Lebron is f'ing unbelievable...

[Scott D]

why not, Tim Duncan hasn't been a PF but you continue to call him one.

[JLEW1818]

PF/C

so they claim

all started when he played with Robinson.

[yankee]

how many times must i repeat myself? seriously.......

Robert Horry is not an ELITE player. He was never the best player on his team. NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER.

I'm talking Elite players, similar talents, similar stats. That clearly rules out Horry.

Now we got 3 guys with similar talent. MJ, Kobe, Lebron.

whats missing between those 3? 1 guy has 6 rings, the other has 4, and the other has ZERO

And its not a matter of how many rings you have. That Celtic team was stacked. Once you win "Rings" you are in the conversation, if your the best player on your team.

I still take Wilt over Russell. The both have rings, both top players of all time. In my opinion i think Wilt was better.

so according to you, if those three all have similar talent, why are you not even considering lebron as possibly being one of the best ever? it sounds like you're letting some hatred cloud your judgement. (i think that's what the original argument is about...it appears this thread has become pretty diluted).

[Collier11]

willis reed, really?

[JLEW1818]

so according to you, if those three all have similar talent, why are you not even considering lebron as possibly being one of the best ever? it sounds like you're letting some hatred cloud your judgement. (i think that's what the original argument is about...it appears this thread has become pretty diluted).

BECAUSE HE HAS NOT ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING BUT INDIVIDUAL STATS.

NBA Greatness (being the best) is about more than just stats, it about rings and leading your team.

He has not won anything. Those three do have similar talent. Now what do 2 of them have, that 1 does not have.

If the Cavs win the NBA Finals this year does my opinion change? Absolutely. He now has legacy, and accomplishment. Still not MJ or Kobe, but on his way for sure.

[Collier11]

Again, you cant say he hasnt accomplished anything or you are saying Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc... havent accomplished anything, that is a blind statement.

He is 25, has been to the Finals once already, the conf finals twice, has an MVP, about to win his 2nd. Several all nba teams made, all star appearances, etc...he has accomplished more at the age of 25 than most NBA players do.

[Collier11]

So has Dirk accomplished anything? He has been in the league longer than Lebron, hasnt won a ring, probably considered the greatest European player in NBA history, he hasnt accomplished anything? You are being foolish J

[JLEW1818]

Barkley, Malone, and Ewing had great careers.

Lebron does not have a career yet. Lets see if he can do this for 10 more years.

[Collier11]

He has played what, 7 years already...he has had a great career already

[JLEW1818]

So has Dirk accomplished anything? He has been in the league longer than Lebron, hasnt won a ring, probably considered the greatest European player in NBA history, he hasnt accomplished anything? You are being foolish J

he is not a top 20 player of all time. I will say that. I guess he has accomplished a Western Conference Final... if that's what you want to say.

[JLEW1818]

He has played what, 7 years already...he has had a great career already

so if he breaks his neck tonight and never plays again, he is one of the best ever?

[Scott D]

willis reed, really?

Willis had mad game....he gave Wilt problems constantly.

[JLEW1818]

eventually Lebron is going to win a championship, or more. and my argument is going to be over. but for the time being. I hate him. He should have left as a jr in high school... .stupid nba rules. guess who had the first pick in 2002? if Lebron could have left early.... :(

[Collier11]

so if he breaks his neck tonight and never plays again, he is one of the best ever?

Yea id say so, when someones career is cut short you look at what they did while in the league and he has done a lot


Willis had mad game....he gave Wilt problems constantly.

I guess he was on the 50 greatest team, I didnt realize that

[Collier11]

eventually Lebron is going to win a championship, or more. and my argument is going to be over. but for the time being. I hate him. He should have left as a jr in high school... .stupid nba rules. guess who had the first pick in 2002? if Lebron could have left early.... :(

so it comes out :D

[Scott D]

that's because you're young...and dumb ;)

not as dumb as houston boy there though ;)

[JLEW1818]

whats ur number list on "best ever" like is that a top 50 ever? top 25? top 10?

right now I have Lebron at the 28ish mark

[JLEW1818]

Roy O vs Timmy monday night!!!!

[Collier11]

If Lebrons career plays out consistent with his last several yrs for 5 or 6 more atleast, id say he is top 15 and possibly higher

Where do you have Kobe, id say top 8-15

[JLEW1818]

yah 8-15ish

well another good question is.

Shaq or Kobe? Kobe has probably been more consistent over his career. But when Shaq was in his prime prime, he was probably the most dominant player i ever watched.

[Collier11]

To me, Shaq was the 1st or 2nd most dominant Nba player ever in his prime. Id say he is top 5-10 as far as overall career, Wilt is probably above him. If Cleveland wins it this year Shaq will have 5 rings

[JLEW1818]

whats scary is Cleveland wins without shaq.... yikes


can you see it now?

Lakers vs Cavs NBA finals?

Kobe vs Lebron and Shaq!!!!!

i guarantee it would break record ratings

[Scott D]

Shaq never had a center that could go toe to toe with him during his career. Wilt had at least 3 other top flight centers in the league during his career. More like 6 or 7 if you include Walton and Unseld.

[Scott D]

and jlew hates Lebron so much because he feels that Greg Kite never got his proper due.

[JLEW1818]

Hakeem swept his ***!!!!!!!

[JLEW1818]

Mike Scott baby

[Scott D]

no, the Rockets beat a 1.5 player team...top to bottom the Rockets roster was far better than the Magic roster.

Christ, was there a more overrated player in the mid 90s than broken down often injured Anfernee Hardaway?

[Collier11]

who are the Top 10 current players

Id go like this...

1: Bron
2: Kobe
3: Dwayde
4: Dirk
5: Dwight
6: Durant
7: Amare
8: Melo
9:CP3
10: Roy

[JLEW1818]

no, the Rockets beat a 1.5 player team...top to bottom the Rockets roster was far better than the Magic roster.

Christ, was there a more overrated player in the mid 90s than broken down often injured Anfernee Hardaway?

i bet u had his jersey

[Collier11]

Penny was top 10 in the league for about 3-4 years

[JLEW1818]

until the grant hill and tmac surgery

hardly any are the same after it

[JLEW1818]

who are the Top 10 current players

Id go like this...

1: Bron
2: Kobe
3: Dwayde
4: Dirk
5: Dwight
6: Durant
7: Amare
8: Melo
9:CP3
10: Roy


yah I'd say the top 3 should be unanimously in that order. If talking the best right now.

the rest look fine. I'd say Bosh is coming up the ladder

[Collier11]

yea, there are a cpl that could be in there

[Scott D]

i bet u had his jersey

hell no fool. I STILL have my 3 Larry Johnson Charlotte Hornets jerseys.

[Collier11]

grandmama!

[Scott D]

now if I only still had his mad converse shoes...them ****ers were comfortable as hell.

[JLEW1818]

Bill Simmons updated top 50 players of all time


(updated as of 12/16/09)
50.Dolph Schayes
49.Elvin Hayes
48.James Worthy
47.Billy Cunningham
46.Hal Greer
45.Dave Debusschere
44.Nate Thurmond
43.Clyde Drexler
42.Jason Kidd
41.Wes Unseld
40.Gary Payton
39.Patrick Ewing
38.Dirk Nowitzki
37.George Mikan
36.Steve Nash
35.Kevin McHale
34.George Gervin
33.Sam Jones
32.Allen Iverson
31.Walt Frazier
30.Dave Cowens
29.Willis Reed
28.David Robinson
27.Bill Walton
26.Rick Barry
25.John Stockton
24.Scottie Pippen
23.Isiah Thomas
22.Kevin Garnett
21.Bob Cousy
20.LeBron James
19.Charles Barkley
18.Karl Malone
17.Bob Pettit
16.Julius Erving
15.Elgin Baylor
14.John Havlicek
13.Shaquille O'Neal
12.Moses Malone
11.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Oscar Robertson
9.Kobe Bryant
8.Jerry West
7.Tim Duncan
6.Wilt Chamberlain
5.Larry Bird
4.Magic Johnson
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2.Bill Russell
1.Michael Jordan

[Collier11]

David Robinson and Garnett too low, Stockton and Pippen way too high

[JLEW1818]

as far as his comment, for having Lebron at 20 is b/c 10 years from now, when somebody opens this book, Lebron will be a top 20 player.

[Scott D]

lol...

I'll let that list slide because he left off some top players who had injury issues during their careers.

[Curly Bill]

Pippen way too high, and why is James Worthy in there at all?

[Curly Bill]

...and Wilt should be #1

[JLEW1818]

did u know MJ is number 2 all time in steals?

i honest to god didn't know that

[Scott D]

Bob Pettit should be #2 for having the two biggest feets in basketball.

[JLEW1818]

u overcooking my grits coach

[Eielson]

I'll take Willis Reed or Bill Russell at PF over Malone.

They're centers, though.

[Eielson]

Garnett too low

Who would you move him above?

Pippen deserves to be high. He's as important as MJ in those 6 championships.

[Eielson]

well another good question is.

Shaq or Kobe? Kobe has probably been more consistent over his career. But when Shaq was in his prime prime, he was probably the most dominant player i ever watched.

Bad question. Shaq and it's not even close. I don't understand the consistency really. Shaq went to the Championships with Penny, won three with Kobe, and won one with Wade. He's been a winner his whole career, and his stats were also always there.

[Collier11]

Id move him above Barkley, id move him above Bron at this point his career...maybe a few more

[Curly Bill]

Pippen deserves to be high. He's as important as MJ in those 6 championships.

LOL, yeah OK. :O :rolleyes:

[JLEW1818]

Eielson is a butt hurt Lakers fan who won't give Michael Jordan his respect. :D


now yall better watch out, Skull should be in here soon, to teach all of us :D

[Scott D]

They're centers, though.

Reed played roughly half his career as a PF because the Knicks drafted a 7 footer at center before dealing that guy to the Pistons for Dave DeBuscherre which allowed Reed to go back to being a center.

[JLEW1818]

Lebron 0-9 at the 3 line... :D

2 for 4 on his last 4 free throws


Le'Brick

[Eielson]

LOL, yeah OK. :O :rolleyes:

You do realize that the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls won 55 games, right? That's only two less than the season before. He wasn't as good on offense, but Pippen ran that defense, and was a better rebounder.

[JLEW1818]

you do realize they didn't win the title when MJ was out? hmmm wonder why..



wow dude, this is almost on the level of Chase Daniel being a better qb than Tebow?

I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that Pippen was just as important as MJ

[Eielson]

Reed played roughly half his career as a PF because the Knicks drafted a 7 footer at center before dealing that guy to the Pistons for Dave DeBuscherre which allowed Reed to go back to being a center.

Well, I think he's generally looked at as a center. The people considered centers are so much better than the people considered power forwards, and I think that's why you have power forwards on the All-time teams that have no business there. As far as I'm concerned, they're all posts, and all the great ones could play either position.

[JLEW1818]

MJ is second all time in steals, he sucks on D compared to Pippen ... ha

[Scott D]

Well, I think he's generally looked at as a center. The people considered centers are so much better than the people considered power forwards, and I think that's why you have power forwards on the All-time teams that have no business there. As far as I'm concerned, they're all posts, and all the great ones could play either position.

and that's why in today's game both Reed and Russell would be power forwards.

[Eielson]

you do realize they didn't win the title when MJ was out? hmmm wonder why..

They lost their playoff series because of what many consider one of the worst calls in NBA history. They could've ended up winning it all even without MJ. It doesn't really matter, though. I never said that the Bulls would've won six championships without Jordan. Obviously they were a better team when he was playing. I'm just saying that they couldn't have done it without Pippen either.

[Eielson]

MJ is second all time in steals, he sucks on D compared to Pippen ... ha

I never said that Jordan sucked on D. Start reading what I actually write.

[JLEW1818]

so is Tim Duncan a power forward or center?

[Scott D]

That depends on your definition of what the useless other forward is.

[JLEW1818]

well i guess it all started with David Robinson. He was their "center" Duncan was their power forward. i guess it stuck

[Scott D]

it started that way, then Duncan at some point during Robinson's decline became the center and Robinson the forward.

[JLEW1818]

u watching Lakers Spurs right now?

[Scott D]

I wouldn't watch Lakers/Spurs if it was the only thing on Television.

I'm watching an Iron Maiden concert.

[yankee]

jlew needs to read this...;)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Karl-Malone-and-Scottie-Pippen-are-Hall-of-Famer;_ylt=ArQDbgofnHcXRsDCdqOf6gU5nYcB?urn=nba,23 2379


Malone's the best power forward to play the game.


Karl Malone? He may have scored all those points, but it was really Stockton heading the show, bringing Jerry Sloan's vision to life. Karl was just the recipient of all those passes. The guy that's into chicken baby.

Nonsense, as previously stated. These men are absolute titans. Pippen might be the finest all-around defender the NBA has ever seen. Malone merely the best player to play his position in this game's history.

[Scott D]

jlew doesn't have a problem with Malone.

but seriously, let's put Hakeem at PF since he was there in the Ralph Sampson days ;)

[JLEW1818]

how can Malone be ahead of Duncan?

I mean just look at Simmons opinion for an example. A legit sports writer. Has Duncan at what 7? and Karl Malone at 18?

how can there be that big of gap in opinion? not even close

Kobe and Charles Barkley have both said Tim Duncan is the best power forward ever.

[Scott D]

pssht...Kobe.

I'm not listening to a 3 tell me who the best 4 is.

[JLEW1818]

a 3 or a 2?

Kobe the second best shooting guard ever? yes

[Scott D]

I'm not gonna listen to a 2 tell me who the best 4 is.

[JLEW1818]

so would u call somebody an idiot if they said Charles Barkley was better than Karl Malone?

[Eielson]

pssht...Kobe.

I'm not listening to a 3 tell me who the best 4 is.

Dude...he's got three people to back him up!

[Collier11]

how can Malone be ahead of Duncan?

I mean just look at Simmons opinion for an example. A legit sports writer. Has Duncan at what 7? and Karl Malone at 18?

how can there be that big of gap in opinion? not even close

Kobe and Charles Barkley have both said Tim Duncan is the best power forward ever.

First of all, saying he is a legit sports writer is strictly your opinion. Simmons is a fan just like us, he does a lot of research but he also is in the business of entertaining.

[JLEW1818]

Malone is great, he also had the PG with the most assists ever with him. a record that has just as good as chance of being broken, as CY Young's win record.

Duncan > Karl

[JLEW1818]

First of all, saying he is a legit sports writer is strictly your opinion. Simmons is a fan just like us, he does a lot of research but he also is in the business of entertaining.

I'm honestly not a Simmons fan, b/c his love for Bron Bron

for 18th on a list, and 7th??? damn

[Collier11]

and dont get me wrong, I like Simmons but he is no journalist and no sports genius, he is a fan who does his homework and offers his opinions

[Curly Bill]

jlew, you're right on this one. Don't let these fools tell you otherwise.

[JLEW1818]

C11, read his book and your opinion will change on him.

[Collier11]

why would his book change my mind?

[Curly Bill]

why would his book change my mind?

I think jlew was just razzing you because you can't read. :(

[Collier11]

hoocked on phonix babey

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I've read Bill Simmons books and articles...While at times entertaining, he is not basketball guru...I would give Scott D's top 50 as much cred as Simmons...

BTW, steal statistics don't mean much, because the some of the best defenders of all time didn't have their steal statistics kept because it wasn't an official stat til late in the game...

If Jerry West's steal statistics were kept, nobody else would be in the same area code

[Collier11]

If steal statistics meant more then AI wouldve been ALL DEF team every season

[JLEW1818]

AI sucks. His teams typically were better without him on it.


Simmons book is great. If he aint a NBA stat/guru... idk who is ?

[Collier11]

He is not an NBA guru, for the last time...and yea, AI sucks :rolleyes:

[yankee]

AI sucks. His teams typically were better without him on it.




he literally single handily took the sixers to the finals in 2000...

[JLEW1818]

"typically"

how bout all the other years? what a horrible person and horrible teammate

and no, AI does not suck.

[Collier11]

The Sixers were one of the top teams in the East for a long time with just him basically. Also, never heard a single guy that he played with at Philly say he was a bad teammate, the teams were built around him and they all knew that

[Scott D]

hah my top 50 has more cred than Simmons.

Difference is, I'd get called a hater for rating these incomplete fools that play today lower than everyone else tends to rank them.

[JLEW1818]

well i would def not build a team around Iverson.


PRACTICE.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I&feature=related

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Simmons is a Boston RS/Patriots/any NE team sport guru...and he is a funny writer that made page 2 pretty hilarious at one point...

at the all star break of the '72 season, West was averaging unofficially over 10 steals a game....The 3 games I watched from that season, he had 14, 12, 11..

[JLEW1818]

hmmm

when did steals become a stat?

I've always heard that Wilt would average a triple double if blocks were counted then

he is a boston homer, but he does say Magic was better than Bird.

which he was

[JLEW1818]

were u just stating a fact on jerry west and steals? I don't remember mentioning anything about steals.

John Stockon's assists record will never be broken, past, present, future

as for how many steals West had, i have no idea.

[Eielson]

were u just stating a fact on jerry west and steals? I don't remember mentioning anything about steals.

Michael Jordan I believe.

[JLEW1818]

ohhh ok, gotcha. cause Stockton leads in both steals and assists. so i thought that he might have thought that i was talking about assists.

[Scott D]

hmmm

when did steals become a stat?

I've always heard that Wilt would average a triple double if blocks were counted then

he is a boston homer, but he does say Magic was better than Bird.

which he was

Wilt said that both he and Russell would have averaged a triple double every season if blocks had been counted as statistics back then.

****, Wilt's debut game his rookie season he put up 43 pts, 28 boards and 17 blocks.

[My Opinion Matters]

I really need to visit this forum more often.

A couple of things: Pippen is a top 15 player in NBA history, regardless of position. Probably the most underappreciated and misunderstood NBA star ever.

Tim Duncan over Karl Malone 100 times out of 100.

[JLEW1818]

Pippen top 15?

can i hear your other 14? :D

[Collier11]

Pippen isnt top 30 of all time, let alone top 15

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I have to agree with the girls...Pippen isn't top 15, 30, or anywhere near the top

[My Opinion Matters]

In regards to Pippen:

I guess things like the versatility to play 4 positions, the ability to defend 5 positions, being the primary ball-handler, the second best rebounder, the second best scorer, and the best defender on 6 championship teams doesn't mean anything?

[My Opinion Matters]

Top 15, in no particular order:

Jordan
Pippen
Olajuwon
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe
Shaq
Russell
Chamberlain
Robertson
West
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Bill Cartwright

[Collier11]

In regards to Pippen:

I guess things like the versatility to play 4 positions, the ability to defend 5 positions, being the primary ball-handler, the second best rebounder, the second best scorer, and the best defender on 6 championship teams doesn't mean anything?

Versatility doesnt make you great, it makes you valuable. BTW, you call him the best defender, Jordan was 1st team all defense 9 times, Pippen 8 times. Pippen was really good but he wasnt top 20 or 30 at all

[Collier11]

I have to agree with the girls...

are you talkin bout Jlews man boobs again

[My Opinion Matters]

Versatility doesnt make you great, it makes you valuable. BTW, you call him the best defender, Jordan was 1st team all defense 9 times, Pippen 8 times. Pippen was really good but he wasnt top 20 or 30 at all

That's a really terrible way to evaluate the defensive prowess of a player, Collie.

Jordan is the greatest player ever. Jordan was a great defender. Pippen was the better defensive player.

Versalitily doesn't make Pippen great? O RLY? So the fact that Pippen holds the NBA career records for assists and steals by a forward doesn't make him great? The fact that Pippen is one of three NBA players to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season doesn't make him great? Or what about Pippen being one of four NBA players EVER to lead his team in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals) in a season? Yeah, that guy must suck.

You guys are way off on this one.

[Collier11]

you are comparing him to the greatest of the greatest ever and thats just not true. Like I said, he is really good, def top 50 all time but he is in no way a top 20 player like you say

[My Opinion Matters]

you are comparing him to the greatest of the greatest ever and thats just not true. Like I said, he is really good, def top 50 all time but he is in no way a top 20 player like you say

Why? Cuz you say so?

[Collier11]

No, cuz he isnt. Anybody who knows anything about basketball says say, he just isnt, sorry

[My Opinion Matters]

No, cuz he isnt. Anybody who knows anything about basketball says say, he just isnt, sorry

The people you're talking to don't know much about basketball then.

[Collier11]

Well these arent my friends, these are people that cover the sport for a living

[My Opinion Matters]

Collie, you say there's at least 30 players better than Pippen. I'd really like to see that list.

[Collier11]

Im saying he isnt a top 20-30 player of all time, depending on if you include the current group of players he might not be top 40.

[My Opinion Matters]

So name 30 players that are better.

[Collier11]

Youve already told me that I dont know anything about basketball so why should I take the time to compile a list. My opinion is shared by most everyone who covers basketball that he isnt a top 20 and is borderline top 30

[My Opinion Matters]

So in others words, you can't or are afraid to do it.

[Collier11]

Exactly, im afraid...what im saying is that youve already stated that you dont agree with me, in your opinion since I dont agree with you on Pippen I have no clue about basketball, nevermind that ive played it since I was 10 and I have followed it since the same time.

So, why would I want to take the time to compile a list for you just so you can hit reply and tell me im wrong. You dont agree with me, the consensus does

[My Opinion Matters]

Exactly, im afraid...what im saying is that youve already stated that you dont agree with me, in your opinion since I dont agree with you on Pippen I have no clue about basketball, nevermind that ive played it since I was 10 and I have followed it since the same time.

So, why would I want to take the time to compile a list for you just so you can hit reply and tell me im wrong. You dont agree with me, the consensus does

What is this consensus among basketball experts you keep referencing? The only one I've actually seen make a list is Simmons, and I think he had Pippen 23rd or 24th.

[Collier11]

Bill Simmons doesnt cover the NBA, he is an entertainment writer, this has already been covered

[Collier11]

Ill make you a list, not a big deal. Not sure when ill have it ready but ill post it in here when im done

[My Opinion Matters]

Simmons knows basketball as well as any writer I've read, but even I think he has Pippen too low.

[JLEW1818]

Lebron top 15? Lol

[My Opinion Matters]

Lebron top 15? Lol

It's a bit of a dubious ranking, he's not certainly among the 15 most accomplished players in NBA history right now. It's impossible to ignore his talent though. It's basically like a preseason college football poll. He's got the ranking on the expectation of where he's going to finish. Right now, he's a better player than Kobe. Right now, Lebron is better than Kobe ever has been. At this point in their careers it's not fair to rank Lebron ahead of Kobe, but the ceiling for Lebron is much higher. Lebron might be the only player I'll see in my lifetime that has a legitimate chance at challenging Jordan for best ever.

[Collier11]

The issue is are you ranking basketball skill as an individual or accomplishments

[My Opinion Matters]

There's no singular, magical way to evaluate a player. But player "x" was the best player on "y" number of championship teams is a good place to start.

[Scott D]

David Thompson was better than Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and Iverson.


So suck it.

[Eielson]

No, cuz he isnt. Anybody who knows anything about basketball says say, he just isnt, sorry

Great example of how not to argue.

[Curly Bill]

Pippen's not close enough to being in the top 15 to even smell those guys.

[JLEW1818]

you know its funny. i hear this all the time. If Lebron had "the lakers" and Kobe had the "cavs"

guess what. Kobes stats would go up, Lebrons would go down.

would the lakers be better with Lebron? i honestly do think so.

would the cavs be better with Kobe? No.

different style teams.

that does not "automatically" make Lebron better than kobe.


Greatness is more than stats, its about championships too.

Kobe is GREATER than Lebron.

the usual stupid argument, "lebron has nobody" well that "nobody on his team" have won more games than any other team in the last 2 season. so therefore the cavs have been better than the lakers the last 2 years right? the cavs have been the best team in the nba the last 2 years right?

[Scott D]

ok jlew

George Mikan or Ralph Sampson?

[JLEW1818]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7rsqsNf4SE

[Scott D]

know how I know you're a crackbaby?

[JLEW1818]

my dads a dem

moms a repub


:D

I'm so ****ing far right it aint funny

[Scott D]

crackbaby this isn't the rlimc circle jerk forum, this is the general sports forum. :)

[JLEW1818]

i hate crack

[Collier11]

Great example of how not to argue.

when someone doesnt care to agree with you, sometimes the best way to present your argument is in the simplest form.

[My Opinion Matters]

when someone doesnt care to agree with you, sometimes the best way to present your argument is in the simplest form.

The problem is you and your fellow Pippen-bashers counter my argument that is based on facts with the supposition that "omg Pippen sucks lol". Look, I get that the casual fan wouldn't appreciate Pippen's game. He was kind of a bland guy that had a bland sort of game. He never really did anything that made you say "Oh my god did you just see that?!", but his production on the court and the praise of those who played with and against him speaks for itself. He's the type of guy that made every team he ever played for better.

[Collier11]

When have I ever bashed Pippen? Geez! All I have ever said is that I do not agree that he is top 20 or 30 all time, still a really good, all time type player

[Scott D]

I don't care as long as you recognize that Connie Hawkins and David Thompson are top 3 all time.

[Collier11]

youre just silly

[Scott D]

You kids are just haters.

[My Opinion Matters]

Luc Longley also.

[Eielson]

when someone doesnt care to agree with you, sometimes the best way to present your argument is in the simplest form.

"Everybody knows" type statements are never the way to go.

[Collier11]

Ive never heard any single person who works in or covers the NBA who has mentioned Pippen amongst the Best Ever, being Top 20 would be one of the Best Ever

[Scott D]

Top 5 would be the best ever, end of story.

[JLEW1818]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird

my updated

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I don't care as long as you recognize that Connie Hawkins and David Thompson are top 3 all time.

Silly Scott, don't you know the greatest of all time are only players we've been subjected to at some point in our lives, namely the last 10 years....Thats why Kevin Durant is the 2nd greatest player ever behind Lebron

[JLEW1818]

yep, stupid new generation liberal america.

hell its my age group that ****s everything up ..


"ohhh yah man lets vote for Obama, he is gonna sprea the wealth and reduce tax cuts!!!! lets be different man ya!!!! we are rebels!!! yah man!!!!"

"Lebron man he is the best!!!,stats stats stats.... MJ was ok i guess.... but Lebron is the greatest ever already"


stupid ****ing liberals

[JLEW1818]

I'm 22 as far as how far back i can remember.

I remember MJ's 3rd ring, and on

[stoops the eternal pimp]

IMO, these are the players that I would rank ahead of Pippen..really not in order

Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Earl Monroe
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'Neal
Julius Erving
Rick Barry
David Robinson
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Karl Malone
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Kobe Bryant
Isaiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
John Stockton
Charles Barkley
Dave Cowens
Walt Frazier
Elvin Hayes
Patrick Ewing

[Curly Bill]

Yup, I didn't see anyone there that I would rank Pippen ahead of.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

jlew have you watched the HBO special on Magic and Bird?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

But I guess if "just" considering him a top 50 all timer is pippen hatin, then I'm a hater..

[JLEW1818]

nope, aint got HBO, i got Cinemax ... :D :D :D


thinking about switching to hbo.

max is 10 a month
hbo is 15 a month

[Collier11]

think about it though, max is $5 less a month but you are probably spending $10 or more a month on lotion so in essence, HBO is the way to go

[JLEW1818]

yah i been using a lot of spit lately

[Scott D]

You know who doesn't get enough respect....

Alex English.

I don't expect the colliers and jlews to know much of anything about guys like Connie Hawkins, and David Thompson to be honest. Hell, most people's perspective of Elgin Baylor is distorted by the proud man who would rather retire than come off the bench for the Lakers when it was clear that his knees were shot. I don't expect them to understand how much of a badass Maurice Lucas was in his prime, and how he'd have crushed Malone in a head to head match up. I certainly don't expect them to know that before there was Bird v Magic, there was West v The Big O.

I don't expect jlew to understand that the two best pure shooters this game ever saw were Pete Maravich and Rick Barry. I don't expect them to know that if not for a torn ACL in the mid 80s, people would be calling DWade or Carmelo the next Bernard King. I view today's player from a different perspective.

I would love to see Shaq in his prime go up against Wilt, Russell, Unseld, Abdul-Jabbar, and Reed in either the regular season, or even moreso the postseason. I want to see Jordan defend Jerry West. I want to see how deadly West, Maravich, and Barry would have been with a 3 point shot. I want to see Artest defend George Gervin and Connie Hawkins on consecutive nights.

I want to see how many Sportscenter dunks David Thompson would have relegating Lebron James to the last 15 minutes of the show with his one dunk that does no better than 9th on the Top 10. I want to see Pau Gasol get lit up by Darryl Dawkins and get posterized at least twice in a single game.

I may not be a basketball historian, and I certainly won't deny Michael Jordan his greatness, led mostly by his competitive nature. But I won't put him #1 on my list over Oscar Robertson, rings aren't the only measurement of how great a player can be. Otherwise stiffs like Luc Longley would be top 20 of all time material. The 10th guy on the Boston Celtics bench in the 60s would be a top 10 guy all time if it was based mostly on rings.

In fact, when you show me a guy who in his first 5 seasons averaged 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds, and 10.6 assists per game...I'll give you a guy that I'll consider on his way to being the greatest of all time.

[JLEW1818]

I don't agree with that. Rings only matter when talking about Elite players. Luke is not an Elite player. Horry is not an elite player.


This has been my point through this entire debate.

I think it's fair to say u can't be top 10 ever without a ring. So far, so true.

[Eielson]

But I guess if "just" considering him a top 50 all timer is pippen hatin, then I'm a hater..

It doesn't make a big difference to me whether you list Pippen as 15-20 or around 30, especially since there are quite a few of the all-time greats I never even saw play. I have more of a problem with people when they act as if Jordan did it by himself, and didn't need Pippen. Jordan's ring count would be closer to 0 than 6 if it weren't for Pippen. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't better, but I don't think the gap is nearly as big as people make it out to be. Lots of people like to divide basketball up into the things: offense, defense, and rebounding. Pippen has him beat on two of the three.

The argument of Jordan being the better defender because he had more steals is extremely flawed. Steals are nice, but they don't make you a good defender. If you average two steals a game for a season, that's considered really good, but that's only looking at the defense you played on two plays. If you only play defense twice in a game you're playing awful defense. Pippen got plenty of steals, though, and even lead the league in them the year Jordan wasn't with them.

When I mention that Pippen "ran the defense," I'm not meaning that he was just the best defender on the court. I mean that he actually ran the defense. Phil Jackson said he's the most intelligent defender he's every been associated with. Pippen would actually sub people out of the game for playing bad defense. Jackson said that he would literally have players coming off the court in the middle of the game and he didn't know why. He'd ask them and they'd say Scottie sent them. Rather than get mad at Pippen, he would assume that he was right, and sub the guy out.

[JLEW1818]

I don't like doing "IF's, and BUT's, but i will

If MJ didn't have Pippen, he would have 2 Rings

that's my guess


However, he did have Pippen and took 100% advantage of it

and they are the best 1-2 in the history of sports.

[Scott D]

Russell and Cousy would like to have a word with you.

[JLEW1818]

those teams had like 6 other Hall of Famers, to add to that 1-2 punch

[JLEW1818]

the 1962-63 Boston Celtics had 8 Hall of Fame players on it

[Eielson]

Russell and Cousy would like to have a word with you.

Wilt and West would, too. Well, might be kinda hard for Wilt.

[JLEW1818]

what about Kareem and Magic ?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

You know who doesn't get enough respect....

Alex English.

I don't expect the colliers and jlews to know much of anything about guys like Connie Hawkins, and David Thompson to be honest. Hell, most people's perspective of Elgin Baylor is distorted by the proud man who would rather retire than come off the bench for the Lakers when it was clear that his knees were shot. I don't expect them to understand how much of a badass Maurice Lucas was in his prime, and how he'd have crushed Malone in a head to head match up. I certainly don't expect them to know that before there was Bird v Magic, there was West v The Big O.

I don't expect jlew to understand that the two best pure shooters this game ever saw were Pete Maravich and Rick Barry. I don't expect them to know that if not for a torn ACL in the mid 80s, people would be calling DWade or Carmelo the next Bernard King. I view today's player from a different perspective.

I would love to see Shaq in his prime go up against Wilt, Russell, Unseld, Abdul-Jabbar, and Reed in either the regular season, or even moreso the postseason. I want to see Jordan defend Jerry West. I want to see how deadly West, Maravich, and Barry would have been with a 3 point shot. I want to see Artest defend George Gervin and Connie Hawkins on consecutive nights.

I want to see how many Sportscenter dunks David Thompson would have relegating Lebron James to the last 15 minutes of the show with his one dunk that does no better than 9th on the Top 10. I want to see Pau Gasol get lit up by Darryl Dawkins and get posterized at least twice in a single game.

I may not be a basketball historian, and I certainly won't deny Michael Jordan his greatness, led mostly by his competitive nature. But I won't put him #1 on my list over Oscar Robertson, rings aren't the only measurement of how great a player can be. Otherwise stiffs like Luc Longley would be top 20 of all time material. The 10th guy on the Boston Celtics bench in the 60s would be a top 10 guy all time if it was based mostly on rings.

In fact, when you show me a guy who in his first 5 seasons averaged 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds, and 10.6 assists per game...I'll give you a guy that I'll consider on his way to being the greatest of all time.

Scott, great minds and such..

I was thinking about Alex English the other day, one of the most underrated players ever...Imagine the talk he would have received if he had played on a decent team..

Another guy...Bernard King...just unbelievable player IMO...

Edit: I see you brought up BK also

[Eielson]

what about Kareem and Magic ?

Of course. I wasn't saying that was the only one.

[JLEW1818]

yah i know

lets hear your top 5, 1-2 punches

don't have to be in order

[Eielson]

yah i know

lets hear your top 5, 1-2 punches

don't have to be in order

Wilt and West
Wilt and Baylor
Kareem and Magic
Shaq and Kobe
Mikan and Mikkelsen

[Scott D]

Name your top 5 1-2 NON-Laker punches :)

[JLEW1818]

Yao and Tmac :O

[Scott D]

not you dingleberry.

You should know better than to pose any naming question to Eielson without disqualifying all Laker selections.

[Eielson]

Name your top 5 1-2 NON-Laker punches :)

Oh. :P

I think we have several people on here better suited to pick a top 5 all-time 1-2 punch. A lot of the great duos I never even got to see play. If I had to pick, it would probably be something like this (in no particular order):

Alcindor-Robertson
Cousy-Russell
Pippen-Jordan
Magic-Kareem
Wilt-West

I can't really pick a best one.

[Eielson]

not you dingleberry.

You should know better than to pose any naming question to Eielson without disqualifying all Laker selections.

Don't hate on Vern Mikkelsen. :P

[Scott D]

why do you hate

Erving-Malone? :P

[Eielson]

Well, they certainly couldn't beat out a Lakers duo.

[Scott D]

except Doc won his only title when those two became a duo, much like how Oscar Robertson needed Lew Alcindor to get his title.

[Eielson]

What are the best duos right now? I can't really think of any off the top of my head that impress me. Well, other than Kobe and Pau.

[Collier11]

homer pick but when they are on, Durant and Westbrook are really good. Problem is that Westbrook is too incosistent still

[yankee]

What are the best duos right now? I can't really think of any off the top of my head that impress me. Well, other than Kobe and Pau.

westbrook-durant
deron williams-carlos boozer
steve nash-amar'e stoudemire
chauncey billups-'melo

[stoops the eternal pimp]

jlew-c11

[My Opinion Matters]

Gay-Mayo. (Rudy Gay-OJ Mayo).

Not that I really believe that, it just sounds pretty funny.

[JLEW1818]

Duncan-Parker

[Collier11]

STEP and bonerville

[stoops the eternal pimp]

i've lead bonerville in assists 3 years in a row

[Collier11]

youre a hands on kinda guy

[Eielson]

None of these duos are intimidating.

[Scott D]

intimidating to a degree would be

Howard-Lewis (when his shot is falling)

and if he can ever stay healthy, Redd-Jennings will be one to watch.

[JLEW1818]

Magic in 6, over Cavs ECF

[Eielson]

Howard-Lewis (when his shot is falling)


That's better.

[yankee]

None of these duos are intimidating.

i'd like to see you suit up against nash and stoudemire. :)