We won't be hearing this from our President on Iran...

[OklahomaTuba]

When the Polish government declared martial law to crush Solidarity, this is what Ronald Reagan had to say on December 23, 1981:


As I speak to you tonight, the fate of a proud and ancient nation hangs in the balance. For a thousand years, Christmas has been celebrated in Poland, a land of deep religious faith, but this Christmas brings little joy to the courageous Polish people. They have been betrayed by their own government.

The men who rule them and their totalitarian allies fear the very freedom that the Polish people cherish. They have answered the stirrings of liberty with brute force, killings, mass arrests, and the setting up of concentration camps. Lech Walesa and other Solidarity leaders are imprisoned, their fate unknown. Factories, mines, universities, and homes have been assaulted.

The target of this depression [repression] is the Solidarity Movement, but in attacking Solidarity its enemies attack an entire people. Ten million of Poland's 36 million citizens are members of Solidarity. Taken together with their families, they account for the overwhelming majority of the Polish nation. By persecuting Solidarity the Polish Government wages war against its own people.

I urge the Polish Government and its allies to consider the consequences of their actions. How can they possibly justify using naked force to crush a people who ask for nothing more than the right to lead their own lives in freedom and dignity? Brute force may intimidate, but it cannot form the basis of an enduring society, and the ailing Polish economy cannot be rebuilt with terror tactics.

I want emphatically to state tonight that if the outrages in Poland do not cease, we cannot and will not conduct "business as usual'' with the perpetrators and those who aid and abet them. Make no mistake, their crime will cost them dearly in their future dealings with America and free peoples everywhere. I do not make this statement lightly or without serious reflection.http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg16-2009jun16,0,6606670.column

[My Opinion Matters]

lol. This is a stretch even for you, Tuba.

[OklahomaTuba]

lol. This is a stretch even for you, Tuba.Maybe Obama will tell both sides to stop shooting again???

Seemed to work well when Russian ran over Georgia.

[StoopTroup]

Barry is scheduling a sleepover Tuba.

Things will be fine soon.

Quit worrying.

[AggieTool]

Bush's response...

"Err ughh ma fellow 'Mericans, as you know the purveyors of the finest damn sausage are being represserated. This clashes with our freeberty and must be ceased immediately unless their neighbors, Japan can find some common ground."

"Laura? Now where's ma underoos"

[My Opinion Matters]

Call me crazy, but I consider it progress that we're no longer in the era of nation-building.

[Sooner_Bob]

Heh, heh, huh, heh, huh, huh . . . he said naked.

[OklahomaTuba]

Call me crazy, but I consider it progress that we're no longer in the era of nation-building.
So progress is watching the dictators in Iran shoot their own people who want a fair election and staying quiet about the whole thing and not taking a side??

Sounds more like being dickless, not progress.

[OklahomaTuba]

Change indeed!

George Bush Stood With Democracy Activists-- Obama Stands With Dictators


“All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.”

President George W. Bush
Second Inaugural Speech
January 20, 2005
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/06/bush-stood-with-democracy-activists.html

[My Opinion Matters]

So progress is watching the dictators in Iran shoot their own people who want a fair election and staying quiet about the whole thing and not taking a side??

Sounds more like being dickless, not progress.

Tuba, you realize the president of Iran is basically a glorified mayor, right?

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba, you realize the president of Iran is basically a glorified mayor, right?

Ahh, so thats why they had several million folks marching on Tehran getting shot at yesterday, huh?

Guess we better take the side of the mayor of Tehran then.

Maybe Obama can apologize to the Mayor for this sudden outburst of peaceful demonstrations against tyranny???

[StoopTroup]

I have grown tired of our Country being the first to be outraged by some idiots mistreatment of their own People.

We probably waited to long to go after Hitler but we eventually got it right. I think the rest of the World needs to really get on this before we start jumping on another Muslim Country.

I was watching an documentary on the Crusades and how things worked out for King Richard the other day. Had he stayed in the Holy land for one more Winter his enemy Saladin would have died and he would have been in a much better position to take control of Jerusalem. He made the choice to return Home and reload and ended up dead from an arrow wound he suffered in battle while there.

My point...

Sometimes patience is hard but sometimes these things work themselves out.

[SoonerProphet]

Maybe Obama will tell both sides to stop shooting again???

Seemed to work well when Russian ran over Georgia.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,630543,00.html

Keep holding fast to that worldview of yours Tuba. The agitprop you utilize for information has always provided an objective view.

[TUSooner]

I - as usual- vigorously reject any knee-jerk Obama bashing emanating from Tuba's cartoon worldview.
That said... I would really like Obama to man-up and say something brave to that little prick, A-blah-blah-jad and to encourage liberty loving Iranians to stand firm. It doesn't mean we have to bomb them, fer cryin out loud, but we do STAND for something, don't we?


I do wonder though.... just how recently did Tuba recognize that all Iranians are not fanatical jihadistos who need to be bombed to dust?

[My Opinion Matters]

Ahh, so thats why they had several million folks marching on Tehran getting shot at yesterday, huh?

Guess we better take the side of the mayor of Tehran then.

Maybe Obama can apologize to the Mayor for this sudden outburst of peaceful demonstrations against tyranny???

America doesn't have any interests to justify involvement.

[SoonerProphet]

Change indeed!

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/06/bush-stood-with-democracy-activists.html

Did Bush speak out against Saudi tyranny? How about the election of Hamas in Gaza? How about Reagan and Indonesia, support of Saddam, Pinochet, etc. Democracy and liberty indeed, only when it advances your political football eh Tuba.

[OklahomaTuba]

My point...

Sometimes patience is hard but sometimes these things work themselves out.

And that's fine,

but it would be nice to see a little less fecklessness from our President and more support for anything that undermines the most dangerous regime on the planet.

Its really turning into Carter Part 2. As if the first one wasn't bad enough...

[Sooner04]

I don't care about Iran. You shouldn't either, Tuba.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I - as usual- vigorously reject any knee-jerk Obama bashing emanating from Tuba's cartoon worldview.
That said... I would really like Obama to man-up and say something brave to that little prick, A-blah-blah-jad and to encourage liberty loving Iranians to stand firm. It doesn't mean we have to bomb them, fer cryin out loud, but we do STAND for something, don't we?

I doubt he will man up. He is too busy with his fashion diva wife or trying to progressive-ize the U.S.

[TUSooner]

Did Bush speak out against Saudi tyranny? How about the election of Hamas in Gaza? How about Reagan and Indonesia, support of Saddam, Pinochet, etc. Democracy and liberty indeed, only when it advances your political football eh Tuba.

Hear him. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[OklahomaTuba]

Did Bush speak out against Saudi tyranny? How about the election of Hamas in Gaza? How about Reagan and Indonesia, support of Saddam, Pinochet, etc. Democracy and liberty indeed, only when it advances your political football eh Tuba.

They probably would have said something if their were millions of their citizens in the streets of their capitals marching and getting shot at. Just a guess though.

But comparing some of those to Iran is silly, and you know it.

We did press for change in KOS, and got some of it. We overthrew Saddam, and the others happened during the cold war when we had nukes pointing at us.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I don't care about Iran. You shouldn't either, Tuba.

that sir is incorrect. Iran or N. Korea will be the unstable actor in a possible future conflict. I would worry more about Iran than N. Korea. Iran actually has history of dominating part of the world and they are likely to have the means to do something bad to a country in the region. N. Korea may have the bomb, but I think they are so internalized to repress their starving minions, they don't really have a bad guy to go after.

[OklahomaTuba]

I don't care about Iran. You shouldn't either, Tuba.

And why is that?

[Sooner04]

I think we need to fix our problems first before we worry about other people's troubles abroad.

ISOLATIONISM!

[SoonerProphet]

I am glad you feel confident to craft foreign policy on a guess. Others might weigh the options, language, regional issues, and the like before puttin' on the white hat and pistols.

[OklahomaTuba]

America doesn't have any interests to justify involvement.

Yeah, tell that to the lady I work with whose son got killed in Iraq by an Iranian made IED.

No interest at all. :rolleyes:

[MojoRisen]

Let muslims get sick of their own oppressors. Or they will call us an occupation.

If they want to fight, perhaps we back them up. I wouldn't get drawn into anything unless we know those people who are pissed have the resolve to stick out a bloody altercation. if you have several country's unilaterally ready to step in- you can threaten tactical nuclear warfare and back some homies down. If we just go in there and obliterate them - people will not know how to interpret that.

[NYC Poke]

Any appearance of American influence is the worst thing that could happen for us in Iran right now. Can anyone say "backlash"?

[Sooner04]

Yeah, tell that to the lady I work with whose son got killed in Iraq by an Iranian IED.

No interest at all. :rolleyes:
That's Bush's fault for not handling the Axis of Evil in the proper order.

See, we can all make stretches.

[JohnnyMack]

SoonerProphet = Los Angeles Lakers
OklahomaTuba = Orlando Magic

[OklahomaTuba]

I am glad you feel confident to craft foreign policy on a guess. Others might weigh the options, language, regional issues, and the like before puttin' on the white hat and pistols.

And what guess would that be???

[SoonerProphet]

They probably would have said something if their were millions of their citizens in the streets of their capitals marching and getting shot at. Just a guess though.

But comparing some of those to Iran is silly, and you know it.

We did press for change in KOS, and got some of it. We overthrew Saddam, and the others happened during the cold war when we can nukes pointing at us.

So your man crush on Reagan, who was behind such endeavors as Iran-Contra, El Salvador, support for Saddam, and various others, stops at the water's edge huh. Rhetoric only applies if he "means" it, all else in the name of the cold war.

How do I know it? Iran has elections, Egypt...well...who is our ally again?

[My Opinion Matters]

Yeah, tell that to the lady I work with whose son got killed in Iraq by an Iranian made IED.

No interest at all. :rolleyes:

I had a friend that was killed by a drunk driving a Toyota.

Invade Japan!

[OklahomaTuba]

Any appearance of American influence is the worst thing that could happen for us in Iran right now. Can anyone say "backlash"?
Agreed.

But then again, if this is a chance to see the #1 terror supporting state in the world be undermined, than some vocal support from our President would certainly be called for.

Much like Reagan did above.

[MojoRisen]

IED's are not something IRAN should be f'n with. They can blame it on a faction within the government all they want. It is just a way for them to on a world level - perform terrorism with out reprisal.

Iran is a concern - but we need some back before we go in there- I would be all for just setting them back into the 4th world as appose to getting in a conflict with out support and trying to establish democracy again.

[OklahomaTuba]

Rhetoric only applies if he "means" it, all else in the name of the cold war.

Not really sure Reagan had any other options at the time given the Cold War, do you?? And in the end, the world is much better off because the cold war came to a peaceful close, thanks in large part to the support Reagan gave to people like the movement in Poland and elsewhere.

We don't have a "cold war" now, so what's stopping Obama from supporting the people of Iran??

[OklahomaTuba]

I had a friend that was killed by a drunk driving a Toyota.

Invade Japan!

Classy.

[OklahomaTuba]

Iran is a concern - but we need some back before we go in there

I don;t think anyone is suggesting we "go in there".

[KC//CRIMSON]

I had a friend that was killed by a drunk driving a Toyota.

Invade Japan!


Was he drinking Guinness?

Death to Ireland!

[My Opinion Matters]

Classy.

This happens to be true. It also happens to demonstrate the fallacy of your logic.

[NYC Poke]

Agreed.

But then again, if this is a chance to see the #1 terror supporting state in the world be undermined, than some vocal support from our President would certainly be called for.

Much like Reagan did above.

It is a mistake to view what's going on right now in Iran as a regime change. Both candidates are running for office with the approval of the Guardian Council. Things may change for the better under Mousavi, but Iran will still be Iran.

[KC//CRIMSON]

SoonerProphet = Los Angeles Lakers
OklahomaTuba = OKC Thunder


You were being way too generous.

[TUSooner]

Iran actually has history of dominating part of the world.

Yep:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1548/persianempire.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/persianempire.jpg/)

[My Opinion Matters]

We'd better do something about Darius I. We don't want things getting out of control.

[SoonerProphet]

Not really sure Reagan had any other options at the time given the Cold War, do you?? And in the end, the world is much better off because the cold war came to a peaceful close, thanks in large part to the support Reagan gave to people like the movement in Poland and elsewhere.

We don't have a "cold war" now, so what's stopping Obama from supporting the people of Iran??

Dollars to donuts that is exactly what the Soviet Politburo was saying. Support of Jarulzelksi didn't rest on some fancy notion of "communism", or "democracy" for that matter. Instead it was based on the notion of realpolitik, and perhaps that the Soviets had lost about 27 million citizens by way of Poland.

"Democracy and "rights" , pssssh, seriously, so you are a card carrying member of Amnesty now?

[OklahomaTuba]

Instead it was based on the notion of realpolitik, and perhaps that the Soviets had lost about 27 million citizens by way of Poland.

And Reagan's motivations were not based on realpolitik as well??

We could lose a hell of a lot more than 27mm to a couple of well placed soviet nukes.

But that was then, this is today. We should be openly supporting and encouraging the next Iranian Revolution IMO. Maybe there is a chance the work we did in Iraq could help spread some real change in the region.

Not sure how supporting the spread of liberty makes me a member of Amnesty or whatever.

[Vaevictis]

Heh, I'm a little worried about the consequences of the next Iranian Revolution.

The last one didn't go so well for us.

[MojoRisen]

Give em IED's and guns! Seems to be the way of the walk.... Let em fight it out and keep them in a state of a non nuclear power.

[SoonerProphet]

Heh, I'm a little worried about the consequences of the next Iranian Revolution.

The last one didn't go so well for us.

Our record in meddling in the affairs of Iran have been dubious at best. Mossadegh, the Shah, the Islamic Republic have all been pretty bad deals.

[OklahomaTuba]

Heh, I'm a little worried about the consequences of the next Iranian Revolution.

The last one didn't go so well for us.

And add the fact we have a clone of Jimmuh in the white house, and it gets REAL scary.

But seriously, can it get any worse there????

[OklahomaTuba]

Give em IED's and guns! Seems to be the way of the walk.... Let em fight it out and keep them in a state of a non nuclear power.

BUT ITS THEIR RIGHT TO HAVE NUKES!!!!! -Obama

[Vaevictis]

But seriously, can it get any worse there????

Yes.

[OklahomaTuba]

Yes.
How so??

#1 Supporter or terrorism in the world, about to get their nukes, threatening to incinerate the jews.

Seems pretty much as bad as one place can get for us.

[OU_Sooners75]

If we would just turn that entire region into glass, we would not have to witness these types of atrocities.

[OU_Sooners75]

I say let Israel handle it!

[Vaevictis]

How so??

#1 Supporter or terrorism in the world, about to get their nukes, threatening to incinerate the jews.

Seems pretty much as bad as one place can get for us.

It can always get worse.

The fact is that the establishment in Iran wants to keep being the establishment. This fact alone limits the behavior that they're willing to engage in.

[tommieharris91]

If we would just turn that entire region into glass, we would not have to witness these types of atrocities.

Instead, we would get to witness an atrocity far greater than the ones being witnessed all over the world right now.

[LosAngelesSooner]

When the Polish government declared martial law to crush Solidarity, this is what Ronald Reagan had to say on December 23, 1981:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg16-2009jun16,0,6606670.columnYeah...Obama should TOTALLY tell the Iranians to start honoring their tradition of celebrating Christmas. :pop:

[MojoRisen]

Iran is the largest threat we have in the mid east region. Sounds like we wanted to upgrade the Saudi's Airforce to deal with Iran's - but Isreal was pissed about that.

I don't think there is any resolution to this until Russia backs off and we get Saudi and Isreal on the same page to take them out with us.

We may have to wait for Iran to strike before turning them into glass. Isreal won't, then they will have Russia and Saudi on em and the rest of the Muslim's in the mid east. We got to back up isreal agains Iran - so getting Saudi and isreal on the same page would be good- get Russia to quit teaching them about nukes and we can probably handle the situation.

[AggieTool]

If we would just turn that entire region into glass, we would not have to witness these types of atrocities.

Smartest post evar!:D

[Scott D]

Saudi's won't move until the gates of Mecca are 'threatened'. Their bigger problem would be a popular uprising of the poor and uneducated on the side of a (to them) liberating Holy Army.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Yeah, tell that to the lady I work with whose son got killed in Iraq by an Iranian made IED.
Agreed.

But then again, if this is a chance to see the #1 terror supporting state in the world be undermined, than some vocal support from our President would certainly be called for.

Much like Reagan did above.Saudi Arabia is arguably the world's #1 terror supporting state, ya maroon.

Also, there is no such thing as an IED made by Iran or any other government. Know what your words mean, for heaven's sake. IED = Improvised Explosive Device. In other words...an explosive that some MacGyver build out of spare blowuppy parts laying around.

You just throw out things and hope they might stick with some semblance of fact, don't you?

Not sure how supporting the spread of liberty makes me a member of Amnesty or whatever.That's because you don't know what Amnesty International really stands for, you just know you're supposed to hate them because your Right Wing Talking Points tell you you're supposed to hate them.

:les:THINKING FOR YERSELF, BE DAMNED!!!!

But seriously, can it get any worse there????
Let's see...they have elections, universities, their women have more rights there than in Saudi Arabia, they don't have to wear burkas, 80% of their population is under the age of 32 years old and they are extremely pro-Western, they have an open free market economy, until this past election they have had rule of law and a relatively stable government.

Yeah...I can see how it can't get any worse. :rolleyes:

[LosAngelesSooner]

By the way, you guys DO realize that most Persians don't like Arabs...and most Arabs don't like Persians. And none of them like the Afghans or the former Indians in Pakistan?

To think that they're "all the same" because of some overriding theme of "they're all Muslims" is overly simplistic drivel along the lines of saying "All Asians are the same because they are all Bhuddists and they all kinda look alike."

Dumbdumbdumbdumbdumb.

The primary thing uniting them is their hatred of US. And the thing that fuels their hatred of US the most is when we get all "Holier than thou" (literally and figuratively) and start telling them how to live their lives and how they are all buttholes and wrong about everything they do. And the only reason we've historically DONE this is because of OIL. Because of MONEY and OIL. Period. Not ideology, not national security...MONEY and OIL.

So the BEST thing Obama's been doing is remaining as quiet as he has on this issue. It's kinda nice seeing him handle this in his way instead of the buffoonery we would have seen from Dubya.

[KC//CRIMSON]

LosAngelesSooner = Los Angeles Lakers
OklahomaTuba = Putnam City North

[Vaevictis]

Heh, pretty much.

You know how discrediting it is to some of you guys when Osamba Bin Laden praises what someone in the US is doing?

Yeah. A lot of the Muslim world has pretty much the same reaction when Western leaders speak up.

[XingTheRubicon]

LosAngelesSooner = Los Angeles Lakers
OklahomaTuba = Putnam City North



PCNorth - Sam Bradford - amateur Heisman winner

LALakers - Kobe Bryant - amateur rapist

[LosAngelesSooner]

Sam Bradford won the Heisman Trophy when he was at PC North?! Man...he really IS talented.

[MojoRisen]

So the BEST thing Obama's been doing is remaining as quiet as he has on this issue. It's kinda nice seeing him handle this in his way instead of the buffoonery we would have seen from Dubya.[/QUOTE]


Wait, OK Iran is good... Your crazy bro. Maybe if they quit saying they are going to melt isreal as soon as they have a nuke things would be a little better between for us. Also saying they want to mess us up.

Also IED's are Iran's Technology - and they were proven to be supplying it to Iraq insurgents and Al Q. Absolutely fact, even Iran admitted it but said it was being done by a Terror group - Repulic of IRAN or something and that the government was not responsible for it. Something along these lines with out having too google it. Fine if you think Obama being quit is good- defend Iran and blame Bush for Iran- Crazy and wishful thinking at best.

[Scott D]

Mojo sure does infer a lot of things I didn't see in other posts.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Know what your words mean. I.E.D. - Improvised Explosive Device.

Many times they're made out of undetonated ordinance, like unexploded U.S. cluster bombs.

IED's aren't ANYONE'S technology...they're a cluster of tech from anywhere the dirty little extremists can scrounge it up.

Now, please show me an article or press release where Iran admits to supplying arms to either Al Qaeda or the Iraqi extremists. Go ahead...GOOGLE it...

Also, rhetoric is just rhetoric. The second Iran launches a MISSLE at Israel instead of just having their pocket sized President stomp around and scream about how Israel is evil and should be pushed into the sea...THEN you can argue that Iran is a threat to Israel.

As it is, Israel is more concerned with Palestinians blowing themselves up in their markets...with I.E.D.s.

[Vaevictis]

Jesus christ, weren't any of you ever in high school?

We made IEDs too, but we called them "pipe bombs."

****, my grandfather taught my dad how to make IEDs before he was ten.

[Vaevictis]

Now, please show me an article or press release where Iran admits to supplying arms to either Al Qaeda or the Iraqi extremists. Go ahead...GOOGLE it...

And regarding this, it's a silly request. As is the claim that Iran -- the government of Iran, as opposed to some group within the borders of Iran -- admitted it.

It's just like when the US supplied arms to folks during the Cold War -- everyone does it, everyone knows everyone does it, nobody admits it.

[Harry Beanbag]

And regarding this, it's a silly request. As is the claim that Iran -- the government of Iran, as opposed to some group within it -- admitted it.

It's just like when the US supplied arms to folks during the Cold War -- everyone does it, everyone knows everyone does it, nobody admits it.


Yep. We captured Iranian soldiers in Iraq training insurgents and supplying arms, but you'll never see the Iranian government admit to anything, especially on Google.

[Scott D]

I saw the Iranian government admit that baby poop is pure concentrated evil exiting an infant's body on Google.

[Harry Beanbag]

I saw the Iranian government admit that baby poop is pure concentrated evil exiting an infant's body on Google.

Well, crap. I guess I was wrong then. :)

[Vaevictis]

Yep. We captured Iranian soldiers in Iraq training insurgents and supplying arms, but you'll never see the Iranian government admit to anything, especially on Google.

Feel free to show a credible report to that effect and prove me wrong.

[Harry Beanbag]

Feel free to show a credible report to that effect and prove me wrong.

A credible report to what? I was agreeing with you.

[Vaevictis]

A credible report to what? I was agreeing with you.

Sorry, my sarcasm meter must be busted.

[Vaevictis]

However, there is this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7901101.stm), in which Iran is reported to have claimed responsibility and the ability to turn the attacks off in private diplomatic discussions:


Roadside bombing attacks on British and American soldiers in Iraq were at their height in 2005.

The extent of Iran's role in arming and training those militias was uncertain.

Tehran denied a role, while British officials tended to hedge their accusations with references to 'circumstantial evidence'.
(...)
But now a senior British official has revealed that not only did the Iranians privately admit their involvement, they even made an astonishing offer to switch off the attacks in Iraq if in return the West would stop blocking Iran's controversial nuclear programme.

So, perhaps score one for Iran admitting this. That said, it's certainly not a public admission and one that still maintains deniability. ("No, no, it's just a misunderstanding in the translation. That's not what we meant at all. What we meant is that we have the ability to exert influence among these groups, and we are confident that if we were to do so, they would stand down.")

On the other hand, in the same article, perhaps score one for those who like diplomacy:


It emerges from interviews with both Iranian and American officials that after 11 September, 2001, Tehran collaborated so closely with the US in order to topple the Taleban and remove al-Qaeda from Afghanistan, that they even provided intelligence information to pinpoint military targets for bombing.

Hillary Mann, one of the US delegates, remembers how one Iranian military official pounded the table in his eagerness to get the Americans to change targets.

"He unfurled the map on the table and started to point to targets that the US needed to focus on, particularly in the north," she told the BBC.

"We took the map to Centcom, the US Central Command, and certainly that did become the US military strategy."

Over Iraq too, Iran's reformist President Mohammad Khatami offered to collaborate on ousting Saddam Hussein, arguing that the Iraqi leader was also Iran's enemy.

But relations deteriorated after former US President George W Bush accused Iran of being part of an "Axis of Evil".

Attempts at negotiations initiated by the Europeans in the end led nowhere.

[Harry Beanbag]

Here's one that shows the capturing part I talked about if that's what you were asking about above:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/06/AR2007110600853.html

[Ike]

this is obviously a complicated issue. On the one hand, I too would love for our President to speak strongly in support of the protesters. I want, and I'm sure he wants, these protesters to bring enough heat that eventually the Iranian gov't collapses and is replaced by a government that is at the very least, reasonable to deal with. But I also have to ask, which is more important to me; allowing a situation to continue to exist in which great pressure might be brought on the supreme leader, eventually leading to his ouster? Or whatever symbolic gestures we toss around over here. Frankly, when it comes to anything internal to Iran, we don't have a whole lot of bargaining chips. We can stop trading with them...that won't cost either of us much, especially since they like to threaten that they will cut off the oil supply from Iran. We could try to get sanctions imposed on them at the UN, but Russia and China would probably intercede and make that effort fruitless. Or we could attack.

In ANY of those situations, I could nearly gauran-damn-tee you that the Iranians would quickly kiss and make up with each other and unite behind whoever they thought would be best suited to stymie US efforts to 'meddle' in their affairs....and that would probably be Amininutjob.

So I'm alright with the Prez staying mum. He should. If the pressure inside Iran keeps ratcheting up, he should keep his options open. But IMO, we should absolutely avoid stepping in there unless a large enough movement asks for our help. Because if it's not a very large number of people keeping up the good fight and asking for our help, then we are just going to once again be seen as meddlers in that region, and we will be doing more harm to our own interests (and future national security) than good.

[MojoRisen]

Sure sounds like more than a Pipe bomb.... Iran is guilty as hell meldling in Iraq - we threatened Tactical Nuclear war if it continued.

Militarily, we should hold on to them," he told reporters and editors at The Washington Post on Oct. 5. But last week, Odierno said there had been a sharp decline in one type of roadside bomb, known as an explosively formed penetrator, or EFP, that can shatter the steel of armored Humvees.

[KC//CRIMSON]

PCNorth - Sam Bradford - amateur Heisman winner

LALakers - Kobe Bryant - amateur rapist


XingTheRubicon - Abuses Prescription Medications.....

[JohnnyMack]

Iran completely and totally controls the flow of insurgents both in and out of Iraq. To think otherwise is foolish.

There was a US News & World Report article detailing it at least 3 or 4 years ago.

[LosAngelesSooner]

And regarding this, it's a silly request. As is the claim that Iran -- the government of Iran, as opposed to some group within the borders of Iran -- admitted it.

It's just like when the US supplied arms to folks during the Cold War -- everyone does it, everyone knows everyone does it, nobody admits it.The only reason I requested it was because he claimed he had read such a release.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Iran completely and totally controls the flow of insurgents both in and out of Iraq. To think otherwise is foolish.

There was a US News & World Report article detailing it at least 3 or 4 years ago.Really? You don't think Syria, Jordan, Turkey or Saudi Arabia have any hand in the flow of insurgents into and out of Iraq?

[JohnnyMack]

I meant that specific border you knucklehead.

[Harry Beanbag]

The only reason I requested it was because he claimed he had read such a release.

No, you did it because you're an *******.

[Crucifax Autumn]

We all know I'm infuriatingly stuck in the middle but the part I find the funniest in this thread is the original post. Obama should be more like Reagan and support an organized labor movement!

I just find that rilly, rilly funny for some reason!

As for most of the rest of it...somehow you are all right!

[Vaevictis]

Here's one that shows the capturing part I talked about if that's what you were asking about above:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/06/AR2007110600853.html

Really, what I didn't believe was the public admission part.

I totally believe that there are/were Iranian agents operating in Iraq. It's silly to believe otherwise -- they pretty much have their own implied Monroe Doctrine for the region. Of course they're going to take umbrage with our interference in the region and take steps to try and screw us up.

But admitting it publicly? That's an overt act of war and despite our being stretched at this moment, I doubt Iran wants any part of a conventional war with us.

[Vaevictis]

Sure sounds like more than a Pipe bomb...

Of course it's more than a pipe bomb. The people making them are considerably more experienced than a teenager trying stuff out of The Anarchist's Cookbook.

It doesn't change the fact that IED's are exactly what their name says -- improvised explosive devices. You make them out of what materials you have. Claiming that they're an Iranian technology is just wrong.

[MojoRisen]

The EFP commonly now grouped with the term IED is Iranian Materials and Technology at least the ones found being used in Iraq. So to be perfectly accurate the EFP's now grouped with IED's just more dangerous that were used in Iraq were manufactured in Iran. This is why we kind of said we were going to use Tactical Nukes if they continued to mess around in Iraq. We were definitely going to probably do it - because it was an act of war. Just to the level that some Liberals could lobby that it is BS just to start a war with Iran- Bush may be a lot of things but I was pretty sure he wanted those dudes to stay in there own borders and quit adding gas too the fire.

[Vaevictis]

Fair enough. I won't argue that the origin of the nastiest IEDs in Iraq in most cases doesn't stem from Iran.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Fair enough. I won't argue that the origin of the nastiest IEDs in Iraq in most cases doesn't stem from Iran.
delete, I thought you were arguing they didn't come from Iran.

[Collier11]

Doubt he will say anything but he will likely hold his hand and chit chat

[Vaevictis]

delete, I thought you were arguing they didn't come from Iran.

Nah, my interpretation of one of your earlier statements was that IEDs were an Iranian technology. Which is just silly, right?

But, you've clarified that you were talking about specific types of IEDs in Iraq -- and that's not so silly.

[AggieTool]

<Sniffs Armpit>

[TheHumanAlphabet]

<Sniffs Armpit>

I can't get that prom pic avatar out of my mind. Damn funny!

[MojoRisen]

OK, not to beat a dead horse... but now to all Iranian supporters or just anti bush and Barack Supporters. Iran has now said that the US meddling and western influence in their current situation is in tolerable.. War of words.

All Barack said was this; I say just stay tough with those bastages - doesn do anything to even be nice or quite.

Obama has been criticized by some Republicans for his muted reaction to developments in Iran. The president said in an interview with CNBC on Tuesday that he shared the world’s concerns about the election but that he had to move cautiously because “the easiest way for reactionary forces inside Iran to crush reformers is to say it’s the U.S. that is encouraging those reformers.”

“What I’ve said is, look, it’s up to the Iranian people to make a decision,” he said. “We are not meddling.”

[LosAngelesSooner]

I meant that specific border you knucklehead.
Well, that's not what you said now, is it?

[LosAngelesSooner]

No, you did it because you're an *******.
Man...you LIKE getting those RedCards, don't you? :rolleyes:

He said there was such a release. I asked him to provide it. He CAN'T because there ISN'T any release.

None of that has ANYTHING to do with the fact that I'm an *******. I'm an ******* for completely different reasons. Now get back to your name calling, oh master of wit and debate.

[JohnnyMack]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6987306.stm

[LosAngelesSooner]

Dude I never said that Iran was remaining inactive regarding the insurgency in Iraq. I merely said that people need to know what the words they are using MEAN. IED means Improvised Explosive Device. That means they didn't come off some factory line and get put in a box and shipped to Iraq.

Everyone knows that there have been fighters coming over from Iran stirring up stuff. I don't think anyone on here would debate against that.

[JohnnyMack]

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3649942


The U.S. accuses Iran of fighting a proxy war in Iraq, as it smuggles sophisticated roadside bombs and long range rockets into the region that kill Iraqis and American troops.

"While claiming to support Iraq in its transition, Iran has actively undermined it by providing lethal capabilities to the enemies of the Iraqi state," Ambassador Ryan Crocker said during his testimony on the state of the war to Congress Sept. 10.

[OklahomaTuba]

Well, all I know is what my co-worker who lost her son told me, that she was told by a soldier who was serving with her son that they believed the device that killed him and others that day were made in Iran. This was in 2005, so probably wasn't as well known as it is now however.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Dollars to donuts that is exactly what the Soviet Politburo was saying. Support of Jarulzelksi didn't rest on some fancy notion of "communism", or "democracy" for that matter. Instead it was based on the notion of realpolitik, and perhaps that the Soviets had lost about 27 million citizens by way of Poland.

"Democracy and "rights" , pssssh, seriously, so you are a card carrying member of Amnesty now?

Somehow I don't think the Soviets were worried about German tanks rolling through Eastern Europe in 1981 when they had their Polish puppet shut down the protests. I think it was more of 'When it happens there, the dominoes lead to us.' Apparently they were right to think that way.

[OklahomaTuba]

Man...you LIKE getting those RedCards, don't you? :rolleyes:

OH NO, NO NO NO NOT THE RED CARD PLEASE ANYTHING BUT THE RED CARD!!!!

[Harry Beanbag]

Well, all I know is what my co-worker who lost her son told me, that she was told by a soldier who was serving with her son that they believed the device that killed him and others that day were made in Iran. This was in 2005, so probably wasn't as well known as it is now however.

There have been several links backing that up. He's just being deliberately obtuse.

[OklahomaTuba]

Everyone knows that there have been fighters coming over from Iran stirring up stuff. I don't think anyone on here would debate against that.
I think you actually tried to debate that once.

But you have a problem with facts and general common sense most of the time.

[OklahomaTuba]

There have been several links backing that up. He's just being deliberately obtuse.
Man, it was sad deal too. This kid was one hell of a smart kid, and a really good kid too. Dude was 19 I think.

Only the good ones. :(

[LosAngelesSooner]

OH NO, NO NO NO NOT THE RED CARD PLEASE ANYTHING BUT THE RED CARD!!!!
Ah, so you don't care about the rules of SF.com or the punishments meted out by the mods?

Good to know.


There have been several links backing that up. He's just being deliberately obtuse.
Uhm...no...there haven't.

There have been links about Iranian fighters coming over on their own, yes. Which I agree with. There have been no links about the Iranian government openly admitting to supporting the insurgency in Iran,AS WAS CLAIMED, and there has been nothing posted which refutes what the definition of IED is.

The post Tuba just made regarding the person killed by the roadside bomb now tells a different story than his initial one. And I have nothing to argue with his new post since he used words that meant what he was trying to say.


I think you actually tried to debate that once.No I didn't.

And, I know this is hard for you to comprehend, but just because you THINK something...doesn't mean it's REAL.


But you have a problem with facts and general common sense most of the time.heh....hehheh...
ha!...HAHA!
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BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA

OMFG.....

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STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPST OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[JohnnyMack]

There have been no links about the Iranian government openly admitting to supporting the insurgency in Iran,AS WAS CLAIMED

Dude, you lost this one. It's OK. It happens.

[JLEW1818]

Dude, you lost this one. It's OK. It happens.

finally somebody on the left says something!!!!!:)

[Harry Beanbag]

Dude, you lost this one. It's OK. It happens.


heh....hehheh...
ha!...HAHA!
HAHAHHAHAHAHA.....
BWAAAHHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA

OMFG.....

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPST OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[OklahomaTuba]

heh....hehheh...
ha!...HAHA!
HAHAHHAHAHAHA.....
BWAAAHHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA

OMFG.....

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPST OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Now THAT might be the most intelligent post you have ever written. EVAR.

Did you have any help with it???

[Harry Beanbag]

Now THAT might be the most intelligent post you have ever written. EVAR.

Did you have any help with it???


I think he may need a new jar of vaseline after that one.

[olevetonahill]

Dude I never said that Iran was remaining inactive regarding the insurgency in Iraq. I merely said that people need to know what the words they are using MEAN. IED means Improvised Explosive Device. That means they didn't come off some factory line and get put in a box and shipped to Iraq.

Everyone knows that there have been fighters coming over from Iran stirring up stuff. I don't think anyone on here would debate against that.

Can ya get those at Guns shows out there to ?:pop:

[JLEW1818]

I think he may need a new jar of vaseline after that one.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Harry Beanbag]

Can ya get those at Guns shows out there to ?:pop:


Haven't you heard the revision, the grenades and bazookas were readily available before 9/11, not since then. :) :rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

I think he may need a new jar of vaseline after that one.
:texan:

[olevetonahill]

Haven't you heard the revision, the grenades and bazookas were readily available before 9/11, not since then. :) :rolleyes:

But the IEDs should be plentiful right ? :D

[Scott D]

OK, not to beat a dead horse... but now to all Iranian supporters or just anti bush and Barack Supporters. Iran has now said that the US meddling and western influence in their current situation is in tolerable.. War of words.

All Barack said was this; I say just stay tough with those bastages - doesn do anything to even be nice or quite.

Obama has been criticized by some Republicans for his muted reaction to developments in Iran. The president said in an interview with CNBC on Tuesday that he shared the world’s concerns about the election but that he had to move cautiously because “the easiest way for reactionary forces inside Iran to crush reformers is to say it’s the U.S. that is encouraging those reformers.”

“What I’ve said is, look, it’s up to the Iranian people to make a decision,” he said. “We are not meddling.”

I'm just curious, what exactly is someone who you consider to be an "Iranian Supporter".

I mean because I'm sure TUSooner's wife has an income which would make him an "Iranian Co-spouse" not a Supporter.

Say we had an election that caused the kind of civil unrest they had. Would you want say....China meddling in US affairs? It's only natural that they're going to say "This is an internal problem, we don't want anyone else sticking their noses into our business."

Obama is right to the degree that we don't need to be stirring the hornet's nest that is buzzing over this situation no matter how tempting it is to openly support the "opposition" as it is.

What Tuba forgets is that comparing Poland in 1981 and Iran in 2009 is like comparing Gasoline with Sour Milk.

[olevetonahill]

What Tuba forgets is that comparing Poland in 1981 and Iran in 2009 is like comparing Gasoline with Sour Milk.

Well to be fair they be be nasty tastin :eek:

[My Opinion Matters]

Tuba + LAS=Greatness

Welcome back, guys.

[olevetonahill]

Tuba + LAS=Greatness

Welcome back, guys.

No shat ;)

[MojoRisen]

[QUOTE=Scott D;2632334]I'm just curious, what exactly is someone who you consider to be an "Iranian Supporter".

I mean because I'm sure TUSooner's wife has an income which would make him an "Iranian Co-spouse" not a Supporter.

I meant of the current regime, hey being quite or not- those hornets will blame us. They already are, go figure.

I support the young democratic persions....

Pretty soon- those boys are going to come home to roost if they keep messing in our affairs.

[Scott D]

I really doubt anyone here honestly supports the current regime in Iran.

In fact, you could argue that the only ones the current regime benefits are anyone with a "warhawk" mentality since it gives them their proverbial "Boogie Man in the closet."

[GrapevineSooner]

I enjoy a demonstration against the sitting government in a totalitarian country as much as the next guy.

But let's just say for the sake of argument that Gorilla Boy is over thrown. Does anybody think the regime that replaces him is going to be any more friendly towards America? Or truly any freer?

[MojoRisen]

The Supreme leader has the most too loose here if the violence continues... If he is found to be involved in the dictactorship - anything is possible.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Now THAT might be the most intelligent post you have ever written. EVAR.

Did you have any help with it???I was just laughing at how ridiculous you made yourself look, yet again.

And I'll expect you to engage in namecalling in yet another one of your negspeks, senior rulebreaker. ;)

Now, get back to posting incredibly hypocritical stuff that I can laugh at. :D

[LosAngelesSooner]

Dude, you lost this one. It's OK. It happens.
Pssssh. Hardly.

You shared links that show that Iran has supported the insurgency in Iraq. I never said that they didn't. I merely said that there was no link where the government of Iran claimed to be openly supporting the insurgency in Iraq, as was claimed.

All you did was show stuff that none of us disagreed with. Good jorb.

[Ike]

I enjoy a demonstration against the sitting government in a totalitarian country as much as the next guy.

But let's just say for the sake of argument that Gorilla Boy is over thrown. Does anybody think the regime that replaces him is going to be any more friendly towards America? Or truly any freer?

I think "Freer" is certainly possible. Friendly toward America? Probably not. Reasonably disagreeable*? Possible.

*What I mean by that is that while they may not be friendly, and they may still seek nukes, They could easily, I think, turn into a country that can see reality and at the least negotiate with us in good faith.

Maybe thats too much to expect, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.

[LosAngelesSooner]

heh....hehheh...
ha!...HAHA!
HAHAHHAHAHAHA.....
BWAAAHHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA

OMFG.....

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAA

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPST OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Now THAT might be the most intelligent post you have ever written. EVAR.

Did you have any help with it???


I think he may need a new jar of vaseline after that one.


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Haven't you heard the revision, the grenades and bazookas were readily available before 9/11, not since then. :) :rolleyes:


:texan:Don't mean to interrupt your little circlejerk, but I keep pwning you guys on this one and you can't seem to just admit it.

Carry on, kids. ;)

[Collier11]

LAS, youve never won an argument on here, sorry bud

[SoonerKnight]

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. 4
This much we pledge—and more.
[/url]



Sounds a little like this but not worded quite as well:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
This much we pledge—and more.
JFK 1961

[TUSooner]

LAS, youve never won an argument on here, sorry bud Well, I wouldn't quite say "never." ;)

But your statement reminds me of the words of Samuel Johnson: "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

Rough translation: "It's not my fault if you are to thick-headed or narrow-minded to know when you've been pwned." (Edit: "e.g., by LAS.")

Also:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2453/montypythonblackknight.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/montypythonblackknight.jpg/)

[Harry Beanbag]

But your statement reminds me of the words of Samuel Johnson: "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

Rough translation: "It's not my fault if you are to thick-headed or narrow-minded to know when you've been pwned."



LAS isn't going to like you talking about him like that. ;)

[StoopTroup]

Don't mean to interrupt your little circlejerk, but I keep pwning you guys on this one and you can't seem to just admit it.

Carry on, kids. ;)

I'm pretty sure this qualifies you for some kind of Goverment backed mental healthcare once Barry gets things running.

Good luck.

Get well soon. :D

[OklahomaTuba]

Wow, unbelievable! What a pantywaist.

Obama Seeks Way to Acknowledge Protesters Without Alienating Ayatollahhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061703850.html

[NYC Poke]

Wow, unbelievable! What a pantywaist.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061703850.html

Seeing as how the Ayatollah will be in charge no matter who is declared the victor, that seems like the conservative strategy.

[LosAngelesSooner]

LAS, youve never won an argument on here, sorry budFairness of argument: Has ANYONE ever "won" an argument on teh Intranets? ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

Seeing as how the Ayatollah will be in charge no matter who is declared the victor, that seems like the conservative strategy.Please, that's no where near a guarantee if the country would fall into chaos, which may yet still happen. Wonder how long he would last if the RGOI were to decide enough is enough? Not long I suspect.

[LosAngelesSooner]

LAS isn't going to like you talking about him like that. ;)You missed the point. Again. No surprise, I guess.

[Collier11]

I wins them allz

[NYC Poke]

Please, that's no where near a guarantee if the country would fall into chaos, which may yet still happen. Wonder how long he would last if the RGOI were to decide enough is enough? Not long I suspect.


I urge you to check out Andrew Sullivan's blog on The Atlantic. He's been following this election for a while, and he's been publishing tweets and photos that people within Iran have posted, and those are pretty fascinating in and of themselves.

Anyway, both Ahmadinejad and Mousavi are embracing the Revolution, meaning that it is popular within Iran and likely to survive any change of government. The Ayatollahs are very good at playing the secular politicians off of one another to avoid scrutiny of themselves. This will not last forever, but it will last through the end of this crisis.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e201157129039b970b-500wi

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/

[TUSooner]

Here's what I think, after seconds of careful rumination and even less time studying the facts. :rolleyes: The Mousavi supporters in Iran know that his policies may be only a trifle more moderate than Ahmedinejad's. But that "trifle" is huge, symbolically. Generally, educated Iranians don't want Iran to be a lackey of the West, and they want nuclear power (which may or may not include nuke weapons). They have no love of Israel and sypmathize with the Palestinians (Remember I'm generalizing - and roughly.) BUT, they don't see any reason why their nation's resources and whatever good will it has with other nations should be squandred on an endless and expensive hate campaign against either Israel or the US, which isolates their country and does the average Iranian no good whatsoever. They resent a "****ing hillbilly" like Ahmedinejad, who does little for the country but travels around the world making a donkey's butt out of himself and making all Iranians look stupid and fanatical. So ANY movement away from Ahmedinejad and toward policies of "reason over rhetoric" is verysignificant and evidently worth risking life and limb for ... so far.

What I fear is that this effort to move even slightly toward liberalism is going to result in a real crackdown by the most conservative Mullahs, using basiji thuggery, with the support of all the poorer and less educated people, who are always the pawns of the demagogues and hate mongers (even in the USA).

Although I would like to hear Obama say some stirring words about liberty (and I bet he could carry it off nicely), I see a reason for the reticence. Getting us involved now would open the door for all kinds of anti-American BS from Ahmedinejad, possibly provide an excuse for a real crackdown, and result it little if any practical benefit to our Nation, aside from making some of us happy for a few minutes. As noted, there'd be little apparent diff between Ahmediejad and Mousavi, so why risk your stake on a chance to win essentially nothing of value?

[TUSooner]

Fairness of argument: Has ANYONE ever "won" an argument on teh Intranets? ;)

Certainly not on the SO, and we have the detached limbs to prove it. :D

[OklahomaTuba]

I urge you to check out Andrew Sullivan's blog on The Atlantic...

Andrew Sullivan?

I mean, really, come on. You can do better than that wack job.

[NYC Poke]

Andrew Sullivan?

I mean, really, come on. You can do better than that wack job.

I don't care what you think about his politics, the images he's been posting are pretty remarkable.

[OklahomaTuba]

Getting us involved now would open the door for all kinds of anti-American BS from Ahmedinejad

Guess you haven't noticed, but thats happening already and is going to happen anyway.

[OklahomaTuba]

I don't care what you think about his politics, the images he's been posting are pretty remarkable.
Its not his politics, he is just literally a wack job.

And yeah, the images are something else I am sure. Hope he can still get them out once the armor start rolling in to crush the resistors.

[NYC Poke]

Its not his politics, he is just literally a wack job.

And yeah, the images are something else I am sure. Hope he can still get them out once the armor start rolling in to crush the resistors.


What he's been posting has been pretty interesting from a news reporting standpoint. The government has prohibited news media from reporting. They clamped down on the internet so people couldn't get news that way. A lot of what he's been posting has been tweets and cell phone images that were sent out that way. I'd always thought Twitter seemed pretty stupid, but in this case it allowed us to see what was going on.

[JohnnyMack]

Andrew Sullivan?

I mean, really, come on. You can do better than that wack job.

I submit this for, "Ironic Post of the Day".

[Scott D]

Guess you haven't noticed, but thats happening already and is going to happen anyway.

More importantly, why are you spoiling for a war that is not only a terrible idea, but just plain stupid? Is your job that dependent on us getting our hands on Iranian crude?

Like it or not Iran is still a sovereign nation, and has every right to tell the rest of the world to butt out of it's internal affairs.

[TUSooner]

Guess you haven't noticed, but thats happening already and is going to happen anyway.

Well that is true. But it might have more adverse effect power in Iran and elsewhere if we were actually "meddling."

Also, they don't need any additional excuses to crack down on dissent. My point is that our jumping in "just to feel good" could be counterproductive.

[Scott D]

Well that is true. But it might have more adverse effect power in Iran and elsewhere if we were actually "meddling."

Also, they don't need any additional excuses to crack down on dissent. My point is that our jumping in "just to feel good" could be counterproductive.

see Tuba hates those protesting Iranians, and is hoping they'll get cracked down on. He hates any sort of freedoms.

[StoopTroup]

More importantly, why are you spoiling for a war that is not only a terrible idea, but just plain stupid? Is your job that dependent on us getting our hands on Iranian crude?

Like it or not Iran is still a sovereign nation, and has every right to tell the rest of the world to butt out of it's internal affairs.

Good post Scott.

Again...we might not like the way other Countries do their business or treat their people...but this Country became great because it's People wanted something better than what England was dealing out to them. Our Forefathers fought them and won. I'm betting it wouldn't have turn out for us as well if Spain or France had fought for us while we sat back waiting for our Independence.

The Iranian People are going to have to handle this themselves. Now if Ahmadinejad starts a genocidal cleansing of his people...the World should step in.

It's just to soon to do it IMO.

[Collier11]

NM, I was in the wrong thread, lol

[Scott D]

see Tuba hates those protesting Iranians, and is hoping they'll get cracked down on. He hates any sort of freedoms.

Tuba must be thrilled now that Khamenei has threatened a crackdown. Now he and his buddies at the CBO can have a circle jerk with bar graphs about how beneficial this is to them.

[SoonerKnight]

Iranians (Persians) have a long history. Much of it had nothing to do with religious zealots that only seek greater power for themselves. We already know that Bozo #1 (Ahmadinejad) is a puppet of the Ayatollah. Bozo #2 (Musavi) ran on the idea of still having nuclear power but no nukes and he would allow the U.N. take a looksy to make sure. He also ran on the fact that Iran needed to join the international community to be prosperous. Remember that Bozo #1 has ruined the economy in Iran. They are not so happy the people that were once rich are poor and the poor are a lot poorer under Bozo #1's policies. High inflation, stagnant economy because of sanctions and too much battling with the west that will not win them much. Think Jimmy Carter economy X100. The people are unhappy and this election is just the culmination of events. Think if Carter had gotten a second term by cheating wew there would have been problems in the streets.

Iran is going to go through another revolution and it make get rid of the zealots who knows. I do know that before the revolution of the 1970's Iran was moderate. Also, Iran has a lot of oil but no refineries of it's own. :) That where we come in of course. :D

[Rogue]

They seem to be in the early stages of a revolution.

[OklahomaTuba]

They seem to be in the early stages of a revolution.
Might be a little bit more than early. If true, this is huge!!


Religious leaders are considering an alternative to the supreme leader structure after at least 13 people were killed in the latest unrest to shake Tehran and family members of former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, were arrested amid calls by former President Mohammad Khatami for the release of all protesters.

Iran's religious clerics in Qom and members of the Assembly of Experts, headed by Ayatollah Rafsanjani, are mulling the formation of an alternative collective leadership to replace that of the supreme leader, sources in Qom told Al Arabiya on condition of anonymity.http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/21/76567.html