George Tiller murdered

[GottaHavePride]

http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/833730.html


Not only was he shot and killed, they shot him as he was going to church.

I find the term "pro life" ironic when something like this happens.

[XingTheRubicon]

...aborted in the 271st trimester.

[JohnnyMack]

I can't wait for the day when humans wake up and leave their religion and all the intolerant baggage that weighs them down.

[MR2-Sooner86]

*pulls up a chair waiting for this thread to explode into an abortion debate*

:pop:

[badger]

I will anticipate more of these types of aggressive acts happening when more and more people have economic hardships in their lives. If you have nothing to lose, what's holding you back?

[Lott's Bandana]

I can't wait for the day when humans wake up and leave their religion and all the intolerant baggage that weighs them down.


Adolf, Josef and Mao heartily agree.



Truth:

The people at one fringe say, "Yes!".
The people at the other fringe say, "See?!".


Everyone else just sighs and shakes their head in dismay.

<shaking head>

[GottaHavePride]

Regardless of whether or not you agree with what he does, that doesn't justify shooting him dead as he's going to church, in front of a church full of people. I'm sure all those parents really wanted their children to see someone get shot this morning.

Hell, this makes the second time the guy has been shot, and that's not counting the times they bombed his office.

[royalfan5]

I wonder if they catch the shooter if my friend that is a public defender down there will draw the case. Knowing his luck, he would.

[soonerhubs]

Regardless of whether or not you agree with what he does, that doesn't justify shooting him dead as he's going to church, in front of a church full of people. I'm sure all those parents really wanted their children to see someone get shot this morning.

Hell, this makes the second time the guy has been shot, and that's not counting the times they bombed his office.

I couldn't agree more.

[JohnnyMack]

Adolf, Josef and Mao heartily agree.



Truth:

The people at one fringe say, "Yes!".
The people at the other fringe say, "See?!".


Everyone else just sighs and shakes their head in dismay.

<shaking head>

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. But thanks.

[AggieTool]

Way to go fundamentalist evangelical Christians!:mad:

The American Taliban is alive and well.:mad:

I'm sure your invisible sky god is happy.:mad:

[Lott's Bandana]

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. But thanks.


Well then...

my bad.

YW.

[Okla-homey]

Regardless of whether or not you agree with what he does, that doesn't justify shooting him dead as he's going to church, in front of a church full of people. I'm sure all those parents really wanted their children to see someone get shot this morning.

Hell, this makes the second time the guy has been shot, and that's not counting the times they bombed his office.

While agree, it sounds like murder, and the suspect captured shortly thereafter will probably be convicted, and it seems inconsistent to be "pro-life" and also a murderer, remember one thing.

And before I go on, please know that I don't endorse this sort of thing. To be clear, DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE EXCEPT IN SELF-DEFENSE!

Now, all that said, it is entirely possible, and very likely, the shooter felt that by killing Dr. Tiller, he was prospectively saving countless innocent unborn babies. I lived up in Wichita during the "Summer of Mercy" (1990?) when thousands came to town from around the country to (mostly) peacefully protest.

They targeted Tiller especially because it was believed that he conducted late-term abortions which are particularly onerous to folks folks who oppose abortion rights. Even many folks who are okay with first tri-mester abortions, get squeamish at the notion of aborting a fetus/baby older than 24 gestational weeks.

In that sense, there is a thread of commonality between folks who would kill an abortionist and extremist abolitionists like John Brown who felt it was okay to kill slave-owners...many of whom were living in Kansas when he killed them. To this very day, John Brown is revered and venerated by a lot of folks in this country.

Maybe its something in the water up there that brings that extremism out in folks. ;)

And one more thing, while most pro-life folks are also people of faith, I beleive it is entirely possible to oppose abortion based completely on moral/ethical grounds without bringing religion into it.

[AggieTool]

While agree, it sounds like murder, and the suspect captured shortly thereafter will probably be convicted, and it seems inconsistent to be "pro-life" and also a murderer, remember one thing.

And before I go on, please know that I don't endorse this sort of thing. To be clear, DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE EXCEPT IN SELF-DEFENSE!

Now, all that said, it is entirely possible, and very likely, the shooter felt that by killing Dr. Tiller, he was prospectively saving countless innocent unborn babies. I lived up in Wichita during the "Summer of Mercy" (1990?) when thousands came to town from around the country to (mostly) peacefully protest.

They targeted Tiller especially because it was believed that he conducted late-term abortions which are particularly onerous to folks folks who oppose abortion rights. Even many folks who are okay with first tri-mester abortions, get squeamish at the notion of aborting a fetus/baby older than 24 gestational weeks.

In that sense, there is a thread of commonality between folks who would kill an abortionist and extremist abolitionists like John Brown who felt it was okay to kill slave-owners...many of whom were living in Kansas when he killed them. To this very day, John Brown is revered and venerated by a lot of folks in this country.

Maybe its something in the water out there that brings that extremism out in folks. ;)

Using that logic, it could be argued that killing unwanted babies might save lives because the little buggers would've grown up to be thug gang-banger murderers.

None the less, it's funny how some are so indignant when murder is committed in the name of religion, unless it's their religion...then it's justified.

[Harry Beanbag]

None the less, it's funny how some are so indignant when murder is committed in the name of religion, unless it's they're religion...then it's justified.


Dude, there is plenty of inconsistency and hyprocrisy to go around on this issue.

[Okla-homey]

Using that logic, it could be argued that killing unwanted babies might save lives because the little buggers would've grown up to be thug gang-banger murderers.

None the less, it's funny how some are so indignant when murder is committed in the name of religion, unless it's they're religion...then it's justified.

like I said, it's easy to pillory religious folks. Especially when something like this happens. But, I still say, irreligious people can and do oppose abortion on moral/ethical grounds. I hear folks all the time assert religious folks do not have a corner on morality.

Our laws, which are not handed down by clergy, state that if you kill a pregnant women, you can be charged with two counts. If you accidently or deliberately injure a pregnant women, and she loses her baby, you can be charged with homicide. OTOH, aborting a fetus under legal conditions is not a crime. Therefore, it seems to me that the critical difference is whether or not the mom wanted the child to decide if it's homicide.

I just find it curious that we don't distinguish crimes against persons on whether or not anyone cherished the victim in any other area of the law. And I know, lots of folks don't consider an unborn child a person. I get it. I for one, think if the fetus is capable of life outside the womb, even with help from neonatologists, that fetus is a person.

[Turd_Ferguson]

like I said, it's easy to pillory religious folks. Especially when something like this happens. But, I still say, irreligious people can and do oppose abortion on moral/ethical grounds. I hear folks all the time assert religious folks do not have a corner on morality.

Our laws, which are not handed down by clergy, state that if you kill a pregnant women, you can be charged with two counts. If you accidently or deliberately injure a pregnant women, and she loses her baby, you can be charged with homicide. OTOH, aborting a fetus under legal conditions is not a crime. Therefore, it seems to me that the critical difference is whether or not the mom wanted the child to decide if it's homicide.

I just find it curious that we don't distinguish crimes against persons on whether or not anyone cherished the victim in any other area of the law. And I know, lots of folks don't consider an unborn child a person. I get it. I for one, think if the fetus is capable of life outside the womb, even with help from neonatologists, that fetus is a person.Great post. I agree 100%, but why would you want to throw this in the face of Jesus haters when they have something they think they can blame on religion:confused:

[GrapevineSooner]

I have many friends and people I know personally as well as through personal networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter.

Many of them are quite religious and feel strongly about their faith.

Everyone of them that I know has condemned this killing of Tiller. As do I.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I don't blame religion, I blame nutjob terrorist freaks bent on revenge disguised as rightousness.

No religion shot anyone, some idiot did.

[LosAngelesSooner]

He was an usher in that church. They shot him while he was ushering in a Christian church on a Sunday.

Oh, and the have the POS who shot him in custody.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Great post. I agree 100%, but why would you want to throw this in the face of Jesus haters when they have something they think they can blame on religion:confused:There are very, very few "Jesus haters" anywhere in the world.

There are plenty of us who hate those who use "Jesus" and a bastardization of His teachings to sow hate and bigotry and violence and evil throughout the world. Far too many do things like THIS in His name.

[yermom]

like I said, it's easy to pillory religious folks. Especially when something like this happens. But, I still say, irreligious people can and do oppose abortion on moral/ethical grounds. I hear folks all the time assert religious folks do not have a corner on morality.

Our laws, which are not handed down by clergy, state that if you kill a pregnant women, you can be charged with two counts. If you accidently or deliberately injure a pregnant women, and she loses her baby, you can be charged with homicide. OTOH, aborting a fetus under legal conditions is not a crime. Therefore, it seems to me that the critical difference is whether or not the mom wanted the child to decide if it's homicide.

I just find it curious that we don't distinguish crimes against persons on whether or not anyone cherished the victim in any other area of the law. And I know, lots of folks don't consider an unborn child a person. I get it. I for one, think if the fetus is capable of life outside the womb, even with help from neonatologists, that fetus is a person.

mark me down as a non-religious person opposed to abortion

and i'm having a hard time really feeling bad hearing about the shooting of a late term abortionist

[Dio]

Way to go fundamentalist evangelical Christians!:mad:

The American Taliban is alive and well.:mad:

I'm sure your invisible sky god is happy.:mad:

So...prejudice is bad....except for your prejudices. Got it.

[Dio]

There are very, very few "Jesus haters" anywhere in the world.

There are plenty of us who hate those who use "Jesus" and a bastardization of His teachings to sow hate and bigotry and violence and evil throughout the world. Far too many do things like THIS in His name.

What's the ratio of Christians to violent Christians, I wonder?

[Dio]

...and before we go any further, let me go on record saying what happened this morning was horrible and wrong. The end does not justify the means.

[yermom]

define "violent"

how many murders in the US do you think were committed by people who grew up going to church or claim to be Christians by percentage?

[LosAngelesSooner]

What's the ratio of Christians to violent Christians, I wonder?Theft is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Lying is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Jealousy is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.

Way to miss my point entirely.

[Dio]

define "violent"

how many murders in the US do you think were committed by people who grew up going to church or claim to be Christians by percentage?

If they grew up going to church, but chose to stop going as an adult, that doesn't count. If they claim to be Christians it would.

And by violent, let's say blew somebody up or blew somebody away, since that's the focus here.

[Dio]

Theft is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Lying is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Jealousy is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.

Way to miss my point entirely.

No, you didn't talk about sin, this thread's not about sin, it's about violence. You're trying to change the point to avoid answering the question.

[olevetonahill]

Las???

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/jdu/lowres/jdun167l.jpg

[GottaHavePride]

mark me down as a non-religious person opposed to abortion

and i'm having a hard time really feeling bad hearing about the shooting of a late term abortionist

I mean, I'm not a fan of the guy, but I have some issues with him being shot.

1. Anyone that thinks shooting him will help eliminate abortions is an idiot. They've been trying for at LEAST 30 years to convict this guy of a crime. It hasn't worked, because according to the way Kansas laws are written, what he's doing is legal. They've also been trying for at least that long to change the laws in Kansas. That hasn't worked either. So every once in a while they try to kill him. Removing him doesn't change the fact that it's still legal in Kansas. Someone out there will replace him unless his opposition manages to change the laws.

2. IF the person that shot him did it using the "for the greater good" argument, refer to reason number one - shooting one guy solves nothing if the laws in place remain unchanged. IF the person that shot him did it on religious grounds, well, either THOU SHALT NOT KILL applies to everyone or it doesn't. It doesn't apply to Tiller and somehow miraculously not apply to the person that killed him.

[yermom]

well, it could also intimidate others from taking his path

now you have to wonder how a jury in Kansas is going to deal with this...

[KC//CRIMSON]

well, it could also intimidate others from taking his path

now you have to wonder how a jury in Kansas is going to deal with this...

Any jury worth a *hit would convict this clown.

[OU_Sooners75]

Irony for a Christian at its best!

Kill a person going to church!


LMFAO at all religous robots!

[AggieTool]

like I said, it's easy to pillory religious folks. Especially when something like this happens. But, I still say, irreligious people can and do oppose abortion on moral/ethical grounds. I hear folks all the time assert religious folks do not have a corner on morality.

Our laws, which are not handed down by clergy, state that if you kill a pregnant women, you can be charged with two counts. If you accidently or deliberately injure a pregnant women, and she loses her baby, you can be charged with homicide. OTOH, aborting a fetus under legal conditions is not a crime. Therefore, it seems to me that the critical difference is whether or not the mom wanted the child to decide if it's homicide.

I just find it curious that we don't distinguish crimes against persons on whether or not anyone cherished the victim in any other area of the law. And I know, lots of folks don't consider an unborn child a person. I get it. I for one, think if the fetus is capable of life outside the womb, even with help from neonatologists, that fetus is a person.

That's the crux.

I agree religion isn't necessary to have morals, and in fact I despise abortion in all its forms even though I have the same faith as Thomas Jefferson.

But to think this wacko that shot the doc wasn't motivated by more than benign morals is naive.

Lets face it, not only have the fundamentalist evangelical right hijacked the conservative/republican party (much like the Taliban and AQ have hijacked Islam), but they have spawned the likes this murderer and others that feel justified in what they do because they think God is on their side.

Neg away...

[OU_Sooners75]

well, it could also intimidate others from taking his path

now you have to wonder how a jury in Kansas is going to deal with this...


You wonder?

Are you thinking us Kansans are nothing but cult christian followers or uncivilized led by the church?

:confused:

[AggieTool]

So...prejudice is bad....except for your prejudices. Got it.

Persecution complex much?:D

[AggieTool]

Dude, there is plenty of inconsistency and hyprocrisy to go around on this issue.

Really?

Name one murder or act of terrorism committed by a moderate.:)

[AggieTool]

Any jury worth a *hit would convict this clown.

And sentence him to death.;)

[Harry Beanbag]

Lets face it, not only have the fundamentalist evangelical right hijacked the conservative/republican party (much like the Taliban and AQ have hijacked Islam), but they have spawned the likes this murderer and others that feel justified in what they do because they think God is on their side.


Worst analogy ever.

[oumartin]

sounds like the perfect late term abortion!

dude deserved it

Sure hope he had enough time to repent while he was bleeding everywhere cuz if not he is gonna be frying in hell!

[Crucifax Autumn]

Why don't you clarify your position on this. I'm not sure how you really feel!

[Sooner98]

I can't wait for the day when humans wake up and leave their religion and all the intolerant baggage that weighs them down.

Yes, we should all become atheists, who have NO intolerant baggage whatsoever. Oh, except for the whole thing where atheists have murdered more than 100 million people worldwide in the last century alone, but let's just overlook that, okay?

[OU_Sooners75]

sounds like the perfect late term abortion!

dude deserved it

Sure hope he had enough time to repent while he was bleeding everywhere cuz if not he is gonna be frying in hell!


Bad taste.

Who cares what the guy did for a living....no one deserves to have their life taken from them because of some derranged religious lunatic.

[oumartin]

Who said this guy that did this wonderful work was religious. you are freakin' pathetic.

yeah, I like your spec comment. how would I feel if he were my family member? I would disown the POS for killing a child. How many lives did this turd of a dr. take for a living? you know whats bad. He can only die once. I hope god makes him suffer for each child he murdered.

Yes, this dr. was a murderer.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Well, so is the guy that killed him in every legal sense. I am personally against abortion in my own life.

I'm also against doctors treating symptoms instead of healing people but I'm not gonna go shoot every one of them that uses his prescription pad more than his scalpel.

[oumartin]

Hey, I dont' think anyone here is defending the guy that shot the POS dr. He will get his as well. Just glad he used the bullet on this bastard instead of someone that didn't deserve it.

[OU_Sooners75]

Who said this guy that did this wonderful work was religious. you are freakin' pathetic.

yeah, I like your spec comment. how would I feel if he were my family member? I would disown the POS for killing a child. How many lives did this turd of a dr. take for a living? you know whats bad. He can only die once. I hope god makes him suffer for each child he murdered.

Yes, this dr. was a murderer.


It is all over the local news here you ****ing moronic tool.

Yes, I live a mere 45 minutes north of wichita.

I do not agree with the guys choice of profession...but it was legal!

Understand that, LEGAL!!!!! Meaning he could do it lawfully and not be labled a murderer in KANSAS.

And only a ****ing retard would condone what the murderer (not the doctor) did.

[OU_Sooners75]

Hey, I dont' think anyone here is defending the guy that shot the POS dr. He will get his as well. Just glad he used the bullet on this bastard instead of someone that didn't deserve it.


So you are not defending the guys actions?

You may not be defending them persay...but you damn sure are condoning them.


http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2623766&postcount=41

[Okla-homey]

This thread can't last much longer, so I wanna get this in. I heard this evening, from a media source so it could be inaccurate, that the late Dr. Tiller ran one of only three (3) facilities in the US at which a mother could have an abortion after 21 gestational weeks.

Now here's the thing. Anyone who could deliberately kill a >21 week baby, no questions asked, then clean-up the mess, is, well, a monster. Period.

He shouldn't have been shot in the head for it by a vigilante, and there is no such thing as vigilante justice because "vigilante justice" is a contradiction in terms, but...dang! 21 weeks. That's seven months along. That's a baby folks. It's long since lost its tail and gills. And this guy, again according to media sources, would do these procedures right up until the due date. That's just nasty. period.

And, FWIW, I have more sympathy for the kid who got drilled by the pharmacist in OKC last week than this Tiller guy.

[OU_Sooners75]

This thread can't last much longer, so I wanna get this in. I heard this evening, from a media source so it could be inaccurate, that the late Dr. Tiller ran one of only three (3) facilities in the US at which a mother could have an abortion after 21 gestational weeks.

Now here's the thing. Anyone who could deliberately kill a >21 week baby, no questions asked, then clean-up the mess, is, well, a monster. Period.

He shouldn't have been shot in the head for it by a vigilante, and there is no such thing as vigilante justice because "vigilante justice" is a contradiction in terms, but...dang! 21 weeks. That's seven months along. That's a baby folks. It's long since lost its tail and gills. And this guy, again according to media sources, would do these procedures right up until the due date. That's just nasty. period.


I agree 100%!

however, unlike other people in this thread, I do not condone what the doctor or vigilante did.

[oumartin]

Dr. should have chosen another line of work. oops. hazards of the job.

[tommieharris91]

sounds like the perfect late term abortion!

dude deserved it

Sure hope he had enough time to repent while he was bleeding everywhere cuz if not he is gonna be frying in hell!

Only those without sin should cast the first stone.

[OU_Sooners75]

LMFAO....good job martin.
Nice spek comment...I actually LOLed at it!


I do agree, my mom should have had one of those late term abortions...I mean, look at me...I think with an open mind. I do not condone killing of innocence...I must be a horrible person.

Too bad others cannot say that!

[olevetonahill]

Yer Mom pretty much hit fer me
I dont condone the dudes Murder
I aint gonna cry about it either
All Im sayin

[Jerk]

IBTL

[AggieTool]

sounds like the perfect late term abortion!

dude deserved it

Sure hope he had enough time to repent while he was bleeding everywhere cuz if not he is gonna be frying in hell!

Case in point.:D

[JohnnyMack]

Was this Dr. doing anything illegal?

[AggieTool]

Yes, we should all become atheists, who have NO intolerant baggage whatsoever. Oh, except for the whole thing where atheists have murdered more than 100 million people worldwide in the last century alone, but let's just overlook that, okay?

And Christians have probablyy slaughtered a billion in the last few centuries...but hey, who's counting.;)

[OU_Sooners75]

Was this Dr. doing anything illegal?



Maybe in other states, but not here in Kansas

[AggieTool]

So I am a piece of **** because you are a freaking lunatic?

Have you ever thought with your own brain, or just what the religous nut jobs have told you to think?

Amen bro...

[Okla-homey]

Was this Dr. doing anything illegal?

Well, not at the moment he was killed. He was, I believe, handing out bulletins as an usher in his church's foyer while his wife sang in the choir.

He had, this past Spring I believe, been acquitted of 19 state charges he performed late-term abortions in violation of Kansas law that requires such abortions to be performed to protect the life or health of the mom. He defended on the theory that emotional/mental health is jeopardized among women who are forced to have kids they don't want. Apparently, the jury bought it.

[yermom]

Was this Dr. doing anything illegal?

the law has nothing to do with this debate. just because abortion is legal doesn't mean it's right. the guy that shot him was obviously breaking the law as well, no one is saying that he was legally justified, or ethically, really

but, it's not that hard for me to see this as protecting viable fetuses

[AggieTool]

the law has nothing to do with this debate. just because abortion is legal doesn't mean it's right. the guy that shot him was obviously breaking the law as well, no one is saying that he was legally justified, or ethically, really

but, it's not that hard for me to see this as protecting viable fetuses

Hmmm......:rolleyes:

I wonder how many viable fetuses we kill when we drop bombs on villages full of brown people.:confused:

[yermom]

you might be barking up the wrong tree on that one

[Dio]

And Christians have probablyy slaughtered a billion in the last few centuries...but hey, who's counting.;)

Link?

[AggieTool]

Link?

Link to what?

I said "probably", which is basically a baseless assertion.:)

However, ask yourself...

Between the crusades, witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisitions, Colonialism, and the rejection of science in general...

Well you get the idea...;)

[KABOOKIE]

Slavery was legal. Just like Abortion, I think Americans will wake up on the ethical side of the issue and make it illegal some day.

[JohnnyMack]

Yes, we should all become atheists, who have NO intolerant baggage whatsoever. Oh, except for the whole thing where atheists have murdered more than 100 million people worldwide in the last century alone, but let's just overlook that, okay?

That's really not a great argument you're making. I'll assume you're referring to the purges carried out by Stalin & Mao. Problem as I see it is that they weren't killing people who weren't Atheists, they were killing people opposed to them politically. It would be like arguing that FDR was a Christian who fire-bombed the innocent civilians of Dresden & Tokyo. Or saying that the good Baptist Harry Truman dropped nuclear bombs on the women and children of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

And please don't include Hitler in your argument, just read Mein Kampf and you'll get the idea he wasn't an Atheist.

In the end Atheism has nothing to do with any of the actions carried out by the people you're talking about. Meanwhile I'll bet you a dollar to a hole in a donut that the guy who gunned down this Dr. did so with a nice link between the gun he used and the Bible he read.

[KABOOKIE]

Sooooooo, killing someone because they don't beleive the same moral and ethical religious beliefs is bad but, doing so in the name of poltical activism is AOK! Gotcha!

I'm pretty sure this killer and the guy who shot him were opposed politically....

But, nice way to dodge the hypocritical bullet.

[JohnnyMack]

Sooooooo, killing someone because they don't beleive the same moral and ethical religious beliefs is bad but, doing so in the name of poltical activism is AOK! Gotcha!

I'm pretty sure this killer and the guy who shot him were opposed politically....

But, nice way to dodge the hypocritical bullet.

I didn't say it was OK, I said there was no causal link between the actions of Stalin & Mao and Atheism.

Again, I'd be willing to wager than in the specific instance of the killing of this abortion Dr. that the killer's motivation came more from his mythological underpinnings than it did from his political ones.

[GrapevineSooner]

You're probably right, Johnny.

But what point does that prove?

I mean, if somebody who identified themselves as an extremist pro-lifer decided to go to the next pro-life rally in their town, gunned down everybody there, then used the rationalization that at least one of those people who attended the rally was the next likely person to go murder an abortion doc, does that invalidate the opinions of everyone who is pro-choice?

Of course not.

There's reasonable people in the world who take differing views on issues. And then there's extremists who use those stances as rationalizations for their incorrect actions. And in this case, it was a horribly incorrect action.

And like I said earlier, just about everybody I know who are of faith are denouncing this man's actions as wrong and for which he deserves to be punished. I'm sure a jury of his peers in Kansas would probably come to the same conclusion.

[achiro]

I mean, I'm not a fan of the guy, but I have some issues with him being shot.

1. Anyone that thinks shooting him will help eliminate abortions is an idiot. They've been trying for at LEAST 30 years to convict this guy of a crime. It hasn't worked, because according to the way Kansas laws are written, what he's doing is legal. They've also been trying for at least that long to change the laws in Kansas. That hasn't worked either. So every once in a while they try to kill him. Removing him doesn't change the fact that it's still legal in Kansas. Someone out there will replace him unless his opposition manages to change the laws.

Who are "they" anyway? There is no way you should be lumping people who try to change the laws or even convict him using current law to the wacko that killed him.

[GottaHavePride]

OK, my "they"s were vague - there's one group of "them" that are rational opponents of abortion, working within the legal framework of government to try to either change Kansas law to make those abortions illegal or convict Tiller of some sort of crime to stop his practice.

The other group of "them" are the extremist lunatics that have bombed his office (more than once that I recall) and shot him twice, killing him the most recent time. In this group I also include the people who drive the rolling billboard trucks forcing everyone in this damn city to look at pictures of aborted fetuses as they drive to work.

[Mixer!]

21 weeks. That's seven months along.

7 days x 52 weeks = 364 days

52 weeks ÷4 = 13 weeks

12 months ÷ 4 = 3 months

So unless I've missed something, 21 weeks = 5¼ months at most.







Carry on. :cool:

[rainiersooner]

While agree, it sounds like murder, and the suspect captured shortly thereafter will probably be convicted, and it seems inconsistent to be "pro-life" and also a murderer, remember one thing.

And before I go on, please know that I don't endorse this sort of thing. To be clear, DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE EXCEPT IN SELF-DEFENSE!

Now, all that said, it is entirely possible, and very likely, the shooter felt that by killing Dr. Tiller, he was prospectively saving countless innocent unborn babies. I lived up in Wichita during the "Summer of Mercy" (1990?) when thousands came to town from around the country to (mostly) peacefully protest.

They targeted Tiller especially because it was believed that he conducted late-term abortions which are particularly onerous to folks folks who oppose abortion rights. Even many folks who are okay with first tri-mester abortions, get squeamish at the notion of aborting a fetus/baby older than 24 gestational weeks.

In that sense, there is a thread of commonality between folks who would kill an abortionist and extremist abolitionists like John Brown who felt it was okay to kill slave-owners...many of whom were living in Kansas when he killed them. To this very day, John Brown is revered and venerated by a lot of folks in this country.

Maybe its something in the water up there that brings that extremism out in folks. ;)

And one more thing, while most pro-life folks are also people of faith, I beleive it is entirely possible to oppose abortion based completely on moral/ethical grounds without bringing religion into it.

I'm sure that most people who kill find a way to justify it before they do it. Bravo!!!

[rainiersooner]

I mean, I'm not a fan of the guy, but I have some issues with him being shot.

1. Anyone that thinks shooting him will help eliminate abortions is an idiot. They've been trying for at LEAST 30 years to convict this guy of a crime. It hasn't worked, because according to the way Kansas laws are written, what he's doing is legal. They've also been trying for at least that long to change the laws in Kansas. That hasn't worked either. So every once in a while they try to kill him. Removing him doesn't change the fact that it's still legal in Kansas. Someone out there will replace him unless his opposition manages to change the laws.

2. IF the person that shot him did it using the "for the greater good" argument, refer to reason number one - shooting one guy solves nothing if the laws in place remain unchanged. IF the person that shot him did it on religious grounds, well, either THOU SHALT NOT KILL applies to everyone or it doesn't. It doesn't apply to Tiller and somehow miraculously not apply to the person that killed him.

Could not have said it better myself. Let the good Lord judge. Me, I'm against killing of all kinds.

[Crucifax Autumn]

So am I despite my sig!

[JLEW1818]

Hey non-christian liberals.......

OBAMA IS A CHRISTIAN!!!!




:)

[Fraggle145]

well, it could also intimidate others from taking his path

now you have to wonder how a jury in Kansas is going to deal with this...


the law has nothing to do with this debate. just because abortion is legal doesn't mean it's right. the guy that shot him was obviously breaking the law as well, no one is saying that he was legally justified, or ethically, really

but, it's not that hard for me to see this as protecting viable fetuses

I dont see how you can say this. I get every person who is pro-life hates this guy and isnt sad to see him go. You seem to be contradicting yourself, because in an earlier post you imply this is justified, especially as a way of intimidating others. Religious or not the killing of others to intimidate is wrong. And this about legality. Taking the law into one's own hands is to force one's own agenda is wrong.

To me it is the same thing as what a terrorist does. Its against the law but we are going to kill you or threaten to kill you anyway to try to intimidate you. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but its the way I feel about it.

Just because you dont think it is right doesnt mean that it is wrong. If the majority saw it this way then abortions wouldnt be legal.

Its not hard for me to see how the abortionist could be seen to be protecting families and the public as well.

I guess I just dont get your positions on torture etc... but then murdering this guy in cold blood on the church steps is kinda okay. :pop:

[Fraggle145]

Man I hate the use of Link? as an argument...


And Christians have probablyy slaughtered a billion in the last few centuries...but hey, who's counting.;)


Link?

Anyone could have just as easily said Link? to this


Yes, we should all become atheists, who have NO intolerant baggage whatsoever. Oh, except for the whole thing where atheists have murdered more than 100 million people worldwide in the last century alone, but let's just overlook that, okay?

I mean Johnny Mack addressed it, attributing things to people just because they are a member of one group doesnt mean it is the position of the majority of that group. I mean if this was the case like Johnny Mack said the Christians would be responsible for the holocaust as Hitler proclaimed himself to be christian.

I am not of course saying I believe this. The point I am trying to make is that the use of Link? to push the burden of proof argument is overdone, especially in religious arguments when most of it is either based on faith or twists of the facts by both sides

[yermom]

i never said i thought it was justified. i was just responding to the statement that this murder was not going to change anything. if abortion doctors were afraid to even go to church, not just of getting bombed at the office, they might stop doing it. again, i'm not condoning such behavior.

with the intimidation thing, that's kinda what i was getting at. it's like a hate crime or terrorism

i'm still finding it a little hard to weep for the guy.

in my book he might as well have been smothering toddlers

[LosAngelesSooner]

Las???

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/jdu/lowres/jdun167l.jpg


No, you didn't talk about sin, this thread's not about sin, it's about violence. You're trying to change the point to avoid answering the question.


There are very, very few "Jesus haters" anywhere in the world.

There are plenty of us who hate those who use "Jesus" and a bastardization of His teachings to sow hate and bigotry and violence and evil throughout the world. Far too many do things like THIS in His name.


Theft is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Lying is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Jealousy is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.

Way to miss my point entirely.THAT flow of conversation was what I was addressing.

The "Jesus Haters" comment.

There are plenty of people who hate some of the "FOLLOWERS" of Jesus, but very few who hate the man Himself.

Try to keep up.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Link to what?

I said "probably", which is basically a baseless assertion.:)

However, ask yourself...

Between the crusades, witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisitions, Colonialism, and the rejection of science in general...

Well you get the idea...;)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/brokn68/flamebait.jpg

You're being way too obvious.

[LosAngelesSooner]

This thread is due for a lock and OUMartin is most likely gonna get a nice time out for all of his spek comments and posts in this thread.

One last comment from me and I'm out: Murder is wrong. This guy was murdered. Third Trimester abortions are wrong, but legal. Change the laws, don't assassinate people. I hope the murderer fries.

[Collier11]

^^^ This, it is not any mans right to be judge, jury, and executioner...I hate whole heartedly what that doctor was doing, enabling, whatever you want to call it but it doesnt give anyone a right to murder him.

Having said that, I dont know that God will look too kindly on the murder of babies

[tommieharris91]

Hey non-christian liberals.......

OBAMA IS A CHRISTIAN!!!!




:)

Weren't you one of the guys saying he was a Muslim? ;)

[Collier11]

Weren't you one of the guys saying he was a Muslim? ;)

anti-christ

[Salt City Sooner]

Well, not at the moment he was killed. He was, I believe, handing out bulletins as an usher in his church's foyer while his wife sang in the choir.

He had, this past Spring I believe, been acquitted of 19 state charges he performed late-term abortions in violation of Kansas law that requires such abortions to be performed to protect the life or health of the mom. He defended on the theory that emotional/mental health is jeopardized among women who are forced to have kids they don't want. Apparently, the jury bought it.
That's not what the trial was for. He was tried for not getting an independent second opinion. The prosecutor argued that the doctor whom he got those 2nd opinions from was essentially an employee of his. The jury didn't agree.

[batonrougesooner]

Just got to this thread. Haven't read it all so forgive me if it's been stated.

I'm personally prolife but the abortion debate doesn't really stir me up either way. One thing I have to state however is how the hell can you abort a fetus at 24 weeks? That is a viable fetus. If a mother came into the hospital contracting to deliver a fetus at 24 weeks, everything would be done to save the baby. Point is greater than 20 weeks is technically viable (but really 24 weeks has a decent shot at life). Forgetting the abortion debate, from a medical standpoint, how can you justifiy the elective termination of a pregnancy at that date?

Not saying this guy deserved to die for it. Not like he was robbing a pharmacy or something.

[Collier11]

Not saying this guy deserved to die for it. Not like he was robbing a pharmacy or something.

Zing! :D

[OU_Sooners75]

Oh...and oumartin...

It is being reported that the guy Scott whatever (last name slips my mind right now), was from the KC area.

it is also being reported that on Saturdays, he would hold bible teachings or studies.

yeah, pretty sure this guy was a religious nut job.

Now, that is not saying all of you are nut job, just most. :)

[OU_Sooners75]

Slavery was legal. Just like Abortion, I think Americans will wake up on the ethical side of the issue and make it illegal some day.


So all abortions are immoral i take it?

What if the mother is in danger of losing her life because of the pregnacy? just let her die and save the kid?

LMFAO!!!

Contradiction at its finest people!

I do not think abortion should be used as a way of birth control. However, under certain circumstances, I can see why it would be appropiate.

Nature is the biggest abortionist. What are you going to do to mother nature?

[Collier11]

So all abortions are immoral i take it?

What if the mother is in danger of losing her life because of the pregnacy? just let her die and save the kid?

LMFAO!!!

Contradiction at its finest people!

I do not think abortion should be used as a way of birth control. However, under certain circumstances, I can see why it would be appropiate.

Nature is the biggest abortionist. What are you going to do to mother nature?

I think that is the only time when it is somewhat ok

[batonrougesooner]

Can anybody give me an example of a condition where the mother's life would be in danger if an abortion was not performed?

[Collier11]

ive not heard of any but im sure there are some, they are likely very rare

[OU_Sooners75]

Can anybody give me an example of a condition where the mother's life would be in danger if an abortion was not performed?

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/pregnancyandchildbirth/preg4882.html

Enjoy.

It is called being in a dangerous pregnancy..and my Twin brother and his wife ended up giving birth to a still born thanks for them not knowing the warning signs. The complications were great for both mother and child. And unfortunately the child died before birth.

This in return damn near killed my sister-in-law.

It does not happen often, but it can and does happen.

you may be a doctor...but please do not act like you specialize as a OB-GYN. Or that you know every damn thing in the medical world.

[batonrougesooner]

Another thought...(First in jest in then in all seriousness)

Anyone else notice the irony in the abortion debate?

The liberals, who are pro-abortion, are the ones who would most likely benefit if all children who were to be aborted were to be born and grow up into voting adults. Typically minority, lower socioeconomic class. These people by a large majority vote for liberal candidates.

The conservatives, who are pro-life, are the one's who want to see abortion outlawed and these babies born. Same people who want to cut social welfare programs. Who is going to pay for all these babies and baby mommas to have milk and food? Plus, these unwanted babies the conservatives are trying to save will also one day grow up and vote them out of office. Ungrateful little almost aborted bastards.

I'm a conservative and I'm prolife but I just can't help pointing out the irony.

But in all seriousness and back to reality...

We just adopted a newborn little baby girl. The most precious thing I've ever laid eyes upon. She was in two other people's view (mom and dad) a mistake and an inconvienience. To us she is a blessing from God. Kind of makes the debate real, you know?

[batonrougesooner]

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/pregnancyandchildbirth/preg4882.html

Enjoy.

It is called being in a dangerous pregnancy..and my Twin brother and his wife ended up giving birth to a still born thanks for them not knowing the warning signs. The complications were great for both mother and child. And unfortunately the child died before birth.

This in return damn near killed my sister-in-law.

It does not happen often, but it can and does happen.

you may be a doctor...but please do not act like you specialize as a OB-GYN. Ot that you know every damn thing in the medical world.

I just wanted to see if anyone knew of any conditions where this was a concern. The prevalence of these conditions is low. Some act like there are women dying everyday because they couldn't get an abortion. You and I both know this isn't true.

[OU_Sooners75]

Another thought...(First in jest in then in all seriousness)

Anyone else notice the irony in the abortion debate?

The liberals, who are pro-abortion, are the ones who would most likely benefit if all children who were to be aborted were to be born and grow up into voting adults. Typically minority, lower socioeconomic class. These people by a large majority vote for liberal candidates.

The conservatives, who are pro-life, are the one's who want to see abortion outlawed and these babies born. Same people who want to cut social welfare programs. Who is going to pay for all these babies and baby mommas to have milk and food? Plus, these unwanted babies the conservatives are trying to save will also one day grow up and vote them out of office. Ungrateful little almost aborted bastards.

I'm a conservative and I'm prolife but I just can't help pointing out the irony.

But in all seriousness and back to reality...

We just adopted a newborn little baby girl. The most precious thing I've ever laid eyes upon. She was in two other people's view (mom and dad) a mistake and an inconvienience. To us she is a blessing from God. Kind of makes the debate real, you know?


Congrats on teh adoption.

It is a better alternative than abortion. Like I said, abortion should not be used unless there are severe medical complications.

[OU_Sooners75]

I just wanted to see if anyone knew of any conditions where this was a concern. The prevalence of these conditions is low. Some act like there are women dying everyday because they couldn't get an abortion. You and I both know this isn't true.


You are correct, it does not happen everyday.

But it is sad that some (not saying you) thinks it never happens at all.

[batonrougesooner]

Oh wow...not liberals are lower class citizens?

Phuck you dude.

Take your elitist *** and go wrestle a gator! :D

Heh. Not exactly.

The most elitist people I know are liberals.

You have to admit though that it is typically the minority and lower socioeconomic classes that as a group vote for the libs. Less abortions in general means more votes for the liberals. Irony.

[KABOOKIE]

So all abortions are immoral i take it?

Certainly those that are done to convenience the mother or parents are.


However, under certain circumstances, I can see why it would be appropiate.

Rape, incest whole heartedly agree but, you better get it done before there's a heartbeat.


Nature is the biggest abortionist. What are you going to do to mother nature?

This is quite possibly the dumbest argument or correlation any pro-choicers can make.

[batonrougesooner]

But it is sad that some (not saying you) .

Yes you were.

[OU_Sooners75]

Certainly those that are done to convenience the mother or parents are.

I think I just stated that!



Rape, incest whole heartedly agree but, you better get it done before there's a heartbeat.

You do realize that pregnancy is normally detected after a heartbeat has formed, right? It usually starts within 22 days after conception. Most women do not find out that they are pregnant until they are about a month along. Hence the term 9 months, when it is actually 40 weeks, or closer to 10 months.



This is quite possibly the dumbest argument or correlation any pro-choicers can make.

I am not pro choice. I am in the middle. I think morally abortions should be illegal when it comes to a woman or set of wouldbe parents would use it as birth control. I do not believe if the woman got raped or because of incest, that an abortion should be performed. There are couples in this nation that cannot have kids, so adoption is a very good option.

However, there should be an exception in that law...and that is if the woman is in a dangerous pregnancy.

[OU_Sooners75]

Yes you were.

:rolleyes:

If I was talking about you, I am not that big of a ***** to hide it.

[Fraggle145]

Certainly those that are done to convenience the mother or parents are.

for the sake for argument: What about for the sake of the child if they cant care for the baby? Who is going to care for the baby? not all of those children get a second chance or a happy ending like batonrougesooner's baby girl (Congrats!).

I just dont think this issue is as cut and dried as you make it out to be. :O

[batonrougesooner]

:rolleyes:

If I was talking about you, I am not that big of a ***** to hide it.

You posted a link with the instructions to "enjoy" and then made some comment about specializing in OBGYN.

yes, you were.

Just admit it before we go all juinor high with this thread. :P

[OU_Sooners75]

You posted a link with the instructions to "enjoy" and then made some comment about specializing in OBGYN.

yes, you were.

Just admit it before we go all juinor high with this thread. :P

First I am not a doctor, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...

Finally, You asked if anyone knew anything about it.

Dont ask a rhetorical question if you do not want a rhetorical answer. ;)

[batonrougesooner]

for the sake for argument: What about for the sake of the child if they cant care for the baby? Who is going to care for the baby? not all of those children get a second chance or a happy ending like batonrougesooner's baby girl (Congrats!).

I just dont think this issue is as cut and dried as you make it out to be. :O


Thanks. See you in Sept. ;)

Great question. That's why these topics are tend to have several pages of conversation. Hard question to answer.

Let me answer the question with another question. Have you visited an orphanage lately? Do you know where the Oklahoma County orphanage is? Do you know how many of them are in Oklahoma County?

Do you know how many adoption agencies there are in Oklahoma county? Do you know how many newborns are in foster care in OK county? How many have been waiting months for families to adopt them?

The question is rhetorical but I bet you get my point.

[KABOOKIE]

for the sake for argument: What about for the sake of the child if they cant care for the baby? Who is going to care for the baby? not all of those children get a second chance or a happy ending like batonrougesooner's baby girl (Congrats!).

I just dont think this issue is as cut and dried as you make it out to be. :O

Give life a chance is what I say. Post birth, we get into several other moral and ethical decisions that are tough to make. Life decisions are tough and giving up is the easy convenient way.

[OU_Sooners75]

Give life a chance is what I say. Post birth, we get into several other moral and ethical decisions that are tough to make. Life decisions are tough and giving up is the easy convenient way.


Okay...lets give it a chance...but lets let it kill the mother in the same process.

Or better yet...lets give it a chance and let mother nature sort it out, right?


Natural Selection seems to do great in the wild!

[batonrougesooner]

(this is turning into the drunkytown abortion thread...)

[OU_Sooners75]

(this is turning into the drunkytown abortion thread...)


I know.


Time for bed.

Have a great one!


BOOOOMER!

[Fraggle145]

Thanks. See you in Sept. ;)

Great question. That's why these topics are tend to have several pages of conversation. Hard question to answer.

Let me answer the question with another question. Have you visited an orphanage lately? Do you know where the Oklahoma County orphanage is? Do you know how many of them are in Oklahoma County?

Do you know how many adoption agencies there are in Oklahoma county? Do you know how many newborns are in foster care in OK county? How many have been waiting months for families to adopt them?

The question is rhetorical but I bet you get my point.

Man I cant wait till September...

I get the point, but ;), I would then ask how many others know about these? how easy is it to adopt a child? how many are getting adopted vs. having to have some other type of care required? And how often is that care less desirable? Also what type of selection process goes into being an adoptee? Is everyone that is adopted going to get a decent shot?

I dont know the answers... just throwing stuff at the wall here.

[batonrougesooner]

Short answer because I'm tired and really should sleep.

Newborns are solid gold. Everybody wants them.

Very stringent and thorough process for qualifiying for adoption. If only having a biological child were so difficult....

To my knowledge, there are no orphanages here or anywhere else in the civilized USA. It's all foster care. Alot of the children in foster care are older who come from other dysfunctional situations. Definitely not from the nursery at the hospital.

If you have a newborn who needs a family, they will be adopted within days to a loving family who wants nothing more than to raise a baby in their family. Most newborns are placed prior to birth. Birthmother picks out the family. Baby born. Family takes baby home.

Many more families waiting than babies available.

[badger]

in before the lock. an outrageous act of violence in the name of religion leads to another thread dying an early yet inevitable death. just because some guy acted crazy and shot a guy in a church doesn't mean we all have to act crazy here. :(

[GrapevineSooner]

I BEAT THE LOCK!!!!

[AggieTool]

^^^ This, it is not any mans right to be judge, jury, and executioner...I hate whole heartedly what that doctor was doing, enabling, whatever you want to call it but it doesnt give anyone a right to murder him.

In the minds of the sick and twisted brainwashed Jebus freak, God's law is above mans, so killing him was perfectly legal.:(


Having said that, I dont know that God will look too kindly on the murder of babies

That's right, we DON'T know how God will look at it.;)

I mean if God is so powerful, he could stop the killing of babies right now! Wait...he just did.....:confused:

[GrapevineSooner]

And for the record, I abhor abortion when it's used as a birth control method.

Just about anything else, I tend to side with the mom or dad. Especially in instances where the mother's life is in danger, rape, incest, or if the baby has a debilitating enough birth defect where the viability of the baby is in serious question. Those matters I think the state should stay out of.

But that's just me. ;)

[AggieTool]

And for the record, I abhor abortion when it's used as a birth control method.

Just about anything else, I tend to side with the mom or dad. Especially in instances where the mother's life is in danger, rape, incest, or if the baby has a debilitating enough birth defect where the viability of the baby is in serious question. Those matters I think the state should stay out of.

But that's just me. ;)

Heathen!:mad:

[Collier11]

for the sake for argument: What about for the sake of the child if they cant care for the baby? Who is going to care for the baby? not all of those children get a second chance or a happy ending like batonrougesooner's baby girl (Congrats!).

I just dont think this issue is as cut and dried as you make it out to be. :O

there is always a better alternative

[Dio]

Man I hate the use of Link? as an argument...

I mean Johnny *Mack* addressed it, attributing things to people just because they are a member of one group doesnt mean it is the position of the majority of that group. I mean if this was the case like Johnny *Mack* said the Christians would be responsible for the holocaust as Hitler proclaimed himself to be christian.

I am not of course saying I believe this. The point I am trying to make is that the use of Link? to push the burden of proof argument is overdone, especially in religious arguments when most of it is either based on faith or twists of the facts by both sides

So, sweeping generalizations without proof are fine? That's what I was trying to slow down with the "Link?" post.

[C&CDean]

1. I'm not sorry the POS baby slice and dicer is dead.
2. The guy who shot him should go to jail.
3. I'm happy this particular POS baby slice and dicer will never murder another child again.

[Dio]

No, you didn't talk about sin, this thread's not about sin, it's about violence. You're trying to change the point to avoid answering the question.



There are very, very few "Jesus haters" anywhere in the world.

There are plenty of us who hate those who use "Jesus" and a bastardization of His teachings to sow hate and bigotry and violence and evil throughout the world. Far too many do things like THIS in His name.



Theft is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Lying is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.
Jealousy is non-violent, yet it is still a sin and non-Christlike.

Way to miss my point entirely.



THAT flow of conversation was what I was addressing.

The "Jesus Haters" comment.

There are plenty of people who hate some of the "FOLLOWERS" of Jesus, but very few who hate the man Himself.

Try to keep up.

What's to keep up with? Aside from my response, the quotes you posted are of yourself trying to steer the conversation off on a tangent, so you can use the actions of this one man to get in some good Christian-bashing. Nobody else here is nearly as convinced of your cleverness as you are.

[olevetonahill]

I gots a question
How many of you , have been involved with someone, IE family member, close friend, personal knowledge . Of an abortion ?

Myself Im related to ONE person who had one, I dint agree with it then dont agree with it now

But My point is I didn't have a Dog in that fight . I dont have a dog in THIS fight.

Yall argue yer theories all ya want ;) :rolleyes:

[LosAngelesSooner]

What's to keep up with? Aside from my response, the quotes you posted are of yourself trying to steer the conversation off on a tangent, so you can use the actions of this one man to get in some good Christian-bashing. Nobody else here is nearly as convinced of your cleverness as you are.Yet you're the one being deliberately obtuse in order to avoid the truth of what I stated.

And it wasn't me who tried to steer this thread into a "woe is me" area. That would be some of the uber-Christians who started saying, you guessed it, "Woe is me...they'sa Christian bashing...and we don't go around murderin' people, most of us...boo hoo."


I gots a question
How many of you , have been involved with someone, IE family member, close friend, personal knowledge . Of an abortion ?

Myself Im related to ONE person who had one, I dint agree with it then dont agree with it now

But My point is I didn't have a Dog in that fight . I dont have a dog in THIS fight.

Yall argue yer theories all ya want ;) :rolleyes:I do. Several.

But I also don't have a dog in this fight, which is why even though I'M pro-Life, it's really not my choice either way.

[KABOOKIE]

Apathy. It kept those slave owners happy for a long time.

[Collier11]

I gots a question
How many of you , have been involved with someone, IE family member, close friend, personal knowledge . Of an abortion ?

Myself Im related to ONE person who had one, I dint agree with it then dont agree with it now

But My point is I didn't have a Dog in that fight . I dont have a dog in THIS fight.

Yall argue yer theories all ya want ;) :rolleyes:

I have a very close relationship with someone who did this and I tried everything I could to talk them out of it, unfortunately we have no say as the guy whether it is your wife/gf or just a friend

[olevetonahill]

Apathy. It kept those slave owners happy for a long time.

It aint apathy on my part, Its a complete inability to do a dayum thing about it.

Now If and when its ever brot to a Vote . I assure Ill vote Prolife .
Cussin each others views on a message brd aint accomplishing shat ;)

[Dio]

Yet you're the one being deliberately obtuse in order to avoid the truth of what I stated.

And it wasn't me who tried to steer this thread into a "woe is me" area. That would be some of the uber-Christians who started saying, you guessed it, "Woe is me...they'sa Christian bashing...and we don't go around murderin' people, most of us...boo hoo."


What great truth did you reveal? That Christians aren't perfect? I never said we were. And you can project your tears onto me all you want, but the fact remains that you and Aggie Tool are taking the actions of one- count him- one guy, and using that to excuse your own prejudices, when you both claim to be so enlightened and above the rest of us who are supposedly "prejudiced". I'm not even close to crying about what you type on the internet, I just love to point out when our supposedly "tolerant" lib....er, moderate republican...friends don't extend the tolerance they demand to those they deem "unworthy". There's a certain irony in the hypocrisy of those who scream "hypocrite" the loudest.

[olevetonahill]

I think this board needs a dose of this :D

Desiderada

"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,

and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender,

be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly;

and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant;

They too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons;

they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others,

you may become vain or bitter,

for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;

It is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs,

for the world is full of trickery.

But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;

Many persons strive for high ideals,

and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.

Neither be cynical about love;

for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment

it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the council of the years,

Gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.

But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.

Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a healthy discipline,

Be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars;

you have a right to be here,

and whether or not it is clear to you,

no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore, be at peace with God,

Whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations,

in the noisy confusion of life,

keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,

it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy."

[Collier11]

they will never bring it to a vote cus they know what the outcome would be, its never about what the people want

[olevetonahill]

That were just My Old Hippie point of view :D
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/hippie-48540.jpg

[Collier11]

put some pants on old azz

[Dio]

That were just My Old Hippie point of view :D
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/hippie-48540.jpg

Nice dress, Vet! :D

[JLEW1818]

last USA president who was not a Christian... GO!

prlly dates a ways back.

[JohnnyMack]

Apathy. It kept those slave owners happy for a long time.

You honestly think if abortion was made illegal tomorrow that it would stop them from happening?

[LosAngelesSooner]

What great truth did you reveal? That Christians aren't perfect? I never said we were. And you can project your tears onto me all you want, but the fact remains that you and Aggie Tool are taking the actions of one- count him- one guy, and using that to excuse your own prejudices, when you both claim to be so enlightened and above the rest of us who are supposedly "prejudiced". I'm not even close to crying about what you type on the internet, I just love to point out when our supposedly "tolerant" lib....er, moderate republican...friends don't extend the tolerance they demand to those they deem "unworthy". There's a certain irony in the hypocrisy of those who scream "hypocrite" the loudest.
This post alone proves that you either DON'T read or you choose not to understand WHAT you read.

Aggie Tool and I are so far apart on the issue of faith that to lump us together is just idiotic reactionary bull**** on your part.

And it STILL doesn't devalue what I said: There are VERY FEW PEOPLE on this planet who hate CHRIST. Most of the people you're referring to hate the FOLLOWERS of Christ.

Let's see if you can FINALLY get my very, very, very basic point.

:pop:

[Fraggle145]

So, sweeping generalizations without proof are fine? That's what I was trying to slow down with the "Link?" post.

I am just saying that they were going on from both sides. I didnt see the "link?" request come out till something was said against christians, yet when it was done about athiests it was fine. Or at least seemed fine. Part of my person bias getting in the way, but regardless I cant stand it.

Acting like the internet is the end all and be all is a little crazy considering all the false information out there. Anyone could probably produce about at least 50 links for each side of any topic if they really wanted to.

[KABOOKIE]

Yes and making murder illegal stopped all murders. JHC, Johnny you're smarter than that.

[Collier11]

quite a bit, not entirely but that is impossible with anything. In this country its ok to kill an unborn child but not ok to smoke pot or drive too fast on an open highway lie to a fed who probably lies more than you ever have.

[LosAngelesSooner]

I am a left coast silly boy who uses my magical powers to unlock the one-eyed trouser snake in JohnnyMack's pants and release the monstrosity that it is.

:D




(I cannot change this post at all...for to change it would be to make it less than perfect. Bravo, Dean. :D) - LAS

[stoops the eternal pimp]

some of the posters think you brokered the deal to sell hummers to the chinese...

[Dio]

IT'S ALIIIIIIVE!

[Dio]

some of the posters think you brokered the deal to sell hummers to the chinese...

Nah, that sounds like more of a Chuck Bao thread.


;)

[Mixer!]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/christ_kills_two_injures_seven_in?utm_source=infoc us

As usual the turds have ****ed up this thread.
Go ahead. Enjoy.
this.

[OklahomaRed]

I had to snicker when a dude on the Wall Street Journal posted, "Just an example of an extreme case of a late term abortion."


Seriously, if there are no moral absolutes, then what is right or wrong? Popular opinion? The 51% majority? Who makes the rules?

If there are no moral absolutes then:

Polygamy is okay?
Bestiality is okay?
Pedophilia is okay?

Why not? We say that gay marriage should be the norm? Then why not polygamy? What's the difference? Why would having 3 wives be illegal? It's stupidity and suicide, but why does the government have the right to say one can not have more than one wife or husband?

We're already killing unborn babies. We're already taking from the people that work for their money (stealing & coveting) and giving it to those who do not want to work. We're already buying votes through the support of unions. We allow those with political connections to get away with not paying their taxes, yet we force others to pay theirs or go to prison. Who is to say what is right or wrong? I say, let's just do away with laws, morality, ethics, or any other "personal" bullcr*p and just lock and load. Survival of the fittest. Who care about the sanctity of life? :D

[C&CDean]

I had to snicker when a dude on the Wall Street Journal posted, "Just an example of an extreme case of a late term abortion."


Seriously, if there are no moral absolutes, then what is right or wrong? Popular opinion? The 51% majority? Who makes the rules?

If there are no moral absolutes then:

Polygamy is okay?
Bestiality is okay?
Pedophilia is okay?

Why not? We're already killing unborn babies. We're already taking from the people that work for their money and giving it to those who do not want to work. We're already buying votes through the support of unions. We allow those with political connections to get away with not paying their taxes, yet we force others to pay theirs or go to prison. Who is to say what is right or wrong? I say, let's just do away with laws, morality, ethics, or any other "personal" bullcr*p and just lock and load. Survival of the fittest. Who care about the sanctity of life? :D

Where do I enlist?

[KABOOKIE]

At the military recruiting office. But have a watch out for people who convert to islam.

[C&CDean]

No ****.

[swardboy]

In

[mdklatt]

If there are no moral absolutes then:

Polygamy is okay?
Bestiality is okay?
Pedophilia is okay?

Why not? We say that gay marriage should be the norm?


You know who else equates pedophilia to the activities of consenting adults? NAMBLA. Congratulations.