Court: Oklahoma 10 Commandments Display Is Religious

[JohnnyMack]

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone with common sense, but around here you never know.

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10500759


Court: Oklahoma 10 Commandments Display Is Religious
Posted: Jun 09, 2009 7:14 AM CDT Updated: Jun 09, 2009 7:14 AM CDT

Associated Press

DENVER (AP) -- A federal appeals court in Denver rules that a Ten Commandments monument outside the Haskell County, Oklahoma, courthouse endorses religion.

A three-judge panel of the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said Monday the monument has the primary effect of endorsing religion when taken in context with the small community of Stigler, where it sits.

The panel sent the case back to U.S. District Judge Ronald A. White so he could issue a new ruling consistent with their ruling. White in 2006 rejected arguments that the monument promotes Christianity at the expense of other religions.

County Commissioner Mitch Worsham says officials are considering an appeal.

The privately funded stone monument was erected in 2004.

The panel also noted that one of the commissioners said at the installation ceremony that quote, "That's what we're trying to live by, that right there. The good Lord died for me."

The Oklahoma Legislature approved placing a 3-by-6-foot monument of the Ten Commandments on the state Capitol grounds.

[C&CDean]

Let's see, don't kill, lie, cheat, steal, lust after what ain't yours, worship idols, and be an all-around slob. I ain't got a problem with something that says all that.

[tommieharris91]

Let's see, don't kill, lie, cheat, steal, lust after what ain't yours, worship idols, and be an all-around slob. I ain't got a problem with something that says all that.

I like your version more than the one given to Moses.

[OhU1]

Set the monument in the church yard, your home, or at your business. Errect a 100 foot tall cross if you like. Just no need to put it on public property IMO.

[Collier11]

Direct correlation between the rise in violence and the removal of prayer from school and religious monuments/documents in public, especially in school

[Collier11]

Set the monument in the church yard, your home, or at your business. Errect a 100 foot tall cross if you like. Just no need to put it on public property IMO.

Yea cus in this country we cater to every friggin minority group around. This isnt about equal rights, this is about people being offended about something that in no way should be seen as offensive.

[AggieTool]

Direct correlation between the rise in violence and the removal of prayer from school and religious monuments/documents in public, especially in school

Yes,

Because an invisible sky god and fear of damnation is what kept those kids in line.:D

You do know that correlation is not the same thing as "causation" don't you?

How about these...

- Removing the ability for teachers and schools to adequately discipline or remove unruly students.

- Limiting parent's ability to discipline their own children.

- Failing to hold parents accountable for their children's actions.

- Promoting abstinence (like the invisible guy told us to) instead of common sense birth control in schools.

Now we have unwed mothers ill equipped to raise children properly.

But if praying to deities makes kids behave better, I'm all for it.:D

[AggieTool]

worship idols

What's yer beef with this?:confused:

[My Opinion Matters]

Direct correlation between the rise in violence and the removal of prayer from school and religious monuments/documents in public, especially in school

Not this **** again.

[TUSooner]

Direct correlation between the rise in violence and the removal of prayer from school and religious monuments/documents in public, especially in school

As noted: correlation is not causation. At best, you grossly oversimplify; at worst, well, never mind.

Too many well-meaning Christians mistake compulsory, superficial displays of piety with truly moral living. Most people in prison are not there just because nobody told them about the 10 Commandments.

That said, some kind of moral instruction has a critical place in public education, especially when it's lacking at home, and especially in lower grades. Of course, I sent my kids to religious schools (Lutheran and Catholic) but still darn sure didn't rely on those schools to do my job for me.

[OhU1]

Yea cus in this country we cater to every friggin minority group around. This isnt about equal rights, this is about people being offended about something that in no way should be seen as offensive.

Can you tell me why you feel entitled to public affirmation of and governmental promotion of your religious beliefs? Besides, doesn't governmental involvement diminish or "cheapen" the expressed religious views?

[JLEW1818]

If you don't like America... leave!!!! Obama that includes you!!! We don't need you!!!! we don't need your change!!!!


:)

[Collier11]

Yes,

Because an invisible sky god and fear of damnation is what kept those kids in line.:D

You do know that correlation is not the same thing as "causation" don't you?

How about these...

- Removing the ability for teachers and schools to adequately discipline or remove unruly students.

- Limiting parent's ability to discipline their own children.

- Failing to hold parents accountable for their children's actions.

- Promoting abstinence (like the invisible guy told us to) instead of common sense birth control in schools.

Now we have unwed mothers ill equipped to raise children properly.

But if praying to deities makes kids behave better, I'm all for it.:D

Then by all means ;) I think all of that has to do with it, our schools and many parents cater to their children, are too chicken sh*t or lazy to discipline them, etc...


Not this **** again.

:D , sorry I couldnt help it


Can you tell me why you feel entitled to public affirmation of and governmental promotion of your religious beliefs? Besides, doesn't governmental involvement diminish or "cheapen" the expressed religious views?


I dont feel entitled, my bigger beef isnt necessarily the fact that my chosen religion and beliefs cant be displayed, it is more with the frustration that when one person or one particular group start b*tching, we have to make sure not to hurt their feelings. The Ten Commandments is less of pushing Christianity and more of pushing moral law that really wouldnt hurt anyone to follow, Christian or not

[olevetonahill]

Some on the Left seem to think we have our heads in the sand when we say This Country was Founded on Christian Principles.

Well I aint Far right nor far left and I will say it

Those who say not, are the ones with their heads somewhere:D
Maybe Yall need to get after Obama , He seems to use " Jesus Christ " a lot :P

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090609/pl_politico/23510

[AggieTool]

Some on the Left seem to think we have our heads in the sand when we say This Country was Founded on Christian Principles.

Well I aint Far right nor far left and I will say it

Those who say not, are the ones with their heads somewhere:D
Maybe Yall need to get after Obama , He seems to use " Jesus Christ " a lot :P

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090609/pl_politico/23510

Yep, this country was founded on Christian principles.

Too bad Americans seem hung up on this instead of just acting....Christlike.;)

[My Opinion Matters]

I'm pretty sure Christ would have wanted voting rights for blacks and women.

[Collier11]

Thats called free will, unfortunately back then and now many Christians didnt act as such

[My Opinion Matters]

Which is the perfect example of why that line of reasoning is flawed.

[olevetonahill]

I'm pretty sure Christ would have wanted voting rights for blacks and women.

Yup
there wasn't slavery back in the times of Christ either were there ? :rolleyes:

[JLEW1818]

I'm sure God thinks the killing of innocent babies is wrong.................

yet the same party wants to keep murders alive.................

[My Opinion Matters]

Yup
there wasn't slavery back in the times of Christ either were there ? :rolleyes:

Your point being...

:confused:

[AggieTool]

Yup
there wasn't slavery back in the times of Christ either were there ? :rolleyes:

Noooo....

Just really poor collective bargaining agreements.:D

[olevetonahill]

Which is the perfect example of why that line of reasoning is flawed.

Its not a "Line of reasoning " Its a fact jack :rolleyes:
Christian principles and believes , Have been changing since the Christian faith 1st came about
IE the Crusades and such .

I dint say it was right or correct
Just said it was fact .:P

[olevetonahill]

Your point being...

:confused:

Point being , Christ didn't Denounce slavery . He advocated Fair and Just treatment for Slaves .

[My Opinion Matters]

I'm sure God thinks the killing of innocent babies is wrong...............

Since you brought it up, there's a corrollary between Roe vs. Wade and the decline in crime rate starting in the early 90's.

[Soonrboy]

Direct correlation between the rise in violence and the removal of prayer from school and religious monuments/documents in public, especially in school

I think it has more to do with families removing prayer from the HOME. Your beef shouldn't be with the schools, but the parents and families. They are the ones who should be raising the kids, not the schools.

[tommieharris91]

I'm sure God thinks the killing of innocent babies is wrong.................

yet the same party wants to keep murders alive.................

Isn't all killing wrong? Let the murderers' time come while they're getting their **** pushed in jail. Leave God to determine when that time is, and leave God to determine where they go in the afterlife.

[Collier11]

I'm sure God thinks the killing of innocent babies is wrong.................

yet the same party wants to keep murders alive.................

exactly


Its not a "Line of reasoning " Its a fact jack :rolleyes:
Christian principles and believes , Have been changing since the Christian faith 1st came about
IE the Crusades and such .

I dint say it was right or correct
Just said it was fact .:P


quite frankly, this country needs a nice moral cleansing, Christians on down. What are these people afraid of, those Ten Commandments might catch on fire and burn all the sinners alive, maybe they will jump off the stand and hit someone in the head, cus we all know they are nothing but thoughts and beliefs which in theory have no more constraint than these so-called rights that are being attacked

[olevetonahill]

Since you brought it up, there's a corrollary between Roe vs. Wade and the decline in crime rate starting in the early 90's.

Betcha gonna Prove that with Statistics and Graphs huh ?:D

[My Opinion Matters]

Point being , Christ didn't Denounce slavery . He advocated Fair and Just treatment for Slaves .

You don't see a problem with this?

[AggieTool]

Point being , Christ didn't Denounce slavery . He advocated Fair and Just treatment for Slaves.

Well hell I can do that.:confused:

Where can I get some?:P

[tommieharris91]

quite frankly, this country needs a nice moral cleansing, Christians on down. What are these people afraid of, those Ten Commandments might catch on fire and burn all the sinners alive, maybe they will jump off the stand and hit someone in the head, cus we all know they are nothing but thoughts and beliefs which in theory have no more constraint than these so-called rights that are being attacked

Be careful what you wish for and only let those without sin cast the first stone...

[Collier11]

I think it has more to do with families removing prayer from the HOME. Your beef shouldn't be with the schools, but the parents and families. They are the ones who should be raising the kids, not the schools.

Agreed, as a whole though it is about responsibility for all people which seems to be lacking


Isn't all killing wrong? Let the murderers' time come while they're getting their **** pushed in jail. Leave God to determine when that time is, and leave God to determine where they go in the afterlife.

Dont tell them that, you are taking their rights away again

[My Opinion Matters]

Slavery!

Hell, Christ practically endorsed it!

[olevetonahill]

You don't see a problem with this?

You sure like to twist things don't ya ?
I didn't say Slavery was right
Just pointing out FACTs
This was about the 10 Commandments , Not slavery , so Ill be pushed that No farther than this is now .

[AggieTool]

Point being , Christ didn't Denounce slavery . He advocated Fair and Just treatment for Slaves .

I don't suppose something crazy like FREEING THEM would fall into the "Fair and Just" treatment category.:D

[tommieharris91]

Dont tell them that, you are taking their rights away again

Being found guilty of murder is a pretty good reason to take away someone's rights.

[Collier11]

You don't see a problem with this?

The point is that Christ didnt interfere, he never has. He has always left it up to us to do things as we see fit, doesnt mean they were right. Thats the whole free will thing. God said treat your neighbor as you would want to be treated, love everyone including your enemies, if you dont then that is on you, not God

[olevetonahill]

Be careful what you wish for and only let those without sin cast the first stone...

There ya go .

I'm Not advocating Nor denouncing, Just stating Facts .
Or rather what I believe the Bible has taught .

[olevetonahill]

I don't suppose something crazy like FREEING THEM would fall into the "Fair and Just" treatment category.:D

Actually I beleive Freeing Slaves was a Requirement under the Old Law IE Mosaic .

every 7 years I think .:P

[JLEW1818]

I'd like to see rape = life in prison, or just get shot in the head......I'm a weird righty....... I'm believe in cruel and unusual punishment, if you did a cruel murder to somebody else..... ;)

[Collier11]

Im ok with rape, child molestation, and 1st degree murder all being delt with very harshly, hell let Cheney and Rumsfeld punish them ;)

[My Opinion Matters]

You sure like to twist things don't ya ?
I didn't say Slavery was right
Just pointing out FACTs
This was about the 10 Commandments , Not slavery , so Ill be pushed that No farther than this is now .

The only thing I'm "twisting" is imprudent ascriptions to their logical conclusions.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Frankly, I don't care about it and don't see the big deal BUT that's because I'm on a certain side this time. I know we'd all go crazy if some town put the Qur'an on some government property or you had to swear on it when you went to court. Also if some Scientology stuff came up I know people would go crazy.

Christians, only half of the commandments are law and the rest are good ideas. No sale.
Atheist, you're not smarter than everybody else.

There, everybody sucks now. Who's on for lunch?

[olevetonahill]

The only thing I'm "twisting" is imprudent ascriptions to their logical conclusions.

:rolleyes:

[Collier11]

Also if some Scientology stuff came up I know people would go crazy.


[hairGel] ITS A CULT





:D

[BornandBred]

America may have been founded by men with Christian principles but what they wanted most specifically was a separation of church and state, not a state endorsed religious symbol, even it was for the God they worshiped.

[My Opinion Matters]

The problem with people like Colly is they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. He asserts that America was founded as a Christian nation, yet dismisses slavery as an unfortunate symptom of free will while simultaneously condeming those that are exercising their free will through protest...

:confused:

[NYC Poke]

The only thing I'm "twisting" is imprudent ascriptions to their logical conclusions.


AFCM?

[My Opinion Matters]

AFCM?

I was tempted to say "deconstructing illogical platforms."

I really was.

[olevetonahill]

America may have been founded by men with Christian principles but what they wanted most specifically was a separation of church and state, not a state endorsed religious symbol, even it was for the God they worshiped.

I see it a lil different.
I dont think ir was a "Separation " deal as it was a Freedom to worship (Or Not ) as we see fit
Hence the No Established religion deal.
See our founders was kinda sick of the Church of England being shoved down their throats ;)

[Collier11]

The problem with people like Colly is they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. He asserts that America was founded as a Christian nation, yet dismisses slavery as an unfortunate symptom of free will while simultaneously condeming those that are exercising their free will through protest...

:confused:

1st of all, there is a big diff between A Christian nation and being founded on Christian principles...through all your big talk I figured you could understand that since I never claimed the 1st.

2nd, I never dismissed slavery, you really need to brush up on reading comprehension. I simply said that Christ taught us that you treat all men equal, as you would want to be treated, slavery was an unfortunate result of free will which all of us take advantage of at some point or another. But God doesnt intervene in the decisions, he just shows you how to act

[Fraggle145]

Frankly, I don't care about it and don't see the big deal BUT that's because I'm on a certain side this time. I know we'd all go crazy if some town put the Qur'an on some government property or you had to swear on it when you went to court. Also if some Scientology stuff came up I know people would go crazy.

Christians, only half of the commandments are law and the rest are good ideas. No sale.
Atheist, you're not smarter than everybody else.

There, everybody sucks now. Who's on for lunch?

Actually there is a town in Georgia I forget the name that went through something like this and the resolution was that if they were going to have the 10 commandments they had to let other groups display their symbols etc... They ended up with a flying spaghetti monster monument on the fornt lawn of the courthouse. :D

Edit: Sorry it was Tennessee... http://www.wired.com/underwire/2008/04/flying-spaghett/

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/underwire/images/2008/04/01/pastamonster_2.jpg

[Collier11]

Actually there is a town in Georgia I forget the name that went through something like this and the resolution was that if they were going to have the 10 commandments they had to let other groups display their symbols etc... They ended up with a flying spaghetti monster monument on the fornt lawn of the courthouse. :D

LOL

http://reporting.journalism.ku.edu/fall08/adler-noland/assets_c/2008/12/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster_2-thumb-514x514.jpg

[My Opinion Matters]

1st of all, there is a big diff between A Christian nation and being founded on Christian principles...through all your big talk I figured you could understand that since I never claimed the 1st.

2nd, I never dismissed slavery, you really need to brush up on reading comprehension. I simply said that Christ taught us that you treat all men equal, as you would want to be treated, slavery was an unfortunate result of free will which all of us take advantage of at some point or another. But God doesnt intervene in the decisions, he just shows you how to act

My point is that whether you realize it or not, you're using the free will card to not only defend your position but also incriminate it.

[olevetonahill]

Actually there is a town in Georgia I forget the name that went through something like this and the resolution was that if they were going to have the 10 commandments they had to let other groups display their symbols etc... They ended up with a flying spaghetti monster monument on the fornt lawn of the courthouse. :D

Edit: Sorry it was Tennessee... http://www.wired.com/underwire/2008/04/flying-spaghett/


Yup as long as Taxpayer Monies aint wasted on this stuff , Its privately set and privately maintained
I could not care one way or the other on who puts what where .
Kinda Like i am wit the Gheys,:D

[imjebus]

Direct correlation between the rise in violence and the removal of prayer from school and religious monuments/documents in public, especially in school


bullsquat. Show me the proof of that one. It could be attributed to alot of things alot of people tie it to that because it suits their views.

[Fraggle145]

Yea cus in this country we cater to every friggin minority group around. This isnt about equal rights, this is about people being offended about something that in no way should be seen as offensive.

IMO this is about the fact that the government shouldnt cater to any religious group. Majority or minority.

Its not offensive. Its religious and has no place on public property.

[Collier11]

I could not care one way or the other on who puts what where .
Kinda Like i am wit the Gheys,:D

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Fraggle145]

Yup as long as Taxpayer Monies aint wasted on this stuff , Its privately set and privately maintained
I could not care one way or the other on who puts what where .
Kinda Like i am wit the Gheys,:D

Right. I mean if you are going to allow one private enterprise you should allow em all, and then so long as the taxpayers arent paying for its maintenance and upkeep.

I just think it'd be a lot easier to allow none than to allow em all.

[Collier11]

IMO this is about the fact that the government shouldnt cater to any religious group. Majority or minority.

Its not offensive. Its religious and has no place on public property.

even if its privately funded?

[JohnnyMack]

I wonder how some of you would do if Obama said he was going to put a Koran on the steps of the capitol?

[My Opinion Matters]

That depends, is it a North or a South Korean? North Koreans are trouble.

[yermom]

you mean the Holy Qua'ran?:D

[BornandBred]

That depends, is it a North or a South Korean? North Koreans are trouble.

Right, but the NK are like 3" shorter on average than the SK due to malnurishment these days. And everyone know, midgets are funny.

So, I'm for a NK on the steps doing something funny. I'm thinking unicycle handing out pamphlets for free a scientology mitochloreon test, or whatever.

[My Opinion Matters]

Right, but the NK are like 3" shorter on average than the SK due to malnurishment these days. And everyone know, midgets are funny.

So, I'm for a NK on the steps doing something funny. I'm thinking unicycle handing out pamphlets for free a scientology mitochloreon test, or whatever.

Korean midget death-match on the steps of the Capitol?

Hell yes.

[Fraggle145]

even if its privately funded?

Especially if its privately funded. Hell catering to privately funded bull**** is half the reason our governments sucks so much right now.

[BornandBred]

Midget Thunderdome!!

[OUMallen]

The government allowing this on the property, in that setting, has a primary effect of advancing a particular religion. Simple as that. Like Fraggle said, it has nothing to do with offensiveness.

Why are hyper-Christians so threatened by such things?

[AggieTool]

Why are hyper-Christians so threatened by such things?

Same reason the Taliban were threatened by statues?:(

[Collier11]

The government allowing this on the property, in that setting, has a primary effect of advancing a particular religion. Simple as that. Like Fraggle said, it has nothing to do with offensiveness.

Why are hyper-Christians so threatened by such things?

why are non-christians threatened by such things, accusing of us from one side of the aisle doenst make an argument.

Like I said before, it being displayed or not is not so much what bothers me

[KC//CRIMSON]

I wonder how some of you would do if Obama said he was going to put a Koran on the steps of the capitol?

Would this Koran be serving Kimchi? If so, I'm so there.

[OUMallen]

why are non-christians threatened by such things, accusing of us from one side of the aisle doenst make an argument.

Like I said before, it being displayed or not is not so much what bothers me

Make an argument?? The argument's been decided! For hundreds of years. But wait, so let me get this straight, you need EXPLAINED to you the fundamental principle that the US government is absolutely restricted from promoting one religion over the other?

Although it doesn't matter in any objective sense- It's not threatening as in "OMG, the gov't is gonna force me to be of the XYZ religion, oh NOES!" It's threatening as in: never ever ever ever ever should our federal government promote or prefer a religion.

You're asking the WRONG question, which shows your fundamentally flawed framing of the issue. It doesn't matter WHY someone who challenges a VIOLATION of the First Amendment does so...it just matters that the individual does. It's not a question of "someone being offended" as much as it is "the government's actions, given this particular fact pattern, have a primary effect of promoting a religious preference."

For purposes of this thread, the other question, however, is relevant: WTF do the hyperChristians care if this monument needs to be moved to private property? It might only need to be moved like 10 feet, seriously, then make it twice as big for all I care. Or better yet, just post the state statutes that reflect the Commandments, and then put in prose for the Commandments that don't have a direct analog (e.g.- coveting), DON'T call them the Ten Commandments, and let'er rip. We're a nation of Laws, not religious rules, after all.

[BornandBred]

It might only need to be moved like 10 feet, seriously, then make it twice as big for all I care.

I've been told that size doesn't matter...

[Curly Bill]

I wonder how some of you would do if Obama said he was going to put a Koran on the steps of the capitol?

I'd be less than shocked, put it that way. ;)

[KC//CRIMSON]

I think it has more to do with families removing prayer from the HOME. Your beef shouldn't be with the schools, but the parents and families. They are the ones who should be raising the kids, not the schools.

Hey, someone finally got it right. Congrats!

[BornandBred]

What completely blows my mind about all of this is how this has become a Christian vs. Non-Christian debate. The fact is, our country was founded on the principle of freedom to worship however we damn well please. Part of that is the separation of church and state. IT'S A GOOD THING!! That way, if Obama comes out of the religious closet and says "hey, I AM a muslim (he's not)", he can't make me worship Mohamed. This is an example of keeping the two separate.

[OUMallen]

I've been told that size doesn't matter...

I like my Commandments to be at LEAST bigger than average. :texan:

[OUMallen]

What completely blows my mind about all of this is how this has become a Christian vs. Non-Christian debate. The fact is, our country was founded on the principle of freedom to worship however we damn well please. Part of that is the separation of church and state. IT'S A GOOD THING!! That way, if Obama comes out of the religious closet and says "hey, I AM a muslim (he's not)", he can't make me worship Mohamed. This is an example of keeping the two separate.

This is because the hyperChristians realize they CAN'T win a legal argument on this, so they re-frame the issue as a non-legal one.

[yermom]

Would this Koran be serving Kimchi? If so, I'm so there.

mmm... kimchi

[BornandBred]

This is because the hyperChristians realize they CAN'T win a legal argument on this, so they re-frame the issue as a non-legal one.

While I get your point, I think you're over generalizing using the term "hyperChristians". It's simply a case where someone gets their feelers hurt by people saying bad things about their religion and resist the action, however logical it may be. Using a term like "hyperChristians" tends to inflame the issue.

[OUMallen]

Fair enough. We'll say "First Amendment Haters" from now on... ;)

[Curly Bill]

Can we also begin referring to the Freedom From Religion crowd as well. ;)

[JohnnyMack]

Can we also begin referring to the Freedom From Religion crowd as well. ;)

Those people rock.

[Collier11]

Can we also begin referring to the going to hell crowd as well. ;)

:eek: Whoah there CB ;)

[Fraggle145]

Can we also begin referring to the Freedom From Religion crowd as well. ;)

In. ;)

[Curly Bill]

I don't really have a dog in this fight -- haven't been to church in years, don't plan on going, but the anti-christians, or should we refer to them as the HyperAnti-Christians are just rediculous with their aversion to being exposed to, or to anyone else being exposed to, anything religion related. Heaven help us (no pun intended) that someone might see the Ten Commandments on their way into a public building.

[Collier11]

I don't really have a dog in this fight -- haven't been to church in years, don't plan on going, but the anti-christians, or should we refer to them as the HyperAnti-Christians are just rediculous with their aversion to being exposed to, or to anyone else being exposed to, anything religion related. Heaven help us (no pun intended) that someone might see the Ten Commandments on their way into a public building.

Heaven help us they might read the Ten Commandments and actually think about them...atleast thats basically what the Supreme Court said when getting rid of them

[Curly Bill]

Heaven help us they might read the Ten Commandments and actually think about them...atleast thats basically what the Supreme Court said when getting rid of them

It's no longer about Freedom of Religion, people have taken it to the extreme, and the Court has seemingly agreed, that people also have the right to Freedom from Religion. I guess so their delicate sensibilities won't be offended.

[Collier11]

exactly, its that terriffic super-sensitive, Politically correct country that we have become.

[NYC Poke]

Elaine: David, I'm going to hell. The worst place in the world. With devils and those caves and the ragged clothing. And the heat. My god, the heat! I mean, what do you think about all that?

Puddy: It's gonna be rough.

Elaine: Uh, you should be trying to save me.

Puddy: Don't boss me! This is why you're going to hell!

Elaine: I am not going to hell! And if you think I'm going to hell, you should care that I'm going to hell, even though I am not.

Puddy: You stole my Jesus fish, didn't ya?!

Elaine: Yeah, that's right!

[Collier11]

LOL

[Curly Bill]

Elaine: David, I'm going to hell. The worst place in the world. With devils and those caves and the ragged clothing. And the heat. My god, the heat! I mean, what do you think about all that?

Puddy: It's gonna be rough.

Elaine: Uh, you should be trying to save me.

Puddy: Don't boss me! This is why you're going to hell!

Elaine: I am not going to hell! And if you think I'm going to hell, you should care that I'm going to hell, even though I am not.

Puddy: You stole my Jesus fish, didn't ya?!

Elaine: Yeah, that's right!

You have offended me that you have invoked Seinfeld on a message board. I demand that you remove the offending post posthaste.

[NYC Poke]

You have offended me that you have invoked Seinfeld on a message board. I demand that you remove the offending post posthaste.

Call the ACLU, bucko!

[Curly Bill]

Call the ACLU, bucko!

See you in court counselor! :mad:

[sitzpinkler]

I don't really have a dog in this fight -- haven't been to church in years, don't plan on going, but the anti-christians, or should we refer to them as the HyperAnti-Christians are just rediculous with their aversion to being exposed to, or to anyone else being exposed to, anything religion related. Heaven help us (no pun intended) that someone might see the Ten Commandments on their way into a public building.

This is where you keep confusing the issue. We are not worried about being "exposed" to anything. It's the government promoting a certain religion that we have issues with. I am not anti-any religion, I'm anti-government getting involved in religion.

[My Opinion Matters]

You have offended me that you have invoked Seinfeld on a message board. I demand that you remove the offending post posthaste.

Oh yeah? Well, the jerk store called and they're all outta you!

[Collier11]

This is where you keep confusing the issue. We are not worried about being "exposed" to anything. It's the government promoting a certain religion that we have issues with. I am not anti-any religion, I'm anti-government getting involved in religion.

but most of you are def for Government run everything else :confused:


^^^ over generalization I know :D

[Curly Bill]

This is where you keep confusing the issue. We are not worried about being "exposed" to anything. It's the government promoting a certain religion that we have issues with. I am not anti-any religion, I'm anti-government getting involved in religion.

I'm not confusing anything, you guys don't want to be exposed to anything you don't explicity support -- I get it.

[Curly Bill]

but most of you are def for Government run everything else :confused:


^^^ over generalization I know :D

Oh no, I'm sure they're in favor of the govt. interfering in the economy, the health care system and things like that, just don't put the Ten Commandments were someone might see them. :rolleyes:

[Collier11]

cus it would affect their lives so much worse than those other things right...;)

[sitzpinkler]

I'm not confusing anything, you guys don't want to be exposed to anything you don't explicity support -- I get it.

No, you don't get it. I explained it and you didn't address what I said. I would have a problem with ANY religion's dogma being placed on public property. It has nothing to do with being exposed to anything. It has to do with the government support of a particular relgion. It's just wrong in my eyes.

[sitzpinkler]

but most of you are def for Government run everything else :confused:


^^^ over generalization I know :D

Not me. I've worked for the government. I want them running as little as possible.

[Curly Bill]

No, you don't get it. I explained it and you didn't address what I said. I would have a problem with ANY religion's dogma being placed on public property. It has nothing to do with being exposed to anything. It has to do with the government support of a particular relgion. It's just wrong in my eyes.

Are you in favor of the government involvement in the economy, in the health care system, govt providing welfare and social spending...? Or are you just in favor of government staying out of religion?

In short: If you voted for Obama, you are obviously in favor of a large government role in most every aspect of society, well except for religion right?

...and I ask this because from the way you post I assume you're a Brack supporter.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Oh yeah? Well, the jerk store called and they're all outta you!


http://www.gifbin.com/bin/295sw0sw9895.gif

[sitzpinkler]

Are you in favor of the government involvement in the economy, in the health care system, govt providing welfare and social spending...? Or are you just in favor of government staying out of religion.

In short: If you voted for Obama, you are obviously in favor of a large government role in most every aspect of society, well except for religion right?

see previous post

and no, I didn't vote this time

[Curly Bill]

see previous post

and no, I didn't vote this time

Fair enough...If you truly think govt. should have no role in the economy and things like that, then I'll respect your opinion they should stay out of religion too.

[JohnnyMack]

Are you in favor of the government involvement in the economy, in the health care system, govt providing welfare and social spending...? Or are you just in favor of government staying out of religion?

In short: If you voted for Obama, you are obviously in favor of a large government role in most every aspect of society, well except for religion right?

...and I ask this because from the way you post I assume you're a Brack supporter.

You're smarter than this.

[sitzpinkler]

Basically, I'm ****ed no matter which way I vote. Both parties have a lot of **** I don't like. I lean left on social issues and right on the rest. Somewhat Libertarian but not absolutely. I doubt I'll ever find a candidate that I'll find completely worthy of my vote.

[Curly Bill]

Come on JM, are ya in favor of government involvement in things or not?

[Curly Bill]

Basically, I'm ****ed no matter which way I vote. Both parties have a lot of **** I don't like. I lean left on social issues and right on the rest. Somewhat Libertarian but not absolutely. I doubt I'll ever find a candidate that I'll find completely worthy of my vote.

We're all ****ed no matter which way we vote theses days. :(

[OUMallen]

Are you in favor of the government involvement in the economy, in the health care system, govt providing welfare and social spending...? Or are you just in favor of government staying out of religion?

In short: If you voted for Obama, you are obviously in favor of a large government role in most every aspect of society, well except for religion right?

...and I ask this because from the way you post I assume you're a Brack supporter.

He doesn't have to agree with your opinion on other issues in order for his opinion to be valid (and correct) on the First Amendment issue the thread is about... That makes zero sense.

[Curly Bill]

He doesn't have to agree with your opinion on other issues in order for his opinion to be valid (and correct) on the First Amendment issue the thread is about... That makes zero sense.

I like pointing out the hypocricy of peeps being all indignant about some suppposed govt. support of religion, but they're all for govt. supporting other areas in society. So... it would seem they are less against governments role in matters then they are against religion itself.

[OUMallen]

I like pointing out the hypocricy of peeps being all indignant about some suppposed govt. support of religion, but they're all for govt. supporting other areas in society. So... it would seem they are less against governments role in matters then they are against religion itself.

A person's belief that the gov't should stay hands-off with religion is NOT incompatible with a belief that a gov't should intervene in some social issues, such as providing welfare. That doesn't make someone anti-religion.

[Curly Bill]

A person's belief that the gov't should stay hands-off with religion is NOT incompatible with a belief that a gov't should intervene in some social issues, such as providing welfare. That doesn't make someone anti-religion.

If you say so, but it sounds to me like some people want to have their cake and eat it too.

[OUMallen]

I agree it's not intuitive for someone to think that way, but it's not illogical either... Anyway. :)

[Fraggle145]

I like pointing out the hypocricy of peeps being all indignant about some suppposed govt. support of religion, but they're all for govt. supporting other areas in society. So... it would seem they are less against governments role in matters then they are against religion itself.

I think the two are different. The government should take a role in society (be it large or limited). isnt that what it is created for? to run society?

However, religion does not have to be a part of society. And I dont want anyone's religion acting as my government.

Wasnt freedom of/from religion one of the things our founding fathers were trying to do when they formed this country?

[Curly Bill]

I think the two are different. The government should take a role in society (be it large or limited). isnt that what it is created for? to run society?

However, religion does not have to be a part of society. And I dont want anyone's religion acting as my government.

Wasnt freedom of/from religion one of the things our founding fathers were trying to do when they formed this country?

Does welfare have to be part of society? I would argue that it does not, however govt. involves itself in that.

Either peeps want govt. involvement in matters or they don't. Just be consistent.

[OUMallen]

Does welfare have to be part of society? I would argue that it does not, however govt. involves itself in that.

Either peeps want govt. involvement in matters or they don't. Just be consistent.

Again, I don't think it inconsistent to say:

1. Gov't, leave religion alone. (gov't out)
2. Gov't, please build a highway. (gov't in)

[Curly Bill]

Wasnt freedom of/from religion one of the things our founding fathers were trying to do when they formed this country?

Freedom of religion, yes. The right to worship or not as you please, yes.

Did they intend for peeps to go throughout their day without there being any chance they might see something of a religious nature, say the 10 Commandments outside a public building, I don't think so.

[soonerscuba]

Freedom of religion, yes. The right to worship or not as you please, yes.

Did they intend for peeps to go throughout their day without there being any chance they might see something of a religious nature, say the 10 Commandments outside a public building, I don't think so.Would they have been in favor of the use of public land to promote a section of the Bible? No idea, because I don't intend that I can read the mind of people 200 years ago, but what I do know is that most in favor of this silly token to the useful idiots would completely lose their **** if it was a passage from the Koran.

[Curly Bill]

Would they have been in favor of the use of public land to promote a section of the Bible? No idea, because I don't intend that I can read the mind of people 200 years ago, but what I do know is that most in favor of this silly token to the useful idiots would completely lose their **** if it was a passage from the Koran.

Ah how nice, can't make a post about this without showing your disdain for people who choose to worship. Wow, how big of you. :rolleyes: :O

[jiminy]

I just disagree that a religious artifact represents endorsement of religion. I believe it has been successfully argued that the Ten Commandments has historical significance to a court of law. Besides, we're a sovereign state now and don't have to do what the feds say :P

If a govt building has a Van Gogh in their lobby, does that mean Picasso lovers are disenfranchised? Or are the rights of people who hate art being violated?

[Curly Bill]

Would they have been in favor of the use of public land to promote a section of the Bible? No idea, because I don't intend that I can read the mind of people 200 years ago, but what I do know is that most in favor of this silly token to the useful idiots would completely lose their **** if it was a passage from the Koran.

...and I don't go to church myself, but at least I have the good grace not to offend those that choose to do so.

....and those on the left are supposed to be more sympathetic to others. :rolleyes:

[OUMallen]

Freedom of religion, yes. The right to worship or not as you please, yes.

Did they intend for peeps to go throughout their day without there being any chance they might see something of a religious nature, say the 10 Commandments outside a public building, I don't think so.

They DID intend for the government to never appear to promote any religion.

[Curly Bill]

They DID intend for the government to never appear to promote any religion.

Then why is it on our money? :O

[soonerscuba]

I use the term useful idiot to describe a subset of the evangelical population that pretty much bankrolls the Republican Party without any sort of meaningful return except for silly things like Jesus Day or the 10 Comandments outside a courthouse, despite what they have been promised (I didn't invent the term, BTW). I have zero issue whatsoever with people who choose to worship, and I actually think churches do more good than pretty much any other institution in this country. A particular vocal subset get under my nerves because the government already provides a TON of financial and social freedoms to churches and yet we are lead to believe that the government has a stranglehold on their activities, it's complete ****.

[Fraggle145]

Then why is it on our money? :O

That'll be another fight in the next ten years or so i bet.

Sort of like the inclusion of it in the pledge of allegiance... When was it there first blah blah blah.

[Fraggle145]

Freedom of religion, yes. The right to worship or not as you please, yes.

Did they intend for peeps to go throughout their day without there being any chance they might see something of a religious nature, say the 10 Commandments outside a public building, I don't think so.

I'm just saying why isnt it enough for the people who want it to have it on their private buildings?

[OUMallen]

Then why is it on our money? :O

The word "God"'s appearance on our money hardly is an counterargument.

Nevertheless, give it time before an atheist goes after it. It will be a much tougher argument because just saying "god" doesn't blatantly promote any one religion like the Ten Commandments in Stigler, Oklahoma do...

[Curly Bill]

That'll be another fight in the next ten years or so i bet.

Sort of like the inclusion of it in the pledge of allegiance... When was it there first blah blah blah.

No doubt.

There's a subset opposite of which Scuba spoke, that seemingly can't stand that the word GOD, or some mention of religion might be voiced or seen in public.

In short: there are nutts on both sides.

[Fraggle145]

Would they have been in favor of the use of public land to promote a section of the Bible? No idea, because I don't intend that I can read the mind of people 200 years ago, but what I do know is that most in favor of this silly token to the useful idiots would completely lose their **** if it was a passage from the Koran.

I too wonder why it couldnt be a passage from the "holy qu'ran" why does it have to be the 10 commandments? :pop:

I dont see why that would be any less applicable...

[Curly Bill]

The word "God"'s appearance on our money hardly is an counterargument.

Nevertheless, give it time before an atheist goes after it. It will be a much tougher argument because just saying "god" doesn't blatantly promote any one religion like the Ten Commandments in Stigler, Oklahoma do...

Nope, as the devil's advocate (literally perhaps) I argue that the mere mention of the word God does in fact promote religion, maybe not a particular religion, but religion nonetheless, and I am thus offended. ;)

[Fraggle145]

No doubt.

There's a subset opposite of which Scuba spoke, that seemingly can't stand that the word GOD, or some mention of religion might be voiced or seen in public.

In short: there are nutts on both sides.

I mean there are tons of ways to display it in public from private property... just like a church does. I dont mind someone displaying their beliefs or lack thereof.

I just dont get why it has to be in the courtyard?

[Curly Bill]

I too wonder why it couldnt be a passage from the "holy qu'ran" why does it have to be the 10 commandments? :pop:

I dont see why that would be any less applicable...

Pay tention! We are a nation founded upon Christian principles.





ya dumas. :P

[Curly Bill]

I mean there are tons of ways to display it in public from private property... just like a church does. I dont mind someone displaying their beliefs or lack thereof.

I just dont get why it has to be in the courtyard?

It really doesn't have to be. I just get a kick out of the crowd that raises such a stink over it. :D

[Fraggle145]

It really doesn't have to be. I just get a kick out of the crowd that raises such a stink over it. :D

Heh, I get a kick out of the crowd that raises a stink over it belonging there :D

[Curly Bill]

Heh, I get a kick out of the crowd that raises a stink over it belonging there :D

Which crowd is worse. I personally think the anti's have the squeakiest more annoying voices. :P

[Curly Bill]

Ya know, this has been a good, fairly civil argument. I'm gonna go run now (literally, prolly a coupla miles), no doubt sometime later we'll manage to turn this thread into one of our typical fights to the death. :D

[mdklatt]

I like pointing out the hypocricy of peeps being all indignant about some suppposed govt. support of religion, but they're all for govt. supporting other areas in society.

Can I point out the ****ing stupid of wanting the government to control things that are nobody else's business but to have no say in the things that effect all of us like the economy and health care?

[JLEW1818]

keep govt out of everything but security. (Troops,cops,fireman)

I don't really give a damn that Johnny's dad was a crack head, and now Johnny is a convicted felon and can't do anything with his life..... sorry

[OhU1]

I just dont get why it has to be in the courtyard?

Because without the 10 commandments no one would have thought about passing a statute outlawing murder and robbery. Thus it has primarily legal significance. The religious connotations of the display are strictly a coincidence.

[JLEW1818]

If you don't want to look at it, well don't look at it!!!!

[47straight]

I'll accept that the posting of the 10 commandments is an endorsement of religion when its opponents acknowledge that so is the redistribution of wealth.

[mdklatt]

Because without the 10 commandments no one would have thought about passing a statute outlawing murder and robbery.

Yeah, 'cause those weren't frowned upon at all until Moses came along.

[mdklatt]

keep govt out of everything but security. (Troops,cops,fireman)


You have a pretty limited view of security. Why firemen but not doctors?

[mdklatt]

I'll accept that the posting of the 10 commandments is an endorsement of religion when its opponents acknowledge that so is the redistribution of wealth.

Isn't every economic system a redistribution of wealth? :confused:

[JohnnyMack]

Yeah, 'cause those weren't frowned upon at all until Moses came along.

Why do you hate Zarathustra?

[OklahomaRed]

I say the government needs to hire us all. Firemen, policemen, lawyers, judges, doctors, plummers, mechanics, servicemen, bankers, CPAs, mailmen, cooks, waiters, etc., etc., etc. (Please place ....women everywhere if the shoe fits).

We all should work for the government. If you are not working and drawing welfare, then the government should pay you to do something like fold socks, or stuff envelopes, or maybe something like come around and clean everyone's windows or something. If you are in a wheelchair of something, then the goverment should pay you to call people and pretend you are selling them something so we don't miss the telephone salesmen. :D

Everyone makes the same annual income. Brain surgeons make the same as the trash guys. Just hope they don't forget whose job is whose and the guy that would have grown up to be the brain surgeon doesn't decide he wants to be a trashman, and the guy that would have grown up to be a trashman doesn't decide he wants to be a brain surgeon because everyone is equal under the law and you can do and be anything you want to be. It doesn't matter if you're dumb, or lazy, or that you have one arm and are blind. If you want to be a stinking brain surgeon then the government should make sure you get to do what you want and that you are not treated any more unfairly than anyone else. After all, that's the government's job to make sure we are all equal and everyone is treated the same and no one is left out. :D

No more rich. No more poor. No more discrimination. No more someone else having a nicer care than someone else. Yeh!!

Oh what a wonderful world. I think I'm going to be the governor of California. No, the governor of Hawaii. :D

[mdklatt]

Why do you hate Zarathustra?

I never saw it (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0406375/), but it didn't look like my cup of tea.

[OUMallen]

...

[AlbqSooner]

Since you brought it up, there's a corrollary between Roe vs. Wade and the decline in crime rate starting in the early 90's.

You do understand that Roe vs. Wade was decided long before the early 90's don't you?

[OhU1]

Why not jsut put up placard of the oklahoma statutes?

Because the bible thing they put up gives you all the moral law you need to live by.

[Collier11]

Would they have been in favor of the use of public land to promote a section of the Bible? No idea, because I don't intend that I can read the mind of people 200 years ago, but what I do know is that most in favor of this silly token to the useful idiots would completely lose their **** if it was a passage from the Koran.

The Koran isnt indicative of the beliefs of 70-80% of our country

[olevetonahill]

see previous post

and no, I didn't vote this time
If ya dint Vote ya have no right to complain :rolleyes:

[Curly Bill]

Can I point out the ****ing stupid of wanting the government to control things that are nobody else's business but to have no say in the things that effect all of us like the economy and health care?

Can I point out the ****ing stupid of wanting the government to control anything that matters, since govt. has shown a great ability to screw up most everything that it touches.

Wait, what...you didn't get that memo? :O

[olevetonahill]

They DID intend for the government to never appear to promote any religion.

Fer a new lawyer ya still stupid .
The intent was for the Gov, To NOT establish a Religion:rolleyes:

[My Opinion Matters]

You do understand that Roe vs. Wade was decided long before the early 90's don't you?

Yeah. That's kinda the point.

[olevetonahill]

Can I point out the ****ing stupid of wanting the government to control things that are nobody else's business but to have no say in the things that effect all of us like the economy and health care?

No so STFU :P

[My Opinion Matters]

Also, judging from some of the comments I've received, it's clear more people need to watch Seinfeld.

[olevetonahill]

Theres a Brazillion Laws on the Books of this country .


Tryin to enforce Gods 10 :pop:
go figure

[Sooner98]

I'm no Constitutional lawyer or expert or anything, but as far as I can see, the First Amendment reads like this:

"Congress (the United States Congress) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

This literally says that laws cannot be passed on a national level, by Congress, to establish or promote a national religion. My question is then, exactly when and how did this get expanded to include state and local governments, and to include symbols and displays that may or may not have been authorized by some sort of legislation (for example, a religious display in Haskell County, Oklahoma)? How has the First Amendment of the Constitution been violated, if 1)no laws were passed by the U.S. Congress to establish a religion here, and 2)this was done on a local level, the U.S. Congress not involved whatsoever? Is there something in the First Amendment that I am missing? Are there state laws that prohibit this?

[My Opinion Matters]

Yeah, so...is anyone going to bother to point out that only 3 of the commandments actually translate into literal intepretations of modern law?

[Ike]

You do understand that Roe vs. Wade was decided long before the early 90's don't you?

ummm...the correlation has to do with the fact that the first kids born after RvW were coming into prime crime committing years in the 90s.

This correlation was verified by looking at crime rates over time in places that had explicitly legalized abortion before RvW, and the same pattern was seen, only some years earlier.

For a good read on this, and many other interesting things, Might I suggest the book "Freakonomics"

[olevetonahill]

Yeah, so...is anyone going to bother to point out that only 3 of the commandments actually translate into literal intepretations of modern law?

I wont but the 10 still apply :rolleyes:
tell me which ones ok ?

[olevetonahill]

ummm...the correlation has to do with the fact that the first kids born after RvW were coming into prime crime committing years in the 90s.

This correlation was verified by looking at crime rates over time in places that had explicitly legalized abortion before RvW, and the same pattern was seen, only some years earlier.

For a good read on this, and many other interesting things, Might I suggest the book "Freakonomics"

Ike I respect ya ,But are ya agreeing that Killin 15 Million babies helped cut the Crime rate by 2%:confused:
thats ****ed up thinkin :pop:

[My Opinion Matters]

I wont but the 10 still apply :rolleyes:
tell me which ones ok ?

Considering 7 of the 10 deal with such pressing contemporary legal issues such as "keep holy the Sabbath" and "honor no other God before me" I'll leave it to you to distinguish which 3 are actually relevant in law codification.

[My Opinion Matters]

Ike I respect ya ,But are ya agreeing that Killin 15 Million babies helped cut the Crime rate by 2%:confused:
thats ****ed up thinkin :pop:

It's not a matter of the ends justifying the means, it's just a statistical connection.

[Ike]

Ike I respect ya ,But are ya agreeing that Killin 15 Million babies helped cut the Crime rate by 2%:confused:
thats ****ed up thinkin :pop:

On the fact of the matter, yes, I do agree, because this single thing (RvW) contributed more to lowering the crime rate than all other policies put in place combined. Thats just a (verifiable) fact.

I made no judgement in my post that it was the right thing to do, or the right way to go about lowering the crime rates in the 90s (when everyone was predicting that crime rates would soar thru the roof). Thats really an excersise left to the reader. But the facts seem to support the conclusion that in general, pregnancies that are likely to be aborted, if carried to term, are likely to produce kids that eventually go on to a life of crime. I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but that statistically, the probability is much higher that a kid will turn to a life of crime if the pregnancy is so unwanted that the mother will go through with an abortion if one is available.

Thats just what the facts seem to say.

[olevetonahill]

It's not a matter of the ends justifying the means, it's just a statistical connection.

So ya finally proving yer points with Statistics ?
makes sense to Me
Kill 15 million Innocent Kids to cut the crime rate :rolleyes:

[My Opinion Matters]

So ya finally proving yer points with Statistics ?
makes sense to Me
Kill 15 million Innocent Kids to cut the crime rate :rolleyes:

And you accuse me of twisting words?

[olevetonahill]

On the fact of the matter, yes, I do agree, because this single thing (RvW) contributed more to lowering the crime rate than all other policies put in place combined. Thats just a (verifiable) fact.

I made no judgement in my post that it was the right thing to do, or the right way to go about lowering the crime rates in the 90s (when everyone was predicting that crime rates would soar thru the roof). Thats really an excersise left to the reader. But the facts seem to support the conclusion that in general, pregnancies that are likely to be aborted, if carried to term, are likely to produce kids that eventually go on to a life of crime. I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but that statistically, the probability is much higher that a kid will turn to a life of crime if the pregnancy is so unwanted that the mother will go through with an abortion if one is available.

Thats just what the facts seem to say.

Ya a Lot Smarter person than me . Theres no debate there :O

So if we extrapolate this out .
Wouldn't what ya sayin be an endorsement ,
Of Forced Sterilization ?:confused:

[olevetonahill]

And you accuse me of twisting words?

Oh ya caught that HUH ?
Works Both ways :P :D

[Ike]

Ya a Lot Smarter person than me . Theres no debate there :O

So if we extrapolate this out .
Wouldn't what ya sayin be an endorsement ,
Of Forced Sterilization ?:confused:

No. Some could use it as a justification, but IMO, it's a weak justification. The ends don't always justify the means.

[My Opinion Matters]

Ya a Lot Smarter person than me . Theres no debate there :O

So if we extrapolate this out .
Wouldn't what ya sayin be an endorsement ,
Of Forced Sterilization ?:confused:

Vet, you're missing the point...its not an endorsement or an admonishment of abortion. It's an unavoidable mathematical conclusion that if potential criminals were never born they can't commit crimes.

[Collier11]

and if you stop posting we dont have to read yer bullsh*t ;)

[Ike]

Ya a Lot Smarter person than me . Theres no debate there :O

So if we extrapolate this out .
Wouldn't what ya sayin be an endorsement ,
Of Forced Sterilization ?:confused:

In fact, you can take that the other way too. Billary was once fond of saying that she would like to see abortions being "safe, legal, and rare". If we were to achieve that kind of utopian harmony in society, the effect (lower crime rate) would probably be achieved with far far fewer abortions ever happening.



It's a nice vision to think of....don't know how in the hell you ever get there.

[Ike]

Vet, you're missing the point...its not an endorsement or an admonishment of abortion. It's an unavoidable mathematical conclusion that if potential criminals were never born they can't commit crimes.

And I just had a "Back to the Future" moment right there...

[Collier11]

nothing to do with abortion is nice...I get yer point but just sayin

[AggieTool]

Okay I'm back...

Whad I miss?

:D

[Collier11]

youre an aggie tool....youre caught up ;)

[Collier11]

I would like to point out that we are almost to 10 pages talking about some serious and sensitive issues and we have kept it civil...im proud of you guys. Lets keep in enjoyin it before some idjit comes and messes it up ;)

[olevetonahill]

Vet, you're missing the point...its not an endorsement or an admonishment of abortion. It's an unavoidable mathematical conclusion that if potential criminals were never born they can't commit crimes.

Then I aint missed shat ?

Sterilize the stupid . the Incompetent , The inept .
and wipe out Crime
simple .:rolleyes:

[olevetonahill]

No. Some could use it as a justification, but IMO, it's a weak justification. The ends don't always justify the means.

Statistics be statistics :D

[Collier11]

too bad we cant have us Christians to help determine who needs to be sterilized ;)

[Curly Bill]

Then I aint missed shat ?

Sterilize the stupid . the Incompetent , The inept .
and wipe out Crime
simple .:rolleyes:

Sweet, when do we start? :D

[KC//CRIMSON]

too bad we cant have us Christians to help determine who needs to be sterilized ;)


Thank God.

[Curly Bill]

Thank God.

I see what ya did there. ;)

[olevetonahill]

And I just had a "Back to the Future" moment right there...

With MOM im thinkin more "Animal Farm ":eek:

[olevetonahill]

I would like to point out that we are almost to 10 pages talking about some serious and sensitive issues and we have kept it civil...im proud of you guys. Lets keep in enjoyin it before some idjit comes and messes it up ;)

**** off dip ****

[Collier11]

Thank God.

Clever ;)

[olevetonahill]

too bad we cant have us Christians to help determine who needs to be sterilized ;)

I aint arguing Christian or Non believers ,

But I want in on the Nut cuttin :D

[olevetonahill]

Thank God.

Holy , Holy , Holy. :D :pop:

[olevetonahill]

Ok , back to the OP.
The 10 commandments, are not a Gov. established religion per se .

I dont give a **** if some one wants to place the Holy Satan
on property if They Pay for it and Maintain it .
:P :P :P :P

[sitzpinkler]

If ya dint Vote ya have no right to complain :rolleyes:

Apparently I'm a ****ing loser because I didn't vote. :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure you're just kidding, but I hate this argument. If you absolutely do not like anybody running, who do you vote for? Lesser of two evils? That's bull**** and a waste of my time. I would not have been happy EITHER WAY. So, what do I do? Flip a coin and vote for the hell of it? **** that. Ultimately, I'm less complicit than anybody else. ;)

[olevetonahill]

Apparently I'm a ****ing loser because I didn't vote. :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure you're just kidding, but I hate this argument. If you absolutely do not like anybody running, who do you vote for? Lesser of two evils? That's bull**** and a waste of my time. I would not have been happy EITHER WAY. So, what do I do? Flip a coin and vote for the hell of it? **** that. Ultimately, I'm less complicit than anybody else. ;)

Kinda makes sense
But NOT :rolleyes:

[sitzpinkler]

Kinda makes sense
But NOT :rolleyes:

How does it not? If your choices are sh** and sh** and you have the option of walking the **** away, how is walking away not the logical choice?

[Collier11]

its just like all those celebs, they bitched and moaned about Bush this and Bush that, but how many of those stupid idiots actually voted?

Not lumping you in with them, just sayin

[sitzpinkler]

Ok , back to the OP.
The 10 commandments, are not a Gov. established religion per se .

I dont give a **** if some one wants to place the Holy Satan
on property if They Pay for it and Maintain it .
:P :P :P :P

haha, your clique has the same initials as the sheephumpers website and chant :P

[Collier11]

OP is original poster smart one ;)

[sitzpinkler]

its just like all those celebs, they bitched and moaned about Bush this and Bush that, but how many of those stupid idiots actually voted?

Not lumping you in with them, just sayin

If you just don't have a candidate you support, I don't see how not voting is a bad thing. If the person who did win ****s things up, I don't see how you don't have a right to complain.

Let's say I don't vote but some jackass wins the election. Am I seriously not supposed to get pissed if the dude starts ****ing up the country I served for? BS.

Again, who should I vote for if I don't like any of them? I really don't know how to put it more simply than that. :)

[olevetonahill]

How does it not? If your choices are sh** and sh** and you have the option of walking the **** away, how is walking away not the logical choice?

You win :rolleyes:

[Collier11]

write in Bob Stoops

[sitzpinkler]

OP is original poster smart one ;)

yeah, I knew that, :O

[Curly Bill]

I'm all for peeps without a strong opinion not voting. Truthfully, I'm in favor of literacy tests and the like, to make sure that those that do vote actually have enough of a clue to do so.

[sitzpinkler]

You win :rolleyes:

Well, since you seem to have all the answers, tell me, who should I vote for if I don't like a single candidate on the ballot? Seriously, do you have anything to add or are you just going to keep rolling eyes at me?

It always made me laugh when I would be talking to some people at the bar or work about the election and I would state my desire not to vote. I would always say "if I do vote, I'm voting for (insert the opposite of their favorite candidate)", just because I knew what the reaction would be, and without fail, it was always "Oh, God, please don't vote!"

[Collier11]

I'm all for peeps without a strong opinion not voting. Truthfully, I'm in favor of literacy tests and the like, to make sure that those that do vote actually have enough of a clue to do so.

Way to go CB, earlier you were offending the non-believers and now you have offended the old azzes in Florida and beyond

[Curly Bill]

Way to go CB, earlier you were offending the non-believers and now you have offended the old azzes in Florida and beyond

I'm an equal opportunity offender. :D

Seriously though, if ya don't know what/who you're voting for, or surely if ya don't even know how to vote stay the fark home!

[Collier11]

we could bring in all the old azzes, 16 yr olds, asians and women on cell phones, and everyone else who cant drive ;)

[olevetonahill]

How does it not? If your choices are sh** and sh** and you have the option of walking the **** away, how is walking away not the logical choice?

So then ya aint ever Voted ?:pop:

[Collier11]

^^^That was a joke, dont go gettin all offended peeps

[Collier11]

dangit vet, you got in my way, my post about driving was a joke, not vets post ;)

[Crucifax Autumn]

I have a compromise for everyone.

1) Hang the dogma and beliefs of EVERY religion in EVERY public building.

2) Start taxing them all so that neither gigantic profiterring organizations or silly people with tax shelters in strip malls with 3 followers get ANY breaks. If they wish to avoid taxes then make them document enough legitimate writeoffs to actual charity causes to counter their tax burden.

This would actually be great since we wouldn't be seeing any more "Leroy Levay's Church of the Benevolent Tuna" weaseling out of both paying taxe and helping their fellow man. Make 'em choose one and make 'em do it fully.

[sitzpinkler]

I'm an equal opportunity offender. :D

Seriously though, if ya don't know what/who you're voting for, or surely if ya don't even know how to vote stay the fark home!

Sometimes knowing a lot about the candidates can be a deterrent.

[olevetonahill]

Well, since you seem to have all the answers, tell me, who should I vote for if I don't like a single candidate on the ballot? Seriously, do you have anything to add or are you just going to keep rolling eyes at me?

It always made me laugh when I would be talking to some people at the bar or work about the election and I would state my desire not to vote. I would always say "if I do vote, I'm voting for (insert the opposite of their favorite candidate)", just because I knew what the reaction would be, and without fail, it was always "Oh, God, please don't vote!"

Then They won .:rolleyes:

[Curly Bill]

Sometimes knowing a lot about the candidates can be a deterrent.

If you mean a deterrent to voting I agree. Last election being a case in point, neither candidate was truthfully worth a spit.

[sitzpinkler]

Then They won .:rolleyes:

yeah, totally :rolleyes:

[olevetonahill]

Sometimes knowing a lot about the candidates can be a deterrent.

You study the candidates
then vote "Do No Harm "
shat aint hard :pop:

[Collier11]

Had Mccain chosen a viable VP candidate he would have had a good chance and I think would have done a good job, Obama may still but it isnt looking good. See how easy it is to bring a whole new demographic into this discussion ;)

[tommieharris91]

I'm all for peeps without a strong opinion not voting. Truthfully, I'm in favor of literacy tests and the like, to make sure that those that do vote actually have enough of a clue to do so.

I was one of those people that didn't have a strong opinion and still voted.

I just left the president's spot on my ballot blank.

[olevetonahill]

I was one of those people that didn't have a strong opinion and still voted.

I just left the president's spot on my ballot blank.

Hell I voted
when it came to Prez I wrote in my cats Name :P

[Curly Bill]

Hell I voted
when it came to Prez I wrote in my cats Name :P

Does your cat understand you don't get out of debt by spending even more money? If so, I'd say you did the right thing. ;)

[olevetonahill]

Does your cat understand you don't get out of debt by spending even more money? If so, I'd say you did the right thing. ;)

Black Cat dont give a shat . as long as she gets FREE food :D

[Ike]

Black Cat dont give a shat . as long as she gets FREE food :D

:texan: Free loadin socialist hippie cat!

[olevetonahill]

:texan: Free loadin socialist hippie cat!

Shes a Bitch LOL

[Fraggle145]

Then I aint missed shat ?

Sterilize the stupid . the Incompetent , The inept .
and wipe out Crime
simple .:rolleyes:

the reason this wouldnt work is that there are too many of them.

This is also a fact statistically. There are too many genes that cause some sort of defect, stupidity etc... the effort to control every one of them would have to include everyone that was a carrier for the genes recessively. this doesnt even cover combined traits, crossed inheritance, linked traits etc...

This is due to our really large population size full of stupid people provide us with a source of hybrid vigor and mutations ;) If we were to cut out that much of our genepool we may not be able to combat whatever next disease comes along.

Much of our selection is on technology now anyway and being able to use technology. You dont have it you die. look at africa. We no longer kill diseases genetically (for the most part) we kill them with medicine and technology.

Hence, why eugenics wouldnt work. But man it sure could be fun! :D :pop: ;)

[yermom]

that and the world needs ditch diggers

[SanJoaquinSooner]

the compromise should be to go for just 3 commandments: no killing, stealing, perjury. sandblast the other seven - they don't belong. if I want to covet brad pitts wife, I should be free to do so and if the oklahoma cultural conservatives don't like it, then....




















http://belilmadia.canalblog.com/tomb_raider___angelina_jolie_middle_finger_.jpg

[Ike]

the compromise should be to go for just 3 commandments: no killing, stealing, perjury. sandblast the other seven - they don't belong. if I want to covet brad pitts wife, I should be free to do so and if the oklahoma cultural conservatives don't like it, then....



Why 3? George Carlin has already done the work for you of reducing the 10 commandments down to 2.



Thou shalt always be honest and faithful, especially to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

[JLEW1818]

the compromise should be to go for just 3 commandments: no killing, stealing, perjury. sandblast the other seven - they don't belong. if I want to covet brad pitts wife, I should be free to do so and if the oklahoma cultural conservatives don't like it, then....





















http://belilmadia.canalblog.com/tomb_raider___angelina_jolie_middle_finger_.jpg



I'd let her sit on my face

[Curly Bill]

I think that violates at least one of the commandments.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Why 3? George Carlin has already done the work for you of reducing the 10 commandments down to 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful, especially to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

gotta hand it to george 'moses' carlin. he was a genius.

[Fraggle145]

Which crowd is worse. I personally think the anti's have the squeakiest more annoying voices. :P

Oh and I meant to say that side may be squeaky, but there arent as many of them so the other side is a lot louder and more belligerent. :D

[Curly Bill]

Oh and I meant to say that side may be squeaky, but there arent as many of them so the other side is a lot louder and more belligerent. :D

The peeps on both the far wings of the religion argument are pretty nutso.

[olevetonahill]

the reason this wouldnt work is that there are too many of them.

This is also a fact statistically. There are too many genes that cause some sort of defect, stupidity etc... the effort to control every one of them would have to include everyone that was a carrier for the genes recessively. this doesnt even cover combined traits, crossed inheritance, linked traits etc...

This is due to our really large population size full of stupid people provide us with a source of hybrid vigor and mutations ;) If we were to cut out that much of our genepool we may not be able to combat whatever next disease comes along.

Much of our selection is on technology now anyway and being able to use technology. You dont have it you die. look at africa. We no longer kill diseases genetically (for the most part) we kill them with medicine and technology.

Hence, why eugenics wouldnt work. But man it sure could be fun! :D :pop: ;)

Now ya going and gettin all technical and shat :rolleyes:

[Crucifax Autumn]

The peeps on both the far wings of the religion argument are pretty nutso.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!

As much as the athiests and heathens like me, but more crazy, hate to admit it, they're just as devout as Falwell and the like...

Extremism and dogmatic stupidity on both extremes...or all 5000 if you wanna count all the religions and wannabes out there should be smacked down like the whorish bitches they really are.

[Fraggle145]

The peeps on both the far wings of the religion argument are pretty nutso.

I totally agree. I used to be one of em. I still can be, but I try to stay calm about it these days. **** just ain't worth it.

[Fraggle145]

Now ya going and gettin all technical and shat :rolleyes:

I was just trying to help :O

Short version there are too many stupid people, we'd have to get rid of smart people also to get rid of all the stupid, we might need the stupid people eventually.

[OU_Sooners75]

Yes,

Because an invisible sky god and fear of damnation is what kept those kids in line.:D

You do know that correlation is not the same thing as "causation" don't you?

How about these...

- Removing the ability for teachers and schools to adequately discipline or remove unruly students.

- Limiting parent's ability to discipline their own children.

- Failing to hold parents accountable for their children's actions.

- Promoting abstinence (like the invisible guy told us to) instead of common sense birth control in schools.

Now we have unwed mothers ill equipped to raise children properly.

But if praying to deities makes kids behave better, I'm all for it.:D


It is called a set of morals.

Yes, the religious folk around (I aint got nothing against them) think it came from a burnin bush atop a mountain that made Moses age like 40 years...

but the fact is, it is about having morals in your life. And it is a good set of morals.

It is was set on a plaque, like Dean stated, it would not be looke upon as religous...but as good sound advice!

[OU_Sooners75]

Also,

Why is it some many people think teh 10 Commandments are Christian values and rules to live by only?

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all mention their sets of values and rules to live by.

Now, the Jews and Christians have the 10 Commandments in their bibles.
Where the Muslims do not have the 10 Commandments in the Quran. However, the Quarn does have this:


Verses of the Exodus Ch. 20
Parallel Verses of the Quran

3: “Do not worship any other gods besides me.”
“And your Lord has ordained that you should not worship anyone except Him” ( 17:23 )

4-6: “Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must not bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate Me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey their commands even for a thousand generations.”
“And shun unclean idols” ( 22:30 )

“When Abraham said, O my Lord,… and save me and my offspring from worshipping idols” ( 14:35 )

“When Abraham said to his father… do you adopt idols as your things of worship? I see you and your tribe in open error” (6:74)

“When (Abraham said to his father and tribe,”What are these images that you sit around? They said, “we found our ancestors worshipping them. (Abraham) said, “Verily, you and your ancestors were in open error” ( 21:52 -54)

7: Do not misuse the name of your LORD the God. The LORD will not let you go unpunished if you misuse His name.
“And do not make Allah a target for your oaths for doing good or avoiding evil or reconciling people (2:224)

8-11: “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work. But the seventh day is the day of rest, dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then He rested on the seventh day. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.
And We said to them, “Do not violate Sabbath, and We took from them a solemn Covenant” (4:154)

“He created the heavens and the Earth in six days, and then He settled down on the Throne to administer matters”. (10:3)

“Everyday He is busy in a new way” (55:29)

“Neither drowsiness nor sleep overcomes Him…He is not fatigued by taking care of both (Heavens and Earth)”. (2:255)

12: “Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the LORD your God will give you.
“And your Lord ordains that you do not worship anyone but only Him, and do good to your parents. If they reach old age before your eyes, any one of them or both, then do not say a word of criticism to them and do not scold them, rather speak kindly to them. And lean your wing of humility towards them and pray, ”O Lord, have mercy on them as they had brought me up since my childhood” ( 17:23 -24)

13: “Do not murder.
“And do not kill anybody that Allah has prohibited except when you have a right to kill” (6:151)

14: Do not commit adultery.
“And do not even go near adultery. It is open vice and bad way” ( 17:32 )

15: Do not steal.
“As to the thief (man or woman) let their hands be cut off, a retaliation for what they did, a punishment from Allah. ( 5:38 )

16:” Do not testify falsely against your neighbor.
“And They (Servants of God) do not testify falsely.” (25:72)

17: “Do not covet your neighbor’s house. Do not covet your neighbor’s wife. Male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else your neighbor owns.”
“And do not covet what Allah has favored some of you over others.( 4:32 )

“And do not stretch your eyes towards what We have provided some of them.” (15:88)

Quran claims to attest the Holy Books (Torah and the Gospels) revealed before it. But it also says that it oversees them. This means that Quran points out the alterations made by vested interests in the Holy Words. The comparison between Biblical verses and Quranic verses has been made clear above. The contrast on some points needs to be made clear.

(a) A jealous God: Bible says of God that He cannot tolerate sharing of our affection with others gods. Quran also says something similar,” Allah will not forgive (your) assigning Partners with Him, and may forgive lesser sins to whom He wishes” ( 4:48 ) “Verily, Polytheism is a great injustice” (31:13)

(b) Punishing children for sins of parents. Bible says God will punish children for the sins of parents to the 3rd and 4th generations, but will shower His love on the obedient for thousand generations. Quran says, “No one does any deed but its burden is on him/her alone. No one will bear the burden of another”(6:161) According to Quran accountability for sins is personal and does not extend to children. However, it says, “He who brings one good deed will be awarded ten times, but he who brings one Evil deed will be awarded only for that (single) and they will not be done injustice” (6:160). This is out of His Mercy.

(c) Sabbath: Bible orders Jews to hold Sabbath as a holiday (no work) just as God rested on the 7th day after creating the Universe for six days. Quran has a different view. Jews were ordered to observe certain restrictions on fishing on Sabbath day (as a test). But they violated God’s order, so were punished by God.

Quran says, “He made the night for rest and the day for earning livelihood” (78:11). There is no concept of a ‘holy-day’ without work in Islam. Even on its sacred days (Fridays) Quran orders us to hasten for prayers but to disperse in the land for seeking livelihood after prayers are over. (62:9-10)

(d) God needs no rest: Bible says God rested on the 7th day after creating universe. Quran says: Allah is never fatigued by administrating matters of the Universe. He needs no sleep (or rest). Busy always.

(e) Murder: Killing any one without right is prohibited both in Bible and Quran. Quran goes further, “We ordained for Children on Israel that He who kills one person (but for retaliation or terrorism in the land)) is like killing a whole mankind. ( 5:32 )

(f) Adultery: Bible prohibits only the act of adultery. Quran prohibits even its preliminaries, i.e. any acts exiting lustful feelings. This is because once hormones are excited it is difficult to keep them under control. So why not nip the evil in the bud!

(g) Stealing: Quran prescribes a rather harsh punishment for thieves (male or female). This has been criticized by Western critics as ‘barbarous’ punishment. But Quran does not care for criticism. It has public safety in view. Once a thief has his/her hands cut off it will be a most effective deterrent for others.

(h) False evidence: Quran orders Muslims not to hide evidence, but to testify truth even if it goes against self or parents or relatives (4:135). Moreover, Quran extends this order for all Believers and does not restrict it to neighbors only (as in Bible).

(i) Coveting: Bible limits coveting to neighbor’s property only. Quran goes further and extends the prohibition to all society.

source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061109062732AAn44v6

[OU_Sooners75]

To continue, all religous sects have rules to live by that are meant to be basic morals....

From Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddist, Hindu, etc...

I think the problem of this country is, there are so much of a minority that are atheist that they shun all things religion.

That said, why should a small group of people, that live in this country freely, get all bent out of shape and offended by morals that they themselves try to live by and that were instilled into them growing up?

I think it is time for the American public to shout out and say enough is enough.

I may not be a big follower of a religion right now in life. However...lets look at this way...

1. Do not screw a married person.
2. Do not kill someone.
3. Do not be a fing thief.
4. Love and cherish your parents.
5. Stop working for at least one freaking day/week and enjoy life, and relax.
6. If you are married, dont go cheatin on your partner.
7. If you borrow something from a friend, family member, or neighbor return it.
8. Do not be another David Koresh, in thinking you are some type of god. It only makes you look like a loon.
9. If you are not religious, then why curse a god that you do not believe in? If you are religious...dont take god's name in vane.

What is so freaking difficult to understand that the laws of Moses are not necessarily for the religious, but for all man kind? If you are not religous, there may not be 10, but there are 9 examples I was happy to give that are in the 10 commandments!

[AggieTool]

To continue, all religous sects have rules to live by that are meant to be basic morals....

From Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddist, Hindu, etc...

I think the problem of this country is, there are so much of a minority that are atheist that they shun all things religion.

That said, why should a small group of people, that live in this country freely, get all bent out of shape and offended by morals that they themselves try to live by and that were instilled into them growing up?

I think it is time for the American public to shout out and say enough is enough.

I may not be a big follower of a religion right now in life. However...lets look at this way...

1. Do not screw a married person.
2. Do not kill someone.
3. Do not be a fing thief.
4. Love and cherish your parents.
5. Stop working for at least one freaking day/week and enjoy life, and relax.
6. If you are married, dont go cheatin on your partner.
7. If you borrow something from a friend, family member, or neighbor return it.
8. Do not be another David Koresh, in thinking you are some type of god. It only makes you look like a loon.
9. If you are not religious, then why curse a god that you do not believe in? If you are religious...dont take god's name in vane.

What is so freaking difficult to understand that the laws of Moses are not necessarily for the religious, but for all man kind? If you are not religous, there may not be 10, but there are 9 examples I was happy to give that are in the 10 commandments!

Maybe the issue for non-religious types is that the very folks trying to cram this stuff down everyone's throat are the biggest violators of the very same commandments or "morals" you speak of.

I do agree the ten commandments are for the most part common sense behavior for any society to function.

But while the sheeple pour into the mega-churches (making people rich), there's yet another example of some sort of christian not acting very "christian" on the news.

[Lott's Bandana]

If you mean a deterrent to voting I agree. Last election being a case in point, neither candidate was truthfully worth a spit.


I did not vote in November.
I figure I get two votes in 2012.


"...if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." - Neil Peart Rush

[Veritas]

Reading this thread was like being bukaked with stupid.

[Collier11]

^^^ That is funny

[OU_Sooners75]

Maybe the issue for non-religious types is that the very folks trying to cram this stuff down everyone's throat are the biggest violators of the very same commandments or "morals" you speak of.

I do agree the ten commandments are for the most part common sense behavior for any society to function.

But while the sheeple pour into the mega-churches (making people rich), there's yet another example of some sort of christian not acting very "christian" on the news.


On this issue, I see one side pushing an agenda....and it is not from the religion side of things.

This did not come about because Muslims, Hindus, Jews, got offended. This came about because the atheist agenda, in small town oklahoma got offended by morals being posted in a courthouse.

If he/she that started this mess got easily offended, they should turn their head when walking by.

Better, yet...they should move to california and have fun there.

Like I said, I am not a very religious person...but the shame of this entire matter is not religion, it is those that are too caught up in their own propaganda to see the truth...and that is WHO REALLY GIVES A DAMN if 10 moral beliefs are hung up on a damn wall in a courtroom?

[JohnnyMack]

Reading this thread was like being bukaked with stupid.

You misspelled that.

[JohnnyMack]

On this issue, I see one side pushing an agenda....and it is not from the religion side of things.

This did not come about because Muslims, Hindus, Jews, got offended. This came about because the atheist agenda, in small town oklahoma got offended by morals being posted in a courthouse.

If he/she that started this mess got easily offended, they should turn their head when walking by.

Better, yet...they should move to california and have fun there.

Like I said, I am not a very religious person...but the shame of this entire matter is not religion, it is those that are too caught up in their own propaganda to see the truth...and that is WHO REALLY GIVES A DAMN if 10 moral beliefs are hung up on a damn wall in a courtroom?

If that's really how you feel I suppose you wouldn't take umbrage with the placement of a statute of Buddha on the courthouse lawn?

[Collier11]

For the 2nd time, Buddha doesnt represent 70-80% of this countries beliefs

[JohnnyMack]

For the 2nd time, Buddha doesnt represent 70-80% of this countries beliefs

Might don't make right.