Cap-and-Trade bill in for rough water in Senate

[soonerscuba]

You said something about devining the thoughts of the founders being funny? Yet you would appear to be telling us about their view as to the nature of federal govt?Not at all. I said that their views weren't monolithic, and even if they were, they would have very little basis in modern policy.

I just reject the motion we started with a perfect government and have been slowly destroying it. Basically, I think that people who describe themselves as constitutionalists or originalists are simply engaging in political cherrypicking and hiding behind the founders because there is plenty in the original documents that just about everybody can agree didn't need to be there, even to a greater degree when looked at with a pragmatic and modern lens.

[yermom]

the founders created something flexible, yet hard to change

they knew the population was mainly idiots that can be selfish and easily swayed en masse...

[Sooner_Havok]

...and yet they're seemingly less qualified to comment on the thoughts of the founders?

Funny how that works isn't it? That is why I don't read anything. It is also why I only watch Michael Bay movies.

[Curly Bill]

they knew the population was mainly idiots that can be selfish and easily swayed en masse...

No kidding, we saw that this past November. :O :(

[Curly Bill]

Funny how that works isn't it?

Indeed it is. I enjoy how some of the high minded types on here lay claim to powers that the mere mortals of the board can't even begin to possess. ;)

[Sooner_Havok]

No kidding, we saw that this past November. :O :(

Yup, 50 million idiots still voted for McCain, disheartening isn't it

:D

[Sooner_Havok]

Indeed it is. I enjoy how some of the high minded types on here lay claim to powers that the mere mortals of the board can't even begin to possess. ;)

:gary:

[Curly Bill]

Yup, 50 million idiots still voted for McCain, disheartening isn't it

:D

He wasn't a great choice, but still:

war hero > community organizer


:D

[Sooner_Havok]

He wasn't a great choice, but still:

war hero > community organizer


:D

I voted against the last war hero to run too. :confused:

[The Remnant]

Damned those founding fathers. They were just a bunch of angry white males.

[ndpruitt03]

Yup, 50 million idiots still voted for McCain, disheartening isn't it

:D

If McCain were elected we would be going through the same bs right now. When it comes down to it right now the republican and democrat parties are the same.

[Sooner_Havok]

Damned those founding fathers. They were just a bunch of angry white males.

http://www.onbeingablacklawyer.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/black-power.jpg

[Curly Bill]

Damned those founding fathers. They were just a bunch of angry white males.

You can't divine their thoughts, so how can you know they were angry? You have to leave it to our more enlightened liberal brethren to tell us what the founders were thinking or feeling.

[Sooner_Havok]

If McCain were elected we would be going through the same bs right now. When it comes down to it right now the republican and democrat parties are the same.

I say, I say, I say, what's your point son?

[Sooner_Havok]

You can't devine their thoughts, so how can you know they were angry? You have to leave it to our more enlightened liberal brethren to tell us what the founders were thinking or feeling.

They wanted some hard rock candy for their kids, and some gingham for their wives.

[Curly Bill]

They wanted some hard rock candy for their kids, and some gingham for their wives.

As you are one of our enlightened liberal brethren I of course must take your word for it. Thank you sir for enlightening me. ;)

[Sooner_Havok]

As you are one of our enlightened liberal brethren I of course must take your word for it. Thank you sir for enlightening me. ;)

You are very welcome my ignorant and confused conservative chum. ;)

[The Remnant]

Unemployment rate 9.5% and rising. Change you can believe in. Can I interest you in another stimulus package? Do you feel stimulated yet?

[Curly Bill]

You are very welcome my ignorant and confused conservative chum. ;)

See, that's the way to just come out and say how you libs see the rest of society. It's so much better than hiding it, and just talking down to us thinking we'll be too dumb to recognize it.

[Sooner_Havok]

See, that's the way to just come out and say how you libs see the rest of society. It's so much better than hiding it, and just talking down to us thinking we'll be too dumb to recognize it.

I know you embrace your dumbnatude friend, no point in dancing around the subject. :D

[Curly Bill]

Unemployment rate 9.5% and rising. Change you can believe in. Can I interest you in another stimulus package? Do you feel stimulated yet?

Oh no see, Obama hasn't had time to undo the damage done by the previous administration, you have to give it more time. :D

Hey guys, how was that for sounding like a high minded lib? :P

[yermom]

i think the fact that he qualified "conservative" with "ignorant" and "confused" means he's talking about you, not all conservatives ;)

[OU_Sooners75]

You're confusing science with the media coverage of science. The latter is far more often than not a bunch of BS written by people who know jack about how science works and read by people who know nothing about how science works. That's a bad combination.


So tell me, how does science work exactly?

Trial and error isn't?

[Curly Bill]

i think the fact that he qualified "conservative" with "ignorant" and "confused" means he's talking about you, not all conservatives ;)

Because you can divine his thoughts?

So, why don't you tell us what the founders were thinking, oh wise and enlightened one.

edit...oh wait: ;)

[hellogoodbye]

manbearpig!

[Sooner_Havok]

Because you can divine his thoughts?

So, why don't you tell us what the founders were thinking, oh wise and enlightened one.

Dude, he's read stuff. Better watch out :D

[The Remnant]

Hey Sooner Havok, the liberal experiment called California has failed my friend.

[Sooner_Havok]

Hey Sooner Havok, the liberal experiment called California has failed my friend.

What in ****s name are you talking about?

[Curly Bill]

Dude, he's read stuff. Better watch out :D

Hell, I bet he even listens to NPR and stuff.

[Sooner_Havok]

Hell, I bet he even listens to NPR and stuff.

Bitch, he's got their tote bag!

[ndpruitt03]

Hey Sooner Havok, the liberal experiment called California has failed my friend.

The nation is headed that way though.

[yermom]

Because you can divine his thoughts?

So, why don't you tell us what the founders were thinking, oh wise and enlightened one.

edit...oh wait: ;)

if you are referring to my previous post, it's largely based on this:

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

[hellogoodbye]

I for one, welcome our new plant food overlords!

[Sooner_Havok]

I for one, welcome our new Canadian overlords!

Stop stealing my material n00b!
:D

[Curly Bill]

The nation is headed that way though.

No man, ya gotta give Obama time.

Soon as he gets back from fixing up Africa he'll solve our problems.

[Sooner_Havok]

No man, ya gotta give Obama time.

Soon as he gets back from fixing up Africa he'll solve our problems.

Is Obama bringing them poor little African children some DDT?

[Curly Bill]

if you are referring to my previous post, it's largely based on this:

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

...and I was of course continuing to point out that one of the usual mouthpieces for the liberal side of things on here tried to say we couldn't possibly divine the thoughts of the founders.

I guess you're saying we can read their papers and things and do just that.

You guys should huddle up and get your act together. :P

[Curly Bill]

Is Obama bringing them poor little African children some DDT?

No, but I got a kick out of the media pointing out how the Africans were so proud to be welcoming home a "native son." :D

[Sooner_Havok]

...and I was of course continuing to point out that one of the usual mouthpieces for the liberal side of things on here tried to say we couldn't possibly divine the thoughts of the founders.

I guess you're saying we can read their papers and things and do just that.

You guys should huddle up and get your act together. :P

Which side am I a mouthpiece for again, I always seem to forget.

[Curly Bill]

Which side am I a mouthpiece for again, I always seem to forget.

Not you, the other mouthpiece. :P

[Sooner_Havok]

No, but I got a kick out of the media pointing out how the Africans were so proud to be welcoming home a "native son." :D

Damn it, I thought he was from Indonesia. ****, now I am confused. Next your going to tell me he is really a secret papist right? If he ever meets with the pope, I may explode!

[yermom]

...and I was of course continuing to point out that one of the usual mouthpieces for the liberal side of things on here tried to say we couldn't possibly divine the thoughts of the founders.

I guess you're saying we can read their papers and things and do just that.

You guys should huddle up and get your act together. :P

i'm not really a lib mouthpiece. i just don't trust politicians in general. and i really get the feeling that one side of this issue is about politics and the other is about science

start talking about guns or abortion and i'm about as "conservative" as they come

[Curly Bill]

i'm not really a lib. i just don't trust politicians in general. and i really get the feeling that one side of this issue is about politics and the other is about science

start talking about guns or abortion and i'm about as "conservative" as they come

Guns are cool. :D

[Sooner_Havok]

Not you, the other mouthpiece. :P

Oh, ok.

[Sooner_Havok]

Guns are cool. :D

They sure are. Cept I have to take a damned safety course to get my hunting license now. Bastards and there gun control.

[Curly Bill]

Damn it, I thought he was from Indonesia. ****, now I am confused. Next your going to tell me he is really a secret papist right? If he ever meets with the pope, I may explode!

Well, now you're being silly. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, Obama is the antichrist. If they ever meet the whole world will explode.

[Sooner_Havok]

Well, now you're being silly. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, Obama is the antichrist. If they ever meet the whole world will explode.

vicar :P

[Curly Bill]

They sure are. Cept I have to take a damned safety course to get my hunting license now. Bastards and there gun control.

That's what you get for supporting the current marxist regime.

[Sooner_Havok]

That's what you get for supporting the current marxist regime.

Damn it, they told me to take ma safety class 4 years ago! I love going hunting, but since I was born after some arbitrary date I have to take a gun safety course.

You know I can't even go to H&H and shoot? Bastages

[yermom]

why can't you go to H&H?

[The Remnant]

I think the current administration is more reflective of Chicago "thug" politics.

[Sooner_Havok]

why can't you go to H&H?

Something about I am not allowed to even shoot ma guns till I take the safety classes.
I don't know if they would check on something like that or not though.

One of these days I am going to get that taken care of. Hopefully before November soes I can go dove hunting.

[Curly Bill]

No killing dove! They help combat global warming!

...and now we've come full circle!

My work is done. :D

[yermom]

i've never heard anything like that. is it only for rifles or what?

unless it's new, i guess, but they never asked me for anything. they didn't like my grandpa's reloads though...

[Sooner_Havok]

No killing dove! They help combat global warming!

...and now we've come full circle!

My work is done. :D

Damn it!

Pick up the gun!

[Sooner_Havok]

i've never heard anything like that. is it only for rifles or what?

unless it's new, i guess, but they never asked me for anything. they didn't like my grandpa's reloads though...

I was born in 83, so there is some law that states I have to take a gun safety course before I can get my hunting license, I know that for sure.

The not being able to shoot at the ranges, I think I heard that somewhere. Not sure if it is true or not. To be honest, normally when I want to go shoot I just go out in the country. That said, I ain't stupid enough to shoot anything without a proper license. I have had game rangers come up to me in the middle of no where before.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I was born in 83ahhh....so many questions answered...

[Sooner_Havok]

http://business.theatlantic.com/waxman%20markey%20and%20GDP.png

[OklahomaTuba]

http://business.theatlantic.com/waxman%20markey%20and%20GDP.pngGood luck with that.

If this passes, I already hear two refineries that will shut down in the region.

Care to take a guess what the impact that will be to our economy and standard of living???

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

We'll show those dirty oil companies, and car companies, and Americans. What makes them think they should be able to enjoy life and prosper, anyway?

[Sooner_Havok]

Good luck with that.

If this passes, I already hear two refineries that will shut down in the region.

Care to take a guess what the impact that will be to our economy and standard of living???

according to you or financial experts? Cause I know the two answers are very different.

[Sooner_Havok]

We'll show those dirty oil companies, and car companies, and Americans. What makes them think they should be able to enjoy life and prosper, anyway?

That's right, they hate Americans. They hate their way of life, and want to destroy it.

The very same way that Republicans hate America and want others to hate America too. That is why they insist on bombing the **** out of other peoples across the world.

So everyone hates America, democrats and Republicans alike. Happy?

[OklahomaRed]

I know it's O'Reilly, but this is actually a good read. Cap and Trade is to the Democrats what big oil profits was to the Republicans. Read and see where all the bread crumbs lead back to. :mad:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,532663,00.html

[OklahomaTuba]

That is why they insist on bombing the **** out of other peoples across the world.Those evil rethuglikkkans and their murderous bombing of brown people in WW2, Korea, Vietnam...

Oh, wait...

[OklahomaTuba]

The science is settled......


Global Warming: Scientists' Best Predictions May Be Wrong

"In a nutshell, theoretical models cannot explain what we observe in the geological record," said oceanographer Gerald Dickens, a co-author of the study and professor of Earth science at Rice University. "There appears to be something fundamentally wrong with the way temperature and carbon are linked in climate models."http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090714124956.htm


If only there was some heat source that you could trace this to.
It would have to be massive, though. On the order of our own sun....

[mdklatt]

It would have to be massive, though. On the order of our own sun....

I'm sure you can use your Google University science degree and find a graph showing that solar output has been increasing for the past several decades.

[Sooner_Havok]

Those evil rethuglikkkans and their murderous bombing of brown people in WW2, Korea, Vietnam...

Oh, wait...

Ah, someone doesn't like broad over generalizations. Who'd of thunk the guy with the widest brush stroke don't like the paint roller.:D

Shesh, you try to show that Republicans hate America just as much as Democrats and the guy takes offense.

[mdklatt]

I'm sure you can use your Google University science degree and find a graph showing that solar output has been increasing for the past several decades.

And while you're at it, maybe you should actually read the article (http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ngeo578.pdf) that you're talking about. It says that there are unknown feedbacks that could make warming even worse than what the current models are predicting.

There's already plenty of evidence that the latest forecasts are wrong, but they're wrong in the opposite direction of what you want to believe. We're already seeing the "worst case" scenarios of various predictions from just a few years ago coming true.

We don't know for sure what's going to happen if we keep increasing atmospheric GHG concentrations. The sensible response would be to, you know, stop increasing GHG concentrations.

[Okla-homey]

All I know is it was called "Global Warming" until that was de-bunked. Or something. Now pundits are calling it "Climate Change."

The developing world couldn't care less because they're working hard to join the developed world. Ditto the the Indians who have indicated as late as the recent G8 summit they aren't changing a dang thing about the way they do business. The CHICOM's ain't biting either.

Meanwhile, we're asked to pay taxes on our CO2 emissions to somehow help the situation, presumably by discouraging our use of carbon-based fuels. Amidst this horrid Obama economy. Wacky. You can't make this stuff up folks.

[Sooner_Havok]

the situation, presumably by discouraging our use of carbon-based fuels. Amidst this horrid Obama economy. Wacky. You can't make this stuff up folks.

Uh, I think you just did. That is of course unless the last guy, you know that fiscal conservative fella from Texas, handed over a pristine economy to Obama.

But I seem to remember something about a certain group saying the downturn in the economy hurt their guys chances. Hmmmmmmm.

[mdklatt]

All I know is it was called "Global Warming" until that was de-bunked. Or something. Now pundits are calling it "Climate Change."


Debunked only the minds of right wingers. It's called "climate change" because there are certified ****ing morons like the R politician who said "global warming" can be solved by finding some shade.



The developing world couldn't care less


Horse****. It's the developing world that's going to feel it more than industrialized countries, and they know that more than anybody. Are the Pacific Islands the developing world? Ask anybody there if they think it's a problem. Or anybody in the Sahel, which is being devastated by long-term drought.




Meanwhile, we're asked to pay taxes on our CO2 emissions to somehow help the situation, presumably by discouraging our use of carbon-based fuels.

Why should others have to pay for your pollution? Doesn't it bother you that the US government has been subsidizing oil prices for more than 50 years through our military involvement and foreign policy misadventures in the Middle East? Gasoline taxes don't even fund the Highway Department--their stated purpose--much less the cost of keeping a carrier battle group or three in the Persian Gulf. You're not a socialist, are you?

[OU Adonis]

Gary England thinks Global warming is bunk as well. Do you think he is a quack?

[Sooner_Havok]

Gary England thinks Global warming is bunk as well. Do you think he is a quack?

Michio Kaku thinks Global warming is true as well. Do you think he is a quack?

[OU Adonis]

Michio Kaku thinks Global warming is true as well. Do you think he is a quack?

I value a person who deals with climate and weather as his job over someone who's claim to fame is string theory.

[Sooner_Havok]

I value a person who deals with climate and weather as his job over someone who's claim to fame is string theory.

Right, cause any old Yokel can become a theoretical physicist.

Ok, how about Dr. Richard Alley?

[OU Adonis]

Right, cause any old Yokel can become a theoretical physicist.

Ok, how about Dr. Richard Alley?


Just because he is brilliant doesn't mean he knows more than someone who has devoted his life to weather.

We can throw names out all day. I am not sure how that proves anything.

[Curly Bill]

How about Kirstie Alley?

[Sooner_Havok]

Just because he is brilliant doesn't mean he knows more than someone who has devoted his life to weather.

We can throw names out all day. I am not sure how that proves anything.

Your probably right...

[OU Adonis]

How about Kirstie Alley?

How about that chick that was a part of that home invasion in OKC? Shes kinda hawt.

[Sooner_Havok]

Scientists agree human-induced global warming is real

While the harsh winter pounding many areas of North America and Europe seemingly contradicts the fact that global warming continues unabated, a new survey finds consensus among scientists about the reality of climate change and its likely cause.

A group of 3,146 earth scientists surveyed around the world overwhelmingly agree that in the past 200-plus years, mean global temperatures have been rising, and that human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures.

Peter Doran, University of Illinois at Chicago associate professor of earth and environmental sciences, along with former graduate student Maggie Kendall Zimmerman, conducted the survey late last year.

The findings appear today in the publication Eos, Transactions, American Geophysical Union.

In trying to overcome criticism of earlier attempts to gauge the view of earth scientists on global warming and the human impact factor, Doran and Kendall Zimmerman sought the opinion of the most complete list of earth scientists they could find, contacting more than 10,200 experts around the world listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments.

Experts in academia and government research centers were e-mailed invitations to participate in the on-line poll conducted by the website questionpro.com. Only those invited could participate and computer IP addresses of participants were recorded and used to prevent repeat voting. Questions used were reviewed by a polling expert who checked for bias in phrasing, such as suggesting an answer by the way a question was worded. The nine-question survey was short, taking just a few minutes to complete.

Two questions were key: have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels, and has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures.

About 90 percent of the scientists agreed with the first question and 82 percent the second.

In analyzing responses by sub-groups, Doran found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role. Petroleum geologists and meteorologists were among the biggest doubters, with only 47 and 64 percent respectively believing in human involvement. Doran compared their responses to a recent poll showing only 58 percent of the public thinks human activity contributes to global warming.

"The petroleum geologist response is not too surprising, but the meteorologists' is very interesting," he said. "Most members of the public think meteorologists know climate, but most of them actually study very short-term phenomenon."

He was not surprised, however, by the near-unanimous agreement by climatologists.

"They're the ones who study and publish on climate science. So I guess the take-home message is, the more you know about the field of climate science, the more you're likely to believe in global warming and humankind's contribution to it."

Doran and Kendall Zimmerman conclude that "the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes." The challenge now, they write, is how to effectively communicate this to policy makers and to a public that continues to mistakenly perceive debate among scientists.
http://www.uic.edu

;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Whatever Chrissie Hind(sp) of the Pretenders says is what's gotta be right...but hey, what does Paris Hilton think?

[Sooner_Havok]

Whatever Chrissie Hind(sp) of the Pretenders says is what's gotta be right...but hey, what does Paris Hilton think?

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Are you back on the PKs again?

[Curly Bill]

You got a problem with Chrissie Hynde?

[Sooner_Havok]

You got a problem with Chrissie Hynde?

I have no clue who the hell that is anyway.

[StoopTroup]

Pot gives some folks clarity.

[Curly Bill]

Chrissie Hynde, lead singer of the Pretenders
iBBr7vCC_pE

[Sooner_Havok]

My best guess is he was thinking of Brian May, lead guitarist for Queen, who got his Ph.D. in astrophysics back in 07 when I said "Right, cause any old Yokel can become a theoretical physicist."

But again, that is only a best guess.

[Sooner_Havok]

Pot gives some folks clarity.

I may need to try the stuff then.

[Okla-homey]

See below:


Debunked only the minds of right wingers. It's called "climate change" because there are certified ****ing morons like the R politician who said "global warming" can be solved by finding some shade.

I disagree. I think the namechange was calculated and deliberate because the notion of "global warming" took on a screwy negative connotation in the minds of far too many regular folks. Time for a brand change, especially after one too many wintertime global warming summits had to be cancelled because of blizzards

Horse****. It's the developing world that's going to feel it more than industrialized countries, and they know that more than anybody. Are the Pacific Islands the developing world? Ask anybody there if they think it's a problem. Or anybody in the Sahel, which is being devastated by long-term drought.

Even if we accept your proposition of inevitable doom, are you saying the quest for food, shelter and a reasonable quality of life for themselves and their children in the here and now is trumped in the minds of billions by some selfless desire to guard against some future potential catastrophe? Ever visited New Guinea, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh or even India? That's not to mention the bituminous coal smoke-belching Chinese in their efforts to provide a few hours per day of electricity outside of the Beijing metro area for billions of people. I respectfully suggest you Google "Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs."


Why should others have to pay for your pollution? Doesn't it bother you that the US government has been subsidizing oil prices for more than 50 years through our military involvement and foreign policy misadventures in the Middle East? Gasoline taxes don't even fund the Highway Department--their stated purpose--much less the cost of keeping a carrier battle group or three in the Persian Gulf. You're not a socialist, are you?

My pollution? Do you walk to work or ride a bike? Are you off the electrical grid at your house? As far how I feel about "subsidizing oil prices through military misadventures," what aspect of our culture's petroleum dependence can be cured by "just saying no" to use of dead dinosaurs? And if the answer it "not much," and you admit our way of life depends on fossil fuels to the same extent it depends on oxygen as it irefutably does for the foreseeable future, WTF is wrong with our military promoting our national interests by ensuring the flow? At least until we work out nuclear fusion for home and automotive use.;)

Look, I regret dependence on foreign oil for national security reasons, but skipping efforts to leverage new technologies to increase domestic production in exchange for this theoretical looniness is irresponsible and fatally idealistic.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You got a problem with Chrissie Hynde?She's out there, loony leftist, but can make some fine music! Hell, switch her out with Sotomayor.

[Sooner_Havok]

She's out there, loony leftist, but can make some fine music! Hell, switch her out with Sotomayor.

Wait, that's a she?

[Curly Bill]

Don't most of the leftist females look "masculine?"

[Sooner_Havok]

Don't most of the leftist females look "masculine?"

:eek:

[Curly Bill]

Seriously, think about it.

[Sooner_Havok]

Seriously, think about it.

http://www.vanityfair.com/images/magazine/2009/01/tina-fey-0901-01.jpg

I did.

[Curly Bill]

Apparently you don't know the rules on not posting "babe" pics. Some lawyer you're gonna be. :rolleyes:



:D

[Sooner_Havok]

Apparently you don't know the rules on not posting "babe" pics. Some lawyer you're gonna be. :rolleyes:



:D

This thread needs to be locked anyways, I won :D

[mdklatt]

My pollution? Do you walk to work or ride a bike? Are you off the electrical grid at your house? As far how I feel about "subsidizing oil prices through military misadventures," what aspect of our culture's petroleum dependence can be cured by "just saying no" to use of dead dinosaurs? And if the answer it "not much," and you admit our way of life depends on fossil fuels to the same extent it depends on oxygen as it irefutably does for the foreseeable future, WTF is wrong with our military promoting our national interests by ensuring the flow?

Our pollution, but I'm willing to pony up. Even excluding pollution, the true cost of gasoline is a hell of a lot more than $4/gallon. Everybody who drives fewer miles per tax dollar paid than you is subsidizing you. Sounds like distribution of wealth to me. Wanting universal health care is no better than burning an American flag, but apparently cheap gasoline is written into the Bill of Rights? Carbon/energy taxes are all about making you pay for your own mess. Yet the "party of personal responsibility" screeches like a pack of wild howler monkeys in opposition. Free market capitalists, my ***. Real capitalists recognize external costs.


Even if we accept your proposition of inevitable doom, are you saying the quest for food, shelter and a reasonable quality of life for themselves and their children in the here and now is trumped in the minds of billions by some selfless desire to guard against some future potential catastrophe?

This is all about food, shelter, water right now. The entire nation of Tuvalu is concerned that it isn't going to be around much longer. Where is "dry land" on Maslow's pyramid? Other Pacific islands are having their taro crops destroyed by saltwater intrusion. The government of the Maldives is looking to move the whole country lock, stock, and barrel. Australia and sub-Saharan Africa are being ravaged by long-term drought. Northern India is suffering an epic drought/heat wave at the moment. The loss of Himalayan glaciers threatens the water supplies of several billion people. You can bet the Indians and Chinese are paying attention to that. China wants to have the world's dominant renewable energy industry, both for domestic use and export. Nope, not everybody is as oblivious and short-sighted as we are.

[Okla-homey]

This is all about food, shelter, water right now. The entire nation of Tuvalu is concerned that it isn't going to be around much longer.

..."entire nation" of Tuvalu." :D All 32 Tuvulans. And their 16 pigs and 73 chickens.;)

C'mon man, Tuvalu is no Pacific paradise. It's a scattering of eight tiny flat coral rocks. They are almost entirely dependent on imported fuel and food. The handful of people who live there survive on wages sent home by relatives working abroad (sailors and phosphate miners).

By all means, lets all pay higher taxes just in case that helps insure those folks get to stay on their rock instead of moving to Australia or New Zealand as they've been invited to do by those governments.

[OklahomaTuba]

We're already seeing the "worst case" scenarios of various predictions from just a few years ago coming true.
Like?

[ndpruitt03]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090714124956.htm

Little article on how there is no science about CO2 and man made global warming from actual scientists.

"In a nutshell, theoretical models cannot explain what we observe in the geological record," said oceanographer Gerald Dickens, a co-author of the study and professor of Earth science at Rice University. "There appears to be something fundamentally wrong with the way temperature and carbon are linked in climate models."

[Okla-homey]

World's largest democracy gives "cap-and-tax" the middle finger.


India rebuffs US carbon demands
By James Lamont in New Delhi, James Fontanella-Khan in Mumbai and Daniel Dombey in Washington

Published: July 19 2009 19:27 | Last updated: July 19 2009 19:27

India on Sunday night rebuffed an appeal by Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, to embrace a low-carbon future in which the two countries would work together to devise new ways of consuming and producing energy.

Mrs Clinton, on a five-day visit to the country, said that low-carbon emissions would not jeopardise India’s high economic growth rates and its goal of lifting millions of people out of poverty. She offered a technological partnership to secure the fast growing nation’s energy supplies and help boost the livelihoods of its farmers.

“There is simply no case for the pressure that we, who have been among the lowest emissions per capita, face to actually reduce emissions,” Jairam Ramesh, India’s environment minister told Mrs Clinton. “And as if this pressure was not enough, we also face the threat of carbon tariffs on our exports to countries such as yours.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/741cc2f0-748f-11de-8ad5-00144feabdc0.html

[hellogoodbye]

..."entire nation" of Tuvalu." :D All 32 Tuvulans. And their 16 pigs and 73 chickens.;)

Dont forget the polar bears! http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1ea8233f-14da-4a44-b839-b71a9e5df868

Ah, the internet..
Sea levels rise and fall. Ice caps advance and retreat (and for a big chunk of this planet's history - didnt exist at all - to the great advantage of M Nature). Our brothers and sisters are our responsibility. Being good guardians of our planet is as well. With the acknowlagement that we have been messing with our environment since we left the cave, we recognize that it's a management challenge.

AGW is finally beginning to get played out. A few years ago, there was so much shouting down skeptics and dissenters (and the ever changing talking points memos), it was obvious that something was up. money...Which to me is sad, because there are plenty of reasons to be concerned about real pollution and its impact. Shaking the AGW boogeyman in peoples faces, because you either need to feel superior, or you want money, aint the way, bro's. Spending money on alternatives that will be more efficient than fossil fuels makes sense. I still say it wont happen until Peak happens. Blowing your wad for 200 years on the arrogance that we have that much influence on the planet's macro climate (via CO2 emissions of all things..larrrr), well that's nothing more than a socialist's dream. Fear=money

[OklahomaTuba]

World's largest democracy gives "cap-and-tax" the middle finger.
No worries Homey, the eco-marxists want us to pay for their emissions as well as ours....


Commerce Secretary Gary Locke said something amazing—U.S. consumers should pay for part of Chinese greenhouse-gas emissions. From Reuters:

“It’s important that those who consume the products being made all around the world to the benefit of America — and it’s our own consumption activity that’s causing the emission of greenhouse gases, then quite frankly Americans need to pay for that,” Commerce Secretary Gary Locke told the American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai.

The idea that rich-country consumers should pick up the tab for some of China’s industrial emissions has been gaining currency lately—but not from within the Obama administration. The argument is that many of China’s factories churn out cheap stuff for the West, not for domestic consumption, so those consumers are actually responsible for the emissions. China, of course, loves the idea.http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/07/17/commerce-secretary-americans-need-to-pay-for-chinese-emissions/

Obama: The Best President Goldman Sachs and the Chinese could buy.