The next financial crisis

[My Opinion Matters]

Those of us that reside in Oklahoma are aware that we are fortunate to have been, to a certain extent, insulated from the mortgage crisis. The next financial meltodown we won't be able to evade. While the mortgage crisis may have people's put homes in jeopardy, this looming collapse is going to put lives in jeopardy. I am, of course, talking about healthcare.

You're probably thinking "not this **** again", but it's distressing that most people aren't aware of how bad things really are. Medically speaking, this system is beyond being on life-support, it's in the final stages of a terminal illness.

The current healthcare model is unsustainable and it's spiraling downward. This isn't fear-mongering socialist propaganda. As someone in the industry, I see it everyday. The problem is a fundamental one--operating in healthcare is an incredibly difficult way to make a profit. Most services offered by hospitals lose money. The most critically essential departments-emergency rooms and ICU's-hemmorhage cash. High-margin hospital services such as radiology procedures and outpatient surgeries are designed to act as a counterweight to this. The problem is, people can't afford them anymore. I see this literally everyday...people are bypassing "elective" procedures because they are unable to meet their deductibles.

We're stuck in a vicious cycle right now. Insurance premiums are continually increased and benefits are reduced in order to subsidize the uninsured. The uninsured are not going to stop getting sick,they're not going to stop going to the Emergency Room for treatment, and the number of uninsured is growing. As the hosptial fees for the uninsured continues to go uncollected, debt mounts, the price of services have to be raised, the cost of insurance rises accordingly, all the while people's incomes have stagnated or decreased. I've been involved in the industry in some capacity for 8 years, and this is the way it has always been. However, the last 2-3 years this cycle has escalated to an alarming degree. It is not sustainable. The system is going to collapse under its own weight if it is allowed to continue down this path. The question is, what can be done about it?

[yermom]

we can gripe about new taxes and government intervention ;)

[walkoffsooner]

I agree. Let the insurance sucking thieves fall then start over.

[My Opinion Matters]

I agree. Let the insurance sucking thieves fall then start over.

Of course the problem with this is, you know, people will die and stuff.

[AimForCenterMass]

We're going to experience dramatic economic, environmental and social changes within the next few generations, regardless of what courses of action are taken today. The world population has been increasing exponentially, at a rate of 1.2% per year. If the population continues to increase at this rate, it will have doubled by the year 2048. In less than 40 years, our world could confine 13 billion inhabitants!

I'll do my best to locate the study for citation, but we are currently using 30% more of the earth's resources than can be naturally sustained. Resources like fresh water, food, land, oil, etc. are finite and an ever-increasing population places more competition for those resources. Within the next few decades, a booming economy of luxuries and services may give way to one of essential goods. This will cripple the American economy as we know it today, which is largely based on the consumption of things people want, rather than things they need.

I understand my post may seem negative, but it's simply acknowledging reality. The way we live, coupled with our rate of growth, is not sustainable. Dramatic change is inevitable.

[OklahomaTuba]

The question is, what can be done about it?

The debt load that this country had and that our current squanderer in chief has loaded us with is a much more dire crisis than anything going on in healthcare.

And government healthcare isn't going to solve a damn thing except run the private insurance industry into the ground and create another Government cluster**** like SS, Medicare and Medicaid.

[OklahomaTuba]

Awesome. From the CBO no less.....

According to our preliminary assessment, enacting the proposal would result in a net increase in federal budget deficits of about $1.0 trillion over the 2010-2019 period. When fully implemented, about 39 million individuals would obtain coverage through the new insurance exchanges. At the same time, the number of people who had coverage through an employer would decline by about 15 million (or roughly 10 percent), and coverage from other sources would fall by about 8 million, so the net decrease in the number of people uninsured would be about 16 million or 17 million.

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=293

Count me as one who doesn't think bankrupting this country and taking anymore of my paycheck in taxes is worth just 16-17 million people have free ****tay government health insurance.

[batonrougesooner]

Health insurance does not equal health care. These are two different things.

People in the U.S. do not go without health care. Anybody who needs health care can and will get it in this country. You present to any ER you will be provided the care you need, regardless of your ability to pay. You will be admitted to the hospital if you need further care. If you need surgery, you will get it. If you need admission to the ICU for a month, that will be done.

The problem is who pays? Alot of care is given away for free. Doctors who provide acute care in ERs and while taking call to cover ERs (like surgeons, cardiologists, internists, etc) give away in many cases as much free care in a year as they do care they actually get paid for. Think about that for a minute. What other industry can say this?

That is the problem. The reason your insurance and your hospital bills are so high is not because the hospitals and doctors are greedy. It's because you the paying citizen is financing the care of those who can not or will not pay for their care. Generally everybody gets Cadillac care, while some are left to buy two Cadillacs while others get theirs for free.

I have more to say but I'm tired. Just finished another night in the ER providing care regardless of ability to pay.

[picasso]

we can gripe about new taxes and government intervention ;)

don't act like there a certain people inside of Warshington that don't want to take over our health care system. it's been a target for decades and I'd dare say Obama has a woody for the very idea of it.

[oumartin]

So I pay 50.00 for a tylenol because of someones inability to pay their bill? There is no greed in this? BS

[batonrougesooner]

So I pay 50.00 for a tylenol because of someones inability to pay their bill? There is no greed in this? BS

You are not just paying for the tylenol. You are paying for the pharmacist to dispense it and the nurse to give it. Regulations state this must be done. You can go to your own bathroom and get a tylenol but the same tylenol in the hospital has to be dispensed by the pharmacist, placed in a secure and proprietary drug dispensing machine, double checked and withdrawn by a licensed nurse, and then given to you with a glass of water.

This is all a product of regulation either mandated by or consented to by your government.

[Okla-homey]

People are just living to danged long.

After we get gubmint healthcare with its rationed care model, when meemaw breaks her hip at age 86 when she already has heart trouble and diabetes, perhaps we can just put her down and stop the madness. Tht'll save us a ton!;)

Ditto these premies born to unwed medicaid teenaged moms. Let's stop with the millions per kid for months in the NICU and just drop them in a five gallon bucket filled with water like we dog breeders do with deformed puppies.

[tigepilot]

You are not just paying for the tylenol. You are paying for the pharmacist to dispense it and the nurse to give it. Regulations state this must be done. You can go to your own bathroom and get a tylenol but the same tylenol in the hospital has to be dispensed by the pharmacist, placed in a secure and proprietary drug dispensing machine, double checked and withdrawn by a licensed nurse, and then given to you with a glass of water.

This is all a product of regulation either mandated by or consented to by your government.

So now you're saying the government makes it more expensive?

[My Opinion Matters]

The debt load that this country had and that our current squanderer in chief has loaded us with is a much more dire crisis than anything going on in healthcare.

Right, because if history has taught us nothing it's that the most prudent course of action is to ignore the warning signs and wait until the industry utterly collapses.

[MojoRisen]

I would rather hire my own doctor with a SLA for a specific flat fee per year. Than go to Government Mandated Health care.

[OklahomaTuba]

Right, because if history has taught us nothing it's that the most prudent course of action is to ignore the warning signs and wait until the industry utterly collapses.

Sounds about like what is happening to our current debt levels, and our existing government run crap sandwiches called Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.


Here's an idear:

instead of imposing a 4th massive entitlement program for the gubmint to bankrupt us all with, lets fix the other 3 first????

Oh wait, that would require some common sense and wouldn't involve giving the government more power & money, so I guess that won't be happening anytime soon.

[StoopTroup]

I opened a snickers bar from a vending machine last night. It had an Ad from the Super Bowl inside the wrapper. I thought to myself..."Man it's freaking almost July and there are Snickers Bars in there that were probably made last year in there!". Then I got to wondering what Super Bowl it was from. Maybe it was even older than 1 year.

That's how you know things are getting really bad IMO.

It used to be that Snickers could really satisfy ya...after my last one...I felt a little unsatisfied.

:D

[OklahomaTuba]

So now you're saying the government makes it more expensive?

Heh, what doesn't the government make more expensive???

Besides, Its not about saving anyone any money. Its never been about saving money.

Its about power and control.

[OklahomaTuba]

And from the State Run MEdia (SRM) (formally the MSM):

ABC TURNS PROGRAMMING OVER TO OBAMA; NEWS TO BE ANCHORED FROM INSIDE WHITE HOUSE

On the night of June 24, the media and government become one, when ABC turns its programming over to President Obama and White House officials to push government run health care -- a move that has ignited an ethical firestorm!

Highlights on the agenda:

ABCNEWS anchor Charlie Gibson will deliver WORLD NEWS from the Blue Room of the White House.

The network plans a primetime special -- 'Prescription for America' -- originating from the East Room, exclude opposing voices on the debate. No opposing point of view will be presented.

Hope Charlie isn't wearing a blue dress, and that he brings his knee pads.

[StoopTroup]

http://www.snickers.com/img/snickers_noflash.jpg

[picasso]

I would rather hire my own doctor with a SLA for a specific flat fee per year. Than go to Government Mandated Health care.

This.

I've been to both and believe you me, the latter is a nightmare.

[StoopTroup]

I heard that President Obama believes nuts are good for what ails ya and that Mr. T will be in charge of health care.

http://www.mediazombies.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/snickers_0.jpg

It's probably just a rumor though.

[tigepilot]

Heh, what doesn't the government make more expensive???

Besides, Its not about saving anyone any money. Its never been about saving money.

Its about power and control.

The reason for asking the question is that it sounded like in the prior post he was suggesting the opposite.

[OklahomaTuba]

Government run healthcare is going to help CAUSE a financial crisis, not solve it.

Its only going to make things worse.

U.S. likely to lose AAA rating: Prechter

Technical analyst Robert Prechter on Monday said he sees the United States losing its top AAA credit rating by the end of 2010, as he stuck by a deeply bearish outlook on the U.S. economy and stock market.

Prechter, known for predicting the 1987 stock market crash, joins a growing coterie of market heavyweights in forecasting the United States will lose its top credit rating as the government issues trillions of dollars in debt to fund efforts to bail out the economy.http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55E6BM20090615

[StoopTroup]

So we haven't had a financial crisis yet?

Man this stuff is hard to follow.

[swardboy]

If we get government health care, where will the poor Canadians run to escape their gov't health care system? Over the pole to Russia?

[picasso]

So we haven't had a financial crisis yet?

Man this stuff is hard to follow.

read the papers. we're spending money at an all time high and I'm afraid it's going to get worse.

thank God I'm a wealthy artist.

[Lott's Bandana]

People are just living to danged long.





Boomers rule!

[StoopTroup]

read the papers. we're spending money at an all time high and I'm afraid it's going to get worse.

thank God I'm a wealthy artist.

I'm still finger painting most of my stuff....but I'm pretty good with a spray can or a gravity sprayer.

I use the papers to catch the over-spray.

[OklahomaTuba]

If we get government health care, where will the poor Canadians run to escape their gov't health care system? Over the pole to Russia?

Maybe we can model our healthcare industry after Cuba????

We are already doing that with our automotive and media industries!

[StoopTroup]

I like France's model better.

I could really use some paid time off while I recover from my last surgery. 2 maybe three years ought to do it.

[Boomer.....]

read the papers. we're spending money at an all time high and I'm afraid it's going to get worse.

thank God I'm a wealthy artist.

Brucelangelo?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

One way to stop the medical spiral is to limit legal tort and stop Dr.s from doing defensive medicine. 3/4ths of the stuff generated is to protect a particular diagnosis and to CYA. People are too lawsuit happy and Dr.s are way to vunerable because we just don't know that much of about the human body, we are exposed to a hell of a lot of stuff and Dr.s are just people with more intensive training than most people care to go through.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Those of us that reside in Oklahoma are aware that we are fortunate to have been, to a certain extent, insulated from the mortgage crisis. The next financial meltodown we won't be able to evade. While the mortgage crisis may have people's put homes in jeopardy, this looming collapse is going to put lives in jeopardy. I am, of course, talking about healthcare.

You're probably thinking "not this **** again", but it's distressing that most people aren't aware of how bad things really are. Medically speaking, this system is beyond being on life-support, it's in the final stages of a terminal illness.

The current healthcare model is unsustainable and it's spiraling downward. This isn't fear-mongering socialist propaganda. As someone in the industry, I see it everyday. The problem is a fundamental one--operating in healthcare is an incredibly difficult way to make a profit. Most services offered by hospitals lose money. The most critically essential departments-emergency rooms and ICU's-hemmorhage cash. High-margin hospital services such as radiology procedures and outpatient surgeries are designed to act as a counterweight to this. The problem is, people can't afford them anymore. I see this literally everyday...people are bypassing "elective" procedures because they are unable to meet their deductibles.

We're stuck in a vicious cycle right now. Insurance premiums are continually increased and benefits are reduced in order to subsidize the uninsured. The uninsured are not going to stop getting sick,they're not going to stop going to the Emergency Room for treatment, and the number of uninsured is growing. As the hosptial fees for the uninsured continues to go uncollected, debt mounts, the price of services have to be raised, the cost of insurance rises accordingly, all the while people's incomes have stagnated or decreased. I've been involved in the industry in some capacity for 8 years, and this is the way it has always been. However, the last 2-3 years this cycle has escalated to an alarming degree. It is not sustainable. The system is going to collapse under its own weight if it is allowed to continue down this path. The question is, what can be done about it?


I agree with you that the current system is unsustainable, I just don't understand how the only option on the table is a single payer system. To me there's too few payors not too many. When's the last time you consumed less of a good that somebody else was paying for? Think of the last wedding you went to. Were you going up to the bartender asking for PBR or Crown Royal?

Health care is not an unlimited commodity. It is a scarce resource and therefore must be rationed. Is the best way to ration that by having bureaucrats in Wash saying, 'OK. this year we pay for xx number of heart surgeries and xx number of MRIs, etc.'? This is how rationing occurs in a single payor system no matter how much Obama wants to say otherwise. This is how it's done everywhere with a SP system.

[TUSooner]

I think the frequent problem with the debate is shaping the issue as being a choice between the perfect status quo and crappy Brit-style, single-payer, socialized medicine. The status quo is not perfect, even though it's pretty darn good for people with good insurance. And there seem to be much better alternatives that the British National Health. Whoever tries to oversimplify - on either side - probably just doesn't understand the whole situation. (I sure don't.)

[StoopTroup]

Most folks are afraid of change. I know there are many great minds at work on these matters. The thing is...what we currently had is broken and getting worse. Maybe the current fix isn't the right thing to do...I just think our Country needs to be challenged to find a better solution for it's hard working taxpayers. We can't continue to have our benefits continue to shrink while we watch one of our loved ones die because the fight with the insurance company is to hard, compounded with watching their illness worsen or watch them die unnecessarily.

This is a great Country.

I know the Medical Community has watched their profession turn into a very undesirable profession the last 20-30 years. This all didn't happen overnight and the fix might even take longer. Hopefully we'll see our Government stay on the side of what is humanly possible than what is politically suicidal.

[JohnnyMack]

The debt load that this country had and that our current squanderer in chief has loaded us with is a much more dire crisis than anything going on in healthcare.

And government healthcare isn't going to solve a damn thing except run the private insurance industry into the ground and create another Government cluster**** like SS, Medicare and Medicaid.

Tuba, your intellectual dishonesty is really pathetic.

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba, your intellectual dishonesty is really pathetic.
About what exactly?

[JohnnyMack]

About what exactly?

Your continual efforts at turning American politics in to a dichotomy of good vs. evil, my side vs. your side and right vs. wrong is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps people like Sean Hannity employed. Your inability to grasp (or at least at admit) the systemic failures that have plagued our government and in turn our people is what makes you seem so ridiculous. Maybe you're not the one-trick pony you play on this message board, at least I hope.

Our nation has been crippled not by a Democrat or a Republican, but by politicians who have been given too much and not held accountable for their actions.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Our nation has been crippled not by a Democrat or a Republican, but by politicians who have been given too much and not held accountable for their actions.

Storngly agree with this. Most people are unwilling to vote out the rep or want the gravy train to continue. Too much patronage in D.C., too much seniority. Limit terms in Congress and go back to appointing Senators with state legislature approvals with a limit on their terms as well. Perhaps then, things will get done for the sake of the nation, and not to maintain office.

[OklahomaTuba]

Your continual efforts at turning American politics in to a dichotomy of good vs. evil, my side vs. your side and right vs. wrong is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps people like Sean Hannity employed. Your inability to grasp (or at least at admit) the systemic failures that have plagued our government and in turn our people is what makes you seem so ridiculous. Maybe you're not the one-trick pony you play on this message board, at least I hope.

Our nation has been crippled not by a Democrat or a Republican, but by politicians who have been given too much and not held accountable for their actions.
Nice insane message board ranting and all, but please, what exactly am I saying that you deem to be "intellectual dishonest"?

Or did you just want a good excuse to rant like a crazed school kid?????

[tigepilot]

Our nation has been crippled not by a Democrat or a Republican, but by politicians who have been given too much and not held accountable for their actions.

At least to this point I agree. By the time the elections happen, there's so damn much finger pointing, and misinformation for that matter, I think most voters forget who should be blamed or credited with what. Instead, people then vote mostly on promises which have no chance of being fulfilled.

[JohnnyMack]

Nice insane message board ranting and all, but please, what exactly am I saying that you deem to be "intellectual dishonest"?

Or did you just want a good excuse to rant like a crazed school kid?????

Specifically I'm referring to your continued rant that BHO's budget is the reason we're in the financial situation we're in. That budget doesn't even go into effect for another 4 months or so. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge W's share of the responsibility for helping to cause this mess.

[My Opinion Matters]

I agree with you that the current system is unsustainable, I just don't understand how the only option on the table is a single payer system. To me there's too few payors not too many. When's the last time you consumed less of a good that somebody else was paying for? Think of the last wedding you went to. Were you going up to the bartender asking for PBR or Crown Royal?

Health care is not an unlimited commodity. It is a scarce resource and therefore must be rationed. Is the best way to ration that by having bureaucrats in Wash saying, 'OK. this year we pay for xx number of heart surgeries and xx number of MRIs, etc.'? This is how rationing occurs in a single payor system no matter how much Obama wants to say otherwise. This is how it's done everywhere with a SP system.

I think you misunderstood me.We're in agreement. You're restating what I said. To extend your metaphor further, the bartender is overworked, running out of booze, and can't afford to purchase new inventory because he's given away too many drinks.

This isn't thinly veiled rhetoric justifying socialized medicine. I wasn't even implying that. What I am advocating is a heightened awareness to the severity of the problem. People shouldn't be so terrified by the phrase healthcare reform.

[picasso]

Specifically I'm referring to your continued rant that BHO's budget is the reason we're in the financial situation we're in. That budget doesn't even go into effect for another 4 months or so. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge W's share of the responsibility for helping to cause this mess.

I'm not ready to cast stones but there's also a thing in the market called confidence. and Obama has instilled zippo.

[OklahomaTuba]

Specifically I'm referring to your continued rant that BHO's budget is the reason we're in the financial situation we're in.
When have I ever blamed him for that??

I think its more than dishonest on your part to suggest that I have blamed the whole thing on him.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm not ready to cast stones but there's also a thing in the market called confidence. and Obama has instilled zippo.

What does that have to do with what I'm talking about?

[OklahomaTuba]

I'm not ready to cast stones but there's also a thing in the market called confidence. and Obama has instilled zippo.

Really? I can't imagine why not...
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/files/2009/04/obamadebt.jpg

[JohnnyMack]

When have I ever blamed him for that??

I think its more than dishonest on your part to suggest that I have blamed the whole thing on him.

Wait. This is my fault? Wow. Your deflector shields are certainly on high today.

[OklahomaTuba]

Wait. This is my fault? Wow. Your deflector shields are certainly on high today.

heh.

Not as high as your BS torpedoes however.

I wonder, do you rant like a sissy girl in real life as well, or is it something you save up just for internet message boards???

[JohnnyMack]

heh.

Not as high as your BS torpedoes however.

I wonder, do you rant like a sissy girl in real life as well, or is it something you save up just for internet message boards???

It sure is fun to watch you get your hackles up and get all defensive when someone points out some of the more obvious flaws in your rationale.

[OU_Sooners75]

Of course the problem with this is, you know, people will die and stuff.

People have been dying and stuff everyday since the existence of mankind.

What is the difference?

[Vaevictis]

People have been dying and stuff everyday since the existence of mankind.

What is the difference?

The difference is that you're asking people who are ready and able to save someone to instead stand by and watch people die.

That's a pretty monstrous proposition, and I don't know about you, but as for me, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a doctor who was capable of doing that.

[Vaevictis]

Victim: Help! Someone just shot and robbed me. I'm bleeding to death.
Passerby: Hey, I've got a cell phone. I could call 911 for you.
Victim: Please, please. Please call 911.
Passerby: Sure. Got $20?
Victim: No, I was just robbed. I've got no money. Please, help me, I'm bleeding to death. I have kids and a wife. Please!
Passerby: Oh. No money. That's too bad. *walks away*

[OklahomaRed]

You are not just paying for the tylenol. You are paying for the pharmacist to dispense it and the nurse to give it. Regulations state this must be done. You can go to your own bathroom and get a tylenol but the same tylenol in the hospital has to be dispensed by the pharmacist, placed in a secure and proprietary drug dispensing machine, double checked and withdrawn by a licensed nurse, and then given to you with a glass of water.

This is all a product of regulation either mandated by or consented to by your government.

Can you say get the lawyers off everyone's payroll and we can solve the heathcare cost issue overnight. :D

[85Sooner]

Health insurance should be used like any other insurance. You don't use Home insurance when you need to change your water heater, appliances etc... You don't use your car insurance for oil changes, tuneups etc....

All medical facilities should have a cash price posted for services. Insurance is to be used for serious conditions, not colds, stitches, a broken arm etc...

That would be a good start.

[OklahomaTuba]

Fortunately, it sounds like this crap sandwich is slowly getting flushed down the toilet.


“Congressional Democrats and the White House are scrambling to regain their footing after a series of setbacks has stalled political momentum to reform the nation’s healthcare system. . . . A cost estimate hanging a $1 trillion price tag on an incomplete bill, salvos from powerful interest groups and great uncertainty among key Democrats on what will actually be in the legislation that moves through Congress have emboldened Republican critics.”http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-reel-on-healthcare-2009-06-16.html

[Dio]

Health insurance should be used like any other insurance. You don't use Home insurance when you need to change your water heater, appliances etc... You don't use your car insurance for oil changes, tuneups etc....

All medical facilities should have a cash price posted for services. Insurance is to be used for serious conditions, not colds, stitches, a broken arm etc...

That would be a good start.

This

[Position Limit]

the financial crisis of health care that you put forth is not a crisis at all. and really nothing financial about. the real financial crisis coming is the state and municipal undfunded pensions. also, state and local unfunded budgets. credit downgrades are imminent.

[MojoRisen]

The pensions were to generous anyhow.... Just because you work for Fed gov or state gov doesn't mean you can keep your pension and force taxes on us who don't have em. Or had generous companies who manage them well...

[Position Limit]

The pensions were to generous anyhow.... Just because you work for Fed gov or state gov doesn't mean you can keep your pension and force taxes on us who don't have em. Or had generous companies who manage them well...

you may be right. it's up for debate, still doesnt change the fact that the are obligations. obligations that are growing all the time. it's not a problem until it is. and like everything else it'll be too late. all of this hysteria about health care and financial crisis is nonsense.

[My Opinion Matters]

you may be right. it's up for debate, still doesnt change the fact that the are obligations. obligations that are growing all the time. it's not a problem until it is. and like everything else it'll be too late. all of this hysteria about health care and financial crisis is nonsense.

Right. Because you're Time Traveling Jesus and posess knowledge of all things past and future.

[MojoRisen]

you may be right. it's up for debate, still doesnt change the fact that the are obligations. obligations that are growing all the time. it's not a problem until it is. and like everything else it'll be too late. all of this hysteria about health care and financial crisis is nonsense.

Well, I agree with you... It's too bad, but the finger pointing on the Gov Pensions should be pointed directly at the government not the US Tax payer. Directly at Government that can't work out it's differences on the issues that matter to Americans.

As for Healthcare - another Trillion bucks at minimum and terrible coverage..

[JohnnyMack]

Here's another choice for "The next financial crisis":

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.6cc88b76aff9be3f90f62526a3107ec 9.31&show_article=1

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I think you misunderstood me.We're in agreement. You're restating what I said. To extend your metaphor further, the bartender is overworked, running out of booze, and can't afford to purchase new inventory because he's given away too many drinks.

This isn't thinly veiled rhetoric justifying socialized medicine. I wasn't even implying that. What I am advocating is a heightened awareness to the severity of the problem. People shouldn't be so terrified by the phrase healthcare reform.


Well then we are in agreement. I wasn't trying to imply that you were advocating government run healthcare. My rant was a general disdain with the current debate that we only seem to have two options: government healthcare or do nothing. Neither of these are good options but, of the two, I'll take do nothing - that's probably only because I have insurance.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

the financial crisis of health care that you put forth is not a crisis at all. and really nothing financial about. the real financial crisis coming is the state and municipal undfunded pensions. also, state and local unfunded budgets. credit downgrades are imminent.

That's nothing. What about the $100 trillion in unfunded Federal liabilities (Social Security and Medicare). Nobody seems to want to talk about that. It's a very forward looking leadership that we have - basically what gets me to the next election.

[OklahomaTuba]

That doesn't even mention the UNDER-funded pensions that many of these unions have, and that will be covered by the tax-payer thanks to the wagoner act.

So I guess once your talking about a number in the $100 Trillion+ range, does it really matter if we sink another 3-4 $trillion to cover another 16 million people or so??

Its all going to come crashing down at some point. Might as well enjoy the ride in good health!