saxeT academic smack

[Socrefbek]

The next time a horn fan starts spouting off about academics refer them to this ...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6294436.html

:D

[sooneron]

Wow, 46th. To be honest, I think it's a good thing to put less emphasis on these tests. All that we are preparing kid for is taking more tests. It's become nothing more than a pissing contest. Texass, however, does love a pissing contest. More epic fail for NCLB.

[ouleaf]

Not sure why this is on the football board.

I agree that this type of testing should pretty much be done away with. I think it is a big part of the problem of the public education system. All these tests and most public high schools do is reward memorization and cramming, not learning.

That was my biggest problem with the HS i went to in Texas. The way classes were scheduled and organized, it didn't properly prepare you for how to study and learn in college. You became so used to being lazy in HS that when you get to college it kicks your butt b/c you actually have to work to earn a decent grade.

I do hope the public school system is revamped and focuses more getting kids to learn. Not quickly memorize and then forget.

[Beef]

I think that spelling Texas correctly in an academic smack thread would be appropriate.

[MI Sooner]

Do Texas (meaning UT) fans talk smack about relative academic success of high schools in Texas?

I've heard them talk smack about academics at UT versus OU, but never about high schools in Texas.

[OUMallen]

The next time a horn fan starts spouting off about academics refer them to this ...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6294436.html

:D

They're usually talking about the UNIVERSITY, not high school test scores. And when it comes to their university, they're right. And what a bunch of students on-campus in Austin has to do with their scholarship football athletes I'll never know.

[starclassic tama]

yeah UT unfortunately is a great school. but i do think a lot of their rankings come with the fact that they have a much greater population, thus more students applying and they can be more picky with admissions standards. it's not like OU is a community college like they act.

Texas ranked 46th in the country last year in the Scholastic Assessment Test scores and last among all states in the percentage of adult population with a high school diploma.

kinda puts all that mobilehoma talk to rest huh?

[OUMallen]

yeah UT unfortunately is a great school. but i do think a lot of their rankings come with the fact that they have a much greater population, thus more students applying and they can be more picky with admissions standards. it's not like OU is a community college like they act.

Texas ranked 46th in the country last year in the Scholastic Assessment Test scores and last among all states in the percentage of adult population with a high school diploma.

kinda puts all that mobilehoma talk to rest huh?

Nothing unfortunate about UT being a great academic institution. UT does have more students applying as a combination of being better and higher population, and you're right, OU does quite well in its own right, but could be better too.

As far as them attacking our populace, you're right- we should just let the GED-wannabes' attacks fall on deaf ears. :)

[Leroy Lizard]

UT has a number of satellite campuses (e.g, UT-Arlington) that they can send their less-desirable students. OU has no such luxury.

But in terms of undergraduate teaching (which is what really matters), OU is probably better. You will likely get a better education as an undergrad at OU than UT.

[Leroy Lizard]

BTW,those that engage in academic smack are usually the types that I wouldn't want in my business. If you have to lean on your university's supposed reputation, then how good could you really be?

[Dan Thompson]

Man, that's pretty bad, to have Texas ahead of California! California is 48th.

[Jacie]

Not sure why this is on the football board.

I agree that this type of testing should pretty much be done away with. I think it is a big part of the problem of the public education system. All these tests and most public high schools do is reward memorization and cramming, not learning.

That was my biggest problem with the HS i went to in Texas. The way classes were scheduled and organized, it didn't properly prepare you for how to study and learn in college. You became so used to being lazy in HS that when you get to college it kicks your butt b/c you actually have to work to earn a decent grade.

I do hope the public school system is revamped and focuses more getting kids to learn. Not quickly memorize and then forget.

I doubt that there is a high school in this (or maybe any other) country that prepares kids for college. Certainly, college doesn't prepare students for what comes next (aka the real world . . . if they did, no one would want to attend).

[MI Sooner]

I doubt that there is a high school in this (or maybe any other) country that prepares kids for college. Certainly, college doesn't prepare students for what comes next (aka the real world . . . if they did, no one would want to attend).

I agree with the second part of your quote, that college doesn't prepare people for the real world, but disagree with the first part. I though the same classes I took in HS and college (stats, English, physics) were more rigorous in HS.

[Leroy Lizard]

A college can prepare a student for the real world if the student is willing to work hard and take courses that are not necessarily required for graduation. I hear this all the time: "College didn't teach me how to ____." Well, there was a course that taught ____, but you didn't take it because it wasn't required.

From an undergraduate perspective, the difference between one college and another is the devotion of the faculty to student learning.

This is why the academic smack is so misguided. Does anyone really think English at UT is taught better than at OU? Why would it?

[Soonerman08]

Nothing unfortunate about UT being a great academic institution. UT does have more students applying as a combination of being better and higher population, and you're right, OU does quite well in its own right, but could be better too.

As far as them attacking our populace, you're right- we should just let the GED-wannabes' attacks fall on deaf ears. :)

As a whole UT might be more sound academically. OU does excel at certain academic fields such as Petroleum Engineering and their Meteorology program is the tops in the world. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

As a whole UT might be more sound academically.

Exactly what do you mean by that?

[oudivesherpa]

After teaching in Texas high schools I can tell you most teachers hate the TAKS tests and would like no standardize tests. Of course, without testing Vince Young would be the valiedicktorian (Note: for the irony imparied,A&M grads and annal compulsives everywhere that's valedictorian).

[Half a Hundred]

There's no point in having this discussion. As long as the State of Texas has the PUF, and oil is being pumped out of the ground in the Permian Basin, their flagship universities will always have a high profile. They can afford it.

It's too bad that due to the anti-intellectual populism of the early statehood days, that Oklahoma didn't enact something similar. Think of the possibilities for OU with the oil money of the old days, considering that OU would have likely had more money than UT to work with per capita.

[soonerboomer93]

yeah UT unfortunately is a great school. but i do think a lot of their rankings come with the fact that they have a much greater population, thus more students applying and they can be more picky with admissions standards. it's not like OU is a community college like they act.

Texas ranked 46th in the country last year in the Scholastic Assessment Test scores and last among all states in the percentage of adult population with a high school diploma.

kinda puts all that mobilehoma talk to rest huh?

actually, that's kind of a misnomer
A texas high school student graduating in the top 10% of their class is guaranteed admittance to a state school. This means they have to accept any student in that top 10% who's from texas. They can be picky on their out of state students though. They also have the affirmative action standards they have to meet.

[Leroy Lizard]

After teaching in Texas high schools I can tell you most teachers hate the TAKS tests and would like no standardize tests.

Sure, just like most people don't want anyone holding them accountable.

If not TAKS, then what? (I know, I know... we should just take their word for it.)

[starclassic tama]

well to be guaranteed admittance into OU all you need is a 3.0 GPA and a 24 on the ACT. so UT has a lot more pull there.

[Vaevictis]

Sure, just like most people don't want anyone holding them accountable.

If not TAKS, then what? (I know, I know... we should just take their word for it.)

Hell if I know, but I took TAAS, which preceded TAKS. It caused a lot more harm than good. It was a complete joke of a test, and we spent multiple semesters "preparing" for the exam.

This primarily consisted of learning how to take the exam and maximize your score, and was done in our English and Mathematics classes... instead of teaching us actual English and math.

[Leroy Lizard]

That isn't the test's fault; that's just bad teaching. After all, if your students are going to be tested on solving equations, shouldn't you teach students to solve equations?

How complicated could it really be to prepare students for a math test? The state tells you which topics will be covered and in what proportion. Teach those topics and teach them well, and your students should do okay. I am not sure how I can trick students into "maximizing" their score without actually teaching them the subject.

Here is a set of released questions from prior TAKS tests: http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/student.assessment/resources/release/taks/2006/grxltaksjuly.pdf.

I don't see many joke questions.

Oklahoma's state tests are quite good, btw.

[UTgolfer]

UT has a number of satellite campuses (e.g, UT-Arlington) that they can send their less-desirable students. OU has no such luxury.


A technical point only. You are mis-informed as to how the admissions process works at UT and the other campuses within the UT System. There are completely seperate admissions procedures for each university and admission to one does not equal admission to all. Also, admission does not equal access to your first-choice for a major field of study. Several colleges at UT have a seperate admissions process and while being in the 10% of your high school class may enable you to become a student it does not guaranty that you will be able to study the field of your choice.

[Leroy Lizard]

A technical point only. You are mis-informed as to how the admissions process works at UT and the other campuses within the UT System. There are completely seperate admissions procedures for each university and admission to one does not equal admission to all.

I never said it did. When I said "send," I wasn't being literal. Maybe I should have used "applicants" rather than "students." I am saying that the University of Texas is under far less pressure to admit students with lower class rankings because there are far more lower-level schools for students to attend. In OU, you have OU and OSU. Sure, OU can decide to accept only the top 10%, but where are the other students going to go? OU has a responsibility to the state of Oklahoma to provide education to its citizens. It would be irresponsible to shut out a large percentage of the population that could succeed academically.

Consider California. The UC system is highly selective, but that is because California has a huge (and I mean HUGE) community college and California State University system. In Oklahoma, OU bears the brunt of the education load.

The whole issue is silly, anyway. You go to a university to get a quality education, which comes down mostly to the faculty's devotion to teaching and the opportunity to engage in learning experiences such as research or internships. In that respect, I see no reason to believe that UT offers a better quality education than OU. If anything, the opposite probably holds.

Want a crappy undergraduate education? Go to Harvard.

[UTgolfer]

I agree its a silly issue and while you think OU offers a better undergraduate experience I would disagree...so no worries...we agree to disagree and move on.

I would take issue however with your comment about UT being under less pressure to admit student with lower class rankings. I assume UT and OU have the same mission and that is to educate the students of their respective states. However UT is under ever-increasing pressure and one need only look at population growth to see what I mean. From 2000 thru July 2008 Texas' population grew 16.7% which equated to 3.48 million people...or an amount equal to the entire population in the state of Oklahoma in 2000. There is a tremendous amount of pressure to increase funding and modify the admissions process at UT and the other institutions in the UT System especially in the face of a shortage of qualified nurses and teachers.

Again...not trying to be an *** but articulate a different point of view.

Is it football season yet?

[Leroy Lizard]

I agree its a silly issue and while you think OU offers a better undergraduate experience I would disagree...so no worries...we agree to disagree and move on.

If a student is highly driven to get the best education he or she can, they will. And a slacker won't do well no matter where he goes.

When I hire, the applicant's university does not factor one iota. Few employers I know give a care. It all comes down to what they can do for the company.


From 2000 thru July 2008 Texas' population grew 16.7% which equated to 3.48 million people...or an amount equal to the entire population in the state of Oklahoma in 2000. There is a tremendous amount of pressure to increase funding and modify the admissions process at UT and the other institutions in the UT System especially in the face of a shortage of qualified nurses and teachers.

Well, I think you will find UT loosening its requirements in the coming years. But keep in mind that the additional population growth is largely a result of migrants moving in from south of the border. Few of them will be applying to UT, at least for quite awhile.

[UTgolfer]

Well, I think you will find UT loosening its requirements in the coming years. But keep in mind that the additional population growth is largely a result of migrants moving in from south of the border. Few of them will be applying to UT, at least for quite awhile.


Actually the opposite is about to occur. UT's President has lobbied the Legislature very actively the last two legislative sessions to remove the 10% rule all together or raise the bar to 5-7% which will allow UT to become far more selective. Again its a function of shortages in the workplace and population growth. Texas is projected to add 12.5 million people from 2000-2030 and the current structuring and funding of public universities has to change. There is a healthy debate ongoing about state support for an additional "Tier 1" university to accomodate these pressures. As a taxpayer, I would hope that the state would adopt the California model but that requires vision and long-term planning which are lacking in most politicians. If anything it is getting more and more difficult to gain admission and nothing on the horizon indicates otherwise.

Not attempting to de-value a degree from OU. Everything I have read about Boren indicates that OU and the OU educational experience has flourished since he became President of OU.

[JLEW1818]

Not to defend texas or to sound racist, but a lot of the reason is demographics.

[Leroy Lizard]

Actually the opposite is about to occur. UT's President has lobbied the Legislature very actively the last two legislative sessions to remove the 10% rule all together or raise the bar to 5-7% which will allow UT to become far more selective. Again its a function of shortages in the workplace and population growth. Texas is projected to add 12.5 million people from 2000-2030 and the current structuring and funding of public universities has to change. There is a healthy debate ongoing about state support for an additional "Tier 1" university to accomodate these pressures. As a taxpayer, I would hope that the state would adopt the California model but that requires vision and long-term planning which are lacking in most politicians. If anything it is getting more and more difficult to gain admission and nothing on the horizon indicates otherwise.

California is also putting the screws to the admissions because of the economy. It used to be that getting into a Cal State University was automatic. Not anymore. Too many people, not enough slots. Texas appears to have the same problem.

To a certain extent, that is a good thing. Maybe public schools will reevaluate the importance of good preparation instead of assuming that any ole' crappy education will do.


Not attempting to de-value a degree from OU. Everything I have read about Boren indicates that OU and the OU educational experience has flourished since he became President of OU.

OU certainly worked for me, but I only attended grad school in Norman.

[jkjsooner]

That isn't the test's fault; that's just bad teaching. After all, if your students are going to be tested on solving equations, shouldn't you teach students to solve equations?

How complicated could it really be to prepare students for a math test? The state tells you which topics will be covered and in what proportion. Teach those topics and teach them well, and your students should do okay. I am not sure how I can trick students into "maximizing" their score without actually teaching them the subject.

Here is a set of released questions from prior TAKS tests: http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/student.assessment/resources/release/taks/2006/grxltaksjuly.pdf.

I don't see many joke questions.

Oklahoma's state tests are quite good, btw.

I few points here:

1. You state that it's not the tests fault but the teacher's fault? Who cares? If the system does not promote a high level of learning, you can place the blame wherever you like but in the end the system is flawed and needs to be changed. And when you say that it's the teacher's fault, how do you identify those teacher's and hold them accountable? What if the teacher is really good at coaching for the test so his/her students score well even though their actual academic progress is sup-par.

2. You say teach the topics on the test and teach them well. Well, that's the problem. From what I've heard, if something is on the test it is not taught. Math is probably not the best example to give as a standarized math test can probably cover a good variety of topics and there probably is a fairly good guarantee that a student who scores well on the math portion is fairly competent in that area. This is not as true for other areas.

My brother has brought up the issue quite a few times. Many times he's asked his oldest son about some topic and the response was, "We don't learn that because it is not on the standardized test."

3. There is a lot you can do other than learning the actual topic to prepare a student for the test. There is a general test taking skill. For example, I was a little obsessive when taking these tests. My tendency was to double and triple check a question before going on to the next one. That will not yield a good result as most who do that will not finish their section. It takes time to learn how to correctly pace yourself. Teachers will have their students practicing tests quite a few times which can take considerable class time which could be used to learn the actual class material.

I am a fan of standardized tests as I knew too many people who could memorize something (or some procedure) for a test but did not really understand the material and would do poorly on standardized tests. However, that doesn't mean that the system we have now is not broken and saying it's the teacher's fault is not sufficient as it offers no way to solve the problem.

[OUAlumni1990]

Those rankings that are in USNEWS are more or less bunk. They mean nothing. They are usually based on $$$. I judge a school by its class and how well they do afterwards. Having said that, I can't think of one single engineering grad from OU that is not doing well. UT and A&M grads tend to do better down here, but I think that has more to do with this is their home turf and they have a much stronger network than OU grads do. And lets face it, Texas is a hotbed for technical jobs. Especially Houston. But I believe that OU is a good school. I've been to a community college before OU, and trust me, OU is heads and shoulders more difficult than a community college. I think OU alumni stack up pretty well with the competition. And UT is no where near the Ivy league public school they claim to be. I've worked with MIT grads before, and trust me, there is no comparison.

[badger]

California is also putting the screws to the admissions because of the economy. It used to be that getting into a Cal State University was automatic. Not anymore. Too many people, not enough slots. Texas appears to have the same problem.

I heard about this too, that they're capping freshmen classes extensively across the board, but at the same time, students that are already in are not getting the boot.


well to be guaranteed admittance into OU all you need is a 3.0 GPA and a 24 on the ACT. so UT has a lot more pull there.
Oklahoma doesn't have the 10 percent rule, however, where the top 10 percent of every Texas high school graduating class is guaranteed acceptance into the Texas state school of their choice. According to this article (http://www.elpasotimes.com/newupdated/ci_11839879), 81 percent of UT-Austin's freshman class was 10 percenters this year. Oy!


It's too bad that due to the anti-intellectual populism of the early statehood days, that Oklahoma didn't enact something similar. Think of the possibilities for OU with the oil money of the old days, considering that OU would have likely had more money than UT to work with per capita.

I think this is a regret of many, that the oil money wasn't put to better or more long lasting use. Tulsa's public swimming pools and golf courses struggle to stay open, the statewide infrastructure's crumbling, the state ranks near last in many health and educational areas. If the state ever gets a second chance at fortune, much like the state got a second chance at agriculture after the Dust Bowl settled, I hope we do well.