Anyone that has interest in pets, shelters, dog/cat shows

[achiro]

or buying a pet from out of state needs to call or write thier state rep and tell them to kill this bill. I don't normally worry to much about this stuff but it passed committee yesterday and is on it's way to the house.

As an example, I doubt any breeder from out of state would go to the trouble of obtaining a license to sell you a dog. Dog shows, field trials, hunt tests, any other large dog related event would be killed in our state because folks wouldn't want to have to buy a license to transport their pet into Oklahoma. The Sooner dog show brings in millions to OKC every year as I understand it. Most shelters are already strained financially, and rescue groups may lose some rescue homes as a result of this.

As far as the puppy mill thing, this sounds al goody goody as far as that goes but their are already laws to protect them utilizing the USDA. If they would just enforce those laws this wouldn't be an issue.

http://capwiz.com/naiatrust/issues/alert/?alertid=12636286

[StoopTroup]

We're all going to learn how to eat small animals during the depression. If they make metal tags for the animals...those could be fashioned into a spoon, knife or fork. It will workout the way it works out I guess. Anyone have a good poodle recipe? :D ;)

[NormanPride]

That's awful, ST. Poodle tastes terrible. Go with doberman.

[NormanPride]

Also, maybe you legal minds can tell me... Isn't this:


* Requires an out-of-state breeder to obtain an Oklahoma license before transporting dogs or cats through Oklahoma and to abide by Oklahoma laws and inspection requirements in their home state. Failure to do so could result in heavy fines and penalties, including confiscation of animals.


completely unenforceable?

[achiro]

Also, maybe you legal minds can tell me... Isn't this:



completely unenforceable?

You would THINK right.

[StoopTroup]

http://www.baseacid.com/imagesRG/animalControl.jpg

[StoopTroup]

http://pleadthefirst.com/wp-content/cartoons/060813_animal.gif

[JohnnyMack]

2RoNemjcjGE

Watch the part at the end, when he's trying to sell the dog. :D

[StoopTroup]

You know...we probably should write our Representatives...if you don't...things will spin out of control...

VyiObBhM9Pk

[yermom]

* The Law defines out of state dealer/breeder as a person who does not reside in the state and who buys, receives, sells, exchanges, transfers, negotiates, barters or solicits the sale, resale, or exchange of an animal in this state for the purpose of transferring ownership or possession to another party. Under this definition, anyone buying or selling one dog in the state or if asking someone (or being asked) at a show about buying a dog, or obtaining a dog from a breeder's contract, makes you an out-of-state dealer/breeder if you don't live in the state. Breeding and dealering are not equivalent activities

* Gives any animal control officer, peace officer or animal cruelty investigator unrestricted access to the premises of an individual’s home, facility, animals and records.


the first one just sounds retarded. the second one. wow.

[badger]

NP and I watched Westminster last night. It had a few Tulsa-area ties to it, fun times.

However, (and I can't speak for him), I think we are both mindful of the pet overpopulation. All of our pets are adopted mutts. It was fun being all like "hey, that dog has his face" and such during the purebred showings.

As such, I don't think we'll ever own a purebred dog purchased through a breeder, regardless of what the laws are. I know there are good breeders out there that are dedicated to their profession and that the bad apples make them all look bad. However, I just don't know if its justifiable to seek out a specific purebred animal when hundreds of nice dogs and cats die in local shelters every month.

[achiro]

NP and I watched Westminster last night. It had a few Tulsa-area ties to it, fun times.

However, (and I can't speak for him), I think we are both mindful of the pet overpopulation. All of our pets are adopted mutts. It was fun being all like "hey, that dog has his face" and such during the purebred showings.

As such, I don't think we'll ever own a purebred dog purchased through a breeder, regardless of what the laws are. I know there are good breeders out there that are dedicated to their profession and that the bad apples make them all look bad. However, I just don't know if its justifiable to seek out a specific purebred animal when hundreds of nice dogs and cats die in local shelters every month.

Understand that shelters will be affected as well if they sell, transfer, or give away more than 25 animals in a year.

[soonerscuba]

As a person with interest in pets, shelters and animal welfare I support this bill 100%, so do vets and the Humane Society. If you are a breeder please do not lump yourself in with shelters or rescue groups, you're a major part of why they exist in the first place. I get that not all breeders are puppy mills and a lot treat their animals with care, but they are a major source of the overpopulation problem and whatever slows their activities down, I'm cool with.

[achiro]

As a person with interest in pets, shelters and animal welfare I support this bill 100%, so do vets and the Humane Society. If you are a breeder please do not lump yourself in with shelters or rescue groups, you're a major part of why they exist in the first place. I get that not all breeders are puppy mills and a lot treat their animals with care, but they are a major source of the overpopulation problem and whatever slows their activities down, I'm cool with.

This doesn't surprise me one bit. You are so far off the deep end that you make me wonder if you aren't just a troll.

Listen, I know lots LOT's of vets that aren't supporting this bill. Don't anyone let scuba's little "humane society" blurb fool you. The HSUS is an animal rights group and is not your local shelter. The HSUS is PETA with a nice name and a more "professional" front.
One thing that strikes me here is how many states have tried to put this same legislation forward at the same time. It tells me that someone(the HSUS) is writing these bills and handing them off to their lackies in different states.

Look, I am against puppy mills as much as anyone but this affects a lot more folks than just mills and the laws are already in the books for those.

Your thoughts on "breeders" and lumping them all together as part of the problem goes way beyond ignorance on the subject.

[soonerscuba]

This doesn't surprise me one bit. You are so far off the deep end that you make me wonder if you aren't just a troll.

Listen, I know lots LOT's of vets that aren't supporting this bill. Don't anyone let scuba's little "humane society" blurb fool you. The HSUS is an animal rights group and is not your local shelter. The HSUS is PETA with a nice name and a more "professional" front.
One thing that strikes me here is how many states have tried to put this same legislation forward at the same time. It tells me that someone(the HSUS) is writing these bills and handing them off to their lackies in different states.

Look, I am against puppy mills as much as anyone but this affects a lot more folks than just mills and the laws are already in the books for those.

Your thoughts on "breeders" and lumping them all together as part of the problem goes way beyond ignorance on the subject.Say what you will, but it's pretty simple: there are more pets than homes for them, breeders perpetuate this problem. I'm really not surprised that HSUS is a front for PETA, I'm guessing the AVMA and SPCA is as well. I don't care if people breed animals or not, just don't pretend you give a damn about animal welfare because it's already well beyond that if you are breeding dogs or cats to sell. The reason that this type of legislation is popping up in various states is because people feel it's needed, not a PETA conspiracy.

I will say one thing about the deep-end comment. You breed domestic animals and take medical advice from Jenny McCarthy, forgive me if I don't particularly care what you think is the deep-end. I don't really care one way or another because I think animal rights should be a fairly low priority right now, but I do think expanded regulation in this industry is an admiriable path of government policy or I've been brainwashed through vaccines and Greenpeace, it's hard to tell these days.

[JohnnyMack]

Achiro,

What's your vested interest in all this? You a breeder?

[badger]

This doesn't surprise me one bit. You are so far off the deep end that you make me wonder if you aren't just a troll.

No need to be troll calling if you disagree on a subject.

[achiro]

Achiro,

What's your vested interest in all this? You a breeder?

If breeding one litter(all presold before born) in 20 years of owning dogs is a breeder then yes I am. ;)
I am active in AKC retriever field trials so I know a lot of people in the dog world.

[achiro]

Say what you will, but it's pretty simple: there are more pets than homes for them, breeders perpetuate this problem. I'm really not surprised that HSUS is a front for PETA, I'm guessing the AVMA and SPCA is as well. I don't care if people breed animals or not, just don't pretend you give a damn about animal welfare because it's already well beyond that if you are breeding dogs or cats to sell. The reason that this type of legislation is popping up in various states is because people feel it's needed, not a PETA conspiracy.

I will say one thing about the deep-end comment. You breed domestic animals and take medical advice from Jenny McCarthy, forgive me if I don't particularly care what you think is the deep-end. I don't really care one way or another because I think animal rights should be a fairly low priority right now, but I do think expanded regulation in this industry is an admiriable path of government policy or I've been brainwashed through vaccines and Greenpeace, it's hard to tell these days.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about with Jenny McCarthy but whatever.
You are lumping all breeders into the same group and I am telling you that you are wrong. Take the litter we bred last year. I presold the entire litter before they were born. Had 4 sold before I even did the breeding. If anyone ever has an issue with keeping the dog they bought from me I will take it back no questions asked and either keep it or find it a new home. I am not alone in this. Most REPUTABLE breeders I know follow at the minimum the same rules I do. It is the back yard breeder that I think you may be talking about. They guy that just wants a pup out of ol blue and so he breeds her to the neighbors dog. Guess what! THis bill does NOTHING to address that issue. NOTHING!
We are on the same page as far as too many dogs in the shelters, this bill won't change that problem much at all.

[achiro]

No need to be troll calling if you disagree on a subject.

It's not just this topic.

[soonerscuba]

It's not just this topic.Here's the difference between me and you, I think. You don't like me because of an opinion which is fine. I just think that it's not the hallmark of a responsible person to think that vaccines are dangerous (an advocate of which is Jenny McCarthy, it's hyperbole) or that dog and cat breedings needs to be free from local regulation. So, while you label me as "off the deep-end", I frankly don't care because at minimum, I feel I exist within the mainstream of political and social thought on these issues.

[achiro]

Here's the difference between me and you, I think. You don't like me because of an opinion which is fine. I just think that it's not the hallmark of a responsible person to think that vaccines are dangerous (an advocate of which is Jenny McCarthy, it's hyperbole) or that dog and cat breedings needs to be free from local regulation. So, while you label me as "off the deep-end", I frankly don't care because at minimum, I feel I exist within the mainstream of political and social thought on these issues.

OK, I am not going to debate vaccines with you in this thread. It has nothing to do with anything.

As far as you thinking this bill is mainstream shows your ignorance on the topic. Fine, you want to support it. Fine, I am not changing your mind. BUT the problem here is that your thoughts on the topic are not mainstream at all unless you consider PETA and the HSUS mainstream. You've already made several statements that are wrong about this bill but keep "thinking" that you've got it right. :rolleyes:

[SCOUT]

OK, I am not going to debate vaccines with you in this thread. It has nothing to do with anything.

As far as you thinking this bill is mainstream shows your ignorance on the topic. Fine, you want to support it. Fine, I am not changing your mind. BUT the problem here is that your thoughts on the topic are not mainstream at all unless you consider PETA and the HSUS mainstream. You've already made several statements that are wrong about this bill but keep "thinking" that you've got it right. :rolleyes:
I don't live in OK anymore so my vote doesn't count. However, I am included in the group you requested in your title and I have to admit that I haven't read all of the details on the bill. The clips posted in this thread sound damning but they don't present the reason why such a bill would be proposed (i.e. pet overpopulation, inbreeding etc.). You seem very well versed on this subject. Would you mind providing a point - counterpoint as you see it?

[Sooner Schemer]

I'm really not surprised that HSUS is a front for PETA, I'm guessing the AVMA and SPCA is as well.I don't know much about the Humane Society, but your local SPCA is not likely to be a front for PETA.

Aside from the ASPCA, which is a national organization based in New York, local SPCA groups are independent organizations. (So if you donate to the ASPCA thinking you're supporting the SPCA where you live, you're not.)

I can't speak for groups on the Left Coast, but here in Oklahoma there's a distinct difference between Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the "Animal Rights" that PETA preaches.

And I don't know enough about this bill yet to comment on it, but the current laws on the books regarding puppy mills and animal cruelty are totally inadequate.

[soonerscuba]

I don't know much about the Humane Society, but your local SPCA is not likely to be a front for PETA.

Aside from the ASPCA, which is a national organization based in New York, local SPCA groups are independent organizations. (So if you donate to the ASPCA thinking you're supporting the SPCA where you live, you're not.)

I can't speak for groups on the Left Coast, but here in Oklahoma there's a distinct difference between Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the "Animal Rights" that PETA preaches.

And I don't know enough about this bill yet to comment on it, but the current laws on the books regarding puppy mills and animal cruelty are totally inadequate.That is what I was getting at, the ASPCA has supported similar bills in other states as well as Oklahoma.

The crux is simply to get animal dealers licensed to sell in Oklahoma, it's a quality assurance measure and gives the public at-large a means to spot check a reputable dealer. Municipal shelters are exempt and for the fees for the vast majority of dealers is modest, basically you have to sell over 500 animals per year to reach the top end of fees ($700), and your accredited shelters won't be paying more than a hundred bucks. If I were a dealer I would also welcome this, because domestic animal breeders don't exactly have the most sterling reputation and this provides a mean to buoy the whole industry. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, engineers, fast food workers, etc all need a state license to work their craft, why should dog breeders be exempt?

Frankly, I think it's a wholly reasonable bill especially because los federales aren't interested in Mary Lou's cat shack in Guymon but a local officer can better see to animal welfare at a state level.

[achiro]

I don't know much about the Humane Society, but your local SPCA is not likely to be a front for PETA.

Aside from the ASPCA, which is a national organization based in New York, local SPCA groups are independent organizations. (So if you donate to the ASPCA thinking you're supporting the SPCA where you live, you're not.)

I can't speak for groups on the Left Coast, but here in Oklahoma there's a distinct difference between Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the "Animal Rights" that PETA preaches.

And I don't know enough about this bill yet to comment on it, but the current laws on the books regarding puppy mills and animal cruelty are totally inadequate.
I agree. Both your local SPCA and the ASPCA are ok and looking out for the welfare of lost and abandon pets in most cases. Donate to your LOCAL SPCA though if you want to help. They rarely have enough funds to do the things needed. Which brings up part of the problem, they would have to aquire yet another license through the state with a fee attached because they transfer etc over X number of dogs every year.

Scuba, you are missing the major point here. It's not about the puppy mill, I agree that something needs to be done there. You also mention "breeders" several times, and like I said most of the people that you mention in that large lumping together would not even be effected under the X number of animals part. The people who would be most effected are the reputable breeder with quality animals because many of their pups will be sold out of state. Those that want to buy a quality pet from outside the state because frankly, they are not going to want to jump through hoops and pay extra to sell you a puppy People coming into the state to compete in any sort of dog games(agility, dog shows, field trials, ets) would be effected to the point that most of the organizations that put on those compititions will just stop because everyone can go to other states where they have no additional fees, search and seizure stuff and so on. That will be a loss of millions into the economy of Oklahoma.
If this bill only addressed puppy mill issues I'd be all for it, the problem is that the way it is written will do little to slow down the puppy mills.

[achiro]

The crux is simply to get animal dealers licensed to sell in Oklahoma, it's a quality assurance measure and gives the public at-large a means to spot check a reputable dealer.
You are going to show me how this would work at all based on anything in this bill?




Municipal shelters are exempt and for the fees for the vast majority of dealers is modest, basically you have to sell over 500 animals per year to reach the top end of fees ($700), and your accredited shelters won't be paying more than a hundred bucks.
Municiple shelters are the ones run and owned by the counties/cities. Most SPCA's don't fall into that catagory so you are ok with adding another fee to and organization that is part of the solution. Makes sense to me.


If I were a dealer I would also welcome this, because domestic animal breeders don't exactly have the most sterling reputation and this provides a mean to buoy the whole industry.
Are you talking about "puppy mills" or are you talking about "breeders" because there is a difference but both will be affected.