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Chuck Bao
10/26/2008, 01:29 AM
I want everyone to take a critical view without political affiliations when answering these questions.

Do you think this type of “letter from the future” scare tactic is effective?

Do you think the internet and email (whether responsible or irresponsible) is affecting public perceptions?

Do you think this type of election campaigning is setting a precedent and that all future elections will be increasingly prone to slander and unsubstantiated allegations spread over the internet?

How much leeway should be given to freedom of speech?

How do you think this following news story is being interpreted by the general populations in overseas countries? In Russia? In Eastern Europe? In the Middle East? And, when answering this question rest assured that it is being translated and quoted in international newspapers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27369927/


Christian right intensifies attacks on Obama

Conservative activists escalate 'doom and gloom' rhetoric as Nov. 4 nears

Terrorist strikes on four American cities. Russia rolling into Eastern Europe. Israel hit by a nuclear bomb. Gay marriage in every state. The end of the Boy Scouts.

All are plausible scenarios if Democrat Barack Obama is elected president, according to a new addition to the campaign conversation called "Letter from 2012 in Obama's America," produced by the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family Action.

The imagined look into the future is part of an escalation in rhetoric from Christian right activists who are trying to paint Obama in the worst possible terms as the campaign heads into the final stretch and polls show the Democrat ahead.

Although hard-edge attacks are common late in campaigns, the tenor of the strikes against Obama illustrate just how worried conservative Christian activists are about what should happen to their causes and influence if Democrats seize control of both Congress and the White House.

'Smells like desperation'
"It looks like, walks like, talks like and smells like desperation to me," said the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell of Houston, an Obama supporter who backed President Bush in the past two elections. The Methodist pastor called the 2012 letter "false and ridiculous." He said it showed that some Christian conservative leaders fear that Obama's faith-based appeals to voters are working.

Like other political advocacy groups, Christian right groups often raise worries about an election's consequences to mobilize voters. In the early 1980s, for example, direct mail from the Moral Majority warned that Congress would turn a blind eye to "smut peddlers" dangling pornography to children.

"Everyone uses fear in the last part of a campaign, but evangelicals are especially theologically prone to those sorts of arguments," said Clyde Wilcox, a Georgetown University political scientist. "There's a long tradition of predicting doom and gloom."

But the tone this election year is sharper than usual and the volume has turned up as Nov. 4 nears.

Steve Strang, publisher of Charisma magazine, a Pentecostal publication, titled one of his recent weekly e-mails to readers, "Life As We Know It Will End If Obama is Elected."

Strang said gay rights and abortion rights would be strengthened in an Obama administration, taxes would rise and "people who hate Christianity will be emboldened to attack our freedoms."

Separately, a group called the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission has posted a series of videos on its site and on YouTube called "7 Reasons Barack Obama is not a Christian."

The commission accuses Obama of "subtle diabolical deceit" in saying he is Christian, while he believes that people can be saved through other faiths.

But among the strongest pieces this year is Focus on the Family Action's letter which has been posted on the group's Web site and making the e-mail rounds. Signed by "A Christian from 2012," it claims a series of events could logically happen based on the group's interpretation of Obama's record, Democratic Party positions, recent court rulings and other trends.

Among the claims:

A 6-3 liberal majority Supreme Court that results in rulings like one making gay marriage the law of the land and another forcing the Boy Scouts to "hire homosexual scoutmasters and allow them to sleep in tents with young boys." (In the imagined scenario, The Boy Scouts choose to disband rather than obey).

A series of domestic and international disasters based on Obama's "reluctance to send troops overseas." That includes terrorist attacks on U.S. soil that kill hundreds, Russia occupying the Baltic states and Eastern European countries including Poland and the Czech Republic, and al-Qaida overwhelming Iraq.

Nationalized health care with long lines for surgery and no access to hospitals for people over 80.

The goal was to "articulate the big picture," said Carrie Gordon Earll, senior director of public policy for Focus on the Family Action. "If it is a doomsday picture, then it's a realistic picture," she said.

Obama favors abortion rights and supports civil unions for same-sex couples, but says states should make their own decisions about marriage. He said he would intensify diplomatic pressure on Iran over its nuclear ambitions and add troops in Afghanistan.

On taxes, Obama has proposed an increase on the 5 percent of taxpayers who make more than $250,000 a year and advocates cuts for those who make less. His health care plan calls for the government to subsidize coverage for millions of Americans who otherwise couldn't afford it.

One of the clear targets of this latest conservative Christian push against the Democrat is younger evangelicals who might be considering him. The letter posits that young evangelicals provide the margin that let Obama defeat John McCain. But Margaret Feinberg, a Denver-area evangelical author, predicted failure.

"Young evangelicals are tired — like most people at this point in the election — and rhetoric which is fear-based, strong-arms the listener, and states opinion as fact will only polarize rather than further the informed, balanced discussion that younger voters are hungry for," she said.

Last-minute push?
In an interview, Strang said there are fewer state ballot measures to motivate conservative voters this election year and that the financial meltdown is distracting some voters from the abortion issue. But he said a last-minute push by conservative Christians in 2004 was key to Bush's re-election and predicted they could play the same role in 2008.

Kim Conger, a political scientist at Iowa State University, said a late push for evangelical voters did help Bush in 2004, "but it is a very different thing than getting people excited about John McCain," even with Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his vice presidential pick.

Phil Burress, head of the Ohio-based Citizens for Community Values, said the dynamics were quite different in 2004, when conservative Christians spent some energy calling Democrat John Kerry a flip-flopper but were mostly motivated by enthusiasm for George W. Bush.

Now, there is less excitement about McCain than fear of an Obama presidency, Burress said.

"This reminds me of when I was a school kid, when I had to go out in the hall and bury my head in my hands because of the atom bomb," he said.

85Sooner
10/26/2008, 03:29 PM
IMO its not much different from what I have heard in politics since the 70's There is just more of it from more parties.

I remember how grandma was going to lose her SS and be forced to eat dogfood.

LosAngelesSooner
10/26/2008, 04:26 PM
4 major US cities? How did they come up with the number 4?

INT: Crazy Evangelical Fear Propaganda War Room - Day

Two extremely white, clearly fat and undersexed, writers sit at a table in a stark white room. The computer HUMS with anticipation.

Writer #1 takes a sip from his mug and jabs a finger at the screen, angrily.


Writer #1
The Soviets will invade Eastern Europe again. Dogs and Cats will sleep together. There will be terrorist attacks in THREE major US cities!

Writer #2
No. Don't you get it? Three isn't enough. It doesn't have enough 'Fear Zazz' to really get the message across. We need more.

Writer #1
Four, then?

Writer #2
Now you're talking. Four is perfect.

Writer #1
Well, if more is better, why not five or six major US cities?

Writer #2
Shush. Now you're just being silly.

Writer #1
Good point. Well, is that all?

Writer #2
Hardly. We're missing the biggest one.

Writer #1
Which is?

Writer #2
The Boy Scouts.
(beat)
They're all GONE.


Their eyes meet in horror, realizing the truth. Writer #1 wraps his arms around Writer #2 and they hold each other close, wishing the fear away...

...and hoping their wives don't finish making dinner and come down in the basement.

Chuck Bao
10/26/2008, 04:49 PM
4 major US cities? How did they come up with the number 4?

INT: Crazy Evangelical Fear Propaganda War Room - Day

Two extremely white, clearly fat and undersexed, writers sit at a table in a stark white room. The computer HUMS with anticipation.

Writer #1 takes a sip from his mug and jabs a finger at the screen, angrily.


Writer #1
The Soviets will invade Eastern Europe again. Dogs and Cats will sleep together. There will be terrorist attacks in THREE major US cities!

Writer #2
No. Don't you get it? Three isn't enough. It doesn't have enough 'Fear Zazz' to really get the message across. We need more.

Writer #1
Four, then?

Writer #2
Now you're talking. Four is perfect.

Writer #1
Well, if more is better, why not five or six major US cities?

Writer #2
Shush. Now you're just being silly.

Writer #1
Good point. Well, is that all?

Writer #2
Hardly. We're missing the biggest one.

Writer #1
Which is?

Writer #2
The Boy Scouts. They're all GONE.


Their eyes meet in horror, realizing the truth. Writer #1 wraps his arms around Writer #2 and they hold each other close, wishing the fear away...

...and hoping their wives don't finish making dinner and come in the basement.




Heh!

I think there will eventually be a tie-in with the four horsemen.

The Boy Scouts were taken in the rapture, as they've always been prepared.

This will be like the "Left Behind" series.

If someone gets these emails, hook me up.

picasso
10/26/2008, 08:15 PM
you mean like all of the "Bush is going to reinstate the draft" emails I received in '04? how about the current "Palin is going to attack our sovereignty" mailings from my Native American friends?

:P

def_lazer_fc
10/26/2008, 09:05 PM
end of the boy scouts. heh.

Rogue
10/26/2008, 09:28 PM
Do you think this type of “letter from the future” scare tactic is effective?

Unfortunately, yes. My sweet Mother and several of the people I work with are sure that one candidate is the devil and the other a terr'ist. Or are both devils? I can't keep up.


Do you think the internet and email (whether responsible or irresponsible) is affecting public perceptions?
Yes, some get informed and some get misinformed.
Same as radio, magazines, chatty neighbors, what have you.


Do you think this type of election campaigning is setting a precedent and that all future elections will be increasingly prone to slander and unsubstantiated allegations spread over the internet?
Yes.


How much leeway should be given to freedom of speech?

Leeway? Loooooots of leeway. Lots.




How do you think this following news story is being interpreted by the general populations in overseas countries? In Russia? In Eastern Europe? In the Middle East?

I have no idea. Probably about like it is here. With mixed reviews depending on the intention of the interpreter.


:gary:

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 06:36 AM
This is scarier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

85Sooner
10/27/2008, 06:59 AM
This is scarier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

Don't do that. WE don't care about the facts.

Chuck Bao
10/27/2008, 09:16 AM
Don't do that. WE don't care about the facts.

Apparently, you don't care about the facts, but some people do.

Let's ignore two years of campaign speeches and party platform and all that.

This radio interview when Obama was a university law lecturer and state legislator reveals exactly what?

What he said isn't scary to me...well, compared to a political campaign that has no ideas and has to resort to mud slinging and name calling.

Widescreen
10/27/2008, 09:21 AM
Remember how in the last 8 years the Republicans took away old people's social security? And how Bush's tax cuts were only a tax cut for the rich? Remember that? :rolleyes:

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 09:25 AM
This radio interview when Obama was a university law lecturer and state legislator reveals exactly what?



C'mon Chuck, you're smarter than that. Nothing much; except his unvarnished worldview, one, I might add he shares with "Rev" Wright and that ilk, shared before he was forced to temper his speech based on being involved in a national political campaign.

Chuck Bao
10/27/2008, 09:38 AM
I am smarter than that and hopefully you are too!

It's just so funny that you claim to have Obama's unvarnished worldview from an edited radio interview from seven years ago.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 10:50 AM
I am smarter than that and hopefully you are too!

It's just so funny that you claim to have Obama's unvarnished worldview from an edited radio interview from seven years ago.

so, he didn't say those things? Is this like the celebrity who tapes a home video while doing a minor who later claims, "but that's not me!" You BHO Kool-Aid drinkers are a riot.

sooner_born_1960
10/27/2008, 10:55 AM
so, he didn't say those things? Is this like the celebrity who tapes a home video while doing a minor who later claims, "but that's not me!" You BHO Kool-Aid drinkers are a riot.
Define "Is".

Chuck Bao
10/27/2008, 11:06 AM
I am no kool-aid drinking fool.

Obama said exactly what?

Weath redistribution is a goal of every capitalist country. Please name one capitalistic country that doesn't have wealth redistribution in some form.

Don't be silly and try to paint this black and white. You can do better than that.

85Sooner
10/27/2008, 11:10 AM
Apparently, you don't care about the facts, but some people do.

Let's ignore two years of campaign speeches and party platform and all that.

This radio interview when Obama was a university law lecturer and state legislator reveals exactly what?

What he said isn't scary to me...well, compared to a political campaign that has no ideas and has to resort to mud slinging and name calling.

I can understand why you wouldn't care about his marxist position and would consider bringing up his relationship with 1.Rezco,(a criminal whom he benefited from) or 2.Wright( a racist so called minister that he said was his spiritual leader for 20 years) or 3.Ayers, (his terrorist partner in education molding) as well as his own words of redistributing the wealth. "MUDSLINGING"

Come on now :cool:

Widescreen
10/27/2008, 11:15 AM
Weath redistribution is a goal of every capitalist country.
Really? I thought capitalism was about wealth creation, not wealth redistribution.

OklaPony
10/27/2008, 11:20 AM
Wealth redistribution is a goal of every capitalist country.

Ummm... wow. I'd love to know the source for this little gem.

I can't speak for "every capitalist country" but in this capitalist country we are only guaranteed the opportunity, not the right, to succeed and do well.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 11:32 AM
I am no kool-aid drinking fool.

Obama said exactly what?

Weath redistribution is a goal of every capitalist country. Please name one capitalistic country that doesn't have wealth redistribution in some form.

Don't be silly and try to paint this black and white. You can do better than that.


Robin Hood wasn't a capitalist. You know, that whole "take from the rich and give to the poor thing?" At its core, that's what BHO espoused in the 2001 interview and it would appear from statements on the stump, the leopard has most definitely not changed his spots. Rank populism, obviously very compelling to many Americans.

My fervent hope is it is mostly hyperbole, but my fear is he actually believes the manure he's spreading. If he wins, and if he's just a demagogue, we'll survive because we've had demagogues in the White House before and came through alright. If he's truly bought-in on these radical notions, and he wins, its gonna be a long four years.

Chuck Bao
10/27/2008, 11:33 AM
You guys get a grip.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have taxes.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have some social safety net.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have some form of worker protection.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 11:42 AM
You guys get a grip.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have taxes.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have some social safety net.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have some form of worker protection.

taxes, schmaxes. Yes, they all have taxes, which should be used to pay for national security and national infrastructure. Everything else is gravy. When people start espousing a rewrite of the Constitution to make things "rights" that are now "wants", or even "needs," hang on to your wallet brother.

Where does it end? BHO thinks health care should be a right. He said so in the last debate. That's no spin. He qualified that statement by saying that because we're a rich country, we can afford to provide health care to all and we should. Well sir, we can also afford to deliver pizza to everyone at dinnertime, and people sure as heck gotta eat to live, but sheesh. How about an infusion of some good old personal responsibility in BHO World?

We are, for the moment, unquestionably a rich country. Even our poorest citizens have a color TV with cable, can afford hair and nail grooming, cell phones, food and a warm place to live. Most even have an automobile. Their kids have free public education thru the twelfth grade. In the vast majority of places around the globe, that would be considered Fat City. But dadgummit, people have to be held responsible for some areas of their lives or we're toast. Government can't be in the dream granting business.

Hands up, not hand-outs.

Widescreen
10/27/2008, 11:43 AM
You guys get a grip.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have taxes.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have some social safety net.

Name one capitalistic country that doesn't have some form of worker protection.

Name one capitalist country where the capitalists are the ones who pushed for those things. Those are socialist tenets.

sooner_born_1960
10/27/2008, 11:44 AM
Actually, I'd probably vote for him if he'd deliver a pizza every evening.

Widescreen
10/27/2008, 11:45 AM
He qualified that statement by saying that because we're a rich country, we can afford to provide health care to all and we should.

Once again he's wrong. We're not a rich country. Rich countries don't have so much debt that their children's futures are at major risk. Unless a country is rich because it has the ability to go even further into debt to pay for even more socialism. :confused:

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 11:55 AM
Once again he's wrong. We're not a rich country. Rich countries don't have so much debt that their children's futures are at major risk. Unless a country is rich because it has the ability to go even further into debt to pay for even more socialism. :confused:

That is probably the most insightful thing I've seen posted on the subject in a long time. My hat is off to you sir.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 11:56 AM
Actually, I'd probably vote for him if he'd deliver a pizza every evening.

and then gripe if it wasn't piping hot and came with extra cheese.;)

JohnnyMack
10/27/2008, 12:02 PM
taxes, schmaxes. Yes, they all have taxes, which should be used to pay for national security and national infrastructure. Everything else is gravy. When people start espousing a rewrite of the Constitution to make things "rights" that are now "wants", or even "needs," hang on to your wallet brother.

Where does it end? BHO thinks health care should be a right. He said so in the last debate. That's no spin. He qualified that statement by saying that because we're a rich country, we can afford to provide health care to all and we should. Well sir, we can also afford to deliver pizza to everyone at dinnertime, and people sure as heck gotta eat to live, but sheesh. How about an infusion of some good old personal responsibility in BHO World?

We are, for the moment, unquestionably a rich country. Even our poorest citizens have a color TV with cable, can afford hair and nail grooming, cell phones, food and a warm place to live. Most even have an automobile. Their kids have free public education thru the twelfth grade. In the vast majority of places around the globe, that would be considered Fat City. But dadgummit, people have to be held responsible for some areas of their lives or we're toast. Government can't be in the dream granting business.

Hands up, not hand-outs.

Yeah but. I think many people have failed to pay attention to the man behind the curtain in all this. Like Widescreen said, we're not truly a rich nation, we're a debtor nation. The banks made money coming and going on this and while some got excessively greedy and couldn't maintain I think the quote from Greenspan last week speaks volumes to what happens when you have a capitalistic society with no controls on it.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 12:05 PM
Yeah but. I think many people have failed to pay attention to the man behind the curtain in all this. Like Widescreen said, we're not truly a rich nation, we're a debtor nation. The banks made money coming and going on this and while some got excessively greedy and couldn't maintain I think the quote from Greenspan last week speaks volumes to what happens when you have a capitalistic society with no controls on it.

Everyone is clamoring for "controls." The problem is, try to get three economists to agree on a set of "controls."

LosAngelesSooner
10/27/2008, 01:11 PM
C'mon Chuck, you're smarter than that. Nothing much; except his unvarnished worldview, one, I might add he shares with "Rev" Wright and that ilk, shared before he was forced to temper his speech based on being involved in a national political campaign.So should we look at things Bush said/did in the past and hold those up as evidence of his current worldview and intellectual level? (cocaine, drugs, blatantly dumb things said)

How about some of McCain's crazier things he's said way back in the past?

:rolleyes:

You're reaching and you know it. You're reaching out for crap. Baseless crap.

I believe that people grow...they change...they mature and their opinions and stances on issues grow, change and mature along with them. UNLESS they post of Internet Message boards. ;)

LosAngelesSooner
10/27/2008, 01:15 PM
I can understand why you wouldn't care about his marxist position and would consider bringing up his relationship with 1.Rezco,(a criminal whom he benefited from) or 2.Wright( a racist so called minister that he said was his spiritual leader for 20 years) or 3.Ayers, (his terrorist partner in education molding) as well as his own words of redistributing the wealth. "MUDSLINGING"

Come on now :cool:Your assertions are false and it is mudslinging and the more you do it the more desperate you sound.

Widescreen
10/27/2008, 01:30 PM
You tell 'em you big McCain supporter.

tommieharris91
10/27/2008, 02:04 PM
Once again he's wrong. We're not a rich country. Rich countries don't have so much debt that their children's futures are at major risk. Unless a country is rich because it has the ability to go even further into debt to pay for even more socialism. :confused:

Funny, most of those socialist countries actually have a budget surplus. Wanna know what else puts countries deep into debt? Wars.

tommieharris91
10/27/2008, 02:05 PM
Everyone is clamoring for "controls." The problem is, try to get three economists to agree on a set of "controls."

That would be called the Federal Reserve System.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 02:06 PM
So should we look at things Bush said/did in the past and hold those up as evidence of his current worldview and intellectual level? (cocaine, drugs, blatantly dumb things said)

How about some of McCain's crazier things he's said way back in the past?

:rolleyes:



Yes, IF said into a microphone during a legitimate interview that anyone with an ounce of sense knows nowadays will exist forever.

Look, I realize people can change their views, but this "economic justice" chord is, and has been, central to who the guy is. To deny it is to deny you know anything at all about the man.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 02:11 PM
Funny, most of those socialist countries actually have a budget surplus. Wanna know what else puts countries deep into debt? Wars.

budget surplusses are, by definition, a bad thing. They only arise when a government is taking too much from its taxpayers. The goal is a balanced set of books with zero surplus.

and, for the record, WWII is what pulled the US out of the Depression. FDR's "New Deal" hadn't made a dent in it by 1941. Not saying we should start a war to get things straightened out. That would be wrongheaded, but merely to point out that the massive government attempt to extricate us from the Depression was FAIL.

tommieharris91
10/27/2008, 02:17 PM
budget surplusses are, by definition, a bad thing. They only arise when a government is taking too much from its taxpayers. The goal is a balanced set of books with zero surplus.

and, for the record, WWII is what pulled the US out of the Depression. FDR's "New Deal" hadn't made a dent in it by 1941. Not saying we should start a war to get things straightened out. That would be wrongheaded, but merely to point out that the massive government attempt to extricate us from the Depression was FAIL.

Ohh I don't doubt you that WWII pulled us out of the Great Depression. However, we are still paying for that war, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Civil War, etc. right now.

Also, I am someone who thinks that our current deficit is unsustainable and has caused economic damage. I do advocate some changes to way the US is spending it's tax revenues. I don't a country should ever be $10T in debt, and those debts need to be paid down to something more mangeable.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 02:57 PM
Ohh I don't doubt you that WWII pulled us out of the Great Depression. However, we are still paying for that war, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Civil War, etc. right now.



naw, the Civil War is paid off. All that property confiscated from former Rebs covered it. I think we have the paid invoices in the National Archives somewhere.:D

Frozen Sooner
10/27/2008, 03:00 PM
I'm pretty sure we paid off the Spanish American war, since the tax we implemented to pay for it just got discontinued a few years ago.

LosAngelesSooner
10/27/2008, 03:19 PM
You tell 'em you big McCain supporter.I will.

And I'm proud to be a McCain supporter and not an Obama/Democrat hater.

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 03:36 PM
I will.

And I'm proud to be a McCain supporter and not an Obama/Democrat hater.


you forgot "race-baiter." Its easy to do. I understand.;)

LosAngelesSooner
10/27/2008, 03:51 PM
Wait.

Are you ACTUALLY trying to call me a "race-baiter?"

Really?

Okla-homey
10/27/2008, 03:53 PM
Wait.

Are you ACTUALLY trying to call me a "race-baiter?"

Really?


no silly. You are a self-described JSM supporter and non-BHO/Dem "hater" and race-baiter.

LosAngelesSooner
10/27/2008, 04:52 PM
Oh, well in that case, yes. I am a JSM supporter, not a race-baiter or a BHO/Dem hater.

That would be an accurate statement.