Perhaps the biggest thing to happen to downtown OKC since MAPS...

[BigRedJed]

...is about to happen. And no, I'm not talking about the Thunder. I'm not talking about Devon Tower either. Well, not exactly. The changes look like they will be stunning, and will perhaps render the current downtown nearly unrecognizable. Ron Norick, the father of MAPS, is calling them "mind boggling."

Sorry to be such a tease. Read the paper tomorrow, or perhaps it will be posted online later tonight.

[Jerk]

I have been meaning to ask you if there are any more super-tall buildings planned besides the Devon tower.

Also, do you think that if oil prices keep falling, said tower will still be built?

eta - there is a rumor going around that the "other" large energy company in OKC is done for.

[SicEmBaylor]

I have been meaning to ask you if there are any more super-tall buildings planned besides the Devon tower.

Also, do you think that if oil prices keep falling, said tower will still be built?

eta - there is a rumor going around that the "other" large energy company in OKC is done for.

Chesapeake?

[Jerk]

Chesapeake?

How dare you say that about such a well-managed company!

[picasso]

Hooters is expanding!

[picasso]

Hooters are expanding!

:eek:

[BigRedJed]

I have been meaning to ask you if there are any more super-tall buildings planned besides the Devon tower.

Also, do you think that if oil prices keep falling, said tower will still be built?

eta - there is a rumor going around that the "other" large energy company in OKC is done for.
I don't think any more super-tall buildings are on the horizon, but I from what I hear there are multiple high rises in the planning stages right now. One is supposedly pretty solid, a couple of others are potentials. I think most new high rise development will be residential, for time being at least. The movement of Devon to their new tower will unload a lot of class A-ish space (there are people who would tell you that right now Leadership is the only true class A downtown) on the market. Class A space is actually really tight right now.

Most of the downtown vacancy is class C. But Devon's move will put a ton of good space back on the market, so new speculative A space would be pretty risky right now.

As for whether the tower will be built even with falling energy prices, everything I have heard says yes. Devon is planning to build that building with cash, and they are projecting their needs and other plans based on long-range, conservative plans which take into account typical fluctuations in all markets. I think the tower gets built, even if oil keeps dropping. Keep in mind that Devon is the only significant energy company that weathered the bust of the late 80s, early 90s without a single layoff, something they're really proud of.

Regarding Chesapeake, whoever said they are done for must not have read today's financial reports (Google News (http://news.google.com/news?q=chesapeake%20energy%20quarter&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7DMUS&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn)), which is loving all over them. They posted an unexpectedly healthy quarterly profit due to some hedging, which is causing their stock price to rebound. I'm no stock market expert, but it looks like good news for them.

[OUHOMER]

:pop: By the way BRJ, I can not believe you wont give your friends a hint. We wont tell anybody;)

[Flagstaffsooner]

And one of these Downtown when Obama is POTUS.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Lenin_statue_Osh.jpg

[Jerk]

And one of these Downtown when Obama is POTUS.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Lenin_statue_Osh.jpg

It wouldn't last a day around here.

[BigRedJed]

Geez, does every thread on here have to get this political crapping-on?

[royalfan5]

Geez, does every thread on here have to get this political crapping-on?
You missed that part in the SO Orientation Packet?

[BigRedJed]

I just miss the days when we could talk about more than one subject on here, I guess.

[BigRedJed]

Oops. I'm sorry. We can still talk about SicEm's fail. Make that two subjects.

[Beef]

The rumors aren't true. Unfortunately, I'm not moving to OKC.

[soonerhubs]

The rumors aren't true. Unfortunately, I'm not moving to OKC.

Well, then I'm canceling the Hubler tower.

[Harry Beanbag]

I just miss the days when we could talk about more than one subject on here, I guess.

Was that when we had a politics forum?

[OUHOMER]

I think BRJ is making this up, so lets speculate.

Umm, maybe the biggest casino in the world is going to be built in OKC.

[bluedogok]

It's not just BRJ with the news........Steve Lackmeyer has been teasing this all day on his blog (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2008/10/31/final-tease-for-now/).

[Okla-homey]

a 740' tall statue of the Saviour of Humanity, St. Barack?

[KC//CRIMSON]

Geez, does every thread on here have to get this political crapping-on?


They can't help themselves, they're in pre-meltdown mode.

[BigRedJed]

Was that when we had a politics forum?
Crap, apparently this IS the politics forum. And before somebody says "if you don't like all of the politics, start a thread about something else..." THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS DOING!!

:mad:

[Jerk]

They can't help themselves, they're in pre-meltdown mode.

Nah, we're expected to lose. Everyone says it's over. I don't even know why we should even bother voting, do you?

[BigRedJed]

:les: WE'RE GONNA HAVE NEW SIDEWALKS!!!

[BigRedJed]

:les: AND LANDSCAPING!!

[BigRedJed]

:les: AND AMENITIES!!!

[OUHOMER]

how about public rest rooms??????????????

[BigRedJed]

:les: THEY'LL BE IN THE IMPROVED MYRIAD BOTANICAL GARDENS!!

[BigRedJed]

:les: AND THE NEW DOWNTOWN PUBLIC SCHOOL(S), PAID FOR INDIRECTLY BY DEVON!!

[BigRedJed]

Seriously, though, the expectation was that Devon would come to the Tax Increment Finance board and ask for public money to help fund some of the stuff in their planned development. That is very standard when a company is making a big investment in downtown. For instance, they might ask for TIF funds to build a contiguous parking garage. It is the reason the TIF exists; to lure quality large-scale projects.

Instead, Devon announced that they will build their entire development with private money (cash, no less). The whole development is now expected to run close to $900 million. In exchange, all they are asking is that the new property tax assessments that come from their building and other investments be earmarked to fix up all of downtown. It's huge. To the tune of $135 million huge. And that is a conservative estimate.

[Sooner_Havok]

Need to redo the Myriad again. That place sucks. Maybe it's cause I got used to the Ford Center, but when they had a Blazers over there a year or two ago, I realized how bad it still is. Hell a new coat of paint and some not orange chairs would go a long way.

[OUHOMER]

Seriously, though, the expectation was that Devon would come to the Tax Increment Finance board and ask for public money to help fund some of the stuff in their planned development. That is very standard when a company is making a big investment in downtown. For instance, they might ask for TIF funds to build a contiguous parking garage. It is the reason the TIF exists; to lure quality large-scale projects.

Instead, Devon announced that they will build their entire development with private money (cash, no less). The whole development is now expected to run close to $900 million. In exchange, all they are asking is that the new property tax assessments that come from their building and other investments be earmarked to fix up all of downtown. It's huge. To the tune of $135 million huge. And that is a conservative estimate.

I am assuming this is Oklahoma County taxes that would be ear marked? So this would be a forever type deal. I assume all properties are assessed each year? or is the 135 million the expected taxes over the life of the property?

I don't ****, so I am just wondering:eek:

[OklahomaTuba]

Is it Mangino's birthday Dinner???

[Taxman71]

Anything that will steal corporate HQ from the DFW Metroplex and relocate them here will suffice.

[BigRedJed]

I am assuming this is Oklahoma County taxes that would be ear marked? So this would be a forever type deal. I assume all properties are assessed each year? or is the 135 million the expected taxes over the life of the property?

I don't ****, so I am just wondering:eek:
The $135 million is a conservative estimate for how much in NEW property taxes that project will generate over the next 20 years. They can use that number as security against bond sales.

The people who have to sign off on a TIF include the county and the schools, since they are agreeing to forego any new revenue off of those properties resulting from their development. TIF is generally done with very specific geographic boundaries.

With a TIF, they set a base line of "here's how much we get in assessments on that property right now," and that amount is then guaranteed to the county and the schools. Any additional money (which is generated when the property is improved and re-assessed), is then put into the TIF, which is specifically used for incentivizing new development in a defined geographical area.

It is a popular tool for developing downtown areas. The difference is that TIF dollars are often used to lure new businesses by, for instance, building them a parking garage (Legacy Summit at Arts Central apartments and attached retail), a building (Bass Pro Shops) or other improvements.

The thing that is so remarkable about this is that Devon didn't ask for a cent of those types of inducements from the existing TIF. Instead, they are asking for a creation of a new TIF encomapassing their property and that the funds captured would benefit the entire community (specifically downtown, but by extension everybody), not just Devon.

[sooner_born_1960]

A downtown school(s)? This idea is terrible.

[BigRedJed]

Need to redo the Myriad again. That place sucks. Maybe it's cause I got used to the Ford Center, but when they had a Blazers over there a year or two ago, I realized how bad it still is. Hell a new coat of paint and some not orange chairs would go a long way.
Some of that is already planned, and some might potentially be a part of MAPS 3. It would not be a part of this TIF. They aren't going to spend a huge amount of money on the Cox Center until they decide what part that site might play in the development of a new conference/convention center and hotel. It's possible that it could be demolished to make way for something like that, although that doesn't seem likely. The Cox Center has proven to have considerable value in attracting events like the Big 12 men's and women's basketball tourney, plus provides an alternate venue for the Ford Center, as its event night schedule fills up.

[BigRedJed]

A downtown school(s)? This idea is terrible.
Really?

[BigRedJed]

I'm interested in hearing why it's a bad idea, SB60.

[sooner_born_1960]

For one thing, I feel schools should be in the neighborhoods where the people live. We are a long way from having the downtown, school-aged population to justify a school.

[BigRedJed]

Yeah, I understand that. I think it's a chicken-or-the-egg thing there. The reason we don't have a downtown, school-aged population is because very few parents want to move downtown and entrust their childern to the OKC school district and the schools that currently serve downtown. That's why so many families go to suburban school districts, which in turn costs OKC property taxes (benefitting schools) and sales taxes (general fund).

Building a world-class downtown school opens up downtown and near-downtown as a viable alternative for parents. In fact, since parents have proven for years that they will move to wherever the best school is, if the best public school in the state is in the heart of OKC, downtown and near-downtown residential should see explosive growth.

I think Devon's motivation could also be related to recruiting new employees. They are trying to create a lifestyle that they can sell to potential employees which includes living close to the office and not having to move to the 'burbs once they have kids. It's also an amenity that could help lure other companies downtown, since they could offer the same lifestyle to THIER employees.

[sooneron]

If they were smart, they'd make it a magnet school, like Bronx Science or Stuyvessant.

Of course, I'm talking fancy NYC schools on a Sooner board. :D

That seems to make more sense that trying to "build a district".

[sooneron]

Wait a minute, the announcement was the earmarks? LAME!!!

I thought they were moving hills and trees in!

[Stoop Dawg]

Yeah, I understand that. I think it's a chicken-or-the-egg thing there. The reason we don't have a downtown, school-aged population is because very few parents want to move downtown and entrust their childern to the OKC school district and the schools that currently serve downtown. That's why so many families go to suburban school districts, which in turn costs OKC property taxes (benefitting schools) and sales taxes (general fund).

Building a world-class downtown school opens up downtown and near-downtown as a viable alternative for parents. In fact, since parents have proven for years that they will move to wherever the best school is, if the best public school in the state is in the heart of OKC, downtown and near-downtown residential should see explosive growth.

I think Devon's motivation could also be related to recruiting new employees. They are trying to create a lifestyle that they can sell to potential employees which includes living close to the office and not having to move to the 'burbs once they have kids. It's also an amenity that could help lure other companies downtown, since they could offer the same lifestyle to THIER employees.

I'm no city planner, but I did play SimCity for several years!!

I agree with BRJ. If you want to draw business downtown then you need people to live downtown and quality schools are absolutely necessary to promote that. Your other option is to have people commute downtown, but OKC doesn't have the capacity for large numbers of people to commute from the burbs. OKC will either have to build more roads downtown or try a light rail system like Dallas. FWIW, I'm not particularly fond of the DART and Dallas is now going to build a FOURTH major highway to alleviate traffic problems in the downtown area.

It appears to me that getting people to live downtown instead of commute downtown is the winning plan. They should tear down some of that crap around the HSC and put affordable housing there. That's a great location.

[Fraggle145]

I'm no city planner, but I did play SimCity for several years!!

I agree with BRJ. If you want to draw business downtown then you need people to live downtown and quality schools are absolutely necessary to promote that. Your other option is to have people commute downtown, but OKC doesn't have the capacity for large numbers of people to commute from the burbs. OKC will either have to build more roads downtown or try a light rail system like Dallas. FWIW, I'm not particularly fond of the DART and Dallas is now going to build a FOURTH major highway to alleviate traffic problems in the downtown area.

It appears to me that getting people to live downtown instead of commute downtown is the winning plan. They should tear down some of that crap around the HSC and put affordable housing there. That's a great location.


I'd be a big fan of light rail from OKC to Norman. I would be able to go up there more often then. Hell I wish it ran from OKC to Ardvegas. If you do it early its not as big of a problem to put it in later as an afterthought. Like what has happened in Dallas and Atlanta.

[BigRedJed]

If they were smart, they'd make it a magnet school, like Bronx Science or Stuyvessant.

Of course, I'm talking fancy NYC schools on a Sooner board. :D

That seems to make more sense that trying to "build a district".
Believe it or not, we have magnet schools here, too. Have for years. Classen School of Advanced Studies is an example. Grades 6-12 with a fine arts focus. Very successful.

I suspect any school they build downtown will be a magnet school so that it will attract lots of quality students right out of the box despite the small size of the downtown population. It would turn OKC education on its ear to have the most sought-after public school located in the center of the city.

[BigRedJed]

FWIW, this year Classen School of Advanced Studies was ranked 41st best (http://www.newsweek.com/id/39380/?sort=Rank&count=1236&start=0&limit=100&year=2006&Search=undefined) public high school in America by Newsweek. It's been in the top 100 every year since 2005.

[Big Red Ron]

Mrs. Big Red Ron is in Corporate Communications at Chesapeake and they aren't going anywhere but up.

I think it sucks that they are building a campus instead of a downtown tower but hey they are 20% of the reason we have the Thunder, so its all good. ;)

[Stoop Dawg]

One other knock on Dallas city planners: Dallas would have a pretty impressive downtown if the big businesses located in Dallas had offices downtown. As it is, many of the large companies are spread out around the 635 corridor and/or suburbs.

Urban. Sprawl.

I guess it's not so much a "knock" - just an observation.

[Sooner_Havok]

Some of that is already planned, and some might potentially be a part of MAPS 3. It would not be a part of this TIF. They aren't going to spend a huge amount of money on the Cox Center until they decide what part that site might play in the development of a new conference/convention center and hotel. It's possible that it could be demolished to make way for something like that, although that doesn't seem likely. The Cox Center has proven to have considerable value in attracting events like the Big 12 men's and women's basketball tourney, plus provides an alternate venue for the Ford Center, as its event night schedule fills up.

Good, place sucks on the arena front. Looks alright from the outside, but the arena is teh suck

[Okla-homey]

I think Devon's motivation could also be related to recruiting new employees. They are trying to create a lifestyle that they can sell to potential employees which includes living close to the office and not having to move to the 'burbs once they have kids. It's also an amenity that could help lure other companies downtown, since they could offer the same lifestyle to THIER employees.

Here's a thought. Build a hellagood private school for company kids and include tuition as part of the benefit package. Recruit teachers and attract them by paying them energy sector salaries for comparable education and experience. Now that, would get people's attention. Not contributions to a busted urban public school system with systemic problems that an infusion of cash can't fix.

[Soonrboy]

FWIW, this year Classen School of Advanced Studies was ranked 41st best (http://www.newsweek.com/id/39380/?sort=Rank&count=1236&start=0&limit=100&year=2006&Search=undefined) public high school in America by Newsweek. It's been in the top 100 every year since 2005.

My boy goes there!

[Sooner_Havok]

My boy goes there!

Yeah, my lady went there. Whenever I bitch about going to public schools she chimes in with the "Yeah, I know"

I tell her to STFU! Classen SAS is NOT a real public school. They didn't have text books referring to the civil rights movement as "trouble ahead" :D

[Soonrboy]

Here's a thought. Build a hellagood private school for company kids and include tuition as part of the benefit package. Recruit teachers and attract them by paying them energy sector salaries for comparable education and experience. Now that, would get people's attention. Not contributions to a busted urban public school system with systemic problems that an infusion of cash can't fix.

Why not keep it public...not charge anyone tuition..and the company can still donate money/time/etc? It doesn't have to go into one pile and everyone share the gift equally.

[Petro-Sooner]

Sandridge is in the middle of moving into the newly renovated Kerr McGee building.............

[StoopTroup]

Here's a thought. Build a hellagood private school for company kids and include tuition as part of the benefit package. Recruit teachers and attract them by paying them energy sector salaries for comparable education and experience. Now that, would get people's attention. Not contributions to a busted urban public school system with systemic problems that an infusion of cash can't fix.

I'd put my Wife's resume in...heck...maybe even mine too.

Throw in 4 seats in a Sooner Box....and I'll even work hard. :D

[Frozen Sooner]

They should open a Harvey Milk school in downtown OKC. Dean would finish his high school diploma ASAP.

:D

[Sooner_Havok]

Why not keep it public...not charge anyone tuition..and the company can still donate money/time/etc? It doesn't have to go into one pile and everyone share the gift equally.

Cause then they would have to go the Classen SAS route and make it a magnet school. Then it wouldn't be a guarantee that their kids could get into it.

[Soonrboy]

Cause then they would have to go the Classen SAS route and make it a magnet school. Then it wouldn't be a guarantee that their kids could get into it.

No. There are schools that have been "adopted" by businesss, etc. and aren't magnet schools. Linwood and Horace Mann Elementary are a couple of good examples.

[Okla-homey]

Why not keep it public...not charge anyone tuition..and the company can still donate money/time/etc? It doesn't have to go into one pile and everyone share the gift equally.


because is its private, it doesn't have to bother with all that NCLB silliness and various other onerous state regulations.;)

The main reason is if they went private, they could hire precisely the teachers they want, and pay them what they deserve, whether they are "certified educators" or not.

And they would be able to avoid the drama and fire the ones who ain't gettin' it done without having to square off against the OEA and the State Dept. of Education. In short, teacher "at will" employment. Just like the private sector in this state.

[Viking Kitten]

But the whole point of using TIF money is to create public amenities everyone can take advantage of, not just Devon employees, thus making the area a magnet for other businesses. I suppose Devon could launch a private school for employees if they wanted to, using their own funds. But why? Using TIF money to build a good public school seems like a win-win for everyboy.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

But the whole point of using TIF money is to create public amenities everyone can take advantage of, not just Devon employees, thus making the area a magnet for other businesses. I suppose Devon could launch a private school for employees if they wanted to, using their own funds. But why? Using TIF money to build a good public school seems like a win-win for everyboy.

Exactly. Makes them a very good corporate citizen.

[BigRedJed]

Seems like private companies getting directly involved in fixing the public school system, without asking for new funding from John Q. Taxpayer, is EXACTLY what the public education system needs, Homey. I'm not sure why you're objecting to it. Ignoring the public school system isn't going to make it any better, nor will it make it go away. In fact, ignoring it for the past 30 years is exactly why it's as bad as it is. Which is why over the past few years OKC has begun treating it like a business, and installing corporate executives as board presidents (Cliff Hudson, Sonic CEO, followed by Kirk Humpheys, developer and former Mayor).

And you're right; not every school has to be spent on equally. Just like others on here are right; for years various public schools have been "adopted" by OKC corporations, and have seen remarkable results.

The goal here would be to have a public school supported by a local corporation, which would become the equal of suburban public schools and be a draw for individuals and relocating companies. I honestly can't see where that would be a problem for anyone, but of course nothing is ever agreed upon by 100% of the public.

[Lott's Bandana]

I don't think I am stupid person, but I cannot really pull from this thread what the fundamental point of it is, all the talk about corporate v. public funding, etc....can someone Cliff Notes what the "biggest thing" is going to be?

TYVMIA

[sooneron]

Believe it or not, we have magnet schools here, too. Have for years. Classen School of Advanced Studies is an example. Grades 6-12 with a fine arts focus. Very successful.

I suspect any school they build downtown will be a magnet school so that it will attract lots of quality students right out of the box despite the small size of the downtown population. It would turn OKC education on its ear to have the most sought-after public school located in the center of the city.

I knew there were magnet schools. Just not sure which schools were magnet.

[BigRedJed]

Cliff's notes:

Big company doesn't ask for any of the standard inducements other companies almost always ask for when building a huge project.
Instead of asking for new property tax dollars generated from their new development go towards something that benefits them directly (again, SOP for this type of thing), big company asks for dollars to be used in a way that benefits entire community and possibly brings new jobs and people to town.
Said tax dollars conservatively calculated to fund downtown improvements totalling around $135 million, more than 1/3 of what was spent on all MAPS projects combined.

[soonerboomer93]

I'd be a big fan of light rail from OKC to Norman. I would be able to go up there more often then. Hell I wish it ran from OKC to Ardvegas. If you do it early its not as big of a problem to put it in later as an afterthought. Like what has happened in Dallas and Atlanta.

Denver's been doing a pretty good job putting in light rail. It was an after though there, but after the first line was ran it took quite a while before they started the expansion. Last time I rode it from the burbs to down by the Auraria Campus area it was pleasant.

[Boomer_Sooner_sax]

Did I miss something? What was the big news for downtown or was it a new school? *lost*

[BigRedJed]

The big news is that $135 million+ is going to be spent on downtown sidewalks, streets, lighting, landscaping, public art, Myriad Botanical Gardens renovations, (a) potential school(s), and other improvements. All $135 million+ will be coming from a Tax Increment Finance district which captures new dollars generated by Devon's new corporate headquarters and ancillary development, and will cost John Q. Public nothing.

[Boomer_Sooner_sax]

The big news is that $135 million+ is going to be spent on downtown sidewalks, streets, lighting, landscaping, public art, Myriad Botanical Gardens renovations, (a) potential school(s), and other improvements. All $135 million+ will be coming from a Tax Increment Finance district which captures new dollars generated by Devon's new corporate headquarters and ancillary development, and will cost John Q. Public nothing.

Awesome!! That is good news. Thanks BRJ! I am excited about downtown OKC. I have a picture of it I took on my desk at work and people always ask me where it is from. I am always proud to tell them it is my hometown! I hope Devon brings in more high paying jobs to OKC so I can come back home!