Interesting Read on Reagan...

[yermom]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/01/shifts/index.html


Ronald Reagan, May 20, 1988, transmitting the Convention Against Torture to the Senate for ratification:

The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction." Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.


that along with this: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/torture-opinion-religious-differences (also linked in the salon article) kinda makes me scratch my head

[mdklatt]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/01/shifts/index.html



that along with this: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/torture-opinion-religious-differences (also linked in the salon article) kinda makes me scratch my head

I thought the official excuse is that we what did wasn't really torture. Or if it was, it was okay because we only tortured "illegal combatants". And if they weren't illegal combatants, it was still okay because it produced useful information that saved lives. Or at least useful information that could have saved lives if we hadn't already gotten that information through legitimate interrogation. Or even if none of that is true, they probably deserved it anyway.

The human mind has an endless capacity for justification.

[yermom]

yeah, except that we hanged Japanese soldiers after WWII for doing what we have admitted to recently doing

[mdklatt]

yeah, except that we hanged Japanese soldiers after WWII for doing what we have admitted to recently doing

But that's because they didn't do it to terrorists. Or least suspected terrorists. Or at least people in Guanatanamo, who we all know wouldn't be there if they weren't suspected terrorists, because we don't make mistakes. Ever.

[Turd_Ferguson]

But that's because they didn't do it to terrorists. Or least suspected terrorists. Or at least people in Guanatanamo, who we all know wouldn't be there if they weren't suspected terrorists, because we don't make mistakes. Ever.spot on brother...spot on!

[mdklatt]

spot on brother...spot on!

You know I was being sarcastic, right?

[KC//CRIMSON]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful

WASHINGTON (CNN) The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small. See results of the survey »

The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"


Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.

The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/9/93/Buddy_christ.jpg

Torture: If it's good enough for christ, it's good enough for you!

[Turd_Ferguson]

You know I was being sarcastic, right?sarcastic? Is that the same as smartass:confused:

[picasso]

yeah, except that we hanged Japanese soldiers after WWII for doing what we have admitted to recently doing

I thought they were actually drowning folks. Ever read much about the Bataan march or the rape of Nanking?

[Vaevictis]

I thought they were actually drowning folks. Ever read much about the Bataan march or the rape of Nanking?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

[Sooner04]

yeah, except that we hanged Japanese soldiers after WWII for doing what we have admitted to recently doing
I'm not the most learned soul on the goings-on of WWII, but **** the Japanese. Warriors through and through back then, but **** those bastards. Awful, awful people populated those islands back then.

We could commit ten atrocities an hour from now until 2050 and not come close to some of the horrificness those monsters pulled off all over the Pacific.

[yermom]

I thought they were actually drowning folks. Ever read much about the Bataan march or the rape of Nanking?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml

McCain sees it like i do


I'm not the most learned soul on the goings-on of WWII, but **** the Japanese. Warriors through and through back then, but **** those bastards. Awful, awful people populated those islands back then.

We could commit ten atrocities an hour from now until 2050 and not come close to some of the horrificness those monsters pulled off all over the Pacific.


it's not a competition

[Frozen Sooner]

it's not a competition

Saturday nights must be boring at YOUR house.

[picasso]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml

McCain sees it like i do




it's not a competition

let's be honest here Yermom. There is absolutely no comparison between our human rights record and that of Japan.
Yes, we've done some things but how shall we define torture? Making someone think they are drowning, sleep deprivation and constant loud rock music is quite different than starving someone, tying them in a knot until their limbs pop out of joint and beheading prisoners.
Did you ever wonder why so many German soldiers gladly gave up their arms to us rather than Ivan?

Also. I'd like to see what specific questions were asked of these crazy Christians in KC's link. I have about 40 people in my life group at my church and I'd dare say very few of them (if any)would approve of heinous torture.
Let's also remember us crazy folks who congregate on Sunday are also the most charitable with our money and time.

Now, if water boarding would prevent a terrorsit attack on the west coast (like it did). I'd probably be all for it. And you might too if you were the POTUS in a post 9/11 world.

Just my opinion.

Also, McCain is against all torture of any kind. And after reading his book you might know why.

[yermom]

i'm not comparing us to Japan. i'm saying that after WWII the US then decided that waterboarding was torture worthy of a death sentence.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Also. I'd like to see what specific questions were asked of these crazy Christians in KC's link.


The actual survey question is in the article.

[JohnnyMack]

I think it's hilarious people are talking about the United States taking the moral highroad here. Our nation has been built on the attempted genocide of an entire race of people and the enslavement of another. Watching the handwringing that's taking place over some harsh interrogation tactics of some **********s who would just as soon shoot you as to look at you amuses me.

[GrapevineSooner]

Also. I'd like to see what specific questions were asked of these crazy Christians in KC's link. I have about 40 people in my life group at my church and I'd dare say very few of them (if any)would approve of heinous torture.
Let's also remember us crazy folks who congregate on Sunday are also the most charitable with our money and time.


The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"

And I can see why many people in this survey would say it's OK.

I don't think too many of us favor torture for the sake of torture. I certainly don't, even if I think a terrorist suspect is an animal.

If it serves a useful purpose (such as possibly preventing an attack on downtown LA), then techniques such as waterboarding and sleep deprivation need to be left on the table.

[picasso]

I think it's hilarious people are talking about the United States taking the moral highroad here. Our nation has been built on the attempted genocide of an entire race of people and the enslavement of another. Watching the handwringing that's taking place over some harsh interrogation tactics of some **********s who would just as soon shoot you as to look at you amuses me.

good lord man. we're talking about recent times here. Please don't even attempt to lecture me of our atrocities regarding native peoples. That history is undisputed.

[picasso]

The actual survey question is in the article.

I saw it and it was swept with a broad brush.

Let's get specific.

And balls to the wall I'd be interested in seeing what you guys would do. There's a real world out there that goes beyond ideology.

[yermom]

And I can see why many people in this survey would say it's OK.

I don't think too many of us favor torture for the sake of torture. I certainly don't, even if I think a terrorist suspect is an animal.

If it serves a useful purpose (such as possibly preventing an attack on downtown LA), then techniques such as waterboarding and sleep deprivation need to be left on the table.

that lie about the LA plot really had some legs

http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/


A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.

[JohnnyMack]

good lord man. we're talking about recent times here. Please don't even attempt to lecture me of our atrocities regarding native peoples. That history is undisputed.

That was kinda my point.

[Veritas]

And balls to the wall I'd be interested in seeing what you guys would do. There's a real world out there that goes beyond ideology.
Bingo. It's pretty easy to be sanctimonious about something that's just an abstraction to most of us.

[Okla-homey]

I think it's hilarious people are talking about the United States taking the moral highroad here. Our nation has been built on the attempted genocide of an entire race of people and the enslavement of another. Watching the handwringing that's taking place over some harsh interrogation tactics of some **********s who would just as soon shoot you as to look at you amuses me.

Fair enough as to our history, but, we have evolved. We are not the same people we once were. Our southwest asian antagonists however, have not evolved. That, my friend, makes all the difference.

And, for the record, let's be honest, much of the hand-wringing is politically motivated. Frankly, if those bastages hit us again on O's watch, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth over water-boarding, sleep deprivation and putting guys who hate bugs in boxes with caterpillars will disappear like Ruf-Nek shotgun smoke on a windy day on Owen Field.

Heck, Yours Truly is claustrophobic. Does that mean if I ever got sent to the hoosegow I'd be entitled to a bigger cell?

[yermom]

politically motivated?

McCain and Reagan made their positions on torture pretty clear. was that to support Obama?

[Okla-homey]

politically motivated?

McCain and Reagan made their positions on torture pretty clear. was that to support Obama?

McCain is not calling for indictments and RR is dead.

This is about "paybacks" and you know it.

[Vaevictis]

And balls to the wall I'd be interested in seeing what you guys would do. There's a real world out there that goes beyond ideology.

It's really simple for me.

(1) There are cases where I would torture.
(2) I should have to justify it to a jury. They can nullify if they think it was justified.

In no way, shape, or form should our government sanction this kind of activity under the law. It's something you should always have to face a jury for. Period.

And it's not about paybacks for me. It's about adhering to the above principle. This thing should always be against the law, and you should have to face a jury if you get caught. Like I said, if it was truly justified, the jury has the power to nullify.

[JohnnyMack]

If I was President during 09/11 I would have gone Harry Truman on these people in the first place and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[picasso]

That was kinda my point.

well what are we talking about here Johnny? every nation has a sordid past like that. Are we talking about WWII and modern Bushie torture or Custer riding roughshod over the Cheyenne in southeastern Colorado?

This country isn't really that old and I'd dare say we're better than most. Let's just say I'd rather be in a U.S. jail. Fair enough?

[picasso]

McCain is not calling for indictments and RR is dead.

This is about "paybacks" and you know it.

yes and isn't it funny how some of those now in charge have no definite memory to the extent of their knowing of said torture.:rolleyes:

[olevetonahill]

Sounds Like Most are all for the "War Dance "
But most aint got the balls to take the scalp .;)

[JohnnyMack]

well what are we talking about here Johnny? every nation has a sordid past like that. Are we talking about WWII and modern Bushie torture or Custer riding roughshod over the Cheyenne in southeastern Colorado?

This country isn't really that old and I'd dare say we're better than most. Let's just say I'd rather be in a U.S. jail. Fair enough?

I'll just say again that I think it's amusing that people are upset that these turds were waterboarded.

[yermom]

it's amusing that we broke international laws that we helped establish 20 years ago?

we aren't just talking about waterboarding anyway. they just beat a couple of dudes to death. at least one of them was just in the wrong place at the wrong time

[Turd_Ferguson]

it's amusing that we broke international laws that we helped establish 20 years ago?

we aren't just talking about waterboarding anyway. they just beat a couple of dudes to death. at least one of them was just in the wrong place at the wrong timeDon't you love your country:confused:

[Okla-homey]

This thing should always be against the law, and you should have to face a jury if you get caught. Like I said, if it was truly justified, the jury has the power to nullify.

Quick, let's find these 1st Cav troopers from 1968 outside Danang waterboarding this captured VC as appearing in this contemporary Washington Post front page photo. Let's make sure we include everyone in the LBJ administration who approved of it too.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6130/zzzzzph2006100500898.jpg

And while we're on the subject of Vietnam, let's insist the international community bring indictments against the perpetrators of the countless acts of torture committed against American POW's while in North Vietnamese captivity.

[101sooner]

There it is.

What was the life expectancy of a U.S. Enlisted soldier captured by the VC?

What is the life expectancy of any US Soldier captured by Al Qaeda?

Answer to both:

Zero. They were/are REALLY tortured and killed. Dismembered, burnt, fingernails pulled, beheaded. In Vietnam, some officers were REALLY tortured but kept alive.

What was the fate of captured VC? Some of them have died of natural causes, most are still alive. What is the fate of captured Al Qaeda? We don't know, they're still alive. I know that there are rare exceptions, but the worst they would/will face was "simulated drowning".

This thing is about political paybacks. It's going to backfire.

[JohnnyMack]

it's amusing that we broke international laws that we helped establish 20 years ago?

we aren't just talking about waterboarding anyway. they just beat a couple of dudes to death. at least one of them was just in the wrong place at the wrong time

You sleep safe in your beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do you harm.

George Orwell

[Okla-homey]

These cats we're holding aren't choir boys.

Back in the day, during the winter of '01-'02, Yours Truly was in Kandahar. Our cantonment was next door to the holding area where the recently captured Al-Q and Taliban captives were held. This was before the camp at Gitmo was established.

I may have shared this before, but, it bears repeating. On one fine day, this would have been in Jan. '02, a team of I'ntl Red Cross officials flew in to check on these captives, whereupon their findings would be included in a comprehensive report for transmittal to Geneva.

The IRC guys insisted on private interviews with captives because, as you can imagine, that's normally better since captives are naturally more forthcoming about dishing on the guards, interrogators and conditions in the camp if they need not fear retaliation from the American guards who might otherwise overhear the captives' complaints and rough them up later.

They also wanted them unbound during the interviews. Afterall, Mohammed had no beef with the guys who were there only to look out for them right?

Well sir, the MP's running the place complied of course. Directly, one hard case, once safely in the private interview room with only the Red Cross official, grabbed the official's pen he had been using to take notes and stabbed him in the neck with it. Repeatedly. Like Joe Pesci's character did in that bar scene in "Goodfellas."

They guy lived, because his cries brought the guards who were just outside. After that, they backed-off on insisting on private interviews and thereafter, the camp policy required the captive to be hand-cuffed and any written notes by captive interviewers to be taken with those short wooden golf pencils provided by the camp. No foolin'.

[OKC-SLC]

choir boys, indeed.

[yermom]

Quick, let's find these 1st Cav troopers from 1968 outside Danang waterboarding this captured VC as appearing in this contemporary Washington Post front page photo. Let's make sure we include everyone in the LBJ administration who approved of it too.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6130/zzzzzph2006100500898.jpg

And while we're on the subject of Vietnam, let's insist the international community bring indictments against the perpetrators of the countless acts of torture committed against American POW's while in North Vietnamese captivity.

was LBJ's administration dumb enough to try and justify it at the highest levels?

one of these days "we're the good guys" isn't going to fly anymore

[JohnnyMack]

These are people who strapped bombs to the chests of mentally retarded women and sent them into marketplaces where said bombs were detonated. Underestimate them at your own risk.

[yermom]

who is underestimating them?

if someone is a terrorist, that's one thing. but where does it stop if all it takes is to be labelled "terrorist" to be locked up, tortured and never released from one of these places?

it would be pretty easy to start fingering your political enemies

i don't get how the habeas corpus/anti-torture position translates to "pro terrorist"

[Okla-homey]

i don't get how the habeas corpus/anti-torture position translates to "pro terrorist"

Let me see. If you don't accept the position that the writ of habeas corpus, indeed "the most sacred writ" under our Constitution, applies to persons captured while under arms on a foreign battlefield deployed in opposition to the armed forces of the United States and detained for the duration of hostilities pursuant to the Geneva Protocols, or, that sleep deprivation, waterboarding and exposure to yucky things in the form of the introduction of harmless insects to the enclosure of a person who hates bugs constitute torture. If that's your point of view, then your view generally would be that persons who disagree are "pro terrorist." Just saying.

[yermom]

as far as i can tell the only people taking that stance are Bush apologists

[JohnnyMack]

who is underestimating them?

if someone is a terrorist, that's one thing. but where does it stop if all it takes is to be labelled "terrorist" to be locked up, tortured and never released from one of these places?

it would be pretty easy to start fingering your political enemies

i don't get how the habeas corpus/anti-torture position translates to "pro terrorist"

Regardless of the "why" 09/11 happened, which is a whole other can of worms, the fact remains it did happen. At that point these people and those who associated with them, harbored them or aided them became in my mind public enemy No. 1. Now I'm far from the Lee Greenwood, flag waving, apple pie eating crowd, but I do believe that anyone responsible for anything to do with that attack is fair game. If a few people who may or may not be terrorists by definition but were associating with those people get caught up in the mix and roughed up a bit I say, who ****ing cares? Some times hard choices have to be made and bad things happen to people who may or may not have deserved it.

All that being said, I think the moral high road is something we should all aspire towards. In fact I believe that pacifism is the ultimate evolutionary step of man, but let's not forget that evil does exist in many forms in this world and unless you're willing to die in order to stand up defending that ideal, maybe a little pragmatism is in order.

And speaking of "fingering your political enemies", you know I'm no fan of W or his administration, but I'm at least smart enough to see that this stinks of political retribution.

[yermom]

pacifism?

[Okla-homey]

as far as i can tell the only people taking that stance are Bush apologists

I'm not a W apologist per se, just a guy who was unlucky enough to have been deployed to that craphole and who has a first-hand appreciation for just how ruthless, depraved and dastardly those cats really are.

In retrospect, we should have squeezed them for all we could get the first 36 hours and then turned them over to the guys of the NYFD. Preposterous of course, but I can dream can't I?

In all likelihood, all this politically-motivated witchhunting is going to do is help insure we take no prisoners in future operations. I bet 8 out of 10 detainees would agree its better to be locked-up, well fed, safely housed, given medical attention, and asked questions regarding one's co-jihaadis than be shot in the face. But then again, maybe not. The latter is a faster route to the 72 virgins and martyrdom, etc.

[yermom]

so are they getting medical care, or are they getting well-deserved torture? which is it?

[Okla-homey]

so are they getting medical care, or are they getting well-deserved torture? which is it?

They are being treated better than they deserve. period.

But it's okay, they are only about 60 miles from Islamabad now. With any luck and Allah-willing, they'll be nuclear-armed by the end of the year. If that happens, this witchhunt will become less enticing.

[yermom]

yeah, because that's so much better than someone being accountable for their crimes

[101sooner]

so are they getting medical care, or are they getting well-deserved torture? which is it?



Medical care yes. They are not being tortured.

[Vaevictis]

Quick, let's find these 1st Cav troopers from 1968 outside Danang waterboarding this captured VC as appearing in this contemporary Washington Post front page photo. Let's make sure we include everyone in the LBJ administration who approved of it too.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870


Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

And actually, yeah, at the time, everyone who participated in, or approved of, this behavior should have been prosecuted.

As far as going after them now, that was 30 years ago. Kind of pointless, IMO, but I wouldn't object if someone did.

As far as the stuff that's gone on in the past 8 years? Going after them now does have a point: If you're going to do it, expect that there will be consequences.

This is the heart of my reasoning. The only time you should engage in this behavior is when the need is so pressing that you're willing to risk an end to your career and jail time to do it. If you're justified, you can throw yourself on the mercy of your peers, and hopefully, they'll nullify like juries sometimes do.

[Okla-homey]

yeah, because that's so much better than someone being accountable for their crimes

No. 1: alleged crimes.
No. 2: this isn't anywhere near as cut-and-dried and you think it is.

[King Crimson]

the US killed 300,000 people (mostly civilians) in two days at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. all this arguing about levels of torture and moral superiority is crap.

i've seen some of the posters in this thread talk about how great Truman was in the past.....for the making the decision. the "humane killing" or saving lives by dropping the bomb argument is a slippery slope.

[Okla-homey]

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870



And actually, yeah, at the time, everyone who participated in, or approved of, this behavior should have been prosecuted.

As far as going after them now, that was 30 years ago. Kind of pointless, IMO, but I wouldn't object if someone did.

As far as the stuff that's gone on in the past 8 years? Going after them now does have a point: If you're going to do it, expect that there will be consequences.

This is the heart of my reasoning. The only time you should engage in this behavior is when the need is so pressing that you're willing to risk an end to your career and jail time to do it. If you're justified, you can throw yourself on the mercy of your peers, and hopefully, they'll nullify like juries sometimes do.

Chaptering a lowest-level sacrificial lamb out of the Army is not the same thing as putting administration officials in jail.

In that sense, mightn't the Left just be happy Lyndie England and her colleagues are still at Ft. Leavenworth? Seems to me they got slapped down a lot harder by W than the guy in the 1968 photo who was merely handed his walking papers by LBJ.

[King Crimson]

the point is: most of the posters in this thread will bend over backwards to make a nationalist argument and call it justified. based in Christ, Reagan, MTV, America, Wolverines, the founders, the army, whatever.

it's a specious claim. it substitutes the particular for the universal. which IS the definition of ideology for those of you who don't actually know.

[101sooner]

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870



And actually, yeah, at the time, everyone who participated in, or approved of, this behavior should have been prosecuted.

As far as going after them now, that was 30 years ago. Kind of pointless, IMO, but I wouldn't object if someone did.

As far as the stuff that's gone on in the past 8 years? Going after them now does have a point: If you're going to do it, expect that there will be consequences.

This is the heart of my reasoning. The only time you should engage in this behavior is when the need is so pressing that you're willing to risk an end to your career and jail time to do it. If you're justified, you can throw yourself on the mercy of your peers, and hopefully, they'll nullify like juries sometimes do.


What? The VC POW had a bag over his face and a 1st CAV soldier was pouring a canteen of water over his face.

What was there to prosecute?

[Vaevictis]

Chaptering a lowest-level sacrificial lamb out of the Army is not the same thing as putting administration officials in jail.

No, it's not. But, you did facetiously say let's go get these guys -- I was merely pointing out that they did go get this guy. There were consequences.

He was court-martialed, and faced a jury of his peers. This is exactly what I'm advocating. The fact that he got a fairly light punishment is not inconsistent with what I'm advocating -- as I've said, the jury can and should nullify if the situation warranted the behavior.


In that sense, mightn't the Left just be happy Lyndie England and her colleagues are still at Ft. Leavenworth? Seems to me they got slapped down a lot harder than the guy in the 1968 photo who was merely handed his walking papers.

I don't know about "the Left", but as for me -- the Bush administration really screwed the pooch when they publicly provided justification and cover for this kind of behavior. That requires a response and prosecutions. IMO.

If they had had the good sense to keep it under wraps and maintain at least a flimsy pretense of plausible deniability, I'd likely not be saying a word about it today.

The key is that every nation does this sort of thing from time to time. Every single one of them. Most of them have the good sense to pretend they don't. The ones that do it openly? The Soviets. The Chinese. The North Koreans. Iran. Do you really want to be in that company? I don't.

[Vaevictis]

What? The VC POW had a bag over his face and a 1st CAV soldier was pouring a canteen of water over his face.

What was there to prosecute?

Waterboarding was considered torture by the US from something like the 1880's to 2001. And the soldier in the picture was participating in it. He was stupid enough to let a journalist photograph him doing it.

That's what there was to prosecute.

[101sooner]

Waterboarding was considered torture by the US from something like the 1880's to 2001. And the soldier in the picture was participating in it. He was stupid enough to let a journalist photograph him doing it.

That's what there was to prosecute.




Really? In a combat zone in Vietnam that's what you see? A stupid soldier torturing the enemy?

[101sooner]

The Chinese. The North Koreans. Iran. Do you really want to be in that company? I don't.

Do you really think that because we waterboarded some terrorists that we are now in their company?

[C&CDean]

What I've learned from this thread is that some people live in a sheltered fantasyland where reality is lollypops and lemon drops. I pity those people. God help them if they were ever put in a situation that required them to ever man up. And by man up I mean do the right thing. And sometimes, the right thing is to knock the ever lovin' **** outta somebody if it might save some of your buddies lives. But hey, stick to going to college and learning all kinds of sanctimonious self-righteous bull**** and keep running down the people who were put into situations where they have to even think about torturing another human being. I'm sure it'll help you sleep better at night knowing you are better than someone who actually did something to better your world.

[Okla-homey]

Really? In a combat zone in Vietnam that's what you see? A stupid soldier torturing the enemy?

Gosh. I hope he never finds out what GI's did in the field to the German-born but raised in the US guys who left for the Vaterland in the late 1930's and early 1940's to fight for the Reich against their former schoolmates when they surrendered or were captured by US forces.:eek:

[Okla-homey]

the point is: most of the posters in this thread will bend over backwards to make a nationalist argument and call it justified. based in Christ, Reagan, MTV, America, Wolverines, the founders, the army, whatever.

it's a specious claim. it substitutes the particular for the universal. which IS the definition of ideology for those of you who don't actually know.

Guilty as charged. Yep, I'm an ideologue. I believe in the rightness of certain causes and the wrongness of others. And while I believe there are indeed shades of gray, there are also such things as absolute evil and absolute good, which are rarely, if ever, achieved. Nevertheless, they exist as opposite ends of the moral spectrum. E.g. Hitler and Ghandi.

[Vaevictis]

Really? In a combat zone in Vietnam that's what you see? A stupid soldier torturing the enemy?

I see someone committing a crime while a photographer is taking pictures.

I'm pretty sure that's an act that qualifies as 'stupid', irrespective of who, where, or what you are.

Smart would be not doing it in front of the camera, or at least having the good sense to confiscate and destroy the evidence.

[jkjsooner]

In all likelihood, all this politically-motivated witchhunting is going to do is help insure we take no prisoners in future operations. I bet 8 out of 10 detainees would agree its better to be locked-up, well fed, safely housed, given medical attention, and asked questions regarding one's co-jihaadis than be shot in the face. But then again, maybe not. The latter is a faster route to the 72 virgins and martyrdom, etc.

And that's a guarantee that they fight to the death and take out as many of our guys as they can instead of giving up.

Our treatment of POW's in WW2 was a huge strategic benefit to us. It also seemed to be a big benefit in Gulf War 1.

I know the terrorists are a different breed so maybe that argument doesn't apply but I would rather we take the high road.

[Harry Beanbag]

Our treatment of POW's in WW2 was a huge strategic benefit to us. It also seemed to be a big benefit in Gulf War 1.


Maybe in Europe, but most definitely not in the Pacific. And these terrorist ****s are more similar to the Japanese Bushido mindset than any other foe the U.S. has faced. They are vermin that must be exterminated.

[101sooner]

And that's a guarantee that they fight to the death and take out as many of our guys as they can instead of giving up.

Our treatment of POW's in WW2 was a huge strategic benefit to us. It also seemed to be a big benefit in Gulf War 1.

I know the terrorists are a different breed so maybe that argument doesn't apply but I would rather we take the high road.


We do take the high road and we should. But let's be honest about what this approach has done for our troops. I mean, one of the fundamental reasons that we treat enemy POW's in accordance with the Geneva Convention is that we hope they will do the same.

I'm not sure how our treatment of POW's in WWII was a huge strategic benefit. It was the right thing to do, and it still is, but let's be real here.

The Germans may have treated some of our POW's well, but they were committing genocide at the same time. The Holocaust.

The Japanese were sadistic. Their treatment of U.S POW's is one of the most brutal episodes in American history.

In Korea, almost half of all U.S. POW's died in captivity. As of 1983, there were credibal reports of U.S. Pow's in China from the Korean war.

In Vietnam, enlisted soldiers were usually tortured and killed on the spot. A few aviators survived the Hanoi Hilton, but every day the VC committed more war crimes than the U.S. has in the entire GWOT.

Are you suggesting that our treatment of Iraqi POW's in the first Gulf War was somehow a strategic advantage? You do realize that you are talking about a regime lead by a megalomaniac and his two sons who took pleasure in mutilation and torture. It's what they did for fun. It was their favorite past time. Every day, they killed someone. Almost every day, they raped someone and issued a death sentence to any family member that complained.

The fact that we waterboarded some terrorists and some idiots at Abu Ghraib made naked pyramids doesn't mean that we don't treat POW's in accordance with the Geneva Convention. We do. There are rare exceptions, but we haven't faced an enemy in the last 70 years that has treated our POW's with respect because we followed the rules.

The survival rate for any U.S. soldier captured by Al Qaede is zero. Certain death. Torture, mutilation, and the video posted on the internet.

I appreciate you moral high ground, and I agree with you. So did President Bush. Let's just be real about what we gain by being the good guys, and we are, the good guys.

[Fraggle145]

In all likelihood, all this politically-motivated witchhunting is going to do is help insure we take no prisoners in future

Honestly this wouldnt make me all that sad. Would rather have some dead bastages then bastages I have to feed that want to chop my head off.

Its cheaper to bury people. I think. :O

[yermom]

We do take the high road and we should. But let's be honest about what this approach has done for our troops. I mean, one of the fundamental reasons that we treat enemy POW's in accordance with the Geneva Convention is that we hope they will do the same.

I'm not sure how our treatment of POW's in WWII was a huge strategic benefit. It was the right thing to do, and it still is, but let's be real here.

The Germans may have treated some of our POW's well, but they were committing genocide at the same time. The Holocaust.

The Japanese were sadistic. Their treatment of U.S POW's is one of the most brutal episodes in American history.

In Korea, almost half of all U.S. POW's died in captivity. As of 1983, there were credibal reports of U.S. Pow's in China from the Korean war.

In Vietnam, enlisted soldiers were usually tortured and killed on the spot. A few aviators survived the Hanoi Hilton, but every day the VC committed more war crimes than the U.S. has in the entire GWOT.

Are you suggesting that our treatment of Iraqi POW's in the first Gulf War was somehow a strategic advantage? You do realize that you are talking about a regime lead by a megalomaniac and his two sons who took pleasure in mutilation and torture. It's what they did for fun. It was their favorite past time. Every day, they killed someone. Almost every day, they raped someone and issued a death sentence to any family member that complained.

The fact that we waterboarded some terrorists and some idiots at Abu Ghraib made naked pyramids doesn't mean that we don't treat POW's in accordance with the Geneva Convention. We do. There are rare exceptions, but we haven't faced an enemy in the last 70 years that has treated our POW's with respect because we followed the rules.

The survival rate for any U.S. soldier captured by Al Qaede is zero. Certain death. Torture, mutilation, and the video posted on the internet.

I appreciate you moral high ground, and I agree with you. So did President Bush. Let's just be real about what we gain by being the good guys, and we are, the good guys.

first off, you guys act like waterboarding is not that bad. i'm still waiting to see how this Hannity/Olbermann thing turns out :D

but there is more to it than that. it's not like that is all they did.

here are a couple of examples: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html

one of which is Dilawar, the guy they made that Taxi to the Dark Side movie about.

that's only two. how many more did we not hear about?

i think Bush might have liked the idea of being on the high road, but didn't bother much to take it

[OU4LIFE]

What I've learned from this thread is that some people live in a sheltered fantasyland where reality is lollypops and lemon drops. I pity those people. God help them if they were ever put in a situation that required them to ever man up. And by man up I mean do the right thing. And sometimes, the right thing is to knock the ever lovin' **** outta somebody if it might save some of your buddies lives. But hey, stick to going to college and learning all kinds of sanctimonious self-righteous bull**** and keep running down the people who were put into situations where they have to even think about torturing another human being. I'm sure it'll help you sleep better at night knowing you are better than someone who actually did something to better your world.

this

[soonerscuba]

Heh, the knowledge that universities fostered and invented has saved an exponentially larger amount of humans than torture could ever dream, but don't let that stop a good anti-intellectual screed.

[C&CDean]

Heh, the knowledge that universities fostered and invented has saved an exponentially larger amount of humans than torture could ever dream, but don't let that stop a good anti-intellectual screed.

okie dokie smokie

[jkjsooner]

Are you suggesting that our treatment of Iraqi POW's in the first Gulf War was somehow a strategic advantage?

Yes, the Iraqis knew that they would be well treated if they surrendered and they did so by the tens of thousands. That's a lot better than them staying and fighting. Even if they were nothing short of a roadblock, there are probably at least a few more boys who wouldn't have come home had they put up a better fight.

I agree with the assertion tha Islamic terrorists are a lot closer to the Japanese so the treatment of POW's hardly factors into their thinking on the battlefield.

[JohnnyMack]

Heh, the knowledge that universities fostered and invented has saved an exponentially larger amount of humans than torture could ever dream, but don't let that stop a good anti-intellectual screed.

Go over to the Swat Valley and try to explain that to 'em. Lemme know how it works out.

[soonerscuba]

Go over to the Swat Valley and try to explain that to 'em. Lemme know how it works out.I'm not making any reference to the effectiveness of torture or Mideast policy, but the notion that those lazy university students have gone on to produce and manage the most productive workforce in the world, and created hundreds of thousands of ideas and products that have improved the quality and length of life are in some "fantasyland" seems patently false.

I just find it amusing that torture has gone into "bettering the world" which I would reject out of hand. I would guess you're average university student would provide a great more deal good to society than some MP on the 16th hour of his shift following some vague guideline that presents a "wink and nudge" for which he will be given a court-martial while the author walks. I can think of nothing more that would benefit the Swat Valley than embracing university (especially Western) education.

FWIW, I dislike the idea of torture as public policy more than I dislike torture. Bush should have done the same thing every administration does; do it, maintain plausible deniability and let the intelligence community do it's thing. The administration got greedy, tried too hard for too much and made us look like *******s.

[Curly Bill]

I would guess you're average university student would provide a great more deal good to society than some MP on the 16th hour of his shift following some vague guideline that presents a "wink and nudge" for which he will be given a court-martial while the author walks

You're saying the average university student provides more to society than does a military policeman? Surely, that's not what you're saying???

[Crucifax Autumn]

Beer tastes really good.

[Curly Bill]

Beer tastes really good.

Damn bro, you sound much like the "average university student."

Tell us of all the valuable services you've been providing to society. ;) :D

[Fraggle145]

I like Boobs

[C&CDean]

I'm not making any reference to the effectiveness of torture or Mideast policy, but the notion that those lazy university students have gone on to produce and manage the most productive workforce in the world, and created hundreds of thousands of ideas and products that have improved the quality and length of life are in some "fantasyland" seems patently false.

I just find it amusing that torture has gone into "bettering the world" which I would reject out of hand. I would guess you're average university student would provide a great more deal good to society than some MP on the 16th hour of his shift following some vague guideline that presents a "wink and nudge" for which he will be given a court-martial while the author walks. I can think of nothing more that would benefit the Swat Valley than embracing university (especially Western) education.

FWIW, I dislike the idea of torture as public policy more than I dislike torture. Bush should have done the same thing every administration does; do it, maintain plausible deniability and let the intelligence community do it's thing. The administration got greedy, tried too hard for too much and made us look like *******s.

I will just allow this intellectually-driven diatribe stand-alone and speak for itself. It speaks volumes.

[picasso]

first off, you guys act like waterboarding is not that bad. i'm still waiting to see how this Hannity/Olbermann thing turns out :D

but there is more to it than that. it's not like that is all they did.

here are a couple of examples: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html

one of which is Dilawar, the guy they made that Taxi to the Dark Side movie about.

that's only two. how many more did we not hear about?

i think Bush might have liked the idea of being on the high road, but didn't bother much to take it

Olbermann and Hannity, 2 mouthpieces on opposite ends of the spectrum. neither one willing to admit when wrong. And Olbermann thinks he's soo much smarter than you.

[soonerscuba]

You're saying the average university student provides more to society than does a military policeman? Surely, that's not what you're saying???Not at all. I said that an MP committing torture as a result of vague policy is doing a great deal of harm to society.

It isn't a diatribe, and I have nothing against the military. I just don't think the argument that people committing torture are doing society a favor is a good one, and the notion they are some how American heroes is absurd.

University students are responsible for the existence of this board, I just find mocking them in comparison to people engaging in an illegal act to be silly.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm not making any reference to the effectiveness of torture or Mideast policy, but the notion that those lazy university students have gone on to produce and manage the most productive workforce in the world, and created hundreds of thousands of ideas and products that have improved the quality and length of life are in some "fantasyland" seems patently false.

I just find it amusing that torture has gone into "bettering the world" which I would reject out of hand. I would guess you're average university student would provide a great more deal good to society than some MP on the 16th hour of his shift following some vague guideline that presents a "wink and nudge" for which he will be given a court-martial while the author walks. I can think of nothing more that would benefit the Swat Valley than embracing university (especially Western) education.

FWIW, I dislike the idea of torture as public policy more than I dislike torture. Bush should have done the same thing every administration does; do it, maintain plausible deniability and let the intelligence community do it's thing. The administration got greedy, tried too hard for too much and made us look like *******s.

I agree with what you're saying. But we could hypothesize and pontificate in message boards and coffee shops and on bar stools 'til the wee hours of the morning. It doesn't change the fact that there are bad men in this world who would do you or someone you love harm given the chance. No one is diminishing the role that university life plays in creating more well rounded individual, rather trying to point out that sometimes good people are forced to make tough decisions. Decisions that may make you feel icky inside or tug at the moral fabric of your being, but in the end, Colonel Jessup was right.

[C&CDean]

Not at all. I said that an MP committing torture as a result of vague policy is doing a great deal of harm to society.

It isn't a diatribe, and I have nothing against the military. I just don't think the argument that people committing torture are doing society a favor is a good one, and the notion they are some how American heroes is absurd.

University students are responsible for the existence of this board, I just find mocking them in comparison to people engaging in an illegal act to be silly.

Go overboard much?

I'm a veteran. I was also a college student.

The only thing I'm mocking is the intellectual types who think that soldiers who do things to survive that are unpalatable in a civilized society are somehow evil.

The thing you, and the academic geeks like you are forgetting is that a) we're not fighting against a civilized society, and b) it's very easy being a pampered little college boy who can judge/criticize/lambast the people who have chosen to protect your rights to be a silly little college boy who thinks he has all the answers.

Every single one of you guys needs to see their best buddies dismembered body. Every one of you guys needs to see women and children tortured, beaten, raped, and killed. Then perhaps your so very evolved view of the world might be a little different. But that ain't gonna happen. You and those like you will sit in your insulated ivory tower and look down the end of your noses at the very people who provide your freedom as vermin.

[SoonerProphet]

is that you john wayne? is this me?

[soonerscuba]

I agree with what you're saying. But we could hypothesize and pontificate in message boards and coffee shops and on bar stools 'til the wee hours of the morning. It doesn't change the fact that there are bad men in this world who would do you or someone you love harm given the chance. No one is diminishing the role that university life plays in creating more well rounded individual, rather trying to point out that sometimes good people are forced to make tough decisions. Decisions that may make you feel icky inside or tug at the moral fabric of your being, but in the end, Colonel Jessup was right.I agree with everything you said, but there is a time and a place for everything, and having enlisted MPs use torture, photograph it, and then leak it caused way more damage than good. Having highly trained professionals within the CIA do something that pushes the edge of morally acceptable in a dark room in Croatia is one thing, codifying an extremely vague directive to soldiers in a war zone, who haven't recieved much training in interrogation was pretty much indicative to the rest of Bush policy, hastly thought out and poorly executed.

Like I said, I have way more of a problem with the legal wrangling and attempts to codify the interrogation techniques, than the actual interrogation.

[C&CDean]

is that you john wayne? is this me?

Blow me, smart guy.

[soonerscuba]

Go overboard much?

I'm a veteran. I was also a college student.

The only thing I'm mocking is the intellectual types who think that soldiers who do things to survive that are unpalatable in a civilized society are somehow evil.

The thing you, and the academic geeks like you are forgetting is that a) we're not fighting against a civilized society, and b) it's very easy being a pampered little college boy who can judge/criticize/lambast the people who have chosen to protect your rights to be a silly little college boy who thinks he has all the answers.

Every single one of you guys needs to see their best buddies dismembered body. Every one of you guys needs to see women and children tortured, beaten, raped, and killed. Then perhaps your so very evolved view of the world might be a little different. But that ain't gonna happen. You and those like you will sit in your insulated ivory tower and look down the end of your noses at the very people who provide your freedom as vermin.Speaking of going overboard, when did I ever suggest that soldiers were vermin? I said people who were court-martialed provided less societal good than your average college student, to convert that into some idea that I "hate the troops" is melodramatic.

Let's not forget that ivory tower trained the officers, lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc. that have helped make it the most effective military in history.

[SoonerProphet]

Blow me, smart guy.

oh relax chief, panties a bit tight today, it is line from a movie.

[Harry Beanbag]

University students are responsible for the existence of this board, I just find mocking them in comparison to people engaging in an illegal act to be silly.


You're comparing every university student to a handful of soldiers, which isn't intellectually honest. The Virginia Tech university student that killed 30+ people doesn't fit into your argument does he? What about Bill Gates, sure he was a student, like many many millions of others, but he never graduated.

This board also wouldn't exist without the military so you're in a logic circle.

[Harry Beanbag]

Let's not forget that ivory tower trained the officers, lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc. that have helped make it the most effective military in history.



:confused:

[C&CDean]

oh relax chief, panties a bit tight today, it is line from a movie.

Well then you should know that if it isn't a quote out of a Harry Potter movie I probably haven't seen it.

[soonerscuba]

:confused:JAGs.

My argument isn't that university students provide more societal good than the military, there isn't really a way to prove or disprove that. Given the exitence of the academies and ROTC, it's very possible and necessary to do both. I was simply responding to the fact that when "torture is wrong" is met with "college students are in fantasyland", I think it's a silly argument that should be pointed out as silly. If you were to rephrase it and say that people outside of the interrogation process should be mindful that some techniques used are morally ambigious, and that you should be thankful you aren't in that position is fine, but to bring college students into it just seems like grandstanding to point out that you are wisened.

Once again, I am making an important distinction between enlisted MPs taking vague orders and CIA intelligence officers, one is required to be in the buisness of making morally questionable calls, the other is a snafu waiting to happen from a policy standpoint.

[Harry Beanbag]

JAGs.

JAGs make it the most effective military in history?




Once again, I am making an important distinction between enlisted MPs taking vague orders and CIA intelligence officers, one is required to be in the buisness of making morally questionable calls, the other is a snafu waiting to happen from a policy standpoint.

I understand this point, although it is a vague one as well. You just have a problem with who is doing it, not that it is happening?

[C&CDean]

JAGs.

My argument isn't that university students provide more societal good than the military, there isn't really a way to prove or disprove that. Given the exitence of the academies and ROTC, it's very possible and necessary to do both. I was simply responding to the fact that when "torture is wrong" is met with "college students are in fantasyland", I think it's a silly argument that should be pointed out as silly. If you were to rephrase it and say that people outside of the interrogation process should be mindful that some techniques used are morally ambigious, and that you should be thankful you aren't in that position is fine, but to bring college students into it just seems like grandstanding to point out that you are wisened.

Once again, I am making an important distinction between enlisted MPs taking vague orders and CIA intelligence officers, one is required to be in the buisness of making morally questionable calls, the other is a snafu waiting to happen from a policy standpoint.

Well, I would rephrase it to say what you said above, but I ain't that smart.

[JohnnyMack]

Well then you should know that if it isn't a quote out of a Harry Potter movie I probably haven't seen it.

http://www.facepalm.org/images/03.jpg

[soonerscuba]

JAGs make it the most effective military in history?





I understand this point, although it is a vague one as well. You just have a problem with who is doing it, not that it is happening?Help make it the most effective military, I would think having a code of conduct backed by JAGs would help that aim.

I feel that the DoD allowed for a environment that encouraged torture by people who had no business employing it. I don't have a problem with highly trained individuals utilizing every available tool (within a very broad sense of what is reasonable), but don't not make it policy and don't let the fact we do it get out.

[C&CDean]

Help make it the most effective military, I would think having a code of conduct backed by JAGs would help that aim.

I feel that the DoD allowed for a environment that encouraged torture by people who had no business employing it. I don't have a problem with highly trained individuals utilizing every available tool (within a very broad sense of what is reasonable), but don't not make it policy and don't let the fact we do it get out.

This completely goes against the liberal mantra of "tell the people everything dammit." Well that's the mantra when a conservative is in office anyhow.

[Harry Beanbag]

Help make it the most effective military, I would think having a code of conduct backed by JAGs would help that aim.


I think you may be reaching a little here. But that's to be expected from an academic that looks down upon lowly, cromagnon soldiers. ;)

[olevetonahill]

Damn bro, you sound much like the "average university student."

Tell us of all the valuable services you've been providing to society. ;) :D

He makes a Fine lookin Deck of cards :D

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/gregory-kane/Dont-start-nothing-wont-be-nothing--44290082.html


Don't start nothing, won't be nothing

By: Gregory Kane

Here’s why I don’t care that al-Qaeda operatives Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah were waterboarded after Sept. 11, 2001: I remember where I was the day before.

Every American who recalls that day can probably remember where he or she was when those jets hit the World Trade Center. I do too. But I remember where I was on Sept. 10, 2001, at about the same time.

In the lowest level of the World Trade Center, getting off a commuter train from Jersey City, N.J. I had an appointment in midtown-Manhattan and had to take a subway train from the WTC. Had I done that a day later, I’d have arrived at the WTC at just about the time the first or second jet hit.

But what if I had arrived maybe 15 minutes earlier and had some time to kill? What if I’d decided I wanted to go to the top of the WTC and take in the view?

Then I’d have been one of those people who were trapped above the inferno that raged below them, terrified, wondering how or if we could ever escape. I’d have experienced the terror they felt as the WTC Twin Towers collapsed beneath them and sent them to their horrible deaths.

And you sure as heck wouldn’t be reading this column. Yes, I came that close to perhaps being among the WTC casualties of Sept. 11.

So when President Obama declassified Justice Department memos that revealed the waterboarding of Mohammed and Zubaydah, perhaps you can forgive me if the knowledge didn’t exactly leave me prostrate with grief. Nor am I feeling the arguments of those
who claim how torture violates our principles and destroys our values.

Does it, really? We were in a war against terrorists. War is called war for a reason. It’s because nasty things get done in a war, lots of them. The Allies killed hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese civilians in bombing raids during World War II. Should we have NOT bombed Germany and Japan because killing civilians violates our principles and destroys our values?

Or does torture violate our principles and destroy our values while wholesale killing of civilians is acceptable?

Several books have hit the market in the last few years about the plight of German civilians during World War II. Some tell the story of their fate during the bombing raids. At least one claims that some two million German civilians died during the Allied occupation of Germany. And of course, for decades, we’ve had the handwringing and whining about what we did to the Japanese with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As for the latter event, it occurs to me that there were exactly 1,337 days from Dec. 8, 1941 up to Aug. 5, 1945 – the day before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. The Japanese government could have surrendered – and surrendered unconditionally – on any one of them.

As for the plight of the Germans, which applies to the Japanese as well, I invoke that great black American adage that goes like this:
Don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing.

That saying has been around Afro-Americana for decades. It basically means this: if you don’t want to suffer the consequences of starting some trouble, then don’t start any trouble.

Perhaps Obama, instead of piously intoning that America “does not torture,” should instead tell the world, specifically terrorists, that from now on the nation will invoke the great African-American Prime Directive of “Don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing.” Because once you start something, then anything goes.

So from now on, we won’t have to fret when guys like Mohammed and Zubaydah get waterboarded. After all, they would have been warned in advance. (And won’t someone point out that Mohammed and Zubaydah got off a lot easier than those poor souls trapped in the Twin Towers on Sept. 11, 2001?)

If we don’t want to go with the Great African-American Prime Directive, perhaps we can go with one less known. I can’t recall who said it or where I read it, but it goes something like this:

If it’s worth fighting for, it’s worth fighting dirty for.

[MrJimBeam]

Glad I don't give 2 ****'s we waterboared old Sheikh Mohammed Whathisname, if it means saving Americans hang'em by their nuts. I just don't care, ****'em. We used to blow up little black girls going to church, that didn't distroy the country and neither will this. And when we blew up little girls we did it to kill them, not because we needed info to save lives. And if the Japs didn't want to be hung for waterboarding they should have won the ****ing war.

[JohnnyMack]

Glad I don't give 2 ****'s we waterboared old Sheikh Mohammed Whathisname, if it means saving Americans hang'em by their nuts. I just don't care, ****'em. We used to blow up little black girls going to church, that didn't distroy the country and neither will this. And when we blew up little girls we did it to kill them, not because we needed info to save lives. And if the Japs didn't want to be hung for waterboarding they should have won the ****ing war.

America. ****. Yeah?

[C&CDean]

Glad I don't give 2 ****'s we waterboared old Sheikh Mohammed Whathisname, if it means saving Americans hang'em by their nuts. I just don't care, ****'em. We used to blow up little black girls going to church, that didn't distroy the country and neither will this. And when we blew up little girls we did it to kill them, not because we needed info to save lives. And if the Japs didn't want to be hung for waterboarding they should have won the ****ing war.

Uh, huh? "WE" didn't blow up little black girls. A couple of ****ing racist cowards did. How in the hell do you get that analogy with waterboarding terrorist **********s? Geez.

[picasso]

what was the middle part?

[Sooner04]

is that you john wayne? is this me?
Who said that? WHO THE **** JUST SAID THAT?

[Harry Beanbag]

American girls and american guys
Well always stand up and salute
Well always recognize
When we see old glory flying
Theres a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head

My daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Until the day that he died
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love
Has fallen under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flyin in
From somewhere in the back
Soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man, we lit up your world
Like the 4th of july

Hey uncle sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the statue of liberty
Started shakin her fist
And the eagle will fly
Man, its gonna be hell
When you hear mother freedom
Start ringin her bell
And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy of the red white and blue

Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And youll be sorry that you messed with
The u.s. of a.
cause well put a boot in your ***
Its the american way

Hey uncle sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the statue of liberty
Started shakin her fist
And the eagle will fly
Man, its gonna be hell
When you hear mother freedom
Start ringin her bell
And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy of the red white and blue