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Soonerus
5/22/2009, 11:12 PM
...his game winning shot tonight was AMAZING !!!!

JLEW1818
5/23/2009, 01:20 AM
Great shot, great future, zero rings.

JMO...

he tied the Orlando Magic at home... just saying, not much of an accomplishment.

GrapevineSooner
5/23/2009, 07:30 AM
Wait. He just might get his ring this year.

And what's with all the meth behind you? Or is it because I've been on a Breaking Bad kick and those just LOOK like bags of meth?

Soonerus
5/23/2009, 09:02 AM
Great shot, great future, zero rings.

JMO...

he tied the Orlando Magic at home... just saying, not much of an accomplishment.

Thank you Mr. 100% negative thinker...the guy is awesome...

JLEW1818
5/23/2009, 12:38 PM
Thank you Mr. 100% negative thinker...the guy is awesome...


lol please excuse my behavior last night. I was a little bit under the influence..

However about Lebron,

In my opinion after he made that shot last night, he now is 100% in the level of MJ and Kobe. Lebron has now arrived. And i don't think he is leaving. Only thing to hold Lebron back is injury.

This is a great postseason. all 4 games so far have been 3 points or less .

Lebron may not win it this year, but he needs a Pippen or something. Or the dude is gonna kill him self out there.

stonecoldsoonerfan
5/24/2009, 09:14 PM
the cavs are one very lucky shot from being down 0-2 in this series. if they're going to be contenders this year, they'd better get it in gear and start playing like it.

Curly Bill
5/24/2009, 09:17 PM
In my opinion after he made that shot last night, he now is 100% in the level of MJ and Kobe. Lebron has now arrived. And i don't think he is leaving. Only thing to hold Lebron back is injury.


Not quite yet my overenthusiastic young pal. He has to perform at the same level for a number more years to reach that level, though I see no indication he's not going to, and a few rings would be nice too.

Soonerus
5/24/2009, 09:23 PM
Rings reqiure some teammates...

Curly Bill
5/24/2009, 10:40 PM
Rings reqiure some teammates...

He had three teammates that were helping him out seemingly all they could tonight. They were wearing whistles and long pants.

Eielson
5/24/2009, 10:53 PM
Great shot, great future, zero rings.

JMO...

he tied the Orlando Magic at home... just saying, not much of an accomplishment.

Rings do have a little value in judging a player, but they are way overrated by most people. Did KG winning a title last year all of the sudden make him an elite player? No, he will be remembered as an all-time great because of what he did in Minnesota.

Eielson
5/24/2009, 10:54 PM
Rings reqiure some teammates...

Yeah, but Eastern Conference Championships don't.

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 01:18 AM
I'll say it again. When comparing great players to great players, you look at rings.... it really is that simple...

Imagine if Dan Marino and Karl Malone had 1 ring.

I'll take the rings, yall can take the points.

badger
5/25/2009, 07:30 AM
Near the end of the game last night when it mattered the most, it seemed like he just didn't have what it took to win this series like he did in Game 2.

He clunks two free throws... misses a shot... misses another shot... gets called for goal tending... game over.

It just wasn't the Cav's night like it was two days ago. If the NBA still has the same playoff format I remember (outside the Finals), the Cavs will return home down 3-1... they'll win game 5 probably, but still lose the series. I just don't see them winning this series.

Lebron is a good player, but this is not his year.

Soonerus
5/25/2009, 09:26 AM
Cavs will win it all this year then you ring-groupies can stfu...

badger
5/25/2009, 10:14 AM
Cavs will win it all this year then you ring-groupies can stfu...

I seemed to have misplaced my three championship rings ;)
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rZ059Av2JJk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rZ059Av2JJk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

(I am not a Kobe fan, but this ad campaign is funny)

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 10:43 AM
Cavs will win it all this year then you ring-groupies can stfu...



your on! :)

boomersooner28
5/25/2009, 12:01 PM
In a NBA season: 2,000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists. Oscar Robertson did it 4 times. MJ did it once, Bird did it once. Lebron has done it 4 of his first 6 years in the league. Ridiculous.

badger
5/25/2009, 12:33 PM
In a NBA season: 2,000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists. Oscar Robertson did it 4 times. MJ did it once, Bird did it once. Lebron has done it 4 of his first 6 years in the league. Ridiculous.

I know that MJ has six championship rings, but I see a more well-rounded player in Lebron James than I ever saw in MJ. The way Lebron will go up for blocks and get back on defense is something I never really saw in Jordan, who during the first part of his career would only fly for a more spectacular dunk, not for defense... kind of like Kobe's first few years, heh.

Plus, seeing this guy in press conferences is just funny... he has a really bubbly personality and the way his head moves after wins... it's like he's a human bobblehead! Seeing how he celebrated the game winning shot is perhaps the biggest difference between him and the "Next Jordans" or original MJ... he went to celebrate with teammates, as opposed to fist pumping off by himself.

...despite that, I will stick with my original statement that this is not Lebron's year.

Eielson
5/25/2009, 12:44 PM
I'll take the rings, yall can take the points.

You can have Tyler Hansbrough. I'll take Blake Griffin.

badger
5/25/2009, 12:58 PM
It's worth posting again... with all thanks to HeyBC
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/ut9099/hansbrough-motivator.gif

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 01:22 PM
College is way different.

Lebron is great yes. but did yall not watch the game? HE completely choked. He missed 5 fourth quarter free throws. And guess what????? HE MADE ZERO JUMP SHOTS LAST GAME, I REPEAT ZERO!!!!. A jump shot is a shot outside the paint and inside the 3. Mike or Kobe would never let that happen, ever.

I'm not hating on Lebron, but when you compare him to MJ or Kobe, it's bull ****. What about Big Baby Davis against the magic in game 4? He hit a buzzer beater in Orlando to win the game. People are already ****ing crowning Lebron James. MJ, Kobe, and Reggie did this on a regular basis. And MJ played during a time, where the refs allowed the players to be wayyyyy more physical. Now if you cough or breathe on Lebron, its a foul.

ohh and hear this, now the "new" excuse for Lebron is, "his teammates are not good enough".... well maybe he does not have the best supporting cast, but his team was number 1 in the league in wins, and the number 1 defensive team.

give me a damn break, and fans need to get off his jock.

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 01:27 PM
In a NBA season: 2,000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists. Oscar Robertson did it 4 times. MJ did it once, Bird did it once. Lebron has done it 4 of his first 6 years in the league. Ridiculous.

Stats are nice. Oscar is a top 3 point guard of all time. Big O does have him one ring too.

Scott D
5/25/2009, 01:28 PM
not really fair to compare Lebron James to Jordan, it's probably more fair to compare him to Earvin Johnson. But, since you'll never see another team assembled like the Laker teams that Magic was fortunate enough to be drafted to.

28, while that is a great accomplishment, call me when Lebron averages 30.8 ppg 12.5 rpg and 11.4 apg for an entire season.

I wonder what kind of fanfare The Big O or Wilt or Maravich would be coming into with the NBA in this era.

Scott D
5/25/2009, 01:29 PM
I also want to say that George Mikan would dominate Yao in the post ;)

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 01:33 PM
yep Lebrons numbers are sick..... but damn give it a couple years before everyone starts saying he is the next MJ.

and i will tell you this. Lebron needs a "Pippen" on his team. IF Lebron continues to play this physical, he's going to tear himself up. GET THE DUDE ANOTHER PLAYER!

Eielson
5/25/2009, 06:57 PM
ohh and hear this, now the "new" excuse for Lebron is, "his teammates are not good enough".... well maybe he does not have the best supporting cast, but his team was number 1 in the league in wins, and the number 1 defensive team.

give me a damn break, and fans need to get off his jock.


and i will tell you this. Lebron needs a "Pippen" on his team. IF Lebron continues to play this physical, he's going to tear himself up. GET THE DUDE ANOTHER PLAYER!

Which is it?

Eielson
5/25/2009, 07:24 PM
Stats are nice. Oscar is a top 3 point guard of all time. Big O does have him one ring too.

If the Bucks don't draft Lew Alcindor then all the sudden that would make Oscar Robertson not one of the all-time greats?

If Karl Malone had won that championship with the Lakers would that have made him any better of a player?

You can have your Will Perdue and Kurt Rambis.

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 07:25 PM
That's what I was saying... I tend to support him somewhat on the supporting cast thing. But his team aint horrible. I just think the cavs bench is not playing as good as they did in the regular season. His team is good enough to win, if they other players play well.

But in the future, he does need a "Pippen" type guy. Not just team wise, so the dude does not pull a tmac and is basically done at age 30.

No excuses though his team did have the best record in the NBA. My "Pippen" statement mostly means so the dude does not get worn down.

JLEW1818
5/25/2009, 07:26 PM
If the Bucks don't draft Lew Alcindor then all the sudden that would make Oscar Robertson not one of the all-time greats?

If Karl Malone had won that championship with the Lakers would that have made him any better of a player?

You can have your Will Perdue and Kurt Rambis.

Malone is the 2nd best Power Forward of all time..

I'm not talking about average players with rings to great players without rings. I'm talking about elite players with and without, the way you separate them is by rings.

Scott D
5/25/2009, 10:04 PM
If the Bucks don't draft Lew Alcindor then all the sudden that would make Oscar Robertson not one of the all-time greats?

If Karl Malone had won that championship with the Lakers would that have made him any better of a player?

You can have your Will Perdue and Kurt Rambis.

Oscar was in the twilight of his career when the Bucks drafted Alcindor, in fact the only reason Oscar ended up there was because Bob Cousy as a coach had issues with Robertson.

Eielson
5/25/2009, 11:25 PM
Malone is the 2nd best Power Forward of all time..

I'm talking about elite players with and without, the way you separate them is by rings.

I don't even get this. You're making a huge deal about rings and put Malone as 2nd best PF of all time?

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 12:17 PM
I don't even get this. You're making a huge deal about rings and put Malone as 2nd best PF of all time?

Duncan and Malone are the top 2 power Forwards of all time. Very similar talent wise. (Elite)

Duncan gets the nod because he as 4 rings. Malone has zero. You have to separate elite players somehow, and that is how most separate them.

Now a great argument for Malone is, "he played during the Jordan years"



It's not about comparing average players with rings to Elite players with no rings.

It's about comparing Elite to Elite. That's what I'm getting at. Rings usually separate that.

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 12:23 PM
My top 10 NBA players of all time...

1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) Larry Bird
5) Magic Johnson
6) Bill Russell
7) Oscar Robertson
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Tim Duncan


you can't be a top 10 player of all time if you don't have a ring. In my opinion.

Scott D
5/26/2009, 12:52 PM
only thing Duncan is the best at is giving refs a "Who Me?" look after every foul that he never ever ever commits ;)

Eielson
5/26/2009, 01:11 PM
Duncan and Malone are the top 2 power Forwards of all time. Very similar talent wise. (Elite)

Duncan gets the nod because he as 4 rings. Malone has zero. You have to separate elite players somehow, and that is how most separate them.

Now a great argument for Malone is, "he played during the Jordan years"



It's not about comparing average players with rings to Elite players with no rings.

It's about comparing Elite to Elite. That's what I'm getting at. Rings usually separate that.

Bob Petit got a ring, KG got a ring, Elvin Hayes got a ring, Kevin McHale got a ring, Wes Unseld got a ring, Dave DeBusschere got a ring...

Eielson
5/26/2009, 01:42 PM
My top 10 NBA players of all time...

1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) Larry Bird
5) Magic Johnson
6) Bill Russell
7) Oscar Robertson
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Tim Duncan


Why does Michael Jordan always have to be #1? It is almost unheard of to see anybody other than Micheal Jordan at #1. It always amazes me how you can put him ahead of somebody that averaged 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds for a whole season. Wilt even averaged 7.8 and 8.6 assists for a season. They say that if blocks were a stat, he would have had a triple-double every night.

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 02:12 PM
Bob Petit got a ring, KG got a ring, Elvin Hayes got a ring, Kevin McHale got a ring, Wes Unseld got a ring, Dave DeBusschere got a ring...

I don't consider any of those guys better than Malone... that's just my opinion. Malone is number 2 all time in point scored.

Ya it took KG coming to a team with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen to win a ring.

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 02:15 PM
Why does Michael Jordan always have to be #1? It is almost unheard of to see anybody other than Micheal Jordan at #1. It always amazes me how you can put him ahead of somebody that averaged 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds for a whole season. Wilt even averaged 7.8 and 8.6 assists for a season. They say that if blocks were a stat, he would have had a triple-double every night.

Even Magic Johnson will tell you "There's Mike, then the rest of us"

Wilt is my number 2 guy. Maybe if he won 6 rings like MJ he would be up ahead of him? He won 2.

MJ's was just so clutch, something nobody else had consistently.

MJ career stats: 30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, and 5.2 assists
Number 3 all time on the scoring list. And 6 rings..... yikes..

And I'm not an MJ fan.

Scott D
5/26/2009, 02:18 PM
MJ would probably have 0 rings if he'd gone up against those Boston teams of the 60s.

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 02:24 PM
MJ would probably have 0 rings if he'd gone up against those Boston teams of the 60s.

Very debatable point. Those 60s Celtics were pretty damn dirty. But something tells me Michael Jordan would have found a way to win at least one.

But we shall never know.

Scott D
5/26/2009, 02:29 PM
some of those Philadelphia teams Wilt was on were damn good, and would dominate a lot of today's teams (including this year's final four). It was getting past Boston that tripped up the Warriors, after that the title would be cake because the West offered little opposition.

Sooner04
5/26/2009, 02:32 PM
Does the "D" in Scott "D" stand for "Dude, you're wasting your time?"

Scott D
5/26/2009, 03:16 PM
apparently.

badger
5/26/2009, 05:22 PM
soooo... anyone wanna call beforehand how tonight's game turns out?

my beloved team is out, as is the other not-as-beloved team, and NP's team, so I've stopped caring... let's go with the Magic?

(but as soon as JJ Redick goes in, I start cheering hardcore for the Cleveland Lebrons, no questions asked, prediction be [email protected])

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 05:40 PM
I'm not betting on this game, nor the rest of the nba playoffs. to unpredictable. None of the 4 teams are "Great"

uuhh. Lebron will probably shoot about 40 free throws tonight, and win a rigged game.

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 05:41 PM
To be fair, by the time Lebron James is 27 or 28, unless he's some sort of god in disguise, James should lose a pretty significant portion of his athleticism. By the time Jordan was in his early 30s, his jumpshot only improved significantly because it had to...he wasn't getting that explosion young Micheal had. Jordan started in the NBA when he was 22, and by 32 he had turned himself into a predominantly jump-shooting/back to the basket player, mostly because he no longer had the speed and hops to play the face-up, "I'ma dunk on you" game. James should be able to do the same thing, but it's incredibly hard to envision Lebron with both the athleticism he has now and the skills/knowledge of a Micheal Jordan.

Eielson
5/26/2009, 06:33 PM
Even Magic Johnson will tell you "There's Mike, then the rest of us"

Wilt is my number 2 guy. Maybe if he won 6 rings like MJ he would be up ahead of him? He won 2.

MJ's was just so clutch, something nobody else had consistently.

MJ career stats: 30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, and 5.2 assists
Number 3 all time on the scoring list. And 6 rings..... yikes..

And I'm not an MJ fan.

If you ever want to win a MJ/Wilt conversation...do not pull out a stat line.

Wilt career stats: 30.1 points, 22.9 rebounds, 4.4 assists, and blocks weren't a stat back then but it would have been a really high number. Just to top it off, Wilt Chamberlain led the league in shooting percentage 9 out of 14 seasons.

MJ wouldn't have stood a chance against the Celtics.


Meschery had the ball in the line and put up four fakes before attempting his shot. Chamberlain slapped the ball down. Meschery got it again, faked again, and got it blocked again. Enraged and frustrated, the Seattle player ran up to Chamberlain swinging. As if in a scene from The Three Stooges, Chamberlain put his hand on the 6-6 Meschery's head and let him swing away harmlessly. After the third swing, Chamberlain said, "That's enough," and Meschery stopped.

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 10:39 PM
yet another choke tonight for Lebron..... lol the dude was tired... 7 turnovers?

Soonerus
5/26/2009, 10:41 PM
Lebron has like 40 !!

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 10:43 PM
Lebron has like 40 !!

lol i know hes bad ***. i just like to make the Lebron loves mad!!!! :D

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 10:44 PM
WOW. nice shot lebron

Soonerus
5/26/2009, 10:45 PM
It is not over untill the fat lady sings...

JLEW1818
5/26/2009, 10:49 PM
wow i thought the last one was in , wow

Sooner04
5/26/2009, 11:14 PM
MJ had his chance against the Celtics of the 60s, except his name was Elgin Baylor. Know how many times Elgin defeated the Celtics of the 60s? Zero.

He had Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain to help, and still couldn't beat them. Think MJ could do any better with Pippen, Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant? I think not.

Eielson
5/26/2009, 11:41 PM
MJ had his chance against the Celtics of the 60s, except his name was Elgin Baylor. Know how many times Elgin defeated the Celtics of the 60s? Zero.

He had Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain to help, and still couldn't beat them. Think MJ could do any better with Pippen, Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant? I think not.

This is why Red Auerbach should never lose a best coach argument.

(well, actually there are a lot of other reasons)

badger
5/27/2009, 07:19 AM
let's go with the Magic?

NP and I watched the last minute after OU's own Jack Swagger on ECW got done making his "I wanna title" statement... and we were irritated at the state of crap that we saw in that last minute of regulation. Magic taking a 3 with four seconds left? Did we not learn ANYTHING from game 2?

So, Lebron bron gets fouled and he ties the game on the free throw line. Didn't ANYONE in Orlando think to bring a laser pointer or something more distracting than those big arse flags behind the basket?

Then, with the game tied with a half-second to go, I'm like "I'm not staying up for ****ing overtime" to which he agreed... and that awful inbounds pass to Howard that should have been a foul on Dwight the way his arm was hooked around the Cav guy... wow. The Magic crowd booed that?! They're quite lucky that was a no-call.

So, eff both teams. I think we all know that who ever wins the west wins it all.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 10:43 AM
NP and I watched the last minute after OU's own Jack Swagger on ECW got done making his "I wanna title" statement... and we were irritated at the state of crap that we saw in that last minute of regulation. Magic taking a 3 with four seconds left? Did we not learn ANYTHING from game 2?

So, Lebron bron gets fouled and he ties the game on the free throw line. Didn't ANYONE in Orlando think to bring a laser pointer or something more distracting than those big arse flags behind the basket?

Then, with the game tied with a half-second to go, I'm like "I'm not staying up for ****ing overtime" to which he agreed... and that awful inbounds pass to Howard that should have been a foul on Dwight the way his arm was hooked around the Cav guy... wow. The Magic crowd booed that?! They're quite lucky that was a no-call.

So, eff both teams. I think we all know that who ever wins the west wins it all.



possibly. The Magic did however sweep the Lakers during the regular season, which is pretty interesting. The other team to sweep the Lakers were the Bobcats....lol

Scott D
5/27/2009, 10:47 AM
how'd the Magic do against the Nuggets?

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 10:49 AM
MJ had his chance against the Celtics of the 60s, except his name was Elgin Baylor. Know how many times Elgin defeated the Celtics of the 60s? Zero.

He had Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain to help, and still couldn't beat them. Think MJ could do any better with Pippen, Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant? I think not.

Your comparing MJ to Baylor????? really?

Agree that MJ didn't win a nba finals until Pippen was on his team. MJ was rare, he seemed to get better in his 30's. Don't even say Horace Grant was the reason dude, that's just dumb. Sure we could sit here and say so in so could have won in the 60's and blah blah.

What about Kareem? He is the all time point score leader, and he didn't win a nba championship until Magic came to town.

The fact is MJ won 6 nba titles in 6 full season, 8 seasons overall. and he is the 2nd all time leader in points scored. and he is the most clutch player to ever live. Mj also averaged 20 points a game, as a 40 year old man.

Give me a better resume than that.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 10:52 AM
how'd the Magic do against the Nuggets?

1-1. each team won on the road. that would be a great match up.

Scott D
5/27/2009, 10:57 AM
I always wondered how a 36 year old guy could shoot .73% from the field scoring 14ppg and grabbing nearly 19rpg. Then I remember the guy had a career average of 22.9 rpg to go with his 30.1 ppg and .540 fg %

badger
5/27/2009, 11:00 AM
NP wants a Magic-Nuggets matchup so he can LOL @ the NBA and all of the marketing that's been poured into Lebron and Kobe... seriously, we can't go a commercial break without seeing those two... in the same commercial... or in the form of a puppet.

Go Magic and Nuggets! Let's tank the Finals ratings! :D

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:00 AM
I always wondered how a 36 year old guy could shoot .73% from the field scoring 14ppg and grabbing nearly 19rpg. Then I remember the guy had a career average of 22.9 rpg to go with his 30.1 ppg and .540 fg %

not to hard when your a center. compared to a guard.

but Wilt is still number 2 all time, for me.

but its still very impressive

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:02 AM
NP wants a Magic-Nuggets matchup so he can LOL @ the NBA and all of the marketing that's been poured into Lebron and Kobe... seriously, we can't go a commercial break without seeing those two... in the same commercial... or in the form of a puppet.

Go Magic and Nuggets! Let's tank the Finals ratings! :D


I want that too.

Scott D
5/27/2009, 11:02 AM
Jordan didn't play a year for the Harlem Globetrotters ;)

And Wilt didn't retire to come back....three times.

The comebacks tarnish Jordan as much as they do Favre.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:03 AM
MJ shot over 50% from the field. 5 years in a row.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:04 AM
Jordan didn't play a year for the Harlem Globetrotters ;)

And Wilt didn't retire to come back....three times.

The comebacks tarnish Jordan as much as they do Favre.

lol. he should have came back to the lakers, at least go to a winning team.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:05 AM
MJ shot over 50% from the field, 5 seasons in a row, find another guard that did that.

found one, john Stockton, Magic Johnson, both Point guards tho, even though Magic later became a "point forward"

Scott D
5/27/2009, 11:06 AM
Iceman.

Scott D
5/27/2009, 11:08 AM
lol. he should have came back to the lakers, at least go to a winning team.

Wilt played for the Globetrotters between his Junior year at Kansas and his rookie season in Philadelphia.

When he retired, he planned to stay retired. In fact, he dabbled with the beach volleyball circuit and made movies after he retired.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:08 AM
I wish they had a film of that 100 point game, that would have been great.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 11:10 AM
I think MJ holds the record for highest paid salary in a season. like 33 mil or something. that's bull ****.

Sooner04
5/27/2009, 11:21 AM
Your comparing MJ to Baylor????? really?

Agree that MJ didn't win a nba finals until Pippen was on his team. MJ was rare, he seemed to get better in his 30's. Don't even say Horace Grant was the reason dude, that's just dumb. Sure we could sit here and say so in so could have won in the 60's and blah blah.

What about Kareem? He is the all time point score leader, and he didn't win a nba championship until Magic came to town.

The fact is MJ won 6 nba titles in 6 full season, 8 seasons overall. and he is the 2nd all time leader in points scored. and he is the most clutch player to ever live. Mj also averaged 20 points a game, as a 40 year old man.

Give me a better resume than that.
The conversation turned to rings. Lots of great players lost rings in the 60s because the Celtics were so good. Some made the point that MJ could've beaten the Celtics in the 60s. I disagreed.

My proof was that the '69 Lakers team, which featured three of the NBA's 50 greatest players (Baylor, Wilt and Jerry West), STILL couldn't defeat a Celtics team that was past its prime.

I love Michael Jordan. I owned his posters and wore his shoes (still do), but it doesn't take a genius to see he feasted on an NBA watered down by expansion. The NBA of the 60s and the NBA of the 80s, I'd probably take any of those champions against the 90s Bulls. The offensive ability of players back then dwarfed anyone's skills on those Bulls teams except Michael.

And yes, again, I compared MJ to Elgin Baylor. Their stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html) are very similar (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bayloel01.html).

badger
5/27/2009, 11:28 AM
I think MJ holds the record for highest paid salary in a season. like 33 mil or something. that's bull ****.

I think NBA experts agreed back during those seasons of $30 mil-plus that it was considered back-pay for when the Bulls got him on the cheap.

Forgive me if the Internets lied when giving these stats:

1984-85 - $550,000
1985-86 - $630,000
1986-87 - $737,500
1987-88 - $845,000
1988-89 - $2,000,000
1989-90 - $2,250,000
1990-91 - $2,500,000
1991-92 - $3,250,000
1992-93 - $4,000,000
1993-94 - $4,000,000
1994-95 - $3,850,000
1995-96 - $3,850,000
1996-97 - $30,140,000
1997-98 - $33,140,000

Eielson
5/27/2009, 12:04 PM
not to hard when your a center. compared to a guard.

but Wilt is still number 2 all time, for me.

but its still very impressive

If it isn't hard to shoot 73% from the field, then why is that the league record?

badger
5/27/2009, 12:33 PM
If it isn't hard to shoot 73% from the field, then why is that the league record?

Just a hunch - I think Wilt had it easier than today's centers do as far as competition.

Wilt was tall and dwarfed his peers. Were there a lot of seven footers running the NBA courts back then? I have no citations to prove this, but I would have to guess no. Thus, to get his 100-point game, all he had to do was stand underneath the basket and the get ball passed to him constantly. If someone posts the tape of that game like someone on here previously suggested, I am guessing that is what we would witness. How boring.

If Wilt had to go up against other seven footers like today's centers, he would never have gotten 100 points... and would likely not have shot 73 percent from the field.

Eielson
5/27/2009, 12:35 PM
found one, john Stockton, Magic Johnson, both Point guards tho, even though Magic later became a "point forward"

Just going off wikipedia so it may not all be completely accurate...

NBA record for most points per game in a season with 50.4. Second place is 44.8, which of course was Chamberlain. Third place was all the way down to 38.4...which of course, was Chamberlain.

Most points scored in a game, 100. The previous high I believe was 73 or something like that by the Elgin Baylor guy that can't even compare to Jordan of course. The current second place would be Kobe, with 81.
(go Lakers!)

Most 50 point games in a season, 45. No other player had more than 10.

Most 40 point games in a season, 63 times. Wilt is obviously second, and Jordan was third with 37.

Most regular season games with 60 points, 32 times. Kobe is second with...5.

Most career 50 point games, 118. Jordan had 31.

Most career 40 point games, 271. Jordan had 173.

Most consecutive 50 point games, 7. He also had the next highest with 6, 5, and 5.

Most consecutive 40 point games, 14, which was done twice. He also has third with 10.

Most consecutive 30 point games, 65. He holds two and three with 31 and 25.

Most consecutive 20 point games, 126. He holds second with 96.

Wilt holds the record for most points, points per game, and points in a single game for a rookie.

Fewest games to reach 20,000; 25,000; and 30,000 points.

I'm getting bored so I'm just going to copy and paste from here on out. Sorry that it looks sloppy.

NBA Record - Career Total Rebounds (23,924)
NBA Record - Career Rebounds Per Game (22.9)
NBA Record - Most seasons leading the league in rebounds (11)
NBA Record - Most seasons with 1,000 or more rebounds (13)
NBA Record - Rebounds Per Game in a season (27.2)
Chamberlain also holds the next two highest averages with 27.0 in 1959-60 and 25.7 in 1961-62)
NBA Record - Total Rebounds in a season (2,149 in 1960-1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next six highest totals.
NBA Record - Rebounds in a game (55, Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960)
NBA Record - Most rebounds per game by a rookie in a season (27.0)
NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a season (1941)
NBA Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (45 on February 6, 1960)
Chamberlain, as a rookie, also grabbed 43 rebounds in one game, 42 in two others, and 40 in another.
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).
Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)
Also an NBA Finals record.
NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a five game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).
Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 7-game playoff series (220 against the Boston Celtics in 1965).
NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds by a rookie in a game (35 against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960)
Scored a then-playoff record 53 points (still a rookie record) in the same game (a game 5 victory).
NBA All-Star Game Record - Most career rebounds in the NBA All-Star game (197).
NBA All-Star Game Record - Most rebounds in a half (16 in 1960).
Record shared with Bob Pettit

NBA Record - Most consecutive triple-doubles with nine (March 8-20, 1968)
Only player in NBA history to record a double-triple-double (20+ points, 20+ rebounds, 20+ assists in a game)
On February 2, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons, he logged 22 points, 25 rebounds and 21 assists.[20]
Only player in NBA history to record a quadruple double-double (meaning two of either 40 points, 40 rebounds, or 40 assists in a single game).
On November 4, 1959, Chamberlain, in his third game in the NBA, scored 41 points and grabbed a then-rookie record 40 rebounds against the Syracuse Nationals.
On January 15, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Boston Celtics.
On January 25, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored an NBA rookie record 58 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.
On February 6, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed an NBA rookie record 45 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.
On December 8, 1961, Chamberlain scored a then-record 78 points and collected 43 rebounds against the Los Angeles Lakers.
After critics called him a one-dimensional (or even selfish) player, Chamberlain defiantly promised to lead the league in total assists the next season, which he did in 1968 at a rate of 8.6 per game.

NBA Record - Most seasons leading NBA in minutes played (8)
NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading NBA in minutes played (5, from 1959-60 through 1963-64)
NBA Record - Most career minutes played per game (45.8)
Bill Russell is second at 42.3
NBA Record - Most minutes played in a season (3,882 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next four most with 3,836 in 1967-68, 3,806 in 1962-63, 3,773 in 1960-61, and 3,737 in 1965-66
NBA Record - Most minutes played per game for a season (48.5 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the top 7 spots in this category
Chamberlain's 3,882 minutes played out of the team's possible 3,890 left an average of six seconds rest per game.
NBA Record - Most complete games in a season (79 out of 80 games in 1961-62)
NBA Record - Most consecutive complete games in a season (47 in 1961-62)
NBA Playoff Record - Highest average minutes per game in a playoff series (49.33 (296/6) against the New York Knicks in 1968)
NBA Playoff Record - Most minutes played in a three game series (144 against the Syracuse Nationals in 1961)
NBA Playoff Record - Most minutes played in a four game series (195 against the Cincinnati Royals in 1965 and 195 against the Atlanta Hawks in 1970)
Record shared with Jerry Lucas and Oscar Robertson.
NBA Playoff Record - Most minutes played in a six game series (296 against the New York Knicks in 1968)
NBA Finals Record - Most minutes played in a five game series (240 against the New York Knicks in 1973)
Chamberlain never fouled out of a regular season or playoff game in his 14 years in the NBA.[1]

NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading NBA in field goal percentage (5, from 1964-65 through 1968-69)
Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
NBA Record - Highest Field Goal Percentage in a season (72.7% in 1972-73)
Chamberlain also holds the second highest percentage with 68.3% in 1966-67
NBA Record - Most consecutive field goals (35 from February 17, 1967 through February 28, 1967)
NBA Record - Most field goals in a game without a miss (18-18, Philadelphia 76ers vs. the Baltimore Bullets on February 24, 1967)
Chamberlain also holds the next two most with 16-16 (March 19, 1967) and 15-15 (January 20, 1967)

Beat that.

Scott D
5/27/2009, 12:43 PM
Just a hunch - I think Wilt had it easier than today's centers do as far as competition.

Wilt was tall and dwarfed his peers. Were there a lot of seven footers running the NBA courts back then? I have no citations to prove this, but I would have to guess no. Thus, to get his 100-point game, all he had to do was stand underneath the basket and the get ball passed to him constantly. If someone posts the tape of that game like someone on here previously suggested, I am guessing that is what we would witness. How boring.

If Wilt had to go up against other seven footers like today's centers, he would never have gotten 100 points... and would likely not have shot 73 percent from the field.

Wilt only shot 73% in his final season, the rest of his career it was in the upper 50s low 60s. However, seeing as he faced Bill Russell, Willis Reed and Lew Alcindor multiple times in his career, I'd argue that he faced better front court competition than today.

He'd destroy Bynum, Gasol, Howard, Yao, Rasheed, Ilgauskas, Duncan, Shaq, Bogut, etc today.

Shaq in his prime would probably be the only real competition for Wilt even in his later years.

There were more guys in the 6'11 - 7'1 range in the 60s than when George Mikan dominated the post for the Minneapolis Lakers way back in the day.

Sooner04
5/27/2009, 12:53 PM
I cannot imagine what Chamberlain would do to a guy like Bynum. Young kid, punk attitude, rich beyond most people's wildest dreams. The Stilt might have 100 by the end of the 3rd.

The most impressive Chamberlain record? He played 1,205 regular and postseason games in the NBA, and he never once fouled out. Not once. He led the league in minutes played in over half of his NBA seasons and not once, not EVER, did he foul out.

Greg Oden, "The Prototype" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:, once fouled out of a game in less than 12 minutes of court time. For you math wizards.............THAT'S ONE QUARTER!!

Scott D
5/27/2009, 02:55 PM
not to mention Wilt was one of the huge reasons the dunk was banned in college for a long term. I'm pretty sure Kareem commented in his book that he couldn't dunk at ucla because it'd been banned prior to his arrival.

could you imagine today's NBA if players couldn't dunk.....yeah, it'd be better than it is now.

Sooner04
5/27/2009, 04:29 PM
could you imagine today's NBA if players couldn't dunk.....yeah, it'd be better than it is now.
True, but Dwight Howard would be bagging groceries in southwest Atlanta.

stoops the eternal pimp
5/27/2009, 04:53 PM
I cannot imagine what Chamberlain would do to a guy like Bynum. Young kid, punk attitude, rich beyond most people's wildest dreams. The Stilt might have 100 by the end of the 3rd.

The most impressive Chamberlain record? He played 1,205 regular and postseason games in the NBA, and he never once fouled out. Not once. He led the league in minutes played in over half of his NBA seasons and not once, not EVER, did he foul out.

Greg Oden, "The Prototype" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:, once fouled out of a game in less than 12 minutes of court time. For you math wizards.............THAT'S ONE QUARTER!!

Thunder fans should thank God everyday that Portland took that guy

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 06:27 PM
You can compare who ever and their mom to anybody... give me a better resume than Michael Jordan............ still waiting.... "derrr he wouldn't win in the 60's...derrrrrrrrr" well ****ing prove it, ****... you have no proof. you can't go back.

and everyone and their mom knows that if your a center worth a damn, your going to have a great shot percentage. b/c your five feet away from the basket.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 06:29 PM
Wilt Chamberlain would say and did say MJ was the best, and so did Magic. I'll take their opinions over yalls Just b/c they are in my top 10 ever list and might know a little bit more. just saying.

Scott D
5/27/2009, 06:45 PM
You can compare who ever and their mom to anybody... give me a better resume than Michael Jordan............ still waiting.... "derrr he wouldn't win in the 60's...derrrrrrrrr" well ****ing prove it, ****... you have no proof. you can't go back.

and everyone and their mom knows that if your a center worth a damn, your going to have a great shot percentage. b/c your five feet away from the basket.

a better resume? Christ Bob Cousy had a better resume, doesn't mean he was a better player.

Curly Bill
5/27/2009, 07:07 PM
not to hard when your a center. compared to a guard.

but Wilt is still number 2 all time, for me.

but its still very impressive

This is where I call you out my young pal. Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player to date, and it's really not even arguable.

Sooner04
5/27/2009, 07:23 PM
You can compare who ever and their mom to anybody... give me a better resume than Michael Jordan............ still waiting.... "derrr he wouldn't win in the 60's...derrrrrrrrr" well ****ing prove it, ****... you have no proof. you can't go back.

and everyone and their mom knows that if your a center worth a damn, your going to have a great shot percentage. b/c your five feet away from the basket.
Cussing over the Internet. This is drawing to a close.

JLEW1818
5/27/2009, 10:50 PM
This is where I call you out my young pal. Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player to date, and it's really not even arguable.

No chance. 99% of the sports world argues that. (but i know how u feel about them :D ) Back in the 60's is was not hard for a 7 foot center to dominate.

Wilt is arguably not the best at his position, all time (Kareem). Although, I did put Wilt (God bless his soul) as my number 2, behind MJ.

And the 3 point line was no put into the NBA until 1979.... Before then, simply get the ball to wilt and let him score. But his numbers were sick.

Crucifax Autumn
5/28/2009, 01:34 AM
Cussing over the Internet. This is par for the course.

Fixed it for ya!

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 01:52 AM
My all time starting lineup would be

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
Centers: Wilt and Kareem

Don't need power forward!

Eielson
5/28/2009, 02:38 AM
No chance. 99% of the sports world argues that. (but i know how u feel about them :D )

I personally would like to give the sports world a little respect and say only 90%. I believe that it is rare for a sports fan, and almost unheard of for a young sports fan, to think for themself. It gets frustrating to talk sports with kids in your grade when it is nearly impossible to find somebody who doesn't have ESPN to thank for 90% of their opinions.

When I was little I was watching ESPN and one of the highlights I watched sent me screaming to my dad. "DAD! DAMON STOUDAMIRE STOLE THE BALL FROM MICHAEL JORDAN!" It was in that conversation with my dad that I finally learned that everybody gets the ball stolen from them sometimes...even Michael Jordan. That is how brainwashed I was, and if it weren't for a dislike I developed for the Bulls, I also would have blindly accepted this.

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 11:43 AM
I personally would like to give the sports world a little respect and say only 90%. I believe that it is rare for a sports fan, and almost unheard of for a young sports fan, to think for themself. It gets frustrating to talk sports with kids in your grade when it is nearly impossible to find somebody who doesn't have ESPN to thank for 90% of their opinions.

When I was little I was watching ESPN and one of the highlights I watched sent me screaming to my dad. "DAD! DAMON STOUDAMIRE STOLE THE BALL FROM MICHAEL JORDAN!" It was in that conversation with my dad that I finally learned that everybody gets the ball stolen from them sometimes...even Michael Jordan. That is how brainwashed I was, and if it weren't for a dislike I developed for the Bulls, I also would have blindly accepted this.


good point. good post.

I loved watching Damon Stoudamire play. I also like when Penny Hardaway was in his healthy prime.

badger
5/28/2009, 04:53 PM
I loved watching Damon Stoudamire play. I also like when Penny Hardaway was in his healthy prime.

I was still young then, so they were posterized on the walls of my room... the first sports jersey I owned was Penny's. I used to love reading about them in a mag called "Slam." They were featured often.

But... pro sports are a fickle thing. First team all-NBA one season, plagued with injuries the next.

EDIT: Remember when the Raptors w/Damon beat Jordan's record-72-win team? They were one of only 10 losses for the Bulls in that regular season... and the Raptors were still a lottery team then!

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 05:07 PM
I was still young then, so they were posterized on the walls of my room... the first sports jersey I owned was Penny's. I used to love reading about them in a mag called "Slam." They were featured often.

But... pro sports are a fickle thing. First team all-NBA one season, plagued with injuries the next.

EDIT: Remember when the Raptors w/Damon beat Jordan's record-72-win team? They were one of only 10 losses for the Bulls in that regular season... and the Raptors were still a lottery team then!

yep that Bulls team was insane. Here is their schedule of that year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996_games.html

Only lost 2 home games that season, each game lost by 1 point.

Curly Bill
5/28/2009, 06:23 PM
No chance. 99% of the sports world argues that. (but i know how u feel about them :D ) Back in the 60's is was not hard for a 7 foot center to dominate.

Wilt is arguably not the best at his position, all time (Kareem). Although, I did put Wilt (God bless his soul) as my number 2, behind MJ.

And the 3 point line was no put into the NBA until 1979.... Before then, simply get the ball to wilt and let him score. But his numbers were sick.

Pay tention! When I said Chamberlain was the best ever and it's not even arguable, that means that anyone that goes ahead and argues against that is a dumas. :O

Curly Bill
5/28/2009, 06:29 PM
And the 3 point line was no put into the NBA until 1979.... Before then, simply get the ball to wilt and let him score. But his numbers were sick.

...and the 3-point line should help a good big man -- it speads the floor and makes the guards and forwards have to defend farther from the basket and less able to help. If anything Chamberlain suffered from the lack of a 3-pt line because he did draw more double and triple teams because the little guys weren't concerned about defending the 3-pt line.

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 06:37 PM
...and the 3-point line should help a good big man -- it speads the floor and makes the guards and forwards have to defend farther from the basket and less able to help. If anything Chamerlain suffered from the lack of a 3-pt line because he did draw more double and triple teams because the little guys weren't concerned about defending the 3-pt line.

Wilt holds the top 5 single season records for "field goal attempts"

If your going to shoot that much under the basket and be 7'1, your gonna score a lot of points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fga_season.html

sooner59
5/28/2009, 09:55 PM
LeBron would be a lot better if every time he started to step in front of the 3-point line and shoot a long 2, he just took it to the basket and got the bucket or the foul. When the game clock or shot clock is running out, he dribbles up top and it is a foregone conclusion he is taking a long jump shot. That is ok sometimes, but when he does it everytime, its just dumb.....and frustrating.

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:13 PM
If Lebron continues to drive to the basket like this, by the time he is 30 his game will probably be almost done. Unless he develops a MJ/Kobe jump shot.

I think most would agree that Lebrons athleticism is far more impressive then his basketball skills.

Soonerus
5/28/2009, 10:16 PM
If Lebron continues to drive to the basket like this, by the time he is 30 his game will probably be almost done. Unless he develops a MJ/Kobe jump shot.

I think most would agree that Lebrons athleticism is far more impressive then his basketball skills.

blah,blah, blah...like you know shiiiat...

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:20 PM
or just more of a consistent jump shot. It is getting better.

Soonerus
5/28/2009, 10:21 PM
they are still standing...

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:21 PM
The question is will the Cavs be too dead for game 6? How many damn minutes did Lebron play these last 2 games?

Soonerus
5/28/2009, 10:22 PM
still standing...

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:23 PM
still standing...

Not after Saturday. :)

Eielson
5/28/2009, 10:24 PM
Wilt holds the top 5 single season records for "field goal attempts"


All the more amazing he still lead the league in field goal percentage, right?

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:33 PM
All the more amazing he still lead the league in field goal percentage, right?

Him and MJ' scoring average were still exactly the same...and MJ has more career points.

Soonerus
5/28/2009, 10:37 PM
still standing BABY !!!!!

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:41 PM
still standing BABY !!!!!

as much as i hate all the media hype. I want to see Kobe Vs. Lebron. That's something you can't see every day. and can tell the kids about.

then again i would like to win a national title this year too.

Soonerus
5/28/2009, 10:45 PM
I hate to admit this but after futher review, I think Orlando is better...

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 10:53 PM
I hate to admit this but after futher review, I think Orlando is better...

They are a very confusing team to understand.

Curly Bill
5/28/2009, 10:59 PM
They are a very confusing team to understand.

They're either stroking it from 3-pt land or they're not. Howard for all his athleticism doesn't have the low post game to really carry them offensively. Basically if they're hitting their jumpers they're really good, and if they're not then not so good.

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 11:02 PM
They're either stroking it from 3-pt land or they're not. Howard for all his athleticism doesn't have the low post game to really carry them offensively. Basically if they're hitting their jumpers they're really good, and if they're not then not so good.


yep, and just the "threat" of having Howard down low, makes the cavs have to keep him honest. And thats why the Magic have so many open jump shots and 3 chances. Like u said.

and when their jumpers are on, it just opens up howard so much more down low. I must say they are a good team.

JLEW1818
5/28/2009, 11:41 PM
Dang and Jameer Nelson is out. He averaged 16.7 points per game this season.

But Rafer is doing a good job.

Scott D
5/29/2009, 10:11 AM
Him and MJ' scoring average were still exactly the same...and MJ has more career points.

This argument is tired, but keep in mind Wilt was doubleteamed basically his entire career until he joined the Lakers where teams had to respect Wilt's ability to pass to a usually wide open Jerry West. The only team that didn't double Wilt consistently was the one team he had the most trouble with...Boston.

JLEW1818
5/29/2009, 10:40 AM
yep. I still have MJ and Wilt as my 1-2 punch. It was unfortunate for the double teams.

badger
5/29/2009, 10:45 AM
A win's a win, but losing a 22-point lead is kind of a Debbie Downer, especially when the series is about to head back to Orlando

JLEW1818
5/29/2009, 10:48 AM
A win's a win, but losing a 22-point lead is kind of a Debbie Downer, especially when the series is about to head back to Orlando

yep blown leads mean a lot sometimes. This was technically Cleveland's first win this series, without a miracle buzzer beater happening.

But there is something that makes me a little scared that Cleveland might take this... (if i were a Magic fan, I'd be nervous)

and his name is Stan Van Gundy. I said before this postseason never trust a Stan Van Gundy.!!! aka Ron Jeremy

Anywho, game 6 is going to be sick.!

JLEW1818
5/29/2009, 11:40 PM
damn lakers

Scott D
5/30/2009, 10:29 AM
heh, another year the NBA Finals will get a 0 Neilsen raiting in my house.

badger
5/30/2009, 10:17 PM
the Cavs will return home down 3-1... they'll win game 5 probably, but still lose the series. I just don't see them winning this series.

Lebron is a good player, but this is not his year.

:D

Soonerus
5/30/2009, 10:20 PM
He needs to be on a team...

Scott D
5/31/2009, 08:31 AM
Mike Brown should give back that Coach of the Year trophy after the way Ron Jeremy outcoached him in that series.

GrapevineSooner
5/31/2009, 11:07 AM
Yeah, I heard about his brilliant strategy of putting LeBron on the Magic's weak PG.

Isn't it amazing how former Popovich assistants go somewhere else and suck as head coaches?

JLEW1818
5/31/2009, 10:46 PM
Rick Adelman should have been coach of the year.

The Cavs had the best record in the nba, the MVP of the league, and the Coach of the year. and the refs .

they just got out played and out matched. Nobody was bitching about how bad Lebron's team was during the regular season, and the first 2 rounds of the playoffs.

arnold
6/17/2009, 02:38 AM
And what's with all the meth behind you? Or is it because I've been on a Breaking Bad kick and those just LOOK like bags of meth?

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 01:51 PM
The reason why Lebron doesn't really have a real go to move like Kobe and such is because he isn't that great of a basketball player like Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Kobe. But the reason why he gets his points is because his team is built for him to score more and have more assist.

Notice that Lebron handles the ball and make the decision with it most of the time. But I must admit, Lebron is a heck of a player and he's probably the greatest athlete in the history of the NBA but not the greatest basketball player. His game is based on a few dribbles and then charges towards the goal and the opponent either gets run over or have to move out of the way.
... See More
But overall, the reason why he is overrated is because his talent level isn't as good as Kobe, Wade, or Durant but his body makes him almost unstoppable. Lebron isn't the type of player that would be feared by opponents like Kobe or Jordan.

When Jordan or Kobe steps onto the court, the opponents would think that no matter what they do, Kobe or Jordan would still score regardless. Its because their talent level is off the roof. Kobe and Jordan both have so many go to moves and counter moves that defenders don't know where to start.

Lebron on the other hand, if you close out the lane and have the balls to draw charges like the Rockets, then you have a chance to stop him. But most teams don't like drawing charges especially when Lebron takes off down that lane. They rather try to go up and block his dunks and it always end in a poster because Lebron is so strong and he gets up so high that its almost impossible to block him. But the Rockets are probably the only team in the league that has enough balls to get in position in time to draw a charge.

Lebron James is a great player right now. But later down the line when his knees fails on him due to his high flying style of play, a major knee injury is waiting to happen. Once that takes a toll on him, what part of his game would he rely on? He can no longer rush down the lane and hoping to out jump his opponents. He doesn't have the lethal post game like Kobe. He doesn't have the fluid shooting touch like Durant. And he isn't crafty like Wade.

When Jordan got older, he wasn't as athletic like he was in his younger years. But he was still unstoppable. His post game became untouchable. His game had gotten more polish and he became a better player. That is because he was such as great basketball player with so much talents. Lebron doesn't have that to fall back into. Lebron's game is basically blow by his defenders and try to out jump everyone to score.

I think that when Lebron loses his athletic abilities, he would be more of a facilitator and he would no longer be the high scoring machine like he was. I think that the only game he can rely on is his passing abilities. Something kind of like Tmac who lost all his athletic abilities but he still had his great distribution skills. But Tmac still has series of moves to rely on, just not his athletic abilities.

Collier11
3/27/2010, 02:29 PM
He is the best player in the game and already a top 20 talent of all time in the NBA..you are way off. You dont think when Lebron gets older he wont be able to post up more? He will be unstoppable. Look at his shooting and defense, gotten considerably better throughout his career...the guy is only getting better

Collier11
3/27/2010, 02:31 PM
His 1st year he shot 41% and 29% from 2 and 3, now he shoots 50% and 34%. His 1st year he 5.5rpb and 5.9ast, now he is averaging 7 and 7.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 02:48 PM
his inside shooting is so good because the majority are layups and dunks. His jump shot is still average.

His knees will give. This is already his seventh season. His athleticism is far more impressive than his basketball skills.

just wait for the Magic to once again beat the Cavs in the ECF!

Scott D
3/27/2010, 02:49 PM
jlew so bitter because lebron turned him down imo.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 02:50 PM
he was suppose to be in the 2002 draft!!!!!


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Eielson
3/27/2010, 03:46 PM
The reason why Lebron doesn't really have a real go to move like Kobe and such is because he isn't that great of a basketball player like Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Kobe.

The reason he doesn't have hardly any moves is that he doesn't need them.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 04:11 PM
he can't drive to the lane like he does now the rest of his career.

It's funny how nobody really wants to play with him it seems.

If Amare cared so much about "winning" he would have demanded a trade to Cleveland.

after this season we will know a lot more about Lebron.

Collier11
3/27/2010, 05:12 PM
his inside shooting is so good because the majority are layups and dunks. His jump shot is still average.

His knees will give. This is already his seventh season. His athleticism is far more impressive than his basketball skills.

just wait for the Magic to once again beat the Cavs in the ECF!

Has Kobe given out? Lebron is much stronger than Kobe...Fail

Collier11
3/27/2010, 05:14 PM
he can't drive to the lane like he does now the rest of his career.

Have you ever seen his post moves? Fail x2


It's funny how nobody really wants to play with him it seems.

How many superstars played with MJ? Mo Williams made an all star team cus of Lebron, Jamison is a top 25 guy in the league...jlew fail x3



after this season we will know a lot more about Lebron.

whats there to know?

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 05:53 PM
i have seen his post moves and they are nothing special to me, to me. It seems he rarely even posts up.... he drives to the basket, that is his game. it won't be in 5 years. we will see if he can win a ring by then. I doubt it. Magic are getting better, and the Bulls will be the team on the rise in the east.

Superstars with MJ... i guess i could use the same argument "MJ made them better, than what the really were"

and i meant nobody "elite" wants to play with him, Jamison is not elite.

If Bosh or Amare or Wade or somebody like that comes to Cleveland. I'll change my mind.

I remember Pippen came to Houston, and sucked dong.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 05:55 PM
Has Kobe given out? Lebron is much stronger than Kobe...Fail

Lebron style of basketball is not meant to last for a career. Lebron will never have the shot Kobe has, most would agree with that. When Lebron's "drive to the basket 95% of the time game is over; i'm going to be interested to see how good he really is.... but who knows he might go to the NFL and play QB for the cowboys or something, or CF for the Yankees. According to most he is already the greatest sports athlete ever.

he has accomplished zero in terms of legacy.

again as far as skills, his athleticism is better than his basketball skills. it won't last

already 7 long physical seasons.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 06:07 PM
oh and by the way, Lebron is one of the most overrated players in the league according to the NBA Players. article by Sports Illustrated, legit

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1166070/index.htm



go play with your boy AI! :D :D :D

Collier11
3/27/2010, 06:34 PM
Lebron style of basketball is not meant to last for a career. Lebron will never have the shot Kobe has, most would agree with that. When Lebron's "drive to the basket 95% of the time game is over; i'm going to be interested to see how good he really is.... but who knows he might go to the NFL and play QB for the cowboys or something, or CF for the Yankees. According to most he is already the greatest sports athlete ever.

he has accomplished zero in terms of legacy.

again as far as skills, his athleticism is better than his basketball skills. it won't last

already 7 long physical seasons.

Nothing as far as a legacy? He has already went to the Finals once, the conf finals twice, and won an MVP by the age of 25. Jordan didnt even make the finals til his 7th year...I think your hatred for LJ overrides your knowledge

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 06:36 PM
it could. lol

wake me up when he gets his ring. He was 1 lucky shot away from being swept by an average Magic team, who Kobe and crew demolished.


the Lebron does not have any players argument is over. They have had the best record in the NBA the last 2 seasons. The surrounding players are fine.

yankee
3/27/2010, 06:53 PM
it could. lol

wake me up when he gets his ring. He was 1 lucky shot away from being swept by an average Magic team, who Kobe and crew demolished.


the Lebron does not have any players argument is over. They have had the best record in the NBA the last 2 seasons. The surrounding players are fine.

if kobe made that shot, it's because he's skilled...but when lebron makes that shot, it's luck. does.not.compute.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 06:55 PM
uhhhh fine, skill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB94VIlrvfI


keep in mind i hate Kobe! I just hate this liberal media all over bron brons penis.

yankee
3/27/2010, 06:59 PM
uhhhh fine, skill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB94VIlrvfI


keep in mind i hate Kobe! I just hate this liberal media all over bron brons penis.

the media rode MJ's dick for over a decade. it's the world we live in, and since lebron is the best player in the NBA, you should get used to it. ;)

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 07:00 PM
MJ had a hand full of rings, and 1 to go on the other hand. Who got the fame, when MJ was not winning titles? Magic and Bird, b/c they were winning titles.

Lebron does not win titles, he is a great player with great stats who has yet to win the big one, yet.

yankee
3/27/2010, 07:05 PM
Lebron does not win titles,

/facepalm.

since when is basketball a one man sport? could have sworn their were 4 more teammates...

title justification does not only reflect an individual player, it reflects the surrounding starter players, the depth on the bench, the coaching staff, and the front office. dan marino is one of the best QB's of all time...and how many super bowl rings did he have?

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 07:06 PM
his team won like 66 games last year THAT IS ONLY 4 LESS THAN THE BULLS 70 WIN REGULAR SEASON, and the cavs rested their starters the last game and lost by a 1 point, and they are the "best" team in the nba right now.

it just seems when they are winning, the cavs are the best.. but when they lose, Lebron has nobody!

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 07:09 PM
football is different than basketball. way different. in basketball you can single handily control both sides of the floor in just a matter of seconds. u can win games by yourself

Rings are the thing in Basketball. Any great will say that. Like Magic Johnson always says, "there is MJ, then the rest of us"

Rings define greatness in the NBA. that's a 100% fact

yankee
3/27/2010, 07:12 PM
his team won like 66 games last year THAT IS ONLY 4 LESS THAN THE BULLS 70 WIN REGULAR SEASON, and the cavs rested their starters the last game and lost by a 1 point, and they are the "best" team in the nba right now.

it just seems when they are winning, the cavs are the best.. but when they lose, Lebron has nobody!

didn't say that lebron has nobody, all i said are the things it takes to win a ring.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 07:13 PM
ok so right now, does Lebron have the "things" to win a ring? did he last year? just seems like the guy always get an excuse

Eielson
3/27/2010, 07:17 PM
How many superstars played with MJ?

MJ had good teammates. Pippen was a superstar, and there were plenty of good players around him, as well as one of the all-time great coaches. If it weren't for Pippen, MJ's number of championships probably would've been closer to 0 than 6.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 07:20 PM
impossible to tell how many without Pippen... all i know is, it is what it is. and i hate that saying

Eielson
3/27/2010, 07:35 PM
Here is a little history for you that nobody seems to mention. Before the 1994-1995 season, Michael Jordan retires. Despite not having Jordan, Pippen lead the Bulls to a 55 win season...only two less than the year before. Michael Jordan only has the effect of two wins?! They may have even won the championship without him if it weren't for a controversial call in the Knicks series that they lost in 7 games.

It makes me sometimes question if Pippen was more important for those championships than Jordan.

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 07:51 PM
Pippen was a fantastic player

MJ was just the best ever tho. and the best finisher.

the east had their chance when MJ was out. even tho the 1994-1995 season, MJ came back and lost in the semi-finals.


HTOWN BABY!

Collier11
3/27/2010, 08:39 PM
his team won like 66 games last year THAT IS ONLY 4 LESS THAN THE BULLS 70 WIN REGULAR SEASON, and the cavs rested their starters the last game and lost by a 1 point, and they are the "best" team in the nba right now.

it just seems when they are winning, the cavs are the best.. but when they lose, Lebron has nobody!

I dont think anyone has used the "Lebron has nobody" argument in 3 or 4 years

Collier11
3/27/2010, 08:42 PM
ok so right now, does Lebron have the "things" to win a ring? did he last year? just seems like the guy always get an excuse

Jlew, cmon now, you understand that in sports its all about matchups. Why you think some of these big dogs in the ncaa tourney are getting knocked out. Last year the Cavs had no one that could defend Dwight and they were dominated because of it. Why you think this year they brought in Shaq and brought back The Big Z


MJ had good teammates. Pippen was a superstar, and there were plenty of good players around him, as well as one of the all-time great coaches. If it weren't for Pippen, MJ's number of championships probably would've been closer to 0 than 6.

Pippen was not a Top 50 all time without having MJ on his side...he was a really good player, but not great

Eielson
3/27/2010, 11:04 PM
I dont think anyone has used the "Lebron has nobody" argument in 3 or 4 years

I'm pretty sure It's been used a million times in that time frame. I think we even have posts that could be looked up from last year that used that excuse.

Collier11
3/27/2010, 11:09 PM
maybe in reference to him not having a low post defender to stop Dwight but Lebron has had good players around him the last several yrs

Eielson
3/27/2010, 11:26 PM
Pippen was not a Top 50 all time without having MJ on his side...he was a really good player, but not great

Pippen was a 20 point, 8 rebound, 5 assist guy without Jordan (and pretty much the same with him). Those stats don't even take into consideration that he was the best defensive player in the league. I don't know how anybody can consider that "not great".

Collier11
3/27/2010, 11:33 PM
He was great for the situation he was in, im not saying he wasnt really good but I dont think ppl would look at him as a great player had he not played with MJ, just a really good one. 16, 6, and 5 are not legend type numbers unless you are already playing with a legend. I do think MJ needed him though

Eielson
3/27/2010, 11:49 PM
He was great for the situation he was in

What situation would Pippen not be great in? I think every team could use somebody who can score, get rebounds, pass, and play defense.


16, 6, and 5 are not legend type numbers unless you are already playing with a legend.

You took his third season in the NBA, rounded it down, and considered that his normal season? Those numbers you listed would be his 10th best season on those three stats.

The seasons without Jordan:

93-94: 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 2.9 steals
94-95: 21.4 points, 8.1 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 2.9 steals*

*league leader

JLEW1818
3/27/2010, 11:51 PM
don't get me wrong D. Howard was dominant in the ECW last year. But the Cavs honestly had no answer for R. Lewis or Turk

The cavs coach is garbage. He made zero adjustments. I will somwhat take Lebron's side on that.

Eielson
3/28/2010, 12:00 AM
lol please excuse my behavior last night. I was a little bit under the influence..

However about Lebron,

In my opinion after he made that shot last night, he now is 100% in the level of MJ and Kobe. Lebron has now arrived. And i don't think he is leaving. Only thing to hold Lebron back is injury.

This is a great postseason. all 4 games so far have been 3 points or less .

Lebron may not win it this year, but he needs a Pippen or something. Or the dude is gonna kill him self out there.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

JLEW1818
3/28/2010, 12:08 AM
lol, that was a "free give'me, so c11 and the media wouldn't cry!"


i was forced! F bron bron, he has what he needs. but he is a tool

Collier11
3/28/2010, 12:14 AM
What situation would Pippen not be great in? I think every team could use somebody who can score, get rebounds, pass, and play defense.

Pipp coulda helped alot of teams, he was really really good.

You took his third season in the NBA, rounded it down, and considered that his normal season? Those numbers you listed would be his 10th best season on those three stats.

The seasons without Jordan:

93-94: 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 2.9 steals
94-95: 21.4 points, 8.1 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 2.9 steals*

*league leader

not sure what youre talking about, those are his career numbers I posted

Eielson
3/28/2010, 12:20 AM
not sure what youre talking about, those are his career numbers I posted

Your career numbers tend to go down when you play until you're 38. It's common to judge somebody's greatness by what they did in and around their prime rather than when they're slobbering on themselves.

Collier11
3/28/2010, 12:24 AM
remember Pippen taking himself out of a playoff game cus he didnt get the last shot, bet he wishes he could have that moment back

Eielson
3/28/2010, 12:26 AM
remember Pippen taking himself out of a playoff game cus he didnt get the last shot, bet he wishes he could have that moment back

That incident wouldn't even matter if he wasn't a great player.

Collier11
3/28/2010, 12:28 AM
well it mattered cus at that point in his career it was supposed to be HIS team and that is the way he acted in a critical situation

Eielson
3/28/2010, 12:33 AM
well it mattered cus at that point in his career it was supposed to be HIS team and that is the way he acted in a critical situation

I still don't see how this one incident makes him not a great player. You're really struggling if that's your only argument.

Collier11
3/28/2010, 12:43 AM
that has nothing to do with my argument, I just brought it up cus I just read something about it on wiki while looking up his career stats and I had forgotten about it

Listen, its really not a big deal. My opinion is that he was a really good player who was made alot better cus of Jordan. You think 20 and 8 without Jordan proves even more that he was great, I dont agree, oh well

JLEW1818
3/28/2010, 11:00 AM
Bron bron is great. Till he wins a ring I'm a hater!!

Curly Bill
3/28/2010, 11:13 AM
I think the truth prolly lies somewhere between jlew's stance and some of you other guys.

...just sayin

JLEW1818
3/28/2010, 11:16 AM
Congrats on the N peace prize!

Curly Bill
3/28/2010, 11:24 AM
Congrats on the N peace prize!

Thanks, I gotta start working to ensure I earn that thing by 2015. :D

JLEW1818
3/30/2010, 09:26 PM
Dear ESPN article guy comparing MJ and Lebron ....People need to stop comparisons with great players until their careers are done. Jordans not great because of single season accomplishments but dominance over the span of time, and Lebron has to build a career of dominance before any comparisons can be made. But i am interested in seeing how Lebron adjusts his game when his athleticism starts to diminish.

Scott D
3/30/2010, 10:16 PM
Dear jlew...who was greater, Mike Scott or JR Richard.

Sincerely,
Roy Oswalt

Collier11
3/30/2010, 10:53 PM
Dear ESPN article guy comparing MJ and Lebron ....People need to stop comparisons with great players until their careers are done. Jordans not great because of single season accomplishments but dominance over the span of time, and Lebron has to build a career of dominance before any comparisons can be made. But i am interested in seeing how Lebron adjusts his game when his athleticism starts to diminish.

why do you need to wait til their careers are done, it is obvious already that Lebron is one of the greatest ever. They compare Pujols with the greatest hitters of all time and you know why, he is, even though he isnt retired yet...thats possible

Scott D
3/30/2010, 10:57 PM
Albert Pujols is no Duke Snider

Sincerely,
Everyone not blinded by all things St. Louis.

Collier11
3/30/2010, 11:08 PM
Pujols has a top 5 start to his career, all time!

Sincerely,

Common Sense

PS

I knew youd respond :D

Scott D
3/30/2010, 11:11 PM
he's still no Duke Snider. :)

Collier11
3/30/2010, 11:12 PM
Just to humor you

Pujols- 8 all star selections in 9 years

Snider- 8 all star selections in 16 years

Pujols- Career 334. hitter, 366 hrs, 1112 rbi's

Snider- Career 295. hitter, 407 hrs, 1333 rbi's

Pujols- 3 MVPs

Snider-0

ScottD- Fail
C11- Domination

;)

Scott D
3/30/2010, 11:13 PM
so long as we remember

Baseball now - watered down
Baseball then - not as watered down

I win.

Collier11
3/30/2010, 11:31 PM
says who?

Sooner04
3/30/2010, 11:36 PM
says who?
Everybody.

And Scott, my answer if it's 1986 is Mike Scott. If it's for the duration of the career then it's J. R. Richard.

Collier11
3/30/2010, 11:38 PM
just like in basketball, there are lot of the good ones who couldnt survive in todays game, there are some that transcend the era differences but alot wouldnt

Scott D
3/31/2010, 06:58 AM
just like in basketball, there are lot of the good ones who couldnt survive in todays game, there are some that transcend the era differences but alot wouldnt

hah, 60% of rosters today would be in Triple A at best.

Collier11
3/31/2010, 11:12 AM
60% is ridiculous, also id say that there are more GREAT players today then back then

Eielson
3/31/2010, 03:35 PM
If Lebron had a career ending injury today...he wouldn't be one of the all-time greats.

Scott D
3/31/2010, 06:13 PM
60% is ridiculous, also id say that there are more GREAT players today then back then

there would be just over half the teams. so 60% isn't ridiculous.

Collier11
3/31/2010, 06:27 PM
and the game was completely different, no way to compare

JLEW1818
3/31/2010, 06:53 PM
BS

Basketball and Baseball are 2 completely different things when comparing Legacy and greatness. In baseball Albert cant single handily dominate a game. He can't hit when its not his turn. He cant catch a ball when its not his turn. In basketball you can single handily control the ball.

The NBA is about rings. Just ask Magic Johnson.... Similar talents, then compare rings.

oh and the newest Lebron lover "Billl Simmons" thinks this. and i agree 100%

from his book

I know LeBron James is fantastic right now, but if he's still winning championship BY HIMSELF at thirty-six on the fourth version of himself (MJ), we can start talking about him and Jordan. And only then."

Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
pg. 612

case closed


Lebron James will probably be retired at age 36, or no longer a factor

Collier11
3/31/2010, 06:57 PM
Jordan had pippen, Kobe had Shaq and then Gasol...no player wins a title by themselves no matter how good they are...some require superstars, some really really good role players, either way they aint doin it by themselves

JLEW1818
3/31/2010, 07:02 PM
MJ finished them by himself, for the most part

when is the last time Lebron stole a ball from the 2nd leading scorer in nba history, dribbled down the court, and hit the nba finals game clincher, to win his 6th NBA finals

until Lebron accomplishes anything like that, he is not MJ level

cool for lebron and his great athleticism and his stats. MJ had all that too. thats just 80% of it. Until he is a GREAT NBA Finals player, he is nowhere near MJ.

Collier11
3/31/2010, 07:06 PM
MJ finished them by himself, for the most part

John Paxson anyone?

when is the last time Lebron stole a ball from the 2nd leading scorer in nba history, dribbled down the court, and hit the nba finals game clincher, to win his 6th NBA finals

you left out the part where he should have been called for an offensive foul

until Lebron accomplishes anything like that, he is not MJ level

Lebron needs to win some rings, I dont mean he is MJ level yet but the year Lebron led his team to the finals he carried that team. Luckily for him the front office has bolstered the roster recently

cool for lebron and his great athleticism and his stats. MJ had all that too. thats just 80% of it. Until he is a GREAT NBA Finals player, he is nowhere near MJ.

I dont think I implied that he was MJ, just that he is a great player...probably the best in the NBA right now and will be for a while

JLEW1818
3/31/2010, 07:08 PM
should have been fouled... ha

see back then, they didn't call fouls every time somebody coughed for sneezed on somebody like the do today. way more physical back then. should have been called a foul, if there was such thing as instant reply to determine fouls.

I'd love to see how many charging fouls Lebron would get if the refs were not biased

JLEW1818
3/31/2010, 07:09 PM
John Paxson

great shot in game 6 to win it.

how bout the other 5 rings? lets take away that one from MJ


and i said "for the most part"



Lebron = zero final wins. lol

Collier11
3/31/2010, 07:10 PM
should have been fouled... ha

see back then, they didn't call fouls every time somebody coughed for sneezed on somebody like the do today. way more physical back then. should have been called a foul, if there was such thing as instant reply to determine fouls.

I'd love to see how many charging fouls Lebron would get if the refs were not biased

that MJ push off on Russell was the most obvious offensive foul in history but it didnt get called cus he is MJ.

JLEW1818
3/31/2010, 07:12 PM
looked like a slip to me

he hardly touched him


if one hand push made Russell fall down like that, maybe that is why the Jazz could never win it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUwDIn7TL_Y

4 minute mark

Collier11
3/31/2010, 07:14 PM
spin, spin, spinner...anyway, your stros suck :D

JLEW1818
3/31/2010, 07:15 PM
we couldn't win it all with Clemens and Andy and Roy

we are a long way off

yankee
3/31/2010, 11:26 PM
should have been fouled... ha

see back then, they didn't call fouls every time somebody coughed for sneezed on somebody like the do today. way more physical back then. should have been called a foul, if there was such thing as instant reply to determine fouls.

I'd love to see how many charging fouls Lebron would get if the refs were not biased

NEWSFLASH: biased refs were part of the game long before lebron came into the league. and yes jlew, that even means when jordan was during his prime.

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 12:16 PM
U don't call that in game 6 of the NBA finals, it's a debatable call anway. He slipped also. Let's take that one away from mj too, as well as the other talked about.

Still at 4 rings, more than lebron will ever get, as the star of his team.

Win or lose the ring this year, the media already has an excuse for lebron.

Until lebron is a great postseason player he can't be one of the greatest players ever. That is just a fact. Great postseason stars have rings.

Again don't bring up Horry or something like that. He is not an elite player.

Why is Tim Duncan the greatest powerforward ever? Over Malone who has the second most points in NBA history????! RINGS

Collier11
4/1/2010, 12:25 PM
see I dont buy that, a foul is a foul and that foul is not debatable, it is quite obvious...he slipped cus when he was stopping with MJ, MJ pushed his a**

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 12:29 PM
I give lebron and the NBA Permission to not call fouls on lebron. Now let's see how long it is before he is even in a situation where a title is on the line. Ha

Collier11
4/1/2010, 12:37 PM
he has already been, your hate for Lebron doesnt allow you to see clearly J. You cant deny what he has accomplished at such a young age and like I said before, MJ didnt win his first title til year 7 so give him some time

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 01:03 PM
The knees won't last!!!

As far as legacy he has nothing. But yes his stats and play are sick.

Time will tell

Collier11
4/1/2010, 01:25 PM
so are you saying Malone and Stockton dont have a legacy since they didnt win rings?

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 01:43 PM
Not one like mj magic bird Kobe shaq Hakeem wilt Russell Duncan O

Collier11
4/1/2010, 01:45 PM
you just listed 10 of the greatest ballers of all time, regardless of rings.

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 03:24 PM
Funny how they all have them!

Collier11
4/1/2010, 03:36 PM
there are plenty of great ones who dont have a ring, your point in invalid

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 04:02 PM
Not invalid at all. You can't be top 10 without a ring. 100% impossible.

Collier11
4/1/2010, 04:09 PM
not 100% impossible at all

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 04:14 PM
Name me one...

Name me any player without a ring and I will tell u a better player at that position.

Collier11
4/1/2010, 04:17 PM
of course you will, its your opinion...You tellin me Marino isnt one of the top 10 QBs of all time?

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 04:22 PM
Differnt sport. It really does change the entire thing .

Dan Marino can't play defense ....

Collier11
4/1/2010, 04:23 PM
well many would argue that Malone is the greatest PF of all time if you want to keep it in hoops...as far as a complete basketball player I dont know that id disagree

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 04:25 PM
My "theory" only applies in the NBA

Remember my Brady Manning thread? The reason i gave the edge to Brady is b/c of his postseason stats. 2 guys elite, similar stats/talent.

I've just never seen a credible source with Malone over Duncan.

4 rings, zero rings

Malone also had THE PG with the most steals and assists in nba history.

Collier11
4/1/2010, 04:30 PM
Im a "ring" guy as well but I dont think you can say that if you dont have a ring you arent one of the greatest ever, doesnt make sense

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 04:32 PM
can be one of the greatest, just not better than a lot of the similar greats with rings.

John Stockton has the most steals and assists in nba history. why is he not the best PG ever?

Collier11
4/1/2010, 04:34 PM
well compared to others he wasnt as good, you ever think he had so many assists cus he had a Great player and a really good player playing with him? Hell, when healthy I think CP3 is better than Stockton

JLEW1818
4/1/2010, 04:39 PM
short shorts

Eielson
4/1/2010, 10:59 PM
The ring theory is so ridiculously flawed that it isn't even funny.

Eielson
4/1/2010, 11:32 PM
Example Showing Flaw #1:

Kobe plays with Shaq...wins championships.

Kobe plays without Shaq...wins nothing. I don't even think he won a playoff series, and he missed the playoffs once or twice.

Kobe plays with Pau...nearly wins it all first season, wins it all second season, great chance to win it all third season.

What if all we saw out of Kobe were the in-between years? Would that make him any less of a player? No, he'd be the exact same player. He'd have just been in a different situation. The funny thing is, those years where he wasn't winning anything were his prime. Great players only have about 10 years of playing at a high level, and even those ten aren't all their prime. That's a very small amount of time to look at. If we were looking at 25 or so years, it would be different. He'd play on several different teams, and have several different scenarios. However, it's not like that, and so this ring theory just doesn't really work.

Imagine if you had to play against Auerbach's Celtics your whole career? If you want a more modern example, imagine having to go against Pippen and MJ for the prime of your career. You're 25, in your prime, ready for a title run, and then you run into the Bulls. Eight years later you're 33 and on your way out. It doesn't even have to be that long of a run. KG was a great player and won one eventually (not that going to a team that sold it's future made him any better), but he only had a couple seasons where he had the talent to even think of winning a championship. They did great, but then ran into a Lakers team that even your boy Tim Duncan couldn't beat. Most dreadfully of the group, imagine if you spent the first five years with a team like the Clippers. There are a lot more scenarios, but I hope you get the picture.

JLEW1818
4/2/2010, 09:17 AM
what if i was a longhorn fan? IF

He has the rings. The same argument could be made the other way.

Kobe had Shaq, Malone, and Payton. and did not win a ring. so none of those guys must have been that good right?

again give me any player without a ring, and i will tell u at least 1 player better at that position who is better.

Sooner04
4/2/2010, 09:46 AM
again give me any player without a ring, and i will tell u at least 1 player better at that position who is better.
Karl Malone

sidenote: better at that position who was better? Is that like the old commercial where they said, "my better is better than your better"?

JLEW1818
4/2/2010, 10:06 AM
Tim Duncan over Malone, anyday

why didn't the jazz win when MJ was out ?

I've heard Barkley and Simmons both say that.

Sooner04
4/2/2010, 10:32 AM
Tim Duncan over Malone, anyday

why didn't the jazz win when MJ was out ?

I've heard Barkley and Simmons both say that.
I'd take Malone.

As for the other comments, shrug, I guess. If they'd lost to some scrubs I might be inclined to agree with you. But their playoff demises came against stout teams.

'94 - Houston Rockets: NBA Champs
'95 - Houston Rockets: NBA Champs
'96 - Seattle Supersonics: NBA Western Conference Champions (64-18 record)
'97 - Chicago Bulls: NBA Champs
'98 - Chicago Bulls: NBA Champs

And if you look back you'll notice that the Jazz gave the Bulls their two toughest runs of the six championships. '97 was an especially good series with the Flu Game and Jordan hitting a shot at the buzzer to win Game 1.

JLEW1818
4/2/2010, 11:45 AM
basically, my final thought. MJ is/was in a league of his own.

My Rockets took advantage when MJ was out. still waiting on another ring tho. :D

yankee
4/2/2010, 01:27 PM
Kobe had Shaq, Malone, and Payton.



malone and payton weren't even close to their prime.

JLEW1818
4/2/2010, 02:19 PM
somehow its an excuse for bron bron tho right?

Collier11
4/2/2010, 02:45 PM
whats an excuse for Lebron? He is 25, been to the finals once and has atleast 7-8 years left before he starts declining, maybe more

JLEW1818
4/2/2010, 04:15 PM
i say 5 more before he starts!

Magic win the east this year, yet again

Collier11
4/2/2010, 04:21 PM
He will be in his prime til atleast 32-34

yankee
4/2/2010, 07:39 PM
somehow its an excuse for bron bron tho right?

what are you talking about?

Collier11
4/2/2010, 07:43 PM
Jlew doesnt know, he has a hatred for Lebron that cant be explained and his arguments against Lebron being a great player are delusional...sorry buddy :D

yankee
4/2/2010, 07:59 PM
i think he's drunk...

Collier11
4/2/2010, 08:00 PM
Jlew is always drunk

Scott D
4/2/2010, 08:34 PM
jlew still thinks the Astros played in the World Series in both 04 and 06.

Eielson
4/2/2010, 08:45 PM
again give me any player without a ring, and i will tell u at least 1 player better at that position who is better.

Wow, one player. That adds up to five. Malone drops it to four, though.

Regardless, most of those same players were also black. Can we keep Larry Bird off of great player lists because he was white? You name a white player and I'll name a better one who is black.

(Note: You got Malone, so I get Bird)

Collier11
4/2/2010, 08:50 PM
based on your argument Jlew, is Horry one of the greatest of all time. I fully agree that rings make a difference but how much I dont know. Im with STEP, I think Magic is the greatest ever and he has 4 if I remember correctly. Look at all the rings Russell has, wouldnt he be best ever in your book?

Itd be one thing if Lebron was averaging 30 a game and getting nowhere in the playoffs or not even making the playoffs but it is obvious that Cleveland smoked pole before he showed up and are one of the top 3 teams in the league since he came around

yankee
4/3/2010, 12:22 AM
toni kukoc>>>> lebron james.





why, you ask yourself? because he has more rings than lebron james of course!

JLEW1818
4/3/2010, 09:59 AM
how many times must i repeat myself? seriously.......

Robert Horry is not an ELITE player. He was never the best player on his team. NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER.

I'm talking Elite players, similar talents, similar stats. That clearly rules out Horry.

Now we got 3 guys with similar talent. MJ, Kobe, Lebron.

whats missing between those 3? 1 guy has 6 rings, the other has 4, and the other has ZERO

And its not a matter of how many rings you have. That Celtic team was stacked. Once you win "Rings" you are in the conversation, if your the best player on your team.

I still take Wilt over Russell. The both have rings, both top players of all time. In my opinion i think Wilt was better.

JLEW1818
4/3/2010, 10:02 AM
Wow, one player. That adds up to five. Malone drops it to four, though.

Regardless, most of those same players were also black. Can we keep Larry Bird off of great player lists because he was white? You name a white player and I'll name a better one who is black.

(Note: You got Malone, so I get Bird)

A lot of people will take Barkely over Karl Malone.

and idk what your talking about with this "black" stuff.......... wtf?

Bird is in my top 6 list.

JLEW1818
4/3/2010, 10:03 AM
based on your argument Jlew, is Horry one of the greatest of all time. I fully agree that rings make a difference but how much I dont know. Im with STEP, I think Magic is the greatest ever and he has 4 if I remember correctly. Look at all the rings Russell has, wouldnt he be best ever in your book?

Itd be one thing if Lebron was averaging 30 a game and getting nowhere in the playoffs or not even making the playoffs but it is obvious that Cleveland smoked pole before he showed up and are one of the top 3 teams in the league since he came around

did you see the Magic tear Cleveland up in the playoffs? Then look what the Lakers did to them, lol.

The cavs are def not a playoff team. The Magic are absolutely loaded for the playoffs. In my opinion

Scott D
4/3/2010, 12:18 PM
I'll take Willis Reed or Bill Russell at PF over Malone.

JLEW1818
4/3/2010, 12:20 PM
here is my team

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
C: Wilt Chamberlain

yall take yalls 5 now

Curly Bill
4/3/2010, 12:58 PM
PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Wilt Chamberlain

JLEW1818
4/3/2010, 02:03 PM
salty!

i moved Kareem to PF, is that legal?