Not this **** again...

[Fraggle145]

:mad: Dont these bastards have anything better to do in our state's capitol?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=61&articleid=20081205_61_A16_Tonoon385816


Can of worms
Religion-in-schools bill back

By World's Editorial Writers
Published: 12/5/2008 12:00 AM
Last Modified: 12/5/2008 2:55 AM

To no one's surprise, the measure allowing religious expression in classroom activities and assignments has been resurrected.

The "Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimination Act" was the first House bill filed for the 2009 legislative session, which no doubt is a sign of things to come. With Republicans controlling both the state Senate and House for the first time, look for more of these kinds of measures in coming months.

A similar bill passed last session but was vetoed by Gov. Brad Henry after the session ended.

In general, the bill would allow students to express religious viewpoints and teachings in school activities, tests and homework and would protect them from being penalized for doing so.

The measure also would ensure that religious groups have the same access to school facilities as secular groups, and also would protect religious expressions at school events under certain circumstances.

Backers say the measure only codifies into state law decisions already made by the U.S. Supreme Court. But opponents have a vastly different view.

Among other things, the bill could pave the way for radical religious activities in the schools, and many educators worry that the measure could be especially problematic in science classrooms.

Here's a critical question lawmakers should ask when considering this bill anew: Is it really needed? Why open a can of worms when even the bill's supporters admit the nation's highest court already has ruled on the subjects at issue?

[My Opinion Matters]

Taco cat is a palindrome.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

In general, the bill would allow students to express religious viewpoints and teachings in school activities, tests and homework and would protect them from being penalized for doing so.

The problem with this is what again? Doesn't it read, "or prohibiting the free exercise of..."? Religion has an honest, legitimate place in our schools via two facets. One, the historic value, and two, the freedom to practice by the students. It's not a creationism vs. evolutionary debate or one of instructional material or practice.


Among other things, the bill could pave the way for radical religious activities in the schools, and many educators worry that the measure could be especially problematic in science classrooms.

Way to throw the 'OH NOES CREATIONISM' grenade, Tulsa World. This is explosively stupid. Here's a snippet of the actual language from the bill vetoed by Gov. Henry in June.


...students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions. Homework and classroom assignments shall be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance and against other legitimate pedagogical concerns identified by the school district. Students shall not be penalized or rewarded on account of the religious content of their work."

In other words, feel free to use religious content in school work. It's protected from the red stamp of Instant F or the glowing A of suckup-itry because of content. But watch out, faithful Oklahoma student, your work is still subject to the exact same standards of accuracy as established by the state and individual school boards. In other words, A^2 + B^2 = C^2, not A^2 + B^2 = Because God created triangles.


Here's a critical question lawmakers should ask when considering this bill anew: Is it really needed? Why open a can of worms when even the bill's supporters admit the nation's highest court already has ruled on the subjects at issue?

Why open the can of worms known as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 when you already had Brown v. Topeka Board of Education? The bill is codification of standing case law. Whoopty-frickin'-doo. Homey and the lawyerly types can correct me if I'm wrong, but judicial precedence is based on interpretation of existing statutes, applicable precedence, and constitutional concerns. This removes the question mark of continued litigation where other applicable legal interpretation may act to establish precedence counter to the existing decisions. In other words, legislating from the bench. If the decisions are codified, now it's hard and fast. THIS is the law. Any and all decisions from this point forward in regards to this issue will draw from this statute. Now legislators are doing their job. LEGISLATING.

God forbid.

[My Opinion Matters]

Go hang a salami; I'm a lasagna hog!

That's also a palindrome.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Harrah.

WHIPPED POTATOES AND MASHED POTATOES ARE NOT THE SAME THING, DAMMIT

[My Opinion Matters]

WHIPPED POTATOES AND MASHED POTATOES ARE NOT THE SAME THING, DAMMIT

You're doing it wrong! That is so not a palindrome.

[NormanPride]

Racecar!

[JohnnyMack]

NormanPride dirp nam rom

[Frozen Sooner]

Olson in Oslo

[JohnnyMack]

Frozen Sooner eno osnez orf

This is so easy.

[Viking Kitten]

A slut nixes sex in Tulsa

[OklahomaTuba]

The problem with this is what again? Doesn't it read, "or prohibiting the free exercise of..."? Religion has an honest, legitimate place in our schools via two facets. One, the historic value, and two, the freedom to practice by the students.

AMEN.

This is a constitutional right, freedom of religion. Sadly, this shouldn't need any further legislation, but we can play game.

Education about religious history and practice should be mandatory for all students anyway.

[OUDoc]

Education about religious history and practice should be mandatory for all students anyway.
For what reason?

[Fraggle145]

AMEN.

This is a constitutional right, freedom of religion. Sadly, this shouldn't need any further legislation, but we can play game.

Education about religious history and practice should be mandatory for all students anyway.

Exactly! this is already guaranteed. Isnt there something more important these people should be legislating? This law is pointless and I guarantee will create more trouble than it is worth if passed. I can just see it now when the Pastafarian groups start on high school campuses. Not to mention that someone is going to put "God said so." as and answer and fight it not receiving credit tooth and nail.

And why should it be mandatory? :confused:

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Exactly! this is already guaranteed. Isnt there something more important these people should be legislating?

Like what? Business casual Fridays? Case in point.

It's been established practice (the example of precedence) for the Tulsa Fire Department to mitigate all fluids as a result of motor vehicle collisions, the logic coming from two fronts. One, it's a public hazard, both from the danger it poses for traffic and the public waterways. Two, we as a department are responsible for the mitigation, but not the remediation of hazardous material incidents. As far as departmental policy and DoT regulations (the example of legislation) are concerned regarding the clean-up of hazardous materials, the responsibility rests solely on the spiller. So if and when a citizen decides to bring suit against the Department for actually remediating these hazards, they actually have (albeit silly) a leg to stand on. Doubtful it'll fly, but as it stands, we violate the DoT regulations and our own departmental policy by doing the right thing and assisting/protecting the folks in cleaning up the mess.

Change the regulations (AKA establish/change legislation) to fit the practice. That way there is ZERO liability, zero questions to be had in regards to the practice.


This law is pointless and I guarantee will create more trouble than it is worth if passed. I can just see it now when the Pastafarian groups start on high school campuses.

So? So your point is you want to be exclusionary. If a group of students want to come together with common interests and peaceably assemble (ALSO a right protected by our beloved 1st Amendment!), as long as it can be done so in a positive manner that doesn't affect their prescribed education, why not? Are you saying we get to pick and choose how we apply God given constitutional rights? Are you saying it's okay for Suzie Softball and Frankie Football to hang out with Betty Band and Philbert Physics in peaceable assembly as long as they're not talking about God? Politics, cultural studies, games, nationalities, hell, even the natural preference of right or left hand, but not a common unifier for many communities and people across the world, be it Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, or even a love of the FSM? Why do you care? Why do you want to stand in your OWN pulpit and dictate separation of church and state between members of the community when however you boil it down, it's simply social interaction between likeminded individuals? No different than a love of chess, one's family history, or proficiency at math? THAT'S oppression at its finest, man. Wow.


Not to mention that someone is going to put "God said so." as and answer and fight it not receiving credit tooth and nail.

And why should it be mandatory? :confused:

Apparently you haven't taken the time to actually use those things GOD (ohnoes God!) put in those two holes in the front of your skull, what we call eyes. Check this out. You use them to visualize the reflected light coming from patterns of markings we've assembled as a people to create what we call language. The union of those patterns are called words. You use those to form a coherent thought, known generally as a sentence. A collection of those to stress a certain topic with established structure is called a paragraph. One can use all of these to form anything from entertaining stories, instructional manuals, epics of faith (ohnoes God again!), and laws which are adopted by our elected representatives to stand as our code of conduct in society. In this particular attempt, it is very clear in those magic patterns known as words that established educational standards will be used. Therefore 2 + 2 = 4, not 2 + 2 = God.

Thanks for paying my previous post so much attention. You're pretty sharp at ignoring stuff.

[JohnnyMack]

Education about religious history and practice should be mandatory for all students anyway.

Are we to assume you mean all of them or just yours? I mean I can't imagine having Satan Worshiping Tuesdays at Owasser High.

[OklahomaTuba]

For what reason?
For the same reason we teach any other subject, because it is important part of our culture, our history, and our future.

Censoring or ignoring something fueled by nothing but hate and bigotry seems counter to everything we stand for.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Are we to assume you mean all of them or just yours? I mean I can't imagine having Satan Worshiping Tuesdays at Owasser High.

I can't either. Everyone with a lick of sense knows it's Thursdays, and there's free pie.

DEVIL PIE.

[OklahomaTuba]

Are we to assume you mean all of them or just yours? I mean I can't imagine having Satan Worshiping Tuesdays at Owasser High.
I think the ones that have a direct impact on their lives should be. Of course, this being a Christian nation, and the largest movement in the world's history, it would probably be the primary topic.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I think religious history would be a bitchin' elective to take.

Focus on Christianity, not so much. But again, the history of religion from around the world. I'd have been on that like a chicken on a junebug if I had it in school. As it stands, I don't know a whole lot about the history of various world religions that I haven't received through an extremely filtered Christian view or through internet research.

[LosAngelesSooner]

I think the ones that have a direct impact on their lives should be. Of course, this being a Christian nation, and the largest movement in the world's history, it would probably be the primary topic.Except for the fact that we're NOT a Christian Nation. :rolleyes:

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Except for the fact that we're NOT a Christian Nation.

But we are a Godly nation, with rights endowed by our Creator. Hence my amazement at the resistance to let We the People practice as we see fit.

[Fraggle145]

Like what? Business casual Fridays? Case in point.

It's been established practice (the example of precedence) for the Tulsa Fire Department to mitigate all fluids as a result of motor vehicle collisions, the logic coming from two fronts. One, it's a public hazard, both from the danger it poses for traffic and the public waterways. Two, we as a department are responsible for the mitigation, but not the remediation of hazardous material incidents. As far as departmental policy and DoT regulations (the example of legislation) are concerned regarding the clean-up of hazardous materials, the responsibility rests solely on the spiller. So if and when a citizen decides to bring suit against the Department for actually remediating these hazards, they actually have (albeit silly) a leg to stand on. Doubtful it'll fly, but as it stands, we violate the DoT regulations and our own departmental policy by doing the right thing and assisting/protecting the folks in cleaning up the mess.

Change the regulations (AKA establish/change legislation) to fit the practice. That way there is ZERO liability, zero questions to be had in regards to the practice.

That's the point. There is legislation and regualtions in place for this stuff already. This IMO creates liability.


So? So your point is you want to be exclusionary. If a group of students want to come together with common interests and peaceably assemble (ALSO a right protected by our beloved 1st Amendment!), as long as it can be done so in a positive manner that doesn't affect their prescribed education, why not? Are you saying we get to pick and choose how we apply God given constitutional rights? Are you saying it's okay for Suzie Softball and Frankie Football to hang out with Betty Band and Philbert Physics in peaceable assembly as long as they're not talking about God? Politics, cultural studies, games, nationalities, hell, even the natural preference of right or left hand, but not a common unifier for many communities and people across the world, be it Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, or even a love of the FSM? Why do you care? Why do you want to stand in your OWN pulpit and dictate separation of church and state between members of the community when however you boil it down, it's simply social interaction between likeminded individuals? No different than a love of chess, one's family history, or proficiency at math? THAT'S oppression at its finest, man. Wow.

My point is not meant to be exclusionary at all. If students or other likeminded individuals want to assemble for something that is not school related then there are plenty of other places to do it... Churches for example. I care because I think church and state should be separate. Why the insistence on unifying the two? Why the insistence on putting god and/or religion in schools. If it isnt for a religion class then there isnt a need for it. Opening this up creates more room IMO for oppression within the student body and from faculty based upon what religion you follow, etc... For example where I grew up if you didnt go to a Baptist church and attend FCA regularly you were looked down upon, by both students and faculty. Why make this worse? If the satanic group or the Muslim group of kids for example decides to have meetings at my school or most other schools in this state I dont see that going over very well at all do you?

And its not just my OWN pulpit there are many people that share my opinion.


Apparently you haven't taken the time to actually use those things GOD (ohnoes God!) put in those two holes in the front of your skull, what we call eyes. Check this out. You use them to visualize the reflected light coming from patterns of markings we've assembled as a people to create what we call language. The union of those patterns are called words. You use those to form a coherent thought, known generally as a sentence. A collection of those to stress a certain topic with established structure is called a paragraph. One can use all of these to form anything from entertaining stories, instructional manuals, epics of faith (ohnoes God again!), and laws which are adopted by our elected representatives to stand as our code of conduct in society. In this particular attempt, it is very clear in those magic patterns known as words that established educational standards will be used. Therefore 2 + 2 = 4, not 2 + 2 = God.

Thanks for paying my previous post so much attention. You're pretty sharp at ignoring stuff.

I could debate the idea that it was a deity that put eyes in my head, and that they were instead derived through the process of natural selection. Regardless of that fact and your slighting tone, I saw your example of the math problem earlier and I again I stress that if those magic patterns called words have established educational standards then why do we need to open it up for the possibility of litigation? All I was saying is that it will happen, and probably not for a math or a literature question, but for a science question probably regarding evolution, which can be reconciled with many religious beliefs including many sects of christianity. This will further push apart the two sides (which dont have to be separate at all) and IMO further disenfranchise people towards science. Children arent punished for religious expression now in their assignments, at least IMO, so why is this law necessary?

[Fraggle145]

But we are a Godly nation, with rights endowed by our Creator. Hence my amazement at the resistance to let We the People practice as we see fit.

See I dont get this... the God given constitutional rights thing. Since when were they given by god. I mean that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I just thought that because they are constitutional they are given by the constitution via its writers, and now from the people who are supposed to be upholding its ideals.

[Frozen Sooner]

It's a confusion of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

There was significant debate in the Constitutional Convention about using relgious language in the Constitution, but they eventually decided against it.

[SicEmBaylor]

For the same reason we teach any other subject, because it is important part of our culture, our history, and our future.

Censoring or ignoring something fueled by nothing but hate and bigotry seems counter to everything we stand for.

Well, that's simply wrong.

The only thing schools should be teaching are the absolute basics. Social Sciences, Science, Math, and English. That's it.

***Insert my rant on eliminating public education here***

If students want to learn about various or specific religions then they can go to college.

[LosAngelesSooner]

But we are a Godly nation, with rights endowed by our Creator. Hence my amazement at the resistance to let We the People practice as we see fit.I agree with this...


...however "Godly" includes Judaism and Islam. Imagine the outrage and trouble in Public Schools if Muslim groups started moving in and leading prayer, or kids starting bringing their rugs and praying during class, etc.

No, it's better to maintain a separation of Church and State, just as the Founders intended. If you want to pray in school, go to a private, religious school. Leave public schools alone.

[85Sooner]

deleted

[85Sooner]

double post

[85Sooner]

I agree with this...


...however "Godly" includes Judaism and Islam. Imagine the outrage and trouble in Public Schools if Muslim groups started moving in and leading prayer, or kids starting bringing their rugs and praying during class, etc.

No, it's better to maintain a separation of Church and State, just as the Founders intended. If you want to pray in school, go to a private, religious school. Leave public schools alone.

Public schools were initially never a part of any gov agency and they should be separated from all government influences today. The problem is not "religion in school" The problem is "government in school" and education has been in the ****ter ever since that was established.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Quote me again.

I dare ya.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Reform schools however you want, but as long as schools are funded by the government, there should be NO religion in them.

Period.

[SicEmBaylor]

Reform schools however you want, but as long as schools are funded by the government, there should be NO religion in them.

Period.

I'm pretty conflicted on this issue. The schools should absolutely NOT mandate any sort of religious study or participation, but so long as students are allowed to express themselves in other ways they should be allowed to express their religion.

The conflict here for me is that I don't believe in allowing students to express themselves in any shape, form, or fashion. I believe in school uniforms, and I absolutely oppose student organizations that aren't strictly academic in nature.

There's no reason why kids should be allowed to express themselves in any way, but so long as they are then religion should be one of the ways they can do so.

[olevetonahill]

Reform schools .
I gradeated from Reform Skool :D

[olevetonahill]

I'm pretty conflicted on this issue. The schools should absolutely NOT mandate any sort of religious study or participation, but so long as students are allowed to express themselves in other ways they should be allowed to express their religion.

The conflict here for me is that I don't believe in allowing students to express themselves in any shape, form, or fashion. I believe in school uniforms, and I absolutely oppose student organizations that aren't strictly academic in nature.

There's no reason why kids should be allowed to express themselves in any way, but so long as they are then religion should be one of the ways they can do so.

But you never get Laid . So yer opinion Dont count .:P

[LosAngelesSooner]

Amen.

[Fraggle145]

But you never get Laid . So yer opinion Dont count .:P

Best Post in the whole thread.

[A Sooner in Texas]

The palindromes are more fun, so here's one:

Madam, I'm Adam

Creationism/religious freedom version - don't have one for the evolutionists yet. ;)
.

[olevetonahill]

The palindromes are more fun, so here's one:

Madam, I'm Adam

Creationism/religious freedom version - don't have one for the evolutionists yet. ;)
.

Palin Drome Is that where Sara keeps her Aero Plane ?

[A Sooner in Texas]

Palin Drome Is that where Sara keeps her Aero Plane ?


Ba dum bum.

Good one!

Spek. Like you need some more. :D

[Boarder]

An Anthropology style Religion in Everyday life or a Philosophy of Religion class would be a great addition to schools. It's offered in colleges, and not just Christian colleges. Kids here would do well to learn the history and beliefs of Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, etc., as well as Judaism and Christianity. It'd be a nice elective.

With the public school money problem you always hear about, though, I'd say there are better things to spend the money they do have.

[GottaHavePride]

In other words, feel free to use religious content in school work. It's protected from the red stamp of Instant F or the glowing A of suckup-itry because of content. But watch out, faithful Oklahoma student, your work is still subject to the exact same standards of accuracy as established by the state and individual school boards. In other words, A^2 + B^2 = C^2, not A^2 + B^2 = Because God created triangles.

Which is great until you get to biology class and you have a kid who writes as an answer "Because God made it that way" and fails a test. Then you get lawsuits because they were guaranteed "not to be penalized for religious content" of their work.

And you KNOW it will happen sooner or later. Because people, in general, suck monkey balls.

[JohnnyMack]

I think the ones that have a direct impact on their lives should be. Of course, this being a Christian nation, and the largest movement in the world's history, it would probably be the primary topic.

Other than giving me the occasional day off from work, your religion has no impact on my life. I'd just as soon keep it that way. And your "Christian nation" argument is absurd as religion itself.

[olevetonahill]

Which is great until you get to biology class and you have a kid who writes as an answer "Because God made it that way" and fails a test. Then you get lawsuits because they were guaranteed "not to be penalized for religious content" of their work.

And you KNOW it will happen sooner or later. Because people, in general, suck monkey balls.

Yup
Thats why the Founding Fathers said NO established Religion .
Kids should Be allowed to Say Prayers, whatever in skool . Just NOT faculty Led . ;)

[olevetonahill]

Other than giving me the occasional day off from work, your religion has no impact on my life. I'd just as soon keep it that way. And your "Christian nation" argument is absurd as religion itself.

JM you Know this Country was Founded On Christian Principles . Right ?

[Boarder]

If (in 2001) the US had an estimated 76% population identify themselves as Christian, would that not mean that the US could legitimately be called a Christian nation?

[SicEmBaylor]

JM you Know this Country was Founded On Christian Principles . Right ?

That's not entirely accurate.

[OUTromBoNado]

Which is great until you get to biology class and you have a kid who writes as an answer "Because God made it that way" and fails a test. Then you get lawsuits because they were guaranteed "not to be penalized for religious content" of their work.

And you KNOW it will happen sooner or later. Because people, in general, suck monkey balls.

My Mama says that alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush.

[soonerscuba]

That's not entirely accurate.I know this might hit close to home, but originalists are little more than political cherry pickers that use 200 year-old corpses to justify a particular current world view. If somebody got up and said people can be property and the House should be expanded to 3000 members, I would at least admire their consistency.

To the original topic, I have a hard time imagining these ideas would expand beyond Protestant Christianity, given Oklahomans bizarre obsession with out-Jesusing each other.

[Fraggle145]

SB320 failed today in the Senate Education Committee by a vote of 6 yes to 7 no. Its a good day for science education in Oklahoma.

Here is the bill as written.
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2009-10bills/SB/sb320_int.rtf

[TMcGee86]

I know this might hit close to home, but originalists are little more than political cherry pickers that use 200 year-old corpses to justify a particular current world view. If somebody got up and said people can be property and the House should be expanded to 3000 members, I would at least admire their consistency.

I'm for the latter. It's one of the reasons I think our gov is the way it is today, it just doesnt work on such a large scale, as constructed anyway.

[soonerscuba]

Senate Education Committee 1, Jesus 0. Scoreboard!

[47straight]

This just means that the next public school teacher who decides to punish Johnny E. Vangelist won't have as clear of guidance, and it will take more time and effort to work its way through the legal system.


The nice side effect will be all the extra attorney's fees the ADF will consequently rack up.

[Fraggle145]

This **** has already been proposed in the state house as HB 1001. This must be one of the most important things for our state. WTF is wrong with people?! Because god says so is not an acceptable answer on a test just because you dont want to believe something is true. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.oudaily.com/news/2011/jan/24/our-view-education-standards-risk/

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CD8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebserver1.lsb.state.ok.us%2F2011-12HB%2FHB1001_int.rtf&ei=ffk9TafwMom-sAP8_sjpAw&usg=AFQjCNEUZSLNUa-UnPB3kZdzICSKADVf2g

[Fraggle145]

Which is great until you get to biology class and you have a kid who writes as an answer "Because God made it that way" and fails a test. Then you get lawsuits because they were guaranteed "not to be penalized for religious content" of their work.

And you KNOW it will happen sooner or later. Because people, in general, suck monkey balls.

And this right here is why its a problem.

[Fraggle145]

http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/second-antievolution-bill-oklahoma-006439

And the brilliant mind of Sally ****ing Kern brought us this stinking piece of ****.

Making America dumber one Oklahoman at a time.

[The Profit]

That's not entirely accurate.




In fact, it is not any right. That is total BS. The country was founded more on capitalism than it was on any religion. I have always wondered where in the hell people get the idea that the USA was founded on Christianity. I guess they hear it from their lying preachers.

[The Profit]

http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/second-antievolution-bill-oklahoma-006439

And the brilliant mind of Sally ****ing Kern brought us this stinking piece of ****.

Making America dumber one Oklahoman at a time.:) :)

And folks here wonder why the rest of the nation thinks we are a bunch of Okie Dokies.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Opening this up creates more room IMO for oppression within the student body and from faculty based upon what religion you follow, etc... For example where I grew up if you didnt go to a Baptist church and attend FCA regularly you were looked down upon, by both students and faculty. Why make this worse? If the satanic group or the Muslim group of kids for example decides to have meetings at my school or most other schools in this state I dont see that going over very well at all do you?


Yeah, cause if we get rid of religion kids won't have anything else to use as a club against other kids, like what their mommy and daddy do, who's rich or poor, how you dress, who you hang out with, etc.

In fact when I was in school I don't recall anybody giving a **** about what religion anybody was. They had plenty of other ways of separating groups of people and hating on them. You definitely had a different experience than I did.

[The Profit]

Yeah, cause if we get rid of religion kids won't have anything else to use as a club against other kids, like what their mommy and daddy do, who's rich or poor, how you dress, who you hang out with, etc.

In fact when I was in school I don't recall anybody giving a **** about what religion anybody was. They had plenty of other ways of separating groups of people and hating on them. You definitely had a different experience than I did.




When I was in school we definitely made fun of the Pentecostals. They are still really funny.

[DIB]

Yeah, cause if we get rid of religion kids won't have anything else to use as a club against other kids, like what their mommy and daddy do, who's rich or poor, how you dress, who you hang out with, etc.

In fact when I was in school I don't recall anybody giving a **** about what religion anybody was. They had plenty of other ways of separating groups of people and hating on them. You definitely had a different experience than I did.

You were lucky. Many students tried to make me feel less of a person and less of a Christian, because I was Catholic. I have a Jewish friend and we were both regularly told that we were going to hell by "good" Christians. I can only imagine how non-Judeo-Christian groups would be treated.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Well I grew up in OKC. People in the city are probably less religiously centered. In fact you always had a few of those fundamentalist chicks that wear long dresses and never wear make up. I think they had a rougher time of it than any Jews or Catholics or anybody else, just because of the way they dressed.

[soonerbrat]

Quote me again.

I dare ya.

do you double dog dare him?

[DIB]

Well I grew up in OKC. People in the city are probably less religiously centered. In fact you always had a few of those fundamentalist chicks that wear long dresses and never wear make up. I think they had a rougher time of it than any Jews or Catholics or anybody else, just because of the way they dressed.

Probably true. Broken Arrow had a heavy influence from Rhema Bible College, Guts and Baptists. I am not trying to categorize everyone that are involved with those churches/groups, but the ones I met seemed more concerned about ostracizing those that were different from them than spreading the love of God. They did seem to focus heavily on converting other types of Christians.

[Oldnslo]

It wasn't so easy being Jewish in Oklahoma as a kid. In New York, not so much, but in Oklahoma, there were always a group who were happy to point out all manner of items for me.

I remember getting picked on. And I also remember a kid who stood up for me.

That happened about 33 years ago. Must've made an impression.

[OhU1]

Sally Kern just introduced a bill to let the Burbridge Foundation (Bobbie Burbridge Lane) approve biology and american history books in Oklahoma! ;)

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

In fact, it is not any right. That is total BS. The country was founded more on capitalism than it was on any religion. I have always wondered where in the hell people get the idea that the USA was founded on Christianity. I guess they hear it from their lying preachers.
The south was founded on capitalism, the north was founded on the bible.

[AlboSooner]

I wonder how many people would hold the same view, if they heard Allahu Akbar from their teacher every morning. I am sure that many who want this kind of stuff done, are ok with religion in school as long as it's Christian.

Would they be ok, if they had to stop class so the Moslem teacher can pray 5 times per day, saying over and over again that there is no God but Allah, and that his prophet is Mohamet?

It is my personal belief that these types of bills stem from people who wrongly believe that schools are bad because they "took" God out of schools, and not because they took God out of their own homes, and out of their churches, and they go through the motions every Sunday, and they haven't witnessed to anybody in years, and they read the Bible out of a sense of duty rather than pure pleasure, and they never leave their comfort lives to accommodate the poor, and they lie to themselves that the beggar in the corner street is really a well-to-do man who is lying to take un-earned money.

[Boarder]

First of all, I can't stand Sally Kern and think she's a perfect example of what's wrong in the OK legislature.

BUT, if you read the bill, basically it says that students can be tested on the material taught in class and can be graded on that proficiency. But, the kids don't have to believe it. So, you can give a test that asks five ways that global warming is caused and one of the answers could not be "that is a trick question, it doesn't exist."

The bill does nothing but showboat for Kern. Big surprise there. Same old crap.

[Boarder]

Kern has some real winners this session, btw. Check out HB1553. It repeals places you can't carry a gun if you have a concealed license. If passed, you could now carry in any government building except for federal government (city hall, school board meeting, etc), sports arenas, and pari-mutual gambling places.

HB1550 - you have to pass a reading test before you an get out of the third grade. Sounds good, but it's an unfunded mandate.

HB1554 - Long term elderly care counseling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the evil death panel thing that was such a horrible part of the Healthcare bill?

HB1714 - Curriculum standards. Apparently, Oklahoma must align its English and math curriculum with the national standard. This bill gets rid of that. I suppose that "ain't got" and "git er done" is not in the national standard and that upsets people 'round here.

[Mixer!]

Just Sally Kern & the voters in her district. ;)

[Ctina]

"voluntary advance care planning" = Evil death panel... how dare someone be given the option of writing out their wishes for their long term health decisions! The bastards!

[SicEmBaylor]

Evangelicals scare the bejesus out of me.

[Sooner_Bob]

Evangelicals scare the bejesus out of me.

What the heck is an evangelical?

[Sooner_Bob]

First of all, I can't stand Sally Kern and think she's a perfect example of what's wrong in the OK legislature.

Sometimes I honestly wonder if Sally Kern does all of this crap because she truly believes in it or because she wants to be remembered for grandstanding on certain very touchy issues.

[AlboSooner]

Evangelicals scare the bejesus out of me.

You mean all Christians?



What the heck is an evangelical?

People who believe the Good News, a.k.a the Gospel. Lately somebody in the media decided that Evangelicals are only those who want a theocracy in America.

[The Profit]

I think there is a big difference between evangelicals and bible banging wackos.

[Sooner_Bob]

People who believe the Good News, a.k.a the Gospel.

Wouldn't that just make them Christians?

[Fraggle145]

You were lucky. Many students tried to make me feel less of a person and less of a Christian, because I was Catholic. I have a Jewish friend and we were both regularly told that we were going to hell by "good" Christians. I can only imagine how non-Judeo-Christian groups would be treated.

Every ****ing day. And I was even reasonably popular/well-liked in high school, but they made sure I heard this **** every ****ing day.

Oh and I'm from Owasso, home of that other Jack wagon Brogdon. We have 1 bar not counting Chilis and >50 churches in our city limits.

[Fraggle145]

First of all, I can't stand Sally Kern and think she's a perfect example of what's wrong in the OK legislature.

BUT, if you read the bill, basically it says that students can be tested on the material taught in class and can be graded on that proficiency. But, the kids don't have to believe it. So, you can give a test that asks five ways that global warming is caused and one of the answers could not be "that is a trick question, it doesn't exist."

The bill does nothing but showboat for Kern. Big surprise there. Same old crap.

And I dont disagree with that. But dont tell me that this isnt going to turn into a giant cluster**** and some science teacher isnt going to be made an example out of.

Furthermore the wasted money our state government etc will have to put into lawsuits etc... defending it.

Read what GHP said earlier in the thread. You know it will happen. And you know who will win.

[bigfatjerk]

I do think we need to educate kids on all religion. I took a religious history class when I was in college a few years back and it's amazing how much information there is on these major religion that nobody really knows about even in Christianity. To me we need to start teaching this to kids as early as possible.

But as far as having religion itself in schools. That could lead to one religion being favored by a school. You can't basically have religious services in schools.

[Ike]

Every ****ing day. And I was even reasonably popular/well-liked in high school, but they made sure I heard this **** every ****ing day.

Oh and I'm from Owasso, home of that other Jack wagon Brogdon. We have 1 bar not counting Chilis and >50 churches in our city limits.

I was raised catholic and I heard similar ****, though not nearly every day. Maybe the decreased frequency was also because I was the type to tell people that I didn't really care what they thought. Or because I'd crack jokes about it.

[Boarder]

And I dont disagree with that. But dont tell me that this isnt going to turn into a giant cluster**** and some science teacher isnt going to be made an example out of.

Furthermore the wasted money our state government etc will have to put into lawsuits etc... defending it.

Read what GHP said earlier in the thread. You know it will happen. And you know who will win.
I think there are some legislators here who consider legal challenges to their legislation a badge of honor.

[Fraggle145]

I was raised catholic and I heard similar ****, though not nearly every day. Maybe the decreased frequency was also because I was the type to tell people that I didn't really care what they thought. Or because I'd crack jokes about it.

I got even more pressure because my mom is a longstanding teacher there. She still has to worry about it to this day.

[Ike]

I got even more pressure because my mom is a longstanding teacher there. She still has to worry about it to this day.

Ahhh....I guess that would make standard responses like "Well, Hell is where all the really interesting people are anyway. Plus, I'm sure there are at least a few people there that know how to build an air conditioner" or "gee, if you are so good at repeating things other people told you, why can't you pass these tests?" a little problematic... :D

[Fraggle145]

:D

[Ctina]

Growing up Catholic in Norman either wasn't like that, or I was oblivious. It really could go either way, but I think being a college town, we had a bit more diverse culture and so it wasn't a big deal. I don't think I even got grief for my Jewish last name other than people thinking it was weird. I'm sure I would never have heard the end of it had we lived in another town.

[SicEmBaylor]

Some of you had a very different small town experience than I did.

Maybe Fort Gibson is one of the most progressive small towns in Oklahoma, but I kind of doubt it...

Nonetheless, we had a few Catholic families, Mormons, and otherwise. I never...in my entire life...heard anyone ever say anything negative about their religion. Ever. One of my best friends growing up was Mormon, and we were family friends with a Catholic family. Again, nobody ever cared that I'm aware of.

And FTG is radically evangelical. There is almost literally a church on every corner. With a population of 4k, we have something like 40 churches. FTG is the type of place where nearly EVERYONE in school belonged to Teens for Christ (I steadfastly refused to join) and the meetings were on campus. So, obviously the town isn't home to a lot of religious diversity (except among protestant denomination).

Having said all that, once again, I never ever heard of anyone ever having something said to them. Hubler probably has more insight on this since he's one of those Mormon's, but I'd be shocked to find out I'm wrong.

[Ike]

Some of you had a very different small town experience than I did.

Maybe Fort Gibson is one of the most progressive small towns in Oklahoma, but I kind of doubt it...

Nonetheless, we had a few Catholic families, Mormons, and otherwise. I never...in my entire life...heard anyone ever say anything negative about their religion. Ever. One of my best friends growing up was Mormon, and we were family friends with a Catholic family. Again, nobody ever cared that I'm aware of.

And FTG is radically evangelical. There is almost literally a church on every corner. With a population of 4k, we have something like 40 churches. FTG is the type of place where nearly EVERYONE in school belonged to Teens for Christ (I steadfastly refused to join) and the meetings were on campus. So, obviously the town isn't home to a lot of religious diversity (except among protestant denomination).

Having said all that, once again, I never ever heard of anyone ever having something said to them. Hubler probably has more insight on this since he's one of those Mormon's, but I'd be shocked to find out I'm wrong.

I would imagine that this kind of thing varies wildly from town to town, and further, from church to church...even within the same denominations.

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

I can't either. Everyone with a lick of sense knows it's Thursdays, and there's free pie.

DEVIL PIE.

Its cake dumbarse. Devils food CAKE!! Read the dang memos.