeah
I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are, boys
Back in the USSR

Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the west behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
The Sooners always on my my my my my my my my my mind

Oh, show me round your snow peaked
mountain way down south
Take me to you daddy's farm
Let me hear your balalaika's ringing out
Come and keep your comrade warm
I'm back in the USSR
Hey, You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the USSR
Oh, let me tell you honey

[Curly Bill]

Well, it's good to remember a majority of people wearing them weren't born until Gorbachev was in charge of the USSR so they didn't know about the spectre of USSR v. USA except for history books.

Which goes to my these peeps are stupid theory, because reading is probably not something they spend much time at.

[Scott D]

Which goes to my these peeps are stupid theory, because reading is probably not something they spend much time at.

*shrug* I don't consider it a lack of reading or even stupidity. Most people don't try to understand something they can't, won't, or choose not to relate to.

[Curly Bill]

*shrug* I don't consider it a lack of reading or even stupidity. Most people don't try to understand something they can't, won't, or choose not to relate to.

Then we can chalk it up to ignorance.

[JohnnyMack]

Then we can chalk it up to ignorance.

This.

[Curly Bill]

I gotta tell ya JM, you and I are agreeing on things a little more often these days. Does it scare you as much as it does me? ;)

[Scott D]

Then we can chalk it up to ignorance.

pretty much, and it's a two way street in pretty much every setting.

[Curly Bill]

Oh, there's ignorace all around and on every side, there's no denying that.

[KC//CRIMSON]

I saw a young kid wearing a sickle and hammer t-shirt at the gym the other day, I didn't think twice about it. Meh.

[Curly Bill]

You wouldn't.

You probably thought you'd found a kindred spirit. ;)

[Scott D]

Oh I thought of another reason.

Maybe the kid was a Nikolai Volkoff fan ;)

[John Kochtoston]

Oh I thought of another reason.

Maybe the kid was a Nikolai Volkoff fan ;)

I see your Nikolai Volkoff and raise you a ...
http://www.wrestleinfo.com/Img87.png

Dude even had his name legally changed, and not (just) for TM protection, either. He just thought Nikita Koloff sounded better than Scott Simpson. He's probably right.

[StoopTroup]

I see your Nikolai Volkoff and raise you a ...
http://www.wrestleinfo.com/Img87.png

Dude even had his name legally changed, and not (just) for TM protection, either. He just thought Nikita Koloff sounded better than Scott Simpson. He's probably right.

My Skandor Akbar is worth many more camels.

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pictures/s/skandorakbar/02.jpg

[John Kochtoston]

My Skandor Akbar is worth many more camels.

http://www.oklafan.com/imageresize.php?w=180&h=240&pic=image/bank/skandor_akbar.jpg

Heh, says the dude who's "job title" is listed as CEO, Devastation, Inc. :D

[jkjsooner]

About a year or two ago I saw a CCCP shirt at Target. I commented to my wife that you can tell times have changed and the years have passed when you see a shirt like that at Target.

It's just the retro thing. It was in the same section that had the Atari shirts...

As for comparing it to the swastika, I think there is a difference. While the Soviet Union did some terrible things (especially under Stalin) they're more associated with a political movement than the murders of their own citizens. The Nazis are almost entirely associated with the attempted extermination of the Jews. The hatred of the Jews was one of the main focal points for the Nazi regime. Killing Russians wasn't the focal point for the Russian Revolution.

[King Crimson]

It's just the retro thing. It was in the same section that had the Atari shirts...

As for comparing it to the swastika, I think there is a difference. While the Soviet Union did some terrible things (especially under Stalin) they're more associated with a political movement than the murders of their own citizens. The Nazis are almost entirely associated with the attempted extermination of the Jews. The hatred of the Jews was one of the main focal points for the Nazi regime. Killing Russians wasn't the focal point for the Russian Revolution.

this is the difference.

"i like her, she brings me into the 21st Century with it's meaningless logos and ironic veneration of despots."

--mark in the british comedy peep show.

[OklahomaTuba]

Stalin did a great job killing lots of joos as well.

And never mind he probably had twice the number of people killed than Hitler had.

But the worst of all of them IMO is Mao. Thank GOD the mushy headed progressives haven't started making him a fashion icon, yet!

Its probably just a matter of time though, "progressives" have hard-ons for dictators & mass murderers for what ever reason.

[Scott D]

Well Mao wasn't a symbol of the 80s the way the Hammer and Sickle was.

[OklahomaTuba]

I blame Red Dawn for all of this.

[Scott D]

Well Mao wasn't a symbol of the 80s the way the Hammer and Sickle was.

[OklahomaTuba]

I'd scream Wolverines, but I f'kn hate Meatchicken too much to do it.

[The Remnant]

Communism killed more people than Hitler could ever imagine by a wide margin.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Communism killed more people than Hitler could ever imagine by a wide margin.your figures sound suspect.

[Scott D]

Communism killed more people than Hitler could ever imagine by a wide margin.

You could have stopped at Stalin's paranoia and need for absolute control killed more people than Hitler could imagine by a wide margin, but why split hairs.

[Curly Bill]

Yeah, but Communism ranks higher on the "cool meter."

edit...this was supposed to follow turd's post...
...before Scott D so rudely interrupted. :P

[NYC Poke]

I was watching Big Brother the other night (it's summer).

No excuse.


BTW, while the world cup was going on, I bought a CCCP socker jersey, just for kicks (ha!). I wore it around for a while until I noticed I was getting some pretty ugly looks from the Polish book store* next door. Seems they're not too big on commies.


*I've been tempted to go in and ask if they have any joke books.

[The Remnant]

Some people may have family members that were killed by the Soviets. Some of those individuals may even be on this board right now. You don't think they have a right to be offended?

[Curly Bill]

Here's my solution: if you see someone wearing "Soviet issue" clothing, assume they're a spy and shoot them. A proud nation will give you thanks.

[The Remnant]

Actually I would like to give him the old knuckle sandwich.

[NYC Poke]

Some people may have family members that were killed by the Soviets. Some of those individuals may even be on this board right now. You don't think they have a right to be offended?

I do, which is why I stopped wearing it. When I saw it in the window, it struck a note of nostalgia in me, taking me back to simpler times when it was just US v. USSR and you knew which accents the Bond villains would have. I wore the shirt for cartoonish laughs, the same way someone might choose to identify with the Darth Vader persona (as Dick Cheney famously did). It was also kind of fun getting the odd looks from tourists. It was my proximity to people for whom these sorts of things were all to real that made it not fun any more.

Thankfully, I've still got my Pol Pot costume.

[badger]

Someday, we might be able to look back at those times of cold war and world war and laugh... we'll have Reagan's Star Wars up and running and the fear of getting nuked back to the stone age will seem ancient. The thought of people being mistreated because of their race or religion will seem so old-fashioned and medieval. The mention of a brutal dictator having the audacity to murder his fellow countrymen (and women and children) will be brutally ridiculous to fathom.

Till then... only broadcast those type of symbols if you're prepared to get punched.

[Scott D]

Some people may have family members that were killed by the Soviets. Some of those individuals may even be on this board right now. You don't think they have a right to be offended?

Does that mean that I have to give back the autographed Igor Larionov USSR jersey?

[Scott D]

Yeah, but Communism ranks higher on the "cool meter."

edit...this was supposed to follow turd's post...
...before Scott D so rudely interrupted. :P

That poster is such a bastard, no respect for anyone. However has he lasted on this board for so long? ;)

[OU Adonis]

Stalin killed 20,000,000 or so of his own people. It was ok at the time tho because he was our ally.

[NYC Poke]

Someday, we might be able to look back at those times of cold war and world war and laugh... we'll have Reagan's Star Wars up and running and the fear of getting nuked back to the stone age will seem ancient. The thought of people being mistreated because of their race or religion will seem so old-fashioned and medieval. The mention of a brutal dictator having the audacity to murder his fellow countrymen (and women and children) will be brutally ridiculous to fathom.

Till then... only broadcast those type of symbols if you're prepared to get punched.


meh. The world is filled with enough real dangers without having to feel threatened by symbols of a dead empire. If it is communism qua communism that people feel threatened/enraged by, there are actual communists here, though they're about as threatening as Baylor with Robert Griffin on the bench.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Does that mean that I have to give back the autographed Igor Larionov USSR jersey?

Does that mean I have to change my avatar?

[badger]

meh. The world is filled with enough real dangers without having to feel threatened by symbols of a dead empire.

Feel threatened? No, no... there's nothing threatening about symbols... sticks and stones, yadda yadda.

I'm just sayin' that you should be prepared to take a punch if you're gonna take your first amendment right.

I can go south of the (Oklahoma) border and wear Uncle Sam garb to a USA-Mexico soccer match while trying to start a "Deport the illegals!" chant.

I can... but I will probably get punched... multiple times... might be fatal... but I can.

[NYC Poke]

Feel threatened? No, no... there's nothing threatening about symbols... sticks and stones, yadda yadda.

I'm just sayin' that you should be prepared to take a punch if you're gonna take your first amendment right.

I can go south of the (Oklahoma) border and wear Uncle Sam garb to a USA-Mexico soccer match while trying to start a "Deport the illegals!" chant.

I can... but I will probably get punched... multiple times... might be fatal... but I can.


Your act would be deliberately provocative in a way that a soccer jersey is not.

[Scott D]

Does that mean I have to change my avatar?

obviously, your avatar should clearly be Brock Lesnar ;)

[KC//CRIMSON]

obviously, your avatar should clearly be Brock Lesnar ;)

When Lesnar's laid out cold on the Octagon canvas, that will be my new avatar.

[Half a Hundred]

No one has legitimately used the hammer and sickle as a means of terrorizing groups within the United States?

The only people who would be threatened by what the hammer and sickle represents would generally be powerful enough not to concern themselves with such things?

Those tend to be big differences. Also, Soviets weren't as snappy dressers in Nazis, so they made much worse movie villains, even so much that we made movies about the commies being good guys against the Nazis ;)

[badger]

if there hasn't been one started, i'm going to wander over to general sports forum and start a brock lesnar thread :D

[JohnnyMack]

No one has legitimately used the hammer and sickle as a means of terrorizing groups within the United States?

The only people who would be threatened by what the hammer and sickle represents would generally be powerful enough not to concern themselves with such things?

Those tend to be big differences. Also, Soviets weren't as snappy dressers in Nazis, so they made much worse movie villains, even so much that we made movies about the commies being good guys against the Nazis ;)

That's actually a pretty good flick. If you're talking about Enemy at the Gates.

[Half a Hundred]

That's actually a pretty good flick. If you're talking about Enemy at the Gates.

I still like what happened in real life better than the movie version - Vassily and the kraut are out in the woods, have been there for days, when out of amusement, Vassily sticks his helmet up, thinking that the German would never give up his position. Out of sheer desperation, he does, and ten seconds later, we have a dead German sniper.

Very anticlimactic, very human, and terrible filmmaking.

[NYC Poke]

Those tend to be big differences. Also, Soviets weren't as snappy dressers in Nazis, so they made much worse movie villains, even so much that we made movies about the commies being good guys against the Nazis ;)

Hey man, the Russians didn't have Hugo Boss dressing them. Cut 'em a little slack.

[Half a Hundred]

Hey man, the Russians didn't have Hugo Boss dressing them. Cut 'em a little slack.

It was almost if the Nazis were trying to be Hollywood film villains from the start - impeccable costumes, grand ambitions, spectacular parades, high technology/special effects and hostile toward all Jewish people in the world.

All the Russians had going for them were the best film directors in the world at the time, and they couldn't do anything for want of food.

[NYC Poke]

It was almost if the Nazis were trying to be Hollywood film villains from the start - impeccable costumes, grand ambitions, spectacular parades, high technology/special effects and hostile toward all Jewish people in the world.

All the Russians had going for them were the best film directors in the world at the time, and they couldn't do anything for want of food.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

(sfw - That Mitchell and Webb Look clip)

[Sooner_Havok]

Don't drink Fanta!

[jkjsooner]

Its probably just a matter of time though, "progressives" have hard-ons for dictators & mass murderers for what ever reason.


That's a pretty big generalization isn't it? For every guy with a Che Guevara shirt I can find you a guy was a swastika tattoo. The difference is that I don't make huge generalizations every time I seen someone on the fringe.

I'd also like to add that we have plenty of people still flying the stars and bars. I understand that to them it's more of a symbol of cultural heritage (and I'm okay with that) but if we're going to condemn anyone who wears symbols from groups with a troubled human rights record then let's point the finger at them too.

[Frozen Sooner]

The power of a symbol lies in both intent and interpretation.

The intent of someone wearing a swastika is pretty plain, and the interpretation of the vast majority is also pretty easy to anticipate.

The intent of someone wearing a confederate flag is sometimes ambiguous, while the interpretation of most is easy to anticipate.

The hammer and sickle? I can certainly see how some people would find it really offensive, just as some find the Che t-shirts pretty offensive. Intent is a little harder to discern (unless it's just misplaced hipsterism.)

I'd probably advise someone to not wear it-or really any symbol that is as charged historically.

[King Crimson]

when people burn an "American flag" they are the quintessential of irrationality and plain evil.

[Sooner_Havok]

when people burn an "American flag" they are the quintessential of irrationality and plain evil.

Umm, I had to burn a flag once. Was that bad? Them damned Boy Scouts made me do it!

[JohnnyMack]

when people burn an "American flag" they are the quintessential of irrationality and plain evil.

Burning a flag is a right. Just as you have the right to wear the hammer and sickle. My point was only that most people who wear it are ignorant to its history.

[The Remnant]

I remember several years ago in Little Saigon in Orange County, California, a Vietnamese man put up the flag of communist Vietnam on the wall of his business. All hell broke loose. Hundreds of Vietnamese protesters surrounded his business. It seems like the most ardent anti-communists are the ones who actually know what it means to live under communist rule.

[SicEmBaylor]

That's a pretty big generalization isn't it? For every guy with a Che Guevara shirt I can find you a guy was a swastika tattoo. The difference is that I don't make huge generalizations every time I seen someone on the fringe.

I'd also like to add that we have plenty of people still flying the stars and bars. I understand that to them it's more of a symbol of cultural heritage (and I'm okay with that) but if we're going to condemn anyone who wears symbols from groups with a troubled human rights record then let's point the finger at them too.

Actually, very few people fly the stars and bars and even fewer would recognize it if they saw it. Forgive me for assuming you're totally ignorant but my guess is that you are referring to the naval jack version of the battle flag. I don't think you'd recognize the stars and bars if it was fluttering in your face.

Also to compare that flag with either the swastika or sickle and hammer burns my Confederate ***.

[Curly Bill]

The South will rise again! :D

[Frozen Sooner]

Actually, very few people fly the stars and bars and even fewer would recognize it if they saw it. Forgive me for assuming you're totally ignorant but my guess is that you are referring to the naval jack version of the battle flag. I don't think you'd recognize the stars and bars if it was fluttering in your face.

Also to compare that flag with either the swastika or sickle and hammer burns my Confederate ***.

Like I said, intent and interpretation.

[MrJimBeam]

It doesn't surprise me we have idiots walking around with CCCP t-shirts on. Our media and academia have for a 100 years ignored or dismissed the millions jailed, tortured and murdered by this "failed human experiment".

[Mixer!]

misplaced hipsterism

http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2009/20090503_redshirt0503.jpg

"you rang?"

[Mixer!]

If it is communism qua communism that people feel threatened/enraged by, there are actual communists here, though they're about as threatening as Baylor with Robert Griffin on the bench.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2009/20090213_dems.jpg

:pop:

[The Remnant]

Russia may have killed millions, but their heart was in the right place.

[Curly Bill]

Russia may have killed millions, but their heart was in the right place.


...and socialism is back in vogue. ;)

[jkjsooner]

Actually, very few people fly the stars and bars and even fewer would recognize it if they saw it. Forgive me for assuming you're totally ignorant but my guess is that you are referring to the naval jack version of the battle flag. I don't think you'd recognize the stars and bars if it was fluttering in your face.

Also to compare that flag with either the swastika or sickle and hammer burns my Confederate ***.

I stand corrected about the flag but my point is still valid.

Sorry your Confederate *** is burned but to many people it represents racial injustice and hatred.

[NYC Poke]

I remember several years ago in Little Saigon in Orange County, California, a Vietnamese man put up the flag of communist Vietnam on the wall of his business. All hell broke loose. Hundreds of Vietnamese protesters surrounded his business. It seems like the most ardent anti-communists are the ones who actually know what it means to live under communist rule.


This goes to Froze's point about symbols and interpretation. What the Vietnamese experienced had little to do with communism. It had far more to do with geopolitics, for our part, and nationalism and anti-colonialism, for their part.

[JohnnyMack]

http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kkk-confed-flag-425x285.jpg

[KC//CRIMSON]

http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kkk-confed-flag-425x285.jpg

What posse is that?

[The Remnant]

I have taught a number of Vietnamese students. I think their parents might disagree with you Poke,

[NYC Poke]

I have taught a number of Vietnamese students. I think their parents might disagree with you Poke,

I don't doubt for a minute that their misery was very real, but I doubt very seriously that their suffering had anything to do with Lenin and Marx.

[Jacie]

It was almost if the Nazis were trying to be Hollywood film villains from the start - impeccable costumes, grand ambitions, spectacular parades, high technology/special effects and hostile toward all Jewish people in the world.

All the Russians had going for them were the best film directors in the world at the time, and they couldn't do anything for want of food.

Yeah, we hate em or is that hated them but ya still gotta admit, those black SS unis were pretty cool.

And yes, Stalin used people the way everyone else used bullets . . . they were cheap and expendable . . . but he stopped the Nazis cold. The casualty figures for the entire Allied campaign to retake Italy, France and the rest of Western Europe pale in comparison to individual battles on the Eastern Front.

[Sooner_Havok]

What posse is that?

Local 212

[Curly Bill]

The Local 212, pffffft...those guys are pansies.

[John Kochtoston]

Does that mean that I have to give back the autographed Igor Larionov USSR jersey?

Yes. Please return it, immediately, to the following address:

John Kochtoston
Cabana 1 (not 6)
California Racquet Club
Los Angeles, CA 90001

[Sooner_Havok]

The Local 212, pffffft...those guys are pansies.

I know, we totally p3nwed those guys at the last nation wide posse round-up.

[OU Adonis]

Yeah, we hate em or is that hated them but ya still gotta admit, those black SS unis were pretty cool.

And yes, Stalin used people the way everyone else used bullets . . . they were cheap and expendable . . . but he stopped the Nazis cold. The casualty figures for the entire Allied campaign to retake Italy, France and the rest of Western Europe pale in comparison to individual battles on the Eastern Front.

He still killed millions of his own BEFORE the Germans did. He killed more of his own people than Hitler ever could of dreamed of.

[Rhino]

FWIW, just a couple months ago, around the time their song "Do You Realize" was being considered for the title of "the official state rock song," a Flaming Lips bandmember wore a hammer/sickle t-shirt into the Oklahoma capitol and set-off a firestorm of righteous indignation among several legislators. Note that the shirt-wearing and the firestorm of fake outrage were more than one month apart.

[Sooner_Havok]

So, is this bad and evil, cause I thought it was pretty funny.

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/commie/leninade.jpg

[bluedogok]

Yes. Please return it, immediately, to the following address:

John Kochtoston
Cabana 1 (not 6)
California Racquet Club
Los Angeles, CA 90001
You can charge it on the Underhill account.....

[Jacie]

He still killed millions of his own BEFORE the Germans did. He killed more of his own people than Hitler ever could of dreamed of.

WWII historians acknowledge that as one of many reasons the Nazis were able to penetrate so far into Soviet territory in the first months of Operation Barbarrossa, because Stalin had purged the military of most of it's officers prior to the outbreak of war. It seems prior to the war, the Germans and Russians had actually trained together and traded information on things like aircraft and armored vehicle design. Officers who attended any of the training sessions or had in their possession manuals from them developed a fatal case of lead poisoning . . .

[Half a Hundred]

WWII historians acknowledge that as one of many reasons the Nazis were able to penetrate so far into Soviet territory in the first months of Operation Barbarrossa, because Stalin had purged the military of most of it's officers prior to the outbreak of war. It seems prior to the war, the Germans and Russians had actually trained together and traded information on things like aircraft and armored vehicle design. Officers who attended any of the training sessions or had in their possession manuals from them developed a fatal case of lead poisoning . . .

I like how people characterize World War I as being the trench war, and that it had somehow been surpassed during World War II. These people apparently never studied the Eastern Front, nor the Sino-Japanese War.

And yes, the Soviet Union won World War II in Europe. They couldn't do it without the Western Allies, but our logistical support was much more important than the actual combat. The most important theater of combat that the UK (and US to a lesser extent) primarily participated in was North Africa, as it prevented Germany from getting control of the Suez, Middle Eastern oil, and an amphibious invasion of the Ukraine and South Russia from the Black Sea (which there would have been no stopping).

Overlord and the subsequent liberation of France certainly were important, but the war was over for the most part by that point, as Germany was exhausting its energy resources, resorting to cracked coal to power its petroleum-based weaponry. The Soviet Union still had a near inexhaustible number of human waves to shove at the German lines, and Hitler got more erratic by the day. The re-opening of the Western Front did more to ensure that Germany wasn't getting nukes than anything - our strategic bombing campaigns did more actual damage on their war-making efforts than anything on the ground.

[SicEmBaylor]

The thing is the peeps that wear these shirts aren't smart enough to know what they symbolize, they just think they're being cool.

In some cases that's true, but I actually believe they are smart enough to know exactly what they're doing. I see a LOT of UT students in Austin wearing these sorts of shirts, and I know they're popular among college students all around the country. I think these people genuinely admire these communist SOBs.

[SicEmBaylor]

meh. The world is filled with enough real dangers without having to feel threatened by symbols of a dead empire. If it is communism qua communism that people feel threatened/enraged by, there are actual communists here, though they're about as threatening as Baylor with Robert Griffin on the bench.

So, if someone were to casually walk around wearing a swastika flag or a shirt honoring Hitler or Himmler then nobody should get upset because it's just a dead empire?

Actually, I shouldn't say I'm offended by any of this. Few things offend me, but the audacity of some people annoys the ever loving bejesus out of me.

[King Crimson]

i'm offended that some people would actually *pretend to be Nazis* in paintball re-enactments.

get a grip Sic. capitalism and the free-flow of capital and symbols are just a part of the beauty of open societies. the co-optation (or recuperation, for those of you with a mind for books) of symbols is proof of the total scope of the horizon of capitalism as a system of meaning. the image of Che is dead as a political symbol the minute it goes on the *commodified* T-shirt, despite the current Obama=socialism paranoia.

either you (plural) are for the free market of ideas or want to tell other people what is proper or moral or is the "essence" of being a TRUE American....the massive contradiction at the heart of contemporary conservatism. if there is a market and consumers for those t-shirts, then that's all that's holy about free market economics, no?

some of y'all cold warriors and Reagan nostalgics need to wake up to the present instead of "philosophizing" about the past desperately seeking some authority in hackneyed versions of historically abused versions of the "Framers", the clear moral certitude of WW II and the heroic 80's.