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Collier11
10/7/2008, 05:52 PM
Obama fans-what would it take from Mccain to change your mind or make you second guess

Mccain fans-what would it take from Obama to change your mind or make you second guess

SoonerInKCMO
10/7/2008, 07:15 PM
If Palin could play the solo from Locomotive Breath (while standing on one foot, of course) I might vote for their ticket.

SoonerInKCMO
10/7/2008, 07:19 PM
And if she fronted Jethro Tull on a 30-city tour, I'd change that to a definite vote for them.

SoonerInKCMO
10/7/2008, 07:25 PM
Ooh,ooh,ooh!! No,no,no!! Can I change my answer?!?!

Imagine Johnny and the Devil down in Georgia... except it's Palin and Ian Anderson playing a duel. Palin wins and she gets my vote and a golden flute!

TUSooner
10/7/2008, 07:34 PM
If McCain had Lieberman as his vp, I'd have no doubt.
Heck, even if he had Biden. :O

Or maybe Palin could..... n/m

Rogue
10/7/2008, 07:59 PM
If either one of these cats would dump their disastrous VP running mate and get someone smart, trustworthy, and with a good reputation...I'd be on board.

I can't stand Biden or Palin.

I'm a hard lean for BO. If McCain came out and said he's going to ban former Secretaries of the VA from profiting from the privatization of VA healthcare and Compensation/Pension exams...I'd listen.

If McCain (like Bill-O) came out and admitted that we invaded the wrong country, I'd probably vote for him.

If McCain admitted that he hasn't been a maverick in 8 years and holds a grudge against the GOP machine that whispered-campaigned him as some crazy unpredictable old coot in South Carolina I'd probably vote for him.

If McCain had a healthcare plan that takes care of my poorest neighbors...I'd probably vote for him.

IronHorseSooner
10/7/2008, 08:16 PM
I am a diehard independent, who always said if McCain ran for President, I would vote for him. With Palin, I am in no way voting for him. If he would have picked Romney, Ridge, Pawlenty, even Huckabee, I would vote for them. Palin, as Veep, scares the bejesus out of me. She's a carbon-copy of my ex-wife. It's not that I like Obama, but Palin just disgusts me. In short, McCain would need to dump Palin and pick one of the folks above. I wish we had a legitimate third choice, but we will never see that in America.

Hot Rod
10/7/2008, 09:47 PM
I'm not voting for Obama, because Biden reminds me of my old creepy shop teacher. ;)

Veritas
10/7/2008, 09:59 PM
BHO would need to reverse his socialist policies (see: healthcare as a right, placing an increased tax burden on that 2% that already pay 50% of the tax bill). While I'm dreaming I'd like him to just admit he's a Muslim. ;)

McCain would have needed to take a stand against the bailout bill.

GrapevineSooner
10/7/2008, 10:10 PM
BHO would need to reverse his socialist policies (see: healthcare as a right, placing an increased tax burden on that 2% that already pay 50% of the tax bill). While I'm dreaming I'd like him to just admit he's a Muslim. ;)

McCain would have needed to take a stand against the bailout bill.

Not to mention, take a strong stance for the Second Amendment.

Yeah, I know. Biggest pipe dream from the biggest bong in the world.

PDXsooner
10/7/2008, 10:49 PM
BHO would need to reverse his socialist policies (see: healthcare as a right,


do you not see healthcare as a right?

Veritas
10/7/2008, 10:51 PM
do you not see healthcare as a right?
Nope.

OUthunder
10/7/2008, 10:51 PM
Nope.

Concur.

GrapevineSooner
10/7/2008, 10:54 PM
If I eat nothing but fast food, smoke, drink, and get unhealthy because of that behavior, I see no reason why it's the government's responsibility to take care of me.

Children? OK, but only in cases where the bread winner of a family couldn't otherwise purchase a healthcare plan. And I'm willing to make concessions for other people.

That doesn't include families who make $50,000 a year, BTW.

And please note that my position here doesn't necessarily mean I think everything is hunky dory with healthcare in our country. No matter how f**ked up our system might be, healthcare will never be a right in my book.

8timechamps
10/7/2008, 10:56 PM
Why shouldn't healthcare be a right?

8timechamps
10/7/2008, 10:57 PM
If I eat nothing but fast food, smoke, drink, and get unhealthy because of that behavior, I see no reason why it's the government's responsibility to take care of me.

Children? OK, but only in cases where the bread winner of a family couldn't otherwise purchase a healthcare plan. And I'm willing to make concessions for other people.

That doesn't include families who make $50,000 a year, BTW.

And please note that my position here doesn't necessarily mean I think everything is hunky dory with healthcare in our country. No matter how f**ked up our system might be, healthcare will never be a right in my book.

Do you think some level of healthcare should be a right?

OUthunder
10/7/2008, 10:59 PM
Why shouldn't healthcare be a right?

Why shouldn't an unborn child be?

I mean, if you want the tax payer to pay for your healthcare, why shouldn't an unborn child have some "rights" too?

8timechamps
10/7/2008, 11:03 PM
Why shouldn't an unborn child be?

I mean, if you want the tax payer to pay for your healthcare, why shouldn't an unborn child have some "rights" too?

I really don't know where I stand on this issue.

My first reaction is to say that it should be a right. Given the country we live in. However, there are somethings that can be argued against it.

Here's a question: Do you think education is a right? If you do, then I could argue that taxpayers fund a 12 year education, and in many cases, that's a total waste of money.

Like I said, I don't have a firm stance for or against, slightly leaning more toward it being a right. Just curious of other's rationale.

PDXsooner
10/7/2008, 11:05 PM
interesting.

LosAngelesSooner
10/7/2008, 11:07 PM
If I eat nothing but fast food, smoke, drink, and get unhealthy because of that behavior, I see no reason why it's the government's responsibility to take care of me.If you fail to lock your doors and get an alarm on your house and someone breaks in and robs you, do you think the police should try to find them and respond when you call 911?

If you drive too fast and don't wear a seatbelt and get in a 1 car accident, flipped over in a ditch by the side of the road, do you think the Fire Dept. should show up quickly and cut you out of your car?

Both cases are your fault in some way even though you didn't expect that bad thing to come along and make your life difficult. Both cases you're the only one being hurt. Both cases the rest of the public around you is paying to cover your butt with their tax money.

LosAngelesSooner
10/7/2008, 11:09 PM
Unborn children DO have rights.

Zygotes which haven't even become fetuses yet, not so much.

GrapevineSooner
10/7/2008, 11:10 PM
Do you think some level of healthcare should be a right?

Generally speaking, yes. There will always be members of our society that have no means to financially bear the burden of a health care plan for themselves or their family because of means beyond their control. Take it on a case by case basis, I say.

And perhaps substitute the term 'right' with 'privilege'.

Health care is one of those issues that I'll admit has it's fair share of problems. Because of that, I'm willing to take a position but also be open to hearing the pros on why it should be considered a right.

PDXsooner
10/7/2008, 11:13 PM
serious question regarding the abortion issue. is masturbation a form of mass abortion?

OUthunder
10/7/2008, 11:13 PM
I really don't know where I stand on this issue.

My first reaction is to say that it should be a right. Given the country we live in. However, there are somethings that can be argued against it.

Here's a question: Do you think education is a right? If you do, then I could argue that taxpayers fund a 12 year education, and in many cases, that's a total waste of money.

Like I said, I don't have a firm stance for or against, slightly leaning more toward it being a right. Just curious of other's rationale.

Believe ot or not I'm Pro-choice and an Independent who votes my conscience. If we have a moral obligation to provide healthcare to every American and illegal alien in this country according to Obama, then we should have that same obligation to an unborn child as well.

GrapevineSooner
10/7/2008, 11:18 PM
If you fail to lock your doors and get an alarm on your house and someone breaks in and robs you, do you think the police should try to find them and respond when you call 911?

If you drive too fast and don't wear a seatbelt and get in a 1 car accident, flipped over in a ditch by the side of the road, do you think the Fire Dept. should show up quickly and cut you out of your car?

Both cases are your fault in some way even though you didn't expect that bad thing to come along and make your life difficult. Both cases you're the only one being hurt. Both cases the rest of the public around you is paying to cover your butt with their tax money.

Fair points, indeed.

Though I will submit that both of the examples, the city would be within their right to bill me for the use of their services later on.

Like I said in a post to 8timechamps, health care is a complicated issue for which there isn't a perfect resolution. I'm open to any suggestions (even though we're not going to be resolve the issue in this forum ;). But I'm just not that crazy on the idea of making a health care necessarily a 'right' at the moment.

GrapevineSooner
10/7/2008, 11:22 PM
serious question regarding the abortion issue. is masturbation a form of mass abortion?

Well, it has been said that that form of pleasure could be construed as assassinating some future Presidents. ;)

And on the abortion issue, I hear there's a measure in Colorado to basically recognize embryos as 'humans' with the same basic rights to life as you and I.

The law of unintended consequences comes to mind when I think of laws like that.

Collier11
10/7/2008, 11:22 PM
Why shouldn't healthcare be a right?

because I dont want to be told who and when to purchase it from, that is my right

Veritas
10/7/2008, 11:23 PM
I could be more eloquent about this, but I want to go watch It's Always Sunny.

Healthcare isn't a right because other Americans shouldn't be obligated to sacrifice to provide it for you (the royal you, not anyone in this thread).

Cancel cable. Eat out less. Don't buy new cars on credit. Live on a budget. If you can't afford something, healthcare or otherwise, that's your problem, and in all but the smallest percentage of cases, it's a situation of your own creation.

GrapevineSooner
10/7/2008, 11:24 PM
because I dont want to be told who and when to purchase it from, that is my right

Well, who's to say that would happen if any form of socialized healthcare were to take form here? Who's to say people wouldn't have an opt out clause, much the same way that parents have the right to either send their children to private school or public school?

Obviously, you'd still have to pay for the national healthcare plan.

Collier11
10/7/2008, 11:25 PM
Unborn children DO have rights.

Zygotes which haven't even become fetuses yet, not so much.

Then why are people who murder a pregnant woman charged for double murder if it isnt a life?

There lies the issue, conception is life to me and you will never convince me otherwise...Im not here to argue that point, that is just my opinion...if you didnt want a child then dont have sex or be more careful.

One might say, well what if the woman was raped or it was incest which I used to agree with but after alot of soul searching and talking to my peers I have come to realize that there is no life that is unimportant or not worth a chance to live. Life doesnt have different values, life is valuable in all states from beginning to end.

Collier11
10/7/2008, 11:27 PM
Well, who's to say that would happen if any form of socialized healthcare were to take form here? Who's to say people wouldn't have an opt out clause, much the same way that parents have the right to either send their children to private school or public school?

Obviously, you'd still have to pay for the national healthcare plan.

Both Clinton and Obama said that they would fine people who didnt have healthcare, Hell Obama said that tonight...if there was an opt out clause, would it cost us thousands upon thousands of dollars like private school?

GottaHavePride
10/7/2008, 11:30 PM
There's a flip side to the healthcare issue.

Preventive care is more effective than remedial care.

For example: having your teeth cleaned by a dentist occasionally is FAR cheaper than the thousands of dollars of work required to fix your teeth when they rot out.

So while healthcare may not be a "right", it's far more economically sensible for taxpayers to invest in ensuring that everyone receives at least minimum basic healthcare, rather than shelling out money for EMS services, ER visits, and every other expense that crops up trying to save the lives of people that haven't had any access to healthcare. In the long run, we're actually saving money.

Whet
10/7/2008, 11:33 PM
If the Obama folks would go through detox, they may be able to think clearly and support McCain.

Collier11
10/7/2008, 11:34 PM
If you fail to lock your doors and get an alarm on your house and someone breaks in and robs you, do you think the police should try to find them and respond when you call 911?

Our taxes pay for this right, plus if you didnt have govt protection whether on the national, state, or city level you would have anarchy...much diff than mandatory health care

PDXsooner
10/7/2008, 11:40 PM
Fair points, indeed.

Though I will submit that both of the examples, the city would be within their right to bill me for the use of their services later on.

Like I said in a post to 8timechamps, health care is a complicated issue for which there isn't a perfect resolution. I'm open to any suggestions (even though we're not going to be resolve the issue in this forum ;). But I'm just not that crazy on the idea of making a health care necessarily a 'right' at the moment.

i'm also not one to defend unhealthy people. i'm a firefighter and a large portion of the calls we go on are caused by unhealthy lifestyles (diabetes caused by obesity, smoking, alcoholism, etc.) -- however, uneducated people have no idea how unhealthy they are. and a lot of it is because of the ridiculous BS that fast food and other companies advertise about their food being "healthy" when it's full of crap. and no one will ever do anything about the lies that mcdonalds, taco bell, etc tell because the fast food industry has been paying off politicians for years.

secondly, do you eat organic and unprocessed foods? if not, i'd put you in a similar category. the presevatives and hormones in our foods (in particular our meats) is known to cause many cancers, yet i'm shocked at how many people pay no attention to this, or demand changes. i'm called a hippie at work (jokingly, kind of ;) because i'm always riding the guys to buy organic foods.

Collier11
10/7/2008, 11:42 PM
i'm also not one to defend unhealthy people. i'm a firefighter and a large portion of the calls we go on are caused by unhealthy lifestyles (diabetes caused by obesity, smoking, alcoholism, etc.) -- however, uneducated people have no idea how unhealthy they are. and a lot of it is because of the ridiculous BS that fast food and other companies advertise about their food being "healthy" when it's full of crap. and no one will ever do anything about the lies that mcdonalds, taco bell, etc tell because the fast food industry has been paying off politicians for years.

secondly, do you eat organic and unprocessed foods? if not, i'd put you in a similar category. the presevatives and hormones in our foods (in particular our meats) is known to cause many cancers, yet i'm shocked at how many people pay no attention to this, or demand changes. i'm called a hippie at work (jokingly, kind of ;) because i'm always riding the guys to buy organic foods.

HIPPIE!

GottaHavePride
10/7/2008, 11:42 PM
secondly, do you eat organic and unprocessed foods?

A lot more than I used to, that's for sure. ;)

PDXsooner
10/7/2008, 11:44 PM
HIPPIE!
:D

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:09 AM
Both Clinton and Obama said that they would fine people who didnt have healthcare, Hell Obama said that tonight...if there was an opt out clause, would it cost us thousands upon thousands of dollars like private school?But...


... life is valuable in all states from beginning to end.:pop:

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:12 AM
Our taxes pay for this right, Much as they would pay for Health Care.

plus if you didnt have govt protection whether on the national, state, or city level you would have anarchyReally? There weren't a lot of cops in the Wild West. I think the 2nd Amendment would prevent a lot of what people consider "anarchy" from happening.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 12:15 AM
But...

:pop:


Much as they would pay for Health Care.
have you ever seen how much taxes are where there is social healthcare

Really? There weren't a lot of cops in the Wild West. I think the 2nd Amendment would prevent a lot of what people consider "anarchy" from happening.
Did you really just compare civilized society to the wild west where anyone with a gun could challenge anyone to a duel in the streets


Respond to actual questions and statements, stop making rediculous statements like the one directly above, say something substantial.

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:16 AM
Then why are people who murder a pregnant woman charged for double murder if it isnt a life?Because murder is a heinous crime. Murder of a woman, in our society, is an even worse crime. Murder of a pregnant woman, again in our society, is an even worse crime.

It's added punishment. It's societal revenge. And, I'm fully in support of it.


There lies the issue, conception is life to me and you will never convince me otherwise...Im not here to argue that point, that is just my opinion...if you didnt want a child then dont have sex or be more careful.Dude, can you honestly say that you absolutely always have sex with the intention being of getting the woman you're having sex with pregnant?

And if so...WOW, SEAN KEMP POSTS ON THIS BOARD!!! ;)

:D:D:D


One might say, well what if the woman was raped or it was incest which I used to agree with but after alot of soul searching and talking to my peers I have come to realize that there is no life that is unimportant or not worth a chance to live. Life doesnt have different values, life is valuable in all states from beginning to end.Are you pro-death penalty?
Are you in favor of ER rooms saving the lives of people with no insurance?
Are you in favor of Euthanasia?
Are you a supporter of war under any circumstances?

By the way, I respect your views (even though I disagree with some of them), but I'm honestly curious about your opinions on these questions. :)

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:18 AM
Respond to actual questions and statements, stop making rediculous statements like the one directly above, say something substantial.
Uhm...dude...give a guy a chance to type the questions out, first. :(

Secondly, it doesn't make my point any less valid. You contradicted yourself in two consecutive posts. I was just pointing it out.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 12:22 AM
Because murder is a heinous crime. Murder of a woman, in our society, is an even worse crime. Murder of a pregnant woman, again in our society, is an even worse crime.

how is murder of a woman a more heinous crime?

It's added punishment. It's societal revenge. And, I'm fully in support of it.

That has nothing to do with it, it has to do with the law protecting that other life

Dude, can you honestly say that you absolutely always have sex with the intention being of getting the woman you're having sex with pregnant?

No but if I got someone pregnant I would be man enough to take care of that child...not kill the child

And if so...WOW, SEAN KEMP POSTS ON THIS BOARD!!! ;)

:D:D:D

Are you pro-death penalty? Yes, it is justice in some cases...that isnt an individual deciding, that is our judicial system

Are you in favor of ER rooms saving the lives of people with no insurance? Why wouldnt I be

Are you in favor of Euthanasia? Explain your question, under what terms?
Are you a supporter of war under any circumstance? Im a supporter of war as a necessary means to protect our country and innocent people

By the way, I respect your views, but I'm honestly curious about your opinions on these questions. :)


There ya have it, I answered your questions directly now answer mine

Collier11
10/8/2008, 12:23 AM
Uhm...dude...give a guy a chance to type the questions out, first. :(

Secondly, it doesn't make my point any less valid. You contradicted yourself in two consecutive posts. I was just pointing it out.

how do my stances on health care and abortion contradict each other?

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:31 AM
This is how I see it.

You asked:
how do my stances on health care and abortion contradict each other?But you took the position that:


Life doesnt have different values, life is valuable in all states from beginning to end.
Then you argued against society (including you and I) providing health care to all people including those who can't afford it stating:


Both Clinton and Obama said that they would fine people who didnt have healthcare, Hell Obama said that tonight...if there was an opt out clause, would it cost us thousands upon thousands of dollars like private school?
Health care takes care of human life and attempts to preserve it, regardless of the condition of that life considering that is has the same value (not a different value) even though a sick person is in a different state than a healthy person. In other words, to withhold health care is tantamount to murder via inaction.

I'm merely pointing out the contradiction in your own statements using your logic. That's all. The only way this ISN'T contradictory is if you feel that there is an actual monetary value that can be placed on life and that, once a person's health care/life cost exceeds that monetary amount it is now too pricey and exceeds it's inherent "life value."

And I DID answer your questions (I think). Did I miss one?

Collier11
10/8/2008, 12:34 AM
editing

I have no idea what you are trying to say, enlighten me??:confused:

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:40 AM
I have no idea what you are trying to say, enlighten me??:confused:
Sorry. I had to post part of the quotes in order to grab the other quote and paste it in there. Then I used the "edit" feature to make my post. It wouldn't let me just quote you and post that first. I had to type something. So I typed, "editing," and then grabbed your other post on the next page.

I was just trying to gather my thoughts and post them in the most coherent way I could. Sorry if that initial "blank canvas" was confusing. :)

Collier11
10/8/2008, 12:46 AM
This is how I see it.

You asked:But you took the position that:


Then you argued against society (including you and I) providing health care to all people including those who can't afford it stating:


Health care takes care of human life and attempts to preserve it, regardless of the condition of that life considering that is has the same value (not a different value) even though a sick person is in a different state than a healthy person. In other words, to withhold health care is tantamount to murder via inaction.

You cant possibly compare my disagreeing with all forms of abortion with govt mandated healthcare...come on now

I'm merely pointing out the contradiction in your own statements using your logic. That's all. The only way this ISN'T contradictory is if you feel that there is an actual monetary value that can be placed on life and that, once a person's health care/life cost exceeds that monetary amount it is now too pricey and exceeds it's inherent "life value."

And I DID answer your questions (I think). Did I miss one?

Everyone is gauranteed health care even if they cant afford it in serious cases, what I dont want is the govt telling me that I have to have it or who to buy it from or how much to pay for it

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:51 AM
Everyone is gauranteed health care even if they cant afford it in serious cases, what I dont want is the govt telling me that I have to have it or who to buy it from or how much to pay for itFair enough. And I get that. But the argument you used was regarding the value of life. That stance contradicts your later stance regarding health care. Perhaps you don't really think that all life is valuable in all states from life through death?

That's all I'm pointing out.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 12:52 AM
My stance on socialized health care has nothing to do with my opinion on the value of life

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:59 AM
There ya have it, I answered your questions directly now answer mineOkay.


Because murder is a heinous crime. Murder of a woman, in our society, is an even worse crime. Murder of a pregnant woman, again in our society, is an even worse crime.

how is murder of a woman a more heinous crime?
I'm not saying that it IS, I'm just saying that is how it is perceived in our society.

To illustrate my point more clearly imagine you're in a parking lot and you see a man punch another man. Now imagine you see a man punch a woman.

Do they both evoke the same emotional response in you or does one seem just a bit more "wrong"?


It's added punishment. It's societal revenge. And, I'm fully in support of it.

That has nothing to do with it, it has to do with the law protecting that other lifeI disagree. First off, it does nothing to "protect" the "other life." Secondly courts are known for "piling on" charges in an attempt to keep people in jail longer or punish them more for crimes. This is, in my opinion, a case of that.


Dude, can you honestly say that you absolutely always have sex with the intention being of getting the woman you're having sex with pregnant?

No but if I got someone pregnant I would be man enough to take care of that child...not kill the childSure. YOU would. But SHE shouldn't be beholden to do with her body what YOU morally feel SHE should.

By the way, I would act in the same way as you in this situation.


And if so...WOW, SEAN KEMP POSTS ON THIS BOARD!!! ;)

:D:D:DStill funny.


Are you pro-death penalty? Yes, it is justice in some cases...that isnt an individual deciding, that is our judicial systemThen you don't truly feel that life is valuable in all forms from birth until death. You just contradicted your stated moral position a second time.


Are you in favor of ER rooms saving the lives of people with no insurance? Why wouldnt I beIt costs you money against your will and without asking your permission.


Are you in favor of Euthanasia? Explain your question, under what terms?If a person is old or dying of a terminal and possibly painful illness and wanted to end their life, would you attempt to stop them or do you think the government should attempt to stop them?

Are you a supporter of war under any circumstance? Im a supporter of war as a necessary means to protect our country and innocent peopleThen again, you contradict your statement of value of human life in all forms from birth until death. I'm just sayin'.


By the way, I respect your views, but I'm honestly curious about your opinions on these questions. :)Again...I stand my my last statement above all others. ;)

:)

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 12:59 AM
My stance on socialized health care has nothing to do with my opinion on the value of lifeBut it inherently does. And that's why that philosophy is stated as one of the biggest arguments FOR socialized health care of SOME sort by many people.

8timechamps
10/8/2008, 03:43 AM
Isn't the right to healthcare much like the right to education?

Afterall, we pay for education, but you aren't told that you must attend a public school. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are many cases where the cost of a 12 year education is wasted.

I don't view the "right" to healthcare being defined as "you must use this provider". I see it much the same as public education "it's here if you choose to utilize it. If you choose to pay for your own education (doctor/medical provider), then you are free to do so".

As has also been mentioned, and studies have proven (and no, I don't know where to find them at this moment) that preventative healthcare saves millions in the long run.

Like I said, I'm not sure where I stand, but I tend to think that every American should have the right to some kind of healthcare.

Veritas
10/8/2008, 08:35 AM
1) Rights are fundamentally different than privileges.

2) Healthcare is a flawed and corrupt system. It is unrealistic to think that we can attach a government-administrated, taxpayer-funded sub-system in lieu of addressing the flaws and corruption of the parent system.

Condescending Sooner
10/8/2008, 09:33 AM
I would like to know the percentage of people who "Can't afford health insurance", really can't afford it, or just don't want to pay for it. I know my hick neighbor was bitching about it, but drives a brand new pickup, has a Harley, his wife has a fairly new Cherokee, and they live in a nice house.

But of course he "can't afford health insurance".

OKC Sooner
10/8/2008, 11:28 AM
Ooh,ooh,ooh!! No,no,no!! Can I change my answer?!?!

Imagine Johnny and the Devil down in Georgia... except it's Palin and Ian Anderson playing a duel. Palin wins and she gets my vote and a golden flute!

This one time... at band camp.... :D

leavingthezoo
10/8/2008, 11:49 AM
McCain could go back to being the McCain of 2000 and I'd give him a second look. I voted for him in 2000 primaries.

But see, if he did that, then all of you who thought he was terrible then would stop looking now.

Sigh.

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 12:06 PM
Obama fans-what would it take from Mccain to change your mind or make you second guess

Jettison Sarah Palin.

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 01:39 PM
Yeah. Palin is the ONLY reason I've even hesitated at all regarding McCain. She sucks beyond all magnitudes of suckage.

Stoop Dawg
10/8/2008, 01:52 PM
Mccain fans-what would it take from Obama to change your mind or make you second guess

I *want* to vote for Obama, but I just can't. I like pretty much everything about him - except for his tax & spend policies.

If Obama would agree to cut corporate taxes (some of the highest in the world) - or even leave them alone - it would help. He would then need to abandon the concept of nationalized health care and, finally, agree to leave the already high income tax rates for those earning over $250K alone.

Other than that, I'd vote for him.

Frozen Sooner
10/8/2008, 02:06 PM
Let's see:

If McCain were to warm to the concept of a single-payer health care system.
If McCain were to voice support for some form of equal rights for homosexual partners.

Those are a couple of things McCain could do to possibly bring me over to his side. I'd certainly listen hard at that point.

JohnnyMack
10/8/2008, 02:09 PM
I *want* to vote for Obama, but I just can't. I like pretty much everything about him - except for his tax & spend policies.

If Obama would agree to cut corporate taxes (some of the highest in the world) - or even leave them alone - it would help. He would then need to abandon the concept of nationalized health care and, finally, agree to leave the already high income tax rates for those earning over $250K alone.

Other than that, I'd vote for him.

Not to nitpick, but our corporate tax rate is irrelevant when the corporations don't pay out anywhere near the established levels. The tax breaks, ability to shift money off-shore and the way stock holdings are treated make it a total red herring. And it isn't nationalized health care in the sense that you'd be able to opt in to the coverage if you didn't already have it, they're not eliminating private insurance (the insurance companies/lobbies are too powerful to allow that to happen).

PhilTLL
10/8/2008, 02:09 PM
Yeah. Palin is the ONLY reason I've even hesitated at all regarding McCain. She sucks beyond all magnitudes of suckage.

This is how my dad feels. And he's an old-school Republican, the kind with fiscal sanity, intellectual honesty, and employment in the banking industry.

Stoop Dawg
10/8/2008, 02:17 PM
2) Healthcare is a flawed and corrupt system. It is unrealistic to think that we can attach a government-administrated, taxpayer-funded sub-system in lieu of addressing the flaws and corruption of the parent system.

Hear! Hear!

Health care is not a right, it is a responsibility. I think everyone should be required to have (and pay for) health insurance.

However, before we can require people to have (and pay for) health insurance we have to fix the current system. There is no reason (that I know of) why health insurance can't work like automobile insurance. IMO, the government should focus on regulating health insurance instead of trying to take it over.

I suppose I *might* be okay with some sort of tax credit for low income families in order to help them obtain health insurance. But, if you show up at the hospital without insurance you go directly to jail when you are released - especially if you are taking a tax credit to help you pay for it then don't bother to pay the premiums.

Stoop Dawg
10/8/2008, 02:23 PM
Not to nitpick, but our corporate tax rate is irrelevant when the corporations don't pay out anywhere near the established levels. The tax breaks, ability to shift money off-shore and the way stock holdings are treated make it a total red herring. And it isn't nationalized health care in the sense that you'd be able to opt in to the coverage if you didn't already have it, they're not eliminating private insurance (the insurance companies/lobbies are too powerful to allow that to happen).

You may be right about corporate tax exemptions, I don't know. But the fact is that (IMO) the govt already takes in plenty of money to perform the necessary functions of government. If they would cut spending on stupid crap they wouldn't need to raise taxes on anybody.

I did some reading on Obama's health care plan last night and while it's not a scary as Hillary's, it still misses the boat (IMO). While it doesn't eliminate private insurance, it makes it very expensive. As stated earlier in this thread, if you choose private insurance you will still have to pay into the govt system too (in the form of taxes) - so you'll essentially be paying for health insurance twice. And since the public system will *require* the insurance companies to *guarantee* coverage for everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions, you can bet that the premiums are going to be extraordinarily high.

I think the current system could be fixed much easier (and with much less money) by a few regulatory changes.

JohnnyMack
10/8/2008, 02:29 PM
I'd vote for McCain if Palin were jettisoned into space and Obama dropped dead.

achiro
10/8/2008, 03:29 PM
So last night McCain missed the boat bigtime on the Healthcare subject. They started by talking about bailing out/changing medicare. How much trouble it was in etc. Then move on to Obama's health care plan. Medicare is broken...BIGTIME, yet Obama and his followers want a government urun healthcare plan. What a ****ing joke! :rolleyes:

As far as getting me to vote for Obama. He would have to become conservative on taxes, healthcare, guns, and several other subjects.

OUthunder
10/8/2008, 04:22 PM
I'd vote for The Obama if hell froze over.

soonerscuba
10/8/2008, 04:31 PM
McCain would need to drop the kook, do another about-face on torture, and agree to sunset the Bush tax cuts as was his position before he was running for president.

Obama pretty much has vote unless it comes out in the next few days that he is a Muslim and helped Ayers bomb people as an 8 year-old.

C&CDean
10/8/2008, 04:51 PM
I'd have to get a pre-frontal lobotomy, take 100 prozacs, and drink a gallon of OVJ just so I could be as clueless as Johnny "I'd fellate Obama in a hearbeat" Mack in order to vote for the boy.

And I'm kinda wondering why all you big, strong, American men are so afraid of Sarah Palin. Y'all must have some deep-rooted sexual issues you haven't dealt with yet. McCain croaks, she becomes POTUS and what? The whole place is gonna implode? The only qualification for being potus for you guys is a) is he/she pretty? and b) can he/she speak in public? She passes on both counts.

mdklatt
10/8/2008, 05:00 PM
because I dont want to be told who and when to purchase it from, that is my right

I guess you don't have health insurance from your employer.

PDXsooner
10/8/2008, 06:10 PM
And I'm kinda wondering why all you big, strong, American men are so afraid of Sarah Palin. .

nothing against retarded (i mean "developmentally delayed") people, i just don't want one a sniper bullet away from being the leader of our country.

LosAngelesSooner
10/8/2008, 07:43 PM
And I'm kinda wondering why all you big, strong, American men are so afraid of Sarah Palin. Y'all must have some deep-rooted sexual issues you haven't dealt with yet. McCain croaks, she becomes POTUS and what? The whole place is gonna implode? The only qualification for being potus for you guys is a) is he/she pretty? and b) can he/she speak in public? She passes on both counts.No.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 08:34 PM
nothing against retarded (i mean "developmentally delayed") people, i just don't want one a sniper bullet away from being the leader of our country.

I love it when you people attack someone who you dont even knows intelligence, she probably has more education than you do. be against her principles and beliefs all you want. Oh yea, you try speaking in front of millions of people and see how 'gathered' you are

soonerscuba
10/8/2008, 08:49 PM
I love it when you people attack someone who you dont even knows intelligence, she probably has more education than you do. be against her principles and beliefs all you want. Oh yea, you try speaking in front of millions of people and see how 'gathered' you areIf you define education as schooling, then most on this board are better educated.

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 08:52 PM
Oh yea, you try speaking in front of millions of people and see how 'gathered' you are

I dunno, for someone who supposedly has less experience than Palin, Obama seems to do alright.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 08:54 PM
She has ran a city, a state, a national gaurd, chaired the oil and gas commission of alaska, has a college degree, and hit clutch free throws to win her hs team the state title ;)...she has a lot of education

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 08:55 PM
... but apparently she can't put together a coherent thought under pressure.

Yeah, that's the kind of person I want in the Oval Office.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 08:55 PM
I dunno, for someone who supposedly has less experience than Palin, Obama seems to do alright.

he has said nothing of substance, the only difference is that he speaks more smoothly so you all think he has it all figured out...I hope im wrong, I really do but I think those of you who vote for him are getting the wool pulled over your eyes

Having said that, im not "one of those", if I am wrong or he becomes a great president I will be happy. I love my country too much not to be

Collier11
10/8/2008, 08:57 PM
... but apparently she can't put together a coherent thought under pressure.

Yeah, that's the kind of person I want in the Oval Office.

since public speaking has ever determined what kind of leader you can be...you guys really do buy into the liberal media crap. No one is perfect, she has her flaws and im not saying she would even be a great VP, I really dont know. What I do know is that she has done a lot and she isnt a typical washington insider which is a great thing, its not like those on capitol hill on either side of the aisle have accomplished jack sh*t in several years

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:02 PM
since public speaking has ever determined what kind of leader you can be...you guys really do buy into the liberal media crap.

Are you ****ing kidding me? Since forever.

Winston Churchill saved the British Empire in WWII with his public speaking. And that's just my favorite example. You could rattle off a list a mile long of instances where public speaking was the difference.

Frozen Sooner
10/8/2008, 09:05 PM
She has ran a city, a state, a national gaurd, chaired the oil and gas commission of alaska, has a college degree, and hit clutch free throws to win her hs team the state title ;)...she has a lot of education

So much education she had to go to four different schools to get it!

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:07 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me? Since forever.

Winston Churchill saved the British Empire in WWII with his public speaking. And that's just my favorite example. You could rattle off a list a mile long of instances where public speaking was the difference.


and there have been great leaders who werent great speakers

soonerscuba
10/8/2008, 09:07 PM
I think that the ability to successfully articulate policy positions to the other branches of government as well as the populace at large is the cornerstone of almost all great presidencies. Granted, it's possible, but not incredibly likely.

Beyond an almost total disagreement with her in terms of policy, I prefer an elite in the executive. People go to five colleges in six years for journalism for a reason, primarily as a result of them not having a particular depth in intellectual curiosity. This scares me.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:09 PM
So much education she had to go to four different schools to get it!

once again, do you know the circumstances behind that...what does it matter.

I started off at uco, went to ou, back to uco, then back to OU. Does that make my degree from OU any less earned or make me any less educated. This is week sauce guys

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:11 PM
I think that the ability to successfully articulate policy positions to the other branches of government as well as the populace at large is the cornerstone of almost all great presidencies. Granted, it's possible, but not incredibly likely.

Perhaps in that setting she is great, have any of us wintessed it? I have heard great things about how good she is in meetings, even at debates. She was working with 5 weeks to get ready for debates where 60,000,000 people were watching.

People go to five colleges in six years for journalism for a reason, primarily as a result of them not having a particular depth in intellectual curiosity. This scares me.

That could very well be but that isnt certain. Provide me facts to back this up and I will admit im wrong

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:12 PM
and there have been great leaders who werent great speakers

I'm trying to think of 'Great Leaders' who have acquitted themselves as poorly as Palin on this front, and I'm drawing a blank. Help me out here.

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:14 PM
People go to five colleges in six years for journalism for a reason, primarily as a result of them not having a particular depth in intellectual curiosity.

Or they could have just been idiots when they were young. I'm willing to give her a pass on that. Some of the smartest, most successful folks I know dicked around as undergrads.

Her penchant for being unable to form a coherent thought under pressure? Not so much.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:15 PM
I'm trying to think of 'Great Leaders' who have acquitted themselves as poorly as Palin on this front, and I'm drawing a blank. Help me out here.

Hitler and Castro were great public speakers, I know that much. It doesnt prove anything, I will concede that it is a definite benefit to be able to articulate your beliefs and thoughts well in public, it is not the end all though

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:17 PM
Let me ask you this

Youve got Palin running for VP who isnt a great public speaker thus far but in her political career she has accomplished much even if it is at a smaller level

Youve got Obama running for POTUS who IS a GREAT public speaker, but what the fudge has he done in his career? As the likely future president, shouldnt you be able to name 10 things that he has done that held some significance?

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:18 PM
Hitler and Castro were great public speakers, I know that much. It doesnt prove anything, I will concede that it is a definite benefit to be able to articulate your beliefs and thoughts well in public, it is not the end all though

No, it's not the end all. There's a difference between sufficient and necessary. It's not sufficient, but I do consider it necessary.

If you can't articulate, you can't be an leader. People just don't follow folks who stumble and bumble like a Miss Teen USA contestant.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:22 PM
I dont have a problem with that, my original point was that her stumbles in interviews and debates do not make her unintelligent or unqualified

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:27 PM
Youve got Palin running for VP who isnt a great public speaker thus far but in her political career she has accomplished much even if it is at a smaller level

You don't understand. I can tolerate 'not great.' But I do demand competence. Palin's performance thus far has me believing it's far more likely that she's incompetent than not.


Youve got Obama running for POTUS who IS a GREAT public speaker, but what the fudge has he done in his career? As the likely future president, shouldnt you be able to name 10 things that he has done that held some significance?

The problem you're having is that you think that experience is just that important. It's not.

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:28 PM
I dont have a problem with that, my original point was that her stumbles in interviews and debates do not make her unintelligent or unqualified

Unintelligent? I'll grant that you may be right on that.

Unqualified? No, it does make her unqualified. If she can't show that she can think on her feet under pressure, she's unqualified. That's one of the most important qualities for a head of state to have. (IMO). The fact that the McCain campaign is hiding her from the media instead of trotting her out to show that she can do so is, to me, a confirmation of her inability.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:32 PM
You don't understand. I can tolerate 'not great.' But I do demand competence. Palin's performance thus far has me believing it's far more likely that she's incompetent than not.



The problem you're having is that you think that experience is just that important. It's not.

so you responded with more criticisms of Palin which is fine, but you didnt respond to Obama...what has he accomplished that qualifies him for POTUS?

A one term senator that hasnt authored a single piece of legislation is all I see, tell me where im wrong?

Partial Qualifier
10/8/2008, 09:35 PM
Youre not getting it, Collier.

The ability to lie with fluidity and deflect criticism by making stuff up on-the-fly is PARAMOUNT. That's what this country DESPERATELY NEEDS.

Get with the program.

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:36 PM
so you responded with more criticisms of Palin which is fine, but you didnt respond to Obama...what has he accomplished that qualifies him for POTUS?

A one term senator that hasnt authored a single piece of legislation is all I see, tell me where im wrong?

The guy is articulating a vision that is clearly getting votes. He can deliver a speech that inspires people. He's a constitutional scholar. And I happen to agree with him on a lot of stuff.

You'll notice, I'm just not all that worried about experience. Look to history; there have been plenty of folks who have been pretty damn good leaders with less than that starting out.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:38 PM
Still waiting on what he is going to do? what exactly is his vision, "change"? Change what? I have said he is a great speaker, what else? I dont care about experience, I care about what his so called vision is and how he will accomplish it. I honestly havent had one Obama fan answer this, It is an honest question on my part, not smart azzedness

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:40 PM
I think the simplest way for me to put it is as follows: If you lack experience, you can hire it.

It's just not that important.

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 09:48 PM
I dont care about experience, I care about what his so called vision is and how he will accomplish it. I honestly havent had one Obama fan answer this, It is an honest question on my part, not smart azzedness

If you don't care about experience, why hammer on it so much?

Okay, I'll humor you. Basically, his platform is old school populist movement stuff. The kind of stuff that used to get you elected in Oklahoma about 50-70 years ago.

This is the kind of political philosophy I was raised on.

As such, it appeals to me.

Pretty simple, really.

As far as how, unless it's something that's clearly rediculous, I consider that a red herring. Where there's a will, there's a way. When Kennedy called for a man on the moon by the end of the decade, was the response, "Pshaw, how silly. How on earth are we going to do that? Stupid naive kid." No, it was taken as a challenge and we tackled it.

The question is, really, does the guy have the will and fortitude to see it through, the ability to find the right people for the job, and the wisdom to change course or call it off if it turns out to be a bad idea. How is very unimportant compared to these things.

Collier11
10/8/2008, 09:57 PM
A man on the moon is a goal or a plan, populist movement is nothing concrete other than a name

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 10:03 PM
A man on the moon is a goal or a plan, populist movement is nothing concrete other than a name

He's got a website. If you want to know his platform, go read it.

And for what it's worth, 'populist movement' in Oklahoma from the time period I mentioned is more concrete than just a name. When you say 'conservative movement in the United States during the 1990s', you know approximately what's being talked about. Same thing with 'populist movement in Oklahoma about 50-70 years ago.'

PDXsooner
10/8/2008, 10:39 PM
she probably has more education than you do.

Oh yea, you try speaking in front of millions of people and see how 'gathered' you are

yeah? what's your point? surely you don't want me to be the next president. i sure the hell wouldn't want me to be the next president.

PDXsooner
10/8/2008, 10:40 PM
kind of leader you can be...you guys really do buy into the liberal media crap.


oh, the irony!!

Collier11
10/8/2008, 10:41 PM
why not? Vaevictus doesnt care about experience as long as you have a vision ;)

Vaevictis
10/8/2008, 10:47 PM
why not? Vaevictus doesnt care about experience as long as you have a vision ;)

Not caring is not the same as assigning it low weight. :)

LosAngelesSooner
10/9/2008, 02:04 AM
I love it when you people attack someone who you dont even knows intelligence, she probably has more education than you do. be against her principles and beliefs all you want. Oh yea, you try speaking in front of millions of people and see how 'gathered' you areI'll do it. And do a MUCH better job than she.

And I have more education than she does.

Can I be President? :rolleyes:

LosAngelesSooner
10/9/2008, 02:10 AM
so you responded with more criticisms of Palin which is fine, but you didnt respond to Obama...what has he accomplished that qualifies him for POTUS?

A one term senator that hasnt authored a single piece of legislation is all I see, tell me where im wrong?Well, to be fair, first off you are wrong about his having never authored a single piece of legislation. :O

SoonerKnight
10/9/2008, 02:17 AM
shouldn't the question be is affordable health care a right? These companies are charging 200-300 times what it cost them! It is not a free market with healthcare. ou seen what they charge for an aspirin?

Condescending Sooner
10/9/2008, 09:17 AM
Obama supporters remind me of the story The Emperors New Clothes. It's the "cool" thing to do, and anyone who doesn't agree is ignorant or hasn't seen the light.

They are so blinded by the rhetoric and the hysteria that they are ignoring the many warning signs that he will be a disaster this country and for an already struggling economy. I think he will further divide the country by insisting on the redistribution of wealth.

How many times during his speeches and debates, has he said, "it isn't fair"? Well Obama, life isn't always fair, especially when you think you can drop out of school, sit your fat *** on the couch, and wonder why your right to paid health insurance isn't fulfilled.

JohnnyMack
10/9/2008, 09:52 AM
Obama supporters remind me of the story The Emperors New Clothes. It's the "cool" thing to do, and anyone who doesn't agree is ignorant or hasn't seen the light.

They are so blinded by the rhetoric and the hysteria that they are ignoring the many warning signs that he will be a disaster this country and for an already struggling economy. I think he will further divide the country by insisting on the redistribution of wealth.

How many times during his speeches and debates, has he said, "it isn't fair"? Well Obama, life isn't always fair, especially when you think you can drop out of school, sit your fat *** on the couch, and wonder why your right to paid health insurance isn't fulfilled.

McCain supporters have developed a dichotomy that purports that if you suppport Obama you must be an idiot. There is no alternative.

I believe that for too long Republicans have followed the What's the matter with Kansas? doctrine that preys on middle America's emotional beliefs as opposed to their financial interests. I think that the policies set forth by the Republican party benefit those with wealth along with large corporations. We're told the wealth with trickle down, but it never does. The wealth is shifted off-shore and the <scary sounds>corporate tax rates</scary sounds> are avoided by loopholes designed by R legislators and slick accountants. The money never makes it down to where it is claimed it will go. But a middle class, middle America worker will "cling to his guns or his religion" and continue to vote for people like Jim Inhofe, who doesn't serve people like you and me that have to work for a living, rather he takes the money from big businesses (oil), stays on the Government tit, protects the money that got him where he is and then tells "Joe Six Pack" that you shouldn't vote for a Democrat because he doesn't represent your "traditional family values" and people are unfortunately blinded by that notion.

Condescending Sooner
10/9/2008, 10:20 AM
I love how some of your statements are taken directly from the messiah. I guess you never took any economic courses in school, but punishing corporations and increasing taxes during an economic slowdown are the opposite of what needs to be done. And before you spout "95% of americans will get a tax cut" spare me. The people who pay most of the taxes in this country will see an increase.

You are still upset the trickle down didn't come down to you? I am willing to bet you have done very well in the last 8 years economically unless you are a total moron. Do you hope to gain something personally by penalizing the rich and the corporations? Is that your right?

And the Obama supporters far more likely to call someone uneducated, racist, or in your words, "clinging to guns and religion" as McCain supporters.

JohnnyMack
10/9/2008, 10:32 AM
I love how some of your statements are taken directly from the messiah.

That was more than a little on purpose. ;)

soonerscuba
10/9/2008, 10:45 AM
If Obama is elected and the economy turns around, the Republican Party is going to be in a world of hurt, like 40 years in the desert world of hurt. That said, if it does, it probably won't be Obama's fault one way or antother. I truly believe that America's future lies in alternative energy, and Obama is the candidate that will most likely provide a fostering environment for that industry.

I think you have to be pretty partisan to think that everybody that votes for a particualar candidate is "blind". This type of thinking isn't academic and certainly isn't a reflection of reality. However, I will concede that there is a very large segment of straight ticket voters that this concept applies to both parties, espcially in strong holds such as OK or NY.

JohnnyMack
10/9/2008, 10:56 AM
Do you hope to gain something personally by penalizing the rich and the corporations? Is that your right?


Is it the right of a corporation to not paying any corporate taxes due to tax breaks and loopholes? Is it ok for a corporation to receive gubmint handouts but not pay in their fair share? Tax breaks combined with big spending lead to debt. Debt leads to a devalued currency. Why we don't adopt some sort of tariff, like the one Buffet proposed is beyond me.

http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/2y?usdcny=x

Condescending Sooner
10/9/2008, 12:49 PM
If Obama is elected and the economy turns around, the Republican Party is going to be in a world of hurt, like 40 years in the desert world of hurt. That said, if it does, it probably won't be Obama's fault one way or antother. .

Yeah, and you haven't blamed Bush for any issues related to the economy, huh?

Condescending Sooner
10/9/2008, 12:50 PM
Is it the right of a corporation to not paying any corporate taxes due to tax breaks and loopholes? Is it ok for a corporation to receive gubmint handouts but not pay in their fair share? Tax breaks combined with big spending lead to debt. Debt leads to a devalued currency. Why we don't adopt some sort of tariff, like the one Buffet proposed is beyond me.

http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/2y?usdcny=x

Is that an answer to the question?

JohnnyMack
10/9/2008, 01:35 PM
Do you hope to gain something personally by penalizing the rich and the corporations? Is that your right?


I can't answer that first question as I think the question is phrased in a manner that isn't reflective of my beliefs. I think that we allow too many loopholes, tax breaks and tax shelters for big corporations and I think it's too easy to shift their wealth offshore. If you think that point of view is me "personally penalizing the rich and the corporations" that's your prerogative. God knows no one is going to change anyone's mind around here. :)

def_lazer_fc
10/9/2008, 07:48 PM
The only qualification for being potus for you guys is a) is he/she pretty? and b) can he/she speak in public? She passes on both counts.

did dean just unintentionally call Obama pretty? that's sweet.

def_lazer_fc
10/9/2008, 07:52 PM
once again, do you know the circumstances behind that...what does it matter.

I started off at uco, went to ou, back to uco, then back to OU. Does that make my degree from OU any less earned or make me any less educated. This is week sauce guys

no, but....and no offense...i wouldn't want you running the country either. :rolleyes:

def_lazer_fc
10/9/2008, 07:54 PM
i mean seriously! anybody on here in charge of hiring at their respective place of employment? job interviews, etc? if palin walked in with the education she has, and performed in front of you the way she did in front of gibson, couric, etc., chances are she wouldn't be getting a call back.