Was JFK the best Democrat President of the 20th Century?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I tend to think so. He was patriotic, a military(Navy) man. He CUT taxes when president. Unheard of for a Democrat.

[Lott's Bandana]

FDR

[Condescending Sooner]

Almost ended the world with WWIII after the miserably planned Bay of Pigs.

Fail.

[SicEmBaylor]

Truman by a long shot.

[yermom]

after all, if it wasn't for FDR we could be looking forward to W pt. III ;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Ike.

The Interstate Highway System, baby! Interstates!

[yermom]

surely Ike wasn't a Dem

[soonerscuba]

surely Ike wasn't a DemHe was a Republican, and a damn fine one, I might add.

This conversation begins and ends at Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

[yermom]

yeah, i'm guessing you weren't all that thrilled with the Bay of Pigs either

[Boomer_Sooner_sax]

I am in agreement, FDR all the way.

[Veritas]

FDR? Sheesh, ya'll people are going to give me a coronary.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Guh. Yeah, Ike was a Pub. Should've paid attention to the subject.

Truman + fatman = glass parking lots

Harry FTW.

[badger]

I vote wheelchair dude!

[JLEW1818]

FDR

Won 2 wars basically, got economy going.

Then again he got dealt some bad cards that he did good against. I'm sure others could have done the same in his situation.

[yermom]

FDR? Sheesh, ya'll people are going to give me a coronary.

i knew this was coming eventually :D

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

FDR? Sheesh, ya'll people are going to give me a coronary.The decade of the 30's, with Depression, culminating in war is prolly what makes FDR better than JFK, I guess?

[Scott D]

Truman...case closed.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

FDR piddled around with make-work govt. projects for what, 9 yrs. until the Pearl Harbor attack by the Nips really got the US economy sparked-up. I don't see this as any great achievement by the New Dealer.

[85Sooner]

Truman...case closed.

dittos on that.

[soonerscuba]

I would say convincing an isolationist nation to embark on a 4 year campaign which freed people on 3 continents, stopped a genocide, and placed America firmly atop the world pecking order is a decent enough achievement, add to the fact that he was elected 4 times and crippled with polio makes him a special figure within American politics.

The man is not without criticism, but come on, the dude's on the dime and is regarded roundly by citizens and academics alike as one of the greatest ever, even beyond the 20th century. Personally, I think the whole notion of basing your views of a president solely on what you perceive as lowering taxes is both lazy and revisionist.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Joe Mama

[SicEmBaylor]

Heh, I forgot about Truman. I'm amending my answer.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

FDR=Socialist. JFK=Not Socialist

[TUSooner]

I would say convincing an isolationist nation to embark on a 4 year campaign which freed people on 3 continents, stopped a genocide, and placed America firmly atop the world pecking order is a decent enough achievement, add to the fact that he was elected 4 times and crippled with polio makes him a special figure within American politics.

The man is not without criticism, but come on, the dude's on the dime and is regarded roundly by citizens and academics alike as one of the greatest ever, even beyond the 20th century. Personally, I think the whole notion of basing your views of a president solely on what you perceive as lowering taxes is both lazy and revisionist.

I couldn't have said it better. I used to dis FDR because of the New Deal & Big Gubment & stuff. But sometimes ya gotta put theories and ideology aside for a second to give credit where credit is due.

[TUSooner]

FDR=Socialist. JFK=Not Socialist

There are 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and those who don't.

[Lott's Bandana]

I would say convincing an isolationist nation to embark on a 4 year campaign which freed people on 3 continents, stopped a genocide, and placed America firmly atop the world pecking order is a decent enough achievement, add to the fact that he was elected 4 times and crippled with polio makes him a special figure within American politics.

The man is not without criticism, but come on, the dude's on the dime and is regarded roundly by citizens and academics alike as one of the greatest ever, even beyond the 20th century. Personally, I think the whole notion of basing your views of a president solely on what you perceive as lowering taxes is both lazy and revisionist.

I roundly agree with all of the above. Nailed it. Sure, he created lots of gubment programs but peeps had to work and we still have a great deal of those projects around still...

Oh, and the phrase in bold tickles me for some reason.

[SoonerStormchaser]

My vote goes to Harry S Truman.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

There are 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and those who don't.Socialism is OK in setting up sports leagues, such as the NFL with it's draft, salary caps, etc. to make teams as equal as possible to try to insure fans of all teams are motivated. In the real, great big world, only as much freedom as possible is the best solution to prosperity and happiness. I don't expect a govt. lawyer to see it that way.

[JLEW1818]

Was JFK the only Catholic pres?

[SicEmBaylor]

Was JFK the only Catholic pres?

Yes

[Veritas]

I'll grant that FDR was the most impactful President regardless of party of the 20th century. He was the hero and model of my favorite President, Ronald Reagan.

Yes, FDR convinced a strongly isolationist union to enter a foreign war, but only after he embargoed the Japanese Empire into attacking Pearl Harbor. Sure, he saw the country through the Great Depression, but one could make a strong argument that his interventionist policies prolonged the depression. He made changes that led to Bretton-Woods I and the ultimate decoupling of the dollar from gold. He instituted the black hole of taxpayer dollars known as Social Security. And most importantly, FDR failed to recognize Josef Stalin for what he was, leading to dramatic mistakes at the Yalta Conference that contributed to the Soviet domination of Eastern Eurupe for half a century.

Was he the "best" Democratic President of the 20th century? The question itself is flawed (and I realize not initial subject of this thread). FDR is in a class of his own and stands as both goat and hero. He can't really be compared to any other President of the 20th century, Democrat or otherwise as realistic standards for comparison (read: apples to apples) don't exist.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Best damn Democrat = Oxymoron

There never has been a Best damn Democrat and never will. Better title would be just plain Damn Democrat. :P

Edit: wow, i gues my brain just inserted the word damn into the title, Oh well, works for me.

[soonerscuba]

I'll grant that FDR was the most impactful President regardless of party of the 20th century. He was the hero and model of my favorite President, Ronald Reagan.

Yes, FDR convinced a strongly isolationist union to enter a foreign war, but only after he embargoed the Japanese Empire into attacking Pearl Harbor. Sure, he saw the country through the Great Depression, but one could make a strong argument that his interventionist policies prolonged the depression. He made changes that led to Bretton-Woods I and the ultimate decoupling of the dollar from gold. He instituted the black hole of taxpayer dollars known as Social Security. And most importantly, FDR failed to recognize Josef Stalin for what he was, leading to dramatic mistakes at the Yalta Conference that contributed to the Soviet domination of Eastern Eurupe for half a century.

Was he the "best" Democratic President of the 20th century? The question itself is flawed (and I realize not initial subject of this thread). FDR is in a class of his own and stands as both goat and hero. He can't really be compared to any other President of the 20th century, Democrat or otherwise as realistic standards for comparison (read: apples to apples) don't exist.This is how you argue a point with civility.

I would disagree about the Stalin part, I think FDR knew exactly what Stalin was, put it was a choice that he had to make and we needed them on both fronts. The Soviet Union was a brutal place, but they were essential in defeating Germany and Japan and that means leverage when it came to chopping up Europe, while this exists as a terrible consequence in the Eastern Bloc, we had to make concessions.

[Veritas]

I would disagree about the Stalin part, I think FDR knew exactly what Stalin was, put it was a choice that he had to make and we needed them on both fronts. The Soviet Union was a brutal place, but they were essential in defeating Germany and Japan and that means leverage when it came to chopping up Europe, while this exists as a terrible consequence in the Eastern Bloc, we had to make concessions.
Operations Bodyguard and Fortitude would never have been enough to keep the Germans off-balance had the Soviets not been a threat at the Eastern front. That much is true without question. And you're right that the Soviet Union kept Japan in fear of an invasion. As an aside, another hero and goat, MacArthur, deserves much credit for keeping the Sovs out of post-war Japan...he knew what they represented.

The argument I would have made against my point is that the blame for much of the immediate subjugation of Eastern Europe could assigned to the squabbling between Montgomery, DDE, and Patton that delayed troop movement into Berlin. These delays allowed the Soviets to make significant troop movements during the last weeks of the war.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment.

[Scott D]

That goes into another discussion V about how Monty was a preening jackass that nearly sabotaged D-Day.

[soonerscuba]

Interesting thought, but at what point does a US C-in-C put the kibosh on forward movement, Berlin, Moscow? I might be terribly wrong, but wasn't the Soviet invasion of Berlin something of a spoil of war for what happened in Stalingrad?

[Veritas]

Interesting thought, but at what point does a US C-in-C put the kibosh on forward movement, Berlin, Moscow? I might be terribly wrong, but wasn't the Soviet invasion of Berlin something of a spoil of war for what happened in Stalingrad?
Not really...it was a race to occupy Berlin, and during the post-war period the old cliche "posession is 9/10ths of the law" held sway when it came to deciding the occupation zones.

Yup, Monty was a pompous ***, second only in vacuous pomposity to De Gaulle, who came a lot closer to blowing D-Day by inciting the Maquis to general revolution.

[Okla-homey]

LBJ doesn't get enough credit for his civil rights work. The man completed the great work set in motion by the New Englander JFK, who might not have got it done even had he lived. It took a Southerner in the WH to ram those things home. And ram them LBJ did.

just sayin'

That said, my pick for bestest Donk prez of the 20th c. is HST.

[A Sooner in Texas]

I'll always love Truman, but he wouldn't have had the A-bomb to end the war if FDR hadn't approved the program.
FDR is not only one of the greatest Democratic presidents of the 20th century, he is one of the greatest PRESIDENTS in our country's history. He did put much of the country to work in the Depression with his many alphabet-soup agencies, while building a great deal of infrastructure through the WPA. We still have many buildings still standing and being used thanks to the WPA. Lend-Lease was his brainchild and enabled the Soviet Union to continue fighting the Nazis and bleeding them dry, which gave us time to build up our forces and armament for the invasion of Europe.
As for giving Joe Stalin Eastern Europe, I believe that stemmed from a combination of keeping the Russians fighting and FDR's badly deteriorated health.
And, he did have the foresight to pick HST as his vice-pres.:)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

He (FDR)did put much of the country to work in the Depression with his many alphabet-soup agencies, while building a great deal of infrastructure through the WPA.
Those socialist moves didn't cause the economy to improve. Then, the war started, and the economy kicked in.

I'm gonna stay with JFK, who lowered taxes, because he knew such a move would ACTUALLY stimulate the economy, due to human nature.

[reevie]

Another vote for FDR.

He built a coalition that ensured his party's dominance that really wasn't broken until Reagan. His policies reshaped the government. And he was elected POTUS 4 times.

[Sooner_Havok]

Another vote for FDR.

He built a coalition that ensured his party's dominance that really wasn't broken until Reagan. His policies reshaped the government. And he was elected POTUS 4 times.

Heh, one of my Professors at OU said that FDR was the worst thing to happen to America ever. :D

[Rogue]

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Another vote for FDR.

He built a coalition that ensured his party's dominance that really wasn't broken until Reagan. His policies reshaped the government. And he was elected POTUS 4 times.and for what he did to our country, you give him kudos.

[Civicus_Sooner]

no, Bill Clinton.

[A Sooner in Texas]

and for what he did to our country, you give him kudos.


what he did TO our country? I tend to think that someone who was able to gear us up into fighting form as quickly as he did and inspire a whole nation to truly sacrifice for a war effort (unlike "go shopping" after 9/11) did a hell of a lot FOR our country. I'm sorry, I just don't think cutting taxes, great as that is when it can be done without putting us into or building our deficit, is always the best sign of a great president.

[tommieharris91]

what he did TO our country? I tend to think that someone who was able to gear us up into fighting form as quickly as he did and inspire a whole nation to truly sacrifice for a war effort (unlike "go shopping" after 9/11) did a hell of a lot FOR our country. I'm sorry, I just don't think cutting taxes, great as that is when it can be done without putting us into or building our deficit, is always the best sign of a great president.

Meanwhile, CNBC discusses whether US Treasury bonds will lose their AAA rating. Why is that? The deficit. Too bad RLIMC won't see this. He has me on ignore.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27641538/site/14081545

[A Sooner in Texas]

Meanwhile, CNBC discusses whether US Treasury bonds will lose their AAA rating. Why is that? The deficit. Too bad RLIMC won't see this. He has me on ignore.

Now RLIMC can see it. :D

[A Sooner in Texas]

Hey, I just hit 400 posts! And I'm even at work! :D

[tommieharris91]

Now RLIMC can see it. :D

Add the link too plz. :D

[A Sooner in Texas]

Add the link too plz. :D


http://www.cnbc.com/id/27641538/site/14081545

Here ya go. YWIA. ;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

what he did TO our country? I'm sorry, I just don't think cutting taxes, great as that is when it can be done without putting us into or building our deficit, is always the best sign of a great president. "He built a coalition that ensured his party's dominance that really wasn't broken until Reagan. His policies reshaped the government. And he was elected POTUS 4 times."-reevie

BTW, Cutting taxes results in revenue enhancement for the govt.

[Jimminy Crimson]

JFK is romanticized way too much just because his head got 'sploded. :eek:

I'd probably say Truman, although is there a such thing as 'best Democrat'? ;) Least bad, would probably be a better term.

[jkjsooner]

BTW, Cutting taxes results in revenue enhancement for the govt.

Even if you are a proponent of the Laffer Curve Theory, it all depends on where you are in the curve.

As always you simplify it way too much. I realize that Rush supporters only understand things in the most simplistic of terms.

Do us a favor. Start listening to other conservatives. There are plenty of thoughtful, intelligent conservative talk shows out there. You might free your mind a bit.

[soonerscuba]

BTW, Cutting taxes results in revenue enhancement for the govt.This of course is caused by the fairy dust that the IRS puts on tax payments.

[KingBarry]

Operations Bodyguard and Fortitude would never have been enough to keep the Germans off-balance had the Soviets not been a threat at the Eastern front. That much is true without question. And you're right that the Soviet Union kept Japan in fear of an invasion. As an aside, another hero and goat, MacArthur, deserves much credit for keeping the Sovs out of post-war Japan...he knew what they represented.

The argument I would have made against my point is that the blame for much of the immediate subjugation of Eastern Europe could assigned to the squabbling between Montgomery, DDE, and Patton that delayed troop movement into Berlin. These delays allowed the Soviets to make significant troop movements during the last weeks of the war.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment.


I don't know WWII well enough to know for sure, but I believe your contention regarding Berlin is wrong. FDR and Churchill both agreed (I believe at Yalta) that they would not go to Berlin, and that the German capital would be reserved to Stalin and the Red Army. Maybe you are saying the squabbling among the Western, democratic Allies occured before the agreement, and that is why FDR and Churchill gave Berlin to Stalin?

And another poster contended that FDR knew who Stalin was. Again, not an expert here, but I think FDR badly underestimated Stalin throughout the war. FDR seemed to think that he could personally control Stalin and therefore ignored Churchill's warnings of what was to come for Eastern Europe.

Saying that FDR didn't know who Stalin was personally is different from saying that FDR didn't know what the Soviet Union and the Stalinist government represented. He must have had some idea of what was going on in the "Workers' Paradise," but its not hard to believe that FDR (or many other outsiders) may not really have known the truth of the Gulag.

[Veritas]

I don't know WWII well enough to know for sure, but I believe your contention regarding Berlin is wrong. FDR and Churchill both agreed (I believe at Yalta) that they would not go to Berlin, and that the German capital would be reserved to Stalin and the Red Army. Maybe you are saying the squabbling among the Western, democratic Allies occured before the agreement, and that is why FDR and Churchill gave Berlin to Stalin?
That's what I'm saying, however ineptly. :) By the time Yalta took place the Red Army were on top of Berlin, giving Stalin a strong bargaining position.


I think FDR badly underestimated Stalin throughout the war. FDR seemed to think that he could personally control Stalin and therefore ignored Churchill's warnings of what was to come for Eastern Europe.
We aren't the only people to think this...I'm reading yet another tome on the Big Three and this theme stands as a central point.

[swardboy]

Jimmuh Carter!!!! He paved the way for Ronaldus Maximus.....

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Jimmuh Carter!!!! He paved the way for Ronaldus Maximus.....Good point. But one can easily make a case for FDR or LBJ as worse than Carter.

[TUSooner]

Socialism is OK in setting up sports leagues, such as the NFL with it's draft, salary caps, etc. to make teams as equal as possible to try to insure fans of all teams are motivated. In the real, great big world, only as much freedom as possible is the best solution to prosperity and happiness. I don't expect a govt. lawyer to see it that way.

Dear Rush's Parrot Dude -
My post was not about socialism. It was about your fanatical two-tone cartoon view of the world (which your irrelevant response demonstrated better than I ever could.)

[Oldnslo]

Tough call. I'll go with HST

Here's my problem with the question (it's also, by the way, my problem with Bush haters):

The presidency has the unfortunate tendency, approaching 100%, of revealing each and every inadequacy and flaw of the President's thoughts and character. The job is so demanding, and the demands so varied, that one is pretty much guaranteed to fail in one area or another.

In order to be considered an outstanding Prez, one needs to not only be exceptional, but also to be in exceptional times, so that the president can rise to the occasion. If you happen to leade the country during relatively calm times, you don't get much chance to shine, and an otherwise outstanding individual misses out on the chance to be considered one of the best. However, you can live in challenging times and merely be above-average and thereby be considered an utter failure (yes, GWB, who I consider to be among the most tragic figures in memory--had he presided over, say, the Clinton years, he'd have fared much better).

Anyway, we've been blessed with truly few historically BAD presidents. But as for the best Dem... I'll go with HST.

Side question: If you could pick a past President to have presided over the last 8 years, who and why?

HST. The Bomb!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Dear Rush's Parrot Dude -
My post was not about socialism. It was about your fanatical two-tone cartoon view of the world (which your irrelevant response demonstrated better than I ever could.)The new regime will do virtually everything they can think of to shore up the economy...except the only things which will actually achieve that end, which are to cut back on some business regulations and restrictions, and cut tax rates, to stimulate investment.

[TUSooner]

The new regime will do virtually everything they can think of to shore up the economy...except the only things which will actually achieve that end, which are to cut back on some business regulations and restrictions, and cut tax rates, to stimulate investment.

What does that have to do with JFK, FDR or anything else? No wait; I really don't want to know.

[tommieharris91]

The new regime will do virtually everything they can think of to shore up the economy...except the only things which will actually achieve that end, which are to cut back on some business regulations and restrictions, and cut tax rates, to stimulate investment.

What he doesn't realize is that cutbacks on businesses regulations (sponsored by Bill Clinton, Phil Gramm, and George W. Bush) got us into this mess in the first place.

I still don't like the capital gains and windfall profits tax hikes, though.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What does that have to do with JFK, FDR or anything else? No wait; I really don't want to know.It's just the main theme of the thread. JFK lowered taxes to help the economy(this is GOOD) As far as I know, he's the only 20th century Democrat pres. to understand how the govt. can help to cause economic prosperity . FDR did make-work govt. projects that didn't spur the economy(this was not so good)