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TheHumanAlphabet
2/26/2009, 02:03 PM
I think I may have mentioned he would do this previously...

He is going to eliminate itemized deductions as one tax increase... (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/obamas-budget-a.html)

And increase capital gains...

JohnnyMack
2/26/2009, 02:08 PM
Your Hitler comment is idiotic.

StoopTroup
2/26/2009, 02:11 PM
Yep.
http://blogs.southflorida.com/citylink_dansweeney/hitler-bush.jpg

TheHumanAlphabet
2/26/2009, 02:12 PM
No more than people calling Bush Hitler...

This man is over seeing the largest debt ever incurred and he wants to throw us all into Government Health Care and reduce our civil liberties by controlling semi-automatic weapons. Seems more Hitlerish than anything Bush ever did...

And I didn't call him Hitler, I called him the Fuehrer - Uber Leader...

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 02:13 PM
somebody remind me again how "the new socialism" can be both fascism AND communism at the same time?

StoopTroup
2/26/2009, 02:14 PM
Seems more like he's trying to Nationalize some things...same as some other Countries we are competing with. Change isn't always easy.

JohnnyMack
2/26/2009, 02:15 PM
They did it! So it's OK if I do it! Waaahhh!!!

You come across like an 8 year old.

TheHumanAlphabet
2/26/2009, 02:17 PM
You want to lie back and lose everything you have, be my guest. I, at least, will use my voice, vote and Congress to express my displeasure at this grab. I have worked hard and I want to keep what I have.

StoopTroup
2/26/2009, 02:19 PM
What are you going to lose?

TheHumanAlphabet
2/26/2009, 02:21 PM
Money, income, freedom to purchase guns, loss of control of my own health care.

JohnnyMack
2/26/2009, 02:22 PM
Tuba? You log in under the wrong handle today?

TheHumanAlphabet
2/26/2009, 02:23 PM
No actually I am Glenn Beck...

StoopTroup
2/26/2009, 02:28 PM
Money.

I think many of us have lost money. Bush was pushing for pension reform that would pour your dough into a 401k. That would have been great for me.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Seriously. Money? You have more control over your money and spending than any people in the World. You may just be feeling the crunch that we all are. Lots of folks are scared. What you do now is what will decide your future.

Quit poopin' your pants and get back to work.

TheHumanAlphabet
2/26/2009, 02:57 PM
Actually, my income has been steady with an up vector for 10+ years. I expect a good raise again this year. I have no debt except the house, and I bought significantly lower than my income would qualify me at. I live below my means and save/invest as much as possible. Just in case something like this happened. I didn't buy into consumerism and I buy what I need more on a cash basis. Haven't paid credit card interest in 5 years.

Oh - I work plenty hard, I just have time today to post during lunch.

badger
2/26/2009, 03:03 PM
Did der Fuhrer ever raise taxes, or just right about the struggles... er, I mean, "mine kampf."

Wisconsins know their German :D

Frozen Sooner
2/26/2009, 03:22 PM
Well, other than not knowing how to spell "mein" you do.

Okla-homey
2/26/2009, 03:28 PM
somebody remind me again how "the new socialism" can be both fascism AND communism at the same time?

Well, it was called, in English, the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP), shortened to "nazi." If the shoe fits...

Tulsa_Fireman
2/26/2009, 03:33 PM
I hate Illinois nazis.

SoonerProphet
2/26/2009, 03:35 PM
Bit of difference betwixt national socialist and communist ideology...both statists to the core.

olevetonahill
2/26/2009, 03:52 PM
Well, other than not knowing how to spell "mein" you do.

Or Wright
Not Like Im a spellin Nazi or nuthin .:D

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 04:19 PM
Well, it was called, in English, the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP), shortened to "nazi." If the shoe fits...

you have to be kidding. as the "historian". what does that prove?

Homey, i have some kind of respect for you but this just crap artist, partisan molassas hard grunting nonsense. are you really this simple?

the question is how Obama can be both a fascist and a communist at the same time?

Whet
2/26/2009, 04:19 PM
If you look at the taxes Der Fuhrer is increasing, it includes several on the oil and gas industry! Yes, they do want energy independence!

I also like Der Fuhrer's plan to sell carbon credits and give the money to his constituents, er the poor! Yep, in the footsteps of el Presidente Chavez!

I really hope you that voted of Der Fuhrer are pleased with what he and his minions have proposed for this country, as well as, the direction they are leading us!

Whet
2/26/2009, 04:25 PM
I thought Barry quit smoking crack!

$5.3 billion - excise tax on Gulf of Mexico oil and gas
$3.4 billion - repeal expensing of tangible drilling costs
$62 million - repeal deduction for tertiary injectants
$49 million - repeal passive loss exception for working interests in oil and natural gas properties
$13 billion - repeal manufacturing tax deduction for oil and natural gas companies
$1 billion - increase to 7 years geological and geophysical amortization period for independent producers.

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 04:32 PM
the question is how Obama can be both a fascist and a communist at the same time?

having listened to Rush read Thomas Sowell over the air and heard the never erring host opine:

i'd like see someone make the argument that fascism and communism are the same thing...and that Obama is both.

?

olevetonahill
2/26/2009, 04:38 PM
having listened to Rush read Thomas Sowell over the air and heard the never erring host opine:

i'd like see someone make the argument that fascism and communism are the same thing...and that Obama is both.

?

Well he is 1/2 White and 1/2 Black
pay tention .

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 04:42 PM
Well he is 1/2 White and 1/2 Black
pay tention .

that ain't got nothing to do with it.

i wanna see the fascism=socialism people prove it.

because, what it is...is a joke.

they talk like they know everything...let's hear some proof.

olevetonahill
2/26/2009, 04:47 PM
that ain't got nothing to do with it.

i wanna see the fascism=socialism people prove it.

because, what it is...is a joke.

they talk like they know everything...let's hear some proof.

Well hell he could be 1/2 Facist and 1/2 Socialist to couldnt he ?
:D

C&CDean
2/26/2009, 05:16 PM
Don't argue with him Howard. He's book smarter than the rest of us.

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 05:25 PM
Don't argue with him Howard. He's book smarter than the rest of us.

that's not the issue.

weak puss out, Dean

KC//CRIMSON
2/26/2009, 05:27 PM
http://web.blomand.net/~dennmac/reich-wing/newgopflag.gif

The Reich-Wing!

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 05:30 PM
now that the "true conservatives" have dumped the Maverick and such.....let's hear it....?

Sarah Palin! she energized the base.

what's left? let's roll with some immutable pejoratives...like authoritarianism and communism and abuse of the Bill of Rights of the Constitution. oh YEAH!

the Patriot Act was none of those...the undisclosed budget of the Iraq War, the hidden death count of American soldiers....????

C&CDean
2/26/2009, 05:31 PM
that's not the issue.

weak puss out, Dean

heh heh he said "puss" heh heh

OK, what is it you wanna hear? Based upon Webster's definition it's impossible to be a socialist and a fascist at the same time? There. I said it. Hope you feel smarter now.

Truth is, your boy is breaking new ground every day. By the time he's done we're gonna have new words nobody's ever heard of yet to describe exactly wtf he is.

C&CDean
2/26/2009, 05:34 PM
http://web.blomand.net/~dennmac/reich-wing/newgopflag.gif

The Reich-Wing!

That's almost as clever as the "Republicans for Voldemort" bumper sticker. Almost.

yermom
2/26/2009, 05:36 PM
I thought Barry quit smoking crack!

$5.3 billion - excise tax on Gulf of Mexico oil and gas
$3.4 billion - repeal expensing of tangible drilling costs
$62 million - repeal deduction for tertiary injectants
$49 million - repeal passive loss exception for working interests in oil and natural gas properties
$13 billion - repeal manufacturing tax deduction for oil and natural gas companies
$1 billion - increase to 7 years geological and geophysical amortization period for independent producers.

why do oil companies need tax breaks?

C&CDean
2/26/2009, 05:37 PM
why do oil companies need tax breaks?

says the hippy who lives in a Subaru...:P

yermom
2/26/2009, 05:42 PM
i don't have the hippie Subaru :D

i get anywhere from 15 to 25 MPG

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 05:49 PM
heh heh he said "puss" heh heh

OK, what is it you wanna hear? Based upon Webster's definition it's impossible to be a socialist and a fascist at the same time? There. I said it. Hope you feel smarter now.

Truth is, your boy is breaking new ground every day. By the time he's done we're gonna have new words nobody's ever heard of yet to describe exactly wtf he is.

well, ya, since most real Americans, like yourself, can't even explain the difference between the two....but use them anywhichway as equal pejoratives...i think it makes you look like an idiot.

i could care less about Webster's.

Condescending Sooner
2/26/2009, 05:59 PM
well, ya, since most real Americans, like yourself, can't even explain the difference between the two....but use them anywhichway as equal pejoratives...i think it makes you look like an idiot.

i could care less about Webster's.

How's about you address the tax increases instead of trying to shift the argument to definitions of unrelated terms?

1890MilesToNorman
2/26/2009, 06:05 PM
The presidents, the congress and the judges have successfully driven a wedge between and polarized the American people. Until we all understand these guys are our problem then we ain't fixing nothing.

Either that or come up with some better name calling, I need to laugh a little harder.

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 06:07 PM
How's about you address the tax increases instead of trying to shift the argument to definitions of unrelated terms?

my point is that communism and fascism are opposites and not equal power pejoratives with AM radio honks and their minions tooting them as such...as anti-Obama whatevers.

and if we want to start to think about how to remake American governance as such, it would be better to begin with a rigorous understanding of basic terms.

Curly Bill
2/26/2009, 06:15 PM
well, ya, since most real Americans, like yourself, can't even explain the difference between the two....but use them anywhichway as equal pejoratives...i think it makes you look like an idiot.

i could care less about Webster's.

Really? How much less could you care?

Chuck Bao
2/26/2009, 06:21 PM
Truthfully, I never quite understood fascism and how the two extreme ends of the political spectrum so closely resemble each other. That is until someone said (it could have been here) that fascism is the rich industrialists owning an oppressive government for their own benefit and socialism is an oppressive government owning the industry for their own benefit. It may not be so easy to tell the two apart given the oppressive part.

I think we were formerly under a mixed form of consumerism and Wall Street-ism. You can say that it was capitalism and free trade-ism if you wish. Consumers and investors vote with their dollars. What, 50% of Americans did own stock? Short-term earnings was all that mattered. Massive Wall street salaries and bonuses = good. Cheap goods = good. Outsource work in low labor cost countries = good. Coddle China = good.

But now that model is clearly broken. It wouldn't have been if we had any discipline. Raise taxes during periods of prosperity and pay off the debt incurred from lowering taxes during periods of recession. I am amused by economists predicting 10 years ago that the economic troughs and peaks could be more effectively managed, allowing for prolonged periods of economic growth.

However the economic winds blow, we should all resist the idea of an oppressive government.

And for the record, I don't think the Obama government is so intent on taking over industry and the banking sector. It simply has no choice to save the economy.

LosAngelesSooner
2/26/2009, 06:32 PM
The whole "Obama is a Nazi/Communist" thing makes as much sense and is about as ridiculously funny as the similar "Obama is the Anti-Christ/Hitler Reincarnated" segment that the Daily Show ran.

Curly Bill
2/26/2009, 06:36 PM
Anti-Christ?

I thought Brack was teh Messiah...:confused:

olevetonahill
2/26/2009, 06:41 PM
Don't argue with him Howard. He's book smarter than the rest of us.

Yup Ya cant argue with a Brick wall and hope to win. :D

1890MilesToNorman
2/26/2009, 06:42 PM
A book fell on his head?

1890MilesToNorman
2/26/2009, 06:42 PM
That smarts.

Harry Beanbag
2/26/2009, 06:58 PM
Question for those of you wanting exorbitant taxation to pay off the National Debt. Do you trust the government to follow through with that? If so, why would you?

KC//CRIMSON
2/26/2009, 07:00 PM
-OZONNw2D9Y

Jerk
2/26/2009, 07:26 PM
having listened to Rush read Thomas Sowell over the air and heard the never erring host opine:

i'd like see someone make the argument that fascism and communism are the same thing...and that Obama is both.

?

There's really not much difference.

In communism, the people are slaves to the state.
In fascism, the people are slaves to an individual.

I guess you can say that we will be slaves to our debt.

Scott D
2/26/2009, 07:27 PM
Question for those of you wanting exorbitant taxation to pay off the National Debt. Do you trust the government to follow through with that? If so, why would you?

I would answer this, but I'm already looking forward to that extra $52/month to fill my gas tank so that I can get to work on a daily basis.

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 08:12 PM
There's really not much difference.

In communism, the people are slaves to the state.
In fascism, the people are slaves to an individual.

I guess you can say that we will be slaves to our debt.

if both are exaggerated forms of non-egalitarian societies is what is meant, nifty. but, that's not political philosophy that's going to illuminate our current situation at all. that's like saying football and basketball are the same sport because the team with the most points win.

capitalism is a large portion of the public slave to wage-labor, the commies say.

whoopdy doo.

Okla-homey
2/26/2009, 09:05 PM
you have to be kidding. as the "historian". what does that prove?

Homey, i have some kind of respect for you but this just crap artist, partisan molassas hard grunting nonsense. are you really this simple?

the question is how Obama can be both a fascist and a communist at the same time?

sorry. I forgot the winky. srsly. ;)

I don't think the President is a national socialist.

However, this "chicken in every pot/arbeit un brot" stuff usually leads to no good. I just don't think we can tax ourselves to prosperity. And let's respect each other's intelligence and drop this pretense that the President isn't going to raise taxes. I also happen to think, in his heart and soul, he is committed to the notion a government's proper role is to "correct" inequities in terms of folks' personal means. Call it Robin Hood-ing, compassion, progressivism or what you will, the fact is, his entire professional life to this point has been devoted to that end.

As to fascism and communism being mutually exclusive, I think it can be found in the same person to the extent a man may subscribe to communism while working very hard, as in murdering political opponents, to be an absolute, totalitarian leader presiding over a suitably compliant party apparatus. E.g. Stalin and Mao. I say again, the President is neither.

If I had to classify the President, IMHO, the closest ideology our President manifests is Fabian socialism.

King Crimson
2/26/2009, 09:35 PM
Homey: i've seen your fabian socialism thing and that source you had was a joke.

right-wing populism shares a lot of the same characteristics you "true conservatives" are declaiming against. it's good for the "workin' man" and "mom and pop" and "small business" and such.

when in fact, the biggest ideological swindle going is a GOP appeal to "small business"....when everyone knows it's all about keeping the shareholders happy and the lipstick on the pig is called "trickle down".

yermom
2/26/2009, 09:39 PM
so why is it cool for people like this to pay a lower rate than people that make less than they do?


The most common arrangement provides that fund managers get a) a fee of 2 percent of the value of the fund, whether it goes up or down - a fee on which they pay ordinary income tax rates of up to 35 percent; and b) 20 percent of the annual profits, on which they pay only a 15-percent capital-gains tax rate.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/26/will-the-taxman-cometh_n_170082.html

getting rid of tax breaks for the very people and companies that caused this problem and fleeced America in the process doesn't really bother me.

Whet
2/26/2009, 09:45 PM
Because most of those wealthy people are Democrats - Georgie Soros - the convicted felon who spent millions to get Barry elected.

yermom
2/26/2009, 09:51 PM
hopefully the more that's talked about the more the PR hit of voting it down will be

Veritas
2/26/2009, 10:28 PM
Can we just drop all the labels like "socialist" or "savior" and just refer to the guy who just shoved a trillion dollar stiffy up the *** of people who pay taxes and is planning going to go for another few rounds over the next four years long years as "President."

Harry Beanbag
2/26/2009, 10:37 PM
Can we just drop all the labels like "socialist" or "savior" and just refer to the guy who just shoved a trillion dollar stiffy up the *** of people who pay taxes and is planning going to go for another few rounds over the next four years long years as "President."


Is "Daddy" okay?

yermom
2/26/2009, 11:00 PM
Can we just drop all the labels like "socialist" or "savior" and just refer to the guy who just shoved a trillion dollar stiffy up the *** of people who pay taxes and is planning going to go for another few rounds over the next four years long years as "President."

the stiffy was already in our asses

is it really going to help the country to bleed the people who can't support themselves as it is?

someone is going to have to pay for it. it's going to suck either way. they might as well go for where the money is

StoopTroup
2/27/2009, 01:32 AM
-OZONNw2D9Y

Kaiser Souse....

LMAO!

Jerk
2/27/2009, 06:02 AM
the stiffy was already in our asses

is it really going to help the country to bleed the people who can't support themselves as it is?

someone is going to have to pay for it. it's going to suck either way. they might as well go for where the money is


Where would that be?

There is not enough money to pay for this.

Okla-homey
2/27/2009, 06:48 AM
Homey: i've seen your fabian socialism thing and that source you had was a joke.

right-wing populism shares a lot of the same characteristics you "true conservatives" are declaiming against. it's good for the "workin' man" and "mom and pop" and "small business" and such.

when in fact, the biggest ideological swindle going is a GOP appeal to "small business"....when everyone knows it's all about keeping the shareholders happy and the lipstick on the pig is called "trickle down".

While you may not approve of the Forbes article from back in November that first hung that lable on the President, do you deny that Fabians believed in gradual nationalization of the economy through manipulation of the democratic process? That they broke away from the violent revolutionary socialists of their day, and thought the only real way to effect "fundamental change" and "social justice" was through a mass movement of the working classes presided over by intellectual and cultural elites?

Condescending Sooner
2/27/2009, 11:29 AM
my point is that communism and fascism are opposites and not equal power pejoratives with AM radio honks and their minions tooting them as such...as anti-Obama whatevers.

and if we want to start to think about how to remake American governance as such, it would be better to begin with a rigorous understanding of basic terms.


I'm sorry, I just don't see ANY reference to the tax increases in your diatribe.

Penguin
2/27/2009, 12:06 PM
Personally, I'm not sure how all of the millionaires are going to make it. Having to pay slightly higher taxes after they've spent their entire lives ****ing over everybody? Sheesh. We really should take up a collection and help out these poor souls.

Man, higher taxes for people making $250K+ a year. How are they going to make it? I beg of you all to please take a moment and pray for the wealthy. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go cry.

1890MilesToNorman
2/27/2009, 12:53 PM
Kill the millionaires! They don't do anything except hire folks and keep the economy going. They are the scourge of America because "they had a dream" and followed it with hard work and dedication.

By the way, I never met a poor person that hired anyone.

Shakes head at the dumbass folks who can't grasp the situation.

Whet
2/27/2009, 12:53 PM
$250K/year is not rich!

1890MilesToNorman
2/27/2009, 01:01 PM
Take a deep breath folks, look out in your yard and enjoy the day. Watch the wildlife in your neighborhood and just relax.

The breath you just took was taxed, the yard you just looked at was taxed, the wildlife you just saw was taxed and the chair you are sitting in was taxed. Now who is the culprit?

JohnnyMack
2/27/2009, 01:12 PM
Whitey.

Vaevictis
2/27/2009, 01:13 PM
By the way, I never met a poor person that hired anyone.

Never stepped foot in a Wal-Mart in a poor neighborhood, eh?

Penguin
2/27/2009, 01:18 PM
Kill the millionaires! They don't do anything except hire folks and keep the economy going. They are the scourge of America because "they had a dream" and followed it with hard work and dedication.

Show me a millionaire and I'll show you someone who has lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions, etc.


You don't get rich by acting like a Christian. So, excuse me if my heart doesn't bleed for them.

1890MilesToNorman
2/27/2009, 01:18 PM
Never stepped foot in a Wal-Mart in a poor neighborhood, eh?

Hired who to do what?

1890MilesToNorman
2/27/2009, 01:20 PM
Show me a millionaire and I'll show you someone who has lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions, etc.


You don't get rich by acting like a Christian. So, excuse me if my heart doesn't bleed for them.

You are uninformed my friend.

Vaevictis
2/27/2009, 01:21 PM
Hired who to do what?

If that poor neighborhood stops buying from the Wal-Mart, it goes under and all those folks get fired.

There are plenty of businesses that operate in poor neighborhoods without whose money the business would go under.

In essence, the poor neighborhood has "hired" the business to provide services.

Nevermind the fact that poor people hire folks to do fee for service all the fricking time.

Condescending Sooner
2/27/2009, 01:27 PM
Show me a millionaire and I'll show you someone who has lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions, etc.


You don't get rich by acting like a Christian. So, excuse me if my heart doesn't bleed for them.

Wow, where did you get that info? You have some serious issues towards successful people. I suggest you actually meet a few more.

Penguin
2/27/2009, 01:30 PM
$250K/year is not rich!

I know about 6.7 billion people who would disagree with that statement.

JohnnyMack
2/27/2009, 01:30 PM
Plenty of millionaires are just born that way, so there is that.

KC//CRIMSON
2/27/2009, 02:22 PM
$250K/year is not rich!


So what dollar amount is rich or even well off in your mind, captain kangaroo?

sooner KB
2/27/2009, 02:33 PM
Wow, where did you get that info?


We get info like this from social research.



You have some serious issues towards successful people. I suggest you actually meet a few more.

Actually, most of the wealthy in this country did not become wealthy because they are hard-working "successful people," but because of who their daddy is/was.

batonrougesooner
2/27/2009, 02:51 PM
Show me a millionaire and I'll show you someone who has lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions, etc.


You don't get rich by acting like a Christian. So, excuse me if my heart doesn't bleed for them.


I can't believe otherwise intelligent people think this way. It must suck to view the world through the lens you must do.

yermom
2/27/2009, 03:13 PM
you don't generally stay rich by being a nice guy

85Sooner
2/27/2009, 04:15 PM
I know about 6.7 billion people who would disagree with that statement.


Yeah? you know all the people living in ethiopia?

Sooner98
2/27/2009, 04:16 PM
Commie Nazis!

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mcbain-commie-nazis/138467405

JLEW1818
2/27/2009, 04:18 PM
that episode is great

85Sooner
2/27/2009, 04:25 PM
Might I suggest a good read.

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Thomas-Stanley/dp/0671015206

KABOOKIE
2/27/2009, 04:29 PM
Hahahaha Penguin. Go ahead and tell us why you're in that poor situation. It couldn't be bucause you made all the right choices in life?

JLEW1818
2/27/2009, 04:38 PM
1890, there aint any use talking to them. i just cant wait till i see the people who voted for him, bitching in 3 years.

KC//CRIMSON
2/27/2009, 05:02 PM
1890, there aint any use talking to them. i just cant wait till i see the people who voted for him, bitching in 3 years.

So instead of seeing our country get better, you'd rather see it get worse just so you can hear people bitch? You're awesome, freak.

Pricetag
2/27/2009, 05:04 PM
I can't believe otherwise intelligent people think this way. It must suck to view the world through the lens you must do.
Sure it does. So does blindly accepting wealthy people/corporations as benevolent economic overlords. They know deep down that despite their crowing about their own work ethic, they'll never achieve that kind of success themselves, but they let those folks do whatever they want in hopes of catching a crumb here or there.

I think half the folks who complain about these tax increases on the wealthy do so becuase they want other people to think that maybe it actually affects them directly.

Penguin
2/27/2009, 05:13 PM
I can't believe otherwise intelligent people think this way. It must suck to view the world through the lens you must do.


Oh, I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm not the one calling Obama a Nazi Commie and I'm not predicting doom because the wealthy will be paying a little more of their income toward taxes.

I'm not the least bit worried about the wealthy. I'm guessing that the wealthy will continue to lie, cheat, backstab, find loopholes, etc., and will continue to pay their workers the absolute minimum that they can. I just HOPE that they might re-invest their wealth into their businesses and create more jobs, instead of giving it to trust funds, offshore accounts, hedgefunds, and would-be Ponzi schemes.

JLEW1818
2/27/2009, 05:21 PM
So instead of seeing our country get better, you'd rather see it get worse just so you can hear people bitch? You're awesome, freak.

Actually i see our economy being about the same in 3 years. That is why people will be bitching. So would you consider that an Obama accomplishment ? Your damn right i hope and pray the economy gets better, but i cant see it happening. But I'm only 21 years of age so I'm not a very knowledgeable source. And I'm a damn freak.

I guess my question is are you more or less confident in Obama, since election night?

yermom
2/27/2009, 05:34 PM
i'd expect it to get worse before it gets better

so i really have no idea

NormanPride
2/27/2009, 05:38 PM
It's a tough line to walk.. I think wealthy people worry their status and quality of life will be impacted. Sure, I believe they should shoulder more of the tax burden to improve the quality of life for those less fortunate. But in the same light, it is completely unfair to tax someone so much that they can't enjoy the fruits of their labor.

For example, a welder fresh out of school makes X amount, and an experienced carpenter makes more. It would be unfair to tax the carpenter so that his effective income and quality of life is that of the welder. Of course, the larger the amount, the harder it is to justify a complaint, as reducing effective income from 1.5 million to 1.2 million is still a boatload of cash.

I don't, however, feel sorry for the true millionaires. I had a friend tell me that her parents were bemoaning the fact that this economy had drained their investments of almost a million dollars. I was mad because they were complaining while living the high life, and she was furious because they had refused to pay for a nicer college before all this went down.

Harry Beanbag
2/27/2009, 06:04 PM
If that poor neighborhood stops buying from the Wal-Mart, it goes under and all those folks get fired.

There are plenty of businesses that operate in poor neighborhoods without whose money the business would go under.

In essence, the poor neighborhood has "hired" the business to provide services.


Wow, this is some convoluted ridiculous logic. Nevermind the fact that if it wasn't for Sam Walton and his billions, there wouldn't be a Walmart there in the first place.

85Sooner
2/27/2009, 06:11 PM
Oh, I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm not the one calling Obama a Nazi Commie and I'm not predicting doom because the wealthy will be paying a little more of their income toward taxes.

I'm not the least bit worried about the wealthy. I'm guessing that the wealthy will continue to lie, cheat, backstab, find loopholes, etc., and will continue to pay their workers the absolute minimum that they can. I just HOPE that they might re-invest their wealth into their businesses and create more jobs, instead of giving it to trust funds, offshore accounts, hedgefunds, and would-be Ponzi schemes.

Why would they reinvest in their business when the government is just going to take away the increases they see. You better be worried about the wealthy if you want to have a job or you want to own a business and make money because those customers you want are going to have to have jobs.

The ones who lie cheat backstab etc... are the ones that are sitting in Washington making all the rules.

Condescending Sooner
2/27/2009, 06:12 PM
We get info like this from social research.



Actually, most of the wealthy in this country did not become wealthy because they are hard-working "successful people," but because of who their daddy is/was.

You obviously need to do more "social research".

I read somewhere that around 90% of millionaires made their own fortunes. Your blind hatred is in no way rooted in fact.

85Sooner
2/27/2009, 06:13 PM
Wow, this is some convoluted ridiculous logic. Nevermind the fact that if it wasn't for Sam Walton and his billions, there wouldn't be a Walmart there in the first place.
Who needs walmart. Its the debil right? ;)

Harry Beanbag
2/27/2009, 06:16 PM
Who needs walmart. Its the debil right? ;)


To tell you the truth, if Target sold ammo, I'd probably never set foot in a Walmart again. :)

Curly Bill
2/27/2009, 06:18 PM
Show me a millionaire and I'll show you someone who has lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions, etc.


You don't get rich by acting like a Christian. So, excuse me if my heart doesn't bleed for them.

Karl Marx?

Penguin
2/27/2009, 06:31 PM
Karl Marx?

Nah. I don't want rich people to become poor. Greed makes the economy go 'round. We need rich folks. I just wish that once they've "made it" (i.e., a couple of million in the bank), they would spend all that they can to create jobs for the rest of America.

Penguin
2/27/2009, 06:34 PM
Hahahaha Penguin. Go ahead and tell us why you're in that poor situation. It couldn't be bucause you made all the right choices in life?


Yep. I wish 10 years ago that instead of buying that crappy townhouse, I had bought a boatload of Google stock. :D

Veritas
2/27/2009, 07:06 PM
Show me a millionaire and I'll show you someone who has lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions, etc
Wow, you've really bought that Galbraithian bull**** hook, line, and sinker.


Actually, most of the wealthy in this country did not become wealthy because they are hard-working "successful people," but because of who their daddy is/was.
The Millionaire Next Door (I forget who wrote it) had research that indicated that 80% of millionaire were first time affluent.

Vaevictis
2/27/2009, 07:16 PM
Wow, this is some convoluted ridiculous logic. Nevermind the fact that if it wasn't for Sam Walton and his billions, there wouldn't be a Walmart there in the first place.

Heh, who do you think Sam Walton was selling to in order to get those billions in the first place?

I guarantee you he didn't get them by selling to rich people. Wal-Mart came out of Arkansas, remember?

Vaevictis
2/27/2009, 07:23 PM
Why would they reinvest in their business when the government is just going to take away the increases they see.

Businesses make damn good tax shelters.

stoopified
2/27/2009, 09:33 PM
Or Wright
Not Like Im a spellin Nazi or nuthin .:DEvidently his English is no better than his German. :)

CORNholio
2/27/2009, 10:46 PM
The problem with socialism doesn't lie in its fancy vision of eliminating poverty. It's the way it goes about it. Centralizing power is never a good thing. Taking power from individuals and handing it over to the govt (nationalizing) is extremely dangerous. Maybe Obama's not that bad of a guy but maybe the guy 10 years from now will be. And guess what he will already have the power to bend you over. Power corrupts.

Vaevictis
2/27/2009, 11:05 PM
I just can't stop laughing.

Harry Beanbag
2/27/2009, 11:53 PM
Heh, who do you think Sam Walton was selling to in order to get those billions in the first place?

I guarantee you he didn't get them by selling to rich people. Wal-Mart came out of Arkansas, remember?


So? He had a good business model, and it made him richer than sin. I'm still not sure what your point is. Sam Walton (his kid's now) is doing the hiring and he isn't poor...

Curly Bill
2/27/2009, 11:55 PM
So? He had a good business model, and it made him richer than sin. I'm still not sure what your point is. Sam Walton (his kid's now) is doing the hiring and he isn't poor...

Rich people = BAD

Poor people = GOOD

Pay tention damnit, the donks have been preaching this for a while now. :D

sooner KB
2/28/2009, 12:57 AM
I read somewhere that around 90% of millionaires made their own fortunes.


You "read it somewhere." Sorry, but you need to provide some sources because that sounds like total bull****.

Vaevictis
2/28/2009, 01:09 AM
So? He had a good business model, and it made him richer than sin. I'm still not sure what your point is. Sam Walton (his kid's now) is doing the hiring and he isn't poor...

I'm pointing out the flaw in the argument made by the comment, "I never met a poor person who hired anyone."

It may be technically true, but at the same time, I've never met a rich person whose riches meant a damn thing without poor people somewhere down the line.

Vaevictis
2/28/2009, 01:17 AM
Really, all it boils down to for me is the belief that if you let the poor get too poor, they'll start taking wealth from the rich by force.

And personally, I'll gladly take the relatively stable mechanism of taxation over the unstable mechanism of riot and guillotine.

We had >70% top marginal rates during some of our most prosperous times (post-WWII), as high as in the 90%'s at certain points. I think we can survive 40%.

Jerk
2/28/2009, 01:28 AM
Really, all it boils down to for me is the belief that if you let the poor get too poor, they'll start taking wealth from the rich by force.

And personally, I'll gladly take the relatively stable mechanism of taxation over the unstable mechanism of riot and guillotine.

We had >70% top marginal rates during some of our most prosperous times (post-WWII), as high as in the 90%'s at certain points. I think we can survive 40%.

Dude, veav. I understand you're a very intelligent person. I would never question your capacity to think. but listen. We're not in Mexico. We're not in Zimbabwe. We're not in some third world sh*t hole ran by a tin pot dictator. This is 'Merica, buddy, and we have a very large middle class, and everyone who has an imagination can dream of being rich. You know what you're leftist buddies are going to do with this dream? Absolutely crush it. You know what you're fixing to do with the middle class? Turn us into serfs. We should have charity and welfare for the people who are poor because they are mentally or physically unable to work. You know what to do about the rest? Let them rot lest they drag us all down to their level. Sounds cold, I know, but unless everyone has a sense of responsibility, you are presenting to them a moral hazard. Anything else is just buying votes.

ps- ain't no one taking anything around here by force without much lead flying.

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 01:30 AM
If I make $100 then tax me $10, If I make $100,000 then tax me $10,000. Who pays more?

Math is hard but being a dimwit is easy!

Jerk
2/28/2009, 01:38 AM
If I make $100 then tax me $10, If I make $100,000 then tax me $10,000. Who pays more?

Math is hard but being a dimwit is easy!

I've tried that argument with mdklatt. No matter how simple you make it, they refuse to understand it.

yermom
2/28/2009, 01:39 AM
Really, all it boils down to for me is the belief that if you let the poor get too poor, they'll start taking wealth from the rich by force.

And personally, I'll gladly take the relatively stable mechanism of taxation over the unstable mechanism of riot and guillotine.

We had >70% top marginal rates during some of our most prosperous times (post-WWII), as high as in the 90%'s at certain points. I think we can survive 40%.


i just read about 90% rates. that is crazy.

but yeah, if the poor get too poor, they might not wait until the election cycle to remove our leaders

ingoring the widening gap and shrinking middle class seems like a bad idea

yermom
2/28/2009, 02:17 AM
If I make $100 then tax me $10, If I make $100,000 then tax me $10,000. Who pays more?

Math is hard but being a dimwit is easy!

if you are making $100 a paycheck, missing $10 is a pretty big deal

that's taking the ramen noodles out of your mouth

if you are making $100,000 a paycheck, and losing $10,000, you might have to look at smaller numbers on your bank statement or make your nanny fly coach on your vacation

Vaevictis
2/28/2009, 03:57 AM
This is 'Merica, buddy, and we have a very large middle class, and everyone who has an imagination can dream of being rich. You know what you're leftist buddies are going to do with this dream? Absolutely crush it. You know what you're fixing to do with the middle class? Turn us into serfs.

Frankly, I think we're in danger of that no matter which side you pick, it's just a matter of how it happens.

If you go with the Democrats, you have massive expansion of the government and over-regulation. If you go with the Republicans, you have massive expansion of the government and under-regulation.

Hopefully, we pull back from the brink like we did during the Depression.

Seriously, if you don't quite get what I'm talking about there, go look up some of the stuff during the Depression, say, the Bonus Army, and just how close our Republic was to collapse. (EDIT: Jerk, this is not specifically directed at you, but to people in general. There's a tendency to demonize FDR around here, but I just don't think people appreciate how bad things were then, both economically and politically.)

We're not there yet. I'm hoping for the best.

Vaevictis
2/28/2009, 04:00 AM
I've tried that argument with mdklatt. No matter how simple you make it, they refuse to understand it.

I fully understand the argument. I simply reject it.

There are damn good reasons for having increasing income tax levels.

Most of them were taught to me by my grandfather, who despite being taxed >=70% on his top dollar for his prime earning years, did indeed manage to get rich.

PS: He still thinks they're a good idea.

Chuck Bao
2/28/2009, 04:34 AM
^^^ what he said. In an economic meltdown, the middle class becomes the new poor.

There was this story on MSNBC about this really honorable WWII vet that always did the right thing. His wife got cancer and he refinanced his already paid off home several times so that he could afford private care and comfort in her last days. Now, he is going to lose his home. You know what? He is saying that it was worth it.

Seriously, I don't like Americans thrown to these choices.

You guys may be very much against socialized medicine. I still don't think that medical bills should bankrupt someone.

GrapevineSooner
2/28/2009, 08:31 AM
nm, that was a cheap shot.

Harry Beanbag
2/28/2009, 10:46 AM
but yeah, if the poor get too poor, they might not wait until the election cycle to remove our leaders


I'm not convinced that is a bad idea.

Harry Beanbag
2/28/2009, 10:50 AM
I'm pointing out the flaw in the argument made by the comment, "I never met a poor person who hired anyone."

It may be technically true, but at the same time, I've never met a rich person whose riches meant a damn thing without poor people somewhere down the line.


You're pointing out something so simple that it doesn't need to be pointed out, Captain Obvious. People buy things from stores? Even poor people? No kidding.

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 11:09 AM
Vaevictis- You are confusing customers with employees. When I say hire I mean put someone on the payroll. This means paying FICA and the rest fer that individual and not under the table stuff. I repeat, I have never met a poor person who hired anyone. Pay tention.

85Sooner
2/28/2009, 11:21 AM
if you are making $100 a paycheck, missing $10 is a pretty big deal
that's taking the ramen noodles out of your mouth

if you are making $100,000 a paycheck, and losing $10,000, you might have to look at smaller numbers on your bank statement or make your nanny fly coach on your vacation

and you better get off your butt and learn some skills to get a better job. Now theres a novel idea huh.

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 11:22 AM
if you are making $100 a paycheck, missing $10 is a pretty big deal

that's taking the ramen noodles out of your mouth

if you are making $100,000 a paycheck, and losing $10,000, you might have to look at smaller numbers on your bank statement or make your nanny fly coach on your vacation

Is our tax code about penalizing people or funding our government?

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 11:46 AM
To expand on my last post a little,

If you are a thief and you see a guy walking down the street dressed in rags, walking next to him a guy in a three piece suit. After you pull out the knife which one of them are you going to steal from?

That's what our government is all about, legalized theft by profiling.

Turd_Ferguson
2/28/2009, 11:51 AM
To expand on my last post a little,

If you are a thief and you see a guy walking down the street dressed in rags, walking next to him a guy in a three piece suit. After you pull out the knife which one of them are you going to steal from?

That's what our government is all about, legalized theft by profiling.You simple minded twit....lay off the OVJ for God sakes....it's 11 a.m.:D:D:D:D:D:D

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 11:56 AM
You simple minded twit....lay off the OVJ for God sakes....it's 11 a.m.:D:D:D:D:D:D

Good thing you only has a two piece suit or I would have to flush you!! ;)

And it's fricking noon here ya hillbilly!

Frozen Sooner
2/28/2009, 12:01 PM
That's what our government is all about, legalized theft by profiling.

So by that token, incarceration is legalized kidnapping and war is legalized murder?

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 12:03 PM
You got it.

Harry Beanbag
2/28/2009, 12:32 PM
So by that token, incarceration is legalized kidnapping...

Only if you subscribe to the theory that having money is a crime, just to complete the analogy.

Frozen Sooner
2/28/2009, 12:35 PM
Only if you subscribe to the theory that having money is a crime, just to complete the analogy.

Or if you subscribe to the theory that the execution of legitimate governmental authority is the perpetration of a crime.

Just to complete the analogy.

yermom
2/28/2009, 12:37 PM
To expand on my last post a little,

If you are a thief and you see a guy walking down the street dressed in rags, walking next to him a guy in a three piece suit. After you pull out the knife which one of them are you going to steal from?

That's what our government is all about, legalized theft by profiling.

if you are going to shake down the guy in rags you are a moron, for various reasons

and taxes are theft?

while it must be nice in dreamland, i don't live there. here in reality the country doesn't run on rainbows

Harry Beanbag
2/28/2009, 12:41 PM
Or if you subscribe to the theory that the execution of legitimate governmental authority is the perpetration of a crime.

Just to complete the analogy.


To the point that it looks like we're headed, yeah I consider it a crime. I think we all can agree there is a sizeable chunk of taxpayer money (probably on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars a year) that is wasted on illegitimate purposes.

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 12:45 PM
here in reality the country doesn't run on rainbows

You are correct, it runs on the backs of the so called rich.

Frozen Sooner
2/28/2009, 12:46 PM
To the point that it looks like we're headed, yeah I consider it a crime. I think we all can agree there is a sizeable chunk of taxpayer money (probably on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars a year) that is wasted on illegitimate purposes.

I agree.

It's likely we disagree on which purposes are illegitimate. And there's the rub.

The example that's fresh in everyone's mind is Bobby Jindal ridiculing (and exagerrating by a factor of 10, by the way) money being spent on volcano monitoring.

Now, if you happen to be someone living in the shadow of an active volcanic range (such as yours truly) that seems like a pretty legitimate expenditure: it's a good idea to get warnings about when a mountain is going to start throwing superheated rock at you.

Jindal likely thinks the money would be better spent on better levees and hurricane monitoring.

Veritas
2/28/2009, 12:48 PM
There are several themes running through this thread that I just can't let go, particularly this whole notion of "any millionaire lied, backstabbed, stole money or ideas, paid hard workers as little as he/she can get away with, manipulated people, government, or institutions to get where they are."

First, humans crap all over each other. We lie to each other, we cheat each other, and we steal from each other. We manipulate constantly to get life to our advantage. Each and every one of us have obtained something by guile. You, Mr Wage Earner, are not morally superior to a millionaire.

Secondly, paying people the lowest amount possible is a requirement of business survival. But that doesn't mean that "the lowest amount possible" is "the lowest amount period." For example, I pay my employees about 10-15% above the average for what they do. This is not because I'm a nice guy; it's because that premium buys me loyalty, long weeks without complaining when 40 just won't get it done, and most importantly, top notch talent. Could I pay people less? You bet I could, but those direct savings would be crushed by indirect costs. Simply put, paying people well is a short term expense with long-term dividends. It's just good business.

Third, you, Mr Wage Earner, don't have any concept of just how expensive you are. Just to put things in perspective, I've done the math on this and it would be much cheaper for me to buy a Lamborghini Gallardo than hire another employee. And my good developers? I could buy a Bugatti Veyron rather than employ each of them. Obviously, though, a Lambo can't keep books and a Veyron won't write much code; each of my employees generates more revenue than they add to the middle line.

Foruth, I used to be Veritas the even handed political moderator, but you know what? I did most of my posting while someone was paying me to be working (as I suspect quite a lot of you do). I sorta disappeared from this board in early 2006 because I realized that I was never going to get rich pissing away my employer's money. I began working my *** off, going beyond the required 40 hours a week, and exactly one year ago today I started my own business. In that year I worked over 4000 hours, hired and fired a few folks, and ended our fiscal year in the black with rapidly growing revenue. And I don't bother which much moderation anymore because a) I don't have time and b) I'd start banning people for their ****ing retarded views, and that wouldn't be fair. So now I'm Veritas the fiscally conservative inactive moderator.

Fifth, I am the goddamn American Dream and I will be a millionaire before I hit 40 no matter how much this idiot President and the ignorant fools who voted for him work to prevent me from acheiving that goal. I'll do whatever I have to do to get there provided I don't have to violate my morals, which do happen to proscribe lying, backstabbing and stealing.

Sixth, I don't expect some of you to agree with anything I've said, and I don't give a flying ****.

1890MilesToNorman
2/28/2009, 12:55 PM
Veritas - that's what it is all about! Thanks fer the post.

GrapevineSooner
2/28/2009, 12:57 PM
I agree.

It's likely we disagree on which purposes are illegitimate. And there's the rub.

The example that's fresh in everyone's mind is Bobby Jindal ridiculing (and exagerrating by a factor of 10, by the way) money being spent on volcano monitoring.

Now, if you happen to be someone living in the shadow of an active volcanic range (such as yours truly) that seems like a pretty legitimate expenditure: it's a good idea to get warnings about when a mountain is going to start throwing superheated rock at you.

Jindal likely thinks the money would be better spent on better levees and hurricane monitoring.

Yeah, I'd have to concede that out of all the things that you could criticize in the stimulus package, that's probably one of the poorer examples he could have chosen.

I'm sure it sounded great to the speech writer as he could segue from that to the 'eruption in spending' line. But people living near volcanoes probably need that kind of a grant to upgrade the monitoring equipment.

And pilots, too (http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsView.aspx?itemid=1470&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256).

Frozen Sooner
2/28/2009, 01:02 PM
Yeah. What's worse is that he almost had a legitimate point: money spent on volcano monitoring should properly be part of a regular appropriations bill, not a stimulus package. Instead of going with that, he acted like paying attention to volcanos was just weird.

I think I'd still rather have him as President than Sarah Palin though.

Whet
2/28/2009, 01:13 PM
Barry Soetoro, that's who, according to Larry Kudlow.


Obama Declares War on Investors, Entrepreneurs, Businesses, And More

Posted By: Larry Kudlow | Anchor

cnbc.com
| 27 Feb 2009 | 04:39 PM ET

Let me be very clear on the economics of President Obama’s State of the Union speech and his budget.

He is declaring war on investors, entrepreneurs, small businesses, large corporations, and private-equity and venture-capital funds.

That is the meaning of his anti-growth tax-hike proposals, which make absolutely no sense at all — either for this recession or from the standpoint of expanding our economy’s long-run potential to grow.

Raising the marginal tax rate on successful earners, capital, dividends, and all the private funds is a function of Obama’s left-wing social vision, and a repudiation of his economic-recovery statements. Ditto for his sweeping government-planning-and-spending program, which will wind up raising federal outlays as a share of GDP to at least 30 percent, if not more, over the next 10 years.
This is nearly double the government-spending low-point reached during the late 1990s by the Gingrich Congress and the Clinton administration. While not quite as high as spending levels in Western Europe, we regrettably will be gaining on this statist-planning approach.

Study after study over the past several decades has shown how countries that spend more produce less, while nations that tax less produce more. Obama is doing it wrong on both counts.

And as far as middle-class tax cuts are concerned, Obama’s cap-and-trade program will be a huge across-the-board tax increase on blue-collar workers, including unionized workers. Industrial production is plunging, but new carbon taxes will prevent production from ever recovering. While the country wants more fuel and power, cap-and-trade will deliver less.

The tax hikes will generate lower growth and fewer revenues. Yes, the economy will recover. But Obama’s rosy scenario of 4 percent recovery growth in the out years of his budget is not likely to occur. The combination of easy money from the Fed and below-potential economic growth is a prescription for stagflation. That’s one of the messages of the falling stock market.

Essentially, the Obama economic policies represent a major Democratic party relapse into Great Society social spending and taxing. It is a return to the LBJ/Nixon era, and a move away from the Reagan/Clinton period. House Republicans, fortunately, are 90 days sober, as they are putting up a valiant fight to stop the big-government onslaught and move the GOP back to first principles.

Noteworthy up here on Wall Street, a great many Obama supporters — especially hedge-fund types who voted for “change” — are becoming disillusioned with the performances of Obama and Treasury man Geithner.

There is a growing sense of buyer’s remorse.

Well then, do conservatives dare say: We told you so?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29434104/

yermom
2/28/2009, 01:17 PM
well, Veritas, to be fair, some of the broad generalizations used don't apply to you

the "millionaire next door" type isn't who have railroaded this country it's the "i'm going to lay off 5,000 people to get my stock to go up $1" type

the latter is more of who we think of as being "rich"

but i don't think anyone thinks that someone with a McJob should be making the same money as a CEO, but it doesn't make sense to tax them at the same rate

there are still and always will be incentives for working hard

GrapevineSooner
2/28/2009, 01:36 PM
the "millionaire next door" type isn't who have railroaded this country it's the "i'm going to lay off 5,000 people to get my stock to go up $1" type

No, but he is the type who will lay off Michael and Samir just so Bill Lumbergh's stock can go up a quarter of a point. :)

Frozen Sooner
2/28/2009, 01:38 PM
Samir Na..na..notgonnabehere

jkjsooner
2/28/2009, 02:08 PM
First, humans crap all over each other. We lie to each other, we cheat each other, and we steal from each other. We manipulate constantly to get life to our advantage. Each and every one of us have obtained something by guile. You, Mr Wage Earner, are not morally superior to a millionaire.



I'm going to have to call B.S. on this. "We" do not manipulate constantly to get life to our advantage. I'm sure we all do it a little even if we don't realize it, but we surely as hell are not all equivalent.

Just look around the highways and you will see just how much we differ. Some will always let the guy who needs in your lane over. Some have a "to hell with you" attitude in almost every action on the road.

From my experience, about half of the people who move up the corporate ladder do so by manipulation and other unethical means. They do things daily that I would not be able to live with myself for doing it. They take credit for work/ideas that they are not responsible for. They develop innapropriate relationships knowing that that will advance their careers. They keep information hidden so that they are at an advantage over others.

I'm not a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination. I have a temper and it occasionally gets in my way. But I promise you one thing, I never knowingly screw someone over for my own personal benefit and I do take others in consideration in almost every decision I make - that of course assuming I'm acting rationally at that moment.

Veritas, I think you seriously underestimate the range of moral behavior in humans.

I'm sure not saying that all millionaires lie and cheat and are morally inferior. I do think the percentage is probably higher than the average middle class person though. I'll also point out that by "millionaire" we are probably referring to someone with quite a few million as a million is no longer a good judge on who is rich considering if you retire on your saving alone you will need several million....

Scott D
2/28/2009, 02:38 PM
see Veritas didn't hire me because my greedy lying manipulative *** wasn't budging from wanting 16.5% more than the average.

Veritas
2/28/2009, 02:55 PM
see Veritas didn't hire me because my greedy lying manipulative *** wasn't budging from wanting 16.5% more than the average.
Oh, it wasn't that, it's that I have a rule that I never hire people I'm attracted to, and you, my friend, are dead sexy. ;)

Veritas
2/28/2009, 03:22 PM
Veritas, I think you seriously underestimate the range of moral behavior in humans.
On the contrary; from your perspective I might overestimate moral range as I see that each of us has an equivalent capacity for avarice, greed, and deception, just as we each have equivalent capacity for kindness, charity, and compassion.

We are all born equal. None is born morally superior or inferior to the other. It is the moral (or immoral) capacities that we choose to fulfill that define us, and no one person chooses only the bad or only the good, but the key operating word here is choice. Those choices we make are our responsibility and we are accountable for them regardless of mitigating circumstance.

tommieharris91
2/28/2009, 03:26 PM
I'm going to have to call B.S. on this. "We" do not manipulate constantly to get life to our advantage. I'm sure we all do it a little even if we don't realize it,

Nice contradiction. I stopped reading when I got to it.

Jerk
2/28/2009, 03:36 PM
Frankly, I think we're in danger of that no matter which side you pick, it's just a matter of how it happens.

If you go with the Democrats, you have massive expansion of the government and over-regulation. If you go with the Republicans, you have massive expansion of the government and under-regulation.

Hopefully, we pull back from the brink like we did during the Depression.

Seriously, if you don't quite get what I'm talking about there, go look up some of the stuff during the Depression, say, the Bonus Army, and just how close our Republic was to collapse. (EDIT: Jerk, this is not specifically directed at you, but to people in general. There's a tendency to demonize FDR around here, but I just don't think people appreciate how bad things were then, both economically and politically.)

We're not there yet. I'm hoping for the best.

I was drunker than sh*t last night when I made this post so sorry if I came across as a little, uh, I don't know, rude?

I literally feel like I am watching my country collapse, and it is friggin scary.

Can you imagine going through another Depression with the type of people who make up this country now?

I'm glad I'm in Oklahoma. I would not want to be in one of the major population centers on the east or west coast if this thing goes down like it could. Can you imagine New York City with 25% unemployment, the local government broke, and Washington DC no longer able to sell t bonds?

Vaevictis
2/28/2009, 04:10 PM
I was drunker than sh*t last night when I made this post so sorry if I came across as a little, uh, I don't know, rude?

Nah, all I read was serious concern. I can dig it ;)

Whet
2/28/2009, 04:18 PM
This and other George Soros funded groups are the backbone of the Obama administration.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/08/outrage-soros-funded-leftist-group.html


http://sweetness-light.com/archive/reuters-celebrates-the-paid-stalking-of-congress

http://www.americansunitedforchange.org/blog/entries/second_chance_radio_advertisements/

i6ml16zGPy8

jkjsooner
2/28/2009, 04:21 PM
Nice contradiction. I stopped reading when I got to it.

You might want to look up the definition of "constantly."

I don't know what world you live in where "constantly" and "a little" are equivalent. In my world those two things generally mean something very different.

Whet
2/28/2009, 06:50 PM
http://ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon022409.gif

CORNholio
3/1/2009, 10:57 PM
If "all men are created equal" as established by our founding fathers, then all men should be taxed equally. By increasing the burden on a few you are denouncing this belief and implying that some are more deserving than others and therefore not equal. It's America people. Find out what it's about and have some principals or move to Cuba. America is about freedom not improved standards of living by ways of social engineering.

JLEW1818
3/1/2009, 10:59 PM
If "all men are created equal" as established by our founding fathers, then all men should be taxed equally. By increasing the burden on a few you are denouncing this belief and implying that some are more deserving than others and therefore not equal. It's America people. Find out what it's about and have some principals or move to Cuba. America is about freedom not improved standards of living by ways of social engineering.


YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

StoopTroup
3/1/2009, 10:59 PM
If everyone who can could send Barry a check for $10,000.00...Barry will send you a cupcake.

Gandalf_The_Grey
3/2/2009, 07:47 AM
A Flat Tax would be a beautiful thing. Another thing that pisses me off much more than the Rich people is these poor Welfare *******s that collect welfare and benefits their whole life and never make any effort. I think you should get like 2 years of Welfare and at the end of that, you better have a job or tough ****. I see Hiring now signs everywhere all over town. Another thing that pisses me off is that if a women has a baby and doesn't try, they help her out. I have a friend who works her *** off 40 hours a week to support her and her kid and they told her she made too much money now because she got a raise. Seriously that is the women we need to be helping, she has shown that she is motivated, so why not help her get child care, perhaps get her in some classes so she can make even more money, and numerous other things. Instead they punish her for trying basically

soonerscuba
3/2/2009, 11:48 AM
Flat taxes are regressive because it assumes income tax is the only tax paid. If you want to tax poor people at a higher percentage than the rich, knock yourself out, but it's political suicide. Why are some of the serfs so eager for feudalism?

Gandalf_The_Grey
3/3/2009, 03:57 AM
Actually poor people don't pay taxes anyway in most cases. I don't know the exact stat but something like 90% of taxes are paid by like 5% of the population.

TheHumanAlphabet
3/12/2009, 11:39 PM
Wow, I'm gone out working hard for the money and this thing grows to 6 pages.

Some interesting points. Good to have a dialog.