PDA

View Full Version : My thoughts on Kelvin Sampson...



the_ouskull
1/17/2009, 03:10 PM
...but Joe C. and Boren seem to have a way of instilling loyalty; at least for coaches that haven't worn out their welcome, (cough) K.S.

I wrote this as a response to another thread, a quote from which I just listed, but wanted to post it as its own thread. This has been a long time coming. This is my Kelvin Sampson rant.

-----

Joe C. could have gotten rid of Kelvin when he got there in 1998, and nobody would have thought very much of it. Sure, Kelvin won National Coach of the Year (for the first of TWO times while he was at Oklahoma...) his first season, but he "did that with Billy's players," etc, etc... But what ELSE did he do?

1995: 1st Round NCAA upset loss to Manhattan.
1996: 1st Round NCAA beatdown at the hands of Temple.
1997: Healthy run in the conference tournament, losing to a hot Mizzou team in the finals. 1st Round NCAA loss to Stanford.
1998: Healthy run in the conference tournament, losing to a hot Kansas team in the finals. 1st Round NCAA loss to Indiana in a game that wasn't as close as the score indicated.

Tack onto all of that, the fact that he wasn't "Joe C's Guy," and yeah, getting rid of Sampson would have been really, really easy.

He didn't.

Joe C did what Joe C does. He recognized talent.

We were rewarded with a Sweet 16 trip in 1999, and then the beginning of the Hollis Price era at OU. We know how that went. Final Four. Elite Eight. Kelvin also picked up that 2nd Coach of the Year trophy that I mentioned earlier.

So what happened? My thoughts and honest opinion.

He was frustrated (remember that word, I'll be coming back to it) by the (behind-the-scenes) events of the end of the 2004 season, leading into 2005, and culminating with his "departure," in 2006. Namely, Lavender and Foust weren't exactly "Kelvin Guys," and the trouble that they got themselves into, both while at OU and afterwards, reflects that as well. So does the entire 2005 season, which ended with a PAINFUL 2nd Round loss to Utah. (And before any numbn*ts says, "coaching," Kelvin was, and is, PROVEN as a coach of the game of basketball. Lay the blame where it's due.)

How does a team that could roll a lineup of:

1 - Drew Lavender
2 - Lawrence McKenzie
3 - Nate Carter
4 - Kevin Bookout
5 - Taj Grey

Bench: Johnnie Gilbert, Brandon Foust, Terrell Everett, and a young David Godbold, and even Longar Longar, for all of those of you who inexplicably loved him.

...end up losing to Andrew Bogut-led Utah?

That team had no cohesiveness whatsoever. If you want to put THAT on Sampson, feel free, because it does fall under the duties of the job title "Coach" to a degree... But, he was tired of it; sick and tired of it, and at the end of the 2005 season, he thought it would end... but it didn't. Look at the major differences between the 2005 team and the 2006 team.

- No Drew, no Foust. They left. They weren't Kelvin guys to start with. We REALLY needed Drew that next season, but not if he was going to spend the majority of the season being "I don't give a sh*t" Drew instead of "Buzzer Beater at K-State" Drew. Where this really hurt us was, coupled with the loss of Deangelo Alexander the previous year, also a tough year, Kelvin was starting to wonder if he wasn't going about things the wrong way. For anybody who is asked to be a leader of young people, this is a common question; but it can also be a question that can debilitate your thought process if you allow it to.
- No glue. We lost Gilbert. He (more-or-less single-handedly) held together than 2005 team. With his loss, the 2006 team suffered from a lack of toughness and featured two guys who thought that they were auditioning for the NBA (Everett and Gray) and possibly the most skilled of them all, and the hardest worker on the team, frustrated to death by the entire situation, and concentrating on other arenas again. (Bookout)
- The closest thing that we had to a true point guard was Austin Johnson, a true freshman who played the 2 in high school. Then we had Everett. He had the best handle of anybody on the team. Sadly, he also felt like he had to show that at every available opportunity. Our two best players were post players, and we had Terrell "Maybe the Bobcats Will Love Me" Everett jacking up shots to the tune of a 5.1 percent drop in his overall FG%, and a 5.8% drop in his 3pt%. (He also shot 2, and 1.5 more shots per game in those categories, respectively.) In addition, he averaged a full 1.3 TO's per game more, despite playing in all of the games from the year before, and starting in all but one. He wasn't "learning the game" at that point. What he was doing was trying to show that he was a "balla."

So, between the losses of personnel, and the losses on the court, and also, Kelvin's personal losses off of the court, which should NEVER be discounted, things weren't terribly easy for Kelvin during the era ending in the 2006 season. Back-to-back years of Hell. How many of you have gone through that at a job? Did you start questioning yourself? Did you start wondering what you needed to do differently to make things work again; to make them "right" again?

Kelvin knew. He needed to WIN. And, in order to win at the college level, you need excellent coaching (check) and skilled players (not so fast there, check mark guy...) teaching and learning in state-of-the-art facilities.

But, in his (I'm back to that word from the beginning now... this is what's known as closure; or, coming full circle, if you prefer that particular idiom...) frustration, he forgot about WHO he was, and what had gotten him to where he was.

- And he cheated. There. I said it. He knew the rules and he didn't follow them. It led to his departure from OU for Indiana. It led to his termination from Indiana. But, honestly, that's not the guy that we hired, and that's not the guy that I remember from all of the dealings that I had with him. To me, he's still the all-time winningest coach in OU history, and the coach with the best record in the conference tournament too.

...and I feel like he deserves a little more respect than he tends to get for what he accomplished while he was here at OU. A lot of you that weren't fans until Stoops got hired as the football coach may not remember the John Blake years, but I do. I also remember still giving a sh*t about OU athletics, 1) because that's what I do, but 2) because of Kelvin Sampson, and the way he coached and his teams played. He came to a football school, and, at least for a few years, turned it into a basketball school, with a little help from a head coach who thought that changing not only trigger men, but entire guns, during a game would be a good idea.

If that, and my feelings regarding Kelvin Sampson puts me in the minority... well, so does my I.Q. I'll manage.

-----

If you read all of this, thanks for your time. If you didn't, keep on chanting your clever variation of "fire Kelvin Sampson," or "screw Kelvin Sampson" every time the opportunity for you to try to forget his legacy presents itself. It'll be easier for me to spot you that way.

the_ouskull

StoopTroup
1/17/2009, 03:37 PM
I feel bad for the guys that poured their hearts out for him and OU, only to later have to defend the actions of Kelvin himself.


Forgive him.

Forget him.

oumartin
1/17/2009, 04:24 PM
kelvin=Blah!


got his coaching a@@ handed to him anytime he went up against anyone with a clue

the_ouskull
1/17/2009, 05:50 PM
I feel bad for the guys that poured their hearts out for him and OU, only to later have to defend the actions of Kelvin himself.

Forgive him.

Forget him.

Agreed, and sad about my personal membership in said category. I don't like the way that things ended with the man, but I refuse to attack him. It's not like he was a BAD coach; like a Howard or a John Blake. He was a really, really good; even great, coach... but a flawed human being, as are we all. (Hail Mary. Let he without sin, etc, etc...) I don't have to like the situation to understand it. I don't have to understand the previous situation to be happy with the current one, either. We lost a great one. We gained a really good, young, confident one with the potential for greatness and the pedigree to back that up.

Forgive him? In time. Forget him? Not happening. Move on? Absolutely. As of Day 1. I'm an OU fan first. I just don't want the accomplishments of (arguably) the best basketball coach in OU history being sullied by every gap-toothed mouthbreather that thinks they're funny enough to try to attack Sampson, press "Submit Reply," and draw a crowd. If they're "man" enough to say what they have to say about Kelvin, then they should man up to my rebuttals, too, no? The truth is, there is a (rather large) group of people who aren't knowledgeable enough about the game to realize, or who don't date as far back in their OU fandom (thanks, Bob Stoops!) to remember the entire scope of what Kelvin both accomplished, and meant, for OU.

That's all. :D

the_ouskull

soonervegas
1/17/2009, 06:04 PM
I think I read an article to where kelvin really started the questionable stuff with bookouts recruitment and later. Which is weird to me seeing how he was coming off his greatest successes with some under the radar players (white, price, brown, selvy, and mcgee) What was his reasoning to fudge the rules to hit some higher level recruits? Was he afraid he had to keep up that standard yearly?

I think kelvin bought in to his mystic a little and turned away from what made him successful his 1st 20 years.

As great as kelvin was (and I was a big fan from 1999 on) I think we somehow managed to upgrade.

MojoRisen
1/17/2009, 06:20 PM
Kelvin, clearly knew how to coach.. I hated his style well before the scandal's.

I just didn't like the dude or his style & now his crookedness and stupidity.

the_ouskull
1/18/2009, 12:33 AM
Kelvin, clearly knew how to coach.. I hated his style well before the scandal's.

Uh, which is it? I mean, if you admit that he knew how to coach, which he did, but also say that you hated his style, now I'm confused. Most fans of a team don't have a big problem with winning.

As for the other post, I think that his reasoning was to avoid the problems that I detailed above. Players like Terrell Everett wanted to "get theirs," often at the expense of the team. Kelvin wanted to go after high profile guys that, 1) would bring a buzz back to the program to kind of wash the stink of the past couple of seasons away, and 2) would be easier for marginally good (like Everett) player to defer to, for the good of team. I mean, that's it as best as I can figure, and I promise you I've analyzed the entire situation in my head literally hundreds of times. In college basketball, recruiting = winning, and, after a few years of not winning, especially after being close enough to taste that championship in 2002, he wanted to make a change; ANY change, as long as it helped OU win... as long as it helped Kelvin win.


What was his reasoning to fudge the rules to hit some higher level recruits? Was he afraid he had to keep up that standard yearly?

Yes, he was. When he got to OU, he had no football program to speak of. Once Stoops got here, interest in OU basketball started to wane again, and signing bad*ss recruiting classes always arouses interest in a flagging program. Also, with Bob winning it all in his season season, Kelvin started to feel a bit of pressure. Not in the conventional (or stereotypical) sense, like with alums and Joe C. pressuring him, "Win or you're gone," or anything like that. I'm sure, though, that it was just professional pressure. Kelvin is a competitor, and with football winning, and fans turning away from basketball again, ALONG with everything that I've already mentioned, I believe that he felt like he needed to make a big splash.

I'll take your responses off of the air...

the_ouskull

birddog
1/18/2009, 07:26 AM
FIRE CALVIN SIMPSON!!!!:kelvin:

he poured every ounce of energy into this program and i really appreciate him for that. he had to put robert allison on the court for god's sake!

i never cared much that he cheated either. i was just surprised he'd use a university phone. it's like he didn't even try to avoid being caught.

he got lazy with recruiting and he was too lazy to make sure he covered his butt (phone records etc.)

sounds like he was worn the f out.

birddog
1/18/2009, 07:31 AM
I just don't want the accomplishments of (arguably) the best basketball coach in OU history being sullied by every gap-toothed mouthbreather that thinks they're funny enough to try to attack Sampson, press "Submit Reply," and draw a crowd. If they're "man" enough to say what they have to say about Kelvin, then they should man up to my rebuttals, too, no?
the_ouskull


martin, i think he's talking about you behind your back. and RIGHT TO YOUR FACE!

oumartin
1/18/2009, 08:07 AM
I'm too lazy to read the skullz long winded replies!
What did Kelvin accomplish at OU?
year 1. Loss to Manhattan in first round.
year 2. His team got abused by John Cheney(the team was baffled) in round 1
year 3. A double digit loss to Stanford in the first round
year 4. A first round loss to Indiana
year 5. Hey, two wins in the tournament! bout damn time but you can't score 50 against the eventual national champion. Sampsons first good win in the tourney though against arizona.
year 6. 1 win in the tourney and a loss against Purdue.
year 7. 1st round loss to Indiana State!
year 8. Final four year(obviously the most talent KS team). Beat a good Arizona team by double digits as well. Good year but lost to a team they had no business losing to. Everyone in American had them penciled in to win the whole thing after making the final four.
year 9. Elite 8(again the same guys on the floor) got absolutely embarrassed by Syracuse' zone. Its not that we lost but how we lost
year 10. NIT, nuff said
year 11. Hey, lets lose to Utah in the second round.
Year 12. First round loss to Milwaukee Wisconsin

now, granted in 1999 they overachieved. They beat a good Arizona team in the tourney. Good job Kelvin

in 2002 they were the most talented team left and didn't even get to play for it all!
There is a pattern with Sampson. He lost several first round games as a higher seed and many times when his teams would be scoring in the 40's in a NCAA touney game he would look baffled on the sideline!

Sampson did at OU what any coach with a clue could do at OU. He averaged a little over 20 wins a season and made the NCAA. Any coach with Hollis, Quannis, Selvy, Ace and those guys would have made deep tourney runs.

Basically you are judged as a Coach by what you do in the Tourney.
2 good runs in the tourney in 12 years and several first round exists.

The argument will be made about how good his teams played on defense and how they dived for every lose ball and hustled and scraped and were physical.
Let me ask you this. If he was coaching another team would we view him the same way or would you say he coached dirty ball?

I guess what I am trying to say is that once it gets tourney time you better be able to do more than play defense. You better know how to score and you better know how to coach. Many times the last two didnt' happen.

cheezyq
1/18/2009, 12:41 PM
I agree with skull's analysis, nearly completely. Maybe it was just the fact that OU was a football school, but the guy was never able to successfully recruit high school talent. That's probably what led to the perception that he couldn't "develop" players. His most talented players were either thugs and left, or they were JUCO transfers. It's hard to blame that all on Sampson, but he certainly deserves some of the blame, as Tubbs was able to draw talent to OU during the height of OU football. Capel has clearly shown that he's a capable recruiter, too.

He WAS a great coach because he could get so much out of so little talent. The problem was that when he faced other good coaches who also had talented teams, it was just too much.

I loved the lock-down defense that we played at times under Sampson. But you have to admit that sometimes the games were...well...boring. We played sloppy offense a lot of the time. Most of that was due to the fact that we rarely had players with good ball-handling skills, or above average athleticism.

The bottom line was the KS was a great coach. But I don't blame Sooner fans for being a bit upset at how he left OU. The fact is, whatever his intentions or frustrations, OU basketball was left in shambles when he bolted for Indiana. Then for him to follow up his cheating at OU with cheating at Indiana, it's hard to feel sorry for a guy who doesn't learn from his mistakes. If it weren't for Capel, I imagine that there would be a near-obsessive hatred of KS. But with the promise that this team has shown under Capel, I think most of OU fans are merely indifferent at KS.

bluedogok
1/18/2009, 02:37 PM
Uh, which is it? I mean, if you admit that he knew how to coach, which he did, but also say that you hated his style, now I'm confused. Most fans of a team don't have a big problem with winning.
You don't have to like a coaches "style" to appreciate the the talent. I can appreciate how good of a coach Bob Knight was and not like his "style", most were respectful of what former Princeton coach Pete Carril did there but most people didn't like his style of play. Most of us who didn't like his style probably grew up on the Tubbs era of OU basketball. But as we have all witnessed, the game has changed to football on hardwood, and I think most of us don't like that game as much as the more athletic variety that Tubbs OU teams, Tark's UNLV, Richardson's Arkansas teams and a few others played.

Just like Tubbs seemed to "wear out" towards the end of his tenure, I think Calvin did as well. There just seems to be a much shorter "shelf life" on basketball coaches at football schools than there is for the football coaches or basketball coaches at basketball schools. I was ready for him to go before the sanctions, after the last Final Four I just never felt like he was going to get beyond that level and it was time for a new regime...luckily Indiana bailed Joe C. out.

the_ouskull
1/18/2009, 03:09 PM
I'm too lazy to read the skullz long winded replies!

Well, ignoring the opposing side to an argument ALWAYS strengthens your own argument... [is there still a rolleyes emoticon?]

What did Kelvin accomplish at OU?

Aside from keeping the athletic department's head above water until Stoops was hired? Aside from being the two-time NCAA Coach of the Year? Aside from having "less-skilled" players, and still having teams that played over their heads? Let's see...

Year 1. Loss to Manhattan in first round.

Shouldn't have happened, but after missing the dance in 1993, it was nice to put the shoes on again...

year 2. His team got abused by John Cheney (the team was baffled) in round 1

MANY teams got baffled by Temple's matchup zone under Cheney. The fact that we didn't have any (truly) capable ball handlers hurt us more than "coaching" did, though. But, that's easily overlooked by the detractors who just go to Wikipedia to get their game stats for lists...

year 3. A double digit loss to Stanford in the first round

How did Stanford do that season, anyway? Also, weren't they the higher-seeded team? (6 to 11.) Didn't they have two future NBA players on their roster? Just checking. I'm pretty sure that Brevin Knight and Mark Madsen played in the league. I'm also pretty sure that they had a shot at winning it all before they ran into Andre Miller and Utah. ...but what do I know?

year 4. A first round loss to Indiana

...'cause Bobby Knight never beat anybody in the tournament...

year 5. Hey, two wins in the tournament! bout damn time but you can't score 50 against the eventual national champion. Sampsons first good win in the tourney though against arizona.

Calling a win against Arizona in the tournament a "good win" is like calling a blocked shot "a good defensive play." But, it was our first Sweet 16. (The first of three that Kelvin made while at OU.)

year 6. 1 win in the tourney and a loss against Purdue.

This one hurt. No question. Sometimes they do. But, it was a Purdue team that beat a hot Gonzaga team in the following round before eventually falling to Wisconsin in the Elite Eight.

year 7. 1st round loss to Indiana State!

This one REALLY hurt. There's not a lot else to say.

year 8. Final four year(obviously the most talent KS team). Beat a good Arizona team by double digits as well. Good year but lost to a team they had no business losing to. Everyone in American had them penciled in to win the whole thing after making the final four.

Until we ran into an 8-5 situation in the Indiana game. If that game had been called consistently; good OR bad, we would have won it.

year 9. Elite 8(again the same guys on the floor) got absolutely embarrassed by Syracuse' zone. Its not that we lost but how we lost

Is it how everybody ELSE lost too? 'cause Syracuse won it all that year, right?

year 10. NIT, nuff said

Injuries and transfers. TOTALLY Kelvin's fault. The fact that, at one point, we were suiting up 6 scholarship players for games? TOTALLY Kelvin's fault...

year 11. Hey, lets lose to Utah in the second round.

Utah and Andrew Bogut, mind you. But, for more on 2004-2006, maybe you SHOULD read my (you say "long-winded," I say, for those not currently in the know, "informational") posts after all, even though they're crippling to your "Kelvin sucks" argument...

Year 12. First round loss to Milwaukee Wisconsin

The end of an era, literally. Losing this game was my signal that something was truly wrong; moreso than what the players were telling me, both on and off the court.

Sampson did at OU what any coach with a clue could do at OU. He averaged a little over 20 wins a season and made the NCAA. Any coach with Hollis, Quannis, Selvy, Ace and those guys would have made deep tourney runs.

Billy Tubbs, apparently the gold standard of Oklahoma basketball coaching, 'cause, even though his teams also underachieved, at least they scored points, [rolleyes] averaged 23 and change wins per season. And, if you're going to say that any coach with "x" player should make a deep run, but not give the same coach credit for bringing in and developing said player(s), that's just hypocritical...

Basically you are judged as a Coach by what you do in the Tourney.
2 good runs in the tourney in 12 years and several first round exists.

Most teams consider the Sweet 16 a "good run." I guess that you just hold the program to higher standards...

The argument will be made about how good his teams played on defense and how they dived for every lose ball and hustled and scraped and were physical.

I'm going to ignore, as I have been doing, your errors in spelling, context, etc.. and just say, "The argument SHOULD be made..." Players don't play defense like that anymore. They did for Kelvin.

Let me ask you this. If he was coaching another team would we view him the same way or would you say he coached dirty ball?

AS a coach, there is a fine line between physical and dirty. Just because the other team doesn't like it, doesn't make it dirty, and just because your team isn't as skilled offensively as the NBA All-Star team doesn't mean that all they do is foul.

I guess what I am trying to say is that once it gets tourney time you better be able to do more than play defense. You better know how to score and you better know how to coach. Many times the last two didnt' happen.

Which sucks, because I was counting on Kelvin to come out and shoot a good percentage. I was counting on him not to turn the ball over. I was... wait, what do you mean he wasn't playing the games?

A coach can only put his / her players in the position to make plays. If they're unable to make said plays, the coach can really only deflect so much of that blame. If you miss a layup, is it the fault of your coach? If you can't handle / pass the ball well enough to beat a trapping zone, or full-court man-to-man pressure, is it the fault of your coach? I guess it all depends on what you want from your coach. I don't want mine shooting or handling the ball. I want him coaching and handling players. THAT is something at which Kelvin more than excelled for most of his career at OU.

the_ouskull

badger
1/18/2009, 03:50 PM
I think KS is a good coach that caught up in the things that are wrong with major money college sports. KS did a great job being a mentor to young men as far as guiding them to success here and prepare them for life after college.

Then, the ugly side of major money college sports kicks in. Fans, administrators, recruits and opposing coaches alike point to the first/second round tourney losses and ask in a far-too-loud voice why OU under KS hasn't advanced to greater heights.

So, KS does what he can to shut them up and goes to desperate measures to shut them up that doesn't abide by the rules of the game.

Thus, the legacy of a good person and a good coach gets tarnished with his rule breaking.

His son, Kellen, seems on track to becoming a head coach someday too. Kellen looks a lot like daddy, but seems to have his mother's charm and temperament (i.e. you won't see Kellen throw his suit, red tie and other things in frustration). I'm sure KS has told his son to stay true to himself and not make the same mistakes he did when he let the ugly side of major money college sports influence his usually sound judgment.

That being said, OU dumped KS at the perfect time. We avoid NCAA's wrath and get a good rising star coach in the process. It's a great time to be a Sooner :)

stoopified
1/18/2009, 04:59 PM
Kelvin Sampson? Who dat? Do you perhaps mean Calvin Simpson? If so, he is THE SUCC.

bluedogok
1/18/2009, 05:07 PM
Yeah, Kellen is the one that I really felt sorry for in the immediate aftermath. He seems like a smart kid with a high basketball intellect as well. I have no doubt that he learned from his father's mistakes and hopefully will not do anything close to that because he unfortunately will be viewed by some for much of his coaching career (at least initially) based on his father's transgressions, which isn't fair.

Ton Loc
1/18/2009, 09:52 PM
...
Sampson did at OU what any coach with a clue could do at OU. He averaged a little over 20 wins a season and made the NCAA. Any coach with Hollis, Quannis, Selvy, Ace and those guys would have made deep tourney runs.

Basically you are judged as a Coach by what you do in the Tourney.
2 good runs in the tourney in 12 years and several first round exists.
....

Alright Alright nobody get mad but...

You could almost throw a certain football coach's name in where Sampson's is. Except for the National Championship part that is.

I really thought the skull was going to make this point.

No doubt, I found myself defending KS ALOT during his tenure. A lot of the times it was to retards and sometimes it was to people that actually knew basketball.

I never minded the sometimes lousy offense because I loved the defense and hustle. And all those losses in the tournament hurt just as much as all of the losses in the more recent bowl game losses. Made my "job" of supporting KS as OU's coach all the harder.

Then came the success. Final Four and Elite Eight. Of course our losses in those tourneys almost broke my soul. Really, we lost to IndiFREAKINana!!!!!

Then back to hard times with crappy offense and good defense. Then the phone calls. Really I have to agree, it was almost like he wanted to get caught. We give him a break and it turns out he kept doing it.

I washed my hands of defending the guy. He went to Indiana, I shrugged my shoulders in relief that it was over.

The guy WAS a good/great coach that a lot of people didn't like because of his style. They mixed up boring style with bad coach. Then he got caught cheating. And he was gone. The thing is though, the people that didn't like his style never really got what they wanted. Sure he was gone, but he didn't get fired. And he never got truly exposed as a BAD coach.

I'm glad he's gone and I love the people we have now, but he was never a terrible coach.

Doesn't matter much but that's my opinion. (and the longest post I've ever written)

the_ouskull
1/18/2009, 11:17 PM
(and the longest post I've ever written)

I should add that to my sig, too...

"the_ouskull really drags the best out of me. -- Ton Loc" :D

...well, I mean, it's a variation of it, right?

tommieharris91
1/19/2009, 01:34 AM
I should add that to my sig, too...

"the_ouskull really drags the best out of me. -- Ton Loc" :D

...well, I mean, it's a variation of it, right?

I'm guessing this post was from an imposter the_ouskull, because the real the_ouskull would have signed it the_ouskull. :P

Desert Sapper
1/19/2009, 02:39 AM
I liked Kelvin and think he was a great basketball coach, but I (like most Sooner fans) was extremely disappointed by some of the things he did both here and at IU. More than the OU roundball coach, he was a role model, and I think he really let some people down.

I'm happy that we were fortunate enough to get Capel, though. That really lessens a lot of the sting of Kelvin going out like he did.

fwsooner22
1/19/2009, 11:51 AM
Kelvin and Dave Bliss both became addicts. Addicts will do anything for the next fix. In this case the fix is winning. Both are great men with extreme talent but they crossed the line. Once you cross the line and get caught you are toast. It's a shame there's not a jail for coaches. Those two would be poster boys.

SoonerBBall
1/19/2009, 02:25 PM
Kelvin and Dave Bliss both became addicts. Addicts will do anything for the next fix. In this case the fix is winning. Both are great men with extreme talent but they crossed the line. Once you cross the line and get caught you are toast. It's a shame there's not a jail for coaches. Those two would be poster boys.

While I appreciate the point you are trying to make, comparing a man whose staff made an average of 2 extra phone calls a week over three years to one who asked his team to help cover up a murder and paint the victim in a horrible light is ludicrous.

John Kochtoston
1/19/2009, 02:35 PM
While I appreciate the point you are trying to make, comparing a man whose staff made an average of 2 extra phone calls a week over three years to one who asked his team to help cover up a murder and paint the victim in a horrible light is ludicrous.

This.

Sooner04
1/19/2009, 03:05 PM
Kelvin.

This one is near and dear to my heart. For those of you who love to gloat and smirk about Kelvin's departure and how it was time to go, I understand your sentiments. I was with you. I ran hot and cold with Kelvin for many, many years. That is evidenced by a topic (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65058) I started a few days before Kelvin bolted for Indiana. I remember sitting in my dorm room in a catatonic state shortly after blowing a big second-half lead to Indiana State in 2001. I also remember sitting in the Georgia Dome a year later at the Final Four.

That's how it always was with Kelvin. The incredible highs were followed by knee-to-the-scrotum lows. I remember rushing the floor against Kansas and O-State in '95. We didn't lose a game at home that year. Then we faced Manhattan. And got stomped.

Kelvin was a paranoid individual who loved his privacy and the cocoon that a successful football team provided his basketball team. He always loved keeping everyone at a distance. I'll go to my grave thinking that the Final Four was the best and worst thing to ever happen to Kelvin. On the one hand, he had reached the pinnacle, and he took the hottest and best team in the country to the brink of a national championship in 2002. Then Quannas shreds his ankle and everyone is forced to play out of position. Hollis can't make a shot and Ace is saddled with foul trouble. Indiana doesn't miss a trey in the second half. I sat there in Atlanta, my savings blown, sadder than any sports moment in my life other than the 1998 NFC Championship Game.

But with that success came expectation. All of a sudden, more and more people are paying attention to what's going on in the program. The Suttons, the absolute pillars of fair play (cough), start alerting the NCAA of things going on behind the scenes. The football team, as big a gorilla as it is, is not able to shield a top-10 basketball team.

Kelvin loved being the hunter, not the hunted. His style of play enabled us to hang with teams we didn't deserve to share the floor with. He took this (http://www.soonerstats.com/basketball/men/players/roster.cfm?seasonid=1997) team and almost beat the best college team I've seen in the last 20 years: the '97 Kansas Jayhawks. That muck-it-up style, though, enabled teams who didn't deserve to drain our bathwater to hang with us too (Indiana State, Utah, Purdue).

Once Kelvin became the hunted, he lost touch with what he'd surrounded himself with. He finally got the good players, but he couldn't relate to them. After his Final Four run in 2002, Kelvin signed 11 scholarship freshmen. He only coached one of them as an upper classmen: Kevin Bookout.

DeAngelo Alexander, Larry Turner, Brandon Foust, Drew Lavender, Lawrence McKenzie and Jimmy Tobias. All transferred after playing two years or less for Oklahoma.

The others (David Godbold, Longar Longar, Taylor Griffin and Austin Johnson) all made it through, but Kelvin was gone by the time these guys made it to their junior level.

That attrition, coupled by the stress of winning, forced Kelvin to work even harder and eventually led to his downfall. The recruiting class of Damion James, Scottie Reynolds and Jeremy Mayfield, when coupled with Tony Crocker and Keith Clark, was to be his finest as our head coach. As it stands, it damn near crippled a program that had been among the nation's finest since the early days of the Reagan Administration.

I'll tell you something: when the phone troubles emerged, Kelvin was on VERY thin ice. Things had stagnated, and feelings were hurt. You do not, under any circumstance, run afoul of the NCAA under the watch of Lord Boren. The Indiana job coming open was a win for all parties involved: Kelvin, Indiana, and the University of Oklahoma.

If Kelvin had stayed, we bring in a monster recruiting class but we lose more guys. No way Taylor Griffin comes back, and Longar's gone as well. No Blake Griffin either. How would it have turned out? 22-8, year after year, with some great wins and maddening losses. Heart, hustle and hardwood.

I want to take out angst on Kelvin, but I can't. I hated his offensive philosophies, and I hated his boorish, at times, behavior. I just can't let go of the fact that the guy was one hell of a basketball coach. He loved being the head coach at the University of Oklahoma. He embraced us, and we embraced him, even if he told us that Texas doesn't suck. Some people never got past that, but I did.

I just wish we could play that Indiana game over again.

Collier11
1/19/2009, 04:01 PM
It would have turned out with us getting in a boat load more trouble since Sir Calvin couldnt stay within his calling plan because he thought the rules didnt pertain to him

fwsooner22
1/19/2009, 04:05 PM
While I appreciate the point you are trying to make, comparing a man whose staff made an average of 2 extra phone calls a week over three years to one who asked his team to help cover up a murder and paint the victim in a horrible light is ludicrous.

You're right. You're point is so much better.

At what point did I compare the two men. Try not to read between the lines it's so much easier. Then you don't find the need to shoot the messenger.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Collier11
1/19/2009, 04:20 PM
If that, and my feelings regarding Kelvin Sampson puts me in the minority... well, so does my I.Q. I'll manage.

-----

If you read all of this, thanks for your time. If you didn't, keep on chanting your clever variation of "fire Kelvin Sampson," or "screw Kelvin Sampson" every time the opportunity for you to try to forget his legacy presents itself. It'll be easier for me to spot you that way.

the_ouskull

Ahh, the good ol If you disagree with me then I must be smarter than you argument. I typically like what you have to say and I have actually met you so I Know you are a good guy, but this is a little over the top and a little self appreciative.

He was a really good coach but never great(a great coach beats a lesser Indiana team), he was stubborn, but worst of all he made himself out to be honorable, hard working, and respectable and then he crapped all that down the drain by cheating, not once but repeatedly and then denying it to this day and making himself out to be a giant hipocrite.

I admire and respect him for what he did for the university and Im not trying to undermine what he did accomplish, and in all honesty the mistakes he made dont bother me as much as his defiance towards the rules and his role within those issues.

Ton Loc
1/19/2009, 04:25 PM
You're right. You're point is so much better.

At what point did I compare the two men. Try not to read between the lines it's so much easier. Then you don't find the need to shoot the messenger.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

When you put both of their names in the same sentence being addicts is when you compared them

Dude, you compared someone who broke NCAA rules to someone who broke the LAW covering up a MURDER. :confused:

fwsooner22
1/19/2009, 04:39 PM
When you put both of their names in the same sentence being addicts is when you compared them

Dude, you compared someone who broke NCAA rules to someone who broke the LAW covering up a MURDER. :confused:


I give up ! You two are stinking geniuses and I am a dumb a$$.

Sam Bradford and Howard Schnelly like to read.

Did I just compare them. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

OU has classes open in English and Literature. You're never too old to get an education. Wow.

Harry Beanbag
1/19/2009, 05:46 PM
Did I go through a time warp or something? Why are we still talking about Sampson?

oumartin
1/19/2009, 07:10 PM
What about Kelvins player development?

the_ouskull
1/19/2009, 07:25 PM
Some quick thoughts:

- According to the Webster's definition of "compare," you DID compare Bradford and the town drunk. However, you presented false information in making your comparison. Howard S. does not like to read.. unless it's the label on his next bottle; of either bourbon or Viagra, whichever, but it's a moot point, because you're wrong regardless...

Compare: (verb) ..to examine in order to note similarities and differences.


Kelvin and Dave Bliss both became addicts. Addicts will do anything for the next fix. In this case the fix is winning. Both are great men with extreme talent but they crossed the line. Once you cross the line and get caught you are toast. It's a shame there's not a jail for coaches. Those two would be poster boys.

You wrote seven sentences. I am going to remove the sentences in which neither of them, or only one of them, are mentioned.


Kelvin and Dave Bliss both became addicts. Both are great men with extreme talent but they crossed the line. Those two would be poster boys.

You mentioned their similarities, hence COMPARING them. Also, of your seven sentences, you grouped them together in 3 of them. Once by mentioning both of them individually. Twice by using pronouns in place of a direct mention of them. ("both," and "those two") Sounds like a comparison to me.

Thanks for your advice about that English class though. I'd take one if I weren't already teaching it. (At least I restrained myself from commenting on the fact that you used the contracted "you are" twice in one post, but only once correctly. I can see getting it right both times, or wrong both times, but one and one is kinda odd... It's like flipping a coin and calling "side" instead of heads or tails. Didn't that happen to the Steelers once? I guess Bettis was showing off that Notre Dame education...)

-----
Also, Collier, I wasn't making an argument when I said this:


If that, and my feelings regarding Kelvin Sampson puts me in the minority... well, so does my I.Q. I'll manage.

I'll paraphrase, though, for clarity...

"I recognize the fact that my opinions regarding Kelvin Sampson put me in the minority on this board. Given my I.Q. and regard for rubbing it in people's face, I've been in some sort of minority for most of my life. I've learned to deal with it."

So, you would be right to call me a c*cky pr*ck, because I am, but I promise that I wasn't throwing out a logical fallacy in the shape of an argument with those particular words. Besides, I'm just as likely to rattle off a few self-depreciating posts. When I'm an idiot, I'll usually be the first or second person to admit such... :D

-----

Nutsack: ('cause let's face it, you called yourself that, I'm just owning it for you) Unless your browser automatically directed you to this page and not the home page, you clicked on a link entitled "My Thoughts on Kelvin Sampson." Don't act surprised to find Kelvin Sampson comments and discussion on said thread. As for why, I guess, "Because it's a message board; a forum for open, and open topic, discussion, and I felt like talking about him," will have to suffice.

-----

04: Yep.

Also, if the Indiana game were played again with officials that weren't scared of physical defense, it'd be a different game. The entire tournament up to that point was called one way, and then it changed for one game. It just happened to be OUR game. I'm not crying "conspiracy" or anything, (although if you get a few in me, it's a different story) but injuries aside, we weren't allowed to play the same (tough, but completely legal within the rules) game against Indiana that we'd been allowed to play all year, and all tournament long, up to that point...

...and that's a bunch of horsepucky.

-----

On an officiating-related note, I almost got T'd up the other night for getting on an official about not calling a violation on one of my own players. I'm not exaggerating in the least when I say that, Saturday night, the referees working my games could not; were not mentally or physically capable of calling a travel. I counted 11 times in the film where they were in the position to make a call, and were facing the action, and they didn't call a travel on either a pre-shot resetting of a shooters feet, or on a two-foot shuffle before a drive. It cost us our girls game. During the boys game, we could have rolled out the aforementioned 1997 Sooner team and I'm not sure that it would have helped. BUT, at one point, one of our players drives to the basket hard, taking three very long, very loud steps. CLOMP. CLOMP. CLOMP.

Me: "1-2-3. That's a travel too!"
Ref: "What?"
Me: "I know it's my team, but I just want to see that you're able to call them."
Ref: Warning.

This is the same official that stopped the game at one point to yell at a fan in the stands who was being loud, but not over-the-top (by regular standards, not my own) and not vulgar. He threatened the fan, who wasn't wearing the colors of either team, with a technical. Classy.

Anyway, I heard that his "crew" is working our game tonight, so I need to get over there early and find a way to help him pull a hammy. You guys take care, now.

the_ouskull

Collier11
1/19/2009, 08:31 PM
fair enough

SoonerShark
1/19/2009, 10:46 PM
In 2002, we would have won it all except our point guard sprained his ankle. In 2003, Hollis Price was beaten up and was more of a decoy than the the player he had been for his four years in Norman.

the_ouskull
1/19/2009, 11:07 PM
Shark, I like where you're headed with that, but for a different reason. Remember, after the 2002 season, 2003 was supposed to be Hollis' "let's show the scouts what we've got here in Norman" season...

He responded. His 3pt% (+5.1) FT/game (+1.3) FT% (+9.1) all saw significant jumps, and his assist and scoring totals were up as well.

BUT, we lost our "running game." Without Ace in the post and Selvy as the energy guy, we had to rely on perimeter shooting a lot more in 2003, and the bulk of that fell to Hollis. He handled the pressure well, but he didn't have the gamers around him to allow him to really "get off" the way that he had the previous season. Consider this:

In 2003, Hollis and Ebi Ere were our only double-digit scorers. However, while I mentioned Hollis' percentages a minute ago, I failed to mention Ebi's. I wish that I could still fail to mention them. He stunk up the joint in 2003, seeing a 5% dip in his FG%, a 3% dip in his 3pt%, and an almost 9% dip in his FT%. (WHAT?) He also led the team in turnovers, despite rarely handling the ball, with Hollis and Quannas sharing that duty.

i.e. - Ebi was pushing it, playing for what he perceived to be draft status, instead of playing solid, team ball. The shot rates would back this up as well, as they're almost insignificant from 2002 to 2003. He was taking roughly as many shots... they just weren't good shots being taken at opportune times. Also, with two freshmen (Deangelo and Book) seeing significant minutes, and a mental freshman (Jabahri Brown) seeing them as well, our basketball IQ was dramatically lower than it was the previous year.

All of this resulted in Hollis having to play outside of his "comfort game" in order for us to win ball games. (NOTE: I'm about to compare Hollis to Michael Jordan. I'm being facetious.) If the Bulls had asked Jordan to guard Shaq in the post, he'd have done it, but it wouldn't have made them a better team, no? Hollis isn't a point guard. He's a really tiny 2. When he played (like a) point, it took him out of his game. But, with nobody else capable of handling the ball other than Quannas, who wasn't himself after an injury, he had to do it; gladly did it... We just weren't the same team.

But "decoy" might be the wrong word... (Or, if you read Palahniuk... It's not the right word, but it's the first one that comes to mind...)

the_ouskull

Ton Loc
1/20/2009, 09:14 AM
I give up ! You two are stinking geniuses and I am a dumb a$$.



Hey buddy, calm down. I wouldn't call you an overall dumbass, but on this topic you're going a little overboard.

Let's all stay on the same page here. Kelvin Sampson is gone and we're all glad. We're so glad we're talking about it three years later. ;)

the_ouskull
1/20/2009, 06:26 PM
I hate you. :D

---

I don't want anybody to get me wrong. I'm STOKED that we have Jeff Capel, and I wish I could be closer to Norman to feel more of a part of what must be an electric time for basketball fans right in Norman right now. None of that changes the fact that I was court side during Kelvin's first year. LNC = 15-0. Nobody gets a lifetime pass, for anything... Not even family... But for what happened here, compared to what he accomplished while he was here... He gets a pass, on that, from me.

I guess the best way I know to say it, even though it'll sound weird, is that I'm not glad that he's gone, but I'm much happier with what we have now. Does that make sense?

the_ouskull

NormanPride
1/21/2009, 11:44 AM
I loved Kelvin up to the loss to Indiana. After that he changed... He wasn't the same guy, really. Sometimes big losses change people. Stoops could have collapsed after tgowwdns but he hung in there and is doing spectacularly. Kelvin seemed to collapse under the pressure and his abrasive personality turned from an acceptable quirk to a major problem.

King Crimson
1/21/2009, 12:13 PM
I liked Kelvin and defended him (especially on the Cletus style of play angle) up to the infractions went public. Even then, i could pull for his IU teams (not saying a lot since the Big Ten puts me to sleep)...but after the second time, everything got a little tainted with him (being head of the coaches ethics committee and putting two schools on probation?). i still feel pretty good about his tenure at OU...lots of good memories and players. the Purdue and Indy State losses were pretty brutal.....Utah in a slightly minor category of soul-searing pain.

As skull pointed out, he made OU hoops pretty exciting when there wasn't a lot to get excited about at Owen Field. and that was something to me, living out of state especially.

i remember reading a great interview with Kelvin that followed him throughout his routine on the day of one of the OU-OSU games in the early 00's when both teams were ranked and the game meant a lot in the conference standings and Kelvin was INTO it...saying in the interview, as he was driving his truck outside of Norman somewhere listening to CCR, "this is what it's all about".

the Final Four year was fantastic; though, i will say even though we demolished Maryland in December (I was there, too)...i think we'd have needed to really bring it to beat those guys again. they were playing really well in March. in December at the LNC, Blake had a terrible night shooting and Wilcox was still out of control. Though, while Francis and Price were kind of a tossup....it would come down to Ace putting a body on Baxter again. i believe that Ace came into his own that game in December.

Kelvin also lived in an adjacent neighborhood to where my mom does....sort of down by the Trails south of highway 9...and my mom could care less about OU sports to be honest but Kelvin always waved to her and she liked that.

the_ouskull
1/21/2009, 04:49 PM
Good post, I get it.

By the way, how's life as a master of karate and friendship for everyone? :D

the_ouskull

Crimsontothecore
1/21/2009, 08:14 PM
I wrote this as a response to another thread, a quote from which I just listed, but wanted to post it as its own thread. This has been a long time coming. This is my Kelvin Sampson rant.

-----

Joe C. could have gotten rid of Kelvin when he got there in 1998, and nobody would have thought very much of it. Sure, Kelvin won National Coach of the Year (for the first of TWO times while he was at Oklahoma...) his first season, but he "did that with Billy's players," etc, etc... But what ELSE did he do?

1995: 1st Round NCAA upset loss to Manhattan.
1996: 1st Round NCAA beatdown at the hands of Temple.
1997: Healthy run in the conference tournament, losing to a hot Mizzou team in the finals. 1st Round NCAA loss to Stanford.
1998: Healthy run in the conference tournament, losing to a hot Kansas team in the finals. 1st Round NCAA loss to Indiana in a game that wasn't as close as the score indicated.

Tack onto all of that, the fact that he wasn't "Joe C's Guy," and yeah, getting rid of Sampson would have been really, really easy.

He didn't.

Joe C did what Joe C does. He recognized talent.

We were rewarded with a Sweet 16 trip in 1999, and then the beginning of the Hollis Price era at OU. We know how that went. Final Four. Elite Eight. Kelvin also picked up that 2nd Coach of the Year trophy that I mentioned earlier.

So what happened? My thoughts and honest opinion.

He was frustrated (remember that word, I'll be coming back to it) by the (behind-the-scenes) events of the end of the 2004 season, leading into 2005, and culminating with his "departure," in 2006. Namely, Lavender and Foust weren't exactly "Kelvin Guys," and the trouble that they got themselves into, both while at OU and afterwards, reflects that as well. So does the entire 2005 season, which ended with a PAINFUL 2nd Round loss to Utah. (And before any numbn*ts says, "coaching," Kelvin was, and is, PROVEN as a coach of the game of basketball. Lay the blame where it's due.)

How does a team that could roll a lineup of:

1 - Drew Lavender
2 - Lawrence McKenzie
3 - Nate Carter
4 - Kevin Bookout
5 - Taj Grey

Bench: Johnnie Gilbert, Brandon Foust, Terrell Everett, and a young David Godbold, and even Longar Longar, for all of those of you who inexplicably loved him.

...end up losing to Andrew Bogut-led Utah?

That team had no cohesiveness whatsoever. If you want to put THAT on Sampson, feel free, because it does fall under the duties of the job title "Coach" to a degree... But, he was tired of it; sick and tired of it, and at the end of the 2005 season, he thought it would end... but it didn't. Look at the major differences between the 2005 team and the 2006 team.

- No Drew, no Foust. They left. They weren't Kelvin guys to start with. We REALLY needed Drew that next season, but not if he was going to spend the majority of the season being "I don't give a sh*t" Drew instead of "Buzzer Beater at K-State" Drew. Where this really hurt us was, coupled with the loss of Deangelo Alexander the previous year, also a tough year, Kelvin was starting to wonder if he wasn't going about things the wrong way. For anybody who is asked to be a leader of young people, this is a common question; but it can also be a question that can debilitate your thought process if you allow it to.
- No glue. We lost Gilbert. He (more-or-less single-handedly) held together than 2005 team. With his loss, the 2006 team suffered from a lack of toughness and featured two guys who thought that they were auditioning for the NBA (Everett and Gray) and possibly the most skilled of them all, and the hardest worker on the team, frustrated to death by the entire situation, and concentrating on other arenas again. (Bookout)
- The closest thing that we had to a true point guard was Austin Johnson, a true freshman who played the 2 in high school. Then we had Everett. He had the best handle of anybody on the team. Sadly, he also felt like he had to show that at every available opportunity. Our two best players were post players, and we had Terrell "Maybe the Bobcats Will Love Me" Everett jacking up shots to the tune of a 5.1 percent drop in his overall FG%, and a 5.8% drop in his 3pt%. (He also shot 2, and 1.5 more shots per game in those categories, respectively.) In addition, he averaged a full 1.3 TO's per game more, despite playing in all of the games from the year before, and starting in all but one. He wasn't "learning the game" at that point. What he was doing was trying to show that he was a "balla."

So, between the losses of personnel, and the losses on the court, and also, Kelvin's personal losses off of the court, which should NEVER be discounted, things weren't terribly easy for Kelvin during the era ending in the 2006 season. Back-to-back years of Hell. How many of you have gone through that at a job? Did you start questioning yourself? Did you start wondering what you needed to do differently to make things work again; to make them "right" again?

Kelvin knew. He needed to WIN. And, in order to win at the college level, you need excellent coaching (check) and skilled players (not so fast there, check mark guy...) teaching and learning in state-of-the-art facilities.

But, in his (I'm back to that word from the beginning now... this is what's known as closure; or, coming full circle, if you prefer that particular idiom...) frustration, he forgot about WHO he was, and what had gotten him to where he was.

- And he cheated. There. I said it. He knew the rules and he didn't follow them. It led to his departure from OU for Indiana. It led to his termination from Indiana. But, honestly, that's not the guy that we hired, and that's not the guy that I remember from all of the dealings that I had with him. To me, he's still the all-time winningest coach in OU history, and the coach with the best record in the conference tournament too.

...and I feel like he deserves a little more respect than he tends to get for what he accomplished while he was here at OU. A lot of you that weren't fans until Stoops got hired as the football coach may not remember the John Blake years, but I do. I also remember still giving a sh*t about OU athletics, 1) because that's what I do, but 2) because of Kelvin Sampson, and the way he coached and his teams played. He came to a football school, and, at least for a few years, turned it into a basketball school, with a little help from a head coach who thought that changing not only trigger men, but entire guns, during a game would be a good idea.

If that, and my feelings regarding Kelvin Sampson puts me in the minority... well, so does my I.Q. I'll manage.

-----

If you read all of this, thanks for your time. If you didn't, keep on chanting your clever variation of "fire Kelvin Sampson," or "screw Kelvin Sampson" every time the opportunity for you to try to forget his legacy presents itself. It'll be easier for me to spot you that way.

the_ouskull
So here was a coach with countless problems and rogue players trying to be successful at a football school? Fine. What about Indiana? was he just a victim of unfortunate circumstances there too? Was it really so hard to get players at IU that he had to resort to the same exact cheating that got him in trouble at OU?

Please, enough of the "Kelvin the victim"

the_ouskull
1/22/2009, 10:04 PM
Which is exactly what I'm NOT doing. (Talk about reading to your agenda...) I'm simply trying to understand things. This thread has been cathartic. Welcome to it.

the_ouskull

oumartin
1/22/2009, 11:09 PM
Kelvin sucks

the_ouskull
1/24/2009, 02:01 AM
Well, with such an eloquent, well-thought-out analysis of your obviously unbiased and educated opinion regarding the topic at hand, I congratulate you on typing some big boy words on your magic internet box, and can only vehemently encourage you to go f*ck yourself.

____ sucks is quite the aggie argument you have there, Martin. Care to state your position with a little less orange tint to it? I'd looooooooove to hear what you have to say outside of the plebian responses to which I've been treated to date.

Hollah, as they say...

the_ouskull