PDA

View Full Version : Chavez giving Obama the book



jkjsooner
4/20/2009, 09:32 PM
What do you guys think about Chavez giving Obama the book?

If I was Obama I would be very insulted. Such a political move has no place during an exchange of pleasantries.

I don't blame Obama. I think having a dialogue with those who you disagree with (with exceptions to ruthless dictators) is a sign of strength.

I do think the little experiment with reaching out to Chavez should be over. Obama should tell the world that his attempt at diplomacy was returned with an insult. IMO, I think the Western world would agree that Obama has proven that he has the moral high ground.

Unfortunately I don't think Obama is going to call Chavez out. I think he could really make Chavez look like a fool but I'm afraid that he's not going to do that.

Ike
4/20/2009, 09:41 PM
I thought "meh". Obama can always whip up a boxed set of Three's Company DVDs to give to Chavez and we can call the gift-exchange a draw.

OU_Sooners75
4/20/2009, 09:47 PM
What Obama needs to do is bring Chavez to the US.

Then give him a private tour (with Robert Gates) of the American Military might!

Then he should, in front of the cameras, hand the book back to Chavez and tell him he can shove the book up his ***.

Then mention to him that he has exactly 10 minutes to get back to his Hotel, gather his possessions, and get the hell out of the US!

If he wishes to have any dialogue with us, then he needs to show a little ****ing respect!

theresonly1OU
4/20/2009, 09:48 PM
What do you guys think about Chavez giving Obama the book?

If I was Obama I would be very insulted. Such a political move has no place during an exchange of pleasantries.

I don't blame Obama. I think having a dialogue with those who you disagree with (with exceptions to ruthless dictators) is a sign of strength.

I do think the little experiment with reaching out to Chavez should be over. Obama should tell the world that his attempt at diplomacy was returned with an insult. IMO, I think the Western world would agree that Obama has proven that he has the moral high ground.

Unfortunately I don't think Obama is going to call Chavez out. I think he could really make Chavez look like a fool but I'm afraid that he's not going to do that.

Dialogue is one thing.

Playing Oprah's book club with a dictator who called the genocidal Mugabe a "freedom fighter", your predecessor "Satan; Bush-hitler; the devil", told the previous Secretary of State "you don't want to mess with me, little girl" and announces to anyone who'll listen that "Capitalism is the pathway to hell" is very much another.

Harry Beanbag
4/20/2009, 09:55 PM
I would have slapped Hugo upside the head with the damn book, but that's just me. But then again, like Ike said, Barack has already been outed as a crappy gift giver.

I think what it comes down to is what did everybody really think would happen when he reaches out to these despotic **********s? Did people really think it would be peaches and cream or was it just transparent bull**** campaign rhetoric like it looked to be in the first place?

salth2o
4/20/2009, 10:36 PM
I am sure bho will emphatically apologize to Chavez for the way America has treated the Latin Americans.

Maybe even bow to him and who knows what else while he is down there.

GottaHavePride
4/20/2009, 11:01 PM
You guys are crazy. You don't think Chavez's little book gift makes him look like a chump? Because I think so. We don't have to thump our chests after that - that just pisses other countries off. All Obama needs to do is not even react to Chavez's gift.

OU_Sooners75
4/20/2009, 11:07 PM
You guys are crazy. You don't think Chavez's little book gift makes him look like a chump? Because I think so. We don't have to thump our chests after that - that just pisses other countries off. All Obama needs to do is not even react to Chavez's gift.


That is the pussified way out.

What Chavez did was slapping the US in the face of the President.

I wished my fellow democrats balls would drop. That or they would get a freaking pair!

I would have looked that the title then gave it back to him right then and there. Then give him my gift:
















http://www.boredwrestlingfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/stonecoldfinger.jpg

JLEW1818
4/21/2009, 01:22 AM
If Obama would have dropped the book on purpose, I would have officially jumped on the Obama wagon.! ..... well maybe.. lol

Crucifax Autumn
4/21/2009, 01:26 AM
Obama could win a few of you over by publically urinating on it in the Oval Office! lol

JLEW1818
4/21/2009, 01:30 AM
Obama could win a few of you over by publically urinating on it in the Oval Office! lol

true that....

olevetonahill
4/21/2009, 01:45 AM
Its gonna take some doing fer him to win me over .

JLEW1818
4/21/2009, 01:54 AM
What if he said he drank ovj ......

olevetonahill
4/21/2009, 02:02 AM
What if he said he drank ovj ......

Im still waitin on him to come to the shack, Kick back and have a few shots with me .

JLEW1818
4/21/2009, 02:04 AM
"I'm Barack Obama and I approve this drink"

BudSooner
4/21/2009, 09:44 AM
"Dearest Hugo,

I appreciate teh book, it has some light moments such as teh tourture of the innocents suspected of spying, good reading comrade.

As a gesture of good faith, I invite you to be here on July 4th to witness a military parade.....and if you **** with us, you will get to see first hand what we will shove up that fat/bloated/inbred *** of yours......


Sincerest BHO"


Heh, it would never happen though.

jkjsooner
4/21/2009, 10:12 AM
I would have looked that the title then gave it back to him right then and there. Then give him my gift:

Seriously, it would have been a great moment if Obama would have just given the book back to Chavez and said, "No thanks."

Unfortunately, the book was in Spanish and I don't think Obama was familiar with it so he couldn't immediately react to it. I'm not sure he would anyway but it would have been nice to see it.

soonervegas
4/21/2009, 12:26 PM
This is one area early in Obama's tenure where the Right has it "right". He needs to make a statement denouncing this moron....in the most non-chalant way possible, then move on.

He tried....no need to go to that well again.

BudSooner
4/21/2009, 12:32 PM
That is more like it.

yermom
4/21/2009, 02:10 PM
has anyone actually read the book?

olevetonahill
4/21/2009, 02:21 PM
has anyone actually read the book?

Book ? What Book
we just wanta bitch :D

1890MilesToNorman
4/21/2009, 02:35 PM
I think it was a book on Latin American history? either that or a vintage copy of Hugo the Mighty Duck comic book.

jkjsooner
4/21/2009, 03:36 PM
has anyone actually read the book?

You know, it doesn't really matter. The book places a lot of blame on the West and the U.S. and even if the issues the book raises were legitimate, giving it to Obama in public during an exchange of greetings is rude and unacceptable.

If I thought the book was legit and wanted to give it to Obama, I would do it in a closed discussion. Giving it to him in public is nothing short of a stunt and is the worst way to ensure that Obama actually reads it.

Given, Obama may read it anyway but I wouldn't.

That being said, I've heard that most economists consider it a very flawed and simplistic view of Western and Latin America interactions and that's enough for me. (And I heard this through NY Times and BBC not Fox News...)

yermom
4/21/2009, 03:46 PM
still, it sounds like it's a common book that might explain the frustrations of people living in Latin America

it sounds like it goes back to being exploited by the Europeans when they first got there, to now (or the '70s when it was written)

i don't know that much about it though

OU_Sooners75
4/21/2009, 11:54 PM
still, it sounds like it's a common book that might explain the frustrations of people living in Latin America

it sounds like it goes back to being exploited by the Europeans when they first got there, to now (or the '70s when it was written)

i don't know that much about it though


If those that live in Latin America detest the West and United States views so much, then why the hell are they coming across our borders by the thousands, ILLEGALLY?

Crucifax Autumn
4/22/2009, 12:05 AM
It IS logical in a weird sense. They perceive that their conditions suck due to our policies and ours are good for the same policies so they want a piece of the pie.

As for Obama, he just showed cool (Kools) in the exchange and didn't act like a jackass. If he plays it right and he's the grownup in the exchange Chavez will look like a fool in the longterm to people that reside in places other than the US.

With Obama's popularity in foreign countries he has a chance to give Chavez and many other idiots all over the world 2 choices...Alienate yourselves further by being intolerant smartasses or play the game and join the world community as partners rather than regional troublemakers.

I just hoe the big O has the skills to pull it off without pussifying the US.

47straight
4/22/2009, 05:47 PM
I'd give Chavez a collector's pack of 1908's GI Joe comic books.

Harry Beanbag
4/22/2009, 10:40 PM
has anyone actually read the book?


No. Did Hugo write it? I don't even know the answer to that. If he did, why in the **** would anybody give two, or even three, ****s about what the ****er has to say. No matter how touchy feely one may be, his opinion on anything the United States does should be invalid.

swardboy
4/23/2009, 09:07 AM
Since when did U.S. Presidents start accepting ANY gifts from dictators? Oh, nm.....

MrJimBeam
4/23/2009, 10:29 AM
I wonder if in 40 years Chavez writes a book telling the story of how he won 10 straight presidential elections?

KC//CRIMSON
4/23/2009, 12:14 PM
Clinton 2 – Dickless Republicans 0

H.C. is on fire today!

Per Talking Points Memo, Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) brought the party line and quizzed Secretary Hillary Clinton on the assertion that President Obama’s photo-op with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez will be used against this country and will somehow make America weak. Sec. Clinton responds with lesson of the the cold war and how past Presidents met with Communist dictators, who threatened our country for years, to negotiate. She also explains that Obama won the election and he gets to decide how America should behave with other countries.

Watch the clip. Pay particular attention to Rep. Pence’s face after she’s done and listen for the sound of Velcro tearing. It’s the sound of Rep. Pence getting neutered and Sec. Clinton pocketing his balls.

5mFrML6s0hw

Now sit down, chump!

Pricetag
4/23/2009, 12:23 PM
Is that Filipe from "The Biggest Loser" sitting behind her?

OklahomaTuba
4/24/2009, 08:06 AM
Gotta love how he gladly accepts that crap from such a vile POS commie dictator.

Yet returns the bust of Churchill given to us by the UK after 9/11.

CHANGE!

soonerhubs
4/24/2009, 10:28 AM
Gotta love how he gladly accepts that crap from such a vile POS commie dictator.

Yet returns the bust of Churchill given to us by the UK after 9/11.

CHANGE!

It's not a shock. This administration follows Neville, not Winston. Didn't you know all you have to do is reach out and hug these suicide bombers? We're sorry we took such a hard stance against your murderous regimes and evil terrorist groups killing Americans. For the next 4 years, let's play nice. :rolleyes:
It's coming back to this all over again.
http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Il/albright.jpg

Cue: "... but the past administration failed in so many ways, and they water boarded innocent terrorists who killed people!"

My Reply: "Is it our modus operandi to replace dumb with dumber?"

SoonerProphet
4/24/2009, 10:52 AM
Some of you folks are so ****in' partisan it is ridiculous. You read some dumbassery from your chosen reading rag and regirgitate as if it some kind of "truth". Nixon never accepted pandas from Mao? Thatcher never curtsied to the Saudi monarchs? Christ, bitch about something that is tangible like the fact that smokes have gone up ten fold do to sale tax.

KC//CRIMSON
4/24/2009, 10:53 AM
Gotta love how he gladly accepts that crap from such a vile POS commie dictator.

Yet returns the bust of Churchill given to us by the UK after 9/11.

CHANGE!


You'd flip out if he held the mustard on his corn dog.

soonerhubs
4/24/2009, 12:28 PM
Some of you folks are so ****in' partisan it is ridiculous. You read some dumbassery from your chosen reading rag and regirgitate as if it some kind of "truth". Nixon never accepted pandas from Mao? Thatcher never curtsied to the Saudi monarchs? Christ, bitch about something that is tangible like the fact that smokes have gone up ten fold do to sale tax.

You just realized my prediction using a different president. :D And you call yourself a prophet. ;)

This transcends politics. Trust me Democrats nor Republicans have the monopoly on stupidity. I'd suggest the market remains extremely competitive for that commodity.

So, since you're the post modernist prodigy whose knowledge and wisdom exceeds everyone else on the planet (except Johnny *Mack*'s of course ;) :D), tell us what "rag" we should be reading. Personally I read all of the media sources both left, right, moderate and independent. I even read/listen to Amy Goodman, though I throw up a little whilst doing so. All joking aside, what is it that we should be reading that we are apparently ignoring?

Oh, and I don't mind the price of smokes going up because I'm sick of these morons sharing carcinogens with the rest of us while they stand at the Walmart entrance beside the sign that reads (in English) 25 ft. Also, people, throw your friggen butts in the trash already, they are disgusting, and poisonous to pets! ...and yes, I know my pet poops, but I've yet to see someone die of lung cancer because he smelled dog poop. :D

Rant over... for now.

OklahomaRed
4/24/2009, 01:14 PM
While we are ranting..............

Liberals seems to think they have some edict on being right? What are you basing that off of? I assume it's the fact that Obama was elected, you kicked a weak president and party out of office, and you now have the House being ran by the ilk of such characters as Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank?

I would like to point out that Obama received 53% of the vote. 53%! I would have hoped he could have did better in the face of a collapsing economy, an unpopular war, and ongoing corporate and Wall Street corruption.

So, we make the decision to "change" in the hopes that we can stop corporations from being greedy, that we can re-distribute wealth since all these greedy bastages out there don't care about anyone, so that we can create a national healthcare system, and so we can spend our grandchildren and great-grandchildren into poverty?

All I can say is we are going to get what we asked for. More taxes, more government regulations over our every day lives, and socialism.

Heck, Chavez is one of us. Why not take the book? After all, it's all about the greedy white people who came to the Americas centuries ago to steal from Britain and the rest of Europe, who brought blacks over here against their will, who cheated France, who defeated Mexico, who raped the Indians, and who cheated Russia. Let's just get down on the ground and grovel and tell the entire world we are sorry, and we're all just a bunch of fat, lazy, greedy, good for nothing, bullies, and cheaters?

Maybe the world will respect us then? :D

KC//CRIMSON
4/24/2009, 01:22 PM
I'm sick of these morons sharing carcinogens with the rest of us while they stand at the Walmart entrance...


This is killing me.....

Vaevictis
4/24/2009, 01:23 PM
It's not a shock. This administration follows Neville, not Winston.

Please. Winston negotiated with dictators too, and appeased them when it was beneficial to do so.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Yalta_summit_1945_with_Churchill%2C_Roosevelt%2C_S talin.jpg

OklahomaTuba
4/24/2009, 01:39 PM
racists, all of em.

JohnnyMack
4/24/2009, 01:57 PM
While we are ranting..............

Liberals seems to think they have some edict on being right? What are you basing that off of? I assume it's the fact that Obama was elected, you kicked a weak president and party out of office, and you now have the House being ran by the ilk of such characters as Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank?

I would like to point out that Obama received 53% of the vote. 53%! I would have hoped he could have did better in the face of a collapsing economy, an unpopular war, and ongoing corporate and Wall Street corruption.

So, we make the decision to "change" in the hopes that we can stop corporations from being greedy, that we can re-distribute wealth since all these greedy bastages out there don't care about anyone, so that we can create a national healthcare system, and so we can spend our grandchildren and great-grandchildren into poverty?

All I can say is we are going to get what we asked for. More taxes, more government regulations over our every day lives, and socialism.

Heck, Chavez is one of us. Why not take the book? After all, it's all about the greedy white people who came to the Americas centuries ago to steal from Britain and the rest of Europe, who brought blacks over here against their will, who cheated France, who defeated Mexico, who raped the Indians, and who cheated Russia. Let's just get down on the ground and grovel and tell the entire world we are sorry, and we're all just a bunch of fat, lazy, greedy, good for nothing, bullies, and cheaters?

Maybe the world will respect us then? :D

Question: Do you masturbate during or after watching Hannity?

47straight
4/24/2009, 02:36 PM
Please. Winston negotiated with dictators too, and appeased them when it was beneficial to do so.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Yalta_summit_1945_with_Churchill%2C_Roosevelt%2C_S talin.jpg

I think it's stretching to call FDR a dictator.

SoonerProphet
4/24/2009, 02:36 PM
You just realized my prediction using a different president. :D And you call yourself a prophet. ;). Not fo such I follow, but okay.


This transcends politics. Trust me Democrats nor Republicans have the monopoly on stupidity. I'd suggest the market remains extremely competitive for that commodity.

Agree, then why the moronic comparison to Neville.


So, since you're the post modernist prodigy whose knowledge and wisdom exceeds everyone else on the planet (except Johnny **Mack**'s of course ;) :D), tell us what "rag" we should be reading. Personally I read all of the media sources both left, right, moderate and independent. I even read/listen to Amy Goodman, though I throw up a little whilst doing so. All joking aside, what is it that we should be reading that we are apparently ignoring?

That is fine a broad range in reading is nice. You come off as a partisan hack with standard party fill ins. See the Neville quip


Oh, and I don't mind the price of smokes going up because I'm sick of these morons sharing carcinogens with the rest of us while they stand at the Walmart entrance beside the sign that reads (in English) 25 ft. Also, people, throw your friggen butts in the trash already, they are disgusting, and poisonous to pets! ...and yes, I know my pet poops, but I've yet to see someone die of lung cancer because he smelled dog poop. :D

Rant over... for now.

Ah yes, the I hate government except when crowd.

Harry Beanbag
4/24/2009, 04:07 PM
Oh, and I don't mind the price of smokes going up because I'm sick of these morons sharing carcinogens with the rest of us while they stand at the Walmart entrance beside the sign that reads (in English) 25 ft.:D


A person that believes steadfastly in conservative principles would not say something like this. Unfair taxation on a small segment of the population should be opposed on principle alone. Nimbyists are the enemy of our founding father's America and the expanding government's friend.

C&CDean
4/24/2009, 04:52 PM
A person that believes steadfastly in conservative principles would not say something like this. Unfair taxation on a small segment of the population should be opposed on principle alone. Nimbyists are the enemy of our founding father's America and the expanding government's friend.

Huh? What's unfair about taxing a group of people who choose to smoke? Everybody knows it's bad for everybody. If they don't want to be taxed, then don't buy the ****ing things. You don't need them to live. Hell, they're not even required to be cool anymore.

Harry Beanbag
4/24/2009, 05:57 PM
Huh? What's unfair about taxing a group of people who choose to smoke? Everybody knows it's bad for everybody. If they don't want to be taxed, then don't buy the ****ing things. You don't need them to live. Hell, they're not even required to be cool anymore.

That's why they do it. It's a cash cow that the majority of people don't care about so it will always pass the vote. Some day maybe they'll find a target that you do care about. How about a 300% tax on whiskey, or barbed wire, or people who work for the USPS, or pink OU hats, or Chinese food? You don't need any of that either, doesn't make it right.

KC//CRIMSON
4/24/2009, 06:01 PM
That's why they do it. It's a cash cow that the majority of people don't care about so it will always pass the vote. Some day maybe they'll find a target that you do care about. How about a 300% tax on whiskey, or barbed wire, or people who work for the USPS, or pink OU hats, or Chinese food? You don't need any of that either, doesn't make it right.


Dean has to mentally hate everything related to cigarettes so he doesn't fire one up again.

Frozen Sooner
4/24/2009, 06:05 PM
A person that believes steadfastly in conservative principles would not say something like this. Unfair taxation on a small segment of the population should be opposed on principle alone. Nimbyists are the enemy of our founding father's America and the expanding government's friend.

Alexander Hamilton proposed (and got passed) a tax on whiskey, and the tax was explicitly designed as a sin tax.

soonerhubs
4/24/2009, 08:48 PM
Please. Winston negotiated with dictators too, and appeased them when it was beneficial to do so.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Yalta_summit_1945_with_Churchill%2C_Roosevelt%2C_S talin.jpg

Touche and a very excellent point sir. One that I concede, respect, appreciate, and agree with.

See, Vaevictis did something some of you should take note of. He proved my moronic statement with a rationale counter point. It's much more effective than just calling someone a moron. You may want to take note SoonerProphet. :D

soonerhubs
4/24/2009, 08:51 PM
This is killing me.....

I gotta know. Is it the Walmart part? I'm poor white trash. I know I know. :O

soonerhubs
4/24/2009, 09:11 PM
Ah yes, the I hate government except when crowd.
Can you identify the post the expressed my hatred for the government? I personally think we have the greatest government on the planet. I love the two party system, and find it works best when there is a strong group to keep the other who happens to hold the most power in check.

Regarding my Neville comments. I disagree with the foreign policy of the current administration. If that makes me conservative, so be it. I personally found Churchill's actions to be more appropriate (granted he appeased the murderous dictator Stalin) and beneficial. Again, I may be wrong, and I'm willing to admit that. I'm also happy to hear other's counter points. Seriously, isn't that how we all learn?

However, before you start casting dichotomous and simplistic labels, perhaps you should consider the idea that people can support some facets of conservatism and others of the new progressive movement, and still sleep peacefully at night. It's called being a free thinker, and I struggle to respect anyone's opinion when they narrow their sources of information to the visceral rhetoric of Hannity or Rush, just as I detest the rambling of folks who consider themselves too educated to appreciate and glean valuable information the aforementioned radio show hosts may provide whilst only listening to NPR, Keith Olberman, or Rachel Maddow.

I personally love All Things Considered, The Story, Fresh Air, and many other NPR shows, but sometimes it's refreshing to listen to a little Rush Limbaugh to hear another perspective. Then there is BBC world news which gives a more international perspective regarding news even for the United States. You can't get much more post-positivistic than that... can you? You see, citing Chamberlain and Churchill is only a small piece of this Mormon's (not Moron) paradigm. I'm sure there's more to you as well.

SoonerProphet
4/24/2009, 09:48 PM
Touche and a very excellent point sir. One that I concede, respect, appreciate, and agree with.

See, Vaevictis did something some of you should take note of. He proved my moronic statement with a rationale counter point. It's much more effective than just calling someone a moron. You may want to take note SoonerProphet. :D

I apologize if I came off harsh. I don't think you are a moron, I do disagree with your assessment that BHO or his foreign policy is somehow related to appeasement or Neville Chamberlain based on the manufactured brouhaha over a book given to him by a world leader, kooky yes, but a world leader nonetheless. Like I said, there is plenty of issues to take him to task on.

SoonerProphet
4/24/2009, 10:02 PM
Can you identify the post the expressed my hatred for the government? I personally think we have the greatest government on the planet. I love the two party system, and find it works best when there is a strong group to keep the other who happens to hold the most power in check.

I refer to Harry's excellent post on the matter. Hamilton was a statist, for good or bad.



Regarding my Neville comments. I disagree with the foreign policy of the current administration. If that makes me conservative, so be it. I personally found Churchill's actions to be more appropriate (granted he appeased the murderous dictator Stalin) and beneficial. Again, I may be wrong, and I'm willing to admit that. I'm also happy to hear other's counter points. Seriously, isn't that how we all learn?

Much can be said about the whole dust up and, a silly oversimplication in of itself, "appeasement". Why wouldn't Poland discuss the issue of the Polish Corridor, why the **** did anyone listen to France after the Great War, etc. Yes, sometimes you have to deal with dictators and it seems kinda goofy to rip something as superficial as a damned book.


However, before you start casting dichotomous and simplistic labels, perhaps you should consider the idea that people can support some facets of conservatism and others of the new progressive movement, and still sleep peacefully at night. It's called being a free thinker, and I struggle to respect anyone's opinion when they narrow their sources of information to the visceral rhetoric of Hannity or Rush, just as I detest the rambling of folks who consider themselves too educated to appreciate and glean valuable information the aforementioned radio show hosts may provide whilst only listening to NPR, Keith Olberman, or Rachel Maddow.

I personally love All Things Considered, The Story, Fresh Air, and many other NPR shows, but sometimes it's refreshing to listen to a little Rush Limbaugh to hear another perspective. Then there is BBC world news which gives a more international perspective regarding news even for the United States. You can't get much more post-positivistic than that... can you? You see, citing Chamberlain and Churchill is only a small piece of this Mormon's (not Moron) paradigm. I'm sure there's more to you as well.

Again, I apologize if I offended you. It was not my intention. You are correct, much can be learned from having an open mind and consider all avenues of information. That includes thinking about other narratives behind the roots of WWII as well. Hubler, please do not think that my sentiment is that because you are a Mormon somehow equates to knuckledragger. You are a man of faith and I can respect that.

soonerhubs
4/24/2009, 10:08 PM
SoonerProphet, I appreciate your posts. I just threw the Mormon joke in there for fun. Thanks for replying to my points. I apologize if I seemed pejorative as well. Have a great weekend, and keep posting my friend.

Harry Beanbag
4/25/2009, 02:11 AM
Alexander Hamilton proposed (and got passed) a tax on whiskey, and the tax was explicitly designed as a sin tax.


And it caused a rebellion, right?

OklahomaRed
5/6/2009, 04:26 PM
Question: Do you masturbate during or after watching Hannity?

Why do you ask? Do you want to join in? :D

Frozen Sooner
5/6/2009, 04:49 PM
And it caused a rebellion, right?

So that means Hamilton wasn't a Founder?