An Objective Thread Discussing the Iran Situtation [Archive]

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soonerhubs

6/21/2009, 08:22 PM

I just figured this topic needs a fresh thread that's not bogged down by the Left/Right circle jerk we grow so tired of.

There are monumental events happening that I think warrant some objective discussion. There's this...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jGSJEAPs_r2T2wxsL5G3t4z-jajQD98VD96O0

Struggle among Iran's clerics bursts into the open
By NASSER KARIMI and MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN – 21 minutes ago
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — A backstage struggle among Iran's ruling clerics burst into the open Sunday when the government said it had arrested the daughter and other relatives of an ayatollah who is one of the country's most powerful men.
State media said four relatives of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani were later released, but the arrests appeared to be a clear warning from the hardline establishment to a cleric who may be aligning himself with the opposition.
Iran's state-owned Press TV reported Sunday night that Rafsanjani's daughter was still under arrest, citing an unnamed Iranian security official.
Tehran's streets fell mostly quiet for the first time since a bitterly disputed June 12 presidential election, but cries of "God is great!" echoed again from rooftops after dark, a sign of seething anger at a government crackdown that peaked with at least 10 protesters' deaths Saturday.
The killings drove the official death toll to at least 17 after a week of massive street demonstrations by protesters who say hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stole his re-election win. But searing images posted online — including gruesome video purporting to show the fatal shooting of a teenage girl — hinted the true toll may be higher.
Police and the feared Basij militia swarmed the streets of Tehran to prevent more protests and the government intensified a crackdown on independent media — expelling a BBC correspondent, suspending the Dubai-based network Al-Arabiya and detaining at least two local journalists for U.S. magazines.
English-language state television said an exile group known as the People's Mujahedeen had a hand in street violence and broadcast what it said were confessions of British-controlled agents in an indication that the government, vilifying the opposition, was ready to crack down even harder.
Opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi warned supporters of danger ahead, and said he would stand by the protesters "at all times." But in letters posted on his allies' Web sites Saturday and Sunday, he said he would "never allow anybody's life to be endangered because of my actions" and called for pursuing fraud claims through an independent board.
The former prime minister, a longtime loyalist of the Islamic government, also called the Basij and military "our brothers" and "protectors of our revolution and regime." He may be trying to constrain his followers' demands before they pose a mortal threat to Iran's quixotic system of limited democracy constrained by Shiite clerics, who have ultimate authority.
His chances of success within the system would be far higher if he has backers among those clerics.
In the clearest sign yet of a splintering among the ayatollahs, state media announced the arrests of Rafsanjani's relatives including his daughter Faezeh, a 46-year-old reformist politician vilified by hard-liners for her open support of Mousavi.
State media said Rafsanjani's relatives had been held for their own protection.
"That is a major escalation and ratchets up the conflict with Rafsanjani," said Michael Wahid Hanna, a regional affairs analyst with the Century Foundation, a New York think tank. "It really raises the stakes."
Rafsanjani heads the cleric-run Assembly of Experts, which can remove the supreme leader, the country's most powerful figure. He also chairs the Expediency Council, a body that arbitrates disputes between parliament and the unelected Guardian Council.
Rafsanjani and his family have been accused of corruption by Ahmadinejad. And the 75-year-old ayatollah was conspicuously absent Friday from an address by the country's supreme leader calling for national unity and siding with the president.
That fueled speculation that Rafsanjani, who has made no public comment since the election, may be working behind the scenes and favoring Mousavi.
The Assembly of Experts has not publicly reprimanded Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei since he succeeded Islamic Revolution founder Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989. But this crisis has rattled the once-untouchable stature of the supreme leader.
Protesters have openly defied his orders to leave the streets and witnesses said some shouted "Death to Khamenei!" at Saturday's demonstrations — a once unthinkable challenge.
At least some lower-ranking clergy also appeared to have broken with the supreme leader. Photos posted by a moderate conservative news Web site showed what appeared to be mullahs in brown robes and white turbans protesting alongside a crowd of young men, some wearing the green shirts or sashes symbolizing Mousavi's self-described "Green Wave" movement.
The images and others flooding out from Iran in recent days could not immediately be independently verified due to government restrictions on foreign media, who were banned from reporting on Tehran's streets.
Ahmadinejad appeared to be courting his own clerical support. State television showed him meeting with mullahs at the presidential palace and telling them the election had demonstrated popular love for the regime.
He criticized British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and President Barack Obama, who on Saturday urged Iranian authorities to halt "all violent and unjust actions against its own people."
"With that behavior you will not be among Iran's friends," Ahmadinejad said, in a potentially ominous sign for Obama's recent efforts to warm relations with Iran.
Strengthening Ahmadinejad's position, Iran's military issued a thinly veiled warning to Mousavi after days of silence.
"We are determined to confront plots by enemies aimed at creating a rift in the nation," said Gen. Gholam Ali Rashid, acting joint chief of the armed forces.
Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki accused Britain of sending spies to manipulate the election, blasted France for "treacherous and unjust approaches" and said Germany had unfairly criticized Iran's government.
Blaming foreign conspirators is a staple of Iranian government rhetoric that resonates for many in a country with a long history of manipulation by Britain, the U.S. and other powers.
British Foreign Secretary David Miliband "categorically" denied his country was meddling and German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Iran anew to conduct a complete and transparent recount.
"This can only damage Iran's standing in the eyes of the world," Miliband said.
The British Broadcasting Corp. said its Tehran-based correspondent, Jon Leyne, had been asked to leave the country but its office remained open. Newsweek said journalist Maziar Bahari, a Canadian citizen, had been detained without charge and LIFE reported the arrest of the photojournalist who took an iconic photograph of a young woman in a headscarf making a "V" for victory gesture at the camera as white smoke roiled in the background. It did not reveal the photographer's name.
Reporters Without Borders said 23 journalists had been arrested during the past week.
There were unconfirmed reports of small demonstrations and clashes Sunday, and stores were closed in Tehran neighborhoods that saw violence the day. Life appeared to be normal in other parts of Tehran on Sunday, a weekday in Iran, but experts cautioned that it could be a brief lull and not the end of Iran's worst internal turmoil in three decades.
Weissenstein reported from Cairo.
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
But there there is so much more to learn about this situation.

I have to be honest and say I didn't know much about the Supreme Leader. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei)

Nor did I know much about how Iran's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) political system has been running, but this is BIG.

Thoughts? Insights? If you has them, will you share em?
TIA!

olevetonahill

6/21/2009, 08:24 PM

I haven't kept up much
just seems now the religious leaders are fightin amongst themselves .

I think whatever happens there's gonna be some big changes

Turd_Ferguson

6/21/2009, 08:25 PM

Turn that place into glass....NOW!

I keed:D

Turd_Ferguson

6/21/2009, 08:26 PM

I haven't kept up much
just seems now the religious leaders are fightin amongst themselves .

I think whatever happens there's gonna be some big changesConcur.

Curly Bill

6/21/2009, 08:26 PM

I honestly didn't read that entire thing, but it does look like things could get interesting over there.

...maybe I should say: more interesting.

olevetonahill

6/21/2009, 08:28 PM

Hell Ill be happy if a more stable Gov. comes out of this mess.
Dont really care if they are More Favorable to US or not as long as they lose the Hate US crap.

Crucifax Autumn

6/21/2009, 08:31 PM

I think if they'd get a government that is both stable and actually represents the majority of Iranians who want to be a real part of the world things will be infinitely better in the region and even the world.

CK Sooner

6/21/2009, 08:31 PM

Iran is a cluster**** of bull****.

Jacie

6/21/2009, 08:35 PM

soonerhubs

6/21/2009, 08:42 PM

The absurdity of accusing foreign governments using spies to foment unrest is incredible. At the same time, how bad does it have to get before the ayatollahs cut the little dictator loose and allow something approaching a fair election to take place? The killing of a young girl, caught on video and shown around the world is powerful stuff and it is not going to go away simply because the leaders there choose to ignore it.

I believe you are correct. For better or for worse in it's numerous contexts, the internet has made major changes in society. I'd suggest that this is one extreme example.

I'll never look at Twitter, Youtube, or Facebook the same way again.

Okla-homey

6/21/2009, 08:54 PM

olevetonahill

6/21/2009, 08:56 PM

Iran is a cluster**** of bull****.

Nice intelligent post, reflecting what Hub wanted :rolleyes:

King Crimson

6/21/2009, 08:57 PM

IMHO the kids doing the protesting who were born after the Islamic revolution are our best hope. They can return their country to some semblance of a secular state, but they need our support.

it's more than that. Iran has a quasi-secular, educated middle class. if you've been listening at all to the BBC world service for the last year, none of this should surprise you.

everyone i know who "studies" the middle east (academics, Leninists, and loose women) are all pretty much agreed the election was fixed.

Okla-homey

6/21/2009, 09:04 PM

it's more than that. Iran has a quasi-secular, educated middle class. if you've been listening at all to the BBC world service for the last year, none of this should surprise you.

everyone i know who "studies" the middle east (academics, Leninists, and loose women) are all pretty much agreed the election was fixed.

There's no question. But the mullahs in charge aren't going to go off quietly into the night. Perhaps we should be like Bourbon France was to the American colonists in helping those kids' and the Iranian intelligentsia's revolution. But we have to do it on the down-low with covert ops and plausible deniability so as not to further inflame the America haters both here and abroad.

JohnnyMack

6/21/2009, 09:16 PM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=230687&title=jason-jones-in-iran-behind-the

AggieTool

6/21/2009, 09:26 PM

olevetonahill

6/21/2009, 10:28 PM

Im thinkin this is a dance we should sit out .

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_us_iran

olevetonahill

6/21/2009, 10:46 PM

Dayum , after readin that I pretty much agree with the Dems. approach :eek:

But really we need to stay the **** out of it and Hope for the best .

Crucifax Autumn

6/21/2009, 11:16 PM

CK Sooner

6/21/2009, 11:21 PM

Nice intelligent post, reflecting what Hub wanted :rolleyes:

Why do you always have to **** with me, ****!

Vaevictis

6/21/2009, 11:21 PM

Curly Bill

6/21/2009, 11:26 PM

If the Iranians are fighting each other, that likely keeps them from being as involved in any shenanigans in Iraq, or from furthering psycho-leader's plans for obliterating Israel. Right? Which is of course good. Right?

TUSooner

6/21/2009, 11:29 PM

The big misconception is that this is about freedom.

The opposition merely wants a return to the vision of the '70s
revolution that was about Islam.

The status-quo wants to maintain the autocratic-military dictatorship it currently is.

That sentence says you are not paying attention. It's about more than the election at this point. Do you hear what the protesters are saying?! But I forget you are a troll and not meant to be taken seriously. My bad. ;)

Homey is spot-on about the under-30 Iranians. These people were born after the revolution, and there is just too much information available for them to keep swallowing the Koolaid. My most pessimistic prediction is that the hard-liners will crush dissent, try to suppress the media fully, seal off the country, and drag it farther into isolation.
The keys to avoiding that are
(1) Whether Rafsanjani can get support in the halls of power. I'll grant that he's not about the "freedom" the more optimistic protestors want, but he may be the best chance at fending off full-scale, bloody oppression.
(2) Whether the dissent can go beyond these street protests, which will likely lose steam. An armed uprising seems most unlikely, but there could be a prolonged and determined campaign of non-violent civil disobedience. This would take more guts IMHO than an armed revolt, but it might make it impossible for the hardliners to arrest everyone. When the basiji and the gubment start making martyrs of teen-aged girls and other ordinary people, the people "on the fence" will reject the ruling powers. The military might even feel compelled to intervene. (But I know nothing about the Iranian military.)

One thing for sure: The revolt is conclusive proof - if any was ever lacking - that Ahmedinejad is a rank, ignorant, lunatic, petty, chicken-**** punk. He reminds me of Mussolini in a way; I hope he meets the same fate.

Vaevictis

6/21/2009, 11:36 PM

But I know nothing about the Iranian military.

The military, if it's anything like it was in 1979 and the protesters and establishment keep this up, may eventually wash their hands of the establishment.

If you look at the parallels to the 1979 revolution, they're pretty striking. The military was initially used to crush dissent then, and the protesters kept it up. Eventually, the military started to balk at using violence against their own civilians (as militaries often do). The Shah kept putting them out there, and eventually the military got tired of it and declared neutrality.

At that point, the revolutionaries won.

If the current day protesters keep this up, you may see the same thing happen again. The question is, are things bad enough that they have the will to keep it up in the face of violent reprisal?

olevetonahill

6/22/2009, 12:13 AM

Why do you always have to **** with me, ****!

Cause you a dumbas , Bout to boot ya from the Posse.
tired of yer cryin and whinin .

olevetonahill

6/22/2009, 01:54 AM

Why do you always have to **** with me, ****!

Another thing ya lil idjit .
You bring shame to the Posse :mad:

olevetonahill

6/22/2009, 01:55 AM

Cause you a dumbas , Bout to boot ya from the Posse.
tired of yer cryin and whinin .

Hell I done did
Turn in yer spurs:pop:

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 08:46 AM

I have to say that sitting it out is a good idea. If we start trying to push anything there the Mullahs and the idiot can say "see...I told you about those imperialist Americans" and the people on the fence there will lean toward nationalism and away from secularism and truly entering the world stage in a friendly way.
They are going to blame us, the Great Satan, anyway. Nothing we do can stop that.

But not supporting the people of Iran and trying NOT to **** off the dictators out there beating and killing their people is a nearly criminal disgrace IMO.

It would be nice of Obama to come out from under his desk and put some pressure of these terrorists thugs.

You know its bad when the French President seems to have more balls than the American President.

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 08:49 AM

The military, if it's anything like it was in 1979 and the protesters and establishment keep this up, may eventually wash their hands of the establishment.

If you look at the parallels to the 1979 revolution, they're pretty striking. The military was initially used to crush dissent then, and the protesters kept it up. Eventually, the military started to balk at using violence against their own civilians (as militaries often do). The Shah kept putting them out there, and eventually the military got tired of it and declared neutrality.

At that point, the revolutionaries won.

If the current day protesters keep this up, you may see the same thing happen again. The question is, are things bad enough that they have the will to keep it up in the face of violent reprisal?
I appreciate these insightful posts. Would it be safe to say that most Iranian citizens are not anti-American?

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 08:50 AM

They are going to blame us, the Great Satan, anyway. Nothing we do can stop that.

But not supporting the people of Iran and trying NOT to **** off the dictators out there beating and killing their people is a nearly criminal disgrace IMO.

It would be nice of Obama to come out from under his desk and put some pressure of these terrorists thugs.

You know its bad when the French President seems to have more balls than the American President.

Dude, take that back to your threads doing the Red/Blue dance. May I politely ask no one respond to partisan rhetoric in this thread?

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 08:53 AM

Dude, take that back to your threads doing the Red/Blue dance. May I politely ask no one respond to partisan rhetoric in this thread?
Sorry, its not partisan, its just the fact at this point, and it's a F'kn disgrace. But my apologies.

I did read something that I thought was put rather well this weekend on the matter:

The Iranian regime is an evil tyranny. It supports terrorists and terrorism. The United States has a debt of honor to settle with it for the kidnapping and mistreatment of American hostages thirty years ago. That disgrace is not simply a matter of history. It is a disgrace in which Iran's execrable president personally participated. We remember.

The Iranian regime is responsible for the maiming and murder of many Americans and others who have been made its victims. The overthrow of the regime would be well deserved. We support the brave protesters who have taken to the streets of Iran to express their opposition to the regime and we wish them success in their endeavors.

Referring to Churchill and Hitler, Leo Strauss observed that the contrast between the indomitable and magnanimous statesman and the insane tyrant presented a "spectacle [that] in its clear simplicity was one of the greatest lessons which men can learn, at any time." So today we find that the contrast between the brave people of Iran standing up for their freedom from the tyranny of the Iranian regime is too "in its clear simplicity...one of the greatest lessons which men can learn, at any time."

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 08:57 AM

That sentence says you are not paying attention. It's about more than the election at this point. Do you hear what the protesters are saying?! But I forget you are a troll and not meant to be taken seriously. My bad. ;)

Homey is spot-on about the under-30 Iranians. These people were born after the revolution, and there is just too much information available for them to keep swallowing the Koolaid. My most pessimistic prediction is that the hard-liners will crush dissent, try to suppress the media fully, seal off the country, and drag it farther into isolation.
The keys to avoiding that are
(1) Whether Rafsanjani can get support in the halls of power. I'll grant that he's not about the "freedom" the more optimistic protestors want, but he may be the best chance at fending off full-scale, bloody oppression.
(2) Whether the dissent can go beyond these street protests, which will likely lose steam. An armed uprising seems most unlikely, but there could be a prolonged and determined campaign of non-violent civil disobedience. This would take more guts IMHO than an armed revolt, but it might make it impossible for the hardliners to arrest everyone. When the basiji and the gubment start making martyrs of teen-aged girls and other ordinary people, the people "on the fence" will reject the ruling powers. The military might even feel compelled to intervene. (But I know nothing about the Iranian military.)

One thing for sure: The revolt is conclusive proof - if any was ever lacking - that Ahmedinejad is a rank, ignorant, lunatic, petty, chicken-**** punk. He reminds me of Mussolini in a way; I hope he meets the same fate.

This is interesting here. Can you imagine being a soldier and having to put down protests by harming your fellow country men/women? I don't know if I could stomach it, especially if I knew the people being attacked.

That would have to be some special indoctrination on the military's part there.

yermom

6/22/2009, 09:03 AM

Sorry, its not partisan, its just the fact at this point, and it's a F'kn disgrace. But my apologies.

I did read something that I thought was put rather well this weekend on the matter:

yeah, whitewash our backing of the Shah out of our history with Iran. they might have been a little provoked in that whole hostage deal

i keep thinking Bay of Pigs with this. but seriously, assuming the current numbers of dead and injured are corrent, i'm thinking that would be matched in one bombing or whatever if we were involved in this conflict

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 09:04 AM

I can see both perspectives about the pros and cons of outright support of the opposition or covert support. I'm just much more comfortable in my discussions when hyperbole, vulgarity, profanity, etc, are checked in at the door.

Visceral appellation has its place, but I find that it seldom stimulates the cognitive side of things the way simple facts and calm presentations of multiple perspectives do.

That said, the quote you used at the end there Tuba provides valuable insight as well. Thanks for sharing.

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 09:08 AM

yeah, whitewash our backing of the Shah out of our history with Iran. they might have been a little provoked in that whole hostage deal
Well, glad to know they have a good excuse for abusing and killing so many Americans over the last 30 or so years. :rolleyes:

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 09:10 AM

I'm just much more comfortable in my discussions when hyperbole, vulgarity, profanity, etc, are checked in at the door.
Than what in the hell are you doing starting a thread on the SO?
;)

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 09:18 AM

Iranians overthrew the US-backed Shah without our help in 1979. He was every bit as autocratic and brutal as the current Iranian government. I would submit that if Iranians really want to overthrow the current government, they don't need our help or support this time either.

That said, I don't have a problem with us supporting the opposition so long as we don't get caught. Our meddling in Iranian affairs was a major contributor to the animosity Iran has felt towards us these past 30 years.

The US and Israel are the Iranian establishment's go-to scapegoats. Let's not give them excuses to flog us to their advantage.

This is huge. See I don't think many people understand that, justified or not, sometimes our actions get misconstrued to the point that they are a detriment and a harm to our (American's anywhere) safety.

On the flip side of things, sometimes the right thing to do won't win friends no matter what. Systems theory calls this the double bind, and at an international level the consequences affect numerous lives.

That said, how would you like to be the person to evaluate and analyze whether the detriment is justified and cost-effective? There certainly is no absolute answer to this, is there?

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 10:10 AM

I'm sorry, but how many terrorists groups were supported by the Shah? How many Americans did the Shah of Iran kill???

Chuck Bao

6/22/2009, 10:19 AM

In many undeveloped and developing countries, the military is used to prop up the government or the military controls the government. Take Thailand for example, which has had something like 10 successful coups in its brief 80-year experiment with democracy. Getting soldiers to fire on their own people is apparently not that difficult.

I believe that the US should stay out of it. This is definitely not the time to be talking about settling old scores. Any attempt to help will just backfire horribly and essentially put more of the protesters in danger of a bloody crackdown.

They are going to have to solve their political problems themselves and we can only hope that they emerge with a more open and free democratic system.

soonerfan28

6/22/2009, 10:21 AM

Aren't we involved in enough conflicts. As has already been stated on national TV we don't need to give that dumbass (whose name I can't spell) a reason to crackdown on these protests and use them being US-backed as an excuse. Let Iranian government destroy there own country.

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 10:22 AM

I'm sorry, but how many terrorists groups were supported by the Shah? How many Americans did the Shah of Iran kill???

Dude, read the title of the thread and check your spek. If you want to make a point, present it already with some information, not asinine questions trying to stir the pot.

Just say, something like this:

"Although he may have been a brutal dictator, the Shah may have been the lessor of two evils."

Do you see how that gets a point across without sounding like you are calling people out?

Back to the present topic on hand:
What if there is Regime Change in Iran now? Will this lead to a pro-American stance? Will it be better for us as Americans? Will it be better for Iranians?

I'm not sure, but it may be worth the risk to help out in a covert manner. Maybe they already are helping...

soonerfan28

6/22/2009, 10:23 AM

I'm not sure, but it may be worth the risk to help out in a covert manner. Maybe they already are helping...

I would agree that something is probably going on using back channels that can't come back on us.

SoonerProphet

6/22/2009, 10:49 AM

I find it humorous that people are more interested in fawning and preening as bold freedom fighters, yet have no real tangible idea how to advance freedom and dignity to the Iranian people.

While I find it fascinating that the plugged segment has been able to show us their side of the story, the stories of the conservative forces and their arguments have been muted by the Western press.

It is also disgusting to see this "all about us" mentality when viewing global events. Seems to make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. The reality is that it doesn't matter a whole helluva lot what we say or do, it is gonna have to work itself out inside the borders of Iran and within a regional context.

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 10:51 AM

1890MilesToNorman

6/22/2009, 10:56 AM

Hard to be objective about a country who held American hostages for 444 days. :mad:

Edited to add: which created that BS show Night Line in the process.

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 11:19 AM

Hard to be objective about a country who held American hostages for 444 days. :mad:

Edited to add: which created that BS show Night Line in the process.

You're correct. I don't begrudge anyone their need to express discontent and anger towards the injustices the regime is guilty of against Americans. In fact, I'd suggest that perhaps addressing this anger would be helpful.

SoonerProphet

6/22/2009, 11:24 AM

That's a valid point. What stories of the conservative forces are not being told?

I do not know if its not the convervative voice being heard per se, just that elements that would vote for Ahmajinedad may not have access to twitter. I am sympathetic to anyone trying to advance freedom and the like, but my arguments are simply saying that the whole story isn't being told. Those that have access to technology get to tell the tale, that is all I am trying to say.

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 11:27 AM

I do not know if its not the convervative voice being heard per se, just that elements that would vote for Ahmajinedad may not have access to twitter. I am sympathetic to anyone trying to advance freedom and the like, but my arguments are simply saying that the whole story isn't being told. Those that have access to technology get to tell the tale, that is all I am trying to say.

Fair enough.

TUSooner

6/22/2009, 11:29 AM

I find it humorous that people are more interested in fawning and preening as bold freedom fighters, yet have no real tangible idea how to advance freedom and dignity to the Iranian people....

Bingo.

Hard to be objective about a country who held American hostages for 444 days.
What exactly does that mean?
Do you realize that the ideology that promoted the Embassy attack is now itself under attack (by an ideology that is at least less virulent, if not antithetical)?

1890MilesToNorman

6/22/2009, 11:33 AM

Bingo.

What exactly does that mean?
Do you realize that the ideology that promoted the Embassy attack is now itself under attack (by an ideology that is at least less virulent, if not antithetical)?

Objective was used in the title of the thread! Pay tention.

I don't like the bastages.

Tulsa_Fireman

6/22/2009, 11:47 AM

Achmedshootmywad has a bad *** jacket.

StoopTroup

6/22/2009, 12:27 PM

Hopefully his own people will use it to hang him with.

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 12:51 PM

The absurdity of accusing foreign governments using spies to foment unrest is incredible.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/29/AR2008062901881_pf.html

Head, Sand, etc.

TUSooner

6/22/2009, 12:51 PM

Objective was used in the title of the thread! Pay tention.

I don't like the bastages.
I thought you might mean "all Iranians is the same, so eff 'em" but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Scott D

6/22/2009, 12:53 PM

They are going to blame us, the Great Satan, anyway. Nothing we do can stop that.

But not supporting the people of Iran and trying NOT to **** off the dictators out there beating and killing their people is a nearly criminal disgrace IMO.

It would be nice of Obama to come out from under his desk and put some pressure of these terrorists thugs.

You know its bad when the French President seems to have more balls than the American President.

he said objective thread discussing it...you go back to your thread about Obama not being Reagan and post there sir.

1890MilesToNorman

6/22/2009, 12:55 PM

You picked out the word objective but overlooked the word COUNTRY, as a country was the meaning of the post!

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:02 PM

If you want to make a point, present it already with some information, not asinine questions trying to stir the pot.
Actually, I was just responding to comment that V made about the current regime being just as bad as the Shah.

I cannot believe that the current regimes record of killing possibly hundreds of American Soldiers in Iraq, the 19 American's they blew up in the Khobar towers, and the mistreatment of our hostages for 444 days, and the threats to wipe our allies "off the map" is somehow not relevant in comparing them with the regime of the Shah???

yermom

6/22/2009, 01:12 PM

the Shah regime was good for the US, not for the Iranians. thus the revolution and the hatred for Americans shortly thereafter

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:18 PM

the Shah regime was good for the US, not for the Iranians. thus the revolution and the hatred for Americans shortly thereafterI don't buy that the Islamic Republic has been any better for the Iranians that the Shah was. And even if they were, I don't care if we are liked, that still doesn't give them an excuse to wage war on us and Israel for 30 years like they have, or to beat their own people into submission as they are doing now.

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 01:23 PM

We beat our own protestors into submission too based on whether the proest is "allowed" by the gov't, you know. Just sayin'.

We certainly don't shoot 17 of them, though. Remember what a big deal the Kent State shootings were? They're doing that right now.

We're not a helluva lot different from them insofar as population/protest control.

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:26 PM

We're not a helluva lot different from them insofar as population/protest control.
Really?

You really believe that nonsense???

:rolleyes:

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 01:32 PM

Pull your head out of the sand, Tuba. Right now, it appears as though Iran is using tear gas, water cannons and beating protestors that are protesting without permits.

Does that sound so off-the-wall for here? It's not. We just don't protest like this almost ever.

Now, i fyou want to talk about the midnight arrests, the desctruction of dorm rooms, and the restriction of internet, then sure, they're way way worse than us on those things. We pretty much don't do that.

But i fyou want to talk about crowd control, get over yourself. We do the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Give that a look-see. Randomly shooting and killing college students that were, while somewhat aggressive, unarmed. That kind of thing hasn't happened in a long time in the US, but it's not like we're some perfect country that never harms its own citizens.

And although we're not killing our own citizens during protests ANYMORE, tear gas, obstructions, rubber bullets, and, yes, even batons, are all pretty standard issue tools for the US. I don't know if we would use water cannons or not...

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:36 PM

Pull your head out of the sand, Tuba. Right now, it appears as though Iran is using tear gas, water cannons and beating protestors that are protesting without permits.

Does that sound so off-the-wall for here?

Wow, you're really digging mallen. You do realize they kicked out the press for a reason, right?

Seriously, I am trying not to laugh.

JohnnyMack

6/22/2009, 01:36 PM

We should totally nuke them.

Howzit

6/22/2009, 01:37 PM

I think we should fling poo at their user profiles to send a message.

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 01:39 PM

Wow, you're really digging mallen. You do realize they kicked out the press for a reason, right?

Seriously, I am trying not to laugh.

And I can't help but feel sorry for you. Everyone on this board thinks your opinions are often ridiculous...you're like the poster child for rampant head-in-sand hyperpatriotism that defies logic.

Praytell, how does the United States stop civil unrest? Now, we don't see much of it on any large scale like they have going on in Iran, but do you think our police and national guardsmen would throw marshmallows at the protestors? Maybe just ask nicely over bullhorns? Because we'd NEVER use force, right?

1890MilesToNorman

6/22/2009, 01:40 PM

:twinkies:

Have fun playing wiff each other guys, this could go on fer days and I got better things to do :D

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:42 PM

And I can't help but feel sorry for you.
That's nice, but it doesn't make your argument any less crazy.

I wonder, who is the American equivalent of the Basij militia driving around beating people in the streets and at memorial services???

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:44 PM

Praytell, how does the United States stop civil unrest? Now, we don't see much of it on any large scale like they have going on in Iran, but do you think our police and national guardsmen would throw marshmallows at the protestors?
Well, according to you, they shoot them, have thugs driving around on motocycles beating people, have press blackouts, etc.

Lord knows what we do once they get these traitors back to their prison cells here.

But its probably just as bad as it is in Iran, right??

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:47 PM

I don't know if we would use water cannons or not...
Oh dear, not water cannons...

No wonder the Iranians are so upset. They may get wet!

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 01:50 PM

Well, according to you, they shoot them, have thugs driving around on motocycles beating people, have press blackouts, etc.

Lord knows what we do once they get these traitors back to their prison cells here.

But its probably just as bad as it is in Iran, right??

Actually, according to me, I said:

And although we're not killing our own citizens during protests ANYMORE, tear gas, obstructions, rubber bullets, and, yes, even batons, are all pretty standard issue tools for the US. I don't know if we would use water cannons or not...

Tear gas. Obstructions. Rubber bullets. Batons. I never said we have press blackouts, but granted, we don't. BTW, their media is ALWAYS controlled in that manner, not just at times of unrest.

We absolutely beat the crap out of our own citizens when these things happen. We HAVE shot them, just like Iran is doing. Not sure what the motorcycles have to do with anything insofar as moral culpability. That's the point. Sure, they do some pretty crappy thigns we don't do, and I even hightlighted a couple of them.

But the statement "we're not a helluva lot different" when it comes to on-the-ground crowd control during a protest stands.

olevetonahill

6/22/2009, 01:55 PM

Well Hub , You tried
seems like one Far rigthy and a wacked lefty Jacked yer thread:rolleyes:

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:57 PM

Not sure what the motorcycles have to do with anything insofar as moral culpability. That's the point. Sure, they do some pretty crappy thigns we don't do, and I even hightlighted a couple of them.

But the statement "we're not a helluva lot different" when it comes to on-the-ground crowd control during a protest stands.
Seems that one of Iran's primary methods of controlling the populace is these thugs on motorcycles called the Basiji. They are plain clothes militia riding around beating people, in some cases shooting them, and taking them under arrest.

So what is the American version of that? Since we are just as bad as the Iranians in your mind.

Lord only knows what happens after someone is arrested there. I'm sure you will have some sort of moral equivalence to how we treat our prisoners and such here at home as well??

OklahomaTuba

6/22/2009, 01:58 PM

Well Hub , You tried
seems like one Far rigthy and a wacked lefty Jacked yer thread:rolleyes:
It was like a sort of challenge. ;)

soonerhubs

6/22/2009, 02:09 PM

Well Hub , You tried
seems like one Far rigthy and a wacked lefty Jacked yer thread:rolleyes:

Thanks so much guys. I'm so glad you turned it into something it wasn't supposed to be. Tuba, you give conservatives a bad name, and your blatant disrespect for a simple request proves your immaturity. The rest of you feeding his little "Pick a fight with anyone..." mantra should learn that you're arguing with a toddler.

Conservatives can and do make numerous good points, as do progressives, and anyone else along the spectrum of political bias, but it'd be nice if some of you didn't treat every thread about a hot topic as your little play ground to pimp your stupid agendas.

Seriously, some of you actually retard the progress of your political perspective by ridiculing people, and it's getting old.

TUBA I've defended some of your threads, and agreed with many perspectives you've shared, but lately I find myself saying, "Dude, shut up!" You dig yourself so deep into your own political biases that your myopic perspective these days is equivalent to a redneck with a shed, a regular subscription to everything Rush, Hannity, or Michael Savage endorses, and some high speed internet.

Grow up and get out of this thread! You keep this up, I may have to start jacking your threads with rational thought and some intellectual discussion, something they obviously lack these days.

AggieTool

6/22/2009, 02:16 PM

Thanks so much guys. I'm so glad you turned it into something it wasn't supposed to be. Tuba, you give conservatives a bad name, and your blatant disrespect for a simple request proves your immaturity. The rest of you feeding his little "Pick a fight with anyone..." mantra should learn that you're arguing with a toddler.

Conservatives can and do make numerous good points, as do progressives, and anyone else along the spectrum of political bias, but it'd be nice if some of you didn't treat every thread about a hot topic as your little play ground to pimp your stupid agendas.

Seriously, some of you actually retard the progress of your political perspective by ridiculing people, and it's getting old.

TUBA I've defended some of your threads, and agreed with many perspectives you've shared, but lately I find myself saying, "Dude, shut up!" You dig yourself so deep into your own political biases that your myopic perspective these days is equivalent to a redneck with a shed, a regular subscription to everything Rush, Hannity, or Michael Savage endorses, and some high speed internet.

Grow up and get out of this thread! You keep this up, I may have to start jacking your threads with rational thought and some intellectual discussion, something they obviously lack these days.

Notice as requested....

I refrained from being a problem in this thread...

...until now.:D

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 02:18 PM

Seems that one of Iran's primary methods of controlling the populace is these thugs on motorcycles called the Basiji. They are plain clothes militia riding around beating people, in some cases shooting them, and taking them under arrest.

So what is the American version of that? Since we are just as bad as the Iranians in your mind.

Lord only knows what happens after someone is arrested there. I'm sure you will have some sort of moral equivalence to how we treat our prisoners and such here at home as well??

Now you're putting up strawmen. I never said we're just as bad, did I? I said we're not a helluva lot different.

But it's easy to appear to win arguments when you make up false, untenable positions for others then tear them down, right?

I'm fully aware of what the Basiji are, and that they are more-or-less government agents (militia style) that act mostly at the behest of the Revolutionary Guard. I'm aware they have transportation, including motorcycles. So do US cops. And you know what US cops would do in a situation where the civil unrest is as bad as it is there? They'd ride those motorcycles around. Know what else they'd do? Use batons and tear gas if needed...and even if they weren't.

Now, is it possible some of them are flying around Tehran shooting in an indiscriminate manner? Sure, seems like that's happening to some degree, be it large or small. Do we do that? Nope. No one is trying to argue otherwise; you've set up a strawman. A logical fallacy.

You're obfuscating the issue. My point is: we use many of the same techniques to control crowds in times of unrest, up to and including: beating the crap out of people, tear gas, intimidation (there's a reason why riot gear looks so scary), and we've even shot our own citizens. It's not all that much different, for the most part.

Your problem is you don't read for content. You find something you think you're disagreeing with, and you go ballistic, creating positions no one's even holding and arguing against them. It makes no sense, and you're jsut sort of yelling into the night.

yermom

6/22/2009, 02:28 PM

the free press killed a lot of the violence like that though. it was a big tool in the civil rights movement

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 03:11 PM

Well Hub , You tried
seems like one Far rigthy and a wacked lefty Jacked yer thread:rolleyes:

Am I the wacked lefty here? Vet, I'm not even a lefty. Moderate libertarian with a healthy distrust for the federal government. We've talked about this. ;)

AggieTool

6/22/2009, 03:16 PM

Am I the wacked lefty here? Vet, I'm not even a lefty. Moderate libertarian with a healthy distrust for the federal government. We've talked about this. ;)

Yeah I get mislabeled too.

I'm a genuine conservative (as opposed to a neocon), and I am frustrated by the sudden concern from the right about spending.

The neocons have rendered any legitimate gripes from the right moot.:mad:

Fraggle145

6/22/2009, 03:38 PM

Andddddddddd heeeeeerrrrrrreeee weeeeeeeeeeee goooooooooooo

Vaevictis

6/22/2009, 03:41 PM

Actually, I was just responding to comment that V made about the current regime being just as bad as the Shah.

Actually, what I said was:

He was every bit as autocratic and brutal as the current Iranian government.

And he was. Go take some time to read about SAVAK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK) and you'll see that my statement is pretty fair.

And Hubler, I know you said engaging with this guy is pretty pointless, but I figured you might want to read about SAVAK also. ;)

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 03:50 PM

Andddddddddd heeeeeerrrrrrreeee weeeeeeeeeeee goooooooooooo

Meh, done with Tuba. Can't talk to that guy.

And I thought I was staying pretty objective too! :cool:

Scott D

6/22/2009, 04:17 PM

That's nice, but it doesn't make your argument any less crazy.

I wonder, who is the American equivalent of the Basij militia driving around beating people in the streets and at memorial services???

In the 60s my family called them "The Police".

JohnnyMack

6/22/2009, 04:20 PM

Heh.

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 04:29 PM

In the 60s my family called them "The Police".

That would never happen here. Ever. Impossible. :rolleyes:

Octavian

6/22/2009, 04:35 PM

unlike many other facets of his young presidency....I've actually agreed so far with his handling of this.

he's boxed the Iranian regime into a corner and made them the villains rather than the evil United States -- in a way perhaps only he could.

but really, its not much different than what GWB was doing. He's calling out the regime (though much less forcefully)...and giving lip service to the people.

but the difference isn't so much his actions as his personal profile and history.....he's succeeding with an inverse "only Nixon could go to China" sort of way

instead of muslim radicals marching in the streets with anti-Bush/USA signs...they're now marching in the streets with anti-Iranian/Ayatollah signs

whatever the cause may be....he should get his due

Collier11

6/22/2009, 04:47 PM

Iran bad...USA good

SoonerProphet

6/22/2009, 04:47 PM

OUMallen

6/22/2009, 05:05 PM

What really needs to be known, and to see if this is just more than dumb punk kids and the intelligentsia, is if there are labor strikes occuring. Are police forces suffering from the "blue flu" and does the regular military feel its voice wasn't heard with vote tampering. If it snow balls and those other things fall into place then we might see a "revolution".

They're saying there's dissent amongst the ruling elite...I don't know if that's what you meant by "intelligentsia" or not. It's not just ivory-tower liberal collehe profs...the clerics are divided a little from what I've read.

But I think you're right- there seems to be a lack of authoritative breakdown amongst police or military. Also, I think the last protest that occurred was only like a couple/few thousand people. It may be simmering down.

Iranian riot police have fired tear gas to break up a new opposition rally in the centre of the capital Tehran, hours after a stern warning to protesters.
Some 1,000 people had gathered on Haft-e Tir Square despite the warning from Iran's Revolutionary Guards against holding unapproved rallies.
Basij militiamen wielding clubs were brought in to reinforce the police.
The Guards, an elite armed force, vowed to crack down on new street protests over the presidential election results.

On Friday Ayatollah Ali Khamenei banned protests, prompting street violence in which at least 10 people died.
Severe reporting restrictions placed on the BBC and other foreign media in Iran mean protest reports cannot be verified independently.

Vaevictis

6/22/2009, 09:11 PM

Was reading a copy of Time I picked up today:

Twitter's strengths are also its weaknesses. The vast body of information about Iran circulating on Twitter is chaotic, subjective and totally unverifiable. But here's a measure of its new role in international politics: engineers delayed a planned network upgrade that would have taken the system down at the height of the protests after being asked to wait by the US State Department.

Just for reference, yeah, the US is doing stuff here, they're just doing it behind the scenes.

Scott D

6/22/2009, 09:37 PM

seriously, Time let a typo like that slip through?

Vaevictis

6/22/2009, 09:45 PM

If there's a typo in there, it's probably mine. I manually transcribed it from the print edition.

EDIT: Yeah, the roll/role thing is my error. I have a tendency to type by muscle memory.

Scott D

6/22/2009, 09:49 PM

I liked it better when I thought some Time editor was sleeping on the job.

olevetonahill

6/22/2009, 09:50 PM

Am I the wacked lefty here? Vet, I'm not even a lefty. Moderate libertarian with a healthy distrust for the federal government. We've talked about this. ;)

Figured ya had to be a Whaked lefty to keep arguing with Tuba :P

Crucifax Autumn

6/22/2009, 10:20 PM

I'm just whack yo!

olevetonahill

6/22/2009, 11:18 PM

Dont know if this has been posted yet (aint gonna read the Tuba/Mallen marathon)
But its casting Big doubt on the legitimacy of the elections

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_fraud_allegations

Fraggle145

6/22/2009, 11:30 PM

Meh, done with Tuba. Can't talk to that guy.

And I thought I was staying pretty objective too! :cool:

You know what they say about arguing with an idiot... you cant tell who the idiot is.

Fraggle145

6/22/2009, 11:31 PM

Dont know if this has been posted yet (aint gonna read the Tuba/Mallen marathon)
But its casting Big doubt on the legitimacy of the elections

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_fraud_allegations

hmmm is it possible for us to be pressuring britain in any way to do this? just curious...

John Kochtoston

6/22/2009, 11:58 PM

I'm sorry, but how many terrorists groups were supported by the Shah? How many Americans did the Shah of Iran kill???

I'd say SAVAK instilled terror in quite a few people.

Scott D

6/23/2009, 04:07 AM

hmmm is it possible for us to be pressuring britain in any way to do this? just curious...

Considering the history Britain (via BP) has in Iran, there wouldn't need to be any outside influence by the US in that matter.

TUSooner

6/23/2009, 08:23 AM

In the 60s my family called them "The Police".

I suspect y'all were guilty of "driving while black."

TUSooner

6/23/2009, 08:31 AM

I'd say SAVAK instilled terror in quite a few people.

I was with my future wife at Beverly's on NW 23rd in about 1976. I was asking her about Iranian politics and she quietly shushed me and changed the subject. When we got outside, she explaned that she thought 2 "Savakis" were sitting near us. Not exacly terror, but pretty strange to have to look over your shoulder when you are 12,000 miles out of the country...

OklahomaTuba

6/23/2009, 10:14 AM

I'd say SAVAK instilled terror in quite a few people.
The CIA taught them well.

But they were no Hezbollah, Hamas or IRG, thats for sure.

John Kochtoston

6/23/2009, 12:03 PM

The CIA taught them well.

But they were no Hezbollah, Hamas or IRG, thats for sure.

How so?

OklahomaTuba

6/23/2009, 01:02 PM

How so?Mostly by the amount of carnage the current regimes terrorist proxies have inflicted on people inside AND outside of Iran. The crimes Hamas and Hezbollah have inflicted on the states of Israel & Lebanon alone is an order of magnatude higher than anything SAVAK was responsible for. Not to mention what the IRG has done to our soldiers in Iraq, to American Citizens who died in KOS, and elsewhere. I know I can't wait to see what happens when such level headed folk get their hands on a nuke.

Its also nice to hear that Obama has invited such nice folks over for Hotdogs and beer on the 4th.

MojoRisen

6/23/2009, 01:06 PM

TUSooner

6/23/2009, 01:20 PM

Explain again why we care whether SAVAK or Hezballah is worse.

JohnnyMack

6/23/2009, 01:43 PM

Explain again why we care whether SAVAK or Hezballah is worse.

Exactly. It's like asking whether you'd rather face the Emperor's Royal Guard or a Storm Commando?

Scott D

6/23/2009, 02:02 PM

CNN last night, Britain is totally instigating this to press on. The British CNN was kind of a fresh look at this last night and were hammering Barack. Then I figured they were RED COATS and flipped the channel.

Britain's had an axe to grind with Persia for a long time. The irony of course is that all of Britain's problems were self inflicted, and they pretty much are the reason that Persia goes by Iran.

OklahomaTuba

6/23/2009, 02:20 PM

Explain again why we care whether SAVAK or Hezballah is worse.I don't care really, but I think a lot of lefties try to use these comparisons as a way to justify how bad Iran has been for the world.

Either that or they are just brain dead. Maybe both.

I think it easily explains how someone can be crazy enough compare US crowd control methods to what the Iranians are doing right now. Even if they both happen to use water hoses.

sitzpinkler

6/23/2009, 04:00 PM

OUMallen

6/23/2009, 04:12 PM

I don't care really, but I think a lot of lefties try to use these comparisons as a way to justify how bad Iran has been for the world.

Either that or they are just brain dead. Maybe both.

I think it easily explains how someone can be crazy enough compare US crowd control methods to what the Iranians are doing right now. Even if they both happen to use water hoses.

Oh fark off Tuba. Similarities:

cops/militia
riot gear
batons
tear gas
beating the crap out of their own citizens
shooting own unarmed citizens (Kent State)
horses/motorcycles
barricades
waterhoses

Things they're doing we don't:
media blackout (helps obfuscate what's going on)
restriction of internet (keeps protestors from communicating)
their basiji seem to be more wanton in their actions than our government could be in this day and age in America

Now, Einstein, if you want to talk about their government in general ransacking dorm rooms and randomly arresting potential opposition, then yes, Iran is way worse than us. If you want to talk about on-the-ground crowd control during a forbidden protest (we require permits for protests too), then you're simply an ignorant jackass that can't even admit that someone is showing facts you can't stand to admit. Instead, your assert the above parallels show that I'm brain dead? I've drunk away more braincells than I reckon you ever started with...

You resorting to personal insults in the face of EVERYONE disagreeing with you shows how myopic your opinions have become and how unwelcome your rhetoric is. Read the thread again and responses to you and do some introspection. Ask yourself: wow, could I be this far off base? Are my opinions really rejected by almost everyone as too far right?

soonerhubs

6/23/2009, 04:19 PM

I am so Glad I started this thread. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

From here on out, I'm going to Start two threads at the same time. One for the circle Jerk, Called the circle-jerk edition, and one for rationale polite presentation of perspectives called the "It's only a matter of time before Malen and Tuba Go At-It in this thread because no one is reading their's" thread.

"You're dumb!"

"No, You're dumb!"

"Oh ya, well my daddy, president, party rep, etc... can whoop yours asses."

Would someone please negative star this sucker? It deserves it after page 2. Or maybe a mod can split the thread. :D

OUMallen

6/23/2009, 04:28 PM

Sorry your thread didn't turn out the way you want it to; maybe you should start an email discussion with only people you want to talk to next time.

/Done with Tuba.
//I know it's the second time I said that, but Fraggle is right- argue with an idiot, you can't tell who's who.

C&CDean

6/23/2009, 04:41 PM

SoonerProphet

6/23/2009, 05:00 PM

3. I couldn't tell you either guy's name, and I couldn't even think about saying or spelling either one. In fact, I don't really have a clue what's going on over there cause I haven't watched anything but KFOR news at 10 in at least a year or two. And you know what? I don't care either.

Exactly, and neither should Obama or a grandstanding Congress give us their worthless opinion. It is not our business and evidence for most cases seems to indicate the less likely we are to "care", especially this one, the more likely these crooks will be exposed as the frauds they are.

And I am talking about the Persian frauds, not Obama or our self serving Congress.

soonerhubs

6/23/2009, 05:04 PM

1. There's more than 1 idiot in this thread.
2. Y'all **** all over our local latter-day-prophet's thread and he asked you very nicely not to. Repeatedly.
3. I couldn't tell you either guy's name, and I couldn't even think about saying or spelling either one. In fact, I don't really have a clue what's going on over there cause I haven't watched anything but KFOR news at 10 in at least a year or two. And you know what? I don't care either.
4. If one more person takes a political dump on Sir Hooobler's thread I will ban you to bolivia.
5. Carry on.

Thank you sir.

Now back to the topic at hand... Before the fights.

It looks like there were similar brutalities towards Iranian citizens conducted by both the Pre 1979 as well as the present regime. Of course, none of us know the full consequences of another regime change now, just as I'm sure back in 1979 the world didn't know what would come of that revolution.

Here's the news today from BBC. (I find BBC doesn't have really a political slant, of course I may be wrong.)

Iran views: 'Police everywhere'
Iranians across the country are reporting streets full of security forces to prevent protests against the disputed presidential election results. The majority of people contacting BBC Persian and BBC News are opposition supporters - so we would like to hear from those supporting the government. Below is a selection of comments from BBC users in Iran.

Mehrdust, 25, Shiraz, via e-mail

Police are almost everywhere in the streets, especially in the places where chaos broke out on Saturday - Mollasadra Street and Eram Street.

Every 50m or so you can see a group of between five to 10 guards, sitting on the pavement.

There's been no sign of demonstrations in Shiraz since Saturday. Either people are waiting for something, or maybe they are just too scared.

I joined the protests on Saturday. The police were being really violent, hitting people with batons and using tear gas. There are no clear figures, but I believe at last 10 people were killed in Shiraz that night.

I saw a big group of mainly young people get arrested. The police response was unbelievable, completely different to the demonstrations I was at last week. They showed no mercy.

It seems as though the regime has managed to quell the protests in Shiraz, but I think this is the calm before the storm.

They cannot take people for granted and go on controlling everything. Especially now that they've shown their ugly face to the world, killing their own people in the streets, yet calling them rioters and terrorists.

Hossein, Esfahan, via e-mail

I haven't been out today yet, but yesterday there were policemen standing by every petrol station and bank.

It seems the city is back the way it was - there weren't any protests today or yesterday that I know of.

I think people are waiting for the final announcement of the Guardian Council and the reaction from Mr [Mir Hossein] Mousavi and Mr [Mehdi] Karoubi.

At nights you can still hear the sound of people shouting "Allah-o-Akbar" ["God is great"]. I don't join in because I think it's a symbol of Islam and I think the Islamic hardliners are the source of all this misery we are going through.

Most of the websites, including the BBC ones are still blocked. You can only access them through anti-filters. I'm using the Chinese software Freegate, which is working really well. Of the TV channels, only CNN is still getting through.

I think young people are more fearless now because they hadn't seen any street fights or resistance against the government before. Now they know what it's like, they are getting used to it.

Susan, 24, student, central Tehran, via e-mail

Security forces are placed strategically around Tehran to prevent people gathering. There have been no organised demonstrations since Saturday.

My father was in Haftom-e-Tir Square yesterday and told us they weren't letting people stand still for a second, and they were arresting anyone who argued.

I always believed in democratic reform rather than revolutionary action, which is why I took part in the election. But now they are killing democracy, so I have no choice but to demonstrate.

I join the rooftop protests every evening with my father and brother. We see and hear our neighbours taking part too, and the numbers have grown since Friday. Some people are afraid of being seen, so they wait until others have started shouting until they come onto their roofs.

We shout "Allah-o-Akbar" - God is great - and then "Ya Hossein, Mir Hossein" - which is us asking Imam Hossein to help us have Mir Hossein Mousavi as our president.

Some also end with "Marg bar dictator" - which means "Death to the dictator".

Amir, student in Kish island

About 20,000 people live on Kish Island off the southern coast of Iran. It is a free trade zone and attracts more than five million tourists a year.

I have just returned to Tehran, from Kish Island in southern Iran, where I am a student. I travel back and forth to Kish by plane.

The government normally has full control of the international branch of my university on the island. Despite this, on Monday evening we held a memorial event on campus for all the innocent people who have been killed by the Iranian regime in recent days.

There were more than 150 people - a big number for such a tiny place. The guards did not enter the campus because there were so many of us. They just warned us not to continue demonstrating when we left.

Students from other international universities on Kish Island tried to join us, but the guards did not let them. E-mails sent to BBC Persian TV

I think protesters should keep demonstrating in their own ways. For example, those who work for official organisations should avoid going to work, or businesses could stay closed. In this way the government and the economy will suffer heavily, which will bring the government to its knees. Amir

The only way for the regime to survive is for the Guardian Council to oust Mr [Ali] Khamenei from leadership, otherwise the protesters would point their finger towards the whole regime. Ehsan

I think the only way out of this situation is for one side to retreat. I think it is the government and the president who should retreat from their position, and give the way to reformists. Hossein

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/8115100.stm

Published: 2009/06/23 18:48:49 GMT

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Scott D

6/23/2009, 05:07 PM

well like I said earlier hubler, if there's anyone who has more of an antagonistic stance toward Iran than the US, it's Britain.

Then again, this would still completely be their mess had they not known exactly what buttons to push to get Ike to get the US involved in Britain's mess.

Perhaps if the Shah had been more like his father, there would have been no Islamic Revolution in 1979, and we never have the hostage situation.

Perhaps because of this, Iran are stronger allies to us in that region than the Saudi royal family and Egypt.

But, we shall never know, because Britain pulled a fast one on Ike, and we as a nation got left holding the bag.

soonerhubs

6/23/2009, 05:17 PM

Considering the history Britain (via BP) has in Iran, there wouldn't need to be any outside influence by the US in that matter.

Britain's had an axe to grind with Persia for a long time. The irony of course is that all of Britain's problems were self inflicted, and they pretty much are the reason that Persia goes by Iran.

well like I said earlier hubler, if there's anyone who has more of an antagonistic stance toward Iran than the US, it's Britain.

Then again, this would still completely be their mess had they not known exactly what buttons to push to get Ike to get the US involved in Britain's mess.

Perhaps if the Shah had been more like his father, there would have been no Islamic Revolution in 1979, and we never have the hostage situation.

Perhaps because of this, Iran are stronger allies to us in that region than the Saudi royal family and Egypt.

But, we shall never know, because Britain pulled a fast one on Ike, and we as a nation got left holding the bag.

Sorry I missed your insightful points. I put them all together for convenience's sake.

At the moment I'm readying this Wikipedia article on Britain and Iran's/Persia's history. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Britain_relations)

soonerhubs

6/23/2009, 06:52 PM

Israeli Radio Show Captivates Iranians (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124571901245939581.html#mod=article-outset-box)

Wow!

soonerscuba

6/23/2009, 10:48 PM

picasso

6/24/2009, 12:14 PM

Exactly, and neither should Obama or a grandstanding Congress give us their worthless opinion. It is not our business and evidence for most cases seems to indicate the less likely we are to "care", especially this one, the more likely these crooks will be exposed as the frauds they are.

And I am talking about the Persian frauds, not Obama or our self serving Congress.

Well the funniest thing is that Democrats are saying we shouldn't politicize this, knowing full well they'd be doing it if a Republican president was keeping mum.

Obama has even stated that his foreign policy of being friendly isn't working in Iran. Apparently those in power in Iran have mistranslated his smile in order for political gain.:rolleyes:

TUSooner

6/24/2009, 12:59 PM

The death of Neda Soltan might be a more major event than the sitting government could bargain for because of Islamic traditions for mourning. There will be vigils on the 3rd, 7th and 40th days after her death, in the '79 revolution this became a self mounting protest cycle for martyrs. I've always said that I would believe in Iranian political activism when I saw it, I'm a believer and think it's a definite step in the right direction, but at the end of the day, a government tied to a religion is never ideal.

This is true. How bad is it to publicly murder a beautiful girl for ... for what? I'm haunted by her once pretty now dead face. One eye stares at nothing while the other eye is closed beneath the puddle of blood that ran from her nose and mouth. A picture is indeed worth a thousand words.
Also-
I suggest reading chapter 9 (I think) of "How Soccer Explains the World." It's about the secularizing and liberalizing effect the sport has had on Iran since the Brits introduced it there. It's a few years old, but it dovetails with recent events. (FWIW - The whole book is "OK." The last chapter about soccer in the USA is interesting; the early chapters are mostly about hooligans, gangsters, corruption, and racism. )

SoonerProphet

6/24/2009, 04:59 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/21/AR2009062101791.html?sub=AR