My New Years Wish...

[Okla-homey]

is that the IDF crushes those camel focking clockdusters along with their katyusha and qassam rockets. You gotta love the arab mind. They have the nerve to b1tch now even though they have no problem launching mortars and rockets into southern Israel.

Go IDF! Burn those bastages, and the goats they rode in on.

[Curly Bill]

Agreed...

...now to go drop a few on Iran while they're limbered up.

[SteelCitySooner]

What amazes me is that Hamas can bomb Isreal all day, with the vast majority of killing innocent civilians, and you don't hear jack about it. Israel makes some strategic hits, and all you see in the press is the wounded 'women and children'; meanwhile, Israel has killed relatively a very low number of civilians. Their attacks have been very successful at getting the bad guys...yet they are getting no credit in the press.

[VeeJay]

Israel has practiced amazing restraint in allowing these tinhorn rockets to be fired into its southern cities without retaliation. They have every right to destroy Hamas. Maybe Achmed in Teheran will now STFU.

[Okla-homey]

Whats even more irritating is the Saudis could easily have afforded to set the Philistines up thirty years ago with their own cantonment in Saudi Arabia complete with milk and honey, but instead, they prefer to have them "oppressed" and zippered-up so your garden variety jihaadist has an enemy to occupy their murderous minds that isn't a member of the fabulously wealthy House of Saud.

Dang 'em.:mad:

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4306/idfsoldierdavens742921ec8.jpg
Shoot straight you magnificent bastage!

[King Crimson]

as long as there's a good guy and a bad guy, it's all history.

[pott_2]

I hope they end this crap soon(not likely). It is f'ing up my commute to work and the Yems are protesting at OUr embassy.

[swardboy]

"Yems"....heh

[JohnnyMack]

Arabs hate the Jews, Jews hate the Arabs. More news at 11.

[soonerscuba]

Despite what you believe in justification, and I certainly tend to favor Israel, but do we really have to pretend that Israel doesn't kill vastly more civilians than the Palestinians kill Israeli civilians?

The Stats (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776b7af85256d08006f3ae9/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument)

The American evangelical movement and government has done quite a job whitewashing the "restraint" of the IDF. I think this whole issue was settled on the field in '67 and thus I believe in Israel's right to defend herself, I just won't pretend that the Israeli gov't is pure as the driven snow.

[Vaevictis]

The reality is that both sides kill plenty of civilians, and both sides only exercise restraint to the extent that it is beneficial to do so in terms of what kind of press they can get/avoid.

[Vaevictis]

Other reality: You just wish our government had a strategy that was half as effective as the one the Saudi's have (wrt directing jihadists against Israel)

[OklahomaTuba]

Despite what you believe in justification, and I certainly tend to favor Israel, but do we really have to pretend that Israel doesn't kill vastly more civilians than the Palestinians kill Israeli civilians?


Israel kills in defense, unlike these terrorist groups.

If Hamas and Hezbollah would quit fighting, so would Israel.

If Israel quit fighting, would Hamas and Hezbollah? I think we all know the answer to that.

If the so called Palestinians (A made up race BTW) are killed, its their own fault, as they brought this all on themselves.

[JohnnyMack]

Once again organized religion doing a great job of reminding me why I don't bother with any of their bull****.

[Vaevictis]

Israel kills in defense, unlike these terrorist groups.

If Hamas and Hezbollah would quit fighting, so would Israel.

That's because Israel already has what it wants. If Israel hadn't been chartered by the UN, you'd very likely still see Zionist terrorism in the region agitating for a Jewish homeland.

[soonerscuba]

Once again organized religion doing a great job of reminding me why I don't bother with any of their bull****.This is about right. The primary reason people in the US give a crap about Israel is so that our government can facilitate the rapture... it's as kooky as it is bizarre. I don't care what Israel does to further it's interests, I just have a hard time reconciling bulldozing blocks of private residences as "defense".

[Vaevictis]

I mean, seriously. It was Jews that brought terrorism to the Middle East, and Israel installed these same people into positions of power throughout their government. The only reason they're not still in power is that they're all dead from violence or old age.

If you think Israel is innocent in all this, bluntly, you don't know what the **** you're talking about. They're reaping what they've sown.

[Vaevictis]

Case in point regarding Israel having its own nutjobs:

You realize that one of Israel's former PM Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a right-wing Jew over his involvement the Oslo Peace Accords, right?

They're all a bunch of ****ing whack jobs over there.

[Vaevictis]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Shirhashalom.jpg

Lyrics of Shir LaShalom (Song for Peace), stained with Yitzhak Rabin's blood.

[soonerscuba]

If the so called Palestinians (A made up race BTW)I would like to hear this one explained.

[picasso]

This is about right. The primary reason people in the US give a crap about Israel is so that our government can facilitate the rapture... it's as kooky as it is bizarre. I don't care what Israel does to further it's interests, I just have a hard time reconciling bulldozing blocks of private residences as "defense".

wow, it could also be that they happen to be our ally.

[Vaevictis]

Israel would throw us to the wolves if it was more convenient to do so.

[Vaevictis]

Basically, IMO, the national character of Israel is that they are nobody's friend. Their charter is to provide a place for Jews to return to. They will do anything at all in the interest of that charter.

I seriously don't think they'd bat an eye at the notion of throwing us under the bus if they thought it would further the cause.

The only reason we're "allies" is because our support currently furthers the cause.

[OklahomaTuba]

If Israel hadn't been chartered by the UN, you'd very likely still see Zionist terrorism in the region agitating for a Jewish homeland.

Zionist terrorism.

Classic!

[OklahomaTuba]

I would like to hear this one explained.

Try taking a history class sometime.

[soonerscuba]

wow, it could also be that they happen to be our ally.I understand the sentiment, but a third of our foreign aid budget goes to Israel (2.4b/year), roughly another billion through charitable organizations set up as a front for the Israeli government, essentially deductible payments to a foreign government (the only one on earth, btw) and another $500m in bonds qualifies them as slightly more than an ally. That sort of funding doesn't happen because they're nice, it happens because of a perceived personal gain, most likely in the form of a ticket to heaven.

[soonerscuba]

Try taking a history class sometime.No, why don't you go and explain it for me, keep in mind I was taught history by evil liberals and never heard "the Palestinians are made up" case before.

[OklahomaTuba]

No, why don't you go and explain it for me, keep in mind I was taught history by evil liberals and never heard "the Palestinians are made up" case before.

Did those same evil liberals also teach you that Oklahomans are a race as well???

Same difference.

[OklahomaTuba]

Israel would throw us to the wolves if it was more convenient to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vOJCQr1Now

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I understand the sentiment, but a third of our foreign aid budget goes to Israel (2.4b/year), roughly another billion through charitable organizations set up as a front for the Israeli government, essentially deductible payments to a foreign government (the only one on earth, btw) and another $500m in bonds qualifies them as slightly more than an ally. That sort of funding doesn't happen because they're nice, it happens because of a perceived personal gain, most likely in the form of a ticket to heaven.

So we support Israel with foreign aid, military hardware, et cetera...

Because we want to go to heaven? Am I understanding that right?

Not because of a consistently western-friendly presence in the Middle East? Not because of the strategic interest of having a beachhead in the Middle East that doesn't rely on north Africa, the Turks, or eastern Europe? Not because of the strategic value of having a deep water port that close to the Suez that's friendly to NATO and western interests but not influenced or outright controlled by the former Eastern Bloc nations? Not because of the quick access to the Indian Ocean it provides by having a solid military presence to keep Egypt in check and playing ball, thereby limiting the influence one nation can exert on shipping and strategic access?

All because we want to go to heaven?

You're not that retarded. C'mon.

[soonerscuba]

So we support Israel with foreign aid, military hardware, et cetera...

Because we want to go to heaven? Am I understanding that right?

Not because of a consistently western-friendly presence in the Middle East? Not because of the strategic interest of having a beachhead in the Middle East that doesn't rely on north Africa, the Turks, or eastern Europe? Not because of the strategic value of having a deep water port that close to the Suez that's friendly to NATO and western interests but not influenced or outright controlled by the former Eastern Bloc nations? Not because of the quick access to the Indian Ocean it provides by having a solid military presence to keep Egypt in check and playing ball, thereby limiting the influence one nation can exert on shipping and strategic access?

All because we want to go to heaven?

You're not that retarded. C'mon.Some of those reasons are legit, not to the tune of a third of the foreign aid budget, though. I have stated before in this thread that I support Israel, I even don't have a problem with military aid, but deep water ports for useless trading and beachheads we have yet to use despite multiple forays into the Mid-east do not explain the obsession that many in this country have in seeing Israel prevail over Palestinian forces. The evangelical movement's desire to influence foreign policy, specifically Israel, is well documented, and it's my personal belief judging on my relationships and the limited amount of data available that the reason for this obsession is facilitating the rapture. This isn't the only reason, some think the Jews should have a homeland (I agree), they just don't like Arabs, or they believe in the concept of an ally in the region. What bothers me is that we give roughly $15,000/person/year to a nation that is in the top 20 in the world in regards to personal wealth.

If you wanted to get into strategic importance, there are any number of countries in the region that would better serve the interests (at least superficially) of the US. This isn't to say we should fork over billions to the UAE, Oman or Kuwait every year, but I feel the strategic importance of Israel is vastly over stated by members of the American gov't from both parties. Part of this is that the evangelicals have framed the debate around "Anti-Israel, Anti-Semitic" which provides yet another layer to the reason by which we give a staggering amount of money to another government. Also, the $2.5b doesn't include loans we made and allowed them to default.

[Sooner04]

Why was Palestine wiped from the map?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It had poo on it.

[Okla-homey]

Avoiding apocolyptic prophecies altogether, critics of Israel and Israeli policy may say what they may. Two facts remain; 1) Israel has been the US's most steadfast ally in that troubled region since its establishment, and; 2) during Gulf War I, when a desperate Saddam was lobbing Scuds at Israel like a drunk Sooner fan tossing oranges, Israel displayed incredible reserve in staying her hand from retaliation in order to prevent the coalition's fracture and the inevitable American loss of life that would have followed.

Is Israel perfect? No. Does Israel overreach occasionally? Sure. But being surrounded by millions of people who have repeatedly demonstrated they are bent on Israel's utter destruction tends to make a state a mite skittish. The world failed the Jewish people once. We should try mightily to avoid doing so again. If that fuels hatred for the US among Israel's enemies, then so be it. They aren't going to embrace us even of we withdrew our recognition of her statehood and right to exist.

[King Crimson]

"her hand", "her statehood", hilarious.

so poetic and touching. Palestine is "made up" nation...there's no such thing as Palestinians. i've read it on this board 100 times. but Israel isn't a "made up" nation.

if the "Palestinians"/"Terrorists bombed a 5 floor women's hospital like the IDF did, the moral outrage at "the terrorists" would be through the roof.

but, if you have tanks and body armour the "official" violence and killing is legitimate and thrilling.

rah rah rah.

[JohnnyMack]

Wait. Palestine is made up, but religions aren't? I so confused.

[OklahomaTuba]

but Israel isn't a "made up" nation.

If you ignore thousands of years of human history, you may actually be right for once!

:texan:

[Okla-homey]

"her hand", "her statehood", hilarious.

so poetic and touching. Palestine is "made up" nation...there's no such thing as Palestinians. i've read it on this board 100 times. but Israel isn't a "made up" nation.

if the "Palestinians"/"Terrorists bombed a 5 floor women's hospital like the IDF did, the moral outrage at "the terrorists" would be through the roof.

but, if you have tanks and body armour the "official" violence and killing is legitimate and thrilling.

rah rah rah.

Someday, if you ever decide to take a break from nursing whatever grudge you bear for traditional institutions, you might just be able to see the forest for the trees and understand that in the final analysis, there is right and wrong. In this particular instance, Israel is on the side of right. Or are you suggesting her forces would be actively striking targets in Gaza without the provocation of Hamas missiles?

[Vaevictis]

The world failed the Jewish people once. We should try mightily to avoid doing so again.

Come on now. The world has failed all kinds of people. Jews. Native Americans. Protestants. Catholics. Africans. Chinese. Koreans. Australian Aborigines.

While I would like to see us do better by people, let's not pretend that in terms of national policy, not failing the Jews as a motivation is at best disingenuous hypocrisy, and at worst just plain dumb**** policy.

I don't see us repatriating Native Americans to their homelands and restoring their full and complete sovereignty there, for example.

[Vaevictis]

That said, there are good reasons for supporting Israel. But "not failing the Jews" is really kind of silly.

[Vaevictis]

Zionist terrorism.

Classic!

Heh, classic? You do realize that there were, in fact, Zionist terrorist groups agitating for the formation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel?

You know, ones that blew up buildings, killed civilians, the whole shebang.

Zionist terrorism is a real term, and it's only ignorant fools who think it's just a poster in a Hamas-led protest.

I mean, seriously, do you think the Palestinians just came up with this strategy by accident? The Zionist terrorist groups were active in Palestine, blew up buildings and killed innocent people, and most importantly, got what they ****ing wanted. Is it surprising that the Palestinians might turn to the same tactic?

[Scott D]

US support of Israel is tied to two things, the massive PAC of Nationalists with direct ties to Israel and the fact that the **** will hit the fan when Israel finally does the expected of that Pit Bull on the leash that you are apprehensive about trusting and bite the US's hand off.

It's quite similar really in how normalized relations with Cuba have continuously been blocked by a powerful PAC based in South Florida because their egos took a hit from Castro taking all their ****.

[Okla-homey]

US support of Israel is tied to two things, the massive PAC of Nationalists with direct ties to Israel and the fact that the **** will hit the fan when Israel finally does the expected of that Pit Bull on the leash that you are apprehensive about trusting and bite the US's hand off.

It's quite similar really in how normalized relations with Cuba have continuously been blocked by a powerful PAC based in South Florida because their egos took a hit from Castro taking all their ****.

well, there's that, and the fact Israel is a nuclear power in a region critical to US national interests. The last thing we need is either; 1) Israel popping nukes because it beleives it is about to be overrun, or; 2) even if Israel doesn't use its nukes, but is overrun, said nukes falling into the hands of Israel's conquerors.

[Okla-homey]

That said, there are good reasons for supporting Israel. But "not failing the Jews" is really kind of silly.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

[OklahomaRed]

Arabs hate the Jews, Jews hate the Arabs. More news at 11.

Arabs hate America, Jews like America. More news at 10. :D

[StoopTroup]

Those of you that aren't religious amaze me when it comes to the Gaza Strip. Simply review the history books for this region. I think you'll quickly see just how stupid all of this is....especially from the Muslim side of things. The Israelis and the Palestinians have both wanted a place they can call Home. The Israelis have tried to keep what was given. The Palestinians have even been given the opportunity to create their own Country just as the Jews have. Yet they continue to want what they can't have. The Jews have been protecting themselves from attack. It has all turned into hate all over our World.

You can continue to ignore it or think it stupid....but if you'll take a moment to realize that we no longer have the World Trade Center to be proud of...the Israelis no longer have the Gaza Strip to be proud of either.

See it how you want...but I'm with Homey.

Freaking time to call in the exterminators and fog the area to get rid of all the cockroaches.

[TUSooner]

I would like to hear this one explained.

I think he me meant "made up nationality" - I think Palestine never existed as any sort of political entity until he Brits gave that name to the area post-WWI.

The obsessive hatred produced and nourished by these Arabs who can't get over 1948 is dragging the world into the ****-hole. Arab & "Palestinian" apologists make me wanna puke. They could have chosen coexistence, cooperation and prosperity for the Arab residents of palestine decades ago, but instead they have consistently taken the path of hate and resentment, manifested and glorified by violence against innocent people throughout the world. Hamas and that ilk are the root of more war, death, murder, and destruction that any other politcal or ethnic group in existence. How long are these ****s going to be legitimized by wooly-brained clowns in the west and connivers like China and Russia?!?
I'm with Homey: I hope the IDF kicks *** x 1,000,000,000,000,000.

[Vaevictis]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Fair enough. I just don't see why the Jews deserve special attention in this regard, when we're happy to turn a blind eye to other folks getting similar treatment.

I don't see anyone here calling for the US to carve a sovereign nation out of Georgia and the Carolinas so we can give the Cherokee back their ancestral homeland.

[soonerscuba]

I think he me meant "made up nationality" - I think Palestine never existed as any sort of political entity until he Brits gave that name to the area post-WWI.

The obsessive hatred produced and nourished by these Arabs who can't get over 1948 is dragging the world into the ****-hole. Arab & "Palestinian" apologists make me wanna puke. They could have chosen coexistence, cooperation and prosperity for the Arab residents of palestine decades ago, but instead they have consistently taken the path of hate and resentment, manifested and glorified by violence against innocent people throughout the world. Hamas and that ilk are the root of more war, death, murder, and destruction that any other politcal or ethnic group in existence. How long are these ****s going to be legitimized by wooly-brained clowns in the west and connivers like China and Russia?!?
I'm with Homey: I hope the IDF kicks *** x 1,000,000,000,000,000.I understand the sentiment, I just can't get behind a British naming metric as justification. The area was given the Latin name Palestine by Hadrian in the 2nd century. I also think that the concept of race might be the very worst way form a border, there is a Christian minority in Palestine that I feel should also get recognition, both by Israel and Palestine.

I'm not a Palestinian apologist, but I think that the Likud's attempt to radicalize Israeli factions and subvert Hamas is the reason for the current violence. What I do know is that I would absolutely be a Palestinian apologist if they went the Ghandi/MLK route, put down the rockets, step in front of a bulldozer and call CNN. They certainly are their own worst enemy in this regard.

[Scott D]

Those of you that aren't religious amaze me when it comes to the Gaza Strip. Simply review the history books for this region. I think you'll quickly see just how stupid all of this is....especially from the Muslim side of things. The Israelis and the Palestinians have both wanted a place they can call Home. The Israelis have tried to keep what was given. The Palestinians have even been given the opportunity to create their own Country just as the Jews have. Yet they continue to want what they can't have. The Jews have been protecting themselves from attack. It has all turned into hate all over our World.

You can continue to ignore it or think it stupid....but if you'll take a moment to realize that we no longer have the World Trade Center to be proud of...the Israelis no longer have the Gaza Strip to be proud of either.

See it how you want...but I'm with Homey.

Freaking time to call in the exterminators and fog the area to get rid of all the cockroaches.

Both sides feel that Jerusalem should be their capital. Jerusalem has been the focal point in religious wars for nearly 1000 years.

[StoopTroup]

Both sides feel that Jerusalem should be their capital. Jerusalem has been the focal point in religious wars for nearly 1000 years.
Yep.

Only one side is going to get it now. I could care less what the Palestinians think anymore.

[Okla-homey]

What I do know is that I would absolutely be a Palestinian apologist if they went the Ghandi/MLK route, put down the rockets, step in front of a bulldozer and call CNN. They certainly are their own worst enemy in this regard.

On that, we completely agree. Unfortunately, Islam does not lend itself particularly well to stoic indifference to suffering in order to accomplish a goal as Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity do.

[Okla-homey]

Both sides feel that Jerusalem should be their capital. Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for over 5000 years.

fixed it for you.;)\


This just in from our Hamas friends, by way of the Jerusalem Post:


Column One: The 'realist' fantasy
By CAROLINE GLICK

JERUSALEM - Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.

While Hamas joyously renewed its jihad against Jews and Christians, its overlords in Iran also basked in jihadist triumphalism. The source of Teheran's sense of ascendancy this week was Britain's Channel 4 network's decision to request that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad give a special Christmas Day address to the British people. Ahmadinejad's speech was supposed to be a response to Queen Elizabeth II's traditional Christmas Day address to her subjects. That is, Channel 4 presented his message as a reasonable counterpoint to the Christmas greetings of the head of the Church of England...

to read the entire piece, go here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111707087&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

They need to be annihilated like the two-legged vermin they are. They have forfeited their "human being" card. May Jehova in His mighty and irresistable wrath rain death on this offal and eliminate any trace of the scourge they represent.

[StoopTroup]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/semicharmedchck/church_lady_1.jpg

[SoonerProphet]

Yes, the JP is an excellent source of unbiased opinion in The Levant. Truth be told, Hamas has not been able to impose Sharia lay on the overpopulated prison that is Gaza. The continued arguments that support Israel based on the Holocaust strike me as hypocritical to say the least.

TU,

The obsessive hatred produced and nourished by these Arabs who can't get over 1948 is dragging the world into the ****-hole. Arab & "Palestinian" apologists make me wanna puke. They could have chosen coexistence, cooperation and prosperity for the Arab residents of palestine decades ago, but instead they have consistently taken the path of hate and resentment, manifested and glorified by violence against innocent people throughout the world. Hamas and that ilk are the root of more war, death, murder, and destruction that any other politcal or ethnic group in existence. How long are these ****s going to be legitimized by wooly-brained clowns in the west and connivers like China and Russia?!?
I'm with Homey: I hope the IDF kicks *** x 1,000,000,000,000,000.

While I may or may not be considered a Palestinian apologist, whatever that may mean, I feel they have a legitimate beef. I am sure you are aware of historic events prior to 48. The practices of the Irgun, the Stern Gang, and Ben-Gurion himself could only fall under the rubric of terrorism in any Western environ. I am sure you are aware of the fact that the Arab world has offered a comprehensive recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for it retreating to its 1967 borders. Coexistence and cooperation could have been built decades ago, but actors on both sides have chosen violence and ethnic hatred to advance their goals. It is not as simple as picking sides, good and evil, and any eschatology...it is just is what it is.

[Okla-homey]

If you live next door to patch of woods you inherited and that woods is filled with ravenous wolves, you have two options; 1) Shoot them, or; 2) build a fence around the woods. Israel has generally tried the latter option and look where it's gotten them.

[SoonerProphet]

mmm, untermenschen, just shoot them. Never again indeed.

[Curly Bill]

Those of you that aren't religious amaze me when it comes to the Gaza Strip. Simply review the history books for this region. I think you'll quickly see just how stupid all of this is....especially from the Muslim side of things. The Israelis and the Palestinians have both wanted a place they can call Home. The Israelis have tried to keep what was given. The Palestinians have even been given the opportunity to create their own Country just as the Jews have. Yet they continue to want what they can't have. The Jews have been protecting themselves from attack. It has all turned into hate all over our World.

You can continue to ignore it or think it stupid....but if you'll take a moment to realize that we no longer have the World Trade Center to be proud of...the Israelis no longer have the Gaza Strip to be proud of either.

See it how you want...but I'm with Homey.

Freaking time to call in the exterminators and fog the area to get rid of all the cockroaches.

Count me in as well....and count me a little surprised we have peeps on here that come across as anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. WTF kinda drugs are you guys on?

[StoopTroup]

The undoing of the American Homeland for the American Indian makes about as much sense as undoing areas for the Aztecs.

The real idea of all of this is that many of us have learned to live amongst each other and be respectful of each other. As humans we fail miserably most days. What's going on in the Middle East won't make it any easier to get along when you proclaim "Death to all"....especially when they proclaim death to people of their own beliefs and argue who is right.

Our Earth has gotten smaller decade by decade...

The truth is...it probably won't end well.

Seems I read something about all of this somewhere. :rolleyes:

[Okla-homey]

mmm, untermenschen, just shoot them. Never again indeed.

The so-called Palestinians who refuse to even try to live peacefully with their neighbors have signed their own death warrants. They have earned their eradication on the day it finally arrives. If, OTOH, they are capable of living within Israeli territory without blowing stuff up, then they should be allowed to live. Its really quite simple.

Untermenschen? Surely you aren't advancing the notion that what the Nazis did to European Jewry is analagous to the plight of Arabs in Israeli territory? Europe's Jews did not perpetrate systematic violence against Hitler's Germany. Instead, they were gassed and burned because of their DNA. Apples and oranges.

[Jerk]

The American evangelical movement...

Interesting.

I'm sure whatever cause that the 'American evangelical movement' takes will be opposed by liberals. And American Jews still vote 70% democrat.

Personally, I'm through with being a sucker.

Yeah, I support Israel, but I'm no longer a "do all we can for them" kind of guy. It took me awhile, and I finally figured out that the Hebrews only care about one thing and that is numero uno.

[StoopTroup]

It's pretty much been that way for quite awhile Jerk. I mean...they had Jesus Crucified.

[Jerk]

It's pretty much been that way for quite awhile Jerk. I mean...they had Jesus Crucified.

I don't care about any religious arguments. I'm just calling it like I see it. Didn't the Israelis sell some of our technology to China a few years back? With friends like them, who needs enemies?

[Vaevictis]

Yeah, I support Israel, but I'm no longer a "do all we can for them" kind of guy. It took me awhile, and I finally figured out that the Hebrews only care about one thing and that is numero uno.

Bingo, which is basically where I'm coming from. Israel is not our friend. They are our ally. There is a difference.

------------------------------------------------

Look, I'm not really pro-Palestinian. I'm anti-turn-a-blind-eye-to-Israel's-role-in-this-cluster****.

Let me explain it to you this way: Israel supports terrorism when it advances their goals. It's that simple.

In 1980, the Israeli military instituted the Lehi Ribbon to honor the pre-Israel Zionist group of the same name. Lehi is also known as "The Stern Gang."

The Stern Gang embraced terrorism. They assassinated civilian government officials (Lord Moyne). They bombed a train with civilian passengers. They were participants in the Dier Yassin Massacre, in which a village was attacked and approximately 100 people were killed, a good component of which were civilian.

And the Israeli military has honored members of this group with an official decoration.

Seriously. Can you imagine the outrage here if the Iraqi military created an "Al Qaeda" ribbon?

It's just ****ing obscene to act like Israel is the only aggrieved party here.

[TUSooner]

Yes, the JP is an excellent source of unbiased opinion in The Levant. Truth be told, Hamas has not been able to impose Sharia lay on the overpopulated prison that is Gaza. The continued arguments that support Israel based on the Holocaust strike me as hypocritical to say the least.

TU,


While I may or may not be considered a Palestinian apologist, whatever that may mean, I feel they have a legitimate beef. I am sure you are aware of historic events prior to 48. The practices of the Irgun, the Stern Gang, and Ben-Gurion himself could only fall under the rubric of terrorism in any Western environ. I am sure you are aware of the fact that the Arab world has offered a comprehensive recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for it retreating to its 1967 borders. Coexistence and cooperation could have been built decades ago, but actors on both sides have chosen violence and ethnic hatred to advance their goals. It is not as simple as picking sides, good and evil, and any eschatology...it is just is what it is.
I hear you, but... even all that radical Zionism doe not change the fact that the Arabs' own worst enemy is their all-consuming hatred. They care more about hating Israel and its friends than they do about caring for their own children. They want the hatred to continue and grow, no matter what it costs anyone. It's beyond rational and beyond excusable.

I wonder if it would help if we simultaneously nuked Jerusalem and Mecca?

[Vaevictis]

I wonder if it would help if we simultaneously nuked Jerusalem and Mecca?

Depends on what you mean by "help." They'd stop fighting each other for as long as they were busy fighting us. Then they'd get right back to it.

[WILBURJIM]

Back to "the Palestinians are a made up people" idea.

A quote from a member of a PLO faction in 1977:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."


Combine this with the fact that Arabs in the locales under the Mandate for Palestine(established to create a Jewish homeland) never referred to themselves as "Palestinians" until after the 6 Day War, then one might be justified to call "Palestinians" a made up people.

[StoopTroup]

I don't care about any religious arguments. I'm just calling it like I see it. Didn't the Israelis sell some of our technology to China a few years back? With friends like them, who needs enemies?

I understand how you feel.

I'd still rather have them on my side when the **** hits the fan. The Muslims are scared of them because they are extremely good killaz. They have that land for a reason. Hitler caught many of them off-guard. It won't ever happen again.

[Okla-homey]

GAME ON! Slay 'em by the thousands you glorious Hebrew bastages!:D :D :texan:


Israeli ground forces enter Gaza in escalation
Jan 3 06:18 PM US/Eastern
By IBRAHIM BARZAK and JASON KEYSER

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Israeli tanks and troops launched a ground offensive in the Gaza Strip Saturday night with officials saying they expected a lengthy fight with Hamas militants in the densely populated territory after eight days of punishing airstrikes failed to halt rocket attacks on Israel.
Hamas vowed that Gaza would be a "graveyard" for Israelis forces.

"This will not be easy and it will not be short," Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said soon after the ground invasion began.

The incursion was preceded by several hours of heavy artillery fire after dark, igniting flames in the night sky. Machine gun fire rattled as bright tracer rounds flashed through the darkness and the crash of hundreds of shells sent up streaks of fire.

Artillery fired illuminating rounds, sending streaks of bright light drifting down over Gaza's densely packed neighborhoods. Gunbattles could be heard, as troops crossed the border into Gaza, marching single file. They were backed by helicopter gunships and tanks.

Israeli security officials said the objective is not to reoccupy Gaza. The depth and intensity of the ground operation will depend on parallel diplomatic efforts, the officials said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

"I don't want to disillusion anybody and residents of the south will go through difficult days," Barak said. "We do not seek war but we will not abandon our citizens to the ongoing Hamas attacks."

The U.N. Security Council scheduled emergency consultations Saturday night on the escalation of violence in Gaza.

Eight days of airstrikes have left more than 460 Palestinians dead and four Israelis were killed by rocket fire. Gaza is densely populated, and intense urban warfare in those conditions could exact a much higher civilian toll.

The U.N. estimates that at least a quarter of the Palestinians killed so far were civilian.

"We have many, many targets, Israeli army spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich told CNN. "To my estimation, it will be a lengthy operation."

Before the ground incursion began, heavy Israeli artillery fire hit east of Gaza City in locations were Hamas fighters were deployed. The artillery shells were apparently intended to detonate Hamas explosive devices and mines planted along the border area before troops marched in.

"Gaza will not be paved with flowers for you, it will be paved with fire and hell," Hamas warned Israeli forces. Spokesman Ismail Radwan said in a televised speech Gaza will "become a graveyard" for Israeli soldiers.

A text message sent by Hamas' military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, said "the Zionists started approaching the trap which our fighters prepared for them." Hamas said it also broadcast a Hebrew message on Israeli military radio frequencies promising to kill and kidnap the Israeli soldiers.

"Be prepared for a unique surprise, you will be either killed or kidnapped and will suffer mental illness from the horrors we will show you," the message said.

Hamas has also threatened to resume suicide attacks inside Israel.

Hamas has long prepared for Israel's invasion, digging tunnels and rigging some areas with explosives. At the start of the offensive, Israeli artillery hit some of the border areas, apparently to detonate hidden explosives.

The Israeli government said tens of thousands of reserve soldiers are being mobilized as the offensive in Gaza widens. Before the ground incursion began, defense officials said about 10,000 Israeli soldiers had massed along the border in recent days.

The offensive began last Saturday with a week of aerial bombardment of Hamas targets, in an attempt to halt Hamas rocket attacks that were reaching farther into Israel than ever before.

[StoopTroup]

I've got the Israelis - 10,000.

[King Crimson]

man, nobody is going to bring up Obama in this thread? this is a test for the Prez-elect. you guys are slipping.

again, if Hamas attacked Tel Aviv and there were 25% civilian casualties all we'd hear about is what animals and "terrorists" the Palestinians are.

couched in language that more or less says that if you have better technologies for killing...it's more moral that way.

[Jerk]

I understand how you feel.

I'd still rather have them on my side when the **** hits the fan. The Muslims are scared of them because they are extremely good killaz. They have that land for a reason. Hitler caught many of them off-guard. It won't ever happen again.


Oh I agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not 'anti-Israel' anything and I really want to see them not only win this war but survive as a people in Israel for as long as man inhabits Earth. My problem with them is just a little bitterness over a few things have happened. I kind of feel like the friend that gets used because he's wealthy, has cool toys, and is generous, but wouldn't be given the time of day if he became distressed and needed help in return.

[Okla-homey]

man, nobody is going to bring up Obama in this thread? this is a test for the Prez-elect. you guys are slipping.

again, if Hamas attacked Tel Aviv and there were 25% civilian casualties all we'd hear about is what animals and "terrorists" the Palestinians are.

couched in language that more or less says that if you have better technologies for killing...it's more moral that way.

Now that you mention it, the President-elect has been rather quiet of late, although just a few weeks ago he was having practically daily press conferences wherein he opined on various subjects. More to your point, I suspect one reason, albiet not the main one, the Israelis began their ground game now is to get this done before our Inauguration.

That said, in July, while on the stump, he said this:


In a July interview with The New York Times, Obama said he did not think that "any country would find it acceptable to have missiles raining down on the heads of their citizens."

"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," he said. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

As for talking with Hamas, Obama told the Times that it was "very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=090103214058.23r7czam&show_article=1

Thus, based on the above, it would seem the President-elect should be supportive of this defensive campaign now being waged by the IDF versus such an implacable and irrational foe.

Finally, even under the generally universal Law of Armed Conflict as ratified by well over a hundred nations, when a combatant deliberately chooses to use otherwise non-targetable civilian, cultural or religious facilities from which to launch attacks or fire weapons, those facilities lose their protected status and become legitimate targets. In those situations, collateral damage and civilian casualties are unfortunate but excused.

Therefore, unless and until the Israelis start launching counter-strikes from apartment buildings, hospitals and kindergartens in Tel Aviv, such sites should not be targeted by a civilized combatant, or even animals like Hamas.