Seriously...

[soonerhubs]

Would someone kindly tell me what the stimulus package will accomplish? I'm open to anyone's rationale argument, and I honestly want some logical concise reasons as to why I should support this bill. Please, if you're going to attack either side save it for the million other threads of the South Oval, but for sake of attenuating my anxiety caused by issues beyond my control, someone please make a case for why this package:
A) will not cause inflation.
B) will actually save the economy.
C) is vital right now.
D) will not do the same damn thing the last stimulus package did.
E) will not raise the price of oil all over again due to the collapse of the dollar.
F) is better than letting these defective businesses fail.

If you've read my posts in the past, you know I am a fiscal and social conservative, but for the most part I respect opinions so again I implore you to convince me or at least make a case I can respectfully disagree on. Consider this your safe area. :D

[royalfan5]

One thing as to the strength of the dollar. Everyone else's economy sucks too, so the dollar isn't necessarily going to depreciate wildly relative to other currencies. In addition, the United States exports a lot of commodities, and other competitors in those export sectors have serious issues that could slow their export pace, which could help buttress the dollar.

[soonerhubs]

One thing as to the strength of the dollar. Everyone else's economy sucks too, so the dollar isn't necessarily going to depreciate wildly relative to other currencies. In addition, the United States exports a lot of commodities, and other competitors in those export sectors have serious issues that could slow their export pace, which could help buttress the dollar.

Thanks. I appreciate it, and I was hoping that was the case.

[soonerhubs]

Looks like I killed this thread before it even began.

[SouthFortySooner]

... no it was the use of the two words logical and concise.

[Jerk]

There is some health-care stuff in this bill that is downright scary.

Also, I'm sure ACORN will get their 4 billion or whatever.

But don't worry about what it will cost. In 4 years, when a Happy Meal is $1250.00, you'll understand that $1.2 trillion really isn't that much money.

[85Sooner]

My concern is not the immediate future but a few years from now. As far as stimulas? I don't see much of any stimulas in the bill. The speed at which they are trying to do this seems irrational to me. This amount of money is simply too much to just throw at the situation without specifics and the people who have written the bill have said as much in that they are not sure where the money is going to be used. we just HAVE to do Something.

There is no way I can support anywhere near 50% of this bill and thus I can't support it myself.

I am thinking about cashing in all my investments, paying off my house and getting a good shovel and a bunch of mason jars to me honest.

[royalfan5]

My concern is not the immediate future but a few years from now. As far as stimulas? I don't see much of any stimulas in the bill. The speed at which they are trying to do this seems irrational to me. This amount of money is simply too much to just throw at the situation without specifics and the people who have written the bill have said as much in that they are not sure where the money is going to be used. we just HAVE to do Something.

There is no way I can support anywhere near 50% of this bill and thus I can't support it myself.

I am thinking about cashing in all my investments, paying off my house and getting a good shovel and a bunch of mason jars to me honest.

If there is massive inflation, your money is going to be worthless whether it is in a bank or jar. Unless you are going to fill your mason jars with precious metals.

[Half a Hundred]

Would someone kindly tell me what the stimulus package will accomplish? I'm open to anyone's rationale argument, and I honestly want some logical concise reasons as to why I should support this bill. Please, if you're going to attack either side save it for the million other threads of the South Oval, but for sake of attenuating my anxiety caused by issues beyond my control, someone please make a case for why this package:
A) will not cause inflation. - We're already in a deflationary period. This is much scarier than some temporary inflation. Those trillions of "bad loans" are actually money that just evaporated overnight, essentially. Inflation would actually be nice right now, because it would be easier to buy up those crappy loans. Since $4 trillion has just become radioactive at best, non-existent at worst, the opposite is happening.
B) will actually save the economy. It's not going to save the economy. It's just going to make it hurt less, and prevent social discord from out-of-work people.
C) is vital right now. The economy is nothing more than a confidence game. Things go well when everyone thinks they're going well. The opposite happens when people believe things are crappy and completely out of control. Delaying countercyclical action will just make people think that it's completely beyond the United States' control, and thus make things worse
D) will not do the same damn thing the last stimulus package did. Better protections and regulations. Infrastructure investment is also a plus. I just hope we come up with something that approaches the level of confidence-building that the Rural Electrification Agency did back in the 30s
E) will not raise the price of oil all over again due to the collapse of the dollar. As already mentioned. Other currencies are doing worse than the dollar right now. The dollar is deflating.
F) is better than letting these defective businesses fail. If the businesses fail, unemployment shoots up to Depression levels (17-25%). 90% of the actions taken right now are to prevent that from happening. Contrary to what people may want to believe, it has nothing to do with boosting your 401(k) back into good standing; that ship has sailed. It has everything to do with preventing social unrest and political extremism. And before you anyone goes screaming "ZOMG Socailism!", remember, this is how economic policy was done prior to 1968's floating Bretton-Woods (made so financiers could make a quick buck). This is how Eisenhower thought economic policy should be run.

If you've read my posts in the past, you know I am a fiscal and social conservative, but for the most part I respect opinions so again I implore you to convince me or at least make a case I can respectfully disagree on. Consider this your safe area. :D

.

[Rogue]

Improving infrastructure and putting people to work is a good idea to me.
Not sure this particular package is the exact thing to do, but I'd hate to see all of the bad outcomes you predict happen while we sit around and fiddle.

[Jerk]

How much in this legislation is actually for 'infrastructure"? (not counting building new dog parks and Frisbee golf courses)

[Half a Hundred]

How much in this legislation is actually for 'infrastructure"? (not counting building new dog parks and Frisbee golf courses)

Around $40 billion (27 for highways, 8.5 for mass transit, 4.5 for various other projects).

[soonerhubs]

Thanks folks. It's good to get these responses. Half a Hundred, thanks for answering them one at a time. I really appreciate it.

[Okla-homey]

It is merely a canard, in the spirit of "not letting a good crisis go to waste" to grow government, reward the faithful and create new entitlements. IOW, "bread and circuses." No more, no less.

[CORNholio]

This is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing. A slight of hand. The economy is hurting so throw alot of money at it all at once in a hurry. Meanwhile throw all the **** in there you could never get passed in a million years. Hope nobody notices but if they do make claims that this has to be done disregarding the "free-for-all" that is taking place. Generally ramrod the American Tax Payers.

[CORNholio]

It is merely a canard, in the spirit of "not letting a good crisis go to waste" to grow government, reward the faithful and create new entitlements. IOW, "bread and circuses." No more, no less.

What he said.

[soonerhubs]

This is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing. A slight of hand. The economy is hurting so throw alot of money at it all at once in a hurry. Meanwhile throw all the **** in there you could never get passed in a million years. Hope nobody notices but if they do make claims that this has to be done disregarding the "free-for-all" that is taking place. Generally ramrod the American Tax Payers.

Although I tend to agree, lets hear some specific, broken down, argument about it. I'm looking for pork. So far, the infrastructure and increase in Pell Grants are things I have no problem with, but I do take issue with tax breaks for those who do NOT pay taxes. It's dole, it does not promote work, and it should be removed.

ACORN... In a time of great economic crisis, is this truly what 4 billion dollars should be invested in?

Let's get some specifics folks. Like I asked before, please keep the vague "Gubment is gonna screw while it gets bigger." statements for other threads.

This is a time to get specific.

[Turd_Ferguson]

... no it was the use of the two words logical and concise.don't forget buttress and ramrod.

[CORNholio]

My problem with it lies in the sheer principle of the matter. Nothing is free. Ever. You let government bail your *** out with one hand while they are taking your freedoms and liberties with the other. Creating jobs by growing the government and it's puppets is a horrible long term idea. Lots of people died for the freedoms that all these jack-holes hand over for a buck no matter how small they seem at the time. The thing is you never get them back.

[Czar Soonerov]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2423/seriously1169264im5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[CORNholio]

Capitolists do not throw around the word "nationalize" like they are chugging beers with their bro Karl Marx. Seriously WTF is wrong with people all of the sudden?

[85Sooner]

If there is massive inflation, your money is going to be worthless whether it is in a bank or jar. Unless you are going to fill your mason jars with precious metals.

Yeah but the home would be paid and MINE. At least that would be worth it.

If the economy goes that far south the social unrest he is talking about will be a forgone conclusion.

[Rogue]

Hardest thing I have with this is the way that many R's thought it was a good idea when it was W's stimulus package and many D's disagreed. Now it's all backwards. The D's agree that THIS is a good stimulus since it's BO's and most of the R's disagree. Anything this inconsistent must be crazy.

[Jerk]

Hardest thing I have with this is the way that many R's thought it was a good idea when it was W's stimulus package and many D's disagreed. Now it's all backwards. The D's agree that THIS is a good stimulus since it's BO's and most of the R's disagree. Anything this inconsistent must be crazy.

Not me.

[soonerhubs]

Hardest thing I have with this is the way that many R's thought it was a good idea when it was W's stimulus package and many D's disagreed. Now it's all backwards. The D's agree that THIS is a good stimulus since it's BO's and most of the R's disagree. Anything this inconsistent must be crazy.

To be fair I was and still am against both bailouts and any future thought of bail outs.

[Vaevictis]

So far, the infrastructure and increase in Pell Grants are things I have no problem with, but I do take issue with tax breaks for those who do NOT pay taxes.

Pretty much everyone pays taxes. Not everyone pays income tax.

Just sayin'.

[OklahomaTuba]

Hardest thing I have with this is the way that many R's thought it was a good idea when it was W's stimulus package and many D's disagreed. Now it's all backwards. The D's agree that THIS is a good stimulus since it's BO's and most of the R's disagree. Anything this inconsistent must be crazy.

Sorry, but the house donks wrote this bill, without the input of the GOP, and it is the biggest POS to ever come out of the US congress.

That is why they are opposed to it.

$300,000 per job? Give me a ****ing break.

[OklahomaTuba]

Pretty much everyone pays taxes. Not everyone pays income tax.

Just sayin'.


Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

[Vaevictis]

Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

You're welcome. People forget it all the time.

(Or deliberately neglect it, who knows.)

[OklahomaTuba]

I wish they would at least cut the capital gains and corporate rate. F the income tax, just cut that one for the love of God. Give the markets a reason to rally so we can shake off some of this fear.

[Vaevictis]

What happens when the markets promptly crash again due to horrible earnings reports?

[tommieharris91]

I wish they would at least cut the capital gains and corporate rate. F the income tax, just cut that one for the love of God. Give the markets a reason to rally so we can shake off some of this fear.

If you can stomach some (more) losses, now is the time to buy good companies like IBM.

[Vaevictis]

Here, let's have some fun.

Tax paid on zero earnings @ 35%: $0
Tax paid on zero earnings @ 25%: $0

Value of 10% tax cut: $0

Value of tax shield from $100k loss @ 35% : $35000
Value of tax shield from $100k loss @ 25% : $25000

Value of 10% tax cut: -$10000

In other words, income tax cuts are worse than worthless to companies that are losing money.

[OklahomaTuba]

Income taxes would be immediate stimulus on the economy, and they work.

Unlike spending trillions on abortions, bee insurance and filling potholes, which not only DOESN'T work (never has) nor will it happen anytime soon.

I know libz don't like history and such, but tax cuts always work. The New Deal and Great Society were massive failures.

[Vaevictis]

I know libz don't like history and such, but tax cuts always work. The New Deal and Great Society were massive failures.

Prove it. And, before you start, recall that post hoc ergo propter hoc isn't proof, it's fallacy.

[sooner KB]

B) will actually save the economy.
C) is vital right now.



It's not like the economy will be saved immediately after passing or anything, but here's why it is vital:

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/6/recession.jpg

Yes, the brown line is job loss of the current recession. To answer your first question, the bill will be helpful in that it will undoubtedly create millions of jobs. It's vital right now because that brown line will continue to drop for quite a while. For every week that we delay, it will be hundreds of thousands more people that lose their jobs.



D) will not do the same damn thing the last stimulus package did.


The last stimulus package consisted only of tax cuts (which is why it didn't work), where as this bill is focused mostly on job creation.

http://www.epi.org/page/-/img/20081022snapshot600.jpg

This graph shows the economic benefit for each dollar spent. Notice that over $500 billion of this bill is for the top 4 items.

It is also important to note that the highway/transit infrastructure portion of the bill isn't the only part that will create jobs. For instance, a large portion of the bill is aid to states. This will help prevent even more firefighters, policemen, teachers, etc. from getting fired.

Here are some of the parts of the bill that will create jobs:

$27 billion for highway and bridge construction and repair
$12 billion for mass transit
$31 billion to build and repair federal buildings and other public infrastructures
$22 billion to modernize health information technology systems
$10 billion for construction of National Institutes of Health facilities
$21 billion for school modernization
$1.6 billion to make schools and hospitals more energy efficient.
$6.2 billion to weatherize homes
$11 billion to fund a “smart electricity grid”
$3.5 billion in grants to state and local law enforcement to hire officers
$8.5 billion to subsidize loans for renewable energy projects
$7 billion to expand broadband to rural areas
$3.4 billion for repair, restoration and improvement of public facilities at
parks, forests, refuges and on other public and tribal lands.
$2.4 billion for Department of Defense facilities (military family housing, barracks, etc)
$3.7 billion for VA hospital and medical facility construction and
improvements
$1 billion to accelerate procurement and installation of baggage screening and
checkpoint security equipment at airports across the country.
$500 million for competitive grants to build fire stations.
$1.2 billion to GSA for construction and repairs for GSA border stations
to improve border security.
$800 million to reduce the $6 billion construction backlog for points of entry on
our borders

To say this bill is nothing but "pork" is completely bogus.

[OklahomaTuba]

What happened after the 2001/02 tax cuts???

Compare that to what happened after the New Deal started, and its not even close.

[SoonerBorn68]

Also, I'm sure ACORN will get their 4 billion or whatever.


Wait a minute. ACORN is getting more money than the entire state of Oklahoma?

I got this email reponse from Dan Boren:


In the current language of the recovery package, Oklahoma is expected to receive over $761 million in funding over the next two years including over $464 million in money for highways and bridges and over $46 million in funding for the Clean Water State Revolving Fund. A projected 3,400 households will be assisted with the over $12 million in Emergency Shelter Grants and another $40 million will go to fund law enforcement and drug treatment programs through JAG-Byrne grants.

[OklahomaTuba]

[QUOTE=soonerhubler;2577154]
Here are some of the parts of the bill that will create jobs:

$27 billion for highway and bridge construction and repair
$12 billion for mass transit
$31 billion to build and repair federal buildings and other public infrastructures
$22 billion to modernize health information technology systems
$10 billion for construction of National Institutes of Health facilities
$21 billion for school modernization
$6.2 billion to weatherize homes
$11 billion to fund a “smart electricity grid”
$3.5 billion in grants to state and local law enforcement to hire officers
$8.5 billion to subsidize loans for renewable energy projects
$7 billion to expand broadband to rural areas
$3.4 billion for repair, restoration and improvement of public facilities at
parks, forests, refuges and on other public and tribal lands.
$2.4 billion for Department of Defense facilities (military family housing, barracks, etc)
$3.7 billion for VA hospital and medical facility construction and
improvements
$1 billion to accelerate procurement and installation of baggage screening and
checkpoint security equipment at airports across the country.

So, 20% of the "stimulus" goes towards stuff that makes jobs???

Awesome!

[Vaevictis]

What happened after the 2001/02 tax cuts???

A perfect example of post hoc ergo propter hoc if I ever saw one. Thanks.

Now that we're done kidding around, let's have some of that proof that I'm sure you have, given the strength of your claim about how they always work.


Compare that to what happened after the New Deal started, and its not even close.

It couldn't possibly have anything to with a better understanding of monetary policy, a more effective Fed and other central banking systems, and not being chained to the gold standard, could it?

You know, like actual economists might argue?

[OklahomaTuba]

Wait a minute. ACORN is getting more money than the entire state of Oklahoma?

I got this email reponse from Dan Boren:

[FONT=Garamond]
Looks like ACORN gets more than some of the "Job" portion of the stimulus gets.

This is the biggest POS to ever come out of washington, hands down.

[OklahomaTuba]

A perfect example of post hoc ergo propter hoc if I ever saw one. Thanks.

Theory is nice and all, but I'd rather stick to real world testing and real results.

20%. You've got to be kidding me.

[Vaevictis]

Theory is nice and all, but I'd rather stick to real world testing and real results.

Except it's not real world testing, because there are too many variables unaccounted for.

For all you know, that recovery occurred because Greenspan tanked the Fed funds rate.

Or maybe it occurred because, hey, economies recover.

[Vaevictis]

I mean, hell, for a hundred years and more this country didn't even have an income tax.

We had economic booms, and busts, and recoveries. Why'd they happen then? It's not like we could lower the income tax rate before there was an income tax.

[sooner KB]

[QUOTE=sooner KB;2577397]

So, 20% of the "stimulus" goes towards stuff that makes jobs???

Awesome!

I agree, much more should be spent on job creation programs and much less on tax cuts. This would probably be the case if it wasn't for the need to make a large percent of the bill tax cuts to prevent a senate republican fillibuster.

[Soonerinatex]

Theory is nice and all, but I'd rather stick to real world testing and real results.

20%. You've got to be kidding me.

Do you have any real world testing/results of economics? The economists of the world don't have the luxury of a litmus test. There are no 'controlled experiments' in economics in the times of global economic crisis. The limited history we have on global financial meltdowns tells us nothing about what we should do today. So, theory is all we have. I'd like to see the proven testing and results you speak of.

[sooner KB]

It's been interesting to hear people (including Senator McConnell) make the argument that the New Deal didn't do anything. Take a look:

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/363/Depression_GDP_output_1.gif

The only time teh GDP did not go up (and actually went down) was the year after government spending was cut.

[Vaevictis]

I'd like to see the proven testing and results you speak of.

Hell, everyone would. It'd net him the Nobel Prize in Economics (and its rather sweet cash prize) if he could show it.

Nah, he's got nothing. All of the field of economics searches for a silver bullet for fixing a recession, and Tuba's got the answer? buahahahahaha.

[sooner KB]

Looks like ACORN gets more than some of the "Job" portion of the stimulus gets.

This is the biggest POS to ever come out of washington, hands down.

ACORN is not getting anything out of the stimulus bill. ACORN is not mentioned once. If it is, please cite the page # of the bill.

[Soonerinatex]

Hell, everyone would. It'd net him the Nobel Prize in Economics (and its rather sweet cash prize) if he could show it.

Nah, he's got nothing. All of the field of economics searches for a silver bullet for fixing a recession, and Tuba's got the answer? buahahahahaha.

what a sweet prize it would be.. ahh, hookers and blow... I digress.

I have to disagree with you on one point though; I don't think real economists are looking for the silver bullet because it doesn't exist.

The guys who claim to be economists (because that's what their diploma says)
and get their faces on CNN/Fox are looking for that bullet, and are trying to convince us that we should be looking for it too. They do nothing but create FUD.

[Vaevictis]

I have to disagree with you on one point though; I don't think real economists are not looking for the silver bullet because it doesn't exist.

Bah, gross oversimplification to emphasize just how absurd Tuba's claim was.

You're ruining my fun. Cut it out. Get off my lawn. Rabble, rabble, etc.

[Soonerinatex]

Bah, gross oversimplification to emphasize just how absurd Tuba's claim was.

You're ruining my fun. Cut it out. Get off my lawn. Rabble, rabble, etc.

My bad, bring on the hookers and blow!

[soonerscuba]

Calling the New Deal a failure is pure hyperbole ingrained in those more committed to politics than policy. In addition, the New Deal did work and I would make the argument that it didn't go far enough. Eisenhower proved that the gov't expansion of infrastructure could have decades long positive effects, I think foresight would have expanded the highway system in the 30s and allowed for an even more efficient Nazi/Jap *** kicking machine. Further, I don't think that we can say the New Deal worked once before so this time it will again. The American economy is fundamentally different, an equivalent would be a doctor saying that since Valtrex fixed herpes right up it has work for a sinus infection.

As for the OP, it's a ridicoulous bill that is laden with goop that won't do a damn thing but ensure that districts are held, my hope is that there is enough good stuff to overplay and make a dent in paying for it. I do know one thing, the mood of the country is for democratic policy, and the Republicans are smart to stay the hell away. If it works, it's going to legislative victory for the Dems and they won't get credit anyway. If it doesn't you can paint yourself as the party that knew all along. The chief reason for Democratic losses earlier this decade laid in the fact that they tried to play down a Republican shift as opposed to being an opposition, Republicans probably won't make the same mistake.

As for the assumption that it's unique for a party to be left out of neogotiation, you must have a short memory. There are countless examples of it, how much did House Democrats input to Medicare 2003? The answer may surprise you.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I guess this kinda relates to the New Deal argument on here, but let's just stick to today.

The parts of the stimulus that relate to infrastructure, including the parts that are already abandoned, would provide jobs immediately. Building roads, building/repairing bridges, building schools, atc. all improve our country and also provide at least short term employment.

The fluff can go, though I do see a good reason to keep people who can't afford more kids from breeding, but that's out either way!

I'm hesitant to agree with the middle and lower class tax credits and cuts except I fit right in there and guess it would help me right now! lol

But seriously...if they wanna help in some way instead of issuing free money to people the same thing could be accomplished through some sort of voucher that is spendable on American made goods, rent, mortgage etc. and is not allowed to be applied to ANY foreign made product. That would eliminate the Wal Mart argument that was had when Bush and the Dems gave tax rebates last year. All that money went to broke *** people who stretched it the best they could by buying wal-mart shat made in China. Give some kinda ebt card that requires that all purchases are spent on OUR economy, not paying kids in China 10 cents a day.

I'm on too many tangents here, but enacted sensibly the worst thing that could happen is we'd have better roads, more schools, and maybe float a few people who DO want to work for their keep until everything picks up and some of these things would in turn cause it to pick up sooner.

That said, by the time both parties pork it to death on BS and refusing to allow the other side's sensible ideas it'll be hard to tell what worked and didn't and both will claim messiah-hood and say the other are morons.

That's how our idiotic system works.

[OUHOMER]

So, have we decided if this package is going to help or not?

[sooner n houston]

ACORN is not getting anything out of the stimulus bill. ACORN is not mentioned once. If it is, please cite the page # of the bill.

House Republican Leader John Boehner (R-OH) disagrees!

ACORN Could Get Billions from Democrats' Trillion Dollar Spending Plan
"Job Creation" Bill Offers Taxpayer-Funded Bonanza for Organization Reportedly Under Federal Investigation

Washington, Jan 23 - The House Democrats’ trillion dollar spending bill, approved on January 21 by the Appropriations Committee and headed to the House floor next week for a vote, could open billions of taxpayer dollars to left-wing groups like the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN). ACORN has been accused of perpetrating voter registration fraud numerous times in the last several elections; is reportedly under federal investigation; and played a key role in the irresponsible schemes that caused a financial meltdown that has cost American taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars since last fall.

House Republican Leader John Boehner (R-OH) and other Republicans are asking a simple question: what does this have to do with job creation? Are Congressional Democrats really going to borrow money from our children and grandchildren to give handouts to ACORN in the name of economic “stimulus?”

Incredibly, the Democrats’ bill makes groups like ACORN eligible for a $4.19 billion pot of money for “neighborhood stabilization activities.” Funds for this purpose were authorized in the Housing and Economic Recovery Act, signed into law in 2008. However, these funds were limited to state and local governments. Now House Democrats are taking the unprecedented step of making ACORN and other groups eligible for these funds:

“For a further additional amount for ‘Community Development Fund,’ $4,190,000,000, to be used for neighborhood stabilization activities related to emergency assistance for the redevelopment of abandoned and foreclosed homes as authorized under division B, title III of the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008 (Public Law 110–289), of which—

“(1) not less than $3,440,000,000 shall be allocated by a competition for which eligible entities shall be States, units of general local government, and nonprofit entities or consortia of nonprofit entities[.]”

“(2) up to $750,000,000 shall be awarded by competition to nonprofit entities or consortia of nonprofit entities to provide community stabilization assistance […]”

The House Democrats’ trillion dollar spending bill also includes $1 billion for the Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) Program. CDBG funds are given by the federal government to state and local governments which often contract with nonprofits for services related to the purpose of the grant.

ACORN knows how to secure CDBG funds. Audit reports filed by ACORN’s headquarters with the Office of Management and Budget show that ACORN spent $1,588,599 in Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) Program funds from FY 2003 through FY 2007. It is not clear from these records when or from what source the funds were awarded to ACORN. It is also not clear whether ACORN chapters or affiliates have received CDBG grants on their own.

House Republican Leader John Boehner (R-OH) repeatedly urged President George W. Bush and other federal officials to withhold taxpayer funds from ACORN, including $17.2 million in federal grants awarded in December 2008 after numerous allegations of wrongdoing in connection with ACORN’s election activities were reported by the news media.

Leader Boehner also released a study of federal records in October 2008 listing tens of millions in federal grants received by ACORN. A new updated and more expansive study reveals that ACORN has actually received millions more than first thought. A review of the Federal Register and news releases issued by federal agencies showed that ACORN was awarded more than $53 million in taxpayer dollars. This amount does not reflect the millions more ACORN has received in federal block grant funds awarded to state and local agencies which passed them on to ACORN.
http://republicanleader.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=109339

[Vaevictis]

So, have we decided if this package is going to help or not?

Let's make it simple. It's going to help some people. It will certainly prevent some people from ending up in soup lines (so to speak).

But the economy is too complex, has too many variables, to really say for sure exactly how any move by the government is going to turn out. This could be a great plan that nips this recession in the bud and sends GDP back up. It could also be a plan that has nominal effect and ends up burdening us with $1+ trillion in debt.

One thing Tuba is correct about is that much of the economy is an expectations game. If this package convinces enough people that somebody is doing something and restores a little optimism into the system, that'll be valuable and it's something money can't (directly) buy.

Basically, my take on the issue is that almost anything with even marginal credibility is better than nothing. It needs to look like someone is running the ship.

[DoubleD]

This is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing. A slight of hand. The economy is hurting so throw alot of money at it all at once in a hurry. Meanwhile throw all the **** in there you could never get passed in a million years. Hope nobody notices but if they do make claims that this has to be done disregarding the "free-for-all" that is taking place. Generally ramrod the American Tax Payers.


So true! And it's sad.

[DoubleD]

[QUOTE=OklahomaTuba;2577404]

I agree, much more should be spent on job creation programs and much less on tax cuts. This would probably be the case if it wasn't for the need to make a large percent of the bill tax cuts to prevent a senate republican fillibuster.

Can you spell idiot?
In any case, I hope you are the first one to lose your job.

[SoonerBorn68]

Can you spell idiot?


D-o-u-b-l-e D

[OUMallen]

To be fair I was and still am against both bailouts and any future thought of bail outs.

I think the first one probably did help, although it widely missed the mark. I like to think of it as maybe not hitting bullseye, but at least it hit the dartboard when the board needed to be hit

[soonerhubs]

This thread in some ways was helpful, except for the two sides using it as a venue to throw out more hyperbole, oversimplification, accusations of oversimplification, name calling, and usual politicizing of an issue I think warrants logical concise debate.

:D Since logical concise debate is out of the question, I've decided the only solution come crisis time is to move back to Tenkiller, start a compound, raise grapes, harvest blackberries, and live off squirrel meat, frog legs, and catfish for the rest of my days. That is a part of economics that will always make sense to me: Shoot a squirrel with a 22 shell, not a shot gun, trot lines are only illegal if you get caught, and run like hell when you hear buzzing around the black berry bushes (True story, it was the first and only time I said S*** in front of Grandma).

I have come to the conclusion that no matter what those jackasses in DC (Red or Blue) do, I will always be able to provide for my house. After all, we Hublers stayed in Oklahoma even during the great depression. Picking cotton for a nickel and bushel on the same fields on which we now cut hay.

Sometimes I wonder why I'm still in Academia.

[fadada1]

i wonder if i'm too old to get back in the navy... this time with a commission. seems like a pretty safe move right now.

[sooner KB]

This thread in some ways was helpful, except for the two sides using it as a venue to throw out more hyperbole, oversimplification, accusations of oversimplification, name calling, and usual politicizing of an issue I think warrants logical concise debate.

:D Since logical concise debate is out of the question, I've decided the only solution come crisis time is to move back to Tenkiller, start a compound, raise grapes, harvest blackberries, and live off squirrel meat, frog legs, and catfish for the rest of my days. That is a part of economics that will always make sense to me: Shoot a squirrel with a 22 shell, not a shot gun, trot lines are only illegal if you get caught, and run like hell when you hear buzzing around the black berry bushes (True story, it was the first and only time I said S*** in front of Grandma).

I have come to the conclusion that no matter what those jackasses in DC (Red or Blue) do, I will always be able to provide for my house. After all, we Hublers stayed in Oklahoma even during the great depression. Picking cotton for a nickel and bushel on the same fields on which we now cut hay.

Sometimes I wonder why I'm still in Academia.

It seems like you're saying you don't care what Washington does because you know you will be able to provide for your family. Makes sense, and I've had the same thought, but remember that not everybody right now can provide for their family through no fault of their own (because they simply can't find a job). On top of that, when this country is in an economic crisis, it means our unemployed do not have health insurance for themselves and their children. Therefore recessions hurt us more in that respect than they do every other first world country.

[soonerhubs]

It seems like you're saying you don't care what Washington does because you know you will be able to provide for your family. Makes sense, and I've had the same thought, but remember that not everybody right now can provide for their family through no fault of their own (because they simply can't find a job). On top of that, when this country is in an economic crisis, it means our unemployed do not have health insurance for themselves and their children. Therefore recessions hurt us more in that respect than they do every other first world country.

I appreciate that first statement, but that last part is what I take issue with. It's like in The Jungle with Upton Sinclair. Jurgis was so busy running around complaining about the cold weather and how they were "stuck" in that situation, when I'm thinking, why doesn't he just move south for the winter, squat on some land, raise a garden, hunt some squirrels, and feed his family like so many other people do. Instead Sinclair perpetuates an atmosphere of total dependence on higher power blames the big fat corporation's and uses it as an excuse to move our dependence off of Private THE MAN on to Government THE MAN. I don't mind fatalism as a coping mechanism, but when there are options one is not pursuing then there are excuses one is pursuing. Unemployment is scary, I've been there, and I'll probably be there again, but there are always options. Also, while we were all living high on the hog, how many of us saved money, stored a year supply of food, and prepared for the time of need?