If you favor labor unions, you'll love this...

[Okla-homey]

I attended a CLE session all day styled "Hawt Topics in Employment Law"

There is a bill winding its way thru Congress called the "Employee Free Choice Act" (EFCA) designed to reverse the decades long decline in union membership and power.

Under current Federal law, if 30% of the workers sign authorization cards passed out by union organizers, the NLRB rolls in and conducts an election. Mind you, this handing out of cards is usually done on the down low and often, the employer isn't even aware its happening.

After the cards are turned in and the count is determined to be at least that magic 30%, and while they are waiting on the NLRB to conduct the election, the employer gets to campaign against unionization while the union gets to campaign for it.

At the NLRB administered election, all the workers vote on secret ballots in the privacy of a voting booth -- so there's no pressure on individual workers either from the employer's goons or the union's goons.

If this EFCA passes, which it surely will in the current Congress, and the president signs it into law after Inauguration Day, (whether he be JSM or BHO) here's what changes:

If the union organizers can talk more than 50% of the workers into signing authorization cards, presto! Its a union shop. No election. No secret ballots. Done deal. They get to skip all that and immediately begin negotiation of a collective bargaining agreement.

waddayallthink about that?

:pop:

[SicEmBaylor]

This bill, in one form or another, has been a pet project for Democrats the last few years. I think the next Congress will almost certainly pass it and Obama will even more certainly sign it.

I first became aware of it because it eliminated the ability of a union member to vote secretly. I don't like the legislation, but then again I detest labor unions and consider them little more than socialist front organizations hell bent on destroying every vestige of free-market capitalism. I don't consider anything more anti-American than a union of any sort.

[Okla-homey]

This bill, in one form or another, has been a pet project for Democrats the last few years. I think the next Congress will almost certainly pass it and Obama will even more certainly sign it.

I first became aware of it because it eliminated the ability of a union member to vote secretly. I don't like the legislation, but then again I detest labor unions and consider them little more than socialist front organizations hell bent on destroying every vestige of free-market capitalism. I don't consider anything more anti-American than a union of any sort.

One thing's for sure, they have put the US automotive industry in the toilet. I know I say this a lot, but its compelling to me, GM spends more on retired employee benefits than it does on steel.

[Frozen Sooner]

That's certainly one interpretation of the bill.

It leaves out the process by which a minority of employees can require that a secret ballot be held for certification.

it also leaves out that the bill implements penalties for some illegal labor practices that anti-union shops are currently able to engage in with no penalty (such as retributive firing.)

[SicEmBaylor]

One thing's for sure, they have put the US automotive industry in the toilet. I know I say this a lot, but its compelling to me, GM spends more on retired employee benefits than it does on steel.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Look I'm not an economist, but one of the reasons that I oppose free trade agreements (it's not free trade that I am necessarily against, it's the treaty part) is that American labor unions, labor laws, corporate tax rates, environmental laws, labor costs, etc. have made it almost impossible for American labor to compete with cheap third world labor no matter how good our products are.

Paradoxically, I oppose free-trade agreements in large part because of the damage done by labor unions to the free-market which doesn't really make the trade all that free and certainly not fair but it has the effect of putting me on the side of the very people that I blame for the problem.

[Jerk]

When growing up, I dreamed of getting a job at the local GM plant. I wanted to be the guy that put the hubcaps on the wheels as they went by me on the assembly line...for $25/hr.

A hub-cap-putter-onner!

[Okla-homey]

That's certainly one interpretation of the bill.

It leaves out the process by which a minority of employees can require that a secret ballot be held for certification.

it also leaves out that the bill implements penalties for some illegal labor practices that anti-union shops are currently able to engage in with no penalty (such as retributive firing.)

Who, pray tell, is going to brief the employees on said secret balloting option if the company isn't even aware union organizers are circulating authorization cards in break rooms, parking lots and neighborhood hang-outs until they hit the magical 50% point? Hmmmm? The union organizer who gets paid for each guy who signs a card? :rolleyes:

[Vaevictis]

(1) This prevents the employer from engaging in campaign shenanigans (good!)
(2) This permits the union to engage in shenanigans during signing campaign (bad!)

And regarding the secret ballot and no pressure from either side -- just because there are precautions against shenanigans doesn't mean that they don't occur. I'm sure they do, from both sides.

And ultimately, I think that the employer is always starting from an advantageous position -- they can jerk around with peoples hours, employment, etc. And yeah, I know, there are supposed to be precautions against this, but I'm sure you know the difficulties involved in enforcement.

After probably-not-enough-thought, I think that the 50% number should probably be raised to say, 2/3, and the union should have the option to call for a campaign/vote if they can't reach that level. That way, if the sentiment is strongly pro-union, then they can skip the campaign. But if it's not, both sides get a shot at swaying the middle.

[Vaevictis]

One thing's for sure, they have put the US automotive industry in the toilet. I know I say this a lot, but its compelling to me, GM spends more on retired employee benefits than it does on steel.

It takes two to tango. GM's/Ford's management didn't have the spine to say, "Go ahead and strike" when it was appropriate to do so.

[yermom]

When growing up, I dreamed of getting a job at the local GM plant. I wanted to be the guy that put the hubcaps on the wheels as they went by me on the assembly line...for $25/hr.

A hub-cap-putter-onner!

i'd need to new dog to kick every night when i got home if all i did was put hubcaps on all day

[Frozen Sooner]

Who, pray tell, is going to brief the employees on said secret balloting option if the company isn't even aware union organizers are circulating authorization cards in break rooms, parking lots and neighborhood hang-outs until they hit the magical 50% point? Hmmmm? The union organizer who gets paid for each guy who signs a card? :rolleyes:

Let's break down the process:

1. Union organizer starts circulating blue cards to all employees.
2. 50%+1 of employees sign blue cards.
3. NLRB certifies union, at which point the employer is required to bargain in good faith with the newly recognized union.
4. At this point, even the most clueless employer is aware that there's a certification movement afoot. You know, supposing that NOT ONE employee has broken silence during the original circulation of cards and let the employer know about it.
5. Yeah, you think the employer isn't going to let his employees know that they can have a new election with secret ballot?


Now let's break down the process as it exists now:

1. Union organizer starts circulating blue cards.
2. 30% of workforce signs blue cards, forcing an NLRB election.
3. Employer begins organizing on-the-clock "informational sessions" which employees are required to attend to smear unions.
4. Employer "randomly" fires someone known to be pro-union. This, by the way, is illegal, but the penalties as currently constituted are so weak as to be non-existent and not worth pursuing.
5. Secret ballot election is held.

[Jerk]

The people up in perry, ok got the idea to unionize Ditchwitch. Mr. Ditchwitch himself said "I'll sell the plant if you do" and it was never brought up again.

[Okla-homey]

Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Look I'm not an economist, but one of the reasons that I oppose free trade agreements (it's not free trade that I am necessarily against, it's the treaty part) is that American labor unions, labor laws, corporate tax rates, environmental laws, labor costs, etc. have made it almost impossible for American labor to compete with cheap third world labor no matter how good our products are.

Paradoxically, I oppose free-trade agreements in large part because of the damage done by labor unions to the free-market which doesn't really make the trade all that free and certainly not fair but it has the effect of putting me on the side of the very people that I blame for the problem.

I go back and forth on it, but I generally come home to the fact that protective tarriffs are bad. I generally think free trade is a good thing. The world is an ever smaller place, and if you believe that competition, even unfair competition from foreign competitors, ends up being a good deal for the consumer in the long run as I do, then you gotta lean toward free trade.
After all, if Detroit had no foreign competition, they would still be making those dismally bad POS's we drove in the 1970's.

I think American labor needs to decide to stop looking backwards and start accepting the fact we are not in the Industrial Age anymore. The days are about over wherein a guy with a HS education can raise a family on his plant wages alone.

IMHO, if this EFCA becomes law, it'll just force more American businesses offshore and thus will be self-defeating.

[Okla-homey]

It takes two to tango. GM's/Ford's management didn't have the spine to say, "Go ahead and strike" when it was appropriate to do so.

well said. point taken.

[Jerk]

When I was 19, I worked for Safeway Groceries. They said after 3 months, I'd have to join a union. I quit before I made it because I thought that they would garnish my meager wages and give it to the Democrat Party.

[AlbqSooner]

I am not pro-union. Having said that, any company that gets a union can look to themselves as the primary reason.

If you treat your employees as fungible goods, they will look to a union to represent them.

If you provide your employees with union level pay and benefits without their having to pay union dues, you will not see them organizing.

[Jerk]

Oh, and I am currently drinking an American craft beer made by union employees. I mean, it's okay, but it ain't all that.

[King Crimson]

Oh, and I am currently drinking an American craft beer made by union employees. I mean, it's okay, but it ain't all that.

jerk=commie

i knew it all along.

[Frozen Sooner]

I am not pro-union. Having said that, any company that gets a union can look to themselves as the primary reason.

If you treat your employees as fungible goods, they will look to a union to represent them.

If you provide your employees with union level pay and benefits without their having to pay union dues, you will not see them organizing.

I am pro-union and agree with this statement 100%.

[Jerk]

I am not pro-union. Having said that, any company that gets a union can look to themselves as the primary reason.

If you treat your employees as fungible goods, they will look to a union to represent them.

If you provide your employees with union level pay and benefits without their having to pay union dues, you will not see them organizing.

I have thought about how to bring in the union where I work. I am not pro-union, but I can't think of a better way to stick a sharp stick up management's a.ss

People who work in offices making decisions about stuff that they know nothing about just perturb me.

[Okla-homey]

I am not pro-union. Having said that, any company that gets a union can look to themselves as the primary reason.

If you treat your employees as fungible goods, they will look to a union to represent them.

If you provide your employees with union level pay and benefits without their having to pay union dues, you will not see them organizing.

Might you be discounting the fact that some silver-tongued union organizer might convince half the folks they can have even more if they sign his card? Remember, we live in the Entitlement Era wherein our "utes" think they deserve stuff just because they are able to fog a mirror. Why else would the Donks be pushing this EFCA?

[OUHOMER]

Its already happened, Look at the old overnight LTL, bought out by UPS.
Now UPS FREIGHT. Overnight fought to keep the union for years and spent millions doing it.

My understanding was UPS let the teamsters in, If they got 50% signed cards there would be no vote. UPS would not contest it at all and boom the were all unionized. It was part of the Master agreement UPS signed with the teamsters when the contract came up for Brown.

One thing to keep in mind the NRLB has strict rules on what the owners/employer can say and do.
the Union guys can say anything they want, they can promise $100.00 bucks an hour and 4 days a week off, paid! because the are not bound by anything because there is no contract in place. Once the contract is OK'd and voted on. The union comes back and said yea will we tried to get the time off and pay.

Its not a fair a deal. no matter how you cut it.

[Okla-homey]

People who work in offices making decisions about stuff that they know nothing about just perturb me.

Even if they know stuff you don't? For example, the fact they may barely make payroll every two weeks?

[Vaevictis]

Might you be discounting the fact that some silver-tongued union organizer might convince half the folks they can have even more if they sign his card? Remember, we live in the Entitlement Era wherein our "utes" think they deserve stuff just because they are able to fog a mirror. Why else would the Donks be pushing this EFCA?

I suppose it's possible that folks just get talked into it, as you suggest.

I think it's far more likely that an employer was doing something wrong in the first place. If people are satisfied with the way things are, their natural inclination is not to rock the boat.

[Okla-homey]

I suppose it's possible that folks just get talked into it, as you suggest.

I think it's far more likely that an employer was doing something wrong in the first place. If people are satisfied with the way things are, their natural inclination is not to rock the boat.

Heck V, I've heard my blue collar kin complain about the fact the guys in management live in big houses and the guys who assemble the widgets live in doublewides. As if that's somehow unjust.

[Vaevictis]

Heck V, I've heard my blue collar kin complain about the fact the guys in management live in big houses and the guys who assemble the widgets live in doublewides. As if that's somehow unjust.

Yeah, you always hear that. You'll also hear how it's unfair that the VP makes $X dollars from the guy below him.

That by itself isn't usually sufficient to result in unionization -- otherwise you'd see unions in a lot of jobs where you don't usually see it.

[Chuck Bao]

Free trade is a separate issue and should probably be discussed in a separate thread.

The best description of what I do, and I can't even quote who said it, is that as a stock market analyst I'm a voyeur into the capitalist system and how money is made and recommend my clients to piggy-back off of that. But, some of the things I see turns my stomach.

I have been in Asia for 22-23 years. I have witnessed first hand the Asian economic miracle and the benefits of free trade and largely union-less Asian manufacturing sector.

I can also say that it isn't all just about cheap products and greed is good.

There needs to be accountability and responsibility. We can't assume that the free market will lead to fair wages for workers, safe and healthy work environments and safe and healthy products.

The recently discovered melamine added to milk products produced by China is a very good example. That's criminal.

China gets so offended everytime the US government criticizes it. But, US consumers don't have to buy their products.

I very much like the idea of consumer advocacy groups steering consumers away from products produced by child labor or unsafe work practices or with questionable products.

I would like to see a US law requiring each product sold in the US to be rated by an independent US consumer advocacy group.

That should help shore up some of the problems with the imbalance of trade and loss of workers' rights.

If not, well, shame on you.

[Chuck Bao]

To add to what I was saying. A rating by one of the US consumer advocacy groups should be required on the label and prominent in big bold numbers ranked from 1 to 10.

Financial products get a rating. Why not consumer products? Okay, I do realize that financial product ratings have recently proven to be a bust, but I still think it could work. It would be better than forcing union membership on US manufacturers, at least in my opinion.

Alright, maybe I should have voted for Ralph Nader.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/PoopDick321/retard.jpg.w300h341.jpg

[soonerboomer93]

When I was 19, I worked for Safeway Groceries. They said after 3 months, I'd have to join a union. I quit before I made it because I thought that they would garnish my meager wages and give it to the Democrat Party.

Last I understood, it's illegal for them to force you to the union. They can require that you pay a certain amount to the union for contract negotion, but they can't make you pay full dues. You will have certain rights, but not the same rights/responsibilities as a full member.

Personally, I don't care for unions based on personal family experiences.

[olevetonahill]

I worked fer a carpet Plant in the early 70s, while I went to School .
They had a Big Union thing , they said Yall Vote Union you will make More Money .
I told em as a young Dumas, Yall Vote union you wont have a Jorb .
6 Months after the Plant went Union . It Closed and Every body was Out of work .
Dont even Get me started On the Time I was a Teamster.:mad:

[Jerk]

Even if they know stuff you don't? For example, the fact they may barely make payroll every two weeks?

I understand what you are saying, but the truck actually makes money for the company. Yeah, it is an Obama-like wealth spreading machine, for me, the stockholders, and the state and federal government's treasuries. I'm not sure if some of the pencil pushers actually 'make' money. They seem to have to find stuff to do in order to justify their salary, like the head safety nazi.

They wanted to govern the trucks at 65 mph to save fuel. I had to call them and explain that the differentials in these trucks are not geared to run efficiently at this speed, and we will be going down a gear when loaded up every hill between Tulsa and OKC, which means high rpm. They call the head mechanic and ask "is this true?" He says yes and the plan was finished. If they would just stick to things that they know about, like business and customers, it would all be good.

But I am spoiled. The last people who I worked for gave me a job and got out of my way. I never heard from them except for one day a year they'd do a 10-minute job review. srsly, the only way I knew that I still worked there was because I kept getting my paycheck.

[Cam]

So I've worked in a factory while the bringing in the union battle was going on. If you think either side doesn't play very, very, very dirty, you've got your head in the sand.

IMO, if this happens, you can kiss whatever manufacturing jobs that still remain in your area goodbye. The first even hint that a union's trying to come in, the shop's going to be moved to Asia or Central America.

[OklahomaTuba]

This isn't 1920. This will devastate the US manufacturing industry.

If this happens in my shop, it will be moved to Mexico so fast it will make our employees shiny new union cards spin so fast they won't know what hit them.

Anyone who claims to be "Pro-Union" has no clue what its like trying to generate revenue in a competitive global market when foreign companies can charge much less for a product/technology of equal or better quality.

But go ahead libz, overturn Right to Work. Who cares if the people voted for it, and people will lose more jobs. As long as it benefits you politically, its OK!

[JohnnyMack]

Tuba, the sooner you realize the powers that be in these corporations don't give a **** about you, the better off you'll be. They care about the bottom line, not you. They'd move the company to Mars if it meant more money.

[OklahomaTuba]

Thats my point.

And that's why a law like this will hurt us, ALOT!

[Jerk]

This isn't 1920. This will devastate the US manufacturing industry.

If this happens in my shop, it will be moved to Mexico so fast it will make our employees shiny new union cards spin so fast they won't know what hit them.

Anyone who claims to be "Pro-Union" has no clue what its like trying to generate revenue in a competitive global market when foreign companies can charge much less for a product/technology of equal or better quality.

But go ahead libz, overturn Right to Work. Who cares if the people voted for it, and people will lose more jobs. As long as it benefits you politically, its OK!

I've never seen so many people collectively planning to one giant sh*t where they eat.

[OklahomaTuba]

Its like these people don't understand how business works in a global market. We have to be an exporter to these emerging markets, not an importer of goods from China. We need to be building the stuff here not driving those jobs off shore.

Making it more expensive to make stuff here is beyond stupid. This gets signed into law, and my shop will be empty and the 100+ people who work there will be at the unemployment office.

But at least they will be in a Union!!

[StoopTroup]

I work for a Union.

Over the last few years our company faced bankruptcy.

Management pleaded with the employees for their help.

The employees made a logical decision....help or see your job disappear. Not only did the employees give up billions in wages and benefits...they also helped management bring in more outside work. In Tulsa...President Boren ,Oklahoma University, who is on the Board of Directors of our Company, told employees that after helping bring in 1/2 a billion dollars in profit of outside work...that employees wouldn't be forgotten once their next contract was up.

It's been 7 months and we aren't even close to seeing our new contract.

Not only that...but...the give backs that employees helped our company with...those were supposedly temporary. Everything we gave back is suddenly up for negotiation.

I knew this was a Union Shop when I hired into it.

I live with it...there's nothing I can do about it that wouldn't risk my Families Future IMO. Management would be absolutely crazy to dismantle what they have in my area. I'm not going to say there aren't areas where they still have labor problems...but my area isn't one of them.

Labor isn't always the problem in many of these Companies.

I can see why some of this legislation has come to pass as the "Right to Work" crap was supposed to be the Republican answer to ending Unions. It has failed. Now it looks like this new stuff by the Dems is designed as a response to the RTW crap.

I don't like this new legislation and I thought RTW was a waste of time too.

If people in labor and management are honest with each other and share in the success...a Company can flourish...even with a Union.

Unions in the past were not the best...maybe they aren't much better now either but I have seen them sit side to side with management and work together for the benefit of Stockholders and employees.

[yermom]

Its like these people don't understand how business works in a global market. We have to be an exporter to these emerging markets, not an importer of goods from China. We need to be building the stuff here not driving those jobs off shore.

Making it more expensive to make stuff here is beyond stupid. This gets signed into law, and my shop will be empty and the 100+ people who work there will be at the unemployment office.

But at least they will be in a Union!!


well, maybe companies should do more to keep their employees happy...

when you are doing things like cutting benefits while management is getting raises, then people start getting unhappy

people don't just magically decide they want to give money to a union

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It's proven beyond proving that monetary compensation does NOT serve to keep labor happy. Period. Hell, I'm just a dumb ol' fireman and I've read a little bit about Abraham Maslow's work. Bump their wages, and given time, even those increased wages will seem insufficient. It's a never ending snowball.

There has to come a time where there is balance.

[bluedogok]

One thing's for sure, they have put the US automotive industry in the toilet. I know I say this a lot, but its compelling to me, GM spends more on retired employee benefits than it does on steel.
I read something in an article one time that seems appropriate, that GM is a retirement/health care company that happens to make cars/trucks.

[OklahomaTuba]

well, maybe companies should do more to keep their employees happy...

If you want to be happy, take a God Damn Prozac.

Its not your employers job to keep you happy. If you don't like what you do, how you are treated or how much your are paid, then leave.

If a company values someone, they will reward them. Cause if that employer doesn't, then some other employer will.

[Vaevictis]

Its not your employers job to keep you happy. If you don't like what you do, how you are treated or how much your are paid, then leave.

Or, do what any other sane person engaging in business would do: Try to negotiate better terms.

That is, after all, the point of a union.

[yermom]

If you want to be happy, take a God Damn Prozac.

Its not your employers job to keep you happy. If you don't like what you do, how you are treated or how much your are paid, then leave.

If a company values someone, they will reward them. Cause if that employer doesn't, then some other employer will.

quit my job and take a Prozac

that sounds like it should solve all my problems

[sooneron]

One thing's for sure, they have put the US automotive industry in the toilet. I know I say this a lot, but its compelling to me, GM spends more on retired employee benefits than it does on steel.

Are toyota's plants in the US non union? nm, answered

GM is in the toilet largely because they had fools running the place for decades. Couple that with costs due to a union and you have disaster a brief lockout would have worked wonders for their bargaining. Would GM be in the ****ter today had they continued with the electric car? Keep in mind, that was years ago. Imagine how many more customers would have run out and bought them after the gas increase following Katrina. They went for the guzzlers and the short money (what little there was of it). FOOLS. The sad thing is, the average worker is more ****ed than the losers that were calling the shots. They have the parachutes.
I type this fully realizing that the course of the unions in this country have pretty much run their course. They serve little purpose any more.

[bluedogok]

Much of business shortsightedness is driven by the same shortsightedness by investors in only caring about the short term and having no interest in long term health and viability. Most of management has been put into a position of sacrificing long term for the short term because of this or else they lose their jobs (but still get those pretty golden parachutes) because of shareholder pressure to "gain" every quarter whether it makes prudent fiscal sense or not. This affects both union and non-union companies and has driven much of the off-shoring that has happened. Companies, investors, employees and unions (along with the gov't) needs to realize that we are all interconnected and at some point our consumption based economy will not allow for all of the "good jobs" constantly being sent overseas and leaving people here with much lower paying jobs because there won't be enough people around to buy everything to keep driving the economy. It is just impossible to maintain what is in effect a double standard, to many companies are operated like they have no other effect on the economy. It is thinking that MY company can send those jobs overseas putting thousands into the unemployment cycle but everyone else must keep buying my products.

EVERYONE in this country is defendant upon good paying jobs to keep the economy in its current configuration going, that is what Keynesian/consumption economics are based on. Our ENTIRE financial world has been afflicted with this sickness and is in need of fundamental change in the philosophy of investing.

[TUSooner]

Bad.