Wanna know why the Big 3 are dead?

[Veritas]

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4025/paygapoo5.jpg

Can't pay 61% more in labor costs and stay competitive. Unions need to die.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/cancer-on-big-three-29hr-pay-gap.html

[royalfan5]

Completely inept brand management, lack of innovation, and idiotic dealer laws have a lot to do with it too, and that can't be pinned on the Unions. In short, nobody in Detroit has done anything worthwhile since the 50's in any sort of sustained manner.

[Okla-homey]

How does anyone who installs hubcaps on an assembly line honestly believe such labor is worth over 70 bucks an hour? F'em.

Oh, and have you heard about the "rubber rooms" in Detroit?

google it. Or read below:


Money for Nothing

U.S. Car Companies Pay Hundreds of Millions of Dollars in Wages to Idled Workers

By Jeffrey McCracken
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

In his 34 years working for General Motors, one of Jerry Mellon's toughest assignments came this January.

He spent a week in the "rubber room."

The room is a windowless old storage shed in Flint, Mich. It is filled with long tables, Mr. Mellon says, and has space for about 400 employees. They must arrive at 6 a.m. each day and stay until 2:30 p.m., with 45 minutes off for lunch. A supervisor roams the aisles, signing people out when they want to use the bathroom.

Their job: to do nothing.

This is the Jobs Bank, a two-decade-old program in which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many volunteer or go back to school. The rest clock time in the rubber room or something like it.

It is called the rubber room, Mr. Mellon says, because "a few days in there makes you go crazy."

The Jobs Bank at GM and other U.S. auto companies including Ford Motor is likely to cost around $1.4 billion to $2 billion this year. The programs, which are up for renewal next year when union contracts expire, have become a symbol of why Detroit struggles even as Japanese auto makers with big U.S. operations prosper.

'Designed for a Different Time'

While GM often blames "legacy costs" such as retiree health care and pensions for its troubles, its Jobs Bank shows that the company has inflicted some wounds on itself. Documents show that GM itself helped originate the Jobs Bank idea in 1984 and agreed to expand it in 1990, seeing it as a stopgap until times got better and workers could go back to the factories. The idea was to help train or find jobs for senior UAW employees who would "otherwise be permanently laid off" because of better technology or higher productivity. Ford later matched the plan for its UAW employees.

"The bank was designed for a different time, a time when we were growing," says Pete Pestillo, a former Ford executive who oversaw union talks. The Jobs Bank has failed to stop the outflow of jobs at Detroit's unionized auto makers. Since 1990, GM's union payroll, including former subsidiary Delphi, has fallen to about 137,000 from 358,000. Many have retired, died or found other jobs. The rest are in the Jobs Bank.

Mr. Mellon, 55, joined GM in 1972, following his grandfather and his father. Through the 1980s and 1990s, Mr. Mellon held jobs designing electronic systems for vehicle prototypes. In 2000, GM merged two engineering divisions, and he wasn't needed anymore.

Since then, except for a period in 2001 when he worked on a military-truck project, GM has paid him his full salary for not working. That is currently $31 an hour, or about $64,500 a year, plus health care and other benefits.

About 7,500 GM workers are now in the Jobs Bank, more than double the figure a year ago. Each person costs GM around $100,000 to $130,000 in wages and benefits, according to internal union and company figures, meaning GM's total cost this year is likely to be around $750 million to $900 million.

One way employees in the Jobs Bank can fulfill their requirements is to attend eight- or 12-week classes offered by GM. In these classes, Mr. Mellon has studied crossword puzzles, watched Civil War movies and learned about "manmade marvels like the Brooklyn Bridge," he says. One class taught him how to play Trivial Pursuit. More recently, he attended an institute in Flint called the Royal Flush Academy. It is designed for those seeking work in casinos. Mr. Mellon says he isn't interested in casino work and left the academy after they docked his pay because he was 10 minutes late coming back from lunch.

With that he arrived at the rubber room. Every day for a week Mr. Mellon got up at about 4:30 a.m. to make the 45-minute commute to the rubber room from his home in Otisville, Mich. At first he read the newspaper or magazines lying around, such as Reader's Digest. He talked some with acquaintances. After conversation dried up, he says he spent hours staring at the wall, hoping time would move faster.

The waiting "makes you want to bang your head against the wall," Mr. Mellon says. "I couldn't take it. I need to be doing something. And there is a supervisor who walks around staring at everyone. It's worse than high-school detention."

Mr. Mellon thinks a "line-worker mentality" keeps people going back to the rubber room. "A lot of guys sit in that room and just collect their paycheck because they don't know what else to do," he says. "They've spent 20 years tightening a nut as it came down the line. They are faced with this harsh reality, and they are just happy the paycheck still comes so they can put their kid through college."

Mr. Mellon soon found a way to escape the room, through volunteering. He recently arranged to do community service work at Freedom Temple, a Baptist church in Flint. He is installing motion sensors at the homes of senior citizens in a bad part of town.

Corrosive Influence

Mr. Pestillo, the former Ford executive, and others see the Jobs Bank as a corrosive influence with significant indirect costs because it encourages auto makers to build more vehicles than consumers want. Companies figure it is better to build cars with little or no profit margin than to pay people not to work, he says. They also may keep rote work in-house even though it would be cheaper to outsource.

The system gives older union workers little incentive to move to other plants, find jobs at other companies or retire. There is no limit on how long a worker can stay in the Jobs Bank. They don't have to look for work at their company. Contracts allow workers to turn down any job offer at a site farther than 50 miles from their home plant.

Detroit's Big Three auto makers are likely to seek reductions in the program when they renegotiate their contracts with the UAW next year. It may be difficult for the UAW to keep the Jobs Bank intact, not only because of the public-relations problem but also because it is hindering a settlement to get Delphi out of bankruptcy-court protection.

In Flint, Mr. Mellon also sees change on the horizon. "I understand the Jobs Bank needs to have an end to it," he says. "I mean, they've paid me like $400,000 over six years to do nothing, to learn to deal blackjack. But buy me out. Retire me with something like $2,000 for every year I worked. I need that because you know they're going to keep cutting our health care and pensions. You are so vulnerable in retirement."

http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm

[bluedogok]

"Investor" focus on short profits instead of long term heath has also contributed greatly to its downfall. Lack of patience by investors causes that focus in an industry where product development cycles takes several years.

The union contracts and legacy benefits are a big component, but only part of the issue.

[jkjsooner]

Completely inept brand management, lack of innovation, and idiotic dealer laws have a lot to do with it too, and that can't be pinned on the Unions. In short, nobody in Detroit has done anything worthwhile since the 50's in any sort of sustained manner.

That and people still remember the total trash they produced in the '70s. I remember my parents being broken down on the side of the road several times in the late '70s in their Chevy. It leaves a lasting memory.

[Rogue]

Unions also did lots of good. Smart labor organizations recognize that for the workers to survive, the agency/business must prosper.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The dems will protect the labor unions at nearly ALL costs. The only cost they won't pay is to lose the next election. However, they may have found a foolproof way to deal with that, if this last election is an indication of the future.

[Vaevictis]

Here's what it boils down to:

The management of the Big 3 hasn't been worth a lick in decades. They bet on cheap oil in the 1960's, and got hammered in the 70's. They bet on cheap oil in the 90's, and got hammered in the 00's.

When they were fat and happy they signed ironclad union contracts that would put and keep them in the hole with no outs. They never had the ****ing courage to say, "Go ahead and strike."

They designed comparatively low quality vehicles, and were surprised when the competition designed high quality ones to, well, compete.

The standard refrain was, "Not in my career horizon." In other words, management at the Big 3 has been passing the buck for decades, and it should be no surprise that they're in deep ****.

[Okla-homey]

In other words, management at the Big 3 has been passing the buck for decades, and it should be no surprise that they're in deep ****.

and unfortunately, because of the way the general election turned out, we get to reach deep into our collective pockets and give them a vast wad of cash so they can continue to fritter it away. yay us!

at least they can't yet force us to put their overpriced vehicles in our driveways.

[Vaevictis]

and unfortunately, because of the way the general election turned out, we get to reach deep into our collective pockets and give them a vast wad of cash so they can continue to fritter it away. yay us!

at least they can't yet force us to put their overpriced vehicles in our driveways.

I expect that it would have happened either way. The Big 3 employ -- directly or indirectly -- too many people. Neither party wants to take the hammering that would result from turning the Big 3 away.

[85Sooner]

NO NO AND NO TO ANY BAILOUT WHATSOEVER.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I would like to know what the advertising budget for the big 3 is

[StoopTroup]

No bailouts is right.

Management created a system that was broke from the very start.

You can only get bigger by capturing Market Share. They can't compete because they tried to sell the American Brand in places that have adapted to the size of the streets already built in their perspective Countries. Countries without the land mass of the US are never going to be able to buy enough large vehicles like they sell here in the US. So they produce small cars for European markets and the like. Traveling abroad I've seen some of the crap that Ford has tried to sell over there. We see "Sexy" when we bought the European Cars. The Japanese and Koreans have produced efficient, quality built and reasonably priced vehicles. The Big 3 have strutted their chest for so many years and now that fuel prices have risen so sharply and the American People who never adjusted to this rise in fuel and are upside down on a vehicle...well they have had enough. Throw Corporate thievery and bailouts of Corporations who have misused funds already inito the mix...and you have these Big 3 flushed down the toilet.

To jump on the Unions when it's the Company that has continued to produce crap and sign these contracts instead of doing a Lee Iaccoca and trying to restructure the Company for the benefit of Stock Holder, Management and the workers...it's a crying shame.

If any of you have ever been to the Ford Museum in Dearborn Michigan...you'd see the importance behind trying to help these Companies. You can look at the lazy workers that they have created...yes. But the sole reason nobody is going to help the Big 3...is that we all know they failed to adjust and plan for dark times.

Yeah...a bailout is not the answer IMO either, but don't blame the workers and the Unions for the Corporate Welfare of these rubber rooms. The management is solely to blame for them. Especially since they continued to expand them in the 1990's. Hell...I've tried to be loyal to them during that time...I was waiting for them to improve their product. I believe we could again be the World Leader in the Automotive Industry...

The sad fact is...if we are to be a World Leader in the Auto Industry again...we're going to do it after these 3 big gluttons are gone more than likely.

I've seen plenty of folks who just want a job...but these days I see I am also seeing folks who want to do more than save their own jobs...they want to save their Communities. Nobody here can tell me they thought that the reason the GM plant in OKC closed was because of a bunch of lazy Union Workers. It was because of GM not being able to sell those vehicles.

Harley Davidson went through a time when they asked their workers to come up with ideas to improve not only the product...but the productivity of those workers. They did it and Harley was renewed. New Dealerships and products started a renewed craze of people buying into the Harley Brand. Later Management oversold their Dealers when they knew the demand for the product was on the decline. That wasn't the workers fault...it was management's.

I've worked at quite a few places in my life and I've seen lots of the "There sure are plenty of Chiefs...but very few Indians" term get thrown around. Yeah that's a racist term...but if you look past the racism and take a good hard look at the meaning...What is missing is Leadership.

I think Leadership is what is missing in most Companies right now. Most are just sitting around waiting for the right time to act or a bailout...when they ought to be looking for an opportunity.

[OUHOMER]

My SIL worked at Gm here in OKC. She was in the rubber room for about 2 years. They would lend these folks to work at place like the ZOO, RED CROSS, etc. when none of this was going on she would go to work and read all day.

She and my BIL have since transferred to Kansas City. Never could figure out why GM would sign a contract that would guarantee jobs they dont have.

I saw an article the other day that the head of UAW will NOT give any incentives. SAid the union members having given up enough.

[SoonerJack]

How does anyone who installs hubcaps on an assembly line honestly believe such labor is worth over 70 bucks an hour?


http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm

ding ding ding...we have a winner

[SCOUT]

No bailouts is right.

Management created a system that was broke from the very start.

You can only get bigger by capturing Market Share. They can't compete because they tried to sell the American Brand in places that have adapted to the size of the streets already built in their perspective Countries. Countries without the land mass of the US are never going to be able to buy enough large vehicles like they sell here in the US. So they produce small cars for European markets and the like. Traveling abroad I've seen some of the crap that Ford has tried to sell over there. We see "Sexy" when we bought the European Cars. The Japanese and Koreans have produced efficient, quality built and reasonably priced vehicles. The Big 3 have strutted their chest for so many years and now that fuel prices have risen so sharply and the American People who never adjusted to this rise in fuel and are upside down on a vehicle...well they have had enough. Throw Corporate thievery and bailouts of Corporations who have misused funds already inito the mix...and you have these Big 3 flushed down the toilet.

To jump on the Unions when it's the Company that has continued to produce crap and sign these contracts instead of doing a Lee Iaccoca and trying to restructure the Company for the benefit of Stock Holder, Management and the workers...it's a crying shame.

If any of you have ever been to the Ford Museum in Dearborn Michigan...you'd see the importance behind trying to help these Companies. You can look at the lazy workers that they have created...yes. But the sole reason nobody is going to help the Big 3...is that we all know they failed to adjust and plan for dark times.

Yeah...a bailout is not the answer IMO either, but don't blame the workers and the Unions for the Corporate Welfare of these rubber rooms. The management is solely to blame for them. Especially since they continued to expand them in the 1990's. Hell...I've tried to be loyal to them during that time...I was waiting for them to improve their product. I believe we could again be the World Leader in the Automotive Industry...

The sad fact is...if we are to be a World Leader in the Auto Industry again...we're going to do it after these 3 big gluttons are gone more than likely.

I've seen plenty of folks who just want a job...but these days I see I am also seeing folks who want to do more than save their own jobs...they want to save their Communities. Nobody here can tell me they thought that the reason the GM plant in OKC closed was because of a bunch of lazy Union Workers. It was because of GM not being able to sell those vehicles.

Harley Davidson went through a time when they asked their workers to come up with ideas to improve not only the product...but the productivity of those workers. They did it and Harley was renewed. New Dealerships and products started a renewed craze of people buying into the Harley Brand. Later Management oversold their Dealers when they knew the demand for the product was on the decline. That wasn't the workers fault...it was management's.

I've worked at quite a few places in my life and I've seen lots of the "There sure are plenty of Chiefs...but very few Indians" term get thrown around. Yeah that's a racist term...but if you look past the racism and take a good hard look at the meaning...What is missing is Leadership.

I think Leadership is what is missing in most Companies right now. Most are just sitting around waiting for the right time to act or a bailout...when they ought to be looking for an opportunity.

Sure the Leadership has been lackluster. You can't ignore the lead weight the unions have been for decades now. It has to be a symbiotic relationship and both partners have fallen short.

As an aside, why is "too many Chiefs and not enough Indians" racist? Have we gotten to a point where simply using a word that denotes a group of people makes you a racist? I fail to see the derogatory nature of that comment. Sorry, my PC tolerance is extra low today.

[Veritas]

No bailouts is right.

Management created a system that was broke from the very start.
<snipped for brevity>

The UAW have become a parasite that will only die when it has finally killed its host. The rubber room? Great example of a bad idea from management. But the idea would never be pitched for any reason but in an attempt to accommodate ludicrous demands or unconscionable agreements forced by unions.

Yes, there are reasons other than the unions for the current situation, but the UAW is the largest single contributor to the problem.

[sooner_born_1960]

I always thought it was; "Too many chiefs and not enough Injuns". It's probably racist that way, though.

[Sooner_Havok]

Why do you hate Native America?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Lack of patience by investors causes that focus in an industry where product development cycles takes several years.


unfortunately, the patient ones have watched the value of their investments approach zero.

[swardboy]

"No man can serve two masters...."

[Veritas]

Megan McArdle has posted an article on the sitz that is very nuanced. An excerpt:


But whatever your feeling about government intervention in the economy, or the correct level of income inequality, I think there's one thing we can all agree on: for the world to get better, things that don't work have to fail. We cannot keep alive every company, every car and every job that someone once liked, because that way lies stagnation and death. Places where production decisions are made based on how much labor they can consume, rather than how much value they can produce, make everyone in society worse off in the long run.

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/right_to_work.php

[Stoop Dawg]

I expect that it would have happened either way. The Big 3 employ -- directly or indirectly -- too many people. Neither party wants to take the hammering that would result from turning the Big 3 away.

I realize that Detroit is playing the "we provide jobs" card and that it may be politically expedient to get on board with them. But it seems rather obvious to me that if, say, all 3 went out of business tomorrow then the other auto makers would see a huge increase in sales, right? I mean, the fact that some big suppliers went bankrupt doesn't eliminate demand. Honda, Toyota, et all will have to step up production (and probably prices) dramatically to meet demand. Won't they be looking for some people to help meet that demand? Won't they be looking for people with experience in the auto industry?

I've already written to my congressman pleading for no more bail outs. Be sure you guys do the same!

[Stoop Dawg]

Megan McArdle has posted an article on the sitz that is very nuanced. An excerpt:



http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/right_to_work.php

Creative Destruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction)


The notion of creative destruction is found in the writings of Mikhail Bakunin,[1] Friedrich Nietzsche and in Werner Sombart's Krieg und Kapitalismus (War and Capitalism) (1913, p. 207), where he wrote: "again out of destruction a new spirit of creativity arises". The economist Joseph Schumpeter popularized and used the term to describe the process of transformation that accompanies radical innovation. In Schumpeter's vision of capitalism, innovative entry by entrepreneurs was the force that sustained long-term economic growth, even as it destroyed the value of established companies that enjoyed some degree of monopoly power.

I'm a capitalist pig. Let the ****ers fail.

[royalfan5]

I realize that Detroit is playing the "we provide jobs" card and that it may be politically expedient to get on board with them. But it seems rather obvious to me that if, say, all 3 went out of business tomorrow then the other auto makers would see a huge increase in sales, right? I mean, the fact that some big suppliers went bankrupt doesn't eliminate demand. Honda, Toyota, et all will have to step up production (and probably prices) dramatically to meet demand. Won't they be looking for some people to help meet that demand? Won't they be looking for people with experience in the auto industry?

I've already written to my congressman pleading for no more bail outs. Be sure you guys do the same!

Given the massive contraction of the auto market this year, and the dwindling share of the Big 2.8, there may not be that much expansion necessary in that case. You could make the argument the Big 2.8 made their living(to the extent that they did) off of the marginal car buyer. If that marginal buyer is shut out of the auto market, the new car market may be significantly smaller going forward.

[Vaevictis]

I mean, the fact that some big suppliers went bankrupt doesn't eliminate demand. Honda, Toyota, et all will have to step up production (and probably prices) dramatically to meet demand. Won't they be looking for some people to help meet that demand? Won't they be looking for people with experience in the auto industry?

(1) There is a lag time between the increase in demand and the ability to fill it. Bringing new production lines online, hiring and training people, etc.
(2) In the intervening time, vehicle prices will increase due to a shortfall in production. (all other things being equal)
(3) In the intervening time, people will be out of work (and not spending)
(4) There will be a whiplash effect back up the supply chain due to a sudden decrease in production due to the loss of the Big 3 production lines. (eg, upstream suppliers will have to cut their own production due to a downstream decrease in demand by manufacturers)

There are probably other impacts that I'm missing.

Basically, the premise that the situation will stabilize is sound. Markets correct. But they can **** people something fierce in the time between the start of the correction and the achievement of stabilization.

I speculate that it would take years at least, possibly decades, for this market to correct post-Big 3 failure.

[StoopTroup]

All good posts.

It's sad that this is all going down...I just don't get why we just don't let it settle out and see how it goes for awhile.

I've seen very few good results when you throw money at a problem.

I think the AIG deal is the first sign that "Doing something or Giving money in the form of a bailout" is the wrong thing to do.

I can't imagine many of you whether Republican or Democrat are very excited about seeing your taxes pay to help someone who was fiscally incompetent.

Even after 9/11...I wasn't sure that the right thing to do with the Airlines was to give them Money. I did agree that we needed to spend dough on making sure jets didn't let weapons and bombs on-board and that the Flight Decks of these aircraft were secured while In-Flight. That did cost quite a bit of money and it was something I actually helped get accomplished on some of my Companies Aircraft. Still....could the Airlines have survived? My guess is more than likely...things would have been tough for awhile and it might have hurt the economy more than it did...but panicking would have definitely brought about the wrong solution. In the end...it did seem to workout for them all and our Aviation Mass Transportation System in the U.S., although changed...it adapted and we haven't seen another attempt to try hijacking an aircraft again. Thank God for that. I don't ever want to see that again.

I'm glad most of that money was used properly. I just don't see the need right now for all these other companies with their hands out though.

[Stoop Dawg]

(1) There is a lag time between the increase in demand and the ability to fill it. Bringing new production lines online, hiring and training people, etc.
(2) In the intervening time, vehicle prices will increase due to a shortfall in production. (all other things being equal)
(3) In the intervening time, people will be out of work (and not spending)
(4) There will be a whiplash effect back up the supply chain due to a sudden decrease in production due to the loss of the Big 3 production lines. (eg, upstream suppliers will have to cut their own production due to a downstream decrease in demand by manufacturers)

There are probably other impacts that I'm missing.

Basically, the premise that the situation will stabilize is sound. Markets correct. But they can **** people something fierce in the time between the start of the correction and the achievement of stabilization.

I speculate that it would take years at least, possibly decades, for this market to correct post-Big 3 failure.

All that makes sense.

And I'm perfectly fine with it.

[StoopTroup]

I also like the sound of "StoopTroup's Hybrid Lamborghini's and Off-Road Exotics"...

[Boarder]

Wouldn't you think they'd cut stuff to the bone before just folding? Or do the union contracts kill that? It'll be a really weird day when it goes down.

[StoopTroup]

I don't know of any Union contracts that stop a Company from laying folks off.

I'm pretty sure they can let people go when operationally necessary.

[badger]

They were all in Washington today begging for $25 billion. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=20081118_298_hr041257)

It is a sign of the times. They tried things their way and obviously failed. Now, the government will take care of us like a overprotective parent :rolleyes:

[bluedogok]

I saw this in the paper today....

http://blog.oregonlive.com/ohman_impact/2008/11/large_OHMAN1112.jpg

[Stoop Dawg]

I don't know of any Union contracts that stop a Company from laying folks off.

I'm pretty sure they can let people go when operationally necessary.

Did you read post #3 in this thread?

Add in retiree health care and pensions, and you've got quite a mess.

[Boomer_Sooner_sax]

I got an idea. Build a better product and don't charge $30,000 for crap. GM, I am talking to you!

[C&CDean]

There's not much in this world that I hate more than labor unions. Union officials are nothing but parasites sucking the life out of organizations. Poor bastard union members who've been duped into paying dues seriously need to pull their heads out and see what their beloved union has done to them.

Yes, management shares the blame, but in their defense, when you've been dealing with militant union jackholes finding every way they can to screw the company's - and your - bottom line and line their filthy pockets and continue to get a cushy screw off job up at the union house I have to say they're not focusing on what they should be focusing on. Instead of working towards growth, they're spending every waking hour responding to bull**** union grievances and the like. **** the unions. Deep and hard.

I have come by my hatred honestly. I spent 7 years as a steward in one union, and 3 years in another. I even ran for vice prez in one Local. Then one day, almost magically, I saw the light. I had filed the same grievance about 8 times for the same member. He deserved to be fired, but here I was going to bat for him again and again. I thought to myself "this is some ****ed up ****." So I quit, and 6 months later was in management.

My brand new John Deere was built in Germany. They make the same model in Waterloo, Iowa, but my wife's uncle (who recently retired from JD) warned me to buy the German built model. I asked him why and he said "cause those worthless POS union guys in Waterloo couldn't give a damn about the tractors they build. I helped set up the plant in Germany, and those guys actually care about the product they put out. You can't go wrong, since all the components are the same, the only difference is the labor putting the tractor together."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If Toyota would ever build a 1-ton diesel I'd trade my Ford in on it in a heartbeat.

[NormanPride]

****.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Ask the Japanese about unions.

Heh.

[Sooner_Bob]

Could it also have a little something to do with trying to push off $40,000 vehicles as "good deals"?

[TUSooner]

There's not much in this world that I hate more than labor unions. Union officials are nothing but parasites sucking the life out of organizations. Poor bastard union members who've been duped into paying dues seriously need to pull their heads out and see what their beloved union has done to them.

Yes, management shares the blame, but in their defense, when you've been dealing with militant union jackholes finding every way they can to screw the company's - and your - bottom line and line their filthy pockets and continue to get a cushy screw off job up at the union house I have to say they're not focusing on what they should be focusing on. Instead of working towards growth, they're spending every waking hour responding to bull**** union grievances and the like. **** the unions. Deep and hard.

I have come by my hatred honestly. I spent 7 years as a steward in one union, and 3 years in another. I even ran for vice prez in one Local. Then one day, almost magically, I saw the light. I had filed the same grievance about 8 times for the same member. He deserved to be fired, but here I was going to bat for him again and again. I thought to myself "this is some ****ed up ****." So I quit, and 6 months later was in management....
Sounds a lot like my experience with the National Association of Letter Carriers. Except I saw straight away that the NALC was wasting my dues to protect lazy ***es, and that protecting them meant I got to do the work they refused to do. Yippee.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Sounds a lot like my experience with the National Association of Letter Carriers. Except I saw straight away that the NALC was wasting my dues to protect lazy ***es, and that protecting them meant I got to do the work they refused to do. Yippee.

Strange coincidence, that sounds a lot like the International Association of Firefighters, Local 176.

[Sooner_Bob]

Ask the Japanese about unions.

Heh.

sectual unions?

[mdklatt]

My brand new John Deere was built in Germany.

But you're always saying that anybody who buys a European vehicle is a moran.

:pop:

[OklahomaTuba]

This is a bailout of the United Auto Workers, not the American auto industry.

Why else would we loan $50 Billion to an industry worth, at most, $10 Billion in total??

Let the market work for crying out loud, and kill these damn union parasites.

[royalfan5]

Honestly, wouldn't it be a **** lot cheaper to give Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio to Canada. Plus, it would prevent the Big 10 and Notre Dame from continuing to make College Football and Basketball suck.