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Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:03 PM
PBS sound is better.
Get 'em Jim (Lehrer)

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:07 PM
Glad JM showed up.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:09 PM
I'm glad that DC seems to be taking a deep breath before rushing into a bailout plan.

SicEmBaylor
9/26/2008, 08:12 PM
McCain sounds shaky and nervous. Obama may be a bit too aggressive right out of the gate.

SCOUT
9/26/2008, 08:13 PM
To BHO: Do support this plan? He meanders around about how we got in to this mess and that regulation isn't all bad.
To JSM: Will you vote for this plan? Well, I think...
To JSM: Will you vote for this plan? Yes. He then expounded on his thoughts.

Why not press both of them to actually answer a question?

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:14 PM
JL wants them to talk to one another.
So far, no luck.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:15 PM
SCOUT, I heard JSM's answer to the "will you vote" question as "I hope so."

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:16 PM
JSM has a good line about Obama's pork barrel spending and how much he's asked for related to how many days he's been in office.

BO is gonna hit back now, no?

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:19 PM
I wish JL would ask them both about their disastrous choices for running mates.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:23 PM
Mccain is sounding better thus far although I do hear the nervousness in his voice

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:24 PM
McCain is doing better than I thought he would.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:26 PM
BO is now talking to JM. Calling him "John."

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:26 PM
"What are you going to have to give up..."
GREAT QUESTION!

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 08:27 PM
BO seems to be the one almost losing his temper .

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:28 PM
If Mccains facts are straight, he is making obama look bad about his spending

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 08:29 PM
Where are the usual donk posters?

In front of the TV in a trance? Yes oh great one, yes we will spread your word, yes we honor and obey you, yes you will deliver us from all that is evil...

Turd_Ferguson
9/26/2008, 08:30 PM
JM is stomp'n ace!

lexsooner
9/26/2008, 08:30 PM
I stayed home to listen to these rehearsed sound bites (both of them)??? Ho hum.

Turd_Ferguson
9/26/2008, 08:31 PM
Does Jim L. have teeth:confused:

SCOUT
9/26/2008, 08:32 PM
SCOUT, I heard JSM's answer to the "will you vote" question as "I hope so."

It was both actually. I am glad to see BHO being held to the fire to answer the question about what he would give up.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:33 PM
I stayed home to listen to these rehearsed sound bites (both of them)??? Ho hum.

That's about what I expected.
We need enough debates that the stump speeches will have to be abandoned.

Are y'all watching the same debate I am? I'm not seeing this one-sided JM thing you are.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:33 PM
Im seeing Obama not giving straight answers, JM holding him the the fire, and BO getting pissed off and not having straight answers...what are you seeing? LOL

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:33 PM
Where are the usual donk posters?



Present.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 08:34 PM
Are y'all watching the same debate I am? I'm not seeing this one-sided JM thing you are.

Well yeah, you're under the spell. :P

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:35 PM
I also see BO's answers being more scripted

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:35 PM
Im seeing Obama not giving straight answers, JM holding him the the fire, and BO getting pissed off and not having straight answers...what are you seeing? LOL

A bit of a repeat of '04. The Elephant is trying to make things simple black and white and the Donkey is trying to talk about nuance. Good line about not using a hatchet when you need a scalpel. Actually, I like JM's idea about a spending freeze excepting veteran's benefits and healthcare quite a bit.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 08:36 PM
BO talks a lot without saying jack ****.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:36 PM
Im more moderate than conservative and I started off liking BO, but he is starting to worry me

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:37 PM
Well yeah, you're under the spell. :P

To be clear, I like both these guys. The VP debate may make me throw up in my mouth a bunch because I don't like either of the running mates very well.

Every time JM says "veteran/s" I like him even more. We need a flag icon.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 08:38 PM
Hmm, haven't see that Fox News graphic asking viewers to text in who they thought won the debate. You know, the one that flashed 10 minutes into the debate. ;)

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:38 PM
I am starting to get worried about Palin, the girl cant answer a question although maybe she is a quick study as laura bush says, lets hope so

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 08:39 PM
Is Brack Sayin JSMs Name wrong on purpose ?
Or is he jusy confused ?

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:39 PM
JM was awesome about opposing GWB on prisoner torture and GITMO.
Reminded me of McCain circa 1998. The one I liked even more than this newer bought and paid for version.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:40 PM
Is Brack Sayin JSMs Name wrong on purpose ?
Or is he jusy confused ?

He calls him "John." What's wrong about that?

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 08:40 PM
You know, I'm glad to see McCain push back on the whole 'John McSame' meme.

Just remember, both sides, that America would do just fine no matter which guy winds up winning the Presidency. Afterall, we survived both Clinton and Bush. ;)

Veritas
9/26/2008, 08:40 PM
Stupid CSPAN. I had it set to record so that I could start watching at halftime...then they switch at the last minute to CSPAN2.

SCOUT
9/26/2008, 08:41 PM
He calls him "John." What's wrong about that?

He called him Tom too.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:42 PM
Even Bill-O agrees with BHO that we should have been in the 'Stan instead of Iraq.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 08:42 PM
"We took our eye off the ball."
--John Kerry, 2004 ;)

lexsooner
9/26/2008, 08:42 PM
That's about what I expected.
We need enough debates that the stump speeches will have to be abandoned.

Are y'all watching the same debate I am? I'm not seeing this one-sided JM thing you are.

I see it as a push, without much of any impact on the race. I also see it as scripted and boring and nothing out of the ordinary from either candidate. The VP debate will be even more boring. I heard the format is different, more like the debates of old, without any exchanges. People see what they want to see, but these debates won't sway too many who have not yet been swayed. Sorry, but neither will come out a "winner" just because they made a few zingers at this debate.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:43 PM
I see it as a push, without much of any impact on the race. I also see it as scripted and boring and nothing out of the ordinary from either candidate. The VP debate will be even more boring. I heard the format is different, more like the debates of old, without any exchanges. People see what they want to see, but these debates won't sway too many who have not yet been swayed. Sorry, but neither will come out a "winner" just because they made a few zingers at this debate.

Then why ya watching ;)

Veritas
9/26/2008, 08:43 PM
Obviously I'm biased, but Obama comes across rather arrogantly.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:43 PM
Even Bill-O agrees with BHO that we should have been in the 'Stan instead of Iraq.

most people agree with that now, but most people agreed with it then...hindsight

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:45 PM
Difference between a tactic and a strategy?

Turd_Ferguson
9/26/2008, 08:46 PM
BO has some ears on him....look's like a volkswagon goin down the road with it's door's open.

lexsooner
9/26/2008, 08:46 PM
Then why ya watching ;)

Cause I'm as stoopid as the 40+ million others watching. Actually this does convince me not to waste my time watching the upcoming debates, so I suppose something meaningful was accomplished tonight.

lexsooner
9/26/2008, 08:47 PM
JM's facial expressions when Obama is talking are kinda amusing. Those I have never seen before.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:47 PM
Difference between a tactic and a strategy?

Zinger!

Turd_Ferguson
9/26/2008, 08:48 PM
Notice BO is wearing the US Flag pin on his lapel.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:49 PM
BO has some ears on him....look's like a volkswagon goin down the road with it's door's open.

Heh! He does have some big ol' ears. :D

Veritas
9/26/2008, 08:49 PM
JM's facial expressions when Obama is talking are kinda amusing. Those I have never seen before.
Yeah, it's like he thinks Obama is an idiot and wants to physically kick his *** and is barely restraining himself.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 08:49 PM
In the 15 seconds I just watched Brack does look sort of pissed. I don't know if it's the debate or his 3-pointer wasn't falling today.

SCOUT
9/26/2008, 08:49 PM
Notice BO is wearing the US Flag pin on his lapel.

heh. I didn't notice that. Nothing like sticking to your principles.

SicEmBaylor
9/26/2008, 08:50 PM
I'm a guy who likes nuance. In general, I think Obama has a slight upper-hand tonight. I will say though that I think McCain is blowing Obama away for in arguing broad principles while Obama clearly has McCain's number on the details. I'm enjoying this debate a great deal.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 08:50 PM
Yeah, it's like he thinks Obama is an idiot and wants to physically kick his *** and is barely restraining himself.

Oh GAWD, I'd pay to see that! :D

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:50 PM
Notice BO is wearing the US Flag pin on his lapel.

And notice JSM isn't! OMG, he must be the debbil. My poor inbox tomorrow is gonna get creamed about this red herring.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 08:50 PM
My 3 pointer wasn't falling today, either.

So I could understand if that's the reason why. ;)

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:51 PM
I'm a guy who likes nuance. In general, I think Obama has a slight upper-hand tonight. I will say though that I think McCain is blowing Obama away for in arguing broad principles while Obama clearly has McCain's number on the details. I'm enjoying this debate a great deal.

Good assessment of the show so far, Sic'Em.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 08:52 PM
Tollybahn.

Must be a close relative of Terra.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 08:52 PM
Heh, Obama really doesn't know the difference between tactic and stragegy. Misallocation of troops is a tactical error, not a strategic one.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 08:54 PM
My 3 pointer wasn't falling today, either.

So I could understand if that's the reason why. ;)

Oh I hear that! I started lifting again two days ago and my triceps are sore to the touch. Played havoc with my 3-point shooting today.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:55 PM
Good point by JSM about "you don't say that out loud. If you have to do things, you do them."

BHO pronounces some foreign words properly, but not others.
Why is it Afghanistan and Pock-ee-stahn?

Rogue
9/26/2008, 08:56 PM
BHO is going after JSM's credibility on a regular basis now.
It's a good move. Tactically or strategically I don't know, but it's a good move. ;)

CrimsonandCreamForever
9/26/2008, 08:57 PM
Dear Senator Obama,

"Going into Iraq was a mistake and we shouldn't be there." = http://coreygilmore.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg


Answer the question as to where we should be going from here.

Thanks,
the voters

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 08:57 PM
He calls him "John." What's wrong about that?

Ya musta missed the time he said JIM er John :D
or tom

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 08:57 PM
Or strategerically.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 08:58 PM
BO doesnt have a chance in hell at debating mccain about foreign policy and it shows

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:00 PM
Am I watching the same debate as you f'in hillbillies?

Some folks are making some strange "observations."

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:00 PM
just the correct ones

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:01 PM
BO doesnt have a chance in hell at debating mccain about foreign policy and it shows

I couldn't disagree more.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 09:01 PM
BHO seems more comfortable at this whole debate thing. JSM seems annoyed that he has to deal with someone he considers a pissant.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:02 PM
Color me banana.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:02 PM
BHO seems more comfortable at this whole debate thing. JSM seems annoyed that he has to deal with someone he considers a pissant.

agreed

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:02 PM
McCain is losing steam. It's been an hour and he seems fatigued and annoyed.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:02 PM
Touche on the bracelet.

But I daresay that there have been American deaths that have been in vain.

Vietnam comes to mind.

Sooner5030
9/26/2008, 09:03 PM
Difference between a tactic and a strategy?

Tactics would be like how the Soldier dismounts a vehicle or how a squad clears a house.

Operations would be how Battalions and Brigades maneuver and control their companies on the ground.

Strategy is more like a theater level philosophy (eg surge troops into the streets not so much the technique they use on the streets).

Clear as mud?

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:03 PM
I couldn't disagree more.

you really think BO knows more about foreign policy and how to deal with these people than JM? Sure, BO can talk around the issues in circles but Mccain knows what he is saying about strategy, tactics, how to deal with wars and tyrany, etc..

Veritas
9/26/2008, 09:03 PM
McCain is losing steam. It's been an hour and he seems fatigued and annoyed.
Yeah, BHO is far more personable.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:03 PM
Stunned Senator (JSM). Re:what is the threat from Iran.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:04 PM
Touche on the bracelet.

But I daresay that there have been American deaths that have been in vain.

Vietnam comes to mind.

the war may have been in vain but not the American lives lost

SicEmBaylor
9/26/2008, 09:04 PM
Stunned Senator (JSM). Re:what is the threat from Iran.

He looked like a deer in the headlights. His eventual answer is so far strong though.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:05 PM
Brack aint gonna win Talkin about How to deal with enimies

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:06 PM
I should go start a thread where I predict what peeps will say about the debate based on previous observations of their views. I bet I could get mighty close.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 09:06 PM
BHO like to go back to the "Iraq was a bad idea" theme.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:06 PM
you really think BO knows more about foreign policy and how to deal with these people than JM? Sure, BO can talk around the issues in circles but Mccain knows what he is saying about strategy, tactics, how to deal with wars and tyrany, etc..


I don't know which one knows more about it. I think the kid that edited the Harvard Law Review is holding his own with the guy that graduated 4th from the bottom of his class in terms of explaining where they stand and how they approach foreign policy. As far as dealing with other people, JSM jokes about not being Miss Congeniality and he doesn't connect well with other leaders. Diplomacy edge?

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:07 PM
Sounds like both are telling lies and half-truths and each has to correct his opponent.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:08 PM
BHO did well with this Iran question.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:08 PM
Just call him Gorilla Boy, John. ;)

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:08 PM
Harvard Law Review prepares one for dealing with foreign policy? :confused:

SicEmBaylor
9/26/2008, 09:08 PM
BHO did well with this Iran question.

I agree. I totally agree with Obama's position on the diplomatic strategy as well.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:10 PM
Kissinger is one of JSM's advisors? :cool:

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:10 PM
you agree with meeting with Iran without preconditions, that scares me

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:10 PM
Sounds like both are telling lies and half-truths and each has to correct his opponent.

Unfortunately, they have to, given people's penchants for not doing their own fact checking.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 09:11 PM
If these guys were coaches, JSM would be the hardass that made you run wind sprints after the game for every false start. BHO would be the coach that made you watch tape and worked to talk to you about how you needed to learn to listen to the count.

This has gotten boring. Back to football.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:11 PM
Harvard Law Review prepares one for dealing with foreign policy? :confused:

Your question to me was about who knows more. I'm saying BHO isn't short on knowledge. You might want to argue about experience instead.

edit: The first part of your question was...

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:12 PM
I'm surprised that neither one looks at the camera when they answer a question. They look at the moderator.


I would think Americans would appreciate an answer straight at the camera.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:12 PM
If these guys were coaches, JSM would be the hardass that made you run wind sprints after the game for every false start. BHO would be the coach that made you watch tape and worked to talk to you about how you needed to learn to listen to the count.

This has gotten boring. Back to football.

I hate watchin tape...another reason to vote for JSM. :D

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:12 PM
I don't even have a seal yet. :D

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:13 PM
Presidential Seal zinger.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:13 PM
Your question to me was about who knows more. I'm saying BHO isn't short on knowledge. You might want to argue about experience instead.

I'm not the one that ask that. I already know: JSM knows more, has more experience, and Brack is a better talker.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:13 PM
Your question to me was about who knows more. I'm saying BHO isn't short on knowledge. You might want to argue about experience instead.

edit: The first part of your question was...

He is a smart guy, that doesnt mean he would know how to handle the issues as they arose or deal with those tyrants as they tried to kill people

SicEmBaylor
9/26/2008, 09:13 PM
you agree with meeting with Iran without preconditions, that scares me

Why is that scary? Answer to me what the consequence of meeting without "preconditions" would be? I mean good lord, so what? Meeting with someone unconditionally doesn't mean we're selling the store. If the talks don't work then fine...we can walk out. There is very little to lose by conducting diplomacy. I don't think it's effective, but I don't think it would hurt either.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:15 PM
Because you dont sit with horrible people like the president of Iran and let him boost himself up without giving some concessions. What has he done to earn that?

Mccain just explained it well, "ah please" that is rediculous and dangerous

Flagstaffsooner
9/26/2008, 09:16 PM
My hatred of Obama Bin Laden just continues to grow.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:16 PM
Whose position is closer to Kissinger's? Advantage-McCain. Kissinger is HIS freaking advisor. Obama gave that one away, even though I agree with him he didn't debate that very well.

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:16 PM
I'm getting a little tired of both candidates talking over one another.

Makes me favor the ask one candidate one question, give the other time to respond, then uninterrupted rebuttals.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:17 PM
when the answer is stupid enough, it deserves to be spoken over

GrapevineSooner
9/26/2008, 09:18 PM
Why is that scary? Answer to me what the consequence of meeting without "preconditions" would be? I mean good lord, so what? Meeting with someone unconditionally doesn't mean we're selling the store. If the talks don't work then fine...we can walk out. There is very little to lose by conducting diplomacy. I don't think it's effective, but I don't think it would hurt either.

Yeah.

Color me in the camp of 'it doesn't hurt to talk to anyone'. Probably because I'm also a big fan of allowing idiots just enough rope to hang themselves with. I think everybody understands Gorilla Boy is just f***ing nuts.

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:18 PM
I'm getting a little tired of both candidates talking over one another.

Makes me favor the ask one candidate one question, give the other time to respond, then uninterrupted rebuttals.

Nah, I like it. At least they're able to directly address each other and each other's points.

The other format is junk.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:18 PM
BO is still running against GWB. Again, good strategy. Tactic. Whatever. ;)

Jerk
9/26/2008, 09:19 PM
Rogue...come on, dude.

RE: "Fourth from the bottom of his class" versus "Harvard law review editor."

One went on to be a decorated war vet, and the other a community organizer. I'll let you decide which of these is a more valuable contribution to his country.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:19 PM
Good line about JSM looking into Putin's eyes and seeing KGB.

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:19 PM
Preconditions for negotiations are like a car dealer asking you for $50 to start trying to sell you a car.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:20 PM
Rogue...come on, dude.

RE: "Fourth from the bottom of his class" versus "Harvard law review editor."

One went on to be a decorated war vet, and the other a community organizer. I'll let you decide which of these is a more valuable contribution to his country.

Dems are the same ones that make fun of GW for being an idiot even though he has a Yale degree but BO is some genius because of his education

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:21 PM
Preconditions for negotiations are like a car dealer asking you for $50 to start trying to sell you a car.

car dealers arent trying to murder innocent people

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:23 PM
car dealers arent trying to murder innocent people

Attaching preconditions hasn't done a goddamn thing to stop them, either. "Oh, fine, you don't want to deal with us? Cool. We'll just continue doing what we're doing. When you're finished holding your breath, let us know."

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:23 PM
and thats why we dont talk to them, THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS, pretty easy concept

CORNholio
9/26/2008, 09:24 PM
Wow, didn't realize how arrogant Obama's demeanor was. He comes across as a Denzel Washington type. Nobody loves Obama more than himself. Bet he talks to himself just to admire his own voice. The intermitten tones of attitude and inability to wait his turn show a bit of immaturity.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:24 PM
car dealers arent trying to murder innocent people


It's OK though, Brack edited the Harvard Law Review, he's up to the challenge. :P

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:24 PM
Rogue...come on, dude.

RE: "Fourth from the bottom of his class" versus "Harvard law review editor."

One went on to be a decorated war vet, and the other a community organizer. I'll let you decide which of these is a more valuable contribution to his country.

It was in response to the challenge about who knows more. Attacking Obama's smarts isn't going to fly with me. The guy has the brains.

JSM is a national treasure, a patriot, and a real American hero. I love the guy. He was better for my country when he was really a maverick. Until he got thrown under the GOP bus in South Carolina and sold out to the elephants. I still love the guy, just not as much as I used to.

They are both into holding the current administration accountable and I'm glad. JSM taking on the POW abuse and GITMO was a flash of the old McCain. BHO's rock steady position that going to Iraq was wrong is part of what I love about that guy.

Too bad neither one can pick a running mate worthy to run with them.

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:25 PM
and thats why we dont talk to them, THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS, pretty easy concept

We don't negotiate with terrorists... except for when we do.

Got it.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:26 PM
BHO's rock steady position that going to Iraq was wrong is part of what I love about that guy.

Too bad neither one can pick a running mate worthy to run with them.

That isnt what this presidency is about, that decision has already been made. Why does it matter?

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:26 PM
We don't negotiate with terrorists... except for when we do.

Got it.

Theres that liberal arrogance that we all know and love

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 09:27 PM
JM's facial expressions when Obama is talking are kinda amusing. Those I have never seen before.

Those Depends are scratchy.....

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:27 PM
Those Depends are scratchy.....

:D

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:28 PM
Theres that liberal arrogance that we all know and love

The fact is, we negotiate with terrorists all the time. We like to pretend that we don't. But we sure as hell do.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:28 PM
I'm getting a little tired of both candidates talking over one another.

Makes me favor the ask one candidate one question, give the other time to respond, then uninterrupted rebuttals.

Brack seems to be doing it more to me

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:28 PM
That isnt what this presidency is about, that decision has already been made. Why does it matter?

Really?
4,000 American lives. Plus lots of money, squandered reputation with the rest of the world, and missing out on having enough resources to send to Afghanistan when we should have.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:30 PM
My point is that the war started 5 years ago, why is BO still arguing that we shouldnt have gone to war...we all see that in hindsight but we had great intelligence(that ended up being inaccurate) that said that we should have went.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 09:31 PM
My point is that the war started 5 years ago, why is BO still arguing that we shouldnt have gone to war...we all see that in hindsight but we had great intelligence(that ended up being inaccurate) that said that we should have went.
Because he's probably anticipating that hammering that point over and over will win him votes.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:31 PM
Sic'Em, what's your take?
I see this as mostly a draw. If I had to say, so far, who has won I'd say JSM made huge ground with his strong suit, namely STRAIGHT TALK.

And BHO got too wordy, too dry, and sounds too much like a politician for most of my neighbors to pay attention to. I like the fact that he doesn't speak in sound bytes. He's got a bit of John Kerry's affliction of failing to talk plainly when given the chance. Just once in awhile would be an improvement.

CrimsonandCreamForever
9/26/2008, 09:31 PM
My point is that the war started 5 years ago, why is BO still arguing that we shouldnt have gone to war...we all see that in hindsight but we had great intelligence(that ended up being inaccurate) that said that we should have went.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Sure, we had bad intelligence, and Obama voted against the war in the first place, but how does that affect us now?

SCOUT
9/26/2008, 09:33 PM
That's exactly what I was thinking. Sure, we had bad intelligence, and Obama voted against the war in the first place, but how does that affect us now?

Did the Illinois state legislature vote for or against the war in Iraq?

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 09:33 PM
Theres that liberal arrogance that we all know and love

Settle down before you pop an aneurysm.

CrimsonandCreamForever
9/26/2008, 09:35 PM
Did the Illinois state legislature vote for or against the war in Iraq?

My bad. I meant he said he was opposed to it at the beginning.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:35 PM
JSM has miles of credibility on taking care of veterans. He's walked that walk for years. And just said "I love them and they know I love them."
I am blown away by how well he did tonight.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:37 PM
I'm still very optimistic. These guys would both be good for my country.

King Crimson
9/26/2008, 09:37 PM
i listened on the radio. and i think McCain makes up some points on the outcome.

i did think were both pretty overt in a bad way to insert talking point/comments in "out of the flow" statements.

sounded like Obama was uncomfortable for about the first half hour and McCain intoning platitudes. too many specifics for Obama is probably an overcompensation for hearing he stands for nothing. i thought McCain was a little over the top at times.

be interested to see how the "facts" check out.

i think Obama should move on from the "Main Street" to "Wall Street" thing. McCain's "Maverick and fellow Maverick" thing was too much.

Veritas
9/26/2008, 09:37 PM
JSM has miles of credibility on taking care of veterans. He's walked that walk for years. And just said "I love them and they know I love them."
I am blown away by how well he did tonight.
He did MUCH better than I anticapeted he would.

I say advantage BHO because people will rapidly forget the words and remember the demeanor. BHO is more likeable.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:37 PM
JSM has miles of credibility on taking care of veterans. He's walked that walk for years. And just said "I love them and they know I love them."
I am blown away by how well he did tonight.

Glad to see you coming around. Why not just come on over to the winning side while there's still room for ya. :D

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:38 PM
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!!!!

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:42 PM
Really?
4,000 American lives. Plus lots of money, squandered reputation with the rest of the world, and missing out on having enough resources to send to Afghanistan when we should have.

Bro we already there
The Big thing is How we Get out without Dissing the troops and the lives lost .:rolleyes:

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:42 PM
Glad to see you coming around. Why not just come on over to the winning side while there's still room for ya. :D

Coming around? I've been a JSM fan since the '90s. I just like him less than I used to. I like BHO's politics better. I'm for universal healthcare, paying less taxes than bazillionaires, and pretty much disagree with everything George W. Bush has done.

Partial Qualifier
9/26/2008, 09:43 PM
McCain just schooled Obama for 97 minutes. That was fun to watch!

Did you se the "umm, what can I say here??" look on Stephanopolis' face? "Obama did a better job at looking at his opponent?"

Classic!

I was prepared to see Obama win this but I guess I forgot how much more experience McCain has. One of these guys is obviously ready to be pres.. the other, while very intelligent, needs some more seasoning

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:44 PM
Bro we already there
The Big thing is How we Get out without Dissing the troops and the lives lost .:rolleyes:

While I understand that I don't see that sticking with the mistake until it isn't such a mistake is the solution. The poker analogy is that it's usually not smart to "throw good money after bad."

Partial Qualifier
9/26/2008, 09:45 PM
Im seeing Obama not giving straight answers, JM holding him the the fire, and BO getting pissed off and not having straight answers...what are you seeing? LOL

that was the MO of much of this debate.

McCain: "You should've seen this thing..... FESTOONED with Christmas Ornaments....."

that was serious LOL

CORNholio
9/26/2008, 09:47 PM
Obama is just full of words. Rehearsed pretty conceptual phrases that are in fact as McCain has stated 'naive' and strictly political manuevers to get him elected. He should just mail everyone a cookie that says vote for me. His whole platform is just to focus on the errors of the current president and try to spread that blame to as many people as he can while stepping back and saying I had nothing to do with it so I am better. When in fact he had nothing to do with it because he was a non-player until some top level dems decided people would love him souly because of his race and his ability to read a good speach.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:49 PM
Coming around? I've been a JSM fan since the '90s. I just like him less than I used to. I like BHO's politics better. I'm for universal healthcare, paying less taxes than bazillionaires, and pretty much disagree with everything George W. Bush has done.

Argggg, I'm so much against universal health care I can't even tell ya.

...and Brack will raise taxes on everyone, he's a donk and that's what they do.

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:49 PM
CBS is comparing this to Nixon-JFK. Obama came across as relaxed. McCain came across as old, cranky, and pi$$ed off.

Just reporting what they said.

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 09:49 PM
McCain just schooled Obama for 97 minutes. That was fun to watch!

Did you se the "umm, what can I say here??" look on Stephanopolis' face? "Obama did a better job at looking at his opponent?"

Classic!

I was prepared to see Obama win this but I guess I forgot how much more experience McCain has. One of these guys is obviously ready to be pres.. the other, while very intelligent, needs some more seasoning


It was like watching Bush Jr. as Bush Sr. You can tell Obama gets under his skin.

I think Obama held his own.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:49 PM
While I understand that I don't see that sticking with the mistake until it isn't such a mistake is the solution. The poker analogy is that it's usually not smart to "throw good money after bad."

But we have a Full house,
Stay the course , get us out , But do it with Honor .
A set timetable just gives the Jane fondas of the world a Chance to keep messin with us .:mad:

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:50 PM
I will say that McCain's suggestion of a spending freeze in response to the economic crisis shows that he hasn't studied the causes of the Great Depression.

And likewise the fact that Barack didn't call him on it.

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:50 PM
NBC is wondering why Obama didn't elaborate on the economy which is a winning issue for him.

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 09:51 PM
And despite being a no good Aggie, I find myself liking Boone Pickens more and more.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:52 PM
It was like watching Bush Jr. as Bush Sr. You can tell Obama gets under his skin.

I think Obama held his own.

Looked to me Like Brack lost his Cool and JM didnt .
jes sayin

Penguin
9/26/2008, 09:52 PM
George Will is coming on ABC in a few. This should be interesting.

Rogue
9/26/2008, 09:54 PM
I thought both looked "annoyed" too often.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:54 PM
I will say that McCain's suggestion of a spending freeze in response to the economic crisis shows that he hasn't studied the causes of the Great Depression.

And likewise the fact that Barack didn't call him on it.

Did you Miss Bracks Point ?
No country with a declining econimy has had a Great Military ?
Maybe off on that quote But Im damn close .
What about the 30s and The War effort that we as Americans Put out ?:rolleyes:

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 09:55 PM
Looked to me Like Brack lost his Cool and JM didnt .
jes sayin


You've been drinking too much of that hooch.

McCain really turned me off with his condescending remarks, continually saying "Obama just doesn't understand". Like he is 12 years old or something.

What was worse is McCain would follow up by twisting what Obama said, and then basically saying the same thing that Obama said the first time. It seemed like he was frusturated and scolding Obama like he was a child.

The character of the person, IMO, is as important as their stance on issues. And McCain seemed lacking.

-an opinion I agree with.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:56 PM
I thought both looked "annoyed" too often.

"Annoyed" Is one thing . But Brack got Peod and kept Tryin to Interupt Jm .
JMHO

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:56 PM
Because he's probably anticipating that hammering that point over and over will win him votes.

thats probably correct

Collier11
9/26/2008, 09:56 PM
Settle down before you pop an aneurysm.

that was a feeble attempt at smart azzed humor

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:57 PM
You've been drinking too much of that hooch.

McCain really turned me off with his condescending remarks, continually saying "Obama just doesn't understand". Like he is 12 years old or something.

What was worse is McCain would follow up by twisting what Obama said, and then basically saying the same thing that Obama said the first time. It seemed like he was frusturated and scolding Obama like he was a child.

The character of the person, IMO, is as important as their stance on issues. And McCain seemed lacking.-an opinion I agree with.

Brack is a child . He needed schooled :P

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:57 PM
Like he is 12 years old or something.


Well in fairness he does look like a 12 year old.

olevetonahill
9/26/2008, 09:58 PM
Well in fairness he does look like a 12 year old.

And got Schooled :D

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 09:58 PM
Brace yourselves ladies, cause that kid is going to be your next prez.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 09:59 PM
Brace yourselves ladies, cause that kid is going to be your next prez.

heh, that's funny.

How much you want to bet on it for reals?

Collier11
9/26/2008, 10:00 PM
You've been drinking too much of that hooch.

McCain really turned me off with his condescending remarks, continually saying "Obama just doesn't understand". Like he is 12 years old or something.

What was worse is McCain would follow up by twisting what Obama said, and then basically saying the same thing that Obama said the first time. It seemed like he was frusturated and scolding Obama like he was a child.

The character of the person, IMO, is as important as their stance on issues. And McCain seemed lacking.

-an opinion I agree with.

If the future POTUS doesnt understand facts and issues to do with our security it should be pointed out, no need to hold his hand

Vaevictis
9/26/2008, 10:00 PM
What about the 30s and The War effort that we as Americans Put out ?

Well, I'm not sure I'd characterize our military as 'great' during the 1930's.

I don't know that that had a lot to do with our economy though. The American character at the time was disinclined towards putting tons of money into a standing army during peacetime.

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 10:03 PM
If the future POTUS doesnt understand facts and issues to do with our security it should be pointed out, no need to hold his hand


and no need to act like your daily does of Geritol hasn't kicked in yet either...

Collier11
9/26/2008, 10:03 PM
He is old and cranky, he aint changing ;)

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 10:05 PM
heh, that's funny.

How much you want to bet on it for reals?


You should bet BRR, he's legit.

CORNholio
9/26/2008, 10:06 PM
You've been drinking too much of that hooch.

McCain really turned me off with his condescending remarks, continually saying "Obama just doesn't understand". Like he is 12 years old or something.

What was worse is McCain would follow up by twisting what Obama said, and then basically saying the same thing that Obama said the first time. It seemed like he was frusturated and scolding Obama like he was a child.

The character of the person, IMO, is as important as their stance on issues. And McCain seemed lacking.

-an opinion I agree with.

Could not disagree more. Obamas attitude showed routinely. He could not contain himself long enough to allow McCain to rebutte. And made haughty faces and seems to think speaking over his opponent is respectable. It's all about him. He is so transparent. The fact that as many people seem to be oblivious to his character flaws as there are tells me this country is in trouble anyway.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 10:06 PM
You should bet BRR, he's legit.

He and I are on the same side on this one, I don't know what we could bet on.

Penguin
9/26/2008, 10:07 PM
I find it very interesting that McCain was the only one to even mention climate change. Transcript. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/26/debate.mississippi.transcript/)

And thank God, he got it freaking RIGHT! It's CLIMATE CHANGE, NOT GLOBAL WARMING!!!!!!!

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 10:08 PM
that was a feeble attempt at smart azzed humor

That was pretty feeble by my standards. God knows my arsenal is so much better than that. Jeesh.

KC//CRIMSON
9/26/2008, 10:16 PM
Could not disagree more. Obamas attitude showed routinely. He could not contain himself long enough to allow McCain to rebutte. And made haughty faces and seems to think speaking over his opponent is respectable. It's all about him. He is so transparent. The fact that as many people seem to be oblivious to his character flaws as there are tells me this country is in trouble anyway.

Heh!

If you thought Obama was making haughty faces, then McCain looked like he was pinching one off in his Haggar's.

Partial Qualifier
9/26/2008, 10:19 PM
huh?

McCain was just smiling through much of this.

Partial Qualifier
9/26/2008, 10:21 PM
The fact that as many people seem to be oblivious to his character flaws as there are tells me this country is in trouble anyway.

the liberals will find ways to "prove" he wins these debates and would vote for him if he were a striped jackalope. Don't worry, the at-large voters who watch can tell who's the more capable leader. It's ain't that hard.

GottaHavePride
9/26/2008, 10:41 PM
You know, people on both sides of this election have, at this point, pretty much resorted to sticking fingers in their ears and shouting "LALALALALALALAWLA I'M NOT LISTENIIIIIIIIIING!!!!!"

So trying to debate any of this on here is pretty pointless. Nobody's going to change anyone else's mind.

Collier11
9/26/2008, 10:42 PM
That was pretty feeble by my standards. God knows my arsenal is so much better than that. Jeesh.

:mad: :eek: :D

GottaHavePride
9/26/2008, 10:44 PM
And THAT is the problem with our electoral system. A populace that is largely incapable of rationally listening to opposing points of view, weighing them against each other, and making a decision.

Way too much of "Caribou Barbie doesn't believe in dinosaurs!" vs "Brack Osama is a Muslim!"

Gah.

Curly Bill
9/26/2008, 10:44 PM
You know, people on both sides of this election have, at this point, pretty much resorted to sticking fingers in their ears and shouting "LALALALALALALAWLA I'M NOT LISTENIIIIIIIIIING!!!!!"

So trying to debate any of this on here is pretty pointless. Nobody's going to change anyone else's mind.

What? I can't hear you. LALALALALALALALALALA

Collier11
9/26/2008, 10:55 PM
Here is your fact checking for those interested

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_el_pr/presidential_debate_factcheck

OKC-SLC
9/26/2008, 11:28 PM
I personally doubt that this debate will do much if anything in terms of impressing voters. If you supported JM before, you probably thought he did well. If you supported BO before, you probably thought he did.

These days the campaign is so effing long that we pretty much know everything we're gonna know about each candidate.

Partial Qualifier
9/26/2008, 11:52 PM
Here is your fact checking for those interested

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_el_pr/presidential_debate_factcheck


Okay, I've been all over the "debate fact check" articles - heavily in favor of McCain, btw, but noticed something: The exact same AP article appears on several different sites -- the yahoo.com article is one of them -- but they're all attributed to different sets of AP contributors.

Why is that?

oh and I stumbled across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec3aC8ZJZTc


:D

JohnnyMack
9/27/2008, 08:31 AM
Heading into the general election the general consenus was that when the debates started McCain was going to clean Obama's clock. Many of you around here who support McCain couldn't wait for Obama to have to go off the teleprompter. Add to that that this first debate was going to focus primarily on foreign policy (McCain's perceived strength) and it was shaping up to be a turning point in the campaign, the point where JSM pulled away.

Then Wall Street shudders a week before the debate and McCain does and says some bizarre things in the days leading up to last nights meeting at Ole Miss. (Whether or not any of you McCain supporters want to admit it or not) he acted in a manner that led many to wonder if it was McCain who had the temperament to lead. Obama pulled ahead in most polls, McCain's leads in cruicial states like Ohio and Florida have all but evaporated and Obama is pulling ahead in key swing states like Colorado and even Virginia. McCain all of a sudden had his back up against a wall.

McCain had to win last night. He needed to come across looking presidential and to have Obama looking like a neophyte. It is my opinion that Obama came across as more than ready and that while I truly believe that the debate was a tie, I think that in this instance the tie goes to Obama. Now, McCain supporters, don't get all riled up. Stop and think for a second. This election is no longer about what you and I do with our votes in Oklahoma or Texas. This is now about convincing Clinton Democrats and Independent voters that Obama is ready to lead. Last night Fox News had a focus group of 27 undecided voters (14 of whom voted for Bush and 13 of them voted for Kerry) in Nevada (another big swing state) and afterwards they asked them who they were more likely to vote for now that this debate was over. 17 chose Obama and 10 chose McCain.

Veritas
9/27/2008, 09:03 AM
This is now about convincing Clinton Democrats and Independent voters that Obama is ready to lead.
Bingo.

USCMichigander
9/27/2008, 09:42 AM
McCain had to win last night. He needed to come across looking presidential and to have Obama looking like a neophyte. It is my opinion that Obama came across as more than ready and that while I truly believe that the debate was a tie, I think that in this instance the tie goes to Obama. Now, McCain supporters, don't get all riled up. Stop and think for a second. This election is no longer about what you and I do with our votes in Oklahoma or Texas. This is now about convincing Clinton Democrats and Independent voters that Obama is ready to lead. Last night Fox News had a focus group of 27 undecided voters (14 of whom voted for Bush and 13 of them voted for Kerry) in Nevada (another big swing state) and afterwards they asked them who they were more likely to vote for now that this debate was over. 17 chose Obama and 10 chose McCain.

Firstly Johnny Mack, great post! While I don't necessarily agree with all the contents of your post, it was a very good post. A poster on the board I frequent made the same points as you; "McCain had to win and didn't - the tie was an Obama win". Why wasn't there McCain domination?, this is what I posted on my board:


You can't dominate when Obama is vague about anything and everything. You simply can not dissect or analyze information or misinformation if there is no information given. Obama sticks to his talking points, delivers them eloquently, and gives you a vague idea of his plan.

To paint a picture of this, imagine this scenario: You are in an admittedly troubled situation in the Nevada desert. You know your destination, but you do not know how to get there and your car has little gas left. An aesthetically pleasing stranger approaches you on the road, and when you ask him where to go, he replies "East". Nothing more, nothing less. "East". In fact, there is nothing wrong with what he said, East is where you want to go. But how will we go there and what risk does it run?

When voters ask questions, many of them only want the right answers. "Change", "Hope", "Leave Iraq", "Punish the greedy upper class", is much of what we are hearing from Obama and his comrades. How will we accomplish much of what we are hearing from Obama? To go back to my hypothetical scenario, where "East" do we go? What should be our plan to head East?

So no, McCain didn't dominate Obama, he can't when Obama provides the equivalent of nothing. East. Change. Hope.

To be fair, McCain didn't give us a plethora of details, either, but the difference between he and Obama was noticeable to me. I wish the debate last night was focused just on one issue, and one issue alone, to give more time so we can really hear and dissect specifics from both sides of the aisle. We allow our politicians to be far too vague during campaign season and then wonder why promises are broken when they are elected officials.

If I'm far off, I apologize, I've been hoping for anything positive after you-know-what happened Thursday :( ....

Veritas
9/27/2008, 09:49 AM
If I'm far off, I apologize, I've been hoping for anything positive after you-know-what happened Thursday :( ....
Good post. Don't hold your breath for sympathy though. ;)

badger
9/27/2008, 10:55 AM
Remembering University of Washington in Seattle on this Norman gameday...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sn2JIqnZUeg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sn2JIqnZUeg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

And yes, I know what happens on 1.20.09 :D

USCMichigander
9/27/2008, 11:28 AM
Good post. Don't hold your breath for sympathy though. ;)

Well...


Scotch...might be too early to drink it, but never too early to start thinking about it.

:D

Just kidding, not of age and not of interest....

Collier11
9/27/2008, 11:45 AM
Bingo.

Its always been about that, no surprise there

Veritas
9/27/2008, 11:49 AM
Just kidding, not of age and not of interest....
Give it time, grasshoppa. :)

JohnnyMack
9/27/2008, 02:43 PM
Its always been about that, no surprise there

True, but Obama is doing a good job of convincing them or McCain is doing a bad job of talking them out of it otherwise the polls wouldn't look like they do. No?

Collier11
9/28/2008, 01:50 AM
The polls look like they do because Obama started out on top, it is JM's job to take control which he hasnt yet