**Official - Let's Talk About Healthcare Thread**

[JohnnyMack]

Since it seems like that'll be the topic o' the week in the news let's get started.

My first question is: Do you have a constitutional right to have the Gubmint pay for your healthcare?

[tommieharris91]

My first question is: Do you have a constitutional right to have the Gubmint pay for your healthcare?

Nope.

[47straight]

No.



And I'll throw in that I hate in when some political scumbag conflates healthcare with health insurance to get votes.

[badger]

If the gov't has to pay for your healthcare, prepare for the gov't to make decisions regarding your health... banning trans fats, cigarettes... perhaps they'll ration out alcohol so that each person over 21 can only buy a certain amount per week/month... hmmmm...

You see it with businesses, where bailouts are getting strings attached left and right. Anything the government funds, the government will dictate. If you want to dictate your own health decision, best to pay for it yourself.

(I'm not saying it's the best choice to pay yourself - government health care officials could probably make better health decisions than I have thus far)

[AggieTool]

Since it seems like that'll be the topic o' the week in the news let's get started.

My first question is: Do you have a constitutional right to have the Gubmint pay for your healthcare?

Not at all.

But then again, there's a lot of stuff we consider "rights" that aren't technically "rights" according to the constitution.

[BornandBred]

Are you willing to pay for bumbs to get a routine X Ray?

Doesn't matter if we're willing. The question is, are we ready? If our economy is weak right now, just wait till we have to foot this ugly MOFO.

[achiro]

Everyone likes to say, "look at the mess in Canada" or "look at the mess in Europe" when arguing against Gubment healthcare. I say look no further than the mess we call Medicare to see how poorly the US gubment can run a healthcare system.

[Vaevictis]

Better question to begin:
Are you willing to pay for bumbs to get a routine X Ray?

Depends on whether it's more efficient for the government to do it or not.

I find it not-at-all-curious that, as soon as there's actual political will to get government involved, all of the sudden the health care industry starts making noise about how it's going to become more efficient.

[OU4LIFE]

My opinion would probably depend a lot on whether or not my job offered health care benefits.

I'm of the opinion that you don't have a 'right' to paid healthcare, but you have a right to be cared for, but you are responsible for the cost, within your station.

[Vaevictis]

Everyone likes to say, "look at the mess in Canada" or "look at the mess in Europe" when arguing against Gubment healthcare. I say look no further than the mess we call Medicare to see how poorly the US gubment can run a healthcare system.

Heh, and you need look no further than the mess we call our medical system to see that privatized health care is jacked up too.

The problem with health care is that a goodly portion of it is such that you simply can't build an efficient free market around it. For a free market to work, there has to be actual competition, and I don't know about you, but if I'm dying of a heart attack, I'm not going to spend time shopping around. The closest doctor, no matter the price, will do.

And of course, government run stuff has their own inefficiencies.

I think that about the only conclusion you can really draw is that nobody has a good solution for health care.

[BornandBred]

I think that about the only conclusion you can really draw is that nobody has a good solution for health care.

So I vote we don't institute the one what will raise taxes, make getting non emergent health care a nightmare, and make the gov'nt bigger.

[Vaevictis]

So I vote we don't institute the one what will raise taxes, make getting non emergent health care a nightmare, and make the gov'nt bigger.

If I can get the same level of service for the same amount or less -- I don't care what form the price gets paid in.

What I would like to see is a national insurance system for catastrophic events -- heart attacks, getting hit by an 18 wheeler, etc -- that require instant care (eg, the kind of stuff that you can't build an efficient free market around), and a free market for the rest.

[BornandBred]

If I can get the same level of service for the same amount or less -- I don't care what form the price gets paid in.

What I would like to see is a national insurance system for catastrophic events -- heart attacks, getting hit by an 18 wheeler, etc -- that require instant care (eg, the kind of stuff that you can't build an efficient free market around), and a free market for the rest.

Isn't that kinda what we have? Isn't it illegal for an ER to turn anyone away?

[Vaevictis]

Isn't that kinda what we have? Isn't it illegal for an ER to turn anyone away?

Yeah, but who pays the ER?

[BornandBred]

Yeah, but who pays the ER?

I'm not quite sure. But I'd assume when an ER bill goes unpaid it gets absorbed into the hospitals operating costs and spread to those that DO pay their bills and their insurance companies. Could be wrong, that's just how I'd figure it works.

[Vaevictis]

I'm not quite sure. But I'd assume when an ER bill goes unpaid it gets absorbed into the hospitals operating costs and spread to those that DO pay their bills and their insurance companies. Could be wrong, that's just how I'd figure it works.

That's about how I expect it works also.

Now, if you remove all of the uncertainty and overhead of dealing with those unpaid bills, do you suppose the hospital might be able to operate more efficiently, and perhaps pull its costs down?

[BornandBred]

That's about how I expect it works also.

Now, if you remove all of the uncertainty and overhead of dealing with those unpaid bills, do you suppose the hospital might be able to operate more efficiently, and perhaps pull its costs down?

Well sure, but then you're passing that burden to the tax payers and an even more 'efficient' system in the federal government. I'm assuming that because a hospital has to make money to stay in business and the government can just print more money, the hospital is more efficient. So, if you look at the loss in efficiency for each option, it requires more $$ to have the government run the show.

[Vaevictis]

Well sure, but then you're passing that burden to the tax payers and an even more 'efficient' system in the federal government.

And as it stands, it's all being passed onto insurance policy holders and people who pay their bills when they go to the ER -- plus the overhead of dealing with the bad debt.

The basic health care costs overall should be the same in both systems -- you just get to eliminate the waste associated with the bad debt with the scenario where EVERYONE is insured for this sort of thing.


I'm assuming that because a hospital has to make money to stay in business and the government can just print more money, the hospital is more efficient.

The same argument would imply that there isn't anything the government is more efficient at than the private sector, which I would argue has been shown to be untrue.

[TUSooner]

No.

[BornandBred]

The same argument would imply that there isn't anything the government is more efficient at than the private sector, which I would argue has been shown to be untrue.

Not to play the part as pure republican here, but can you point an instance out? I'm sure they exists, but... I can't think of one.

[NYC Poke]

Private insurance is already heavily subsidized by the governemnt, which makes it a form of socialized healthcare. Employers get takes breaks for providing insurance to their employees, and employer contributions to healthcare are not counted as taxable income to the employees.

We need to somehow move away from the model of emloyment-based health insurance. Some form of universal healthcare seems inevitable to me, because our current model is unworkable and unsustainable. And when it comes, the agenda won't be driven by the left. It will be pushed by employers who feel they can't compete with foreign competitors who do not carry the healthcare costs of their employees.

[BornandBred]

The basic health care costs overall should be the same in both systems -- you just get to eliminate the waste associated with the bad debt with the scenario where EVERYONE is insured for this sort of thing.

You're assuming both machines work with the same losses and efficiencies? I'd argue against that.

[NYC Poke]

Not to play the part as pure republican here, but can you point an instance out? I'm sure they exists, but... I can't think of one.


Medicare is widely viewed as being more efficient that private insurers.

Note, however, that when it is your care at hand, you don't necessarily want what is most efficient, you want what is best.

[Veritas]

Since it seems like that'll be the topic o' the week in the news let's get started.

My first question is: Do you have a constitutional right to have the Gubmint pay for your healthcare?
No.

But I'm hoping that the threat of UHC forces the healthcare industry to quick ****ing us in the ***...initial indications are good.

[BornandBred]

Medicare is widely viewed as being more efficient that private insurers.

Note, however, that when it is your care at hand, you don't necessarily want what is most efficient, you want what is best.

As an engineer, I always want whats most efficient, because it IS what's best.

[Vaevictis]

Not to play the part as pure republican here, but can you point an instance out? I'm sure they exists, but... I can't think of one.

I think it's pretty well established that you don't want the private sector running law enforcement or the military, right?

Additionally, there are instances where the private sector simply can't profitably fill a need, and the government has to step in and do it. Rural utilities come to mind.

[Vaevictis]

You're assuming both machines work with the same losses and efficiencies? I'd argue against that.

I'm assuming that the hospital is going to have the same costs irrespective of whether they get paid by the government or they shovel off those costs onto what paying customers they have.

[Veritas]

I think it's pretty well established that you don't want the private sector running law enforcement or the military, right?
Those are not businesses, those are bodies that must be granted universal authority in order to be effective.

Try again.

[Vaevictis]

Those are not businesses, those are bodies that must be granted universal authority in order to be effective.

Try again.

Governments can and have outsourced this stuff to private industry in the past, and could today if they chose to.

[Vaevictis]

Hell, in some cases they DO outsource this stuff to private industry today. (c.f. bounty hunters and Blackwater)

[Veritas]

Governments can and have outsourced this stuff to private industry in the past, and could today if they chose to.
Seriously, not to be a dick, but give us an example of where government did ran an enterprise better than the private sector. You said it was well established that there were examples, but you've only given us (para)military organizations. Those are not enterprises.

[Vaevictis]

Blackwater sure as **** is an enterprise.

[NYC Poke]

As an engineer, I always want whats most efficient, because it IS what's best.


What achieves the optimum efficiency for a system may not produce the optimum result for an individual within that system.

[BornandBred]

I'm assuming that the hospital is going to have the same costs irrespective of whether they get paid by the government or they shovel off those costs onto what paying customers they have.

I'm speaking more to the handling of the debt, not the method of how the hospitals get paid. So, you assume the hospital get paid by the gov'nt for all emergency care visits, so they can trim down SOME staff and focus on only medicine. But, the government has to form appropriations committees and councils to determine what health care is truly emergent. Is my regular flu as emergent as your swine flu? I don't want the gov'nt telling me that because I went to the ER because I had regular flu and not swine flu that I'm not covered. And if they cover EVERYTHING at the ER, well, guess where everyone will be getting all their care at.

[BornandBred]

What achieves the optimum efficiency for a system may not produce the optimum result for an individual within that system.

The optimum solution is one that finds a balance between the individuals making up the system and the cost of the system overall. Cost is directly related to efficiency, ie more overhead = more cost = bad. Government = TONS of overhead.

[Vaevictis]

Basically, Veritas, if you go digging through some history books, you're going to find that right up until the past 150-200 years, soldiering was big business.

Hell, in some places, the big export was mercenaries (see Switzerland). Why did that stop?

[Veritas]

Basically, Veritas, if you go digging through some history books, you're going to find that right up until the past 150-200 years, soldiering was big business.
Government does soldiering better than the private sector. Fine.

Provide other examples of where the government did anything better than private enterprise.

[JohnnyMack]

Hell, in some cases they DO outsource this stuff to private industry today. (c.f. bounty hunters and Blackwater)

We don't need their scum...

[Vaevictis]

But, the government has to form appropriations committees and councils to determine what health care is truly emergent. Is my regular flu as emergent as your swine flu? I don't want the gov'nt telling me that because I went to the ER because I had regular flu and not swine flu that I'm not covered. And if they cover EVERYTHING at the ER, well, guess where everyone will be getting all their care at.

(1) I'm not saying that the government will be more efficient. I'm saying it might be, and pointed out one possible area of savings. If I left you with the impression that I was giving a comprehensive treatment, that was not my intent.
(2) I'd really just like to see some data on this. There's a lot of political grandstanding and throwing about of terms (oh nos, socialism) and one-sided accounts of horror stories (oh nos, lines in Canada!). I'd like to cut through that bull****, and take an view and try and figure out what's most efficient.

Really, I don't care if the government ends up running health care or not. What I want is the lowest cost for the highest benefit. If that's private industry, fine. If it's government, fine. If it's some hybrid, fine. Let's just get there.

[Vaevictis]

Provide other examples of where the government did anything better than private enterprise.

Usually, the obvious examples fall out in places where population density is insufficient to support private enterprise, or profit is greatly separated from investment by risk and time.

Rural utilities; rural rescue services. Fundamental research. Military. Law enforcement. Those are the ones that immediately come to mind for me.

[BornandBred]

(1) I'm not saying that the government will be more efficient. I'm saying it might be, and pointed out one possible area of savings. If I left you with the impression that I was giving a comprehensive treatment, that was not my intent.
(2) I'd really just like to see some data on this. There's a lot of political grandstanding and throwing about of terms (oh nos, socialism) and one-sided accounts of horror stories (oh nos, lines in Canada!). I'd like to cut through that bull****, and take an view and try and figure out what's most efficient.

Really, I don't care if the government ends up running health care or not. What I want is the lowest cost for the highest benefit. If that's private industry, fine. If it's government, fine. If it's some hybrid, fine. Let's just get there.

Well, unlike many of my republican counter parts, I don't think 'socialism' is a bad word. In theory, it's a solid idea. In practice it's a well intentioned mistake. Nearly every socialist program ever seems to be abused by a large portion of those using it. Without corruption and abuse I think socialism could work. But, that's like saying without teeth sharks make great pets.

I'm with you on getting the best health care available, no matter how that works. However, because I'm skeptical of my government and its ability to do ANYTHING cheaply, properly. and efficiently, I think it's best left to free market.

[BornandBred]

Usually, the obvious examples fall out in places where population density is insufficient to support private enterprise, or profit is greatly separated from investment by risk and time.

Rural utilities; rural rescue services. Fundamental research. Military. Law enforcement. Those are the ones that immediately come to mind for me.

Short of toll roads, I don't think you'll find many businesses clamoring to own roads. So, the cost of production is not surprisingly left to government, but THAT is why we pay taxes.

[Vaevictis]

I'm with you on getting the best health care available, no matter how that works. However, because I'm skeptical of my government and its ability to do ANYTHING cheaply, properly. and efficiently, I think it's best left to free market.

Eh, in areas where the free market works, I agree with you. But the efficiencies you typically would like to reap from a free market require things that you typically don't see in certain areas of health care. Like I said, it's not like you're going to shop around for the best price when you're dying from a heart attack.

I think these areas merit looking at.

[Vaevictis]

Worse, there are areas in health care where we could have a free market, but don't thanks to government granted monopolies (ie, patents).

I'm not saying patents are necessarily bad thing, but much of the health care market simply does not and cannot function as a free market.

[Vaevictis]

Short of toll roads, I don't think you'll find many businesses clamoring to own roads. So, the cost of production is not surprisingly left to government, but THAT is why we pay taxes.

Even toll roads wouldn't get built to some places. I mean, seriously, who would pay to go to Tecumseh, OK?

[NYC Poke]

The optimum solution is one that finds a balance between the individuals making up the system and the cost of the system overall. Cost is directly related to efficiency, ie more overhead = more cost = bad. Government = TONS of overhead.

Actually, overhead is one area where Medicare has proven to be vastly more efficient that private insurance. Their expenditures on overhead are miniscule compared to private insurers, something like 3% or less of overall expenditures.

[BornandBred]

Eh, in areas where the free market works, I agree with you. But the efficiencies you typically would like to reap from a free market require things that you typically don't see in certain areas of health care. Like I said, it's not like you're going to shop around for the best price when you're dying from a heart attack.

I think these areas merit looking at.

I agree that emergency life saving health care is something that you don't bargain hunt for. Maybe some kind of regulation, but I still am not a fan of that. So, I don't know, but as I've said a lot over the last year, changing for changing's sake is NOT a good thing.

Something else that is along the same lines: What do we do with all the people that are killing themselves with their diet and lifestyle? If the government starts helping these people that cost is again spread to the rest of us. It's that or the government gets to dictate their diets and exercise, and all kinds of regulation ensues. It's a scary prospect: more and more unhealthy people riding off the government or the government mandating diets and exercise.

[BornandBred]

Actually, overhead is one area where Medicare has proven to be vastly more efficient that private insurance. Their expenditures on overhead are miniscule compared to private insurers, something like 3% or less of overall expenditures.

I wonder why that is? I would expect there has to be a logical reason because the private sector would just adopt the better business model if that were the case (and I'm not calling you a liar).

[Vaevictis]

Medicare has no marketing costs. I read the report NYC Poke is referring to, and this was a large part of the savings.

[badger]

Completely off topic, I think it's wonderful that you're spending so much time here, NYC Poke :D For the longest time, poke fans would just avoid this board... the advent of Stunned Aggie seemed to change that...

I also think it's wonderful (again, completely off topic) that you're still using the avvie I created after our avvie bet ended.

If this year is your "next year" and you have risen to the peak of where your "team on the rise" will go and your health coverage (ha! ON topic!) can handle your inevitable poke-like meltdown when you inevitably lose again, I wouldn't mind doing another avvie bet this fall for football :)

[JLEW1818]

Govt needs to worry about roads and criminals. That's about it.

All I want from Obama, is to get him to motivate the "less fortunate" even if they put themselves in that situation (most of them did). He needs to challenge people, not baby them.

[Vaevictis]

So, I don't know, but as I've said a lot over the last year, changing for changing's sake is NOT a good thing.

Generally speaking, I agree with you. There are certain situations where you have to show change irrespective of what that change is -- but I don't think we're in one of those just yet.


Something else that is along the same lines: What do we do with all the people that are killing themselves with their diet and lifestyle? If the government starts helping these people that cost is again spread to the rest of us.

It already has spread to the rest of us. Eventually, these people get a disease that requires immediate medical attention, they go to the ER and get treated... and then it shows up in your premiums after your insurance company has to pay outlandish ER fees that are assessed to make up for the people who don't pay.

Really, this is one of the reasons I'm a little less worried about the government getting involved in this case. You're paying one way or the other, the only question is, whose hands does the money pass through? A greedy corporation, or a feckless bureaucrat?

Neither of them give a **** about you, so it's six of one, half a dozen of the other to me.

[NYC Poke]

I wonder why that is? I would expect there has to be a logical reason because the private sector would just adopt the better business model if that were the case (and I'm not calling you a liar).

I got my info on this in conversations with a friend who's a lawyer for a hospital system, so it's second-hand, but she's a pretty reliable person who also has a Masters in Public Health. In addition to lack of marketing costs, they're able to wield considerable market power in negotiating with healthcare providers. Also, everything is standardized.

I don't really trust the government to run healthcare (though Medicare works pretty well overall), but I don't really trust private insurers to do that, either. They make money by bringing in premiums and investing that money. They make a profit if they bring in more in premiums and investment returns than they pay out in claims.

Insurance companies bring in doctors to review claims and provide bonuses based on claims denied. There has been testimony before Congress from people who reviewed claims who came forward when they couldn't live with themselves because people were dying because they unjustifiably denied coverage. That's messed up.

[NYC Poke]

Completely off topic, I think it's wonderful that you're spending so much time here, NYC Poke :D For the longest time, poke fans would just avoid this board... the advent of Stunned Aggie seemed to change that...

I also think it's wonderful (again, completely off topic) that you're still using the avvie I created after our avvie bet ended.

If this year is your "next year" and you have risen to the peak of where your "team on the rise" will go and your health coverage (ha! ON topic!) can handle your inevitable poke-like meltdown when you inevitably lose again, I wouldn't mind doing another avvie bet this fall for football :)

I proudly display this avvie. And yes, this year is our "next year." I'm looking forward to our bet. :D

[Bourbon St Sooner]

If I can get the same level of service for the same amount or less -- I don't care what form the price gets paid in.

What I would like to see is a national insurance system for catastrophic events -- heart attacks, getting hit by an 18 wheeler, etc -- that require instant care (eg, the kind of stuff that you can't build an efficient free market around), and a free market for the rest.


I think you have a pretty good beat on the issue, but I'm not sure I agree with your prescription. I've always believed that the basic problem with our current system is that there are too few payers not too many. Another problem with the system, is that current health 'insurance' programs are not really insurance but actually prepayment for services.

I think that the catastrophic care portion acts more like true insurance - a pooling of risk - just like homeowner's insurance. Not everybody's house is going to burn down, just not like everyone is going to end up on life support. People should be forced to have these policies just like you're forced to have car insurance.

[Chuck Bao]

Private insurance is already heavily subsidized by the governemnt, which makes it a form of socialized healthcare. Employers get takes breaks for providing insurance to their employees, and employer contributions to healthcare are not counted as taxable income to the employees.

We need to somehow move away from the model of emloyment-based health insurance. Some form of universal healthcare seems inevitable to me, because our current model is unworkable and unsustainable. And when it comes, the agenda won't be driven by the left. It will be pushed by employers who feel they can't compete with foreign competitors who do not carry the healthcare costs of their employees.

I totally agree with the above.

No, I don’t think that provision of health care should be considered a constitutional right.

But, I do think that it still pretty much defines us as a society and I don’t mean in terms of compassion, but self preservation.

If we have a health care system based on wealth, which is what the current system is slowing moving towards, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would become the biggest lying, cheating, thieving bastard on the face of the planet and I would feel totally justified in doing it. I wouldn’t blame others for trying to do the same. What father or mother wants to tell their son or daughter: “I’m so sorry. There are drugs or procedures available to save your life, we just can’t afford it.”

If you think that is hyperbole. Read this MSNBC article entitled: “Too broke for the ER, patients flee”.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30628634/

I know the discussion has and should focus on adults who should know better than to eat, drink or smoke too much and exercise too little and get into fights and unprotected sex and more fights. I agree.

But, somehow, I also feel that universal health care guaranteed to our children up to a certain age wouldn’t be a bad idea and relieve some of the pressure on hard working parents these days.

The old saying: “rub some dirt on it” worked for me as a kid and maybe I was lucky. So my advice for the adults of my age “rub some dirt on it” and I’m still thinking for the kids, let’s give them our best science and medicine. As I said before, it defines our society and I should add our legacy.

[C&CDean]

I'll tell you what's ****ed up our whole healthcare dealio. It's you. And you, and you, and you.

All you mother****ers who run to the emergency room with the sniffles. All you pussies who run to the ER every time you get a hang nail or a little scratch or a bug bite. All you lily livered cod suckers who take antibiotics every time you cough or get a runny nose. All you loser parents who run your misbehaving child over to the doctor for a elephant's dose of ritalin instead of whooping his worthless little ***. All you fatasses who make a doctors appointment and then expect a prescription for something when you feel like **** - and you know that if you'd only drop 50 lbs. you'd be feeling great. All you nastyasses who dip your wick in strange people and strange places. All you worthless ****ers who think that the ER is the same thing as your doctor's office. All you no-account ****ers who don't pay your medical bills when you were the one who carried your worthless *** to the doctor for no good reason in the first place.

And to the original question? **** no.

[Vaevictis]

I think that the catastrophic care portion acts more like true insurance - a pooling of risk - just like homeowner's insurance. Not everybody's house is going to burn down, just not like everyone is going to end up on life support. People should be forced to have these policies just like you're forced to have car insurance.

The problem is that health insurance is fundamentally different from other types of insurance.

You can go the whole lifetime of a car without getting in a wreck. And you can go a whole lifetime in a house without it getting burned down by a fire.

But unless by some chance you get struck down in rapid fashion -- something that seems to be less and less likely as medicine gets more and more advanced -- sooner or later, you are going to draw down on that health insurance. And you're going to do it in a big way.

[soonervegas]

But, somehow, I also feel that universal health care guaranteed to our children up to a certain age wouldn’t be a bad idea and relieve some of the pressure on hard working parents these days.

This is where I sit too.

I think if you are a productive member of society (or have been and are now of retirement age) I think you should have access to "affordable" health care. Now whether that is more efficient through the government or the free market....I'll let the smarter posters decide that.

[KC//CRIMSON]

I'll tell you what's ****ed up our whole healthcare dealio. It's you. And you, and you, and you.

All you mother****ers who run to the emergency room with the sniffles. All you pussies who run to the ER every time you get a hang nail or a little scratch or a bug bite. All you lily livered cod suckers who take antibiotics every time you cough or get a runny nose. All you loser parents who run your misbehaving child over to the doctor for a elephant's dose of ritalin instead of whooping his worthless little ***. All you fatasses who make a doctors appointment and then expect a prescription for something when you feel like **** - and you know that if you'd only drop 50 lbs. you'd be feeling great. All you nastyasses who dip your wick in strange people and strange places. All you worthless ****ers who think that the ER is the same thing as your doctor's office. All you no-account ****ers who don't pay your medical bills when you were the one who carried your worthless *** to the doctor for no good reason in the first place.

And to the original question? **** no.


Yeah! You hear that people?! Also, the next time you drive a railroad spike through your taint just stay home, pussies!

[NYC Poke]

I'll tell you what's ****ed up our whole healthcare dealio. It's you. And you, and you, and you.

All you mother****ers who run to the emergency room with the sniffles. All you pussies who run to the ER every time you get a hang nail or a little scratch or a bug bite. All you lily livered cod suckers who take antibiotics every time you cough or get a runny nose. All you loser parents who run your misbehaving child over to the doctor for a elephant's dose of ritalin instead of whooping his worthless little ***. All you fatasses who make a doctors appointment and then expect a prescription for something when you feel like **** - and you know that if you'd only drop 50 lbs. you'd be feeling great. All you nastyasses who dip your wick in strange people and strange places. All you worthless ****ers who think that the ER is the same thing as your doctor's office. All you no-account ****ers who don't pay your medical bills when you were the one who carried your worthless *** to the doctor for no good reason in the first place.

And to the original question? **** no.

Um, to the extent you're saying that our current system encourages those with private insurance to overconsume on healthcare, I'd agree with you.

[C&CDean]

Yeah! You hear that people?! Also, the next time you drive a railroad spike through your taint just stay home, pussies!

I will have you know that I did not seek medical attention for the railroad spike incident. Chainsaw in the leg? Yup. I'm pretty much from the school that any time you see bone, or blood is geysersing over 6 feet, it's time to go to the ER. When my butt itches? Not so much.

[BornandBred]

I will have you know that I did not seek medical attention for the railroad spike incident. Chainsaw in the leg? Yup. I'm pretty much from the school that any time you see bone, or blood is geysersing over 6 feet, it's time to go to the ER. When my butt itches? Not so much.

Where is the line drawn? I had food poisoning where I puked every 30 minutes for a day and a half. Do I go to the doc for that? He told me to man up and drink water. But at the time, I was hoping he'd just put me down.

[Chuck Bao]

I'll tell you what's ****ed up our whole healthcare dealio. It's you. And you, and you, and you.

All you mother****ers who run to the emergency room with the sniffles. All you pussies who run to the ER every time you get a hang nail or a little scratch or a bug bite. All you lily livered cod suckers who take antibiotics every time you cough or get a runny nose. All you loser parents who run your misbehaving child over to the doctor for a elephant's dose of ritalin instead of whooping his worthless little ***. All you fatasses who make a doctors appointment and then expect a prescription for something when you feel like **** - and you know that if you'd only drop 50 lbs. you'd be feeling great. All you nastyasses who dip your wick in strange people and strange places. All you worthless ****ers who think that the ER is the same thing as your doctor's office. All you no-account ****ers who don't pay your medical bills when you were the one who carried your worthless *** to the doctor for no good reason in the first place.

And to the original question? **** no.

You are a meanie and not a very nice person.

Part of the problem is that many companies, mine included, doesn't accept missing work unless there is a visit to the doctor.

That is the part that is sick.

But go ahead and feel good about calling people MFs for their misbehaving kids. I'm pretty sure that's right. It's either genetics or upbringing and the kids probably deserve what they get.

It almost seems like you are a Buddhist without the compassion.

[JohnnyMack]

You retards better not screw up my thread.

[C&CDean]

You are a meanie and not a very nice person.

Part of the problem is that many companies, mine included, doesn't accept missing work unless there is a visit to the doctor.

That is the part that is sick.

But go ahead and feel good about calling people MFs for their misbehaving kids. I'm pretty sure that's right. It's either genetics or upbringing and the kids probably deserve what they get.

It almost seems like you are a Buddhist without the compassion.

1. I am not a meanie.

2. I am a very nice person. Just ask anyone who knows me.

3. I have only missed 9 days of work in the past 25 years (for surgery) so I can't relate to the missing work for visiting the doctor thing.

4. ADD, ADDHD, and all the other "sicknesses" that kids have these days more times than not is simply "poor parenting syndrome." I'm not saying always, but I'd be willing to wager a hefty amount that if some of these ritalin kids spent a summer on my farm they wouldn't need the drugs any more.

5. I'm a compassionate mother****er. I just hate lazy, weak, and stupid people. We're a society of pantywaists who wouldn't survive a week if we were all sent back 100 years. Buddhist? I'll have to think on that one.

[C&CDean]

You retards better not screw up my thread.

pffft. This thread was ****ed the second you hit "submit."

[JohnnyMack]

Buddhist? I'll have to think on that one.

Well you are fat and bald...

[C&CDean]

That's really funny fellatio boy.

[badger]

I was once of the opinion of Dean, as was my dear ol' mum. We would have to have physical, hard evidence (i.e. thermometer read above 100 degrees) before we would be allowed to miss school.

Then... my 10th grade year... I got mono and didn't know it. I was tired all of the time, felt dizzy, and ate and drank less and less all because (a) I didn't have a fever so (b) I wasn't going to be missing any school.

This went on for two weeks before my mom finally relented to take me to the clinic, where I got a fast diagnosis. Because I had been forced to attend school for two weeks with the illness, I was then forced to miss several weeks of school recovering.

So anyways, sick people out there -- if you have a hang nail, suck it up, but if you are feeling progressively worse with no glimmers of hope for recovery, get your butt down to the doctor's office. By continuing to go to work or school, you're just putting your colleagues and co-workers at risk to catch whatever bug you have.

[BornandBred]

You retards better not screw up my thread.

I'm pretty sure you just performed thread masturbation.

[Chuck Bao]

1. I am not a meanie.

2. I am a very nice person. Just ask anyone who knows me.

3. I have only missed 9 days of work in the past 25 years (for surgery) so I can't relate to the missing work for visiting the doctor thing.

4. ADD, ADDHD, and all the other "sicknesses" that kids have these days more times than not is simply "poor parenting syndrome." I'm not saying always, but I'd be willing to wager a hefty amount that if some of these ritalin kids spent a summer on my farm they wouldn't need the drugs any more.

5. I'm a compassionate mother****er. I just hate lazy, weak, and stupid people. We're a society of pantywaists who wouldn't survive a week if we were all sent back 100 years. Buddhist? I'll have to think on that one.

Dean, seriously, you come across pretty strong. We need role models and I don't doubt you are a great one, although you do still seem like a meanie when you make sweeping generations. Probably a lot of kids would straighten up under a more structured environment. I also don't doubt that a lot of parents don't have that option or will power to impose a stronger study/work ethic on their kids.

I'm still bitter because I wasn't allowed a childhood. But, that was a generation ago. And, then I see Asian children spending their weekends in advanced school and that is a pity as much as farm kids in the US having to feed cattle and haul hay after school.

But really, is that a good reason to deny these kids health care?

[JLEW1818]

I'd rather pay for my family to go on vacation, than me pay for someones ****ing medicine.

People should worry about themselves, Canada is North, and Mexico is South. If you cant make it here, try it in one of those places.


If your a single mom with 4 ****ing kids and cant support them, WELL DON'T HAVE ****ING SEX IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. If you can't support the outcome of sex, then dont have sex!

[47straight]

No.

Right-wing textualist wacko.

[47straight]

Completely off topic, I think it's wonderful that you're spending so much time here, NYC Poke :D For the longest time, poke fans would just avoid this board... the advent of Stunned Aggie seemed to change that...

I also think it's wonderful (again, completely off topic) that you're still using the avvie I created after our avvie bet ended.

If this year is your "next year" and you have risen to the peak of where your "team on the rise" will go and your health coverage (ha! ON topic!) can handle your inevitable poke-like meltdown when you inevitably lose again, I wouldn't mind doing another avvie bet this fall for football :)

I too like NYC Poke. Then again I'm pretty tolerant of aggies.

[C&CDean]

Dean, seriously, you come across pretty strong. We need role models and I don't doubt you are a great one, although you do still seem like a meanie when you make sweeping generations. Probably a lot of kids would straighten up under a more structured environment. I also don't doubt that a lot of parents don't have that option or will power to impose a stronger study/work ethic on their kids.

I'm still bitter because I wasn't allowed a childhood. But, that was a generation ago. And, then I see Asian children spending their weekends in advanced school and that is a pity as much as farm kids in the US having to feed cattle and haul hay after school.

But really, is that a good reason to deny these kids health care?

You misunderstand me Chuck. I have never said deny kids healthcare. I said "whoop that ***." I also said "don't haul them to the ER or doc for every little thing." I also said "don't put them on drugs." I never said deny them healthcare.

Again, the problem in America is us. We eat like pigs, party like animals, have sex like deviants, then we run to the doctor and he prescribes something. I guess a lot of the blame should be on the doctors. Instead of saying "get your fatass off the couch, exercise, and for God's sake, don't super size anything" he says "here, take some ..............." And if he didn't prescribe something, you'd think he's a POS doctor.

[Chuck Bao]

I'd rather pay for my family to go on vacation, than me pay for someones ****ing medicine.

People should worry about themselves, Canada is North, and Mexico is South. If you cant make it here, try it in one of those places.


If your a single mom with 4 ****ing kids and cant support them, WELL DON'T HAVE ****ING SEX IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. If you can't support the outcome of sex, then dont have sex!

Let me summarize for you: Poor people should not reproduce.

Let me editorialize for you: If you are middle class and you think you have a place in the new economy, then you are sadly mistaken. Did you miss the page on new technology and outsourcing of middle management. You are either labor or management and the organizational structure is getting flatter and flatter and the divide is getting wider and wider.

Can someone explain to me why any bank's major shareholders would be opposed to the government bailout on the basis of restrictions on executive salary pay? That seems really perverse to me.

[OklahomaRed]

Take it from someone who manages issues like this on a day to day basis. We run a free healtchare clinic to anyone who qualifies in our city. You want to know what our #1 drug expenses are? Antidepressants for all our depressed jobless, antidiabetics for all our fat jobless, pain pills for all our hurting jobless, and stomach acid supressants for all jobless people with upset stomachs. Real life or death stuff!

[Chuck Bao]

Again, the problem in America is us. We eat like pigs, party like animals, have sex like deviants, then we run to the doctor and he prescribes something.

You just described my average day.

I'm pretty sure that no taxpayer should pay for my excesses because I'm not about to change my ways.

So, we don't deny any kids health care? I really like that.

You are a good man.

[Chuck Bao]

Take it from someone who manages issues like this on a day to day basis. We run a free healtchare clinic to anyone who qualifies in our city. You want to know what our #1 drug expenses are? Antidepressants for all our depressed jobless, antidiabetics for all our fat jobless, pain pills for all our hurting jobless, and stomach acid supressants for all jobless people with upset stomachs. Real life or death stuff!

I'm too busy eating and doing deviant sex to think about antidepressant drugs.

As an economist, I would be very interesting in looking at historical data on prescriptions of antidepressants. I'm sure someone does monitor it. The chart has to look really scary, though. Thank you for that post.

[OU_Sooners75]

My first question is: Do you have a constitutional right to have the Gubmint pay for your healthcare?


To answer the question...NO.

But to elaborate on this topic a little more...

I work for a company that does not offer insurance until you hit higher management. With that said, if I need insurance, I have to go out and pay for it all straight out of my pocket. Which in return gets very costly.

I am not for government subsidized healthcare. I am not asking for a hand out either. If I cannot afford it, then I do not need it. But insurance is one thing that my family and I need, thanks to the rise in medical costs.

So instead of the government paying for my insurance, I wish they would make it more affordable. Paying over $600/month for insurance when I only bring home roughly $2200/month is bull**** to say the least. If they could regulate the cost down to $300/month then that is better and I can do it easier.

How it is now, with grocery costs and everything rising...when I redo my budget next month, I will have to cut some expenditures...and the first thing to go will be the health insurance.

God, I hope my daughter does not break another bone, or that my son or I or anyone in my family gets sick the rest of their lives.

[OU_Sooners75]

Take it from someone who manages issues like this on a day to day basis. We run a free healtchare clinic to anyone who qualifies in our city. You want to know what our #1 drug expenses are? Antidepressants for all our depressed jobless, antidiabetics for all our fat jobless, pain pills for all our hurting jobless, and stomach acid supressants for all jobless people with upset stomachs. Real life or death stuff!


Cause God knows, only fat people have diabetes.

[OU_Sooners75]

I'd rather pay for my family to go on vacation, than me pay for someones ****ing medicine.

People should worry about themselves, Canada is North, and Mexico is South. If you cant make it here, try it in one of those places.


If your a single mom with 4 ****ing kids and cant support them, WELL DON'T HAVE ****ING SEX IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. If you can't support the outcome of sex, then dont have sex!

Honestly....have you only led a pampered life with a strict structural enviroment?

Because unless you live teh lifestyle of some of the citizens in this country...then stop actin like a ****ing jackass and realize, some people do need honest help. Not everyone is in the same boat, so stop ****ing lumping them all together.

[C&CDean]

Cause God knows, only fat people have diabetes.

Ah, just what we need. Another out of context extremist.

Why do people freak out over generalities? Stereotypes? And the such?

[OU_Sooners75]

Ah, just what we need. Another out of context extremist.

Why do people freak out over generalities? Stereotypes? And the such?


Because when generalizing about a disease that some people have to deal with from the day they are born....well, that is just bull**** to say the least Dean.

I agree with most of what you have said. But to generalize about a very dangerous disease...say like diabetes...and say "fat people" along with it is not entirely true.

What about AIDS? let me guess, if it was mentioned by you or whomever, it would have been stated something similar to this:


Antiretrovirals for gay jobless.Am I correct? See how stereotyping and generalizations can be way out of line?

[C&CDean]

Because when generalizing about a disease that some people have to deal with from the day they are born....well, that is just bull**** to say the least Dean.

I agree with most of what you have said. But to generalize about a very dangerous disease...say like diabetes...and say "fat people" along with it is not entirely true.

What about AIDS? let me guess, if it was mentioned by you or whomever, it would have been stated something similar to this:


Antiretrovirals for gay jobless.Am I correct? See how stereotyping and generalizations can be way out of line?

Fair enough. However, isn't it true that stereotypes and generalities are based in fact? I mean chances are if you've got diabetes, it's because of a poor diet? And don't most people with poor diets end up fat? Not always, but alot. I work with a guy who is insulin dependent and skinny as a rail. However, he still eats like ****. The guy won't eat anything but hamburgers, hot dogs, fries, chips, and crap like that.

Same goes with the AIDS deal. Chances are these folks have been screwing around with multiple/wrong partners. No, not always, but more often than not.

So why freak about it. You can generalize me as a dumb Okie redneck. It ain't true (well OK, it's partially not true), but it doesn't hurt my feelings either.

[JohnnyMack]

You can generalize me as a dumb Okie redneck. It ain't true (well OK, it's partially not true)

<snort>

[BornandBred]

Fair enough. However, isn't it true that stereotypes and generalities are based in fact? I mean chances are if you've got diabetes, it's because of a poor diet? And don't most people with poor diets end up fat? Not always, but alot. I work with a guy who is insulin dependent and skinny as a rail. However, he still eats like ****. The guy won't eat anything but hamburgers, hot dogs, fries, chips, and crap like that.

Same goes with the AIDS deal. Chances are these folks have been screwing around with multiple/wrong partners. No, not always, but more often than not.

So why freak about it. You can generalize me as a dumb Okie redneck. It ain't true (well OK, it's partially not true), but it doesn't hurt my feelings either.

Fact is everyone has hot button issues, his is diabetes. Mine is MD, make a joke about 'Jerry's Kids' in front of me and I'll go from happy to pissed in about 0.2s flat.

Back to the topic... Socialized Medicine will destroy the country. Discuss.

[C&CDean]

<snort>

Heh. A true redneck orders Keystone Light and Jack. Not Michelob Ultra and Crown.

[C&CDean]

Fact is everyone has hot button issues, his is diabetes. Mine is MD, make a joke about 'Jerry's Kids' in front of me and I'll go from happy to pissed in about 0.2s flat.

Back to the topic... Socialized Medicine will destroy the country. Discuss.

My hot button issue is stupid people.

[OU_Sooners75]

Fair enough. However, isn't it true that stereotypes and generalities are based in fact? I mean chances are if you've got diabetes, it's because of a poor diet? And don't most people with poor diets end up fat? Not always, but alot. I work with a guy who is insulin dependent and skinny as a rail. However, he still eats like ****. The guy won't eat anything but hamburgers, hot dogs, fries, chips, and crap like that.

Same goes with the AIDS deal. Chances are these folks have been screwing around with multiple/wrong partners. No, not always, but more often than not.

So why freak about it. You can generalize me as a dumb Okie redneck. It ain't true (well OK, it's partially not true), but it doesn't hurt my feelings either.

****...are they black americans then? I mean black americans tend to have a higher rate of diabetes than whites or any other race.

Hell, I am a fatass, and I aint got the disease. :D

But you are correct, if you are overweight then run a greater risk of getting diabetes than not. Of course, it also depend on how much sugar you are putting into your body too.

[OU_Sooners75]

Fact is everyone has hot button issues, his is diabetes. Mine is MD, make a joke about 'Jerry's Kids' in front of me and I'll go from happy to pissed in about 0.2s flat.

Back to the topic... Socialized Medicine will destroy the country. Discuss.


Not really a hot button issue for me...just disagree with the generalization of something that is a very serious disease.

[BornandBred]

My hot button issue is stupid people.

You'd have a very hard time driving in Houston. Full of people that need to have their skulls cracked a little.

[achiro]

Because when generalizing about a disease that some people have to deal with from the day they are born....well, that is just bull**** to say the least Dean.


You do realize that there are different kinds of diabetes don't you? One(the most common) being primarily a lifestyle induced.

[BornandBred]

Not really a hot button issue for me...just disagree with the generalization of something that is a very serious disease.

Fair 'nough. All I can say is at least diabetes is manageable.

[JLEW1818]

Honestly....have you only led a pampered life with a strict structural enviroment?

Because unless you live teh lifestyle of some of the citizens in this country...then stop actin like a ****ing jackass and realize, some people do need honest help. Not everyone is in the same boat, so stop ****ing lumping them all together.

You have to draw a line somewhere don't you? That's the debatable part.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The problem is that health insurance is fundamentally different from other types of insurance.

You can go the whole lifetime of a car without getting in a wreck. And you can go a whole lifetime in a house without it getting burned down by a fire.

But unless by some chance you get struck down in rapid fashion -- something that seems to be less and less likely as medicine gets more and more advanced -- sooner or later, you are going to draw down on that health insurance. And you're going to do it in a big way.

I disagree. Everybody is going to use the health care system to some extent, but I doubt it's much different than cars. I want to know if there's anybody over the age of 50 that's never filed an insurance claim on an automobile. Why does the gov't need to set up a large bureaucracy to perform this type of work, when the private sector has the expertise to do it.

Another issue with the current system and the single payor system is that there's no incentive for preventive care. In the type of system I'm talking about you can get a discount for going to your PCP each year or getting a colonoscopy when your 45, just like you may get a discount from your car insurance for not getting tickets.

[OU_Sooners75]

You do realize that there are different kinds of diabetes don't you? One(the most common) being primarily a lifestyle induced.

Thank you Captain Obvious. :P

There are three different type of diabetes: And none are directly linked to a lifestyle, though lifestyle risk factors in. Genetics is a bitch. A person can eat totally healthy and still come down with diabetes. The most common is type 2 diabetes.


http://www.healthinsite.gov.au/topics/Types_of_Diabetes



The three major types of diabetes are:

Type 1 diabetes (previously known as insulin-dependent diabetes)
Type 1 diabetes is an auto-immune disease where the body's immune system destroys the insulin-producing beta cells in the pancreas. This type of diabetes, also known as juvenile-onset diabetes, accounts for 10-15% of all people with the disease. It can appear at any age, although commonly under 40, and is triggered by environmental factors such as viruses, diet or chemicals in people genetically predisposed. People with type 1 diabetes must inject themselves with insulin several times a day and follow a careful diet and exercise plan.

Type 2 diabetes (previously known as non-insulin dependent diabetes)

Type 2 diabetes is the most common form of diabetes, affecting 85-90% of all people with the disease. This type of diabetes, also known as late-onset diabetes, is characterised by insulin resistance and relative insulin deficiency. The disease is strongly genetic in origin but lifestyle factors such as excess weight, inactivity, high blood pressure and poor diet are major risk factors for its development. Symptoms may not show for many years and, by the time they appear, significant problems may have developed. People with type 2 diabetes are twice as likely to suffer cardiovascular disease. Type 2 diabetes may be treated by dietary changes, exercise and/or tablets. Insulin injections may later be required.

Gestational diabetes mellitus (GDM)
GDM, or carbohydrate intolerance, is first diagnosed during pregnancy through an oral glucose tolerance test. Between 5.5 and 8.8% of pregnant women develop GDM in Australia. Risk factors for GDM include a family history of diabetes, increasing maternal age, obesity and being a member of a community or ethnic group with a high risk of developing type 2 diabetes. While the carbohydrate intolerance usually returns to normal after the birth, the mother has a significant risk of developing permanent diabetes while the baby is more likely to develop obesity and impaired glucose tolerance and/or diabetes later in life. Self-care and dietary changes are essential in treatment.

[achiro]

A person can eat totally healthy and still come down with diabetes.

Not really

[AlbqSooner]

A few years ago I spent just under 24 hours in the hospital. Tons of diagnostics which resulted in my being told I had a minor stroke. (They are only minor when they happen to someone else). The bill came to right around $27,000. I paid $500 (deductible/co-pay) my insurance paid $6,500 and the hospital marked the bill "paid in full". 24% payment of the billed amount if you have insurance, 100% payment if you don't. THAT is just wrong!

Dean is correct about using the emergency room as a doctor's office. It jacks up the cost of care for all of us. He is also right about going to the doctor for every little sniffle and getting a prescription for antibiotics. When you take antibiotics for viral infections, you are NOT doing anything to help your condition. You ARE helping to build antibiotic resistant strains of biotic creatures which require much more care if they are treatable at all. KNOCK IT OFF PEOPLE! Lots of times when you feel like chit you just have to feel like chit for a few days and be done with it. In my drinking days I never went to the doctor for a hangover. Some of them were worse than swine flu, but I figured I earned em and just suffered through - including going to work.

If you think health care is too expensive, wait till you see what is costs when its free.

[JLEW1818]

If you think health care is too expensive, wait till you see what is costs when its free.[/QUOTE]



explain..


not disagreeing.

[OU_Sooners75]

Not really

If the disease is genetic like they believe it is now...yeah they can.

That can be compared to someone that takes care of their body...does not live near high voltage lines, excersies every day, never smoked, never drank....cannot really come down with cancer.

Wanna bet?

[OU_Sooners75]

A few years ago I spent just under 24 hours in the hospital. Tons of diagnostics which resulted in my being told I had a minor stroke. (They are only minor when they happen to someone else). The bill came to right around $27,000. I paid $500 (deductible/co-pay) my insurance paid $6,500 and the hospital marked the bill "paid in full". 24% payment of the billed amount if you have insurance, 100% payment if you don't. THAT is just wrong!

Dean is correct about using the emergency room as a doctor's office. It jacks up the cost of care for all of us. He is also right about going to the doctor for every little sniffle and getting a prescription for antibiotics. When you take antibiotics for viral infections, you are NOT doing anything to help your condition. You ARE helping to build antibiotic resistant strains of biotic creatures which require much more care if they are treatable at all. KNOCK IT OFF PEOPLE! Lots of times when you feel like chit you just have to feel like chit for a few days and be done with it. In my drinking days I never went to the doctor for a hangover. Some of them were worse than swine flu, but I figured I earned em and just suffered through - including going to work.

If you think health care is too expensive, wait till you see what is costs when its free.

And it should not be free!!! But affordable.

I am a registerd democrat and I can say this with a straight face: Making healtcare free will ulitmately ruin this nation!

Also, President Obama has never said making helatcare free has he? If so, link please.

I do recall him saying that he would like to make it affordable, but not free.

Hell, there is already free healthcare in this country right now. Sooner Care in Oklahoma, Medicare/medicaid they are all forms of free healthcare.

[Ike]

Ya know, I saw some statistic somewhere (I forget where now, but it coulda been right next to the statistic that says that 77% of statistics are made up on the spot) that claimed that something like 25% of all healthcare costs in the US occur during the last year of life...which basically means to me that it's not a question of if you are going to draw big on your health insurance, but when....

and thats really the point...health insurance isn't really insurance at all. If you can't afford the premiums on your $43,000 Yukon, maybe it's time to trade it in for a $1,200 Dodge and knock those premiums down. Or if you can't afford the premiums on your house, you can always sell it and go for a smaller home, or even rent an apartment. But you are pretty much stuck with the body you've got.


Also, with all these new life saving technologies...It seems kind of like they are a double edged sword...in the last 20 years or so, health care costs (after adjusting for inflation) have gone up something like 500%. Yet our average life spans have increased maybe 2% in that same time period.

Seems like thats a horrible return on our investment.


I forgot where I was going with this.

[Ike]

Ya know, I saw some statistic somewhere (I forget where now, but it coulda been right next to the statistic that says that 77% of statistics are made up on the spot) that claimed that something like 25% of all healthcare costs in the US occur during the last year of life...which basically means to me that it's not a question of if you are going to draw big on your health insurance, but when....

and thats really the point...health insurance isn't really insurance at all. If you can't afford the premiums on your $43,000 Yukon, maybe it's time to trade it in for a $1,200 Dodge and knock those premiums down. Or if you can't afford the premiums on your house, you can always sell it and go for a smaller home, or even rent an apartment. But you are pretty much stuck with the body you've got.


Also, with all these new life saving technologies...It seems kind of like they are a double edged sword...in the last 20 years or so, health care costs (after adjusting for inflation) have gone up something like 500%. Yet our average life spans have increased maybe 2% in that same time period.

Seems like thats a horrible return on our investment.


I forgot where I was going with this.

PS. Turns out I was right about the fraction of statistics that are made up on the spot.

[AlbqSooner]

If you think health care is too expensive, wait till you see what is costs when its free.



explain..


not disagreeing.[/QUOTE]
You pay premiums to an insurance company for YOUR health care or you pay increased taxes to a gubmint for YA'LLs healthcare.

[OklahomaRed]

Cause God knows, only fat people have diabetes.

Duh? Come on now? How much do you know about the growing trend of Type II diabetes in our nation? Type I (Juvenile onset) is not going up statisstically, while new diagnosis of type II diabetes (adult onset) is going through the roof!!! At the same time the age for type II diabetes is being pushed down and down and down. The cause is multi-fasceted; however, it can be summed in in one word, "FAT". We are becoming a nation of overweight people and one of the primary healthcare risk factors is diabetes.

On another note, let me ask everyone this question. Why do you think your hospital bill is so high?

My thoughts? One reason is that there are so many uninsured, so you're bill is inflated to make up for everyone that is not paying. I call that "hidden taxes."

Two, Medicare and Medicaid do not pay the same rate that you and I pay. The government dictates what they will pay, so again, "hidden taxes".

Three, lawyers. Lawsuits, whether legitimate or not, push up the costs of healthcare. Why do you think they run so many tests when you come in with a headache? Because if they don't do a C-Scan, a MRI, and run a couple of hundred tests then the one in 300,000th case that it might have been something else, well the lawyer gets hold of it and sues the pants off the doctor, the hospital, and anyone else they can think of. So to negate this, you get the entire book of diagnosis 101 thrown at you when you walk in the door, irregardless if you have insurance or not.

[achiro]

If the disease is genetic like they believe it is now...yeah they can.

That can be compared to someone that takes care of their body...does not live near high voltage lines, excersies every day, never smoked, never drank....cannot really come down with cancer.

Wanna bet?

Yeah, because our genes have changed so much in the last 20-30 years that we should see a huge jump in diabetes because of it.
Dude, you're wrong, deal with it.

[batonrougesooner]

Interesting thread. I'm an ER doc. I see and live these issues daily. I have a perspective on this stuff I would like to share but first a quick survey. Just answer honestly.

How much do you think a fair payment to your doctor is to see him in the office for a routine visit?

How about your surgeon for a relatively simple procedure like a gallbladder removal or hernia repair?

How about the ER doctor for a simple issue like sore throat or a more complex issue like a broken bone?

What about the ER doctor for a life threatening event like a heart attack, severe life threatening infection or car wreck? (a real car wreck). Something that requires multiple procedures like chest tubes breathing tubes or spinal taps?

I'm not talking about the total cost of care. Just the payment for the doctor.

I'm just curious what people would honestly think these services are worth if you were paying them out of pocket. Before you answer think about how much you pay your plumber or your mechanic or even the guy who mows your lawn. Or more appropriately, your accountant to do your taxes or your attorney to write your will. Defend you in court.

This may be educational both for me and for you.

When I see a few answers I'll share some other thoughts, if there is interest.

[JohnnyMack]

Buck fiddy. Maybe two.

[OklahomaRed]

BTR Sooner. I totally agree. Where the healthcare system got so off base is WHEN the government decided to step in. It took the "free enterprise" system completely out of the equation and the government began dictating what it would pay and left everyone to fight over the spoils and left physicians, pharmacies, and hospitals holding the bag on patients that are not even worried enough to go get in line down at the welfare office. I feel it is a sad day when a plumber or mechanic can make more dollars and has less hassle collecting his bill than a physician or pharmacy. I'm not talking about the guy turning wrenchs. I'm talking about the owner and operator of his own shop or service.

The question you are truly asking is whether or not healthcare is a guaranteed right? I guess if the government decides to take that step, in which I am of the opinion that they already have, but the issue now is that the few of us that still pay for our healthcare costs, either directly or indirerectly through our employer, are tired or picking up both the costs and hidden costs of healthcare and still getting difficult to unwind product.

The U.S. has the best top of line care if you have the dollars to afford it; however, preventative care and well care in this country is far behind and more expensive than other countries from a dollar for dollar standpoint (i.e. the U.S.'s all cause mortality and even infant mortality rate is lower than many other countries' statistics.)

It's a mess and it got to be a mess when the government got involved.

I think the government has messed up the housing industry by saying, "everyone needs affordable housing and everyone has the right to own their own home." I guess if Big Brother wants to belly up, then everyone deserves a house, a car, unlimited healthcare, plumber, auto repair, food, clothing, gas, electricity, and on and on. Look at that list and see what the government is already providing if anyone simply wants to step off the road and sit on the curb. Look around you. Look at how many people you yourself know that have decided to sit on the curb and let Uncle Sam take care of them. :confused:

[NYC Poke]

Ya know, I saw some statistic somewhere (I forget where now, but it coulda been right next to the statistic that says that 77% of statistics are made up on the spot) that claimed that something like 25% of all healthcare costs in the US occur during the last year of life...which basically means to me that it's not a question of if you are going to draw big on your health insurance, but when....

I believe the percentage of latter-life healthcare cost is much higher. We've become very good at very expensively keeping people alive slightly longer.

[Chuck Bao]

BTR Sooner. I totally agree. Where the healthcare system got so off base is WHEN the government decided to step in. It took the "free enterprise" system completely out of the equation and the government began dictating what it would pay and left everyone to fight over the spoils and left physicians, pharmacies, and hospitals holding the bag on patients that are not even worried enough to go get in line down at the welfare office. I feel it is a sad day when a plumber or mechanic can make more dollars and has less hassle collecting his bill than a physician or pharmacy. I'm not talking about the guy turning wrenchs. I'm talking about the owner and operator of his own shop or service.

The question you are truly asking is whether or not healthcare is a guaranteed right? I guess if the government decides to take that step, in which I am of the opinion that they already have, but the issue now is that the few of us that still pay for our healthcare costs, either directly or indirerectly through our employer, are tired or picking up both the costs and hidden costs of healthcare and still getting difficult to unwind product.

The U.S. has the best top of line care if you have the dollars to afford it; however, preventative care and well care in this country is far behind and more expensive than other countries from a dollar for dollar standpoint (i.e. the U.S.'s all cause mortality and even infant mortality rate is lower than many other countries' statistics.)

It's a mess and it got to be a mess when the government got involved.

I think the government has messed up the housing industry by saying, "everyone needs affordable housing and everyone has the right to own their own home." I guess if Big Brother wants to belly up, then everyone deserves a house, a car, unlimited healthcare, plumber, auto repair, food, clothing, gas, electricity, and on and on. Look at that list and see what the government is already providing if anyone simply wants to step off the road and sit on the curb. Look around you. Look at how many people you yourself know that have decided to sit on the curb and let Uncle Sam take care of them. :confused:

I do not agree at all with any of that.

It wasn't the government that got us into the housing mess. It was the greed of private enterprise - the banks and investment bankers.

It wasn't the government that got us into this health care mess. It was the greed of private enterprise - the taking advantage of a system of charge as much as we can get away with.

There are many examples of the derivative products and "make hay while the sun shines" examples on the first case.

In the second case, you only have to look at the drug companies and why they are selling the same medicine at discount prices overseas. They have been profiteering at the expense of the US system and it has undoubtedly been a factor in the erosion of US competiveness.

US people should not have to pay a premium for their medicine over what overseas people pay. Okay, I take that back. The US government should get very involved.

[C&CDean]

Interesting thread. I'm an ER doc. I see and live these issues daily. I have a perspective on this stuff I would like to share but first a quick survey. Just answer honestly.

How much do you think a fair payment to your doctor is to see him in the office for a routine visit?

How about your surgeon for a relatively simple procedure like a gallbladder removal or hernia repair?

How about the ER doctor for a simple issue like sore throat or a more complex issue like a broken bone?

What about the ER doctor for a life threatening event like a heart attack, severe life threatening infection or car wreck? (a real car wreck). Something that requires multiple procedures like chest tubes breathing tubes or spinal taps?

I'm not talking about the total cost of care. Just the payment for the doctor.

I'm just curious what people would honestly think these services are worth if you were paying them out of pocket. Before you answer think about how much you pay your plumber or your mechanic or even the guy who mows your lawn. Or more appropriately, your accountant to do your taxes or your attorney to write your will. Defend you in court.

This may be educational both for me and for you.

When I see a few answers I'll share some other thoughts, if there is interest.

Let's see.....I was an automotive mechanic several years back, and I was making about $20 per hour or so. Currently, a good dealership mechanic probably makes $30 (the dealership makes more, but the guy twisting wrenches doesn't - unless he's a tits wrench) I had to be able to troubleshoot, diagnose, repair, and then guarantee my work on maybe 40-50 completely different models with completely different issues - with new changes in technology and engineering every single day - making last year's diagnostic tools worthless.

An ER doc has to troubleshoot a human (which hasn't changed in brazillions of years) and to their credit, they do have to troubleshoot the whole model (unlike a specialist who gets to focus on the bung hole or feet or eyes or skin or vagina or heart or gut or something). They do have to keep up with diagnostic technology, but they just usually have a radiologist, or a hematologist, or a serumologist, or an LPN or RN do all the diagnostic **** for them, then they proclaim a diagnosis/care plan/prognosis. Roughly 25%+ of the time they're dead wrong, and that's OK, cause they'll figure it out next time after you spend a ****pot more money for some further testing, and they've written you a half-dozen more prescriptions for **** that ain't even wrong with you.

Based on all that, a decent ER doc oughta make somewhere around $40-$50 per hour, which would = roughly $95K a year or so.

[Chuck Bao]

Let's see.....I was an automotive mechanic several years back, and I was making about $20 per hour or so. Currently, a good dealership mechanic probably makes $30 (the dealership makes more, but the guy twisting wrenches doesn't - unless he's a tits wrench) I had to be able to troubleshoot, diagnose, repair, and then guarantee my work on maybe 40-50 completely different models with completely different issues - with new changes in technology and engineering every single day - making last year's diagnostic tools worthless.

An ER doc has to troubleshoot a human (which hasn't changed in brazillions of years) and to their credit, they do have to troubleshoot the whole model (unlike a specialist who gets to focus on the bung hole or feet or eyes or skin or vagina or heart or gut or something). They do have to keep up with diagnostic technology, but they just usually have a radiologist, or a hematologist, or a serumologist, or an LPN or RN do all the diagnostic **** for them, then they proclaim a diagnosis/care plan/prognosis. Roughly 25%+ of the time they're dead wrong, and that's OK, cause they'll figure it out next time after you spend a ****pot more money for some further testing, and they've written you a half-dozen more prescriptions for **** that ain't even wrong with you.

Based on all that, a decent ER doc oughta make somewhere around $40-$50 per hour, which would = roughly $95K a year or so.

I have no answer to that. But, I can tell you about Thailand.

My doctor fee is miniscule, possibly about 1% of my monthly salary.

My medicine works out to 20% of my monthly salary.

It's freaking unbelieveable. Two months of medicine is as cheap as one month. For some reason, they offer discount on bulk sales. So, the doctor and I agreed that we would be be buying two months after each monthly blood test when I need it and naught if I don't. If he changes the prescription, then I lose that. But, it still ends up a good deal for me.

Why the hell do they do that?

Talk about inefficiencies.

[C&CDean]

I have no answer to that. But, I can tell you about Thailand.

My doctor fee is miniscule, possibly about 1% of my monthly salary.

My medicine works out to 20% of my monthly salary.

It's freaking unbelieveable. Two months of medicine is as cheap as one month. For some reason, they offer discount on bulk sales. So, the doctor and I agreed that we would be be buying two months after each monthly blood test when I need it and naught if I don't. If he changes the prescription, then I lose that. But, it still ends up a good deal for me.

Why the hell do they do that?

Talk about inefficiencies.


20% for meds? WTF are you taking?

[AggieTool]

Let's see.....I was an automotive mechanic several years back, and I was making about $20 per hour or so. Currently, a good dealership mechanic probably makes $30 (the dealership makes more, but the guy twisting wrenches doesn't - unless he's a tits wrench) I had to be able to troubleshoot, diagnose, repair, and then guarantee my work on maybe 40-50 completely different models with completely different issues - with new changes in technology and engineering every single day - making last year's diagnostic tools worthless.

An ER doc has to troubleshoot a human (which hasn't changed in brazillions of years) and to their credit, they do have to troubleshoot the whole model (unlike a specialist who gets to focus on the bung hole or feet or eyes or skin or vagina or heart or gut or something). They do have to keep up with diagnostic technology, but they just usually have a radiologist, or a hematologist, or a serumologist, or an LPN or RN do all the diagnostic **** for them, then they proclaim a diagnosis/care plan/prognosis. Roughly 25%+ of the time they're dead wrong, and that's OK, cause they'll figure it out next time after you spend a ****pot more money for some further testing, and they've written you a half-dozen more prescriptions for **** that ain't even wrong with you.

Based on all that, a decent ER doc oughta make somewhere around $40-$50 per hour, which would = roughly $95K a year or so.

Don't forget that a good mechanic must at least "gradumate" from middle school, and get an C+ in auto shop before starting their own practice as "Bubba's Tire and Brakes":D

Now what kinda 'schoolin requirements do think there are for a physician?;)

I just have to mention that I've never met a doctor named "Skeeter".:D

[AggieTool]

I have no answer to that. But, I can tell you about Thailand.

My doctor fee is miniscule, possibly about 1% of my monthly salary.

My medicine works out to 20% of my monthly salary.

It's freaking unbelieveable. Two months of medicine is as cheap as one month. For some reason, they offer discount on bulk sales. So, the doctor and I agreed that we would be be buying two months after each monthly blood test when I need it and naught if I don't. If he changes the prescription, then I lose that. But, it still ends up a good deal for me.

Why the hell do they do that?

Talk about inefficiencies.

Yeah but you can catch way more diseases in Thailand than they could ever cure.:D

[C&CDean]

Don't forget that a good mechanic must at least "gradumate" from middle school, and get an C+ in auto shop before starting their own practice as "Bubba's Tire and Brakes":D

Now what kinda 'schoolin requirements do think there are for a physician?;)

I just have to mention that I've never met a doctor named "Skeeter".:D

Oh. So now it's my responsibility to pay off 12 years of schoolin' for a doctor?

[StoopTroup]

Yeah but you can catch way more diseases in Thailand than they could ever cure.:D

Especially weak little aggies. They'd probably die off quick if they didn't procreate with the farm animals over there.

[AggieTool]

Oh. So now it's my responsibility to pay off 12 years of schoolin' for a doctor?

Well here's your choices I figger....

#1. You could force people to go to medical school free of charge, in which case their effort and retention would be questionable.

#2. The govt could subsidize the cost of medical school, and pass it along to us. In which case the student has no skin in the game.

#3. Those with a passion for healing (and research) could make their way through school like the rest of us. With grants, loans, and part time jobs.

Option three means you'll have dedicated professionals that will recoup the cost of their skill and training by providing a service WE NEED.

[AggieTool]

Especially weak little aggies. They'd probably die off quick if they didn't procreate with the farm animals over there.

You've obviously never been to Thailand.:(

[StoopTroup]

I say we just train us some monkeys that can do what most Doctors are doing and then get some really good office staff to file insurance claims.

[NYC Poke]

#2. The govt could subsidize the cost of medical school, and pass it along to us. In which case the student has no skin in the game.


It already does that. There are many public universities with medical schools, and the gov't subsidizes private universities through student loans, tax deductions for donations, and other means.

[AggieTool]

It already does that. There are many public universities with medical schools, and the gov't subsidizes private universities through student loans, tax deductions for donations, and other means.

Yeah I know, but for middle class bubbas like me, I'd have to pay outa pocket prolly.

[OU_Sooners75]

Yeah, because our genes have changed so much in the last 20-30 years that we should see a huge jump in diabetes because of it.
Dude, you're wrong, deal with it.

Then care to tell me the reason behind my cousin having diabetes at the age of 28. She is not fat or overweight by any stretch of the imagination. Unless of course you call a 5'10" woman that weighs right around 130-135 pounds fat and overweight.

She was a soccer player in college. She has had 2 children. She execerised daily (from what she says), She does not eat sweets, fast food, or the like...and she came down with Type 2 Diabetes at the age of 27.

So yeah...being overweight and fat can lead to diabetes, but that is only a risk factor....not all fat and overweight people come down with type 2 diabetes. And not all in shape non-overweight or fat people can contract the disease too.

I will not stoop to a level of saying you are wrong....but you are not entirely correct in your assumption.

I agree, eating unhealthy and being overweight and just living that lifestyle enhances your chances to get diabetes, but it is not automatic either.

[BornandBred]

It wasn't the government that got us into the housing mess. It was the greed of private enterprise - the banks and investment bankers.

Actually, it was. Check out ACORN wrt Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack. It was a case of privatized gains and socialized losses with risky lending habits being pushed by the government. That, combined with lack of govn't oversight.

[StoopTroup]

When I say monkeys...I mean some really smart ones...not those kind that throw poo at you.

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[OU_Sooners75]

Interesting thread. I'm an ER doc. I see and live these issues daily. I have a perspective on this stuff I would like to share but first a quick survey. Just answer honestly.

How much do you think a fair payment to your doctor is to see him in the office for a routine visit? Well, I just paid the doctor $84.00 for a physical. That is ****ing outrageous! And this was just for the visit. I was there for a total of an hour...but 25 minutes of that time was waiting in the lobby. about 10 minutes of it was the actual physical...and the other 20 minutes was waiting for the doctor in the room and/or filling out paperwork. $84.00 for 10 minutes...if my math is correct, that is a total of $504.00/hour!

How about your surgeon for a relatively simple procedure like a gallbladder removal or hernia repair? Never had that surgery. But I know my appendectomy cost me $10,000 (doctor charge) 12 years ago. That is a little outrageous. This was about a 45 minute procedure they said. $10,000 in 45 minutes? If my math is correct that is a little over $13,333.00/hour!

How about the ER doctor for a simple issue like sore throat or a more complex issue like a broken bone? Well, a sore throat should cost what it would in a doctors office visit. But a broken bone...which is rather routine should not cost me $3,500 (doctor charge) like it did just a liitle over a month ago when my daughter broke her leg..

What about the ER doctor for a life threatening event like a heart attack, severe life threatening infection or car wreck? (a real car wreck). Something that requires multiple procedures like chest tubes breathing tubes or spinal taps? The patient's life!

I'm not talking about the total cost of care. Just the payment for the doctor.

I'm just curious what people would honestly think these services are worth if you were paying them out of pocket. Before you answer think about how much you pay your plumber or your mechanic or even the guy who mows your lawn. Or more appropriately, your accountant to do your taxes or your attorney to write your will. Defend you in court.

This may be educational both for me and for you.

When I see a few answers I'll share some other thoughts, if there is interest.

One thing I do know...the cost for anaesthesia, 2 days in the hospital, and drugs/presciptions afterwards are all getting out of hand.

My Appendectomy Bill was worth a grand total ove $25,000. And that was just 12 years ago. I can only imagine what it would cost now. Thank god for insurance!

So with numbers I gave you about my surgeon and my in office visit....

I have never hired a plumber or mechanic, or even an attorney that cost me that much money per hour!

[OklahomaTuba]

Why can't we just do this from state to state? Let the states compete on this.

Insure Oklahoma seems like a great program BTW. I was happy to hear it was expanding.

[OU_Sooners75]

Why can't we just do this from state to state? Let the states compete on this.

Insure Oklahoma seems like a great program BTW. I was happy to hear it was expanding.


Pay Tention....

All the states are needing federal money nowadays. Hell they cannot even make their budgets! :D

[batonrougesooner]

Interesting responses so far.

I'm interested in learning what value people place on the services provided. So far it's been a buck fifty :) and about 50 bucks per hour. I'm curious if you could truly set the market price, what would that market price be?

I for one don't think $84 for an annual physical is unreasonable at all. You can't extrapolate that into a per hour rate because they aren't doing ten per hour. Out of that $84, how much is the doc actually taking home? Maybe $25-30 after overhead and other expenses.

I guarantee you your surgeon isn't getting $10,000 for an appendectomy. Not even 5% of that.

[OU_Sooners75]

Interesting responses so far.

I'm interested in learning what value people place on the services provided. So far it's been a buck fifty :) and about 50 bucks per hour. I'm curious if you could truly set the market price, what would that market price be?

I for one don't think $84 for an annual physical is unreasonable at all. You can't extrapolate that into a per hour rate because they aren't doing ten per hour. Out of that $84, how much is the doc actually taking home? Maybe $25-30 after overhead and other expenses.

I guarantee you your surgeon isn't getting $10,000 for an appendectomy. Not even 5% of that.

If I had the bill with me still, I would prove you are wrong. Well, of course I did not have to pay it all, thanks to co-pay insurance...but that is what the bill stated. How much he got from the insurance company...I do not know. But my co-pay was $750. Which was above 5% of that $10,000.

Well, in office, since they have office personel and crap...

I would say a visit to the doctor should not be measured by the hour...I know...little contradictory...It should be set at a per vist price. I would say $50-$75 for the visit. Of course add on for lab work or whatever else needs to be done away from the doctor.

But as far as surgery goes. $13,000/hour is a little freaking steep. Why should I have to pay a surgeon $10,000 (the cost if I did not have insurance) for taking a piece of my body that has no real function whatsoever out of me because it is swelling and could burst? Sorry, but for $10,000 I could buy about 34 sets of OU Football Season Tickets!

[OklahomaTuba]

or about half of T. Boone Pickens Cowboy Stadium.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

My health care is already free...Thanks Whitey!

[batonrougesooner]

The problem is that that bill is facticious. This is where the insurance company screws everybody. And it is an insurance company issue. The hospitals and physicians and insurance companies have gotten into this cat and mouse game over the years that has resulted in hyperinflation of bills so they can be "discounted" by the insurers. It is completely illogical. No surgeon is ever expecting nor will he ever be compensated that much for an appendectomy despite what the bill says. Think about those numbers for a second. They are not real nor could they be. I would say roughly the total compensation provided to your surgeon was in the neighborhood of $300 for the surgery and most likely follow up care. All costs included to the anesthesiologist, hospital and their expenses, medications etc was probably $4500 to your insurance company. Alot less than $25k!

[OU_Sooners75]

The problem is that that bill is facticious. This is where the insurance company screws everybody. And it is an insurance company issue. The hospitals and physicians and insurance companies have gotten into this cat and mouse game over the years that has resulted in hyperinflation of bills so they can be "discounted" by the insurers. It is completely illogical. No surgeon is ever expecting nor will he ever be compensated that much for an appendectomy despite what the bill says. Think about those numbers for a second. They are not real nor could they be. I would say roughly the total compensation provided to your surgeon was in the neighborhood of $300 for the surgery and most likely follow up care. All costs included to the anesthesiologist, hospital and their expenses, medications etc was probably $4500 to your insurance company. Alot less than $25k!

So the insurance company skammed me? Is that what you are saying? And if they did...then why did they use the letterhead from the surgeon's office and the hospital to do it?

All I had to pay toward the bill was $750. Not the full amount. So it does not matter to me. The bill is paid for as far as I know.

[yermom]

the doctors overcharge so the insurance can companies get a volume deal. where someone paying out of pocket gets screwed.

[batonrougesooner]

It's not that simple. There are complicated contracts involved which typically have language that "You (the doctor) will not charge company X more than you have contracted with company Y for the same procedure" or "You are will only charge X% of medicare rates or the prevailing rate for the same procedure in the same geographic location" and other such nonsense. There is no transparency and that is by design and it begins and ends with the insurance company. So what ends up happening is that your "charges" become some astronomical figure that everybody negotiates down from. Nobody, primarily insurers, wants to pay sticker price. Keep in mind how insurance companies make money. It isn't by providing a service. It's by charging you as much as they can an paying doctors as little as they can get away with. The rest is their profit. Just what exactly did they do to create that profit. They don't really provide a service or create a product people want to buy. Where do they get the money to pay the CEO of United Healthcare over $20 million per year? They got it from you.

[yermom]

right, but i can't negotiate. i have to take it in the pants if i wanted to pay out of pocket

[batonrougesooner]

But you can negotiate. I can't speak for everybody but I guarantee you that if you were to get a bill from my group and you had no insurance, we would either work out a payment plan or reduce the fee or both. You have to understand that our hands are tied for what we can "charge" a patient due to other restrictive insurance contracts. Contracts that we are essentially forced into by our hosptials. Half of something is better than all of nothing. Despite what many think I'm sure, we are not interested in fleecing people or causing a financial hardship for our patients.

Here comes a **** storm no doubt...

[yermom]

but how does that show up on one's credit?

i'm not trying to take a shot at doctors, just the way the industry seems to be.

i have never not had insurance, and i think i have paid 2-3 copays in my adult life

[batonrougesooner]

I think the key to keeping it off your credit would be to make these arraingments before the bill is overdue. Some people are much more aggressive than others in collections.

[AlbqSooner]

The problem is that that bill is facticious. This is where the insurance company screws everybody. And it is an insurance company issue. The hospitals and physicians and insurance companies have gotten into this cat and mouse game over the years that has resulted in hyperinflation of bills so they can be "discounted" by the insurers. It is completely illogical. No surgeon is ever expecting nor will he ever be compensated that much for an appendectomy despite what the bill says. Think about those numbers for a second. They are not real nor could they be. I would say roughly the total compensation provided to your surgeon was in the neighborhood of $300 for the surgery and most likely follow up care. All costs included to the anesthesiologist, hospital and their expenses, medications etc was probably $4500 to your insurance company. Alot less than $25k!

See my post on page 11. This is precisely what I am griping about. Not the health care providers. The payment to the Doctor is a hell of a lot less than the bill from the Doctor. If they want to be a provider for Acme Health Insurance, they have to abide by the Acme Health Insurance contract terms. It is the uninsured guy that ends up getting screwed with high cost medical care. It results, not from the medical professionals, but from the insurance industry.

Go into any major city in the U.S. and you will see that at least one of the largest buildings in town is home to an insurance company. That is because they can afford it.

[StoopTroup]

Also....bananas are good for ya.

Even a monkey could tell ya that.

[RFH Shakes]

How it is now, with grocery costs and everything rising...when I redo my budget next month, I will have to cut some expenditures...and the first thing to go will be the health insurance.


A couple questions. 1) How many TV's do you own, how much a month do you pay for cable, cell phones, etc...

I am not picking on you personally, just trying to put a point out there. Most people say that they can't afford health insurance but what they mean is they don't want to give anything else up to cover the cost of health insurance.

[StoopTroup]

Well yeah.

I have to have my Dancing with the Stars.

[NYC Poke]

This is a serious question, and one not slanted in any way. I'm not an advocate of universal healthcare, I simply view it as inevitable for reasons previously stated.

Aren't we all kinda sorta subsidizing each other's healthcare already? The poor and elderly get direct assistance from the government, but our system of private insurance means we're all spreading and sharing costs of healthcare with other insureds. Not only that, the costs of employer-provided insurance is reflected in the higher costs of the goods and services we purchase. We're essentially paying for each other's healthcare already. Why not just cut out the insurance companies?

[soonersis]

But you can negotiate. I can't speak for everybody but I guarantee you that if you were to get a bill from my group and you had no insurance, we would either work out a payment plan or reduce the fee or both. You have to understand that our hands are tied for what we can "charge" a patient due to other restrictive insurance contracts. Contracts that we are essentially forced into by our hosptials. Half of something is better than all of nothing. Despite what many think I'm sure, we are not interested in fleecing people or causing a financial hardship for our patients.

Here comes a **** storm no doubt...

This is what I have been saying all along. Just call the damn number on the bill and negotiate! Don't ever flat out say you can't pay it and you won't because that won't help your cause. Just try and most practices/doctors will reduce the fees. And yes, there are some docs out there that are more aggressive in collections, so that is why it is important to call on the first bill your receive.

[StoopTroup]

Because the Insurance Companies are the backbone of America and without them we will all surely perish from the face of the Earth.

Also...the folks who have made untold fortunes under the current system will need to figure out how to continue raping us all.

[OU_Sooners75]

A couple questions. 1) How many TV's do you own, how much a month do you pay for cable, cell phones, etc...

I am not picking on you personally, just trying to put a point out there. Most people say that they can't afford health insurance but what they mean is they don't want to give anything else up to cover the cost of health insurance.

Let me put it this way.

I own one tv. It is hooked up to a very very basic cable, since I really do not watch a lot of it until late August, and then only on Saturdays. However, my kids to watch TV when they first wake up on the weekends and if it is crappy outside.

I do not have a cell phone, olevet can attest to that. The only communication I have is the internet.

I spend $500/month in rent. $450/month Car insurance and car payment. Approx. $300/month in utilities (Gas, Water, Sewage, trash, electric, cable&internet).

I spend approx. $300/month on groceries and stuff my kids need, not want, just need.

Then I spend $600/month on health insurance so I can afford to pay medical bills when my kids get sick. Sad thing is, I do not use it but maybe 3 or 4 times a year, outside of the routine dental visits.

Add it up. 500+450+300+300+600= $2150/month on what I need to survive with only $50/month extra.


Yeah....I think I will take my chances and save that $600/month.

[Veritas]

..$450/month Car insurance and car payment...
That's ridiculous. Get rid of that thing.

[yermom]

$450 a month?

that's likely a ~$20k loan, right?

that doesn't sound all that unreasonable. there is something to having a new car that you can rely on.

dropping health insurance sounds like a good idea until you need it once. unless you've been saving that $600 a month for a while, you are kinda up a creek, most likely

[OU_Sooners75]

That's ridiculous. Get rid of that thing.

That is combined with insurance car payment, what I set back for gas...etc.

And hell no I will not get rid of it. I have just 6 more months and the lien is gone! :D

[OU_Sooners75]

$450 a month?

that's likely a ~$20k loan, right?

that doesn't sound all that unreasonable. there is something to having a new car that you can rely on.

dropping health insurance sounds like a good idea until you need it once. unless you've been saving that $600 a month for a while, you are kinda up a creek, most likely


After taxes and interest rate it was right around 21K.

[NYC Poke]

dropping health insurance sounds like a good idea until you need it once.


Especially when you have kids. They'll hurt themselves sooner or later.

[olevetonahill]

Im the youngest of 5 kids
My folks dint have med Ins.
Being the Baby I only remember 1 time the ER thingy was used .
I had to have an emergency appendectomy at the tender age of 10
Dad Paid for it :rolleyes:

[C&CDean]

I was born in a military hospital. I only went to military hospitals as a kid, and then joined the military when I was 17. After getting out, I only went to the VA hospital - until my wife convinced me that since I was paying for insurance for her and the kids I probably oughta use it.

Moral of the story? Join the military, spend your time, and then be covered for life.

[olevetonahill]

^ yup

[JohnnyMack]

I was born in a military hospital.

It's true! Here's a pic taken not long after Dean was born:

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-americanhistory/Civil%20War%20Hospital,%201865.jpg