Change I can Believe In...

[Okla-homey]

My morning paper reports the President has parted company with the education lobby and the educrat luminati on;

1) Merit pay for teachers
2) A longer school day
3) Roll out more charter schools free of state-imposed educrats' regulations

He wants all three. Me likey

Unfortunately, he was silent on the need for year-round school. Maybe someday. Still, I'l take the three above and put them in the "BHO good things" column.


President calls for merit pay for teachers
He also favors the expansion of charter schools and longer school days.

By LIBBY QUAID Associated Press
Published: 3/11/2009 2:27 AM
Last Modified: 3/11/2009 4:22 AM

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama called for tying teachers' pay to students' performance and expanding innovative charter schools Tuesday, embracing ideas that have provoked hostility from members of teachers unions.

He also suggested longer school days— and years — to help America's children compete in the world.

In his first big speech on education, Obama said the United States must drastically improve student achievement to regain lost international standing.

"The future belongs to the nation that best educates its citizens," he said. "We have everything we need to be that nation ... and yet, despite resources that are unmatched anywhere in the world, we have let our grades slip, our schools crumble, our teacher quality fall short and other nations outpace us."

His solutions include teacher pay and charter school proposals that have met resistance among members of teachers unions, which constitute an important segment of the Democratic Party.

Obama acknowledged that conflict, saying, "Too many supporters of my party have resisted the idea of rewarding excellence in teaching with extra pay, even though we know it can make a difference in the classroom."

Obama addressed the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a setting intended to underscore the need to boost academic performance, especially among Latino and black children who sometimes lag behind their white counterparts.

Despite their history on the issues, union leaders publicly welcomed Obama's words, saying it seems clear he wants to include them in his decisions in a way President George W. Bush did not.

"We finally have an education president," said Randi Weingarten, president of the 1.4 million-member American Federation of Teachers. "We really embrace the fact that he's talked about both shared responsibility and making sure there is a voice for teachers, something that was totally lacking in the last eight years."

The president of the 3.2 million-member National Education Association, Dennis van Roekel said, "President Obama always says he will do it with educators, not to them."

Van Roekel insisted that Obama's call for teacher performance pay does not necessarily mean raises or bonuses would be tied to student test scores. It could mean more pay for board-certified teachers or for those who work in high-poverty, hard-to-staff schools, he said.

However, administration officials said later they do mean higher pay based on student achievement, among other things.

"What you want to do is really identify the best and brightest by a range of metrics, including student achievement," Education Secretary Arne Duncan told The Associated Press in a brief interview.

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said certification is part of the mix. "But the president believes that school systems can work with teachers and parents to come up with a system that rewards our best teachers with more pay for their excellence in the classroom."

There has been considerable friction over charter schools, which are publicly funded but operate independently, free from some of the rules that constrain regular schools. Many teachers are concerned that such schools drain money and talent from regular schools.

However, Obama said state limits on numbers of charter schools aren't "good for our children, our economy or our country." He said many of the innovations in education today are happening in charter schools.

None of what Obama outlined Tuesday was new; his education agenda reflects his campaign platform.

Broadly speaking, Obama wants changes at every level from before kindergarten through college.

Obama also wants kids to spend more time in school, with longer school days, school weeks and school years — a position he admitted will make him less popular with his school-age daughters.


Among the principles Obama laid out were:
Improving pre-kindergarten programs, including $5 billion in the stimulus plan to grow Head Start, expand child care access and do more for children with special needs. He also said he would offer 55,000 first-time parents regular visits from trained nurses.

Reducing student dropout rates. To students, Obama said: “Don’t even think about dropping out of school.” But he said that reducing the dropout rates also requires turning around the worst schools, something he asked lawmakers, parents and teachers to make “our collective responsibility as Americans.”

Repeating his call for everyone to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training, with the goal of the highest proportion of college graduates in the world by the year 2020.

By LIBBY QUAID Associated Press

[JohnnyMack]

Didn't I read something recently about our (almost worthless) state legislature working on extending the school year here in OK?

[47straight]

Interesting.

What's the word on making it easier to fire the bad ones?

Not that there are any bad teachers at all in the public school system, I'm just talking hypothetically, of course.

[47straight]

On the downside, looks like he is focusing like everyone who's come before him on early education. Of course it's important, but we do relatively well on early education through elementary school.

We starting losing kids in great numbers right around middle school. I'd like to see the biggest new efforts go into grades 6-9.

[texas bandman]

In Texas, we had merit pay back about ten years ago (career ladder). It was based on your evaluations and was a sign of how far your head was up your principal's butt. Of course, I'm just bitter since some really POOR teachers were advanced due to being a buddy to the boss and I was teaching my butt off rebuilding a program that was terrible and got left off each year. I was glad when it went away.

Now the biggest problem with merit pay for teachers is "what criteria are you going to use?" If you are going to use standardized test scores, are you going to go on high scores = more money? Then teacher's will want the best and brightest students. If you go on test score improvement from one year to the next, you want kids that have room for more improvement. Those AP students who blow the top out of every test will keep you from receiving the merit pay. And what about those teachers that don't teach subjects that are tested. Contrary to popular belief enrichment and vocational teachers are important in many students lives. Merit pay sounds good, but is a really difficult thing to implement.

[texas bandman]

Firing teachers in Texas is not easy, but not impossible. Unfortunately, most administrator's don't have the b@lls to go through the process. First if a teacher has bad evaluations, then the principal institutes a plan of improvement, after the teacher has had time to correct deficiencies, if plan not met then you can be fired if the board and superintendent have the fortitude to do what's best for the kids. Most teachers that get a plan of improvement see the writing on the wall and resign. Unfortunately these teachers then go to another district begin again. And districts will hire them because there is just not enough teachers.

And I know that throwing money at education is not all the answer, but if pay was better then maybe the best and brightest would consider teaching. Beginning teachers in Texas make $27000 a year and after 20 years of teaching your salary maxes out at $44,000 a year. (I know because my salary has been the same for last six years.) Paying teachers a professional wage would help.

[JLEW1818]

How does this fix the economy? I love Obama trying to do this, but economy first right?

[Okla-homey]

How does this fix the economy? I love Obama trying to do this, but economy first right?

I actually like his reasoning on that. During the Civil War, we kept building intercontinental railroads and finished the capitol dome. The point being, we are Americans dammit, and we're big and bad enough to fix several problems at once. At least thats my interpretation. Of course, it all comes to nothing if they continue to let this Geitner guy have a microphone. Everytime that guy speaks, the Dow drops 500 points.;)

[walkoffsooner]

The merit pay sounds great. Problem is it will be as crooked as a snake will not work. A total waste of time. They took the job if they aren't trying to get best possible results for the pay they are getting fire them. It will give the ones left incentive.

[Ike]

Now the biggest problem with merit pay for teachers is "what criteria are you going to use?" If you are going to use standardized test scores, are you going to go on high scores = more money? Then teacher's will want the best and brightest students. If you go on test score improvement from one year to the next, you want kids that have room for more improvement. Those AP students who blow the top out of every test will keep you from receiving the merit pay. And what about those teachers that don't teach subjects that are tested. Contrary to popular belief enrichment and vocational teachers are important in many students lives. Merit pay sounds good, but is a really difficult thing to implement.

I agree that this is the key sticking point to merit based pay, but I tend to agree with homey that "We're Americans damnit...we can solve any problem we want to solve". So in that regard, we can solve the problem of "what criteria are you going to use?"...We may have to get a little creative in doing so. It may need to take into account multiple inputs....not just test scores, but faculty evaluations, student evaluations, and parent evaluations. Maybe rather than letting the discriminator of merit fluctuate wildly from year to year, as test scores can, give teachers a wide variety of types of students over multiple years and take a sort of rolling average over 5 years or so. You could also possibly tie in how well students are prepared for their classes in the next year. Did they retain much of the knowledge you imparted, or did they forget it all over the summer? Sure, part of that is based purely on the student in question, but a large part is based on how effectively the lessons were given.

With any one of those criteria of merit, there may be issues , but when all of them, or even most of them seem to look good for a teacher, it's probably because that teacher is doing something well.

[NormanPride]

Scary deal. On one hand, I think it's great, but on the other hand, it just looks like another tool for the administration to abuse.

Really, I'd like to see some restructuring in schools. If you make wages competitive with other jobs, then more people will want to be teachers. Then, it will be easier to flush out the bad ones. I realize that schools are already strapped for cash as it is, but if you can somehow cut down the overhead in administration or other areas then it should open up money where it really matters: teachers. Equipment is one thing, but a great teacher can create a wonderful learning environment from very little.

[yermom]

yeah, i'm thinking that could be rough regardless. i mean if you are the Special Ed. teacher or teaching the "at risk" kids or whatever it's going to be hard to get anywhere with test scores

also if you are stuck teaching the required courses vs. electives that people actually want to take things could be different

personally, i'd like to see more emphasis on math and science.


also, less rigidity. let people test out of requirements and do more at their own pace. if someone is done at 16, let them go, if it takes til 20, that's fine too. make it actually mean something to graduate from high school.

[Frozen Sooner]

also, less rigidity. let people test out of requirements and do more at their own pace. if someone is done at 16, let them go, if it takes til 20, that's fine too. make it actually mean something to graduate from high school.

This is something that I wish was implemented better.

Several school districts have what's called an "optional" program where kids work at their own pace. It's meant to be an opportunity for kids to accelerate their learning. Unfortunately, it's used as a dumping ground for kids with behavioral problems because parents don't want to believe that little Jimmy is just a ****head-they'd rather believe that he's not challenged by his schoolwork.

For the kids that SHOULD be in this program, it can be really awesome. I knew kids that were reading Edith Hamilton in 2nd grade, and other kids that were starting Geometry in the 6th grade.

[SoonerJack]

BHO should leave education decisions to the states. Every time the fed sticks their stinking nose into anything they never get out of it. They'll say, "you must do this" but provide no funding to do that.

Merit pay probably not a bad idea in principle, but which measure do you use?

Increasing the school day? Again, if you ask teachers to teach longer, they're going to expect to be compensated for it. My bet says that BHO provides no funding.

Charter schools? Many states have them. Missouri does. Do they work? Sometimes. Why? They don't have to follow the rules that public schools do. Take care of the special needs kids? Nope, not at charters. Public schools have to take everybody that walks through the door, no matter what sort of baggage they bring with them.

I guess as long as he is going to dictate how public schools are operated, then he should go ahead and demand that all the people that create children take care of them and be responsible for their up-bringin'. That would actually help a great deal. :rolleyes:

[TMcGee86]

Firing teachers in Texas is not easy, but not impossible. Unfortunately, most administrator's don't have the b@lls to go through the process. First if a teacher has bad evaluations, then the principal institutes a plan of improvement, after the teacher has had time to correct deficiencies, if plan not met then you can be fired if the board and superintendent have the fortitude to do what's best for the kids. Most teachers that get a plan of improvement see the writing on the wall and resign. Unfortunately these teachers then go to another district begin again. And districts will hire them because there is just not enough teachers.

And I know that throwing money at education is not all the answer, but if pay was better then maybe the best and brightest would consider teaching. Beginning teachers in Texas make $27000 a year and after 20 years of teaching your salary maxes out at $44,000 a year. (I know because my salary has been the same for last six years.) Paying teachers a professional wage would help.


This is not true for all of Texas. First, you are right it's hard to fire a teacher, but all they really have to do is not invite the teacher back the next year. It's the way my wife's district "fires" their teachers, just dont renew their contract at the end of the semester.

And teacher pay does not always begin at 27 and certinaly doesnt max out at 44k nor does it take 20 yrs. Maybe in your district, but my wife makes more than 44k now and she's only been a teacher for 6 years.

You are right though, it does max out eventually.

[Frozen Sooner]

Unfortunately, he was silent on the need for year-round school. Maybe someday. Still, I'l take the three above and put them in the "BHO good things" column.


Obama also wants kids to spend more time in school, with longer school days, school weeks and school years — a position he admitted will make him less popular with his school-age daughters.


Not quite silent and a step in the right direction. The United States is no longer an agrarian economy with a need for children to help out around the farm. As we've discussed though-if you extend the school year, you better darn well increase teacher pay.

Too, this helps out low-income families by obviating the need for spendy day-care for children in the summe.

I'm behind the idea of compensating good teachers on some sort of results matrix. I'm a bit leery of how the matrix is constructed, but I'm willing to see how it goes.

One major problem with the test-score-only model is that there's some subjects where you simply can't "teach to the test." How does a standardized test check to see if someone can put together a coherent sentence? Did a language arts teacher do a bad job teaching Shakespeare if the test has a question on Hamlet and the teacher taught King Lear instead? Do we standardize national curricula to the degree where every kid in every language arts class is reading the same thing? That seems like kind of a waste if you have a teacher who, say, did a thesis on the Romantic Poets but the course only covers Poe.

[SicEmBaylor]

I agree with all of these proposals. The best thing to do is eliminate all government indoctrination centers/public education, but short of that...

[yermom]

it's in the country's best interest though. we can't continue to suck in education compared to everywhere else in the civilized world

[texas bandman]

personally, i'd like to see more emphasis on math and science.

Not me. In Texas every child is now required to take 4 years of math and science. Now for some that is good thing, but there are kids with other talents and gifts. These are now being pushed to the side to get the 4x4 requirements.

Let me tell you my story. In 1974, when I was a sophomore in high school, my guidance counselor pushed me to take Alg. 2 and Chemistry since I was in the GT program in JH. After 3 weeks, I was failing both and I had decided that school wasn't for me. I was headed to the office to drop out of school since I knew I was a total failure and I wouldn't graduate anyway. Luckily my band director got wind of my plans and he called me in his office and came up with an alternative plan. He said "drop Chemistry and Algebra and take music theory and jazz band". Luckily in 1975 you could do this. Within 3 months I was determined to be a band director. I graduated in the top 10% of my HS graduating class and got my Music education degree with distinction from OU and have been gainfully employed as a band director for the past 26 years. If I was going to school now they would have forced me to take those classes pass or fail (most likely fail), come hell or high water. I don't know how many kids don't have the opportunities that I had due to the cookie cutter educational system we now have in place.

Kids have different gifts and talents that need to be developed. Sure math and science develop higher level thinking skills, but so does many other studies including music. I wish we could fit the education system to the kid, not the kid to the education system.

[yermom]

well, i was basing that on my experience in Oklahoma 15 years ago...

but the lack of basic math and science knowledge i see in adults/college students astounds me

and failing a class or two never hurt no one ;)

[texas bandman]

well, i was basing that on my experience in Oklahoma 15 years ago...

but the lack of basic math and science knowledge i see in adults/college students astounds me

and failing a class or two never hurt no one ;)

Didn't say anything about basic math and science. Kids only know how to pass test now. They can't balance a checkbook or count change. They don't have basic skills but they can tell you how to figure out the answer on the test without actually understanding the concept.

Our education system is majorly screwed!

[yermom]

i didn't say i wanted them to pass a test ;)

i want them to know math and science

[Frozen Sooner]

I want tellers who can accurately figure out the daily interest on a loan given the principal balance and the APR.

I want baggers at the grocery store to know that you don't bag bleach with chicken.

I want anyone who possesses a high school diploma to be able to know the components of a complete sentence, to be able to correctly conjugate the verb "to be," and to be able to write a persuasive essay that is both structured and logical.

[yermom]

your crazy

[Crucifax Autumn]

I want baggers at the grocery store to know that you don't bag bleach with chicken.



I'm one of those a-holes that sorts everything as I unload the cart. Somehow these morons can still pull the chicken and bleach thing. I actually thank the ones who do it right...you know, that one in 1000 trips through the checkout.

[Ike]

I want tellers who can accurately figure out the daily interest on a loan given the principal balance and the APR.

I want baggers at the grocery store to know that you don't bag bleach with chicken.

I want anyone who possesses a high school diploma to be able to know the components of a complete sentence, to be able to correctly conjugate the verb "to be," and to be able to write a persuasive essay that is both structured and logical.

I want to see pre-med students able to multiply and divide by 10 without the use of a calculator...

[SCOUT]

Finding a merit based system is not an impossible task. There are a host of jobs that don't have directly measurable criteria yet manage to have a merit based system. I am not saying that it wouldn't be difficult, but being difficult shouldn't be a reason not to try.