Where is the Outrage?

[Blue]

The Party's Over

By Patrick J. Buchanan

19/09/08 "CS" -- - The Crash of 2008, which is now wiping out trillions of dollars of our people's wealth, is, like the Crash of 1929, likely to mark the end of one era and the onset of another.

The new era will see a more sober and much diminished America. The "Omnipower" and "Indispensable Nation" we heard about in all the hubris and braggadocio following our Cold War victory is history.

Seizing on the crisis, the left says we are witnessing the failure of market economics, a failure of conservatism.

This is nonsense. What we are witnessing is the collapse of Gordon Gecko ("Greed Is Good!") capitalism. What we are witnessing is what happens to a prodigal nation that ignores history, and forgets and abandons the philosophy and principles that made it great.

A true conservative cherishes prudence and believes in fiscal responsibility, balanced budgets and a self-reliant republic. He believes in saving for retirement and a rainy day, in deferred gratification, in not buying on credit what you cannot afford, in living within your means.

Is that really what got Wall Street and us into this mess — that we followed too religiously the gospel of Robert Taft and Russell Kirk?

"Government must save us!" cries the left, as ever. Yet, who got us into this mess if not the government — the Fed with its easy money, Bush with his profligate spending, and Congress and the SEC by liberating Wall Street and failing to step in and stop the drunken orgy?

For years, we Americans have spent more than we earned. We save nothing. Credit card debt, consumer debt, auto debt, mortgage debt, corporate debt — all are at record levels. And with pensions and savings being wiped out, much of that debt will never be repaid.

Our standard of living is inevitably going to fall. For foreigners will not forever buy our bonds or lend us more money if they rightly fear that they will be paid back, if at all, in cheaper dollars.

We are going to have to learn to live again without our means.

The party's over

Up through World War II, we followed the Hamiltonian idea that America must remain economically independent of the world in order to remain politically independent.

But this generation decided that was yesterday's bromide and we must march bravely forward into a Global Economy, where we all depend on one another. American companies morphed into "global companies" and moved plants and factories to Mexico, Asia, China and India, and we began buying more cheaply from abroad what we used to make at home: shoes, clothes, bikes, cars, radios, TVs, planes, computers.

As the trade deficits began inexorably to rise to 6 percent of GDP, we began vast borrowing from abroad to continue buying from abroad.

At home, propelled by tax cuts, war in Iraq and an explosion in social spending, surpluses vanished and deficits reappeared and began to rise. The dollar began to sink, and gold began to soar.

Yet, still, the promises of the politicians come. Barack Obama will give us national health insurance and tax cuts for all but that 2 percent of the nation that already carries 50 percent of the federal income tax load.

John McCain is going to cut taxes, expand the military, move NATO into Georgia and Ukraine, confront Russia and force Iran to stop enriching uranium or "bomb, bomb, bomb," with Joe Lieberman as wartime consigliere.

Who are we kidding?

What we are witnessing today is how empires end.

The Last Superpower is unable to defend its borders, protect its currency, win its wars or balance its budget. Medicare and Social Security are headed for the cliff with unfunded liabilities in the tens of trillions of dollars.

What we are witnessing today is nothing less than a Katrina-like failure of government, of our political class, and of democracy itself, casting a cloud over the viability and longevity of the system.

Notice who is managing the crisis. Not our elected leaders. Nancy Pelosi says she had nothing to do with it. Congress is paralyzed and heading home. President Bush is nowhere to be seen.

Hank Paulson of Goldman Sachs and Ben Bernanke of the Fed chose to bail out Bear Sterns but let Lehman go under. They decided to nationalize Fannie and Freddie at a cost to taxpayers of hundreds of billions, putting the U.S. government behind $5 trillion in mortgages. They decided to buy AIG with $85 billion rather than see the insurance giant sink beneath the waves.

An unelected financial elite is now entrusted with the assignment of getting us out of a disaster into which an unelected financial elite plunged the nation. We are just spectators.

What the Greatest Generation handed down to us — the richest, most powerful, most self-sufficient republic in history, with the highest standard of living any nation had ever achieved — the baby boomers, oblivious and self-indulgent to the end, have frittered away.

To find out more about Patrick Buchanan, and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate web page at www.creators.com.

[Okla-homey]

sobering indeed.

No matter how you slice it, the government teat is drying up. Continued nursing at it is counterproductive and will lead to ultimate ruin.

[King Crimson]

Pat Buchanan.

the greatest generation didn't hand "us" down the richest, most powerful self-sufficient republic...FDR was trying to turn us all into commies and nanny state teat suckers. that's what i've learned on this board.

[Okla-homey]

Pat Buchanan.

the greatest generation didn't hand "us" down the richest, most powerful self-sufficient republic...FDR was trying to turn us all into commies and nanny state teat suckers. that's what i've learned on this board.

Then your time has been well-spent.

[SoonerRedHead]

Where is the improvement since Pislosi, Reid, etc took over? Remember how they were gonna whip everything into shape right after they took over?

This financial crisis is directly attributable to putting individuals (redliners) in homes that should never ever been allowed the priviledge of owning a home. They were debtors when they bought, wrapped all that up into a home loan note, with zero interest, then went out and charged up their credit cards again once they were into "their" home.

And for the last three years the MSM has been telling everyone the economy sucks, so why not run out charge up ones credit cards, then bail on a home you couldn't afford in the first place?

Its the way our " new welfare system" works.

Except, with the MSM trying to help a socialist get elected by reporting how bad the economy is/was, it has backfired on them, and now many people are financially being hurt. It wasn't, but after a lie has been printed over & over, people start to believe it and the actions will follow.

The ones that are being hurt? The ones the dems say they want to help. The average joes and the little guys are the ones that are taking it in the shorts on this one.

Who is head of the finance committee?
Who lobbied for the lowering of standards for home ownership mortgages?

Dimocrats......read 'em and we are all weeping.:(

[King Crimson]

Then your time has been well-spent.

you didn't really get it, did you? you think you do, but you don't. it's kind of hard to have it both ways about the "greatest generation".

at least the massive contradictions and selective history in Buchanan's "thought" is charismatic in it's pretend "anti-establishmentism".

[Okla-homey]

you didn't really get it, did you? you think you do, but you don't. it's kind of hard to have it both ways about the "greatest generation".

at least the massive contradictions and selective history in Buchanan's "thought" is charismatic in it's pretend "anti-establishmentism".


No, I'm afraid you don't get it my friend. Churlish pontification doesn't really accomplish anything.

Now, I'm off to actually DO something about the problem by trying to help the poor and homeless of my community as is my regular monthly practice.

[King Crimson]

please. "churlish"....you're never afraid to miss what is true about yourself.

ooh, the Homey=practical action play, next you'll tell me how conservatives have solutions and liberals just talk. big deal.

will you tell the homeless about how you support the "noble lie"? because people need to be mislead (for their own benefit) in terms of the governance you claim to think is too large...small government, civil liberties (that you define). etc.

[StoopTroup]

I can't believe anyone from the GOP actually thinks Pelosi is responsible for any of this...

I don't even blame GWB for all of it.

I blame him for not being Pro-Active and keeping it from getting this bad.

There is no way that I think anyone in office has an agenda to crash the US Economy.

Arguing over the fix from here...

Well yes...we can start hammering the ones who aren't trying to help it recover and improve.

We are to strong of a Country to suddenly look like Russia after the Cold War.

[JohnnyMack]

sobering indeed.

No matter how you slice it, the government teat is drying up. Continued nursing at it is counterproductive and will lead to ultimate ruin.

It wasn't nursing at the government's teat that caused this, rather unchecked greed on the part of banks/corporations. For too long banks have been allowed to shove credit cards in college kids' faces with the promise of an easy lifestyle. They've shoved easy mortgages in the faces of a middle class that couldn't possibly afford them. And we as a nation became blinded by the greed and fell into a sleepy enchantment in which we allowed massive corporate greed to poison our realities and influence the politicians (on both sides) who made the rules easier for them to operate within. The blame is plenty thick to spread around, but I don't think anyone (outside of possibly you and Rush) is going to buy the notion that this problem was one born out of the forehead of your government. I can acknowledge that the government did make mistakes as it looked the other way, how about you try and accept that when you give these corporations the unchecked ability to **** people, that they will do it?

[JohnnyMack]

And how could you be anything but floored at the way McCain has handled this week?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/159883

At least I'm not the only one who noticed.

[StoopTroup]

It's all Greed.

Even before 911...the Guys running our Company who had these "Golden Parachute Clauses" all kept getting hammered about taking bonuses while running things into the ground. Each time things would perk up a bit...BONUS.

Long term success has disappeared due to the poison pills that these Board of Directors keep allowing to occur.

Stuff like...we have to have compensation or we won't be able to keep the folks who have worked so hard to run it into the ground. We'll never be able to replace them without these compensation packages.

It's all BS.

Same as a guy at McDonalds who starts out at the fryer...one day becomes Manager...there is usually someone at any Company who is up to the challenge and ready to take the job for much less.

Greed.

That's what it is...

[Penguin]

Economics is hard.

[jkjsooner]

Where is the improvement since Pislosi, Reid, etc took over? Remember how they were gonna whip everything into shape right after they took over?

This financial crisis is directly attributable to putting individuals (redliners) in homes that should never ever been allowed the priviledge of owning a home.

You just answered the question. This crisis didn't begin this month or even in the last year. It began years ago yet nobody (from either side) paid any attention.

Both parties are equally to blame. Bush, with his absolutely no regulation stance, set the stage for these problems. The democrats, championing higher home ownership rates (no matter how fundamentally unsound it was) is equally to blame.

In either case, Pelosi and Reid can do little to control it as it was allowed to reach historic proportions.

[lexsooner]

You just answered the question. This crisis didn't begin this month or even in the last year. It began years ago yet nobody (from either side) paid any attention.

Both parties are equally to blame. Bush, with his absolutely no regulation stance, set the stage for these problems. The democrats, championing higher home ownership rates (no matter how fundamentally unsound it was) is equally to blame.

In either case, Pelosi and Reid can do little to control it as it was allowed to reach historic proportions.

Concur. Can people just effin' agree this was all a bi-partisan effort involving Clinton, Bush, and both sides of Congress? It's the whole freakin system from these folks to the lobbyists, corporations, oversight agencies. And us the average Joes have to eat it once again while the fat cat executives walk away with millions. Plain disgusting, but also a familiar story.

[jkjsooner]

I have to call B.S. on much of what Buchanan said.



Seizing on the crisis, the left says we are witnessing the failure of market economics, a failure of conservatism.


Very few from the left say this. They say it's a failure of unregulated markets not a general failure of market economics. There is a subtle difference in the two but Buchanan characterizes it to equate moderates (pro capitalism with prudent regulation) with communists.



A true conservative cherishes prudence and believes in fiscal responsibility, balanced budgets and a self-reliant republic. He believes in saving for retirement and a rainy day, in deferred gratification, in not buying on credit what you cannot afford, in living within your means.


That's fine but how do you enforce Wall Street to be fiscally responsible? So you are fiscally responsible, have saved for a rainy day, etc. That will give you a nice buffer but it won't help a lot if we face Great Depression 2.

Buchanan is making a good case for regulatoin here even though he doesn't know it.



For years, we Americans have spent more than we earned. We save nothing. Credit card debt, consumer debt, auto debt, mortgage debt, corporate debt — all are at record levels. And with pensions and savings being wiped out, much of that debt will never be repaid.


And how do you protect the prudent from the non-prudent who have ruined our economy. How does the young family buy a house when the uncontrolled lending orgy took house prices way beyond any normal affordability standards?

[jkjsooner]

This financial crisis is directly attributable to putting individuals (redliners) in homes that should never ever been allowed the priviledge of owning a home. They were debtors when they bought, wrapped all that up into a home loan note, with zero interest, then went out and charged up their credit cards again once they were into "their" home.


I agree with much of what you say but you're only telling half of the story. We did not get into this mess because the government wanted more home ownership. Stupid lenders and investors got us into this problem on their own.

The government just didn't do anything about it until it was way too late. They stressed home ownership rates and all the bogus good things that came out of the real estate bubble. They didn't cause the problem but they sure as heck failed to control it.

And, by the way, I've heard a ton of speeches with Bush championing the home ownership rates among minorities. Do you think he's innocent here? Nope, he was living up the good times just as the liberals were.

[Okla-homey]

please. "churlish"....you're never afraid to miss what is true about yourself.

ooh, the Homey=practical action play, next you'll tell me how conservatives have solutions and liberals just talk. big deal.

will you tell the homeless about how you support the "noble lie"? because people need to be mislead (for their own benefit) in terms of the governance you claim to think is too large...small government, civil liberties (that you define). etc.


Whatever. All I know is this, today, I arranged for a thirty-something mother of three who has been living in her car for two weeks since her husband beat her to the point she had to go to the hospital, to get a divorce for free. Married twelve years, she has endured repeated beatings that got successively worse to the point this last one put her in the ER.

That divorce will include an order for hubby to pay child support which will make it possible for her to put a roof over those kids' heads and food in their stomachs. Private money. The gainfully employed wifebeaters money, combined with what she's now earning working 60 hrs a week as a checker at a big box store. That is a solution for four people who otherwise would become the responsibility of the taxpayer. Not pontification. No lie. "Noble" or otherwise.

[JohnnyMack]

Whatever. All I know is this, today, I arranged for a thirty-something mother of three who has been living in her car for two weeks since her husband beat her to the point she had to go to the hospital, to get a divorce for free. Married twelve years, she has endured repeated beatings that got successively worse to the point this last one put her in the ER.

That divorce will include an order for hubby to pay child support which will make it possible for her to put a roof over those kids' heads and food in their stomachs. Private money. The gainfully employed wifebeaters money, combined with what she's now earning working 60 hrs a week as a checker at a big box store. That is a solution for four people who otherwise would become the responsibility of the taxpayer. Not pontification. No lie. "Noble" or otherwise.

What exactly does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

[yermom]

how long have i been talking about this coming problem?

i don't know ****, but even i knew it was coming.

the blame is on the banks and congress IMO

people getting dumb loans on over-priced houses are to blame too, but they don't make the rules

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It doesn't. Unless Homey works in a clause in the divorce decree that makes Hubby McPieceofcrap give a hundred pounds of tea per month.

Good on you, Homester.

[soonerhubs]

So now what?

[StoopTroup]

It doesn't. Unless Homey works in a clause in the divorce decree that makes Hubby McPieceofcrap give a hundred pounds of tea per month.

Good on you, Homester.

lol.

[47straight]

What exactly does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


That many problems are often better solved by motivated citizens that the gub'mint? And ultimately nothing really gets done without individual effort by individual citizens? Maybe we have ourselves to blame for this credit crisis by living on credit too much?

[Okla-homey]

That many problems are often better solved by motivated citizens that the gub'mint? And ultimately nothing really gets done without individual effort by individual citizens? Maybe we have ourselves to blame for this credit crisis by living on credit too much?

BINGO! and more gubmint is not the answer to every social ill. When it's all said and done, individual accountability placed squarely in the lap of the citizenry is usually the best answer.

That, and libz who aren't willing to roll up their sleeves and actually invest some TIME to make their community better are just hypocrits of the worst sort.

[JohnnyMack]

BINGO! and more gubmint is not the answer to every social ill. When it's all said and done, individual accountability placed squarely in the lap of the citizenry is usually the best answer.

That, and libz who aren't willing to roll up their sleeves and actually invest some TIME to make their community better are just hypocrits of the worst sort.

So we should leave big business and wall street alone and let them do their thing. Until of course they **** the common man, drive up mass quantities of debt, threaten to crater causing massive job loss and need the government to once again absorb the debt they've created so they can skate into 2009 with shiny new balance sheets! Whee!!!

[47straight]

So we should leave big business and wall street alone and let them do their thing. Until of course they **** the common man, drive up mass quantities of debt, threaten to crater causing massive job loss and need the government to once again absorb the debt they've created so they can skate into 2009 with shiny new balance sheets! Whee!!!



Year: 2003
Topic: More regulation of Sallie Mae, Freddie Mac in the form of a government oversight office.
Source: Don't fuss, the New York Times.


''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''


Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.



''The regulator has not only been outmanned, it has been outlobbied,'' said Representative Richard H. Baker, the Louisiana Republican who has proposed legislation similar to the administration proposal and who leads a subcommittee that oversees the companies. ''Being underfunded does not explain how a glowing report of Freddie's operations was released only hours before the managerial upheaval that followed. This is not world-class regulatory work

[Vaevictis]

What exactly are you trying to imply?

Cause, if you're trying to imply what I think you're trying to imply...

Well, which party was it that controlled the White House, the House of Representatives and the Senate and 2003?

[47straight]

I'm trying to imply that some who say they're all for "more regulation" are absolutely full of it, and that as it turns out, the other thread stating that Democrats didn't want "more regulation" because it allowed poorer people to own homes (i.e. more votes) was more than a little correct, despite its SO detractors.

[Vaevictis]

I think you're making a mistake by taking their comments at face value.

Personally, I think they were in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's pocket. ;)

[yermom]

I'm trying to imply that some who say they're all for "more regulation" are absolutely full of it, and that as it turns out, the other thread stating that Democrats didn't want "more regulation" because it allowed poorer people to own homes (i.e. more votes) was more than a little correct, despite its SO detractors.


it's not a party thing. it's a congressional greed thing.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

california bureaucrats loved the spiraling home prices. a house selling for $700,000 generates for property tax than one selling for $350,000.

also slow growth Regulations, environmental regulation, and builder fees ad nauseum added to the cost and price of each new home.

[47straight]

it's not a party thing. it's a congressional greed thing.

It's an all-of-us greed thing. And as far as it being a party thing, one guy running for office now tried to curb part of the machination encouraging the greed back then because, as predicted, the program's excesses finally caught up to it. I don't agree with then pinning the problem on that same guy.

Is that non-partisan enough?

[Blue]

It's an all-of-us greed thing. And as far as it being a party thing, one guy running for office now tried to curb part of the machination encouraging the greed back then because, as predicted, the program's excesses finally caught up to it. I don't agree with then pinning the problem on that same guy.

Is that non-partisan enough?


You're into S&M? Why blame ourselves? 99.9% of the population doesn't have a finance degree. The scumbags in position were irresponsible because they knew exactly what they were doing. Therefore they are responsible.

[Blue]

Welcome to Communist America.

It's unbelievable to me what the American people will accept as long as the train arrives on time.

We deserve what we get.

[jkjsooner]

how long have i been talking about this coming problem?

i don't know ****, but even i knew it was coming.

the blame is on the banks and congress IMO

people getting dumb loans on over-priced houses are to blame too, but they don't make the rules


Yeah, I made a similar post about two years ago and only got a couple of responses. Guys like Robert Shiller have have warning us for six or seven years! People who paid attention and had a little common sense saw this coming a mile away. (I can't say I knew exactly what this would do to the overall economy as that's more complicated but most of us at least saw that problems were on the horizon.)

The politicians from both sides were either stupid or just blinded by the good times....

[Veritas]

You're into S&M? Why blame ourselves? 99.9% of the population doesn't have a finance degree. The scumbags in position were irresponsible because they knew exactly what they were doing. Therefore they are responsible.
Bull****. John Q Overextended is responsible, and he didn't need a finance degree, all he needed was to do the basic math he learned in elementary school.

John Q made 4K per month after taxes but decided to use an ARM to buy a $200K house. His mortgage payment with PMI was just under $2k, just about half his monthly take home.

Then interest rates and fuel prices went up. John Q, already saddled with his mortgage payment and the payment for his new Tahoe, has too much month left at the end of the money. So he defaults on his mortgage.

Whose fault is it that John Q didn't do elementary school math to see that he could only accommodate his debt obligations under the most ideal conditions?

Well, it's John Q's fault, primarily.

Of course, now, the gubmint is forcing those of us who manage their financial lives well enough to have a high enough AGI to actually pay more than a modicum of taxes to cover John Q's inability to perform simple division and subtraction.

It is NOT a Republican problem and it is NOT a Democrat problem. It's not a situation created by government and it's not a problem that will be cured by government.

It's a problem that is only solved when the consumer, Mack's "common man," has to take personal responsibility for his poor financial choices. We do our future no favors by continuing to forgive stupidity by creating a safety net with the tax dollars of the responsible.

[soonerscuba]

That, and libz who aren't willing to roll up their sleeves and actually invest some TIME to make their community better are just hypocrits of the worst sort.
Ironic considering the people plastered all over your posts spent a week derogating and belittling the very practice.

[Vaevictis]

John Q doesn't need a finance degree to budget properly. People have been doing so since before finance degrees existed.

It's not very hard. Figure out what your income is. Figure out what your payment is going to be. If your rate is variable, use some algebra and graph what your payment is going to look like over r=[0,0.25]. Can you afford all of those? Then proceed. Otherwise, stop.

As far as the banks failing because they were forced to loan to sub-prime applicants, that's bunk. Take a look at the mortgage application process over the past 8 years or so. They were loaning to anyone who could put pen to paper, irrespective of minority status or where they were purchasing the house.

It had nothing to do with regulation forcing them to be fiscally irresponsible. It had everything to do with greed incentivizing them to be fiscally irresponsible. When you can sign someone and immediately turn around and sell the contract to someone else, the risk of non-payment doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot to you.

The government doesn't make you buy assets and lever up 30, 40, 50 to 1.

[Okla-homey]

Ironic considering the people plastered all over your posts spent a week derogating and belittling the very practice.

rabble rousing is one thing. helping people is another.

[soonerscuba]

rabble rousing is one thing. helping people is another.
You consider quadrupling budget and staff for Catholic parishes, providing job training and tutoring to be rabble rousing?

I'm not suggesting that these things qualify Obama to be president, I just found dumping on these things by the RNC to be highly unsavory. Thanks for your community service, I just wish you would recognize that charity splits party lines.

[StoopTroup]

how long have i been talking about this coming problem?

i don't know ****, but even i knew it was coming.


I was waiting for you to make your move and then jump on the bandwagon. :D

[StoopTroup]

Yeah, I made a similar post about two years ago and only got a couple of responses. Guys like Robert Shiller have have warning us for six or seven years! People who paid attention and had a little common sense saw this coming a mile away. (I can't say I knew exactly what this would do to the overall economy as that's more complicated but most of us at least saw that problems were on the horizon.)

The politicians from both sides were either stupid or just blinded by the good times....

No one listens to Chicken Little.

We were all warned about the Big Bad Wolf too and he crashed some planes into the WTC.

Our Country is more full of finger pointers than doers anymore.

Being a doer doesn't make you any money or make you popular so most folks don't do it. I have also seen folks get involved who thought they were doers who later didn't understand why nobody recognized their doing something and got mad and quit.

Do it for the sake of being a doer...

Be glad you aren't the one needing the help.

Don't wait for the TV cameras to get there either...they probably aren't coming unless someone in your family is a cameraman. :D ;)

Not attacking either...jus sayin'

[JohnnyMack]

Bull****. John Q Overextended is responsible, and he didn't need a finance degree, all he needed was to do the basic math he learned in elementary school.

John Q made 4K per month after taxes but decided to use an ARM to buy a $200K house. His mortgage payment with PMI was just under $2k, just about half his monthly take home.

Then interest rates and fuel prices went up. John Q, already saddled with his mortgage payment and the payment for his new Tahoe, has too much month left at the end of the money. So he defaults on his mortgage.

Whose fault is it that John Q didn't do elementary school math to see that he could only accommodate his debt obligations under the most ideal conditions?

Well, it's John Q's fault, primarily.

Of course, now, the gubmint is forcing those of us who manage their financial lives well enough to have a high enough AGI to actually pay more than a modicum of taxes to cover John Q's inability to perform simple division and subtraction.

It is NOT a Republican problem and it is NOT a Democrat problem. It's not a situation created by government and it's not a problem that will be cured by government.

It's a problem that is only solved when the consumer, Mack's "common man," has to take personal responsibility for his poor financial choices. We do our future no favors by continuing to forgive stupidity by creating a safety net with the tax dollars of the responsible.

The common man like you and I, the one who goes to work, makes his single house payment each month and tried to keep himself in his wife's good graces isn't the issue. How many mortgage defaults have led to an individual losing his or her primary residence? How many were flips and or speculative purchases? How much of the debt was rolled into a bigger ponzi scheme that was passed on from buyer to lender to lender to hedge fund managers, etc.? I don't know the statistics but I'd be the majority of the loss we're talking about here grew from a corrupt system that did a **** poor job of managing itself. I do not believe that this would have happened with proper regulation.

[C&CDean]

The common man like you and I, the one who goes to work, makes his single house payment each month and tried to keep himself in his wife's good graces isn't the issue. How many mortgage defaults have led to an individual losing his or her primary residence? How many were flips and or speculative purchases? How much of the debt was rolled into a bigger ponzi scheme that was passed on from buyer to lender to lender to hedge fund managers, etc.? I don't know the statistics but I'd be the majority of the loss we're talking about here grew from a corrupt system that did a **** poor job of managing itself. I do not believe that this would have happened with proper regulation.

It still goes back to simple self control JM. The people who got themselves into the financial holes are the people who've been calling me a dumbass for saving my cash and only investing it in the property/cattle/equipment/commodities that I can directly control. They've called me a dumbass for not throwing it over to them to invest in all kinds of stupid stock market related schemes.

Every single person is responsible for their own actions. This is where the left and right divide. You think the government should save us from our own stupidity. I think if you're stupid, you should pay for it, not me.

[JohnnyMack]

It still goes back to simple self control JM. The people who got themselves into the financial holes are the people who've been calling me a dumbass for saving my cash and only investing it in the property/cattle/equipment/commodities that I can directly control. They've called me a dumbass for not throwing it over to them to invest in all kinds of stupid stock market related schemes.

Every single person is responsible for their own actions. This is where the left and right divide. You think the government should save us from our own stupidity. I think if you're stupid, you should pay for it, not me.

Again I think if this was simply a matter of people making poor decisions that led to them losing their homes I would agree. But this is bigger than a super small percentage of the population losing their homes. This was a ponzi scheme of epic proportions. I'm not thinking Paulson, Bernanke et al would be scrambling the way they are if this wasn't much more far reaching than homeowners making bad choices.

[C&CDean]

Again I think if this was simply a matter of people making poor decisions that led to them losing their homes I would agree. But this is bigger than a super small percentage of the population losing their homes. This was a ponzi scheme of epic proportions. I'm not thinking Paulson, Bernanke et al would be scrambling the way they are if this wasn't much more far reaching than homeowners making bad choices.

Dude, people are dumb. They make poor choice every day. Look how many crackheads, tweakers, potheads, drunken mistakes there are out there. Somebody makes the **** available, and stupid people partake - to excess. Same thing with $$. The "pusher man" makes easy credit available to people who can't afford it, and the dumbasses hit the crackpipe like there's never gonna be a tomorrow. Same concept. And I don't even know what the **** a "ponzi scheme" is.

[JohnnyMack]

And I don't even know what the **** a "ponzi scheme" is.

http://www.solobuonenotizie.it/public/news/grandi/sbn-fonzie.jpg

[C&CDean]

Heh.

[badger]

Oh well, as long as I'm here... :D

Foolish Baby Boomer generation... pay off your credit card debt?! Why pay off your credit card debt when you can default on it and another company will give you another free t-shirt/new credit card? You silly middle agers with your three jobs trying to pay off debt :D

..hey wait a sec... ARE YOU SPENDING MY INHERITANCE :confused: Why are you retiring when you're 50? Do you have money in your bank account that I'm not aware of? WHY am I paying for all of my college tuition, then? :mad: Argggg, I've been living on ramen and tang FAR TOO LONG! I'm getting out of this cheap-o apartment and living with you!

... hey, more than basic cable... free laundry... free food! You know, there's really no reason for me to go seek more than a part time job, but I'm just going to go out all night with my friends and come back when I feel like it... and NO, I'm NOT babysitting my younger brother and sister and NO, I can't take them to school tomorrow morning. That's like, WAY too early for me.

... excuse me, why are my things getting packed in those boxes? Hey, I live here too! ...you're moving to Utah. Wow... you didn't consult me first? Uber lame. Uber, uber lame.

[Vaevictis]

Every single person is responsible for their own actions. This is where the left and right divide. You think the government should save us from our own stupidity. I think if you're stupid, you should pay for it, not me.

I think it would be nice if the government would limit the impact of everyone else's stupidity on me, too. Which is essentially what is going on wrt the bailouts.

I also don't want the government to save people from their own stupidity for the sake of saving them; I just don't want people to be in such a deep hole that they feel that the only way out is to go outside the bounds of the law. A little bit of suffering, okay. But there has to be a way out.