Good Morning..."Battling Bastards of Bataan" endure boundless cruelty

[Okla-homey]

April 10, 1942: The Bataan Death March begins

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7105/aaaaaaaaaaabastardsbataan7rc.gif (http://imageshack.us)

On this day 67 years ago, one the most dramatic and horrible chapters of American military history begins. The day after the surrender of the main Philippine island of Luzon to the Japanese, the 75,000 Filipino and American troops captured on the Bataan Peninsula begin a forced march to a prison camp near Cabanatuan.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4033/aaaaaanewspaper3bv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

During this infamous trek, which became known for all time as the "Bataan Death March," already starved prisoners were forced to march 85 milesin six days amid tropical heat, with only one meal of rice during the entire journey.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2968/aaaaaaaabataanmap5no.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Filipino civilians along the route of march tried to sneak food and water to the marchers. Many were killed for their attempted kindness.

By the end of the march, which was punctuated with atrocities committed by the Japanese guards, hundreds of Americans and many more Filipinos had died.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3549/aaaaaaaaphotos313ej.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Men who couldn't go on were bayoneted, shot and in some cases ritually beheaded by Japanese officers

The stage was set for this supremely inhumane period the day after Japan bombed the U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor. On December 8, 1941 the Japanese invasion of the Philippines began. Within a month, the Japanese had captured Manila, the capital of the Philippines, and the U.S. and Filipino defenders of Luzon were forced to retreat to the Bataan Peninsula.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7608/aaaaaaa21301oc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Only brief rest stops were allowed. The Japanese guards were changed every three hours. The sick and hungry Filipino and American GI's were only afforded 5 minute breaks at approximately 2 hour intervals.

For the next three months, the combined U.S.-Filipino army, under the command of U.S. General Jonathan Wainwright, held out impressively despite a lack of naval and air support. Finally, on April 7, with his army crippled by starvation and disease, Wainwright began withdrawing as many troops as possible to the island fortress of Corregidor in Manila Bay.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9829/aaaaaaaaaphotos72kd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
The prisoners had to carry their own wounded as long as they could. They knew if they didn't carry their comrades their death would come instantly

However, two days later, 75,000 Allied troops were trapped by the Japanese and forced to surrender. The next day, the Bataan Death March began. Of those who survived to reach the Japanese prison camp near Cabanatuan, few lived to celebrate U.S. General Douglas MacArthur's liberation of Luzon in 1945.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7153/aaaaaaaaaaaphotos359gh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
The prisoners were repeatedly searched for absolutely anything of value and were denied anything that could be a source of comfort including family photos, letters and even Bibles.

In the Philippines, homage is paid to the victims of the Bataan Death March every April on Bataan Day, a national holiday that sees large groups of Filipinos solemnly rewalking parts of the death route.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/189/aaaaaaaaaaantijapan21xe.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Word of the Japanese cruelty and atrocities at Bataan spread quickly and fueled American resolve to destroy the Japanese Empire.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6562/aaaaaaaaaaaatrmnltr63ib.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Letter received by a "Death March" and POW survivor after his liberation at war's end.

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Jonathon Wainwright is embraced by Douglas MacArthur after the former's release from captivity after the liberation of the Phillippines in 1945. Wainwright was awarded the Medal of Honor for his steadfast defense of Corregidor against overwhelming odds and was granted the superintendency of West Point in the post-war years

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2687/insane7zo9db.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[OUDoc]

I'm amazed at the brutality every time I read about Bataan.

[XingTheRubicon]

They were some brutal enemy combatants.

[Cam]

Going to Corregidor was quite an experience. A very humbling experience.

[Okla-homey]

and to think, we lost the moral high ground in Iraq over some nekkid prisoner pictures and nekkid prisoner dog piles. :O

[Frozen Sooner]

Don't forget that Wainwright also has a US Army Installation in Fairbanks named for him.

[yermom]

and to think, we lost the moral high ground in Iraq over some nekkid prisoner pictures and nekkid prisoner dog piles. :O

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/

yep, harmless stuff going on there...

[theresonly1OU]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/

yep, harmless stuff going on there...


No kidding, bro!

I mean, all they wanted to do was love (http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/288736/three_teenage_girls_beheaded_in_indonesia/index.html) their fellow (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-11-iraq-beheading_x.htm) man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pearl), and here we are, violating their civil rights.

The agony. Too bad MacArthur isn't still around; he'd know what to do.

[yermom]

you can't claim the high road when you don't follow your rules either.

i'm just saying there was more there than just naked dudes and dogs.

[theresonly1OU]

you can't claim the high road when you don't follow your rules either.

i'm just saying there was more there than just naked dudes and dogs.

I'm pretty sure the fact that those involved with the death of the man in your link getting punished is evidence of the fact that that kind of despicable act was the exception, not the rule.

As opposed to the links I provided, where the murderers were (and still are) held to be heroes to the followers of Islamic Jihad.

That being said, point taken; I'm the last person to defend people who violate the rules of engagement, and what was done to those terroristic bastards, while well deserved, was against the UCMJ.

I'm just saying there's a difference between our side, where a few twisted individuals violated the law by torturing enemy combatants, and the side of Islamic Jihad, where torture and murder is the SOP.

[yermom]

except that the previous administration was endorsing these things

[theresonly1OU]

except that the previous administration was endorsing these things


Surely you aren't implying that the Bush administration endorsed murder via torture, are you?

[yermom]

they endorsed torture where people accidentally died...

[KC//CRIMSON]

Oh snap!

[theresonly1OU]

Proof?

[theresonly1OU]

The link you posted talked of a man who had been subjected to various methods OUTSIDE THE USMJ standards of conduct, one of which led to his death.

According to the same article, those responsible were summarily tried, convicted, and sentenced for their crimes.

OTOH, the murderers of Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, and the christian girls who were savagely beheaded are treated as heroes by their peers.

How is any of this similar?

[NYC Poke]

The CIA interrogator who did that, Mark Swanner, has to date not been charged with anything.

[theresonly1OU]

Oh snap!

Glad to see mom reinstated your computer privilegs, KC.

Thanks for the thought-provoking addition to the debate.

Now go get me a juicebox.

[theresonly1OU]

The CIA interrogator who did that, Mark Swanner, has to date not been charged with anything.

Because the CIA, CID, and DOJ, through an investigation lasting over a year, could not find evidence to implicate Mr. Swanner of any crime.

Funny how the Criminal Justice system works.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Glad to see mom reinstated your computer privilegs, KC.

Thanks for the thought-provoking addition to the debate.

Now go get me a juicebox.


Hey, how's it going, King of Siam! When is your next spot on political analogy?

[NYC Poke]

Because the CIA, CID, and DOJ, through an investigation lasting over a year, could not find evidence to implicate Mr. Swanner of any crime.

Funny how the Criminal Justice system works.

As a lawyer, I'm well aware how the system works. CID found the death was a homicide, and the CIA referred it to DOJ. This put Justice in a sticky situation, since the official line was that the U.S. did not torture. A prosecution would also open up the interrogation programs to discovery, something the administration did not want (and the current administration is currently resisting as well). So they decided to sit on it, which is within their discretion. I wouldn't surprise me to see Swanner prosecuted in the future.

I'm not opining on Swanner's guilt or innocence. I'm just noting that the person behind this has not been prosecuted.

[yermom]

The link you posted talked of a man who had been subjected to various methods OUTSIDE THE USMJ standards of conduct, one of which led to his death.

According to the same article, those responsible were summarily tried, convicted, and sentenced for their crimes.

OTOH, the murderers of Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, and the christian girls who were savagely beheaded are treated as heroes by their peers.

How is any of this similar?

you think that's the only incident of torture? you think the Spanish government wants to bring Bush up on charges for fun?

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20081020/NEWS/810202960/1002/NEWS02?Title=Secret_memos_prove_Bush_endorsed_tort ure

[theresonly1OU]

you think that's the only incident of torture? you think the Spanish government wants to bring Bush up on charges for fun?

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20081020/NEWS/810202960/1002/NEWS02?Title=Secret_memos_prove_Bush_endorsed_tort ure

So your proof that Bush endorsed torture is that another country said we did?

[Frozen Sooner]

Is the Bush DOJ policy promulgated by John Yoo proof that Bush endorsed torture? I mean, I'm relatively sure we're never going to have a YouTube clip of the guy saying "Heh. Yeah. Torture them fellers" or anything of that nature.

[yermom]

did you read the link?

edit: heh, either of you

[Frozen Sooner]

Sorry, I assumed from the context of your post that the link discussed the Spanish government's attempts to prosecute Bush.

[NYC Poke]

Is the Bush DOJ policy promulgated by John Yoo proof that Bush endorsed torture? I mean, I'm relatively sure we're never going to have a YouTube clip of the guy saying "Heh. Yeah. Torture them fellers" or anything of that nature.


John Yoo worked in the Office of Legal Counsel, which effectively sets the rules for the Executive Branch. The memos may provide some legal cover for the interrogators, but probably not for those who promulgated the policies, if it should ever come to that. The only interrogation method turned down by the OLC was burying people alive (they planned to dig 'em back up before the interrogees died). I think the reasoning went that because that caused a fear of imminent death, it was therefore torture.

[Frozen Sooner]

My fault, you're right. OLC, not DOJ. Basically Yoo got presented with a wish list of things the administration wanted to do to people and worked like hell to figure out some kind of legal cover for them.

We're a little fixated on the failings of the Bush DoJ up here right now.

[NYC Poke]

My fault, you're right. OLC, not DOJ. Basically Yoo got presented with a wish list of things the administration wanted to do to people and worked like hell to figure out some kind of legal cover for them.

We're a little fixated on the failings of the Bush DoJ up here right now.


Technically, it's a part of DOJ, but it's sort of functionally separate. I believe the head of the OLC also has the title of Assistant AG or something like that. Check out the book Angler. It's about Cheney, but it goes into pretty good detail about how the OLC works.

[Frozen Sooner]

You been following the CF going on with the Stevens case? I mean, how badly does a Republican DoJ have to screw up prosecuting a Republican Senator for corruption before a Democratic DoJ has to step in and say "Wow, this thing was so bungled it was a complete miscarriage of justice."

[NYC Poke]

You been following the CF going on with the Stevens case? I mean, how badly does a Republican DoJ have to screw up prosecuting a Republican Senator for corruption before a Democratic DoJ has to step in and say "Wow, this thing was so bungled it was a complete miscarriage of justice."


I'm sure you hear more about it by virtue of your geography, but yeah, I've heard, and that was pretty bad. My only conclusion is that DOJ had just become dysfunctional. Too bad. The people I've known or worked or used to work the the U.S. Attorneys offices or with DOJ were all quality people.

[soonerscuba]

It almost as if hiring loyalists out out of a law school founded by Pat Robertson to run the DoJ backfired. Weird.

[fadada1]

my ignorant stance - all bets are off when your enemy doesn't "play by the rules". moral highground is a fallacy when war is concerned. i'm not suggesting that having naked dogpiles is an acceptable form of discipline/treatment/punishment/whatever, but most of us will never be put in a position to make a "rational" decision during war. i've done enough reading about the japanese treatment during WWII, and vietnamese during our war and previous war with the french, and pol pot in cambodia to understand that there are some evil f-ing people in this world (and apparently a hotbed of badness in SE asia). i guess my take is that when you treat us in this manner, don't expect anything less regarding our treatment of your prisoners.

btw, thanks for the info, homey.

[Harry Beanbag]

You guys have got to be ****ting me. Some random CIA dude allegedly ends up killing a terrorist and it's grounds to **** on the USA in comparison to the Bataan ****ing Death March? :confused:

[yermom]

Homey's the one drawing pretty pictures in reference to our treatment of prisoners, not me

[Harry Beanbag]

Right.

[yermom]

look, i get it. whatever the country does while your guy is in office is patriotic and just securing our freedom. it's ok.

[NYC Poke]

So your proof that Bush endorsed torture is that another country said we did?

The Spanish thing may end up being serious. If Spain issues arrest warrants, that could trigger treaty obligations to either extradite them or bring proceedings ourselves. There's also an investigation into some MI5 agents in the UK that could bring more pressure. This issue probably isn't going to go away any time soon.

[Okla-homey]

People.

srsly.

my point was, bayoneting sick and malnourished soldiers who are no longer capable of putting one foot in front of the other is not even in the same universe as humiliating Iraqis a-la Lindy England. If you don't "get" that, then you've been flippin' hopelessly brain-washed.

[Curly Bill]

The Spanish thing may end up being serious. If Spain issues arrest warrants, that could trigger treaty obligations to either extradite them or bring proceedings ourselves. There's also an investigation into some MI5 agents in the UK that could bring more pressure. This issue probably isn't going to go away any time soon.

I'll believe this is serious when I see it.

[NYC Poke]

I'll believe this is serious when I see it.

From the UN Convention Against Torture:


Article 7

1. The State Party in territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found, shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.

Article 8

1. The offences referred to in article 4 shall be deemed to be included as extraditable offences in any extradition treaty existing between States Parties. States Parties undertake to include such offences as extraditable offences in every extradition treaty to be concluded between them.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

This treaty was signed by the United States in 1988 and ratified by Congress in 1994. From Article VI of The U.S. Constitution:


This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Now, the UN articles regarding the "extradite or prosecute" issues do not appear to be discretionary. This likely means that someone with standing could petition for a writ of mandamus to force even a reluctant administration to act, a a fairly good chance at success.

I'm not saying that the so-called "Bush 6" are going to end up in a Spanish hoosegow. The theories behind charging them are a little novel. But I'm saying that from a legal standpoint, the threat of prosecution is there, and is serious.

[Curly Bill]

When we start turning over government officials to be tried in world courts is when I know we've really begun to lose it as a nation.

[yermom]

People.

srsly.

my point was, bayoneting sick and malnourished soldiers who are no longer capable of putting one foot in front of the other is not even in the same universe as humiliating Iraqis a-la Lindy England. If you don't "get" that, then you've been flippin' hopelessly brain-washed.

if that's all that was going on, i'd totally agree. people don't end up dead from humiliation, generally

[Harry Beanbag]

look, i get it. whatever the country does while your guy is in office is patriotic and just securing our freedom. it's ok.


You haven't been paying attention if you think Bush was my guy.

[Harry Beanbag]

People.

srsly.

my point was, bayoneting sick and malnourished soldiers who are no longer capable of putting one foot in front of the other is not even in the same universe as humiliating Iraqis a-la Lindy England. If you don't "get" that, then you've been flippin' hopelessly brain-washed.


Yep.

[yermom]

speaking of brainwashed...

[NYC Poke]

When we start turning over government officials to be tried in world courts is when I know we've really begun to lose it as a nation.


You don't believe the United States should follow its own laws?

[Curly Bill]

You don't believe the United States should follow its own laws?

I don't believe we should start letting other nations try our peeps. We aren't at the top of the food chain to give a rip what the Spanish or any other Eurotrash thinks.

[NYC Poke]

I don't believe we should start letting other nations try our peeps. We aren't at the top of the food chain to give a rip what the Spanish or any other Eurotrash thinks.

So that means under the UN Convention, which has been adopted as US law, we have to try 'em ourselves. And no, I'm not one of those people who want to see the guys behind bars (I think the trials would be a political disaster), I'm just looking at the legal issues.

I was really surprised that Bush didn't pardon these people to prevent this sort of thing. I'm not sure what effect a pardon would have on the "extradite or prosecute" provisions, but it would certainly cloudy the water.

[Curly Bill]

I don't know why we're even talking about it -- ain't nothing gonna happen.

[Curly Bill]

I don't know why we're even talking about it -- ain't nothing gonna happen.


...but then again we did put a socialist in the White House, so who knows what might happen...:O

[theresonly1OU]

speaking of brainwashed...

don't be so hard on yourself, yer. Obama fooled a lot of other people, too.

[yermom]

i was fooled by no one, i might have defended Obama, but i didn't promote him or anything

of course, meet the new boss, same as the old boss:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/11/bagram/index.html

who needs the Constitution?

[KC//CRIMSON]

...but then again we did put a socialist in the White House, so who knows what might happen...:O

your mind is like a parachute, it's either open or it's closed.

[mikeelikee]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/

yep, harmless stuff going on there...

If you liberals can manage moral equivocation between the tortuous murder of thousands of starved prisoners with the death of a couple of avowed terrorists who don't think twice about murdering innocents, then God have mercy on you, because you need it.

[Curly Bill]

your mind is like a parachute, it's either open or it's closed.

Hot dang, the bat-signal must have went out that Brack was in trouble over here! :D

[KC//CRIMSON]

Hot dang, the bat-signal must have went out that Brack was in trouble over here! :D


I haven't heard "hot dang" since I went to visit my grandmother in the nursing home.

Hot dang! Pass me the creamed corn, sunny!

[yermom]

If you liberals can manage moral equivocation between the tortuous murder of thousands of starved prisoners with the death of a couple of avowed terrorists who don't think twice about murdering innocents, then God have mercy on you, because you need it.

yep something happening 60 years ago that has nothing to do with anything now makes anything that our country did in the last decade perfectly fine.

i'm not drawing comparisons, i'm disagreeing with Homey's allegation that all that was involved in "losing the moral high ground" was some naked dogpiles and a couple of pictures

[SoonerBorn68]

All this BS talk is taking away from the American and Filipino soldiers who were exposed to the highest atrocities man can inflict on man & it turns into a pissing contest about politics.

Shame.

[Okla-homey]

So that means under the UN Convention, which has been adopted as US law, we have to try 'em ourselves. And no, I'm not one of those people who want to see the guys behind bars (I think the trials would be a political disaster), I'm just looking at the legal issues.

I was really surprised that Bush didn't pardon these people to prevent this sort of thing. I'm not sure what effect a pardon would have on the "extradite or prosecute" provisions, but it would certainly cloudy the water.

What forum counselor? The ICJ at the Hague? We've not (yet) accepted its compulsory jurisdiction.

ICC? Doesn't jive with American notions of due process. The Rome treaty that created the ICC, theoretically the proper forum for trial of alleged war crimes, also creates a proprio motu -- or self-initiating prosecutor -- who, on her own authority with the consent of two judges, can initiate investigations and prosecutions without referral to the court of a situation either by a government that is party to the treaty, or by the Security Council. That dog won't hunt.

[Okla-homey]

if that's all that was going on, i'd totally agree. people don't end up dead from humiliation, generally

I am aware of one obese Iraqi general who died of a cardiac infarction while incarcerated at A.G. Were there more?

[yermom]

you mean Jamadi? torturing him to death only counts if he's in top physical condition?

even if they didn't kill anyone, they were torturing people with the administration's blessing, no less. even if we are just talking about waterboarding, it's still violates our "moral high ground"

[theresonly1OU]

you mean Jamadi? torturing him to death only counts if he's in top physical condition?

even if they didn't kill anyone, they were torturing people with the administration's blessing, no less. even if we are just talking about waterboarding, it's still violates our "moral high ground"

Funny thing, that.

Wonder what Nick Berg or Daniel Pearl thought about it as the good muslim jihadist did them the solid of removing their heads from their body.

If I had to guess, I bet they were all choked up (no pun intended) at the thought of a man with the same values as the good soul decapitating them being subjected to the simulated torture of waterboarding.

The horror.

[yermom]

everyone but the Bush administration agrees that waterboarding is torture. but that isn't what we are talking about here. what is supposed to have killed the prisoner in question was "Palestinian Hanging" which is also deemed torture by the international community. of course this was after a pretty savage beating

but i can certainly see where your infantile "two wrongs make a right" philosophy works for you

[theresonly1OU]

everyone but the Bush administration agrees that waterboarding is torture. but that isn't what we are talking about here. what is supposed to have killed the prisoner in question was "Palestinian Hanging" which is also deemed torture by the international community. of course this was after a pretty savage beating

but i can certainly see where your infantile "two wrongs make a right" philosophy works for you

Because everyone knows that sawing a man's head off = simulating the sensation of drowning, right?

Thanks for pointing that out.

[yermom]

i'm going to ask that you stop posting in this thread

[Vaevictis]

They're both torture, just different kinds.

The good news about getting your head sawed off is that when it's over, it's over. The bad news is that you're dead when it's done.

The good news about waterboarding is that, if it's done right, you're not dead when it's over. The bad news about waterboarding is that, if it's done right, you're not dead when it's over.

[theresonly1OU]

i'm going to ask that you stop posting in this thread

I'm going to politely decline.

Thanks for asking though.

[SCOUT]

This thread makes me sad. What started out as a post remembering and memorializing American soldiers who suffered and died in one of the most heinous events in world history has turned into a “Why America is bad...” thread.

I understand that many of you feel that we, particularly the Bush administration, should rank among the worst in history, but I would love it if you would leave threads like this alone.

If you want to find a way to make the Bataan death march ours, or better yet George Bush's, fault I would love to see your reasoning. This notion that a dead terrorist or waterboarding is even remotely correlated to the Bataan DEATH MARCH, is inane at best.

[theresonly1OU]

They're both torture, just different kinds.

The good news about getting your head sawed off is that when it's over, it's over. The bad news is that you're dead when it's done.

The good news about waterboarding is that, if it's done right, you're not dead when it's over. The bad news about waterboarding is that, if it's done right, you're not dead when it's over.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Vaevictis]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yeah, I guess I'll just agree with every precedent the US ever set on the matter before the Bush administration, and you can agree with the one that was set when it became more convenient to relabel it as "not torture."

Really, if you want to label it as "not torture," go ahead, just no outrage when you see a video of someone doing it to our guys, k?

[soonerscuba]

We should probably forgive the Japanese that were tried and convicted for war crimes for doing it as well, since it's not torture now.

[KABOOKIE]

Mmmmm. Watching a video of an American getting their head sawed off or going through waterboarding. Tough ****ing choice. Most panzy assed Americans wouldn't know real torture. Like the Battan death march. Oh wait. :rolleyes:

[theresonly1OU]

Really, if you want to label it as "not torture," go ahead, just no outrage when you see a video of someone doing it to our guys, k?

No problem.

As soon as I see a video posted on a jihidist website where someone is enduring the horrible torture that is waterboarding instead of getting decapitated, I'll be the happiest one in the room, believe me.

[theresonly1OU]

Mmmmm. Watching a video of an American getting their head sawed off or going through waterboarding. Tough ****ing choice. Most panzy assed Americans wouldn't know real torture. Like the Battan death march. Oh wait. :rolleyes:

But I'm sure somewhere, one of our GIs hurt one of the enemies wittle fweelings, so they cancel each other out.

Right?

[47straight]

The OLC? Oh, that thing that our AG ignores when it doesn't give him the answers he wants?

[Scott D]

This thread has turned into the kind of bull**** that makes me sad that the South Oval has become what it has become.

[NYC Poke]

What forum counselor? The ICJ at the Hague? We've not (yet) accepted its compulsory jurisdiction.

ICC? Doesn't jive with American notions of due process. The Rome treaty that created the ICC, theoretically the proper forum for trial of alleged war crimes, also creates a proprio motu -- or self-initiating prosecutor -- who, on her own authority with the consent of two judges, can initiate investigations and prosecutions without referral to the court of a situation either by a government that is party to the treaty, or by the Security Council. That dog won't hunt.

Nice arguments against extradition gussied up with $2 Latin. But you haven't addressed the other side of the equation if we choose not to extradite. Under the UN Convention, which is U.S. law, we have to prosecute. The dog's still a-huntin'.

[theresonly1OU]

Nice arguments against extradition gussied up with $2 Latin. But you haven't addressed the other side of the equation if we choose not to extradite. Under the UN Convention, which is U.S. law, we have to prosecute. The dog's still a-huntin'.

What a great idea it was to take the decisions made by a convention chartered by a confirmed communist spy and make them apply to citizens of the United States.

srsly.

[JohnnyMack]

A few things:

1. I'm agreeing with Harry way too much lately. Makes me want to barf.
2. Homey, you do too much lawyer talkin' lately.
3. The torture of any POW (or enemy combatant) is wrong.
4. The treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib, while offensive, in no way compares to the Bataan Death March.

[Okla-homey]

see below.


A few things:


2. Homey, you do too much lawyer talkin' lately.
Occupational hazard I guess. I used to cuss a lot too when I was in the service. ;)
3. The torture of any POW (or enemy combatant) is wrong.
Reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes "torture"
4. The treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib, while offensive, in no way compares to the Bataan Death March.
I agree, and that was my point.

[NYC Poke]

What a great idea it was to take the decisions made by a convention chartered by a confirmed communist spy and make them apply to citizens of the United States.

srsly.


The Convention, like it or not, is law in the United States.

[Frozen Sooner]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-13/the-bush-six-to-be-indicted/

John Yoo and Alberto Gonzales among those to be indicted.

[KC//CRIMSON]

*pins dropping*

[Okla-homey]

Nice arguments against extradition gussied up with $2 Latin. But you haven't addressed the other side of the equation if we choose not to extradite. Under the UN Convention, which is U.S. law, we have to prosecute. The dog's still a-huntin'.

I get the "international law is US law" bumpersticker, and there is a grain of truth to the statement, but, are you actually of the opinion a treaty obligation can compel a federal criminal prosecution?

[NYC Poke]

I get the "international law is US law" bumpersticker, and there is a grain of truth to the statement, but, are you actually of the opinion a treaty obligation can compel a federal criminal prosecution?


My reading of the Convention does not appear to allow for much prosecutorial discretion. The government is required to "submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution." We can argue about what that means specifically, but as a practical matter, at the least I would think that DOJ would have to at least bring the case before a grand jury.* I also think that a person with standing (and I'm not up enough on standing jurisprudence to know whom this would be) could successfully petition for a writ of mandamus to do this.


*I'm enough of a realist to know that a reluctant government could effectively hinder prosecution. While I'm sure that the attorneys assigned to the case would pursue it zealously, the higher-ups could mess with their funding, not allowing them access to the resources they fully need.

[C&CDean]

So, what I'm getting out of this thread is that:

a) George W. Bush invented torture and was the only U.S. President to ever condone/endorse/authorize/agree with it's use. Interesting.

b) Y'all are a bunch of hopeless ****wads who can **** up a perfectly good remember the Bataan heroes with a bunch of lawyerin' talk and left/right wing zealousness. Sad.

c) Many of you who are complaining the most about "torture" never spent one second wearing the uniform of this country defending your right to be a dumbass.

d) In times of war, with your fellow soldiers' lives or the military advantage on the line, torture is justified. Disagree if you must.

e) Sawing off someone's head because they're Jewish/American/anything at all is not torture. It's just murder. Anybody who tries to lump these 2 completely separate deals into one is beyond blind.

[NYC Poke]

What's wrong with lawyerin' talk, other than that it's boring?


Never mind. :(