BCS legality question for you lawyers out there

[Collier11]

I found this on another board, what say you? Does this have merit, will it hold up?


Representative Abercrombie is calling for the Department of Justice to investigate the way in which BCS bowl games are handed out. It's his contention that by limiting who is automatically eligible for the big-money, end of year bowls, the BCS is responsible for a restraint of trade in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

[sooner_born_1960]

What the hell is his bitch? Hawaii got in a BCS game last year.

[Soonersince57]

Maybe we will start doing like the grade schools. We'll have 60 bowl games that mean nothing and everyone gets a crystal ball. Touchdowns are worth 1 point so no one scores too much, except for Texas who gets 2 points so we can build their self esteem.

And keep the lawyers out.

[tator]

Maybe we will start doing like the grade schools. We'll have 60 bowl games that mean nothing and everyone gets a crystal ball. Touchdowns are worth 1 point so no one scores too much, except for Texas who gets 2 points so we can build their self esteem.
Don't forget about the medals that go the players. They say "Winner!" on them.

[Partial Qualifier]

well -- maybe it's the kind of legal action that could force the BCS to implement a playoff system :O

[Collier11]

Thats what I think he is getting at...only 6 conf are gauranteed a spot and there are over half the teams that know they almost never have a shot at a BCS game or a natl title

[ouwasp]

this prompted some eye-rolling... but then I figured since the know-it-all college presidents won't implement a play-off, maybe congress will finally do something constructive. But I'm not holding my breath......

[soonerlaw]

My understanding is that the Anti trust Bill regulates trade and commerce. I am not sure a system designed to crown a college football champion would be considered trade or commerce. of course, it could be argued that the with the tickets, sponsorships, all the other things that go on, it would affect trade and commerce.

Also, I don't know this for a fact, but don't only the Big 6 conferences fund the BCS? The reason they get the big payout is because they don't pay in. On the other hand, it basically does cause a monopoly on the system because none of the smaller schools get any recognition and have no chance of winning a national championship.

But at the end of the day, i still don't think the legislative purpose for anti-trust laws was meant to govern college football games, just like it was not meant to govern labor unions or popularity cliques in high schools.

[TopDawg]

My understanding is that the Anti trust Bill regulates trade and commerce. I am not sure a system designed to crown a college football champion would be considered trade or commerce. of course, it could be argued that the with the tickets, sponsorships, all the other things that go on, it would affect trade and commerce.

There's a lot of money involved. I'm no legal expert...judging by your username you know a lot more than me...but if OU was (somewhat) successful in NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma, it seems like this might have some legs.

Y'all can read more about the OU deal here (http://books.google.com/books?id=jDvrK8z_0h0C&pg=PA1566&lpg=PA1566&dq=oklahoma+ncaa+sherman+anti+trust&source=web&ots=CeNUnDKuOg&sig=jmlXivcgNhv_TdFqcPVVQtUoljc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result). I'm not sure if that link takes you directly to page 1566 (yes, 1566), but that's the page it's on.

[Leroy Lizard]

well -- maybe it's the kind of legal action that could force the BCS to implement a playoff system

Why would this affect a playoff? The selection process is the complaint here, not the fact that winners don't advance to another round.

[Collier11]

it is the overall fairness of the selection process, youve got big money exchanging hands and alot of schools have not shot at that or a championship.

[CORNholio]

Socialism. The govt had no business in baseball, and no business in college foozball. If this is all they have to worry about after they get elected then they should have their office stripped from them because there is obviously no need for their position.

[IBleedCrimson]

since when does a preppy clothing chain have business interests
In college football?:rolleyes:




;)

[Collier11]

FAIL!! ;)

[Leroy Lizard]

it is the overall fairness of the selection process, youve got big money exchanging hands and alot of schools have not shot at that or a championship.

You still have to select teams to play in the playoff, so the griping would be just as severe. Make that, more severe.

[Okla-homey]

For over 100 years, the Supreme Court has consistently cooked-up creative, and frankly BS, reasons that MLB isn't in violation of the Sherman Act. If baseball gets a pass, I say college football should get one too. I suspect about twice as many Americans watch the MNC game than watch any MLB World Series game.

More importantly, I don't think the BCS is necessarily exclusionary, which is an essential element of an anti-trust lawsuit as I recall from law skool. I suspect any college or university which is willing to spend the money to be competitive at that level can somehow manage to join a "BCS conference" somewhere.

That said, I'm a proponent of a sixteen team FB play-off. No BCS seal-of-approval required. Period. Start those games the weekend after the conference championship games, with some at-large spots for highly ranked contenders. Let-r-rip and see who plays on January 15 or so for all the marbles.

[Leroy Lizard]

More importantly, I don't think the BCS is necessarily exclusionary, which is an essential element of an anti-trust lawsuit as I recall from law skool. I suspect any college or university which is willing to spend the money to be competitive at that level can somehow manage to join a "BCS conference" somewhere.

Assuming that a BCS conference would let them in. Conferences are not required to do so.


That said, I'm a proponent of a sixteen team FB play-off. No BCS seal-of-approval required. Period. Start those games the weekend after the conference championship games

Consider that "wonderful" playoff idea that has been floating around:

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/8874360?MSNHPHMA

Okay, so if a Ball State player has a final exam on Monday Dec. 15 (final exams begin on that date at Ball State), he would have to fly out of LA and arrive in Indiana on the Sunday after the game, one day before his first final exam. (It's even worse considering the two-hour time change, so a 8:00 am exam is like a 6:00 am exam.)

When would he study? Not many can study on a plane (I sure couldn't), and he is going to be dog-tired on Sunday when he lands. He can't study on Saturday because of the game, and he is preparing for the playoff game the week prior.

If you are proposing a playoff that has players taking final exams less than two days and more than 1000 miles separated from a game, forget it. No one is going to go for it, and for good reason. (And no, you can't make profs change their final exam dates, so don't even bother trying that one.)

So go ahead and call me the bad guy for bringing the issue up. Insult me all you want. I don't care.

[Okla-homey]

Assuming that a BCS conference would let them in. Conferences are not required to do so.



Consider that "wonderful" playoff idea that has been floating around:

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/8874360?MSNHPHMA

Okay, so if a Ball State player has a final exam on Monday Dec. 15 (final exams begin on that date at Ball State), he would have to fly out of LA and arrive in Indiana on the Sunday after the game, one day before his first final exam. (It's even worse considering the two-hour time change, so a 8:00 am exam is like a 6:00 am exam.)

When would he study? Not many can study on a plane (I sure couldn't), and he is going to be dog-tired on Sunday when he lands. He can't study on Saturday because of the game, and he is preparing for the playoff game the week prior.

If you are proposing a playoff that has players taking final exams less than two days and more than 1000 miles separated from a game, forget it. No one is going to go for it, and for good reason. (And no, you can't make profs change their final exam dates, so don't even bother trying that one.)

So go ahead and call me the bad guy for bringing the issue up. Insult me all you want. I don't care.

D00d,

Exams can be and are routinely administered to athletes at different times than the rest of the class. At least they were when I was in college.

And how is it that college football players mustn't ever do what is regularly expected of college basketball players?

[Soonerus]

The positions have no legs...

[Leroy Lizard]

Exams can be and are routinely administered to athletes at different times than the rest of the class. At least they were when I was in college.

Profs are under no obligation to change the exam date. In fact, they can't without the Dean's permission. I know, because I have refused to change final exam dates on many occasions. Emergencies only.


And how is it that college football players mustn't ever do what is regularly expected of college basketball players?

Basketball has extremely low graduation rates. Besides, March Madness does not interfere with final exams.

But don't let those facts get in your way.

[Okla-homey]

Basketball has extremely low graduation rates. Besides, March Madness does not interfere with final exams.

But don't let those facts get in your way.

I'm not just talling about March Madness sir. I'm talking about basketball players being away from campus for a week at a time during the regular season playing road games series, etc.

Are you actually trying to make a case for academics being more important than football for kids fortunate enough to be a member of one of the teams in this proposed annual sixteen team play-off? If you are, and are indeed involved in delivering said acadamic product at some level, respectfully, you should reconsider your customers and priorities. Face it, division 1A college football players at elite programs are there to win football games. If they happen to acquire a college degree in the process, that's a nice added benefit. That may not be politically correct to state, but its a fact.

Finally, you are aware that college football division II and IAA have play-offs right?

[Breadburner]

You will have to lose 1 or 2 regular season games or 1 regular season game and the conferance championship game....

[KingBarry]

Abercrombie is full of it.

Anti-trust statutes are designed to limit monopoly producers, or small groups of suppliers, from taking over a market and thereby restricting the amount of product sold and driving up prices.

It is in effect a free market statute. Standard Oil supplied, what, 80%-90% of refined petroleum products to the United States, so that company was broken up so that the "pieces" would be independent companies that would compete against each other.

The result was more gasoline, kerosene, etc, at lower prices to the consumers.

What Abercrombie appears to be calling for is some kind of system where the suppliers of bowl football games -- the bowl games themselves -- would agree to allow more "mid-major" schools to play in the biggest bowl games.

Here is the fallacy, regarding anti-trust.

If the BCS bowls were left alone to the free market, NO mid-majors would ever play in them. They would rather have an 8-4-type "name" team -- like ND, USC, TX or even OU -- over a 13-0 Hawaii any day.

The "free market" outcome seems unfair to many, and it may be, but the name teams sell tickets, bring fans to hotels, and get eyeballs looking at TV sets. Mid-majors, no matter how sparkling their records, don't achieve any of these. Therefore, by the free market, they would be left out.

What Abercrombie seems to want is an actual "trust"-style behavior -- the BCS bowls get together and decide for political reasons to restrict the number of bids to the teams they want, in order to include others that, on their own merit, would be left out.

You can believe that more mid-majors should be invited to the BCS. I would like to see more of it. But I do not see how you can use the Sherman Act to do so.

But you can understand why he would want to resist free-will for the bowls. The UH Rainbows, who bring practically no fans from the islands, would never be a in a BCS bowl without outside pressure.

[PLaw]

My understanding is that the Anti trust Bill regulates trade and commerce. I am not sure a system designed to crown a college football champion would be considered trade or commerce. of course, it could be argued that the with the tickets, sponsorships, all the other things that go on, it would affect trade and commerce.

Also, I don't know this for a fact, but don't only the Big 6 conferences fund the BCS? The reason they get the big payout is because they don't pay in. On the other hand, it basically does cause a monopoly on the system because none of the smaller schools get any recognition and have no chance of winning a national championship.

But at the end of the day, i still don't think the legislative purpose for anti-trust laws was meant to govern college football games, just like it was not meant to govern labor unions or popularity cliques in high schools.

I recall in the 80's, OU and Georgia headed an effort to apply the broad Sherman Anti-Trust legislation to the NCAA's control over member schools. The NCAA successfully argued that they operate as a non-profit, thus the Sherman act did not apply. The ultimate result was the formation of the CFA.

It's my understanding that the BCS operates outside of the NCAA. If you consider the commerce from the sale of licensed products, then one could surmize that their revenue was adversely impacted due to diminished product sales from not participating in a BCS bowl game.

Seems reasonable.

BOOMER

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm not just talling about March Madness sir. I'm talking about basketball players being away from campus for a week at a time during the regular season playing road games series, etc.

But I am talking about final exams, the last chance a student has to raise his score in class. Unlike midterms, there is no tomorrow when it comes to final exams. And they typically count for a large percentage of a final grade. In my classes, if you don't pass the final exam, you don't pass the class. Period.

Besides, if a student is absent because he is away at a sporting event that is one thing. But the student is not absent on the first Monday of final exams. Tired and unprepared, sure. Absent, no.

And as I said before, college basketball is notorious for its poor academic reputation. You want to emulate THAT?


Are you actually trying to make a case for academics being more important than football for kids fortunate enough to be a member of one of the teams in this proposed annual sixteen team play-off? If you are, and are indeed involved in delivering said acadamic product at some level, respectfully, you should reconsider your customers and priorities.

Customers apparently purchase tickets to athletic events regardless of whether a playoff is implemented. In fact, major college football has significantly larger audiences than any other collegiate sport. If the client is purchasing, what's the problem?


Face it, division 1A college football players at elite programs are there to win football games. If they happen to acquire a college degree in the process, that's a nice added benefit. That may not be politically correct to state, but its a fact.

A nice added benefit?

Here is a direct quote from the NCAA:


Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

True, the NCAA is not necessarily great at reinforcing their own mission statement. But any pro-playoff argument that considers education merely a possible benefit is not going to get too far.

The purpose of collegiate athletics is to allow students to pursue a sport in which they are particularly talented in order to receive a free education. The education is not a side benefit. If you don't believe in that purpose, then what's the point of putting the U on the helmet?

Promise me that you use your argument at any time you are discussing this with a college president. He will be sooooooo swayed by your core principles of academics.


Finally, you are aware that college football division II and IAA have play-offs right?

Yes, you mean the playoffs that some schools refuse to participate over academic issues? The ones involving title games in which fewer fans show up than regular season games? The ones that do not involve tremendous media pressure? The ones that did not have an existing bowl structure that already provided entertaining season finales? Sure, let's talk.

[Soonersince57]

The same efficiency experts that gave us the post office, trillions in debt, and the current economy want to help with the BCS. Oh boy, can't wait.